Perl 6 language and compiler development | Logs at colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6-dev | For toolchain/installation stuff see #perl6-toolchain | For MoarVM see #moarvm
Set by Zoffix on 27 July 2018.
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MasterDuke is there any reason nqp::istrue_s is called in Rakudo's src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp, but not defined in nqp? 01:20
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MasterDuke i undertand how it works (codegens to a MoarVM op), but why isn't it available/defined/whatever in NQP 01:23
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AlexDaniel` squashable6: next 04:53
squashable6 AlexDaniel`, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in ≈5 hours (2018-09-01 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
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|Tux| Rakudo version 2018.06-500-g656b0730f - MoarVM version 2018.06-442-g633604d30
csv-ip5xs0.939 - 0.962
csv-ip5xs-207.759 - 7.781
csv-parser22.575 - 22.983
csv-test-xs-200.409 - 0.461
test8.428 - 8.853
test-t2.047 - 2.056
test-t --race0.873 - 0.874
test-t-2035.593 - 35.925
test-t-20 --race12.125 - 12.998
 08:44
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lizmat Files=1248, Tests=76075, 335 wallclock secs (15.40 usr 5.25 sys + 2359.97 cusr 224.38 csys = 2605.00 CPU) 11:24
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lizmat m: dd ("A" .. "AB").list 11:50
camelia ("A",)
lizmat m: dd "AB" ~~ ("A" .. "AB") 11:51
camelia Bool::True
lizmat Feels to me we need to look more at Range issues :-(
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tbrowder_ .tell AlexDaniel mea culpa my recent =defn pod changes were ugly hacks and i am in process of cleaning up and improving. anyone working pod during squashathon please let me know what parts you are working on so we don’t conflict. 12:03
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
AlexDaniel . 12:04
yoleaux 12:03Z <tbrowder_> AlexDaniel: mea culpa my recent =defn pod changes were ugly hacks and i am in process of cleaning up and improving. anyone working pod during squashathon please let me know what parts you are working on so we don’t conflict.
timotimo m: say "Hello How Are You" ~~ ("G".."I") 12:09
camelia True
lizmat feels to me that unless the target is a non-Int numeric, we should do "target (elem) Range" 12:11
m: "Hello How Are You" (elem) ("G".."I")
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "(elem)" in expression "\"Hello How Are You\" (elem) (\"G\"..\"I\")" in sink context (line 1)
lizmat m: say "Hello How Are You" (elem) ("G".."I")
camelia False
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lizmat m: say "H" (elem) ("G".."I") 12:12
camelia True
lizmat m: say "J" (elem) ("G".."I")
camelia False
lizmat but perhaps we should clean that up for 6.e
timotimo this is about smart match being about lexicographic order 12:14
pmurias MasterDuke: we don't want to use the old sixmodel in truffle 12:15
MasterDuke pmurias: ah. revert whatever you feel like 12:22
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pmurias good news is a new truffle friendly object model is being work on ;) 12:23
MasterDuke heh, cool 12:24
Geth nqp/truffle: 7d1093f878 | (Paweł Murias)++ | 16 files
[truffle] Implement stubbing objects

Add a KnowHOW repr and beginning of a P6opaque repr.		 12:26
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Geth nqp/truffle: b172740800 | (Paweł Murias)++ | 6 files
Revert "[truffle] Implement nqp::iscont and _<i n s>"

This reverts commit c893f05b8cd92d1d0dea59d2d637c085f6797dd8.		 12:28
nqp/truffle: 85c90e8cad | (Paweł Murias)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/truffle/nodes/expression/NQPGetlexNode.java
Revert "[truffle] Fix wrong class name in getlex"

This reverts commit ed653e198a753a2e3700eb0b98f5135063f0300d.
pmurias MasterDuke: also I'm not sure if the getpid reflection using code ported from the jvm backend is a good idea :/ 12:32
Java 9 has a proper api for that but GraalVM is java 8 :( 12:33
tbrowder_ AlexDaniel: i need some guidance and a decision about an unspecced S26 pod feature: the ‘#’, in abbreviated blocks, as a sorthand for the config :numbered key (because abbreviated blocks contents start immediately following their typename and thus cannot have config info on the =typename line). 12:37
s/sorthand/shorthand/
S26 says the ‘#’ must be the first ws-delmited word in the block contents and that may be on the line following the =typname line. 12:40
that causes no problems with most blocks, but with some it complicates parsing significantly, e.g., =table, =code. 12:42
i would like to tighten the prescription to *require* the ‘#’ to be on the same line with the =typename. 12:43
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tbrowder_ .tell AlexDaniel ^^^^^^^^ 12:45
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
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MasterDuke pmurias: shouldn't 321c790756726fbbba246e05866d434ef9c88e32 be reverted also? 12:55
github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/321c790756 12:56
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MasterDuke hm, or maybe just the object version, the getlex_<i n s> ones might be fine 12:57
pmurias: not sure what you're recommending re getpid? 12:58
Geth rakudo: 607ac1541f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 4 files
Further remove chromatic's participation in Perl 6
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AlexDaniel tbrowder_: where's the code for that? Is that code really that much of a burden to maintain that it warrants the change? 13:01
yoleaux 12:45Z <tbrowder_> AlexDaniel: ^^^^^^^^
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: also, is anybody using this feature anywhere? Like in ecosystem? 13:05
tbrowder_: because that'd mean that fixing the modules should be part of the effort to do the change… 13:06
ideally at least 13:07
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dogbert2 m: my $a := $a; say $a.Str 13:27
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use variable $a in declaration to initialize itself
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $a := $7⏏5a; say $a.Str
expecting any of:
term
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dogbert2 m: my multi bar ($) { }; my sub foo () { my $q := bar($q); }; foo(); 13:28
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use variable $q in declaration to initialize itself
at <tmp>:1
------> 3 ($) { }; my sub foo () { my $q := bar($7⏏5q); }; foo();
expecting any of:
argument list
…
dogbert2 wonders if the above means that RT #125371 has in fact been fixed 13:29
synopsebot RT#125371 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125371 Segv on binding to one self and saying it
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lizmat m: my $a = $a 13:32
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use variable $a in declaration to initialize itself
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $a = $7⏏5a
expecting any of:
term
lizmat m: my $a := $a
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use variable $a in declaration to initialize itself
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $a := $7⏏5a
expecting any of:
term
Geth roast: 0c7bbbad8f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S06-signature/mixed-placeholders.t
Use different name for placeholder variable
 13:42
roast/6.c-errata: 0bac40aa3f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S06-signature/mixed-placeholders.t
Use different name for placeholder variable
 13:43
tbrowder_ AlexDaniel: the code for handling the pod :numbered alias ‘#’ does not exist, hence my use of term ‘unspecced’. Restricting its use to the =typename line only should NOT affect any current code. however, i will try to demo current code here (disregard fumbles): 13:58
m: {head # foo}; my $o = $=pod[0]; say $o.config<numbered> 14:02
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Missing block
at <tmp>:1
------> 3y $o = $=pod[0]; say $o.config<numbered>7⏏5<EOL>
expecting any of:
argument list
postfix
statement end
statement…
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tbrowder_ missed the = 14:02
m: =head # foo\n my $o = $=pod[0]; say $o.config<numbered> 14:05
camelia ( no output )
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AlexDaniel tbrowder_: but unspecced = no roast tests 14:06
tbrowder_ =for head :numbered\n my $o = $=pod[0]; say $o.config<numbered> 14:07
that’s right, my speccing pr will include tests, as usual
m:=for head :numbered \n 14:08
evalable6 (exit code 1) 04===SORRY!04=== Error while compiling /tmp/Le2ZxoO_tj
Precedi…
tbrowder_, Full output: gist.github.com/3b23bdc02ce1237a01...d5bba98dfa
tbrowder_ dat burn it, got to go to a real keyboard... 14:09
Geth nqp/truffle: 2486d2edcb | (Paweł Murias)++ | 5 files
Revert "[truffle] Implement nqp::getlex and _<i n s>"

This reverts commit 321c790756726fbbba246e05866d434ef9c88e32.		 14:10
tbrowder_ bottom line is, it’s not currently specced, so we should be able to agree that ‘#’ use is restricted to the =typename line only
if you like i can submitt 14:11
submit the tests first
pmurias MasterDuke: re getpid: maybe parsing the getName is better: stackoverflow.com/questions/35842/...process-id
tbrowder_ as we onow there are other pod things not specced, this is just one on the list 14:12
let me know decision, no more work until then. afk& 14:13
MasterDuke pmurias: for jvm and truffle, or just truffle?
pmurias MasterDuke: I would keep it as is it for the jvm 14:25
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pmurias MasterDuke: I'm concerned about using reflection on substrateve 14:30
* substratevm
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Geth nqp/truffle: 5517836f9b | (Paweł Murias)++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/truffle/sixmodel/Bootstrapper.java
[truffle] Fix bootstrap
 14:52
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MasterDuke pmurias: i couldn't find any information about when graalvm will support java 9, do you happen to know anything? 15:04
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MasterDuke pmurias: huh, i'm getting an NPE now at HEAD. `./nqp-j nqp-truffle.nqp -e 'say("hi")'`: java.lang.NullPointerException at org.perl6.nqp.truffle.sixmodel.Bootstrapper.bootstrapKnowHOW(Bootstrapper.java:22) 15:44
wait, maybe i wasn't at HEAD... 15:45
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MasterDuke pmurias: you're right. nqp::getpid works in truffle, but not when i build a native image for it 16:20
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tbrowder_ AlexDaniel: there are no currently no roast tests for the '#' alias for :numbered. 16:22
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AlexDaniel tbrowder_: I guess it's ok then. Maybe it'd make sense to ping the author of the speculation section you were referring to? 16:24
tbrowder_ See my gist here for my WIP tests for it: gist.github.com/tbrowder/38eb8c9b9...ce3e94bbe0
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: to know their reasoning, and if they agree
tbrowder_ you mean Damian Conway? Good idea, he does answer email.
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: what's the meaning of :numbered with tables? 16:28
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AlexDaniel tbrowder_: it feels like the intent was that this should work: gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/b35d5f6...932d7acbe8 16:33
honestly, I'm not sure I like the whole :numbered business and especially the # shortcut 16:34
it looks like a comment…
in fact it is highlighted in my editor, even if erroneously 16:35
(as a comment) 16:36
I mean, OK, pod blocks are like comments by themselves, but it is still confusing to my eye
RT#128498 16:37
synopsebot RT#128498 [new]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128498 [POD]6 doesn't recognize '#' following "=headN" keywords per S26
tbrowder_ I just sent an e-mail msg to Damian Conway (author of S26). In it I referenced the gist posted above. 16:40
MasterDuke pmurias: fwiw, i'm getting some `Missing or wrong version of dependency 'gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp' (for a couple files) when running things with truffle 16:42
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: maybe the best idea would be to start a new RFC ticket, because the whole thing seems questionable to me
tbrowder_: not just # on same line vs as first word, but the whole idea of using # for :numbered 16:43
greppable6: \:numbered 16:45
greppable6 AlexDaniel, 1 line, 1 module: gist.github.com/3cc9267209ebda60ce...6537a13d37
Geth rakudo: fa4d39639a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
Remove unneeded .substr() candidates

  timotimo++ for spotting		 16:47
timotimo \o/
sometimes it's the little things
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: for example, why can't it be a dot as a shortcut? 16:49
not arguing that it must be a dot, but still, why #?
=item1. Visito 16:50
=item1 Visito
=item1 # Visito
timotimo wakelift.de/2018/08/31/faster-fasta-please/ - i published my blog post! 16:52
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tbrowder_ because S26 says so? it stands out more starkly? dots carry their own problems. i asked Damian to reply here. If he does we can “grill” him! 17:30
timotimo: nice blog, thnx 17:44
timotimo thank you! 17:53
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TimToady In general, we've avoided using # for anything that is not a comment in Perl 6, because Perl 5 made the opposite mistake with things like $#foo and the history of matching # literally in non-/x regex 18:05
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TimToady m: say q#foo# 18:07
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
# not allowed as delimiter
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say q#7⏏5foo#
TimToady we don't even allow # as a choose-yer-own delimiter
timotimo m: say q♯foo♯ 18:08
camelia foo
timotimo there's always a way
TimToady yer pretty sharp
timotimo m: use MONKEY; EVAL qq[say q\c[NUMBER SIGN, /query unicodable6 18:09
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unrecognized \c character
at <tmp>:1
------> 3se MONKEY; EVAL qq[say q\c[NUMBER SIGN, 7⏏5/query unicodable6
timotimo lol
unicodable6: COMBINING
unicodable6 timotimo, U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT [Mn] ( ̀)
timotimo, U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT [Mn] ( ́)
timotimo, 445 characters in total: gist.github.com/6f5e6ec4bc34c7d82a...6f51f31575 18:10
timotimo m: use MONKEY; EVAL qq[say q\c[NUMBER SIGN, COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]foo\c[NUMBER SIGN, COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]]
camelia foo
timotimo m: say qq[say q\c[NUMBER SIGN, COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]foo\c[NUMBER SIGN, COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]]
camelia say q#̀foo#̀
timotimo so, how come we don't pair grave and accute combiners like we do “ and ”? :) :)
AlexDaniel m: say q#̀foo#̀ 18:11
camelia foo
TimToady lizmat: I agree with timotimo++ on the range matching being purely lexicographic; no iteration or set/junction logic is implied in our smartmatching because we have convenient ways to make those ideas explicit in p6 18:26
they didn't have those in p5, so made the mistake of designing their smartmatching with all sorts of implicit behavior that is difficult to reason about
what we might tighten up at some point is the notion that "A".."Z" promotes to "A"..."Z" in explicitly iterating contexts 18:27
we allowed it because p5 people expect for 1..10 to mean 1...10, but the case for promoting non-numerics is weaker than for numerics 18:28
timotimo right, we don't want to iterate through all reals between 1 and 10 for 1..10, even though every real in between will smartmatch to the range 18:29
and ABCDE is a little bit like 1.2345 in that respect
except we have what's basically "big floats" with strings 18:30
jdv79 timotimo: wow. that last blog post is disturbing. 18:44
"here's how to get p6 to be faster - don't use regexes"
timotimo it's the sad truth at the moment
jdv79 that's exactly the opposite of how i think with p5 and about "Perl"
oof
timotimo i'd say it's more like "don't use regex for trivial little pieces" at the moment
like, don't match /a/ if you can match "a"
jdv79 well, my use case in my module isn't trivial but it suffers the same issue. 18:45
i can just imagine the reponses from people if i said "use perl6 but don't use regexes"
haha 18:46
timotimo it's not always necessary to go for maximum performance, fortunately
samcv timotimo: in iterating contexts, if it's not assigned to a variable it acts identically right?
'A'...'Z' compared to 'A'..'Z'?
jdv79 i think its so amusing to me because leveraging the regex engine in p5 is a real optimization strat.
timotimo what, exactly?
oh, yes i believe so
we'll reach a point like that, i'm sure 18:47
that regex will be something to reach for if you want good performance
jdv79 hopefully. its not proven afaik. but that would be cool.
timotimo yes, it's not proven
but i don't see why we couldn't get much better than we currently are 18:48
jdv79 but is it reasonable to think it will get as good as or better than p5's regex perf?
that'd be interesting
timotimo in theory, we do have a jit compiler. i don't know how much that's worth, because i don't know how p5's regex guts are implemented
jdv79 afaik pretty crazy c 18:49
timotimo but it still acts a bit like an interpreter?
jdv79 i can't read it at all though
i believe so - some sort of nfa
timotimo ah, yes, we only use NFA for LTM at the moment, if i'm not mistaken 18:50
not everything can be mapped, after all
tbrowder_ TimToady: are you not in favor of the '#' for the short cut? I've gotten a favorable response from Damian, but I will point out any disagreement if you want me to.
I've invited him to visit but he said he doesn't use social media (smart man!). 18:53
TimToady the funny thing is that p5's regex engine uses the same strategy internally by avoiding the actual regex engine when it knows of literals that must match 18:54
we just haven't done that optimization yet in p6
that's not to say we can't improve the actual regex engine as well 18:56
tbrowder_: just sayin' we've been very, very careful in the rest of the language anywhere a # might possibly be confused as a comment 18:57
and it just seems kind of a low-leverage feature to be violating that 18:58
TimToady used to say "low wattage" until that became a feature with LED bulbs :) 18:59
pmurias .tell MasterDuke re nqp::istrue_s it not defined in nqp because it's not used by a QAST::Op but only in a lower level MAST
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to MasterDuke.
pmurias .tell MasterDuke re Missing dependency message that's because the setting isn't properly cross compiled and loaded yet
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to MasterDuke.
tbrowder_ understood, thanks. so far i've been able to make the grammar recognize the '#' in the abbreviated format okay (subject to the restriction to use only on the first line). we'll have to see on the other block formats. 19:01
TimToady "All things are possible, but not all things are expedient." —St. Paul
pmurias jdv79: re good or better performance than p5 regex it's definitely doable 19:02
tbrowder_ and damian definitely uses the '#' liberally in S26. i'll send on your comments. do you have a character you would suggest as a more suitable replacement?
TimToady I'll have to look at S26 again 19:04
I mostly ignored it when it first came out because there were too many other things going on in the rest of the language... 19:05
tbrowder_ ok, thank you (and thanks for St. Paul)
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tbrowder_ thinking out loud about pod, i like the asterisk better than the octothorpe for the shortcut :numbered config option. it stands out, but it doesn’t have the baggage of the ‘#’ being largely thought of as the *nix/perl comment. but, as S26 mentions, all pod is essentially a comment anyway. 22:15
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stmuk hmm I think some of the freenode servers are being DoSed given the number of joins and parts 22:52
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