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Set by stevan on 15 August 2005.
buu erxz.com/log.pl 08:00
or something
Can't make the first day work, but is that what you had in mind? 08:02
spinclad good enuf in a flood 08:03
^F is my friend 08:04
nothingmuch forgot what ^F is
form feed?
buu Find in firefox?
nothingmuch oh
geoffb Mozilla "find in page"
spinclad yeh, that
buu Ahah, fixy first page.
nothingmuch thought terminal
buu s/page/day/
nothingmuch colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log_search/perl6
buu Interesting 08:05
autrijus rehi
nothingmuch hi ho
autrijus so I was hacking here in the hallways
and brendon just showed up suddenly 08:06
and I gave him a T-shirt and talked for half an hour :-))
nothingmuch brendon?
autrijus the one guilty for javascript and spidermonkey
nothingmuch ah
spinclad hi autrijus-san 08:07
autrijus he mentioned they are investigating the Rhino continuations class for spidermonkey
which would be lovely
nothingmuch woot
autrijus and also toying with the idea of having firefox work with system perl python ruby etc as XUL scripting
...and I updated him on parrot -- turns out their impression was still two yearsD ago 08:08
nothingmuch that is local UI bindings, e.g. GTK, but based on the FF implementation
autrijus nothingmuch: right
nothingmuch s/$/?/
āˆ† $parrot.at(Time::Piece->new("two years ago")), $parrot.now 08:09
geoffb hi, autrijus, nothingmuch
nothingmuch hi ho geoffb
there's a unicode char called 'n-ary circled dot operator' 08:10
perhaps that's hyper method call on boxed types?
geoffb nothingmuch, I'd be interested in that delta as well
autrijus, what did you tell them?
coral ooo, XUL scripting :) autrijus++ 08:11
spinclad (brendon++?)
nothingmuch was actually wrong, i inserted "Increment" instead of "Delta" because i found the triangle under " 08:12
Mathematical Symbols" instead of the greek script
geoffb looked close enough in my window . . . .
spinclad i think you got it right by accident then 08:13
difference == increment in a way
nothingmuch really? why is it "increment"? I would have expected it to be named otherwise
nothingmuch should have gone with |$parrot.now - $parrot.then| 08:14
buu Hrm. Can we have a 'then' operator?
spinclad x1-x0 is what you increment x0 by to get the next
nothingmuch btw, do we have circumfix:<| |>
woh
oh
buu: please explain what it does
buu nothingmuch: scalar comma operator 08:15
nothingmuch ?
buu || is to 'or' as , is to 'then'
nothingmuch sub &infix:<then> ($lhs, $rhs) { ... }
buu Excellent 08:16
nothingmuch is this a cause and effect then, or a this after that then?
buu 'this after that'
nothingmuch oh, i see why i got confused =)
?eval my $x = 1, 2, 3; $x
evalbot_7198 [1, 2, 3]
spinclad i was thinking if..then, and thinking either ?? or !!
nothingmuch errm
?eval my $x = scalar 1, 2, 3; $x
evalbot_7198 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
buu Dear god. 08:17
nothingmuch ?eval my $x = +(1, 2, 3); $x
evalbot_7198 \3
buu ?eval $x=42,$y=53;
nothingmuch why is it useful, btw?
evalbot_7198 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
buu nothingmuch: The same places we use scalar commas
nothingmuch i don't know where we use scalar commas
geoffb nothingmuch, '$broken++, next if /broken/;' 08:18
nothingmuch that's void comma
buu Same difference.
nothingmuch does it behave the same?
spinclad if do this then do that then do theother else do something else
nothingmuch list and scalar comma behave the same in void context, don't they?
spinclad EAMBIG 08:19
nothingmuch ?eval sub &infix:<then> ($lhs, $rhs) { $rhs }; my $x = 4 then 2; $x
evalbot_7198 Error: unexpected "&" expecting subroutine parameters, trait or block
geoffb Um, I think it's not so much that they behave the same but rather there would be no way to tell the difference
nothingmuch ?eval sub infix:<then> ($lhs, $rhs) { $rhs }; my $x = 4 then 2; $x
evalbot_7198 \2
geoffb (so same by default)
nothingmuch brb 08:20
buu Apparently scalar commas behave differently now
The main difference was the return values.
geoffb (count of items v. last item, yes?) 08:21
buu Er, no? 08:23
I'm not sure what commas are doing in p6, apparently they create annonymous arrays
nothingmuch buu: no 08:26
it's that arrayish things, when assigned to a scalar become an array ref 08:27
i think
wait
?eval my $x = +(5, 6, 7); $x
evalbot_7198 \3
nothingmuch okay
quick answer: there is no scalar comma
maybe it's a pugs bug
maybe not
The scalar comma , now constructs a list reference of its operands. You have to use a [-1] subscript to get the last one. 08:28
dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html
first hit for "comma"
you were right
?eval my $x = (5, 6, 7)[-1]; $x
evalbot_7198 \7
nothingmuch anyway, for 99% of the cases it doesn't really matter
I don't know of any use of the scalar comma as something you want to get a void out of
for sequencing operations you can still use it (scalar or list comma - it doesn't matter) in void context (maybe there's even the void context comma, implemented exactly like the then operator i just gave above) 08:29
but mose '$foo++, next if cond' can be redone as given/when 08:30
for @list -> $x { given $x { when cond { $counter++ } } }
svnbot6 r7199 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : resync with final Perl 5 version 1.6.2, which is now on CPAN ... the next anticipated edits to this perl 6 version is to ensure it still compiles/executes correctly under the current Pugs 08:34
nothingmuch amazing: www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=494663 08:35
buu Perlmonks is powered by the souls of damned orphans. 08:50
geoffb OK, I've been up way too damn long 08:52
time to attempt sleep again
g'night 08:53
spinclad night geoff
me too, soon
autrijus geoffb: g'nite! 08:55
sorry I was abducted by aliens
or at least an earthling with an alien mind :)
spinclad that tends to happen at some of these conferences 08:56
autrijus geoffb: I told brendon, quite truthfully, about Dans' absence and the recent revival attempts
spinclad but only the best ones
autrijus shared runtime is still a win and they are still not at all comfortable with mono
and python is not targetting spidermonkey2 any time soon 08:57
so still a chance for parrot if pirate can somehow show concrete results.
nothingmuch somehow doubts parrot will get stuff soon 09:13
it seems like it's doing maintenance jobs
not really developing
spinclad leo's branch has finally made trunk. does that mean pugs could start targeting it again? 09:17
(as if nobody had enough work already)
broquaint Will parrot ever be finished? 09:19
pdcawley Not if it keeps chasing performance before correctness. 09:20
Oops, hit return.
autrijus spinclad: yes, it means we can restart targetting.
broquaint Hrm, then it might be some time ...
autrijus before then it was impossible -- the function calling convention keeps changing in a hourly basis
nothingmuch TSa is silly 09:25
"i would call intentional exceptions terrorism"
pdcawley No!
WTF!
nothingmuch me doesn't understand why he insists on calling errors exceptions
pdcawley I'm not sure 'silly' begins to cover that.
nothingmuch when the two, taken most literally, mean what they mean and not wha the wants them to mean 09:26
pdcawley Thomas "Humpty Dumpty" Sandlass
Words mean precisely what he wants them to mean.
nothingmuch heh
so, have you forgiven me yet?
pdcawley Nah. You're unforgiveable. 09:27
; grins.
nothingmuch is that the name of a pop song or something like that?
pdcawley Oops, irc is not a mud. Muds are not irc.
Unbelievable.
nothingmuch ttp://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exception 09:28
spinclad unforgetable
nothingmuch One that is excepted, especially a case that does not conform to a rule or generalization.
pdcawley Someone should do Unforgiveable as well.
nothingmuch dictionary.reference.com/search?q=error
The condition of having incorrect or false knowledge. 09:29
when an error happens, an exception in the normal control flow is used to notify code which can make the decision of what to do next
scook0 so an erroneous situation causes an exception to normal control flow... 09:30
nothingmuch yep 09:33
there 09:39
nothingmuch hopes he's formalized it
scook0: i've expanded a lot on that
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/23276 09:40
spinclad happily backjournals amid the backlogging 11:03
nothingmuch bah 11:08
scook0 huh?
nothingmuch i wonder if TSa has actually used exceptions in code or not
he seems to be very confused not about how they work, but how they save programmer time 11:09
scook0 to be honest, I rarely even try to understand what he's talking about any more 11:11
nothingmuch in the use fatal err fail thread, he 11:12
's making some point
which i think is wrong
but come to think of it, i have no clue why he reached that point
wolverian I agree that culturally, exceptions are more like errors than events
I also agree that that is wrong. :) 11:13
(so I agree with both of you, I think)
nothingmuch wolverian: i'm not contradicting that 11:14
all I'm saying is that till now exceptions have only been dealing with errors 11:15
but exceptions are just a way of leaping up to known sanity, as a reaction to an event
wolverian right.
nothingmuch and the only events we're used to reacting to, with an exception, are errors 11:16
scook0 I still don't understand what point TSa is trying to make 11:17
nothingmuch wrt 'return is two orthogonal things?'?
err, take one ? out of there
scook0 not so much that bit 11:19
more the 'least thing that *defines* an exception'
nothingmuch i think he's really confusing return value things 11:20
perhaps I should explain the Either monad 11:21
and fail
vs return
hi gaal
cognominal hum, what is this Blondie thing? What the difference of purpose with PIL? 11:33
is this a PIL new generation? 11:34
wolverian I think autrijus talked about it in a recent journal
scook0 I believe Blondie is its own little independent experiment
ask nothingmuch 11:35
wolverian it is not PIL2
right; it's nothingmuch's project
scook0 it's a sandbox for testing certain compilation techniques
cognominal thunking, among other thing I have gathered... 11:36
wolverian I just love how ./configure just has to check for Fortran support when I'm compiling a C IRC client
we.hates-software.com, I guess, although it's an old hate.
cognominal yea, the world of pure ideas is so confortable 11:37
and code is so disgusting
I hope Perl6 will mitigate that
gaal hi nothingmuch 11:42
i want my brain back 11:43
nothingmuch what happenned to it?
gaal $work has been sucking it away, i feel depleted
spinclad geoffb++ # good article, expresses much of my own happiness with how things are moving lately 11:53
nothingmuch actually has a comment on that, now that i'm thinking about it 11:59
perl isn't taking all those features and assimilating the,
it's doing something deeper
the features are evaluated for usefulness
and distilled
such that perl is a very simple language
with which we can implement a vast, useful core library 12:00
with a cool language based on all the langauges listed in the article
so that the result feels like the next perl, WRT perl 5
spinclad i'm beginning to see perl6 and haskell sharing much core mechanism... 12:02
these language cores are becoming community property 12:04
nothingmuch oh, and i forgot: the result makes sure that it not only assimilates perl 5, but that it assimilates the practical features of the other languages too
spinclad or especially the ideas and structures that make them up
nothingmuch aye
kgftr|konobi theorbtwo: oioi 12:27
cognominal spinclad: "I'm beginning to see perl6 and haskell sharing much core mechanism..." I don't think there is a expliicit pattern matching system a la haskell in Perl6. Too bad, the more I learn haskell the more I like pattern matching 12:35
spinclad well, not yet anyway, at least in the surface language. i was actually thinking of the implementations; 12:39
draget $new =~ s/\$number\n//; 12:40
i've done something wrong, but can't work out what
anyone know why that doesn't work?
spinclad draget: perl5 or perl6?
draget perl5, is their a channel for 5, I didn't see it in the list 12:41
cognominal anyway, I find there is a similarity between regex and pattern matching. regex deals with chars, amd pattern matching with types. I am note sure what to think about that parallelism 12:42
draget basically i need a variables contents to be searched for and replaced with nothing 12:43
spinclad draget: several, among them #perl, #perlhelp, #perlcafe, ##perl...
draget hmmm Gaim didn't list them 12:44
QtPlatypus cognominal: It is possable to make strings of things other then chars. I wonder if its possable to make strings of types and use the regex engion to do pattern matching. 12:45
spinclad draget: #perl6 is about perl6 development, which bears only somewhat more than a historical resemblance to perl5 these days 12:46
draget oh, sorry, i'll find a different channel
cognominal QtPlatypus: indeed 12:47
perl6 regexing is very much the explicit building of a tree 12:48
spinclad cognominal: i expect pattern matching, type inference and such to be of great interest in p6l and implementation work
cognominal and this potentially branches (no pu intended) on attribute grammars and so many things
spinclad (and considering we have a goal of migrating the implementation to perl6, that calls for them in the language...)
cognominal the apocalypse on regexen convinces me that Perl6 would be great. 12:49
spinclad yeah, them too
(AGs)
cognominal but with these new insighst, may be we will see it only scratches the surface 12:50
spinclad in any case it must pass @Larry, and seeing it at work will make a significant difference with that 12:51
nothingmuch luqui: ping 13:01
Limbic_Region I am sure everyone has already seen and read autrijus and luke's journal entries at use.perl - but if you haven't, do so - exciting stuff 13:20
cognominal thx, Limbic_Region 13:24
autrijus :) 13:51
autrijus is soaking in mad techniques from GHC
PerlJam nothingmuch++ (nice analogy :) 14:00
integral hmm, is luqui's blog on one of the planets? doesn't seem to be on planetsix 14:21
svnbot6 r7200 | fglock++ | * pil-run - Junction constructor accepts either Array or ARRAY 14:30
fglock integral: use.perl.org/~luqui/journal
autrijus integral: I just suggested to obra to add it 14:36
integral thanks autrijus ! 14:47
Limbic_Region integral - planetsix? 14:48
if there is a planetsix, where is it and why isn't it listed in the planetarium at planetperl? 14:50
integral Limbic_Region: there's: planet.perl.org, planetsix.perl.org and planet.parrotcode.org 14:52
Limbic_Region I knew about 2 of the 3
autrijus it should be more prominiently displayed.
Limbic_Region and the middle one doesn't make sense - it should be planet.perl6.org 14:53
but I couldn't find it in the planetarium
autrijus www.perl6.org is owned by pair networks, Daniel Wright 14:54
Limbic_Region so planet.perlsix.org
*shrug* - It doesn't look like it aggragates from any sources I am not already reading so 14:55
autrijus er no, I mean writing daniel wright and/or pair to re-dns it 14:56
*nod*
gaal hi, need some more help with ast hacking
autrijus gaal: yo
gaal hey :)
re mergeStmts
autrijus aye 14:57
gaal remember the Label thingie? i don't see how it should go in
autrijus mm perlsix.(org|net|com) is entirely unregistered 14:58
okay...?
we had two options; annotate Stmts with another field
or invent a Label node to annotate stuff
gaal we have ruleBlockBody, wher wanted to apply the Labels 14:59
yeah
first option:
so we have Stmts !Label !Exp !Exp
but then mergeStmts has to carry the current Label over to the next Exp 15:00
mergeStmts (Stmts x1 x2) y = mergeStmts x1 (mergeStmts x2 y)
that would lose Labe information, no? 15:01
unless something like
autrijus mergeStmts (Stmts l1 x1 x2) y = mergeStmts x1 (mergeStmts l1 x2 y) 15:02
is the form
assuming y is not itself a Stmts
which will be a separate case nayways
gaal right, but ont the rhs, where does the label go?
for x1 that is
autrijus I see. 15:04
that suggests mergeStmts wants to be threading a Label with it
:: Exp -> Exp -> Reader Label Exp
or simply
:: Label -> Exp -> Exp -> Exp
the label argument would be the enclosing environment 15:05
the pragmas in effect, so to speak
and then some primitives to merge them.
it's a bit hairy.
I'll go back to my hotel now; be back in 30 mins; I've been havking all day and I'll hack some more after dinner :) 15:06
gaal enjoy dinner :) 15:07
autrijus :)
gaal (funny being in the same timezone as you :)
does some thing like mergeStmts (Stmts l1 x1 x2) y = do { env <- getRuleEnv ; local (const env{ Label = l1 }) (mergeStmts l1 x1 (mergeStmts l1 x2 y)) 15:15
make any sense?
.oO(it will when this is a Reader?)
 15:17
16:50 ods15_ is now known as ods15
putter fglock: ping/pong? 17:11
autarch seen clkao 17:23
jabbot autarch: clkao was seen 6 minutes 25 seconds ago
wolverian btw, is anyone planning a haskell implementation on perl6? :) 17:28
another thought: do grammars have default parse rules, or so? grammar Foo { ... } Foo.parse(...); 17:33
17:34 ods15_ is now known as ods15
fglock putter: pong 17:40
putter hi fglock. hmm, deep recursion in chaos. how poetic. :) running smoke... 17:48
how goes? 17:50
fglock_ putter: sorry for the delay 18:01
putter np
:)
fglock_ I implemented Junctions yesterday - I don't know if this is related to the smoke problem 18:02
I only ran small tests
putter fglock++ # Junctions!! :)
test/smoke had lots an lots of increment on undef errors. they went away when I if(0)'ed the new versions of ++ in PrimP5. 18:04
sorry :/ 18:05
fglock_ I messed a bit with ++ and -- (may be my fault then)
I was trying to fix String++
putter did it break with mm2? 18:07
fglock_ it should not break - the problem may be elsewhere. OTOH - array slices is broken 18:08
putter map too. and... lots. 18:09
fglock_ it is nice that the Prim subs didn't have to reimplemented for Junction to work
putter anything which explicity does a ref($x) eq 'Foo' needs $x->isa('Foo') 18:10
:)
fglock_ ok - I've already fixed some of those isa() 18:11
putter hi nm 18:13
fglock_++
I love smokes which are already out of date by the time they finish. :) 18:14
sense of rapid progress 18:15
is misc_junctions.t supposed to run a long time (4+ minutes)? lots of tests are currently non-terminating, so I'm wondering whether to kill it. I don't know whether the non-terminations are due to the transition, or changes made since then. 18:18
ah, it finished. 18:19
perhaps I'm being too quick on the kill button. perhaps things are just slower. ?? 18:20
fglock_ Junctions are slow - they need to call each sub multiple times 18:22
putter ok
np
stevan: ping? 18:26
fglock_ it is possible to use threads, but it could be even slower, because the threads would be very short-lived 18:27
nothingmuch evening
putter evening nm
Limbic_Region I haven't been paying attention, but are the junctions slow because of a recursive implementation?
Q::S changed to an iterative implementation some time ago fwiw 18:28
though Q::S is quite limited in functionality compared to junctions
putter fglock_: threads in p5, eeep! p5 threads are still the "clone the universe" monsters, yes?
nothingmuch wonders why his smokes suck so much 18:29
Limbic_Region putter - COW is still in the works last I heard
putter ;) 18:31
fglock_ Limbic_Region: I'm not sure if it qualifies as iterative or recursive 18:32
Limbic_Region putter - see yapc.mongueurs.net/yapc/talk/?tid=85 for relavent information
fglock_ - well, unless it is in p5 I doubt I would be much help. Was just noting that Q::S has an iterative implementation if necessary/interested 18:33
putter Limbic_Region: tnx for link
Limbic_Region it isn't the one I was looking for btw 18:34
the one I was thinking of was more recent and focused specifically on the threading model
*shrug*
putter fglock, LR: so what is a short characterization of junctions (whatever their current state is) vs Quantum::Superpositions? 18:35
fglock_ Limbic_Region: yes, we are talking about the p5 implementation - perl5/Perl6-Value/lib/Perl6/Code.pm 18:36
Limbic_Region dunno cause I don't know that the current state is
I have spent a fair amount of time under the hood of Q::S though 18:37
too bad binding isn't overloadable in p5
you can't do if any( @foo ) =~ /bar/ in Q::S
fglock_ the problem is, (1|2)==3 expands to (1==3)||(2==3) and takes twice the execution time - bigger Junctions take even longer, and if you have Junctions in both sides, the times multiply 18:38
Limbic_Region fglock - I doubt seriously my understanding of Q::S is going to be much of a help to you without knowing more about the p6 junction specifications 18:39
and I stopped following that when I found out that
all( any(@foo) eq any(@bar)) wouldn't do what I wanted (out of the box) 18:40
and I know even less about MM1/2 then I do about p6 junctions 18:41
unless a lot more DWIMery has been added to the p6 junction specifications - I find them less then useful 18:42
s/then//
fglock_ just in case - Code.pm line 223 - the implementation takes just 20 lines (called from lines 252 and 367) 18:43
Limbic_Region looking now 18:44
fglock_ it wraps the normal function call (the Code->do() function)
s/function/method/
Limbic_Region it isn't recursive but that doesn't mean it is necessarily optimized either 18:45
oh wait 18:46
it is recursive
I didn't see that exand_junctions calls do which calls expand_junctions 18:47
fglock_ yes - that's when you have 2 parameters that are junctions, for example
it needs to call the subroutine (n * m) times 18:48
stevan putter:pong
Limbic_Region fglock_ - then Q::S should be able to help 18:49
it uses Class::Multimethods btw
hmmm - or maybe not 18:51
putter stevan: are there any mm construction methods which can't be chained?
stevan putter: not that I know of,.... but I have never tried it so hard to say
can you given an example?
putter ie, ->new()->superclasses()->roles()->add_foo()->add_bar()...
stevan k 18:52
lemme see whats up
putter oh, no
no known problem. just checking on intent as I design something
stevan ah
well lets see
new() will return a new thing of what you want 18:53
if it is Class, then one of these methods will work
kgftr|konobi theorbtwo: moo?
stevan but they do not allow further chaining becuase they accessor/mutators
superclasses returns the array of superclasses, etc 18:54
putter ah. ok. tnx.
stevan putter: BTW - endless recursion in chaos usually means that your method is recursing 18:55
it would say where it really is, except all method calls must pass through there
fglock_ Limbic_Region: there is also Perl6::Junction 18:56
nothingmuch hola pdcawley 18:58
putter stevan: re recursion. ok, tnx. I have to run a smoke before the recent junction changes to see if it's the mm2 transition or a new problem. 18:59
pdcawley hola.
Limbic_Region fglock_ oh yeah, that is likely to be closer to the p6 junction specification then Q::S anyday 19:00
nothingmuch hola gaal 19:01
fglock__ putter: did the Junctions cause the recursion error? 19:13
putter fglock__: no idea. the smoke of current state is still running, and I haven't done any specific tests. the test which recursed was... 19:17
19:18 constant is now known as integral
putter well, the first one was t/builtins/arrays/splice.t . but several failed, blowing memory or time limits. 19:22
fglock__ splice isn't working in pil-run - that's MM2 related, I think (it was working before that) - I'll take a look in the code 19:27
putter: Array.pm line 356 (slice method) - 'if ( ref($list) ne 'Array' )' - this may be a problem 19:31
putter yep. !($list->isa('Array')) 19:32
would you like to grep for all instances of ref( or shall I? :) 19:33
fglock__ please do
putter k
fglock__ !( ref($list) && $list->isa('Array') ) -- because $list may be a p5 thing 19:35
bbiab
back 19:47
putter ok, let's see, ref's... 20:08
20:15 autrijus_tw is now known as autrijus
fglock__ putter: UNIVERSAL::isa() doesn't work for MM2 too 20:20
putter ok, that's next 20:35
nothingmuch stevan: ping
those germans don't seem to understand control flow at all ;-) 20:36
fglock__ is trying to find out how Quantum::Superpositions is different from Junctions 20:37
nothingmuch i forgot how, but the answer is "subtly" 20:38
please note: search.cpan.org/~cfranks/Perl6-Junc...unction.pm
fglock__ Limbic_Regions said there are optimizations in Q::S that make it non-recursive
s/Regions/Region/ 20:39
svnbot6 r7201 | putter++ | Perl6::Value, Perl6::Container, PIL-Run - fix uses of ref() for mm2. P6::Value and ApiX use separate p6v_isa and p6_isa because their requirements are different, and P6::V does not yet depend on ApiX. 20:41
fglock__ Perl6::Junction and Q::S implementations are much more complex than pil-run, because they have to overload p5 primitives. I think it is not very hard to apply Q::S optimizations to pil-run. 20:46
I wonder what's the meaning of 'qbop' and 'qblop' method names 20:48
'quantize binary operation' and 'quantize binary logical operation' ? 20:50
stevan nothingmuch: poing 20:51
fglock__ $self->poing() is a reflexive op 20:53
svnbot6 r7202 | putter++ | Perl6::Value, Perl6::Container, PIL-Run - fix uses of isa() for mm2. fglock++
r7203 | putter++ | Perl6::Value, Perl6::Container, PIL-Run - p6v_isa() bugfix. 'p6v_isa' -> 'Perl6::Value::p6v_isa'. 20:59
fglock__ putter: slices are working! putter++ 21:04
is @a[3|4] supposed to work? 21:05
svnbot6 r7204 | putter++ | PIL-Run/lib6/Test.pm: revert use of p6_isa. Test.pm is p6, not p5.
putter fglock_: sanity looks sane for the first time since mm2. do you know of any unresolved mm2 problems, or shall I smoke to look for them, 21:07
fglock__ it looks fine to me so far
putter ok. smoking...
fglock__ pugs too doesn't accept @a[3|4] 21:08
putter: do the tests expect true and false to stringify as 'bool::false' and 'bool::true'? I think the correct is '' and '1', but I don't remember where I saw this 21:10
putter ? 21:11
fglock__ just in case you saw some failure related to this
putter pugs behaves as you describe ('' '1') 21:12
fglock__ hey, that's right - if I type ~(1==1) it works 21:13
putter and so does pugs -Bperl5. :)
fglock__ but (1==1) prints bool::true
I guess that's (1==1).perl 21:14
:)
geoffb fades in
putter the pugs repl shows .perl. the pugs -Bperl5 repl is still showing .str. which will change, but not until after mm2 transition. hopefully today?
geoffb spinclad, thanks for the kind words; nothingmuch, feel free to comment in the blog comments. :-)
fglock__ geoffb: nice article 21:15
geoffb fglock__, thanks
putter fglock: re ->increment, is that speced somewhere? there seem to be a lot of method names ->foo which seem like they should be ->FOO or ->_foo_ or something. then again, ->id() is spec :(. 21:18
anyone want to email p6l suggesting ->id() should be ->object_id() (ala ruby), as "id" is too useful to users to waste on such a little written method? 21:20
fglock__ these methods can be uppercased; increment is not specced
putter k
fglock__ increment is used by $x++
putter increment only came to mind because I had seen it recently. which triggered a general "namespace clutter?" thought. 21:22
fglock__ yes, many things could actually be multisubs in prelude now 21:25
putter hmm... $x=3; undefine($x); isn't working. complains undefine() is ... undefined.
fglock__ checking
nothingmuch oh my, what a long post 21:26
putter: yes, I agree
i like $foo.id for e.g. primary key in a object relational mapper, or a domain specific attribute in my domain specific use for IDs 21:27
fglock__ $a.undefine works - I think it doesn't undertand that undefine is a method 21:28
geoffb joined p6l to be a Good List Citizen when posting, but already regretting it
nothingmuch geoffb: it's addicting ;-) 21:29
the first week i was like "fun! perl 6!"
then i said to myself "uggh.. this is too much"
now it is the only list that I really read almost fully
geoffb wow, good for you I guess.
I skipped #1, and now sit square at #2. 21:30
I no longer read lists much, except for very low traffic (like 1-2/day), and even then only a couple of those
putter fglock: tnx... that suggests a bigger problem (in ApiX)...
nothingmuch i am subscribed to several lists
but i mark-read-thread almost all
the reason I read is that I like to keep watch for things that interest me 21:31
for example the catalyst mailing list
p6i
darcs-users and darcs-devel
geoffb I am beginning to make peace with the fact (albeit slowly) that too much interests me
nothingmuch i don't post or even read those, and I am by no means a developer, but I still like to watch the subjects
i think everyone here has that problem
nothingmuch is completely unable to cope with it 21:32
look at harrorth
i have so much I want to do with it
but I feel that it's just ever so slightly lost the trend at which i learned from it
so I naturally moved on, even though I really want to work on i
t
geoffb nodnod 21:33
putter hmm. (\@a).isa('Array') is false?
geoffb at least you had an open repo
s/had/have/
nothingmuch yes
i'm all up for that now
if i'm going to have these 60% projects I might as well share the unfinished work
and not hide it waiting for the never reached release date ;-) 21:34
putter fglock__: pugs says (\@a).isa('Array') is true. pilrun says not. ?
geoffb finally just made a /dev/urandom section of his site to hold that stuff
nothingmuch pdcawley_: do you have a paypal account?
ah yes, I have a project that is supposed to make /dev/random into a tree automatically for my website 21:35
fglock__ putter: that's a problem in Ref.isa - Code.pm 325
nothingmuch i know how it'll work, but it's too much to implement it right now
nothingmuch needs to quit his job, and be a student
fglock__ it should "auto-deref" Array and Hash
just like it does with other methods
putter can you fix? 21:36
fglock__ sure
nothingmuch pdcawley_: anyway, at the rate I'm posting I guess I should support you & matt with $2 a month subscription payments... That way you can pay for the coffee it should take you to read through my mails ;-)
shit, rindolf has a new project 21:37
putter tnx :)
nothingmuch perlmeme.org/ 21:38
"creating a simple cgi script" has the dillemas: "object oriented or not", makes you create a CGI object without knowing what it represents, talks about output without telling you what the CGI environment actually looks like, and encourages using the HTML generation features of CGI 21:40
fglock__ putter: done
nothingmuch what an aweful example
fglock__ putter: there is a bug - tied Array and Hashes should not auto-deref - I'll fix this later
nothingmuch there is absolutely no value, it's only merit is scaring the n00bs away so that they will go and do PHP
fglock__ bbiab 21:42
putter ok. thanks fglock. 21:43
nothingmuch goes to read and sleep
svnbot6 r7205 | fglock++ | * perl5/Ref - Ref to Array isa('Array') 21:46
putter hmm. so if an object has AUTOMETH, does that mean one can userandomstringhere($o) to call it? 21:48
21:49 flgr_ is now known as flgr
Juerd Does anyone happen to know why feather is down, or since when it has been down? 23:20
rafl The last time I was logged in was yesterday, IIRC. 23:21
Juerd: AFAIK evalbot ran on it. Maybe its part time can help 23:28
Juerd Oh, heh, indeed it can
And not just its
21:19 -!- chip [n=chip@194.145.200.126] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:19 -!- Limbic_Region [n=81217719@p3m/member/Limbic-Region] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:19 -!- fglock_ [n=c8115922@feather.perl6.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:19 -!- autrijus [n=autrijus@feather.perl6.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:21 -!- broquaint [n=broquain@ts3-126.twistspace.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:21 -!- fglock [n=c8b690e6@feather.perl6.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
21:22 -!- evalbot_7200 [n=evalbot_@feather.perl6.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
That's all feather, in different stages of reverse (wow, some people have been online for a long time!) 23:29
Or rather, had been.
rafl Yes. Any Idea what's wrong with feather?
Juerd No
All I know is that it's unreachable.
I got an email from chip 23:30
I can't stand though that I just got home from a place very nearby feather
I briefly considered checking my email there
And didn't
Fuck.
But - it'll have to wait until I've slept
It's 0132 am here
rafl Here as well.
Juerd And as this box isn't making money, it can wait ;) 23:31
meppl gute nacht 23:34

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