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MasterDuke timotimo: what, at the nqp or rakudo level, causes MVM_serialization_read_int to be called? 01:49
timotimo mostly the individual deserialize functions of each repr
but deserialization of "the whole thing" also uses it a couple of times
like "how many objects are in this serialized blob?" -> serialization_read_int
MasterDuke i happened to notice it's one of the top functions in a perf record of ./perl6-m -e '' 01:50
timotimo right 01:51
it'd be a lot better if our NFAs wouldn't store their entire contents twice 01:52
MasterDuke heh. redundancy is good. a RAID of the NFAs would be even safer!
timotimo well, it is kind of sort of RAID 01:53
i'd love it if TimToady could figure out how to clean out the states list before serializing and re-building it when it's needed after deserialization 01:54
i'm imagining the win would be noticable
i wonder, did i merge the nfatostatelist branch?
nfa_to_statelist in moarvm
nope, i didn't 01:55
MasterDuke timotimo: hm, no simple way to reduce the # of calls? (like making variables ints reduced smrt_numify calls) 02:23
timotimo nah, except for the nfa thing i can't think of anything simple 02:25
one thing is that we have "lazy deserialization"
i.e. things are only pulled out of the serialized blob when something requests them
look for functions with "demand" in their name 02:26
if we could make more classes and functions and such be "touched" during startup, the number of calls for all _serialization_ functions has a chance to fall
MasterDuke touching things reduces the calls? wouldn't it mean more things do deserialize? 02:28
*to
timotimo no, touching less things 02:33
i mistakened 02:34
i tireded
MasterDuke heh, so touching (using?) fewer classes/functions/etc during startup would reduce the number of calls? 02:37
timotimo aye
MasterDuke hm, any easy way to see what does get touched/used? 02:38
timotimo i built something at one point
need to look if it still exists 02:39
seems like it's gone 02:40
anyway
you can output the sc idx for the objects that get demanded (together with the ID of the SC itself) 02:41
just spew it to stdout, for example
MasterDuke in MVM_serialization_demand_object perhaps?
timotimo then from a perl6 script you can nqp::wval to get the object from the serialized heap
and ask it what it is, with .HOW.name and such 02:42
need to put lots of "try" all over the place, because things can fail magically :P 02:46
yes, that's one place to put it
should also be able to get the filename, line, and frame name for frames that get demanded
directly in the C i mean
MasterDuke from the MVMSerializationContext?
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samcv timotimo, cmph seems nice 02:53
timotimo i haven't looked into it more than the first few paragraphs on their site
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samcv timotimo, i made a github repo with the code since they have no git github.com/samcv/cmph 02:55
one says it takes 2 bytes per key. that's pretty low 02:56
idk tho if we have a huge number of cp
but it won't hurt memory if we only load it on demand
timotimo i'm pretty sure it's supposed to land in the text segment, actually
i.e. shared between processes and such
samcv well you can load it from a file 02:57
the hash
timotimo that's a recipe for desaster
that file has to be installed somewhere, and reliably found, and all that 02:58
samcv :( 02:59
timotimo not to mention that a user program can panic in the middle of running when that file doesn't get found and lazily loaded
samcv we can check the file exists before running? 03:00
timotimo well, sure, but then programs that don't need unicode lookups will refuse to start
samcv uh maybe install moarvm? 03:01
and not delete the file? idk
timotimo why wouldn't you want it to be put into the text segment?
samcv because it takes memory yes?
timotimo sure
putting it into the text segment makes it zero-overhead for loading 03:02
currently we create a hash with uthash at startup, right?
if we have the hash in a file we just need to mmap it, and mmapping it shared and readonly will also give us the shared-between-processes benefit
samcv no only when needed
timotimo i was missing that piece of information
samcv sorry 03:03
timotimo how big will the perfect minimal hash be for all codepoint names?
samcv i dunno
timotimo can we just run the tool over our dataset?
samcv yeah
TimToady suspects it will have exponential characteristics 03:05
timotimo oh, if we fail at loading the hash file we can just create the hash during runtime because we still have the list of all codepoint names in our program anyway 03:06
samcv sure
timotimo hmm. i don't feel comfortable making that call 03:07
samcv that's weird tho
timotimo what is?
samcv i mean i guess we could do it. 03:08
timotimo if we want to go the other direction, we could also build the hash table only up to the entry that we were looking for and when we request another name that isn't in the hash currently we just continue where we last stopped 03:13
we could also have a table of "first character of name" to "position of first name that starts with that in the table" 03:14
OSLT
so we don't have to go from 0 to 10000 to find that rare codepoint starting with Z
(again, collecting data about this would be interesting to gauge whether this is useless or not) 03:15
but also: that stuff needs locks and everything 03:16
samcv yeah 03:18
dinner brb
timotimo sleep bbl :)
samcv wonder how this would compare github.com/powturbo/TurboPFor/blob.../README.md 04:03
to having all those if else statements for getting offsets for unicode codepoint properties
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brrt good * #moarvm 07:08
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brrt .tell timotimo that get_label_for_obj is the mechanism I've used to assign a label to data objects (to pointers, really) 07:18
yoleaux2 brrt: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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samcv keeping checking this thing out github.com/powturbo/TurboPFor/blob.../README.md it does seem great 08:47
need to figure out the best encoding though
at least seems to make it easy to bench things
dunno if this stuff builds on MSVC tho 08:49
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samcv i think it's time for bed for me. night guys 09:01
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patrickz Hi everyone! How does one typically use gdb with moarvom? I'd like to break in the file MVMArray.c:344 but a simple 'b MVMArray.c:344' does not work. 11:27
jnthn Quite often using the perl6-gdb-m script
arnsholt Ther perl6/nqp files are actually shell scripts 11:28
patrickz already did that...
jnthn OK, and built with debug symbols?
(--debug=3 to MoarVM's Configure.pl)
patrickz that script complains if there are none as far as I read id
*it
didn't complain for me
jnthn Ah, then that's why :)
patrickz ah
rakudobrew doesn't do that by default, right?
jnthn No 11:29
Well, MoarVM's configure doesn't do it by default
patrickz kthx, will rebuild
jnthn You only need rebuild MoarVM itself
Though dunno how feasible that is if rakudobrew "owns" the build
jnthn never used rakudobrew :) 11:30
patrickz rakudobrew creates pretty normal builds in ~/.rakudobrew/moar-whatever/. One can even build a rakudo oneself and just link the folder in there to make it work with rakudobrew. :-) 11:31
it's working :-) 11:44
jnthn :)
brrt i usually also make variants for the nqp scripts 11:47
and there is a lingering thought in the community to make 'all-in-one' binaries using MoarVM 11:48
as far as i can tell, it shouldn't be too hard, but it's just never been done 11:49
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timotimo it's been tried multiple times :) 13:00
yoleaux2 07:18Z <brrt> timotimo: that get_label_for_obj is the mechanism I've used to assign a label to data objects (to pointers, really)
timotimo at least if you mean "binaries that also include a bunch of moarvm bytecode files"
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brrt yeah, that's pretty much what i mean 13:17
what made it fail?
timotimo the core setting's at fault 13:18
or something like that
you get a rather mysterious error when trying to use it somewhere in the compilation stage
brrt hmmm 13:24
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timotimo i'm considering building a nqp::vmhealth op that gives a hash of tidbits of information 14:07
and i was wondering if we can have an API where we call a user-supplied function whenever a GC has run with a bunch of data. like, on the event loop thread
jnthn Finalization does that 14:08
timotimo ah, neat
jnthn Heh
timotimo is looking into building a Prometheus client library
jnthn You could abuse that somewhat by just creating an throw-away object :)
*a 14:09
timotimo and having information about GC/memory behaviour and similar things would be interesting to have in every moar process
jnthn For the sake of the finalier
And then making a new one when it runs :P
But that's a total hack :)
timotimo what, DESTROY { data.new(...) }? :P
jnthn yeah :P
timotimo well, i want the data to come from inside the VM, and i don't think DESTROY takes arguments ;) 14:10
well, it probably "takes" the invocant
so ... i guess you could register the class that has that DESTROY to be "the thing that has to be created when a GC ran"?
jnthn Yeah, but this is a real hack, I'd not advise it :) 14:11
timotimo and it just creates the object at the very end and immediately calls its finalizer
jnthn I'd do it in some cleaner way
timotimo yes, i was hoping for a cleaner way, too
but just considering this is kind of amusing
er
jnthn Like generalizing the post-GC hook that is used to run finalizers
timotimo (just considering this) (is kind of amusing)
rather than (just) ((considering this) is kind of amusing)
hmpf. the issue about invmod (and thusly expmod) didn't get an answer in the last 7 days on libtom's tommath github issue tracker 14:15
when will we free up the earliest deprecated moarvm ops for re-use? 14:16
graphs_s "will be deprecated" since 2016-01-12, DEPRECATED_1 since 2016-11-16 14:18
okay they haven't been deprecated for terribly long 14:19
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timotimo and DEPRECATED_2 was also just 2017-01-06 14:21
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timotimo jnthn: the "run code after GC has finished" thing could be a good hook to install the "dump heap snapshot to disk" thing as well, eh? 14:33
Geth MoarVM: dogbert17++ created pull request #531:
Fix overflow on 32 bit systems in is_full_collection()
jnthn Not really because that in itself could trigger GC 14:34
And render the results useless
timotimo oh, that's true
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lucasb opcode prof_exit doesn't have an ".s" annotation. is it needed? 16:05
github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/mast...plist#L919
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timotimo no, the exit op is called from user code, i think 16:12
oh no 16:13
that's startprofile and endprofile
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timotimo huh, i thought the threads were like a linked list, but i don't see a "next" pointer 16:26
there it is! 16:28
it's not MVMThreadContext, it's MVMThread obects
objects*
i think the comment in MVMThread.h for the next pointer is wrong: 16:29
is "next in tc's threads list." 16:30
should probably be "next in instance's threads list."
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samcv so that seems to get 30% compression compressing integers from 0-20,000 on the fastest compression, so that's good i guess. but not better than i guess doing it yourself. but good to note 19:29
talking about this btw: github.com/powturbo/TurboPFor 19:30
have not yet tried on my actual set of data since our data isn't random 19:31
will see what happens when i go back to making a huge list of cp's to bitfield rows 19:34
Geth MoarVM: 18df52c1d4 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | src/gc/orchestrate.c
Fix overflow on 32 bit systems in is_full_collection()

In order to figure out whether a full GC should be made the code has logic which calculates the percentage of 'promoted' bytes as part of the resident set size. If the calculated percentage is equal to or larger than MVM_GC_GEN2_THRESHOLD_PERCENT a full collection will be made. However, the code which calculate the percent_growth does ... (10 more lines)		 20:07
MoarVM: 0157007402 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/gc/orchestrate.c
Merge pull request #531 from dogbert17/master

Fix overflow on 32 bit systems in is_full_collection()
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samcv dogbert11++ 20:09
timotimo samcv: were you thinking of compressing the integers that we create with our base40 scheme? 20:22
samcv i had not yet. but that may be fun 20:25
even if it's just to see what happens
timotimo mhm 20:26
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samcv let me try that now 20:29
since it's a lot simpler than doing the point indexes since i already replaced the old code mostly
it may be able to compress a lot, since if it only stores the difference between each 16 bit number that could save a lot 20:32
and variable bit integers as well 20:33
one of them got 50% compression timotimo 20:36
so that's like what, 200KB instead of 1.7MB for storing all the names or whatever 20:37
er wait hmm or maybe it's 400K. idk it said the final size was 401188 but ratio is 50.2%
bits per int was 16.06 so actually that didn't compress it at all XD 20:38
Geth MoarVM/even-moar-jit: 36 commits pushed by (Samantha McVey)++, (Jonathan Worthington)++, (Timo Paulssen)++, (Daniel Green)++, (Bart Wiegmans)++, (Lucas Buchala)++, (Zoffix Znet)++, (Benny Siegert)++, niner++
review: github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/compare/b...3065b2a47b
samcv maybe not supplying the correct options
timotimo hmm 20:40
lots of it is probably tuning, yeah
samcv maybe gotta specify the int size i think it defaults to 32 bit 20:41
-f[X[c][H]][.d][s] X = file format:
[1=int8], [2=int16], [4=int32(default)], [f:float] [d:double]
t = text:one integer per line, c=column number in multiple columns line
c = text:integers separated by non digit char
. = decimal digits (default 2)
H = skip first line
s = sorted (increasing), S=sorted (strictly increasing, no duplicates), z=ZigZag
why they gotta make this confusing
maybe i want -f2 ? and not sure how to specify uint 20:42
i was running ./icbench -eBENCH -ft maybe that's size_t idk. it was just in the example 20:43
running ./icbench -eBENCH -f2 gives me C Size ratio% Bits/Int C MI/s D MI/s Name File 20:44
1001838 43.9 14.06 64.32 1822.27 TurboPack base40-nl.txt
1139868 50.0 16.00 63.91 932.25 TurboVByte base40-nl.txt
C Size ratio% Bits/Int C MI/s D MI/s Name File
1001838 43.9 14.06 64.32 1822.27 TurboPack base40-nl.txt
1139868 50.0 16.00 63.91 932.25 TurboVByte base40-nl.txt
before i got
401188 50.2 16.06 67.14 3997.47 TurboPack base40-nl.txt
so shows a lower C size but shows more Bits/Int so i am confused 20:45
maybe gonna try -f2t 20:46
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samcv anyway 14bits instead of 16 is not too much improvement 20:54
timotimo mh, fair enough 21:06
i've procrastinated the C code for index to codepointname 21:15
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timotimo perl6 -e 'use nqp; nqp::hllize(nqp::vmhealth).perl.say' 21:33
{"fsa sizeclass current pages" => (2, 2, 2, 5, 3, 287, 4, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0), "fsa sizeclass free elems at end" => (19, 102, 117, 26, 63, 88, 96, 68, 90, 84, 88,
80, 118, 124, 121, 80, 125, 110, 118, 113, 125, 117, 122, 119, 121, 107, 119, 123, 124, 125, 126, 124, 124, 126, 124, 123, 126, 127, 127, 125, 126, 126, 127, 125, 126, 114, 127, 127, 121, 126, 125, 126, 127, 126, 127, 116, 126, 125, 0, 127, 126, 126, 127, 127, 0, 127, 127, 125, 127, 127, 126, 124, 126, 127, 125, 126, 126, 119, 125, 124, 126, 116, 126, 127, 127, 126, 125, 126, 126, 125, 127, 127, 127, 127,
127, 127), "fsa sizeclass pagecounts" => (3, 3, 3, 6, 4, 288, 5, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1), "gc bytes promoted since full collection" => 0, "gc sequence number" => 0, "jit
frames produced" => 14, "num threads" => 2, "spesh frames produced" => 0}
^- probably not correct, these 21:34
jnthn Lies, damned lies, and vmhealth
timotimo like, it surely can't have 0 spesh frames produced when it jitted 14 frames 21:35
jnthn Well, unless it spesh frames really means "spesh'd but didn't jit"
timotimo perhaps that number is only updated when something is turned on
and the sizeclass stuff is quite spammy :)
samcv timotimo, this is more interesting gist.github.com/samcv/7939ad8a27e3...3ccb142385 21:36
timotimo oh wait what
samcv this is the codepoint index to the bitfield
though 53K is still more than I think i did with a ton of if else statements
timotimo aye, it only increases that number if a spesh limit is set 21:37
now i just have to put output of that in a big script and see how things evolve 21:39
well, it segfaults though :) 21:40
oh, haha 21:41
i push temp roots, but i don't pop 'em back out
that's a recipe for disaster
gist.github.com/timo/d58473fe86c33...b8f219f79c - my shooter example, but every 60 frames it outputs vmhealth 21:46
24 GC runs per 60 frames, eh? :\
well, two frames without a GC, then one with ... 21:47
MasterDuke timotimo: yesterday i printed out sc->body->sc_idx and idx from the three *_demand_* functions. i then added an nqp::wval op and tried to print the ^name of the results of calling nqp::wval with the pairs of ids 21:50
some worked, some gave `Invalid SC index in bytecode stream` 21:51
timotimo right 21:52
i remember that some didn't work, but i don't remember how they b0rked
MasterDuke but i'm not confident that i gave the right arguments to wval. or if those are the two right things, is that the right order? 21:53
timotimo hm, is fsa's current page even interesting compared to number of pages? 21:54
i don't actually think it is
i might have actually used a different op from wval, come to think of it
scgetobj? scgetobjidx? 21:55
i think scgetobjidx gives you the index when you give it an object
MasterDuke wval calls MVM_sc_get_sc_object
timotimo ah, so it might be right 21:57
MasterDuke why would some give that error? 22:01
timotimo *shrug*
jnthn timotimo: I'd expect current page will probably always be the latest one, since when we free memory we freelist it 22:05
timotimo right 22:08
we never free whole pages yet
i wonder if it'd promote much less to gen2 if i re-used objects with a free list in perl6-space 22:10
jnthn Dunno...if the things only live 1 frame, they'd be collected anyway? 22:11
MasterDuke i kind of forget where i started with this, i think it was trying to reduce the number of MVM_serialization_read_int calls. and to do that fewer things need to be *_demand_*ed. so i printed out those ids, which i can use to figure out what it is that's being demanded
jnthn MasterDuke: Many of those are 'cus of NFAs, fwiw 22:12
MasterDuke and in that case, i should look for singletons, since those are more likely to be able to remove
yeah, perl6.moarvm:<dependencies+deserialize> is about 90+%
of the MVM_serialization_read_int calls 22:13
oops,`CORE.setting.moarvm:<dependencies+deserialize>` and 70% to be correct 22:14
timotimo jnthn: well, enemies and bullets are on the screen for upwards of 300 frames usually 22:17
bullets less time, enemies more time
MasterDuke jnthn: given TimToady is working on NFAs, would these profiles i'm doing likely be completely invalidated when his works lands? 22:18
timotimo i forgot to add the "nurseries filled with %d bytes" thing to the health hash 22:21
apparently i implemented it wrong because it gives me negative values :\
MVMuint64 bytes_filled = (char *)target->nursery_alloc - (char *)target->nursery_fromspace; 22:22
is that wrong?
jnthn tospae
*tospace
MasterDuke: They may well change from that, yeah, and I'm kinda waiting to see how that work lands up before looking into getting rid of the dupe storage in MVMArrays, which in theory would halve it 22:23
timotimo the descriptions must have confused me
MasterDuke m: given $TimToady.is-working-on-NFAs { when True { @NFA-related-profiles = () } }
camelia rakudo-moar 637241: OUTPUTĀ«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>ā¤Variable '$TimToady' is not declaredā¤at <tmp>:1ā¤------> given ā$TimToady.is-working-on-NFAs { when Trueā¤Ā»
timotimo i'm considering giving these hash keys shorter strings %) 22:25
MasterDuke very readable, though i do like the rule (actual rule, or just idiom?) Ruby has of putting ? on the end of methods that return a bool
jnthn: have any ideas for non-NFA related LHF? 22:26
jnthn MasterDuke: In what area? Memory usage? 22:27
MasterDuke or cpu
jnthn Yeah...there's some places I suspect we can save a good bit of memory and thus CPU deserializing those things 22:28
Did you use moar-ha before?
If you perl6 --profile=heap -e ''
MasterDuke nope. it's a module, right?
jnthn Then it'll spit out a heap profile of the stuff in memory after startup
Yeah, panda install App::MoarVM::HeapAnalyzer 22:29
Or zef
Just got the former wired into my fingers still :)
And it installs a moar-ha program that you can run on the profile
You'll note that a bunch of memory is taken up by, iirc, Parameter objects 22:30
Maybe some others
I've pondered whether we can move some of the unusual Parameter-related bits out into another object that we reference from Parameter
So that the majority of them shrink 22:31
You might spot some other easy wins poking around at the data though
MasterDuke thanks, i'll play around with it
jnthn I wrote it primarily to help me diagnose leaks
But when I was looking at the data I figured there was a ton of memory use improvements to be found in it 22:32
MasterDuke heh, `summary` is not instant 22:33
`top` is fast 22:34
jnthn Oh, it does a bunch of caching 22:36
So the first time you do certain things (like look at a partiuclar snapshot) it's costly
But then it's cheaper
If you do summary again it's probably comparatively fast :)
path is similar; costly the first time, less so the next
In fact nearly instant the next
Though path is probably less interesting if you're hunting for savings; it's very useful for leak hunts though :) 22:37
(It tells you the shortest path from a GC root to the object)
timotimo i had a branch where i was sharing some object related to parameters or scalar descriptors or something
i think the latter
it makes one single test fail ;(
jnthn: got a reason why spesh frames created should not be counted unless the spesh limit is set? 22:40
we don't need the value to be exact, so multithreading should be all right (and spesh is going to live on its own thread at some point anyway)
jnthn timotimo: Hm, I forget but I thought they were always counted 22:41
timotimo at least not via this particular field 22:44
mayhaps there's a per-tc field that also counts?
jnthn Don't think so, but I forget exactly how I implemented the limit thing :)
timotimo i'll make it do the thing, then
Geth MoarVM/vmhealth: 120c3b17f7 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/spesh/candidate.c
Count spesh_produced even without spesh_limit.
 22:50
MoarVM/vmhealth: 2d9a7567e6 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | 10 files
introduce vmhealth op

gives moar-specific information about current state:
memory in use by nursery and FSA, count of gc runs so far, number of frames speshed and jitted, bytes promoted since last full collection etc.
timotimo github.com/timo/SDL2_raw-p6/blob/m...#L311,L323 - see if you can spot the method that creates too many objects here :P 22:57
i've made it re-use a single SDL_Rect for all those things now, and it reduced the number of gc runs to 19 every 60 frames 23:06
MasterDuke timotimo: will your vmhealth branch be used to make profiling better? 23:27
timotimo unlikely 23:32
i was inspired to make it for the benefit of monitoring solutions like prometheus 23:34
samcv ok i have thought more about collation. so we need a way to designate if we want to reverse the sorting
like swap the sorting order for case
MasterDuke timotimo: ah, cool
samcv so capitals come before lowercase versions
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timotimo so you can just set it up for like a web app or something 23:35
samcv not sure how that will work with the bitfield type things i have now
timotimo it'll be kind of more interesting to see something like a timeseries of GC times for minor and major collections and such
samcv 1, 2, 4, 8 23:36
timotimo number of open files perhaps
samcv probably want to add another integer value 23:38
MasterDuke is an int32 smaller than an int in perl6? 23:39
samcv so can have like unicmp_s(a, b, -4, 11 ...
yeah i think so MasterDuke
i think they're all 64bit
jnthn Sleep time; 'night all 23:42
samcv yeah i'll need to do that or else i will have to come up with something crazy for the collation_level int
timotimo had no internet for a couple minutes there :( 23:56
timotimo added a freelist for enemy objects

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