01:37 FROGGS joined 03:12 lizmat_ joined 05:06 benabik joined 06:57 woolfy1 joined 08:08 ssutch joined 08:32 woolfy1 left 09:04 FROGGS[mobile] joined 09:34 lizmat joined 10:47 tgt joined 11:43 eternaleye joined 13:09 Guest1337 joined
jnthn We're now up to the BEGIN at 13,861, I think. 13:53
nwc10 gosh 13:55
how did that happen?
jnthn nwc10: Writing code. 13:57
nwc10 I assumed this, but I thought that dalek usually grassed up people who were guilty of that :-) 13:58
jnthn See last few on #perl6 from me :)
nwc10 but this impleis that you figured out how to do store?
ah yes. I was out to lunch
diakopter jnthn: that's positively amazing. 14:44
jnthn diakopter: 14,099 now 14:47
moritz and the setting is only about 17k lines 15:05
jnthn yeah, the one I'm compiling is just short of 17k.
diakopter :) 15:06
nwc10 Cannot find method 'key' at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2838 (blib/Perl6/Metamodel.moarvm:add_enum_value:17) 15:07
etc
at "Implement p6parcel."
FROGGS yes, that is it
dalek arVM: a48b0d7 | jonathan++ | src/core/interp.c:
Missing use of MVM_ASSIGN_REF.
 15:21
arVM: ab6d015 | jonathan++ | src/core/coerce.c:
Being unboxable to string should beat Str method.
 16:16
jnthn That patch fixes the one enum issue 16:22
timotimo the one of how many? :) 16:23
jnthn the one I know about :)
s/one// :)
FROGGS jnthn++ 16:24
timotimo "the I know about"?
jnthn :P
Well, we make it past the enum, so seems that is the only one. :)
Unfortunately, seems we crash and burn a whlie later 16:25
timotimo you weren't expecting to make it through the whole setting now, were you? :)
jnthn No, just hoped for a nicer failure mode... 16:28
FROGGS Type check failed in bind; expected Mu but got BOOTHash 16:30
I'd guess we are at line 16434 16:32
err yes 16:33
the backtrace even says so :o)
16435 actually
timotimo a good step forwards, i'm proud of you:) 16:34
FROGGS so, it doesn't treat the Mu trait special in: my Mu $methodcall := nqp::hash('prec', 'y='); 16:35
jnthn oh, I don't get that far it seems... 16:38
FROGGS :/ 16:40
nwc10 Type check failed in bind; expected Mu but got BOOTHash at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:155 (blib/Perl6/Ops.moarvm:bind_error:42) 16:44
FROGGS yeah, seems differently to behave differently on jnthn's box 16:45
jnthn yeah, some odd exit code nad no backtrace
Running under debugger now 16:46
nwc10 starts it under valgrind
fetch a beer. Heck, fetch 2.
mmm, not sure if my gcc is new enough to build with -Og
that might reduce it to 1 beer.
will try later
FROGGS hehe
jnthn
.oO( -Obeer )
 16:47
oooh 16:48
I get a buffer overrun
nwc10 is that like where one pours too fast, and the head overflows the top of the glass? 16:49
or is it the gotcha where the waitor brings you an open bottle and a glass, but the capacity of the glass is smaller than that of the bottle, and you don't spot this in advance 16:50
jnthn More like the second 16:51
Apparently, sprintf(buf, "%-15f", n) might use more than 21 chars...
nwc10 (in particuarly evil realities, the glass has the brand of the beer bottle on it, to lull you into a false sense of security)
you don't say!
jnthn wonders how 21 got picked...
nwc10 at random? ie rand()/2 on MoarVM a month or two ago 16:52
jnthn OK, so...what *should* it be? :) 16:53
nwc10 snprintf
jnthn right, how portable is this? :)
nwc10 I think "most places by now", but I can't remember for sure
in the short term, it's probably better to use it, and fix it with a portability wrapper once you hit a platform which doesn't have it 16:55
but that's an off-the-cuff suggestion - I've not tried to work out what platform(s) would break
jnthn unresolved external symbol snprintf
nwc10 and I'm not sure how hard a wrapper would be, given that it would need to deal with variable arguments.
jnthn bah
nwc10 bah. Fail
found a platform already :-(
jnthn Yeah. MSVC 16:57
I know the workaround though :)
(VS debugger)++ for finding the problem, though :)
jnthn has killed every sprintf :) 16:58
dalek arVM: 4e65678 | jonathan++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Fix overruns; avoid sprintf.
 17:06
jnthn Confirm I'm now up to 16436 too now
FROGGS cool! 17:07
:o)
jnthn OK, got past there but we seem to have an undeclared variable... 17:17
Probably in terms or so
ah, $VM 17:19
FROGGS yes
seen it too right now
jnthn wonders if there'll be more
That does mean we're probably around 16,581 17:20
FROGGS jnthn: there will be a syntax error at line 145 btw
about $EXECUTABLE_NAME 17:21
jnthn fixing 17:22
OK, fixed those. We parse the whole thing now. 17:27
nwc10 awesome!
jnthn And then fail right at the end in CHECK time by thinking some stub didn't get implemented
nwc10 which implies that we can run all the BEGIN blocks? (Or at least, fake running them) 17:28
b.t.w., you have just moved the goalposts.
I've not finished building the previous commit :-)
timotimo nice! 17:30
"thinking some stub didn't get implemented" sounds like it did get implemented but it failed to pick it up?
jnthn nwc10: We actually run them 17:33
timotimo: I'm not sure
It's about dinner here but if somebody wants to check something... 17:34
...make sure that we aren't missing some files from what we put in core.setting 17:35
It may be a legit error
ah, I see why the error reporting is broken 17:40
our iteration handling does not handle native arrays on Moar yet
So, just an NYI
But food looks more exciting than writing C... :) 17:41
FROGGS enjoy it :o)
I get "MVMArray: atpos expected string register" 17:45
that does not seem to fit
nwc10 [A[BMVMArray: atpos expected string register at src/Perl6/World.nqp:2463 (blib/Perl6/World.moarvm:frame_name_684:37) 17:46
MVMArray: atpos expected string register at src/Perl6/World.nqp:2463 (blib/Perl6/World.moarvm:frame_name_684:37)
notwork
(our local notowrk)
FROGGS ohh, it indeed fits: "blib/Perl6/World.moarvm:assert_stubs_defined:46" 17:50
TimToady \o/ for the parse pass PASS 17:51
FROGGS :o) 17:52
in five minutes I should know what type is not composed
nwc10 FROGGS: "it indeeds fits" - related to what I pasted? 18:00
oh, yes, we both see the same thing
FROGGS nwc10: to what we both pasted
ha! 18:02
my fault! :o)
Stage parse : 469.534 18:19
Stage syntaxcheck: 0.000
Stage ast : 0.000
Bytecode validation error at offset 254, instruction 35:
extension op 'p6trialbind' not registered
\o/
nwc10 you're trying to confuse jnthn by making progress while he's not looking? :-) 18:20
18:21 benabik joined
FROGGS hehe, I guess he'd actually like that :o) 18:22
but no, just that single fix
jnthn ooh, wow :) 18:27
going to social now
Do rink the beer
uh, to drink...
...looks like I need it :P
&
nwc10 have the appropriate amount of fun
FROGGS[mobile] I think I am trying to implement p6trialbind later... it seems almost doable 18:40
diakopter FROGGS[mobile]: on your mobile? yeah! :D 18:41
timotimo he's a 10x 18:43
means he only needs ~10 keys
FROGGS[mobile] diakopter: on a BlackBerry (tm)? No chance 18:46
18:58 lizmat joined 18:59 rurban1 joined
rurban1 have you checked lwn.net/Articles/573424/ urcu? 19:00
19:01 woolfy joined
diakopter rurban1: okay, but it's lgpl, and linux only 19:17
19:59 tgt joined
FROGGS ohh noes, I won't attack p6trialbind 20:06
Binder.trialBind is just way to heavy for me 20:07
20:52 tgt joined 20:58 |newbie| joined
|newbie| hi all 20:58
20:58 jaffa4 joined
jaffa4 hi all 20:59
what is the state of moarvm? 21:00
nwc10 I think I'm right in saying
nqp supports moarvm on master
today jnthn got rakudo passing the complete setting 21:01
(which is about 17000 lines, and contains a lot of BEGIN blocks, which means that moarvm is running all the code in those BEGIN blocks) 21:02
so, progressing.
|newbie| what does it mean that nqp supports moarvm? 21:03
nwc10 nqp passes all its own tests on moarvm
TimToady it means you can use the nqp language, executed only by the moarvm backend 21:04
nwc10 and there isn't a special "we're working on it" MoarVM branch
or maybe TimToady's answer is better
jaffa4 SO does it mean perl6 compiler runs on moarvm?
TimToady tries to give the user-centric view, not the developer-centric view, is all
jaffa4 that is good very good.. user centric view please 21:05
TimToady it means the parser runs well enough to parse the setting
jaffa4 "the setting"? what is the settings? 21:06
TimToady some other languages call it a prelude, but we think of it as surrounding the user's program; it's the code that defines most of what Perl 6 looks like 21:07
the parts of Perl 6 that are defined in Perl 6
jaffa4 In short, some part of the perl6 compiler can be translated into moarvm but not all.., right? 21:08
TimToady notionally we treat it as a lexical scope outside the user's program file
that's a good approximation of the truth 21:09
we can parse it all currently, but there are bits that don't translate yet 21:10
after we get those bits done, the next step is to translate the bits of Perl 6 that aren't used by the compiler itself
but that are specced and have tests
jaffa4 so it has gone slower than expected 21:11
TimToady nope, faster
the only reason it appears slow is that's it's being done with part-time labor
but when they get a chance to work on it, it goes very fast
jaffa4 I am trying to recall what was said in the Perl conference. 21:12
TimToady for instance, on the day jnthn++ was expecting to parse 1000 more lines, he ended up parsing 9000 more lines
jaffa4 ok
Are you programming too in this project? 21:13
TimToady what was said at the conference by diakopter++ was not an official prediction, just what he himself suspected would be the case
21:13 |newbie| left
TimToady only a little 21:13
most of my programming the last couple years has been to write rosettacode.org entries to see how Perl 6 works on real problems 21:14
and then tweak the specs so it works better :)
fsdo "real" 21:15
jaffa4 O see
what is fsdo? 21:16
FROGGS for some definition of
TimToady we don't like arguing past each other here, so we frequently admit that our definitions may differ :) 21:17
jaffa4 it is pity you do not like arguing..arguing can be fun. 21:18
moritz arguing != arguing past each other
FROGGS I think most ppl here like a good discussion about an interesting topic 21:19
jaffa4 some people afraid of losing...
TimToady we don't like it when people enjoy arguing so much that they don't care if they're arguing past each other 21:20
we prefer constructive arguments
jaffa4 understandable.
TimToady we're not afraid of losing if we're wrong; we'd rather be corrected :)
fsdo "wrong" 21:21
FROGGS hehe
moritz see also: discussion between masak++ and me in #perl6 on Liskov and upcasting earlier today
FROGGS your are "right" 21:22
jaffa4 somebody told me he considers perl6 an academic project., Do you agree?
TimToady but far too many people define "wrong" as "different from my un-thought-through opinion" :)
FROGGS jaffa4: no
jaffa4: it is intended to be used
TimToady academic projects don't last 13 years, or you lose tenure
most academic projects are reductionist in that you hold everything fixed except one idea, and then see how far you can drive that idea into the ground 21:23
we're trying to drive all our ideas into the ground simultaneously :) 21:24
so it's a more holistic approach than an academician can afford to take
jaffa4: all that being said, I believe whoever it was you heard using the word "academic" was meaning a definition that was intended to be insulting :) 21:25
jaffa4 yes, he is an active Perl 5 module contributor
yes, you are right , that was bit a praise 21:26
TimToady we are more concerned with what future Perl 6 programmers will think than with what past Perl 5 programmers have thought :)
jaffa4 it was not a praise... 21:27
TimToady I see what you did :)
jaffa4 As far as I can see there is a lot of languages.. new languages appear every year... What will people make choose Perl6 out of crowd, out of immense internet ? 21:32
TimToady other people telling them that Perl 6 doesn't have *this* problem, or *that* problem, so they should try it 21:34
people comparing solutions on rosettacode and liking the clarity of the Perl 6 solutions
people who start companies based on Perl 6, and hiring other people to program in it :)
having a culture that more fun than other programming cultures 21:35
there's no single answer
all we can do is make it the language we would prefer to use, and hope other people notice that they're like us 21:36
long term, don't get dragged down by technical debt, as has happened to every popular language 21:37
jaffa4 What about an aggressive advertisement campaign?
TimToady we don't want to lie :)
however, telling the truth about Perl 6 is fine :) 21:38
FROGGS I'd wait for it becoming *awesomely fast* before advertising it
TimToady that's the main thing we're waiting on
"avoid success at all costs" is the mode we're still in 21:39
jaffa4 that is wise 21:40
FROGGS right, just let us make in an awesome language, even if it is just for us then :o)
TimToady we'll definitely start hyping it when it's better that most of its competitors for everyday use
FROGGS yeah
TimToady but until then, it's still underpromise and overdeliver
so the promise has never been much stronger than "someday"--but that someday gets a day closer every day 21:42
jaffa4 ok..bye 21:45
diakopter .. 22:01
is it safe to come out?
TimToady fsdo "safe" 22:02
asteroids are slightly less likely in the afternoon than in the morning 22:03
but they're more likely in the autumn than in the spring 22:04
well, at least away from the equator 22:05
the risk also drops slightly when the moon is out in front of the earth in our direction of motion :) 22:09
well, unless the moon increases the risk through focussing effects... 22:10
that one is difficult to reason out 22:11

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