Pugs t-shirts www.cafepress.com/pugscode | Pugs 6.2.9 released | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by stevan on 15 August 2005.
svnbot6 r6279 | putter++ | talks/README: Added entry for Wellington.pm p6 intro. 02:30
r6279 | putter++ | docs/SEEALSO: now points out that talks/README contains links to online versions of talks.
autrijus wow. 04:58
gvanrossum is on our committer list.
maybe I should ask him to add himself to AUTHORS. 04:59
mugwump: your design is on www.cafepress.com/pugscode now :) 05:37
&
mugwump heh, not offensive anymore huh? :) 05:39
dduncan autrijus, didn't you add gvanrossum to the committer list yourself, during ingy's talk in OSCON, when he asked you to live on stage? 05:40
coral heh 05:42
autrijus++
in the words of a former friend, omg 06:17
cafepress has a mousepad. do they have plastic mousepads?
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.tmp;method tmp { "perl 6".say}; }; my TMP $t .= new; tmp $t; 06:32
evalbot6 Error: Wrong number of invocant parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected in "&TMP::tmp"
xinming $handle.close
close($handle)
close $handle:
close $handle
But the from Synoposis, It is legal for my example. So Is Pugs wrong? 06:33
while {tmp $t:;} works
anyone here "alive" ? :-S 06:35
Khisanth isn't that an indirect invocation? I am quite sure that invovles a colon somewhere :) 06:41
jql ?eval class TMP { has $.tmp;method tmp { "perl 6".say}; }; my TMP $t .= new; tmp $t: 06:43
evalbot6 perl 6 bool::true
jql there ya go
you were right; it was the colon
xinming from Synoposis, It is legal for { tmp $t; } 06:44
jql ?eval class TMP { has $.tmp;method tmp { "I declared, I instantiated, I invoked"}; }; my TMP $t .= new; tmp $t:
evalbot6 'I declared, I instantiated, I invoked'
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.tmp;method tmp { "perl 6".say}; }; my TMP $t .= new; tmp $t 06:45
evalbot6 Error: Wrong number of invocant parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected in "&TMP::tmp"
xinming see the $handle.close example. :-) 06:46
the last one is also in Synoposis
jql the @Larry have flip-flopped on the explicit invocation syntax
masak jql: in what way?
xinming jql: you mean, The last one is not valid while Larry changed his mind, right? 06:47
jql well, you can make arguments for the mandatory colon for tmp $foo: arg1, arg2, arg3; vs. MMD on the whole function
xinming by the way, I sometimes wonder, Why the init Method will be named BUILD{ }, I think the init method use the class name might be better. :-)
jql xinming: how would you name the constructor of an anonymous class? >:) 06:48
xinming jql: Yes, I know, what here we talk is without arguments
jql: .... Ok, I understand. ;-) 06:49
Indirect object notation now requires a colon after the invocant if there are any arguments. If there are no arguments and you omit the colon, the notation is parsed either as a named unary operator or a list operator with one argument. In any case, all of these come out to the same thing: 06:50
jql xinming: an indirect method call without a colon would actually be a multimethod call 06:51
?eval class TMP { has $.tmp;multi method tmp { "perl 6".say}; }; my TMP $t .= new; tmp $t # don't think this works yet
evalbot6 Error: Wrong number of invocant parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected in "&TMP::tmp"
jql yeah, don't think that can work. heh
xinming hmm,, How about Larry think about this. 06:52
does larry agree with the example above. ? 06:53
jql might as well ask the mailing-list. it might divert them from the latest MMD thread
jql falls asleep
xinming jql: night
putter autrijus: re journal, you saw my earlier irc notes? "putter suggests we rotate the items every three months" is, well, not what I had in mind at all... ah well. 07:04
iblech: I notice the rules Parser/Prelude hook is getting in the way of PIL2JS. As rules are again stalled on "everything takes two orders of magnitude longer because pugs isn't quite working yet", and PIL2JS is part of the critical path on getting things working, please feel free to rip it out. Hmm, here's a patch... 07:08
pasteling "putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "a patch to pull the Parser/Prelude macro rules hook fyi." (344 lines, 13.1K) at sial.org/pbot/12492 07:09
putter fyi 07:10
good middle-of-the night all.
autrijus hm, I keep misinsg putter 07:27
autrijus updates journal to reflect putter's feedback 07:28
done 07:29
mm lwall gives justification for the y2k epoch 07:30
<larry> But mostly because I'm a megalomaniac, and think I can change the world.
autrijus ponders generating a -CPython for guido to play with 07:41
jql offers autrijus a choice of pie... banana cream? key lime? 07:42
hell, if larry can embarass the programming world into adding universal pcre integration, I think he can make his own epoch 07:44
autrijus well yeah, I hope so :) 07:45
hm, I wonder if I should blog about the guido incident today
(openfoundry.org sent a newsletter to all users to announce the new, much improved site look implemented by gugod)
and guido wrote back saying "but I'm not a user, why am I getting this" 07:46
then we found out he is a pugs committer after all :)
castaway1 grins 07:49
mm, is it readable now?
autrijus the beta version will be up in 2 days 07:50
07:50 castaway1 is now known as castaway
castaway well thats an improvement, I can actually use it now ,) 07:50
autrijus :D 07:51
castaway thinks public descs should be english tho (with an extra field for local names ,) 07:53
autrijus nodnod :)
autrijus needs to run... still at $job
castaway have fun ,)
Oh.. www.openfoundry != openfoundry.org (the first is still unusable) 07:55
jql files the ICANN petition 07:58
castaway ? 07:59
nothingmuch darn, someone kicked my box 08:00
nothingmuch thinks the builders may have actually bumped the power button
castaway wuzn't me 08:02
nothingmuch do you have an alliby?
castaway depends, for when? :) 08:03
nothingmuch today, in the morning I got a message saying "this box is going down, due to halt"
which is what you get when you press the power button 08:04
castaway umm.. I was in bed?
xinming hmm, anyone here can tell me what the differences between {has $var;} and { my $var; } for a class 08:56
Aankhen`` `has $var;` declares an instance variable. 08:57
`has $.var;`, rather.
`my $var;` declares a class variable.
?eval class Foo { my $bar = "bar (class)"; has $.bar = "bar (instance)"; }; (Foo.bar, Foo.new.bar) 08:58
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { my $bar = "bar (class)"; has $.bar = "bar (instance)"; }; (Foo.bar, Foo.new().bar)
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` Bah.
D'oh. 08:59
My mistake.
?eval class Foo { our $bar = "bar (class)"; has $.bar = "bar (instance)"; }; ($Foo::bar, Foo.new().bar)
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` What the heck?
?eval class Foo { our $bar = "bar (class)"; has $.bar = "bar (instance)"; }; $Foo::bar
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
xinming :-)
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has $.bar = "abcd" } 09:00
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` Ah, that'd be the problem.
Anyway.
I made a mistake earlier.
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.bar = "abc"; };
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` `my $var;` acts like a regular lexical variable, i.e. one that is limited in scope to the class in which it is declared.
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.bar; };
evalbot6 undef
Aankhen`` Or... wait...
One sec.
Aankhen`` tries to sort things out in his head. 09:01
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.bar; my $.bar };
evalbot6 undef
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.bar =1; my $.bar; my $bar; };
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
xinming ?eval class TMP { has $.bar; my $.bar; my $bar; };
Aankhen`` `my $.foo` declares a private class variable, i.e. one that can only be accessed by it or its subclasses, or any classes it "trusts".
evalbot6 undef
Aankhen`` That sounds about right.
xinming: `my $.foo` declares a private class variable, i.e. one that can only be accessed by it or its subclasses, or any classes it "trusts".
xinming hmm... how about the keyword has? 09:02
Aankhen`` On the other hand, `has $.foo` declares a public instance variable.
So if you have this: class Foo { has $.bar = "bar" }
Then you can access $.bar as a property of a Foo object, rather than the class: my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar 09:03
xinming ?eval class Foo { has $.bar = "bar" }; my Foo $v .= new; $v.bar.say;
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
Aankhen`` Initial values for attributes don't seem to be supported yet.
xinming for priviate variable, the has $:var form is used I think. :-S 09:04
hard to understand. T_T
Aankhen`` For instance variables, yes...
I'm not really sure about the class variables thing.
`has $:foo` declares a private instance variables.
s/s\.$/./ 09:05
xinming ?eval class T { has $.new; }; my T $o .= new;
evalbot6 \undef 09:06
xinming ?eval class T { has $.new; method tmp { 'pugs'.say }}; my T $o .= new; $o.tmp;
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tmp"
Aankhen`` I believe you need a better signature on that method. 09:07
?eval class T { has $.new; method tmp () { "pugs" } }; my T $o .= new; $o.tmp;
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tmp"
Aankhen`` ?eval class T { has $.new; method tmp () { "pugs" } }; my T $o .= new; $o.tmp
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tmp"
xinming Aankhen``: no, In fact, I think that's the problem for the member variable $t. :-)
oops.
$.new
Aankhen`` Yes...
?eval class T { method tmp () { "pugs" } }; my T $o .= new; $o.tmp; 09:08
evalbot6 'pugs'
Aankhen`` wanders off. 09:09
xinming ?eval class T { has $.new; method tmp { 'pugs'.say }}; my T $o .= bless( {} ); 09:13
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bless"
xinming ?eval class T { has $.new; method tmp { 'pugs'.say }}; my $o = T.bless( {} );
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bless"
xinming oops.
nothingmuch god damnit! 10:15
nothingmuch just spent a day learning enough CSS to do what he wants
castaway comforts nothingmuch
nothingmuch and when it finally works.... it doesn't under IE
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!
castaway IE--
nothingmuch Microsoft probably owes the world 50% of it's lost man hours 10:16
the rest can be attributed to family emergencies, real hardware problems, drug abuse, and so forth
ods15 nothingmuch: if you're having that much trouble, you're probably doing something broken anyway 10:17
nothingmuch ods15: "display: table-cell"
it works perfect everywhere, very stable, very non quirky
10:17 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
ods15 css is kinda nice, but your page should look nice in links as well as other browsers 10:17
nothingmuch except that it's completely unsupported on IE
ods15 what is that
nothingmuch well, it means that the items (divs, spans, etc) can be layed out like a table 10:18
even when they're not
ods15 then use tables...
nothingmuch ods15: please, don't just preach
ods15 ok, could you explain to me it then?
nothingmuch i don't do this because I think it's fun
i did this because tables didn't give me enough control 10:19
and the layout was completely unreadable
ods15 hmm
nothingmuch nevermind, i'll find a way to deal with it
I could create images with GD
and just display them inline
=)
ods15 what are you trying to do? can you give me a screenshot of the page as it works in FF?
Aankhen`` odsl: The whole point of CSS is to seperate style (presentation) from structure (markup). This makes it /easier/ for text browsers to display the page.
nothingmuch ods15: i'll find something, i haven't exhausted my options yet 10:20
Aankhen`` ods15, even.
Aankhen`` curses Courier New.
ods15 Aankhen``: yeah, css IS good
castaway (except CSS is too complex for what it does, and has sucky support :)
ods15 but it shouldn't be your problem when designing a page...
btw, my idea of a pretty page... kmenc15.sf.net/ 10:21
castaway thats not pretty, just plain ,)
Aankhen`` Indeed.
ods15 plain is pretty :)
Aankhen`` Nope.
Plain is plain. 10:22
Plain != pretty.
Simple != pretty.
ods15 bs
Aankhen`` Truth.
ods15 bah
Aankhen`` That page looks like something out of 1996.
ods15 oh, what am i talking about, you're perl programmers, ofcourse you think big is beautiful...
Aankhen`` I never said big is beautiful. 10:23
nothingmuch ods15: wtf?
Aankhen`` "Simple" and "pretty" are not mutually exclusive.
However, they are not equivalent.
ods15 Aankhen``: ah, i misunderstood your "equations"
nothingmuch ods15: is C pretty?
Aankhen`` S'okay, I think they weren't very clear.
ods15 i thought you meant "simple can't possibly be pretty"
nothingmuch is it small?
Aankhen`` Nah. 10:24
I've seen plenty of simple sites that manage to look really good.
ods15 nothingmuch: C is slightly too big, but it's simpler and smaller than most. i think it's generally beautiful.
nothingmuch ods15: not the language, the programs written in it
ods15 what do you mean 10:25
nothingmuch C as it's defined is elegant
castaway simple can be pretty, lack of colour whatsoever isnt (IMnsHO :)
nothingmuch it's very little that gives you very much
ods15 Aankhen``: i like sites which gives content...
nothingmuch: yeah... 10:26
nothingmuch but C code usually isn't pretty or elegant
Aankhen`` ods15: I do too, but I don't call a site with minimum style and colour but lots of content pretty.
nothingmuch it's serious, but that's all i can think of
wolverian I think beaglewiki.org/ is rather pretty.
Aankhen`` nothingmuch: Could I see the page on which you're using `display: table-cell;`?
ods15 checks
nothingmuch Aankhen``: no, sadly, it's internal company data
Aankhen`` wolverian: Yeah, that looks nice. 10:27
nothingmuch and creating a mockup would take me quite a while, since the structure is pretty big
Aankhen`` wolverian: Also check out blog.codefront.net/.
nothingmuch: OK, then I'll simply ask: are you sure you shouldn't just be using tables?
ods15 looks nice. wiki don't usually look very good in elinks/links :/ even wikipedia is kinda bad there..
nothingmuch Aankhen``: if I use tables I have colspan on 80% of the cells, and rowspan on 20% of the cells
wolverian Aankhen``, that's nice, too. the a:hover colour is a bit bright, but then again, this LCD destroys colour pretty well. 10:28
Aankhen`` nothingmuch: What sort of content are you marking up?
nothingmuch Aankhen``: an item in a database, and all it's complex relationship to 3 other tables
as well as edit/delete buttons
ods15 nothingmuch: i haven't seen THAT many C programs, but i can say i've seen quite a few which were wonderfully designed (e.g. ffmpeg), and quite a few which have a wonderfully broken design... (mplayer) but it has more to do with planning ahead than the language...
Aankhen`` tables++
wolverian: Yeah, the hover colour is a bit bright, but what I like is the overall look. 10:29
nothingmuch ods15: i don'
t mean in the big picture
i mean the actual code
there is too much micromanagement
not enough intention
ods15 ah, that
depends on your purposes.. 10:30
nothingmuch the code doesn't say what it wants to do, it says how to do it, and also what is needed to do it, and how to do that too
Aankhen`` wolverian: phoenity.com/firefox.html # seems fairly simple now, but it totally blew me away the first time I saw it.
ods15 and, it too depends on a good design
wolverian Aankhen``, heh, the backgrounds are neat.
Aankhen``, but the title image doesn't have an alpha channel :/ 10:31
ods15 if you make good general purpose functions which do the tiny things, the big stuff can use them and not worry about small stuff
nothingmuch ods15: except when it needs to
Aankhen`` wolverian: mathibus.com/ # opinion? :-)
nothingmuch and then you get 10 variation s on a short name
ods15 ?
nothingmuch one for each different way on how memory is managed 10:32
on the return value
or pass-a-pointer
or what not
and if you have the returns-a-mallocced-thing, you need to define a macro that allocates for that function
or link it to something proper
and if you pass a pointer, then you need to worry about memory anyway
ods15 well C's is most known for it's greatest advantage and disadvantage - it leaves memory management to the programmer
nothingmuch ods15: memory management is not the only thing 10:33
objective C is a superset of C, that gives OO
it's memory management is also manual
ods15 OO is design, not language
nothingmuch but it's tucked away very nicelyu 10:34
Aankhen`` ods15: Ever done Perl 5 OO? :-P
nothingmuch ods15: OO is the luggage that comes with the language
you can't do OO proper in C
ods15 Aankhen``: nope.. but i've seen quite a bit of OO in C
nothingmuch you can pretend that you're doing it
but it's not really it
ods15 no, you can REALLY do it
nothingmuch you can implement OO in C
Aankhen`` ods15: Try it sometime.
ods15 with structs and functions pointers
nothingmuch ods15: that's not OO, that's structs and function pointers 10:35
that, btw, is what objective C is
structs and function pointers
but with syntax and culture
objective C used to be just preprocessed down to C
and then compiled
ods15 no, it's OO. if you believe me, look at mplayer's vf layer...
Aankhen`` If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands! 10:36
ods15 the entire vf stuff is very beautiful "OO" style
nothingmuch ods15: this argument is pointless
my original premise is:
C leaves you worrying about too much details all the time, when you should only really care about them when you care about them
castaway (so does assembler ,) 10:37
Aankhen`` nothingmuch: BTW, I hate to digress, but as regards your earlier problem... :-P www.usability.com.au/resources/tables.cfm
ods15 which is ofcourse why it's only best suited in places where it's best suited...
castaway its best suited to writing compilers in ,)
ods15 there is no "perfect" language :)
castaway: or any kind of intensive operations 10:38
wolverian Aankhen``, nice, although nothing special. I think the horizontal navigation menu should have a different background colour than the main text body. the 'recent comments' author links are too light.
Aankhen``, otherwise I like it.
simple and easy to read.
and not ugly.
castaway ods15: throw more hardware at it ,)
nothingmuch ods15: uh, that's not what I mean
ods15 nothingmuch: ?
Aankhen`` wolverian++
nothingmuch my claim wasn't that C is bad for everything 10:39
it was that most code is inelegant
ods15 ah
nothingmuch and this inelegance is the price you pay for control
and sometimes, you pay for control in safety, and even performance
ods15 nothingmuch: ?
you lost me on performance.. usually that is the reson you take control.. 10:40
nothingmuch ods15: what about copy on write? who the hell wants to really optimize every copying or non copying operation by hand?
also, some languages are more optimizable than C, because the functions deal more with intention than with details, so the compiler can replace details with better ones 10:41
ods15 scratches head
what copy on write?
i mean, what did you mean by what you said there 10:42
nothingmuch ods15: my $str = "Foo"; my $other = $str; # should this make a copy?
ods15 i know what cp[y on write is
nothingmuch in a higher level languaage the compiler can see what your usage pattern for a given string is
if it determines that a given variable takes a substring
ods15 nothingmuch: hmm, what do you mean
nothingmuch and immutably manipulates it, until the substring is destroyed 10:43
even if the lexical scope of the code doesn't know if it's mutably or immutably manipulated
ods15 in perl, that code only copies on write?
nothingmuch ods15: no, perl doesn't have COW
ods15: look at haskell's arrays
in haskell most data structures are immutable 10:44
but sometimes it makes sense for the immutable structures to really be implemented as mutable structures, because it's more efficient
this is comparing apples and oranges, WRT to C
ods15 13:40:26 <nothingmuch> ods15: what about copy on write? who the hell wants to really optimize every copying or non copying operation by hand? - you mean, a lazy C programmer would ALWAYS duplicate his stuff even when he doesn't need to, and in other languages this wouldn't happn?
nothingmuch ods15: the programmer, lazy or not lazy, should not need to worry about that 10:45
for example:
ods15 i don't think i've ever heard of something like that.. whenever making any kind of copy, you know beforehand if you need to modify it or not, and duplicate or point accordingly...
nothingmuch sub foo ($str) { my $sub = substr($str, <offset>, <length>); return $sub };
my $string = "moose";
my $other = foo($string); 10:46
length($other);
my $another = foo($string);
castaway but what if you dont know? :)
nothingmuch $other =~ tr/A-Z/a-z/;
oops, the $other in the last one should be $another
ods15 nothingmuch: is this actually broken perl code you're giving me? should i run this code in perl? 10:47
nothingmuch ods15: it's pseudo code
ods15 ah
nothingmuch foo() accepts a string
and returns a part of it
it doesn't know what happens to the part of it
if the return value is modified, the original string should not be altered
in C, how would you keep 'my $other = $string; length($other); # other is no longer used now' efficient? 10:48
ods15 in C i would have to copy no matter what due to null terminator 10:49
nothingmuch ods15: that's besides the point
ods15 lol
nothingmuch assume the string is really a struct that has a pointer and some length
ods15 ok
nothingmuch anyway, in a language that doesn't specify it, you have several different solutions: 10:50
copy on write can make the substring share bytes with the original
$other doesn't cause a copy
but $another does
furthermore, static code analysis can even avoid COW
ods15 heh
nothingmuch because a compiler could see that foo is used in a variable that gets changed, and that doesn't get changed
and the compiler can augment the version in use 10:51
ods15 in places where efficiency REALLY matters, this kind of situation should never happen
nothingmuch ods15: why should it never happen
ods15 i agree, in this case C would be "slower" as you would have to always make a copy
nothingmuch ods15: no, C will probably be faster
if you make two versions of 'foo' 10:52
but then the programmer is slower
so most people will just make a copy to stop worrying about it
which is the correct way for most code
but look at projects like psyco, which take high level code
ods15 actually, in C i wouldn't do this at all because there's no such thing as a "substr" function
...due to the memory management....
nothingmuch ods15: that's sooooo besides the point
ods15 no, it's not
nothingmuch ods15: it seems like you're trying to avoid dealing with the main issue 10:53
i'm giving you general examples
that are supposed to convey a concept
ods15 nothingmuch: which don't apply when you take not of the "little" details
nothingmuch and C does have substr in the sense that perl's substr is implemented in C
castaway sighs
ods15 13:52:17 <nothingmuch> so most people will just make a copy to stop worrying about it - stop worrying about it? they still need to free() it!!
nothingmuch ods15: nevermind
oids
ods15: see? that's why C sucks for stuff that shouldn't care about it
ods15 lazy.. programmers.. 10:54
nothingmuch ods15: yes, programmers should be lazy
my time is more expensive than my compiler/processor
ods15 and use high level language :)
nothingmuch much more expensive
ods15: for 90% of the code yes
ods15 i forgot your point
something about C programs 10:55
nothingmuch my point was that C is about micromanagement
ods15 yes, it is
i agree
nothingmuch and that's why programs written in it are inelegant in my opinion - they don't concern themselves with what result the program is trying to achieve
they are concerned with tiny issues that come up on the way to that result 10:56
ods15 ah. well. depending on the purpose, this could be unavoidable... (you're obviously not suggesting that mplayer and linux should be re-written in perl)
nothingmuch ods15: no, i'm not, but mplayer's command line argument processing code doesn't really need to perform well, does it? 10:57
castaway (the right language for the job)
ods15 nothingmuch: ah, yes, you could say for example, the entire high level management SHOULD be written in something else
but unfortunately, once you pick a language, you should STICK to that language.. any other solution is almost always less elegant, not more 10:58
all of mplayer's high level management is totally awful, and it being C is not the only cause, but defenetaly a cause.. sadly, there is no better solution. oh well 11:00
oh, 2pm... bbl, patrol 11:01
castaway patrol? 11:02
ods15 nothingmuch: what;s the word in english? 11:11
castaway patrol sonuds english :9
theorbtwo Patrol: An orginized, regular, search, in order to catch things that shouldn't be there, but are. 11:12
ods15 yeah that's about it 11:17
army thing
i need to go around the base
nothingmuch returns 12:02
nothingmuch leaves once more
castaway ah, around the base.. and what do you do the rest of the time? :)
ods15 chat with you guys 12:06
castaway nice job
ods15 yeah. army. sure is hard :(
theorbtwo US army? 12:09
castaway he's in .il 12:10
theorbtwo Ah.
Odin- So, a former terrorist group. 12:18
castaway ?
Odin- The IDF was formed from hebrew terrorist groups.
... not an unusual way for a national army to form, I might note. 12:19
castaway nods
ods15 nod
well, it wasn
err
well, it wasn't really terrorists..
Odin- You can argue that their cause was just, but that's irrelevant. ;)
ods15 afaik they didn't do any kind of innocent people killing, atleast not intentionally
Odin-: actually i consider terrorism by killing innocent irrelavent people 12:20
killing non-innocent people is still just as bad imo, but it's not "terrorism"
Odin- By that definition, the U.S. Army is the single largest terrorist organisation today. 12:21
*shrug*
ods15 (e.g., all the armies in the world as far as i am concered are totally as bad as terrorism...)
hmm.. u.s. army kills innocent people?...
Odin- notes that 'terrorist' is what people-in-power call others doing the same thing as themselves.
ods15: Sure. It's called "collateral damage". 12:22
ods15 heh
i actually consider all people innocent...
Odin- may sound rabidly anti-military, but that's not really it. 12:23
castaway even the ones that are trying to kill you?
Odin- I just don't believe there's any nobility attached. ;)
ods15 there are very few people which really want to kill, they are call psychopaths... the rest do it in self defense or forced to by circumstances..
as for the psycopaths, they are innocent too, because it's not their fault their mind is broken 12:24
stupidity is not controllable...
Odin- An interesting viewpoint.
theorbtwo Don't confuse psychopathy with stupidity.
castaway breed it out ,)
ods15 theorbtwo: hmm, good point
Odin- And one that really easily makes status quo justifiable. ;)
ods15 but both are mental diseases though? 12:25
as in, uncontrollable?
theorbtwo Sure.
Odin- castaway: Psychopathy isn't an inheritable disease.
castaway I mean the stupidity
Odin- Well, that isn't, either.
castaway and as for the other, Im not so sure thats true
theorbtwo But a stupid person probably won't be very good at killing you. The psychpaths, however, will likely be /very/ good, at least at some things.
Odin- I've never come across a person that's "incurably stupid".
castaway: There are genetic factors which influence it, sure. 12:26
ods15 Odin-: go work at some tech support company, you'll see what it means :)
Odin- castaway: Just like, say, depression.
ods15: Heh. :>
theorbtwo 'Ignorant' ne 'stupid'.
Odin- ods15: Dunno. I think that's arrogance speaking. ;)
ods15 theorbtwo: religious leaders are not psychopaths, they are stupid 12:27
and they kill thousands
theorbtwo nothingmuch, I'd tend to think that they are more likely psycopaths then stupid. Or neither.
ods15 ods15?
theorbtwo I don't think stupid people are very good at becomming religious leaders.
ods15 W bush :P though he's not a religious leader... 12:28
and tbh i'm not sure if he's stupid, never really checked
theorbtwo GW Bush isn't stupid (though he tries to appear so). OTOH, he quite possibly is a psychopath.
Odin- I wouldn't say 'stupid'.
I'd say "narrowly focused".
ods15 childish? 12:29
Odin- Which is pretty much what psychopathy is...
theorbtwo Psychopathy, as I understand it, is not having a normal motoviational structure, or an intuitive understanding of psychology. 12:30
They can /learn/ psychology quite effectively, but to them it's xenospsychology -- they don't learn about themselves as they learn about other people, or vice-versa.
ods15 theorbtwo: hmm, ok, what about the nazis?.. hitler was NOT stupid, but his "fan club" i believe mostly were 12:31
he rised to power by stupidity
Odin- I dunno.
I think it was the other way around.
theorbtwo Stupid people are very easy to manipulate by those who learn phychology, yes.
Odin- Hitler was nuts, his "inner ring" was relatively sane, although utterly unreal.
ods15 Odin-: nah, hitler was not stupid, at all
castaway he was a psycho .. (meglomaniac?) 12:32
ods15 (stupid is not capable of mathematical/logic thinking...)
Odin- ods15: I didn't say 'stupid'. But people like Göring, Himmler most certainly weren't, either.
ods15 theorbtwo: btw, you said, ignorance != stupidity... elaborate?
himmler?
Odin- ods15: Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. 12:33
castaway not knowing something yet is not the same as not being able to comprehend it
Odin- Stupidity is inability to know.
(Roughly speaking.)
ods15 Odin-: ah, well, the people who call tech support are not JUST ignorant, they really are TRUELY stupid
(i don't mean all..)
castaway no, I think mostly they're ignorant
Odin- ods15: Not at all. You just try to start at the wrong point. ;)
ods15 Odin-: no, they refuse to do anything, using wizards scares them, they do not understand that cutting the power in the room causes the pc to shut down 12:34
that is not ignorance
most are ignorant, yes. but some are truely stupid
Odin- Maybe some. But they're rare. ;> 12:35
ods15 not according to the stories my sister has told me.. (adsl tech)
Odin- Most of the "horror stories" I've heard are not stupidity.
And, yeah, re: the power ... no, that's not "stupidity". It's a failure of understanding; i.e., ignorance. 12:36
ods15 Odin-: umm, isn't FAILURE of understanding stupidity? 12:37
castaway no, inability is stupidity
Odin- ods15: No. Inability to understand.
ods15 ignorance i thought was that you simply have never learned
but failure of learning would then be stupidity?
Odin- ods15: Not at all. That could be the result of a myriad different things. 12:38
ods15 (not understanding that 2+2+2 is 2*3, after you've been explained, is stupidity.. not knowing it BEFORE you've been explained, is ignorance.. right?)
theorbtwo Correct, ods15.
Odin- ods15: Hm. Yes. 12:39
ods15 then.. failure of understandg is stupidity?...
Odin- But do keep in mind that not understanding it after one round of explaining it doesn't mean someone is stupid.
ods15 Odin-: well, stupid is not black and white
it grows "gradually"
Odin- ods15: Neither is arrogance. ;)
Which, frankly, is an all too common taint on intelligence. 12:40
ods15 if you're reffering to me you'll have to explain to me where i've been arrogant.. i (think i) generally try not be...
dbrock tech support customers' failure of understanding is the same as tech support's failure of explaining 12:41
ods15 that's a good point.. heh 12:42
nothingmuch theorbtwo: huh?
ods15 but i think fortunately most of tech support is just as stupid as teir customers, which makes the communication easier :)
Odin- ods15: Well, I think you have a skewed viewpoint. I know I do. The fact that someone takes much longer to realise something than you, or even an average person, doesn't mean the person is stupid. Especially when there are unstated assumptions of knowledge, which often happens...
dbrock the failure might be due to the customer's stupidity and ignorance, or it might be due to tech support's incompetence, or any combination thereof :-)
Odin- ods15: And you wondered where arrogance was to be found? ;> 12:43
dbrock: Indeed. :)
ods15 Odin-: well, i never mentioned myself..
theorbtwo orafu, in many cases, the falure of documentation -- often including the complete absence of any documentation.
nm: What are you "huh"ing, in purticular?
dbrock ods15: good point :-)
theorbtwo wonders who he meant when he said "orafu". 12:44
ods15 but, even though it doesn't mean the person is stupid, it does SOMEWHAT (in most cases) mean the person is stupidER (which could still be very intelligent, just not AS)
Odin- ods15: Which brings the latter point to focus. Often, when knowledgeable people are trying to explain something, they make unstated assumptions of a person's knowledge, which is by no means certain.
AS?
ods15 the other person
Odin- Ah. 12:45
Yeah, sure.
But in those cases I think "stupid" is a bad word to use. ;)
ods15 and that's what i meant by "gradually"
yes, lack of a better word :)
theorbtwo For example: "Of course your computer is off, if your power failed!"
ods15 i'll say the cliche - everything is relative, nobody is stupid or smart :)
theorbtwo 1) They realize their power has failed, and not that the computer and light bulb both happened to die at the same time. 12:46
2) They know that the computer is an electrical device, and not mechanical.
ods15 they already know that electricty runs many appliances in the house
theorbtwo 3) They know that it doesn't work on batteries (many electronic devices do).
ods15 and they are unable to draw conclusions, that is stupidity
theorbtwo They do?
ods15 tv, refrigirator... 12:47
theorbtwo That's another assumption.
Perhaps they haven't tried to use the TV or refrigerator during a power failure.
ods15 wait, so the statement you said just now are assumptions?
theorbtwo Power failures of more then a few seconds aren't that common in much of the US anymore, for example.
ods15 i see
yes, i guess they are assumptions... but in this example, these assumptions are safe?... 12:48
castaway looks back in after answering the phone and is completely lost
Aankhen`` I always thought stupidity is the frequent (or perhaps regular?) inability to arrive at the correct conclusion despite having, and being aware of, all the necessary information.
theorbtwo If you've never used a 3.5in floppy, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that it's a card reader.
ods15 Aankhen``: yeah, that's a pretty good definition.. stupidity comes in many forms 12:49
theorbtwo Yep, Aankhen, and one tech support call isn't enough to know if they do it frequently, and have all the neccessary information.
theorbtwo thinks it's a very good definition.
ods15 mostly all forms of stupidity involve inability to reach/understand a conclusion
theorbtwo: the assumptions you mentioned are practically safe assumptions 12:51
theorbtwo The other day I saw a series of photos of stupid things people do to their computers and send them in for repair.
Aankhen`` [18:17:54] <theorbtwo> Power failures of more then a few seconds aren't that common in much of the US anymore, for example. # lucky dawgs.
ods15 also, even if they are assumptions, all of those assumptions are actually conclusions themselves, which should've been reached, if the person isn't stupid 12:52
Aankhen`` Yup.
theorbtwo One was of credit cards stuck in a 3.5" floppy drive, with the caption "no, it's not a card reader". 12:53
Aankhen`` Hrm.
ods15: Actually, I'm not so sure...
ods15 theorbtwo: hehe
theorbtwo If you've never seen a 3.5" floppy, and nobody told you otherwise, thinking it's a card reader isn't that crazy.
Aankhen`` Everyone exhibits the inability to reach the conclusion once in a while.
It might be that you reached all the necessary conclusions except one.
ods15 Aankhen``: i agree... 12:54
theorbtwo Computers these days don't come with manuals. At best, they have an icon on the desktop, which hopefully you figure out to double-click on, and how to use.
Aankhen`` theorbtwo: They do if they're assembled. :-D
ods15 hehe
castaway with real "user" manuals? I dont believe you
theorbtwo Aankhen: I haven't seen a computer that came with a manual that laid everything you need to know out in a long time.
Aankhen`` castaway: 'Twas said in jest. :-P You do get the manuals for the individual parts, though. ;-)
theorbtwo: Have they stopped bundling manuals with branded computers? 12:55
I know my mother's laptop came with one.
theorbtwo I think so, Aankhen.
A useful one?
ods15 Aankhen``: one on how to browse the web?
Aankhen`` I dunno, never read it.
castaway one that explained double click, and F1 and .. ?
(and start to shutdown :)
Aankhen`` It had online (as in, "on computer", not "on Web") help, so I browsed that a bit. 12:56
Come to think of it, though, it wasn't really a good idea for newbies.
theorbtwo Most likely, it doesn't tell you how to use a computer, only how to use the bits of that computer that vary from a bog-standard computer.
Aankhen`` (i.e. the answer to castaway's question is yes)
s/yes/no/ even. -_-
theorbtwo: Spot on.
castaway Which is no help whatsoever to people who have never used one 12:57
Aankhen`` Yeah.
castaway Its like giving someone a car without them haven taken lessons .. what do all the knobs and buttons and levers do?
theorbtwo Thank god it's so hard to get a computer to run over people.
castaway indeed.. easy to get it to spam people tho 12:58
Aankhen`` castaway: Yeah, with a manual that shows you how the CD player is different from others.
castaway thinks the "computer driving licence" idea is still a good one
Aankhen`` Or how the six-speed manual transmission can be switched to a four-speed automatic transmission.
12:58 autark is now known as jp-autark
Aankhen`` Mmm, I don't really care about a computer driving license... 12:58
I do care about a "computer instruction license" though. 12:59
castaway whichever you call it
Aankhen`` Almost all instructors I have ever met have been completely clueless.
castaway but just better manuals would help a lot... they'd just have to be huge
theorbtwo I've never met a computer instructor other then myself and the guy I worked with (who did most of the instruction).
Aankhen`` My pet peeve is Web development. 13:00
castaway whats that got to do with users? :)
Aankhen`` "Every Tom, Dick and Harry can build a Website these days..." Heck no, they can't. They can mash together a bunch of angle brackets and letters. They can't build Websites. 13:01
Oh, nothing, I just wanted to hijack the converstion. :-D
theorbtwo Lots of users try to do web development these days.
nothingmuch colspan--
theorbtwo However, thank the many gods, they don't really mess up other people.
Aankhen`` theorbtwo: Could you elaborate on "users"?
theorbtwo People without the ability to read and understand w3 specs, or even realize that such specs exist. 13:02
Aankhen`` Ah, those people.
theorbtwo s/w3/w3c/
Aankhen`` Actually, every one of them does mess up other people, since pretty much everyone starts out by copying other people's code.
castaway what annoys me (more) is that some then think they know something, and write "HowTos" for others, which spreads the crap 13:03
theorbtwo They don't mess up other people in the same way that not being firewalled does, or driving like you have no idea that there are such things as road laws.
castaway (I little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing)
Aankhen`` theorbtwo: Ah, that's true.
castaway s/I/A/
Aankhen`` castaway: Aye aye!
castaway ponders 'net "pollution" laws ,9 13:04
Aankhen`` LMAO.
castaway++
theorbtwo I'm very glad that new installs of winxp now come with the firewall enabled by default.
castaway lets spin off a separate network for professionals and leave these people to their junk.. (wait, wasnt that how the internet started.. ?)
Aankhen`` Heh.
theorbtwo The thing is that I'm /very/ reticent to get the law any more involved in the internet then it already is.
castaway didnt really mean a governmental law 13:05
theorbtwo What did you mean, then?
theorbtwo ponders ISPs giving "good netizen" discounts. 13:06
Aankhen`` Another spec, like WCAG. ;-)
castaway some sort of self preservation / higher echelon / test ..
Aankhen`` OK, I'm off. 13:07
Gonna go watch Madagascar.
Later.
castaway have fun
Aankhen`` Thanks. :-)
theorbtwo Later, Aankhen -- nice chattering with you.
Aankhen`` BBL. &
autrijus rehi! 13:28
nothingmuch hola 13:32
autrijus heya nothingmuch. what's up? 13:33
QtPlatypus autrijus: Would it be approprate to place the GC API documentation I've been discussing on p6l in the Pugs documentation tree? And if so where whould be most approprate? 13:36
autrijus docs/notes/ is the default stash area.
QtPlatypus Thanks.
autrijus np :) 13:37
autrijus is, sadly, deep in $job $deadline foo
castaway ick, deadlines
autrijus right. I love the sound of them whooshing by
no such luxury this time though, it seems :)
kolibrie I work better without deadlines 13:41
autrijus me too :) 13:42
stevan $deadlines-- 13:43
stevan has several $deadlines all one after the other
castaway don't we all? just these pesky customers that need them
Limbic_Region um - are underscores supposed to work as comma like breaks in numbers as in p5?
autrijus Limbic_Region: I have no idea. so I presume "default yes"
Limbic_Region if so - then there is a parse bug 13:44
autrijus nod
Limbic_Region ?eval for 1 .. 1000 { } 'foo'
evalbot6 'foo'
Limbic_Region ?eval for 1 .. 1_000 { } 'foo'
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&_000"
autrijus tests welcome
Limbic_Region yeah yeah yeah 13:45
Limbic_Region was actually looking into an apparent rand() bug
autrijus :)
Limbic_Region I will see what I can do - time permitting 13:46
autrijus the fix belong on src/Pugs/Parser/Number.hs line 89
somewhat tricky though, as 1__2 is legal but 1__2_ is not
hrm, wait, it is legal 13:48
castaway (careful with "as comma", thats a dot over here :)
autrijus even 1_______._______ is legal
craziness.
castaway fugly ,) 13:49
autrijus indeed
PerlJam What's crazy is that 1_____._____3 == 1.3
castaway which evaluates to 1 ? 13:50
that too
autrijus ok, fixed. 13:51
committing
theorbtwo Eh, it's just s/_//g, AFAIK. What's so complicated | crazy about that? 13:56
QtPlatypus theorbtwo: Its not the stripping, its the parsing of numbers. 13:57
autrijus also, _1 does not work
but 0x_1 does
(which I got wrong, so still fixing) 13:58
hm 13:59
0x
works
as "0"
even more craziness.
castaway boggles :) 14:00
autrijus I give up full emulation for now :) 14:01
autrijus checks in the common case
Limbic_Region sorry - had $work 14:03
so now that it is fixed, I will write a test if/when I get a chance
but now I have a question about rand()
how large a sample, statistically speaking, should I need to see if there is a flaw when choosing 1 .. 10 randomly 14:04
theorbtwo Hm? Are you implementing your own RNG, or just using Haskell's?
autrijus theorbtwo: I'm using System.Random
?eval rand(2)
evalbot6 1.7793987013351635 14:05
autrijus ?eval rand(2)
evalbot6 0.9534177356291138
theorbtwo In that case 1) You shouldn't need to do /too/ much testing of that. 2) Doing good testing of it is hard. 14:08
Start with a chi-squared test.
Limbic_Region ok - it looks like the anomoly is going away with a large enough sample size 14:09
svnbot6 r6280 | autrijus++ | * Allow underlines inbetween digits: 0xFF_FF etc.
r6280 | autrijus++ | * Trailing underline works too.
r6280 | autrijus++ | * Leading underline currently unsupported; Perl5's "0x__"
r6280 | autrijus++ | and "0x" are not yet available.
Limbic_Region what I was seeing with a smaller sample size was the equivalent of flipping a coin and getting heads 8 times in a row 14:10
QtPlatypus Limbic_Region: That is possable. Even a ballence coin will do that. 14:12
Limbic_Region out of curiosity - does p5 have tests specifically designed for parse errors? Such as the 1_000 vs 1000 thing?
QtPlatypus - I know, which is why I was asking how large a sample was needed to even out the distribution before you could say statistically the coin was fixed 14:13
Limbic_Region left his statistics books at home (or in Maine come to think of it)
theorbtwo There's no such thing as "statistically certian" -- the sample size depends on how sure you want to be. 14:14
...and my web browser is being obnixious again.
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - you are mixing theory and practicality - when you start applying the results of the statistical analysis to the real world you can be certain that there is a flaw 14:16
because you don't get an infinite number of flips
PerlJam Limbic_Region: um ... where's the parse error in 1_000 vs 1000 ?
QtPlatypus Limbic_Region: Hold on I have a copy of the art of computer programing, it has a chaper on this.
Limbic_Region PerlJam - it was just fixed
see 6280
autrijus stops checking pugs store report every half hour ;)
PerlJam oh, I see what you're saying (just looked at this window and took your query out of context) 14:17
Limbic_Region autrijus - you haven't written a WWW::Mechanize script to do that for you
autrijus ...it's always $0.00, not particuarly exciting
Limbic_Region: that's a good idea.
Limbic_Region hates coding anything web related but thanks petdance and others for nifty tools like WWW::Mechanize 14:18
theorbtwo does some googling, finds that he's forgotten an awful lot of stats. 14:19
QtPlatypus find the bit that he was looking for
theorbtwo L~R: Re mixing theory and practicality, I don't think I am. 14:20
QtPlatypus Knuth suggest 1000 as a minim for a computer chi-square test 14:21
Limbic_Region *shrug*
theorbtwo If you tell me you want to be 99% certian that your coin is fair, I can tell you that you should flip it N times.
If you tell me you want to be 100% certian, I can tell you that you should go home. 14:22
Limbic_Region I guess I am not being clear 14:23
there either is or isn't a flaw
the statistics can't prove that there is or isn't with 100% certainty 14:24
but in the real world, you can find out for sure
the statistics just give you an idea of weather or not to bother looking
QtPlatypus Limbic_Region: Its a algorthimic RPG. By some definitions its inherently flawed.
theorbtwo In the real world you can't find out anything for sure -- you can just be reasonably certian. 14:25
You can even be unreasonably certian.
Limbic_Region a set of crap die is either loaded or not
theorbtwo I'm not even certian there's a real world at all.
Limbic_Region well, neither am I 14:26
theorbtwo Intentionally loaded is easy to find out.
Limbic_Region exactly
anyway - I have to wander off for $work
theorbtwo A flaw in the dice that makes them not quite fair is a lot harder.
I once had a dice that wasn't fair from a manufacturing error. 14:27
QtPlatypus nods "How much do these dice differ from a set of perfect dice"
theorbtwo: How did you discover that?
theorbtwo Qt: Rolled it a fair number of times, noted occourances. 14:28
Also, examined the dice, noticed one of the sides wasn't flat.
QtPlatypus nods.
Then started using it to cheat at RPGs? 14:29
:D
theorbtwo Thought about it, Qt. 14:32
I don't remember if it was a d6 or a d10.
In any case, I find roll-every-3-seconds RPGs annoying.
fglock_ stevan: ping 14:33
autrijus: ping 14:35
autrijus fglock_: pong 14:37
fglock_ the Scalar object is a kind of proxy to it's Value? Such as $x++ calls increment on it's value 14:38
autrijus hm, a value never has state, so that's not quite that
$x++ calls increment on the scalar, which FETCH its value, remember that value, do something magically incrementing, store it back, returns the rememberd value. 14:39
fglock_ but I can't implement every possible method on Scalar, so I was thinking of something like an autoload 14:40
I implemented $value.increment as a function that returns a new value 14:41
autrijus that is fine 14:42
Limbic_Region pardon my ignorance and my intrusion and interest in premature optimizations but ... 14:43
will prefix increments be more efficient than postfix as in C and p5 ?
and if so, will the optimizer silently convert postfix to prefix when/where possible? 14:44
fglock_ Limbic_Region: I don't think it is possible to see any difference at this point 14:45
because of the object overhead
autrijus: so a Scalar has to respond to map, grep, join, increment, decrement ... - it depends on what is stored inside it 14:47
autrijus fglock_: aye
fglock_ is there a 'default' method in the metamodel, that could be used to dispatch unimplemented methods? 14:51
autrijus yes, see AUTO* 14:52
AUTOMETH is probably what you're looking for. 14:53
Limbic_Region is finishing up a test for _ in numbers but I have this vague recollection that _ wasn't the only separator that could be used? 14:56
autrijus it probably is 14:57
fglock_ is a Scalar more or less like a "rw" Reference?
autrijus fglock_: a scalar is exactly a rw reference. a tieable scalar is something more. 14:58
(a tieable scalar is a rw reference that can optionally hold an associated object)
fglock_ but references should not auto-deref, otherwise they would be just like the value they point to 15:03
autrijus fglock_: right, but scalar automagically deref when a value is demanded 15:04
i.e. it delegates FETCH and method calls transparently.
it's also very confusing.
(but it seems all languages derived from C shares this confusion) 15:05
fglock_ and a Reference doesn't do that, right?
autrijus a refernce does that if it's pointing to a non-scalar container.
but does not do that if it's pointing to a scalar container.
a scalar container points to values; reference points to containers.
so they are also differently typed. 15:06
fglock_ so "\1" is the same as "1", because a reference to a value is flattened? 15:07
autrijus no. 15:08
\1 first creates a constant scalar container
holding the value 1
and then create a reference
pointing to that container
it's now pinting to a scalar container
so is _not_ flattened.
fglock_ ok 15:09
thanks autrijus - I'm going for lunch now & 15:10
autrijus np :)
Khisanth hmm 15:14
autrijus: if you have $foo = \1; and $bar = \1; will they both be refering to the same scalar?
autrijus Khisanth: the answer is "we make no guarantee" :) 15:15
consequently, "1 =:= 1" is either ill-timed, or undefined. 15:16
PerlJam "ill-timed"? I like that :) 15:17
autrijus er. ill-typed.
thinko.
theorbtwo I think implementation-dependent is the best way to handle it. 15:20
That, or false.
autrijus *nod*
theorbtwo 0 but true =:= 0 must be false.
autrijus sure, that's w/o doubt.
"0 but true" is not a intrinsic anyway.
it's a fully boxed Int object
Limbic_Region autrijus - underbars are allowed in any kind of number (hex, binary, floating point, etc) - does your fix work in all those cases? 15:21
theorbtwo Hm, I assumed 0 was an Int, not an int, but come to think of it there's no reason for it to be.
autrijus Limbic_Region: yes, but not 0x_ 15:23
Limbic_Region: pugs consider 0x to be prefix
but perl5 considers it part of number
Limbic_Region ok - waiting for Pugs to finish compiling so I can verify all the tests I have currently pass 15:25
3.14_15_926 will parse just fine where as 3._1415 will fail correct? 15:26
?eval for 1 .. 1_0 { } 'foo' 15:27
evalbot6 'foo'
Limbic_Region ?eval for 1 .. 3.14_15 { } 'foo' 15:28
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&_15"
Limbic_Region autrijus - looks like it needs some work
?eval my $foo = 3.14 + 3.1_4; $foo 15:29
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "_" expecting digit, exponent, term postfix, operator, ">>+|<<", ">>+^<<", ">>~|<<", ">>~^<<", ">>?|<<", ">>+<<", ">>-<<", ">>~<<", "\187+|\171", "\187+^\171", "\187~|\171", "\187~^\171", "\187?|\171", "\187+\171", "\187-\171", "\187~\171", "+|", "+^", "~|", "~^", "?|", "+", "-", "~", ";" or end of input
ods15 ugh
theorbtwo Is evalbot running an up-to-date version? 15:30
Limbic_Region well - it croaked before on 1 .. 1_0 so I think so
?eval my $foo = 10 + 1_000; $foo 15:31
evalbot6 \1010
theorbtwo OK then.
ods15 hmm, didn't know there's an eval bot here
what happens if i do '?eval exit()' ?
Limbic_Region TIAS 15:32
?eval exit()
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exit"
ods15 i'm guessing that means "try it and see"
Limbic_Region yep
ods15 ?eval exec "nil"
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exec"
ods15 ?eval system "ls"
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&system"
ods15 ?eval $$
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "$" expecting "::"
Limbic_Region ods15 - it isn't a "safe" bot
err - it is a "safe" bot 15:33
ods15 hehe
?eval 3+5
evalbot6 8
ods15 ?eval fork
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&fork"
ods15 cool
Limbic_Region ods15 - the source code is available in the distribution 15:34
if you would like to find some flaws in it - please look there
ods15 nah, maybe later. and what distrobution?
autrijus ods15: svn.openfoundry.org/pugs is the svn repo 15:35
ods15 hmm, what's pugs.. 15:36
sounds like "perl bugs"
PerlJam boogles that anyone would be here and not know what pugs is
Limbic_Region autrijus - I am going to check in the test for the numbers and underscores with pugs breaking - hope that is ok
QtPlatypus pugs -> perl6 users golfing systems.
(Please remove the extra s's) 15:37
ods15 PerlJam: for a while, i thought pugs was a perl6 bug tracking system
Limbic_Region well - that is as soon as pugs is finished compiling
theorbtwo ods15: Pugs is an implementation of perl6.
autrijus Limbic_Region: fixed, committing
ods15 i know that now :P
i'm just goofing
bug for quite a while i was here i didn't know that 15:38
anyway bbl
QtPlatypus thinks its a pun on hugs, a hascal implimentation.
autrijus s/hascal/haskell/ but yes.
I didn't know what pugs are when I came up with the name. 15:39
Limbic_Region autrijus - alright - test will be comitted sometime later today then as I need to do $work now and another rebuild will take forever
autrijus I had to google it ;)
Limbic_Region: "make unoptimised"
Limbic_Region: but thanks!
svnbot6 r6281 | autrijus++ | * recognize underscores in fractional part, too. 16:16
r6281 | autrijus++ | Limbic_Region++ for reporting this.
r6282 | autrijus++ | * cosmetic cleanup to STATUS
kgftr|konobi thegestalt.org/simon/perl/wholecpan.html - Autrijus is 1 module off 100!!! 16:33
Aankhen`` Just a note: I'm going out of town on Friday, will be back around the beginning of next month. 16:34
autrijus kgftr|konobi: it depends on how you count :)
fglock re metamodel1: is there a simple way to obtain the class and class name of an object? 16:35
svnbot6 r6283 | fglock++ | * perl5/ runtime: updated TODO; tests
r6284 | fglock++ | * perl5/ runtime: renamed directories
autrijus fglock: .ref perhaps? stevan had not implemented it iirc 16:36
Aankhen`` Is AUTOMETH like AUTOLOAD?
autrijus .ref is the class, and .ref.name would be name (iirc, not 100% sure)
fglock I'm implementing .ref :)
autrijus Aankhen``: yes, but only for methods
Aankhen`` I figured that part out all by myself. ;-)
What I didn't figure out, though, was whether it should be declared as a sub or a method. 16:37
PerlJam Isn't AUTOMETH mostly for introducing method names and AUTOMETHDEF for actually introducing the method
?
PerlJam has hazy memory
autrijus PerlJam is correct. 16:43
Aankhen`` So how does it work?
(in other words: example? :-D)
autrijus Aankhen``: S10 :)
and A12 iirc. 16:44
A12 is like Finnegan's Wake -- _everything_ is in it
Aankhen`` Heh. 16:45
I hope A12 gives actual examples.
Apparently not. :-( 16:46
PerlJam A12 is like a dream of what could be. Only the dream needs to be specced. 16:47
autrijus guido mailed back saying that he appreciates the pugs project, but alas, he does not have time to participate. 16:49
oh well, one less entry in AUTHORS :)
PerlJam er, what exactly would he have done?
autrijus PerlJam: I don't know, perl6->python backend perhaps? 16:50
...or the other way around
PerlJam yeah, that sounds slightly better.
I can't really imagine the first one.
autrijus mm? python bytecode is not unlike parrot bytecode. 16:52
so it's actually the easier one
Aankhen`` QtPlatypus++ # GC API 17:02
svnbot6 r6285 | fglock++ | * perl5/ object .id() works
fglock I found out how to get the Class from the object, now I need to get the MetaClass from the Class... 17:06
found it: ::dispatch( ::meta( $p->ref ), 'name' ) 17:10
autrijus ooh there are helicopters from helsinki to talinn 17:18
regular commuting 'copters
wolverian one just went down a week ago or so.
autrijus er. 17:19
not very encouraging
wolverian passengers and two pilots died.
no, not very. :)
autrijus reconsiders
wolverian but then again, they haven't had problems before, and they've flown for quite a while now.
the fast ships are nice, too, as long as the wind doesn't make the sea too choppy. 17:20
fglock can I get a Class from a MetaClass?
autrijus fglock: well, they should be the same thing when you are working on the backend 17:32
svnbot6 r6286 | autrijus++ | * Single-argument calls with object as the argument should 17:33
r6286 | autrijus++ | dispatch to method:
r6286 | autrijus++ | close $fh # same as $fh.close
r6286 | autrijus++ | Reported by Yiyi Hu.
r6287 | fglock++ | * perl5/ - added 'Ref' class skeleton.
r6287 | fglock++ | will need more info on the MetaModel to make this work
autrijus fglock: consult stevan for more information :)
(as I need to sleep now, sadly)
fglock autrijus: I tried calling metaclass->new, but it doesn't return an instance
autrijus $ALL_CLASSES{$name} ? 17:35
you can get name from metaclass surely?
or identifier
fglock yes, name works
autrijus cool 17:36
fglock $Perl6::Class::ALL_CLASSES{$name} seems to work 17:39
yes it does :) 17:40
autrijus :))
fglock++ # rock on!
no journal today, too tired... /me waves &
fglock good night
Aankhen`` Nite autrijus.
Supaplex speaking of which, $fh.close, fh.close and fh.close() are identical, are they not? I know .js handles foo and foo() differently. foo() calls the method, and foo returns the source for that method. 18:13
svnbot6 r6288 | fglock++ | * perl5/ Value - code cleanup
wolverian fh.close? what's fh? 18:19
Qiang file handler 18:22
wolverian fh.close in perl6 is the same as fh().close()
I'm not sure if that was what Supaplex asked, though :)
kolibrie I'm looking at WWW-Kontent, but get a pugs parse error when trying to make_root 18:26
unexpected "{"
expecting trait, ";" or end of input
at ./WWW/Kontent/Store.pm line 188, column 30
which is this line:
class WWW::Kontent::Revision {
any ideas?
fglock I've seen this many times - it means there is an error _anywhere_ in the class 18:27
kolibrie oh joy!
fglock the best way to find out is to diff with a working version 18:28
kolibrie well, it parsed with an older pugs, but had a runtime error, so I updated my pugs
svnbot6 r6289 | Limbic_Region++ | Added tests for parsing numbers with underscore 19:06
autrijus fglock:, kolibrie
try taking off the "try"
in Parser.hsline 301
that may give much more accurate error messages.
(it makes the class pasing rule non-backtrack)
I don't know whether that will cause more problems elsewhere though. try different tries :) 19:07
autrijus goes back to sleep &
kolibrie ok
thanks for the hint autrijus
autrijus np :)
19:19 spinclad is now known as spinclad__ 19:20 spinclad__ is now known as spinclad___
kolibrie ah, error is now: 19:21
unexpected "f"
expecting digit, "_", exponent, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
at ./WWW/Kontent/Store.pm line 205, column 71
which is this line: 19:22
method driver(Request $r) returns Void { ._fill_revclass(); $._revclass.driver_($r) }
19:22 spinclad___ is now known as spinclad
kolibrie so the ._fill_revclass() is not understood 19:22
any ideas? 19:23
theorbtwo Hm, get rid of that leading _, and see if it still parses? 19:25
It's possible that it's thinking that should be a number, like ._3, meaning .3 -- autrijus was just working on that earlier today.
kolibrie tries 19:26
autrijus right, exactly.
sigh.
fixing. 19:27
kolibrie yep, seems to be true, parses fine without the _ 19:28
autrijus fixed. committing
kolibrie autrijus++ # fixing bugs while sleeping 19:29
autrijus that seems to be my specialty
theorbtwo should remember not to use aut's name while he is (theoretically) sleeping. 19:34
kolibrie waits for aut's commit to be available 19:37
autrijus it's ambiguous. 19:39
say 1.__e4
in p5 it's clearly 10000
I have _no_ idea about p6.
thoughts?
kolibrie also has _no_ idea 19:40
autrijus maybe disallowing underscores in fractional parts?
I think that's sanest.
theorbtwo Or disallowing underscores just before or after the . in floating-point numbers. 19:41
autrijus before is fine.
1.e__4
is 10000 in perl5. 19:42
I'm pretty sure we want it to be a method call in p6.
0x1.fe_ff_ff_f9
;)
theorbtwo I think so too... and that wouldn't be under my rule.
autrijus so I think disallow is safer now.
theorbtwo That looks like a number to me.
0x1.fe_ff... that is.
autrijus but isn't it a method called fe_ff_ff_f9? 19:43
theorbtwo That'd be a really silly name for a method.
autrijus 0xFF.dead;
0xFF.add;
theorbtwo Point.
kolibrie yep, must be a method
theorbtwo It doesn't come up for anything but hex, so it's not that important to me. 19:44
autrijus 1.44_44_12
theorbtwo Hex fractions don't seem that useful.
autrijus is a number clearly
theorbtwo Can't be a method -- method names can't begin with digits.
autrijus 1.e10
is again ambiguous.
and it doesn't even involve underscore.
theorbtwo Method. If you want number, write 1e10 with the same meaning.
autrijus ok. so if it can be a method 19:45
it is a method
integral almost need a numeric quote operator with delimiters, q:number"1.e10"
autrijus does that sound okay?
theorbtwo I think so, yeah.
kolibrie if ambiguous, choose method over number, sounds good 19:46
autrijus r6290. enjoy 19:50
it passes parsing_numbers.t 19:51
more tests welcome there.
&
kolibrie thank you 19:53
svnbot6 r6290 | autrijus++ | * Disallow underscore and 'e' after dots, as that conflicts with method
r6290 | autrijus++ | name resolution. Reported by kolibrie.
r6290 | autrijus++ | 1.e10 # method call
r6290 | autrijus++ | 1._10 # ditto
spinclad the longest-possible-token rule, common among languages, would want those to be numbers. 19:59
don't know if perl*, and perl6 in particular, has that rule, though. 20:00
Limbic_Region autrijus - according to perldata underscores are only allowed between digits 20:02
for p5 anyway
sorry it took so long to commit - $work has been busy
spinclad 0x1.e10 is ambiguous three ways -- is that e a digit, exponent mark, or alpha?
Limbic_Region and besides - I am officially not working on Pugs anymore
;-)
20:05 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
xinming hmm... $obj.update; without any arguments, Can it be written in this form, `update $obj;` 20:05
Limbic_Region yucky poo poo 20:06
Aankhen`` ?eval any<a b c d> eq "a" 20:07
evalbot6 bool::false
Aankhen`` ?eval "a" eq any(<a b c d>)
evalbot6 bool::false
Aankhen`` Hmm.
xinming hmm... In Synoposis said it's valid. But in Pugs, It won't allow you to use this.
which one should I follow please?
I've send this question to mailing list. But it doesn't seem that anyone who cared about my question. 20:08
iblech Hi :)
Aankhen`` Hi iblech. :-)
xinming iblech: hi
iblech ?eval ?(any<a b c d> eq "a")
evalbot6 bool::false
iblech Hrm
Aankhen`` iblech: Should that work?
(I would have thought it should)
iblech It should
Aankhen`` OK.
Limbic_Region it has in the past IIRC
iblech ?eval ?(any("a", "b", "c", "d") eq "a")
evalbot6 bool::true
iblech ?eval ("a", "b", "c", "d") 20:09
evalbot6 ('a', 'b', 'c', 'd')
iblech ?eval <a b c d>
evalbot6 ('a', 'b', 'c', 'd')
iblech ?eval <a b c d>[0] eq "a"
Limbic_Region ?eval any('a', 'b', 'c') eq 'a'
evalbot6 bool::true
bool::false
Aankhen`` It's not urgent... I'm converting some of my "hobby" modules to Perl 6, and a lot of other stuff doesn't work yet anyway.
?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params) { &cb.(*@params) } 20:10
evalbot6 undef
Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params) { &cb.(*@params) }; foo({ @_ }, "a", "b")
evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "@_"
Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params) { &cb.(*@params) }; foo(sub { @_ }, "a", "b")
evalbot6 ['a', 'b']
Aankhen`` Kewl.
?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params --> List) { &cb.(*@params) }; foo(sub { @_ }, "a", "b")
evalbot6 ['a', 'b']
Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params --> List) { &cb.(*@params) }; foo("a", "b"):sub { @_ } 20:11
evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "@_"
Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*&cb, *@params --> List) { &cb.(*@params) }; foo("a", "b"):(sub { @_ })
xinming ?eval ('a'|'b'|'c') eq 'a'
?eval 'a'|'b'|'c' eq 'a'
evalbot6 Error: unexpected ":" expecting word character, block construct, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
bool::false
iblech Hm, I think a slurpy code parameter makes the sub accept a adverbial block
Aankhen`` Um, sorry for the spam. I'll go back to the interactive shell.
iblech: Not a sub, then?
iblech xinming: Because of a bug in evalbot/.perl/whatever, you probably need to ?(...) your expressions 20:12
Aankhen`` OK.
iblech I mean, foo(@params):{...} would then work, probably
But I'm not the adverbial modifiers expert, we should better ask putter :) 20:13
Aankhen`` Heh, check this out: pugs> sub foo (*&cb, *@params) { "abcd" }; foo():{ @_ } <== <a b c d>
(undef, undef, undef, undef, undef)
spinclad (re: number formats) perldata doesn't make clear whether hex numbers can have a fractional part or exponent; i would guess yes based on orthogonality, no based on ambiguity. 20:14
xinming ?eval ?('a'|'b'|'c' eq 'a')
neither worked. T_T
evalbot6 bool::true
xinming iblech: can `$obj.update;` be written in this form: `update $obj;` ?
Aankhen`` xinming: update $obj:;
# perhaps that might work?
iblech xinming: Yep, I think. It's a special case. If you've got more than one argument, you need the colon, though 20:15
i.e. update $obj will work, but update $obj, $foo won't. To make it work, you'd have to write update $obj: $foo
svnbot6 r6291 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/parsing_numbers.t: Added tests for 1.e23 etc.
r6291 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
xinming Aankhen``: I know that works. But I wonder if the example I give is also valid. 20:16
with `:`, It will work, how about without `:`?
Aankhen`` xinming: iblech just gave you the answer, didn't he? :-)
xinming iblech: hmm, So, This might be a really "small" bug in pugs. 20:17
:-)
?eval 3+5
evalbot6 8
xinming oops, It seems that the bot ignored me. :-S
or autrijus is tuning his bog.
bot. 20:18
s/bog/bot/
iblech I've thought autrijus fixed the bug?
?eval class A { method b () { "c" } }; b A.new 20:19
evalbot6 'c'
iblech :)
?eval class A { method b () { "c" } }; b A.new:
evalbot6 'c'
xinming ?eval class T { method update { 'updated'.say; } }; my T $o .= new; update $o; 20:20
evalbot6 updated bool::true
xinming Yes,It's fixed. :-)
after reading more Synoposis, I found now, the keyword package has 3 usages. one is for acting as a 'signature' for perl 5, another is for using tie, and last is used for user defined libs, Is my opinion right? 20:27
svnbot6 r6292 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/parsing_numbers.t: Added link to p6l post.
r6292 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL::PExp wasn't calling the ->as_js of the expr it contains,
r6292 | iblech++ | resulting in nothing working. Fixed.
iblech xinming: For tie, you need classes, not packages.
But the rest is ok, I think.
(And note that the difference between package and module is very blurred.) 20:28
xinming ?eval given '3' { when 1 { 1 }; when 3 { 3 };}
evalbot6 3
xinming is still wondering if the keyword package will be obsolete after perl 6 rules the world. 20:33
?eval class C { has $.a = 1; }; 20:35
I think autrijus is compiling the new version of pugs. :-)
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
iblech has with assignment doesn't parse, known bug. 20:37
Already tested for in t/oo/attributes/class.t, I think 20:38
xinming ?eval class C { has $.a; has $.b; }; my C $o .= new; $o{'a'} = 1; $o.keys; 20:41
evalbot6 Error: Not a keyed reference: VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "C"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 52}) 20:42
iblech spinclad: Luke replied to my post on p6l WRT the ambiguity of parsing numbers -- want to reply with your "but it against the longest-token rule"?
$o.keys should definitely not work, unless C isa Hash.
But I did read something in one of the apocalypses that $o<a> should work 20:43
Not sure, though
Want to ask p6l? :)
spinclad sure
iblech Great :) 20:44
xinming iblech: in fact, I wonder if that the object is still a blessed reference :-) 20:46
blessed anonymous reference.
iblech It is blessed, but (by default) it's not a hashref, but a P6Opaque 20:47
P6Opaque is like a hashref, only that it has got compile-time typo checks and a much more compact storage and much more :)
xinming hmm. wish the class is a blessed hashref, then, some perl 5 codes might be easier to migerate to perl 6 20:52
?eval class C { has $.a; has $.b; }; my $t = C.bless({'a' => 1 }); $t.keys;
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bless"
xinming ?eval class C { has $.a; has $.b; }; my $class = "C"; my $t = $class.bless({'a' => 1 }); $t.keys; 20:54
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bless"
iblech This will probably work eventually.
xinming iblech: will the $object be a hashref always by default in perl 6? 20:56
iblech No. But you can use .bless to override that default 20:57
Because with hashrefs, it's not possibly to do compile-type typo checks and have a much more compact storage etc. :)
xinming so my $c = $class.bless; will do what I want, without specify the bless({}); ? 20:59
iblech No, you do need the {}
Sorry if I was unclear
xinming iblech: well, It's Ok if your unclear, I must thank you for your patient. :-) 21:03
svnbot6 r6293 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/parsing_numbers.t: Added Luke's response.
r6293 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Probably restored to fully working :)
r6293 | iblech++ | * PIL::PStmt, PIL::PPos, and PIL::PExp all bubble up the ->{CC} to their
r6293 | iblech++ | inner objects -- i.e. PIL::PApp will get the ->{CC} even if it's packed in
r6293 | iblech++ | a PIL::PExp.
r6293 | iblech++ | * PIL::PVal, PIL::Params, PIL::Subs: Misc. smaller fixes.
iblech np :)
Aankhen`` goes to sleep. 21:04
iblech Night Aankhen`` :)
Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*%_) { %_ }; my $bar = "_"; foo($bar => "bar")
evalbot6 {('bar' => undef)} 21:05
iblech Oh and we'll miss you :(
Aankhen`` I'll miss you guys too!
Anyway.
Must sleep.
G'night.
xinming ?eval class C { has $.a; my $.a; }; 21:07
evalbot6 undef
xinming ?eval class C { my $.a; has $.a; };
evalbot6 undef
iblech my $.foo and our $.foo are not yet implemented (IIRC), you'll have to wait for the new PIL runcore which uses the metamodel 21:08
fglock I'm trying to understand what's the point of having References, is everything is auto-dereferenced
iblech Not all things auto-dereference anymore, only refs to aggregates 21:09
I.e. (\3).isa(Ref) is true, but (\@array).isa(Ref) and ([1,2,3]).isa(Ref) are false
xinming hmm, which will be used for accessor method?
iblech fglock: See www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/22532 21:10
xinming: Dunno. Probably it's an error to declare two "$.a"s
xinming iblech: hmm. In fact, I wonder something what from larry thought. :-) 21:11
fglock in order to "deref one level" the dereference will have to be done by the compiler - the object doesn't know which level it is, right? 21:13
xinming iblech: hmm, One is public attribute, another is the class attribute, I think they can have the same name in the class. though, don't know how larry thinks of this. 21:14
iblech fglock: I'm not sure I've understood you right, but yes, the object does not never which level it is 21:15
And BTW, if you want to turn an autodereffing ref into a non-autodereffing ref, you've to use tied: $arrayref.isa(Ref) is false, but tied($arrayref).isa(Ref) is true
(But "tied" is the wrong name for this operation, as tied operates on containers, not values. I've asked Larry about this, but the topic got warnocked.) 21:16
xinming: Ask p6l :)
fglock I mean, \\3 dereferences to \3, which doesn't dereference 21:17
iblech No \\3 does not autoderef
Only refs to aggregates autoderef
And \3 is not an aggregate, so \\3 won't autoderef 21:18
But I may be wrong of course -- you might want to ask p6l to be certain :)
fglock [[ 1,2,3 ]] dereferences to [ 1,2,3 ], which doesn't dereference to Array
iblech No, [[ 1,2,3 ]] derefs to ([1,2,3]) 21:19
And this is simply an Array containing one elem
fglock I need to write tests for Ref and Scalar - this will help 21:24
xinming iblech: what does p6l mean pleaes? 21:25
iblech xinming: Oh, p6l is short for perl6-language, the mailinglist on which Perl 6's design is discussed
xinming: See dev.perl.org/perl6/lists/
(Similarily, p6c is perl6-compiler and p6i is perl6-internals.) 21:26
fglock: Yep -- before implementing autoderef in PIL2JS, I wrote t/var/autoderef.t
fglock: You might be able to port some of autoderef.t to Perl 5 21:27
xinming iblech: thanks 21:28
iblech xinming: Sure, np 21:29
xinming ?eval my $var = 1; ('a' => $var) = "value"; 21:30
what does this mean really.
evalbot6 ('a' => \'value')
iblech This is a special case -- if you assign something to a pair value (not a container holding a pair!), then the pair's .value will be modified 21:32
I.e. $var is "value" after the assignment
xinming ?eval my $var = 1; ( $var => 'a' ) = "value" ; 21:33
evalbot6 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "a"
iblech Oh and while we're at it, if you use :=, you're allowed to put the usual subroutine signature syntax in the left hand side
I.e.
(*$first_thing, *@remaining_things) := foo()
xinming ?eval my $var = 1; ( $var => 'a' ) := "value" ; 21:35
evalbot6 Error: Cannot bind this as lhs: Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 16 1 28) (App (Var "&infix:=>") Nothing [Var "$var",Cxt (CxtItem (mkType "Str")) (Val (VStr "a"))])
iblech This is another special case, allowing things like 21:36
(foo => $foo, bar => $bar) := (bar => calc_bar(), foo => calc_foo())
but it isn't implemented yet
(BTW, allowed things like (+$foo, ?$bar) := baz() aren't even parsed currently.) 21:38
IIRC S06 has got more details 21:39
fglock I'm reading autoderef.t - yes it helps :) 21:40
iblech Great :) 21:42
svnbot6 r6294 | iblech++ | * STATUS: Noted that I'm currently converting PIL2JS to use -CPerl5. 21:45
r6294 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: More fixes in PIL::Subs, PIL::PApp, and Prelude::JS::Operators;
r6294 | iblech++ | thanks to -CPerl5 for allowing a *much* faster edit/compile/test cycle. :)
iblech Ok, need to sleep now. 21:46
Night all :)
spinclad i've sent the p6l thread my longest-token-rule note, but it hasn't shown up yet; i suppose it's waiting to be vetted as non-spam?
fglock spinclad: maybe - my mails take a day to show 21:47
svnbot6 r6295 | fglock++ | * perl5/ 'Ref' works (but hacky) 22:34

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