-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by apple-gunkies on 11 November 2005.
04:15 mugwump_ is now known as mugwump 07:23 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
j0sephi picasa.hu/fresh.php :) 08:49
09:53 mtve2 is now known as mtve
wolverian who the heck thought that the Gnome C API documentation is adequate for the Perl bindings? sigh 14:01
</grumble>
webmind a moron :) 14:02
what are you trying to do ? 14:03
wolverian a simple editor/project tree with gtksourceview and GnomeVFS 14:04
webmind k
Limbic_Region must be too early in the morning - I saw that entire conversation between wolverian and webmind as one individual talking with themself 14:05
gaal it is always too early in the morning. except for when it's too late at night 14:06
rafl wolverian: The bindings map the C API quite closely, so I think they are.
wolverian rafl, I obviously disagree. maybe it's because I haven't used the C bindings or the Perl bindings before. 14:07
rafl wolverian: The only think you'll need to get used to is to know on which layer of abstraction you can find the methods/signals/properties you want. 14:08
wolverian: Then the POD docs will be quite useful.
wolverian right. 14:10
what the heck - I see Gnome2::VFS::Monitor in the docs but not on CPAN
rafl The PODs are generated at built time and therefor not indexed on CPAN. 14:11
wolverian well, it's not in the Ubuntu libgnome2-vfs-perl package either. but maybe I just need to install it from CPAN, then.
rafl wolverian: The POD docs are included in Debians libgnome2-vfs-perl (which I also maintain). 14:12
wolverian I mean the module itself.
rafl Debian sid has the same version as Ubuntu dapper 14:13
wolverian yeah, I'm on dapper. weird
oh, maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works 14:15
rafl As far as I see the packages are pretty much identical.
wolverian am I supposed to do 'use Gnome2::VFS::Monitor;' at all?
rafl No. They are all glued into one shared object that's loaded when you use Gnome2::VFS
perl -MGnome2::VFS -MData::Dumper -e'print Dumper(\%Gnome2::VFS::Monitor::)' 14:16
wolverian right. thanks a lot. rafl++ # has patience with dumbasses like me 14:18
rafl wolverian: np. Can you tell me what's in the Maintainer field of that package? I'd like to know if they use the same packages that HE and I provide for Debian. But it isn't listed on the webpages.. 14:19
wolverian Maintainer: Gtk2-Perl Maintainers [email@hidden.address] 14:22
rafl OK, then they simply use our packages.. 14:24
fglock hi all! 14:49
Limbic_Region salutations fglock 14:51
fglock hi Limbic_Region 14:53
I've been away for too long - I hope I can come here more often now :)
Limbic_Region we hope so too 14:54
Limbic_Region wonders if $larry has used his commit bit yet
fglock I'm trying to writing down my view of the implementation of "lazy" 14:56
integral Limbic_Region: I've seen it happen twice! 14:57
Limbic_Region good, that means he is actually using Pugs which means he will be writing p6 code and get frustrated when it doesn't work and that will mean he will write tests and update design docs so that stuff can be implemented 14:58
this is a "good thing"
luqui he is also learning haskell, so he can hack on the internals (or... probably not) 14:59
Limbic_Region luqui - personally, I would rather he be hacking on the p5 parser if that isn't finished yet 15:00
but anything/everything he does is appreciated
luqui right, his energy is best used elsewhere 15:01
fglock I'm trying to figure out what "Generator" is. It looks like it is the low-level implementation of Lazy-list 15:04
I don't think I understand completely what's the difference between List and Array
I'm trying to understand it in this context: groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....1b0b885b5a 15:06
Limbic_Region fglock - sorry I can't help. luqui is much more in a position to distinguish between what is a List and what is an Array 15:07
fglock This part make sense to me - Larry said: "there's really no such thing as a List. The basic list types are actually Eager and Lazy, and an Array conveniently contains one of each" 15:10
luqui fglock, the biggest difference between Array and List is that Lists are immutable 15:11
but other than that, it's kinda fuzzy
I mean, I could tell you which is which in a given context, but I couldn't really tell you why
so, maybe it's just fuzzy to me 15:12
fglock removing "generator" and "list", and using "eager" and "lazy" - it works to me; this maps to the actual implementation in p5 backend 15:13
I'm not comfortable with "Lists are immutable". "Lazy" is not immutable - you can "pop" and "shift" from it 15:15
I mean, it is an iterator, and the state changes each time you access it 15:16
Limbic_Region finds the idea of popping/shifting a list nauseating 15:19
my $second = (1..10)[3]; # is fine 15:20
my $first = shift (1..10); # is not
fglock when you say (1..10)[3] it is a slice operation - Lists don't do that (I think), so it is actually an Array operation. The "shift" is an error because the Array is read-only (again, I think so) 15:22
Limbic_Region fglock - in p5 lists do that and as I said, I am not qualified to distinguish between lists and arrays in p6 15:23
luqui fglock, you don't pop from lists 15:28
you can think of it this way: get the list out of the array, and then put it back in to the array without its final element 15:29
in perl 5, a list is rougly the thing that a function returns when it returns multiple values
you can put it into an array, but you can't pop from the list of return values directly
in perl 6 we'd like to make such a list an object 15:30
fglock luqui: (1..10)[3] operates on an anonymous array? 15:32
which contains an eager list
(bbiab) 15:33
dvtoo are lists mutable? 15:40
luqui that's what we're arguing
dvtoo oh, I see, sorry
luqui no problem
Limbic_Region (1..10)[3] working on an anonymous array bothers me 15:41
luqui fglock, I never said that you can't subscript a list
Limbic_Region it implies I can take a reference to it
and keep it around
and change it
fglock Limbic_Region: (1..10) is a List, but (1..10)[3] is an Array slice, which point to a read-only scalar - if you try to assign (1..10)[3]=4 it will be an error because you are trying to assign to a read-only scalar 15:47
luqui fglock, that is a very perl5esque way to think of it. do you think that it's clean? 15:52
it doesn't feel clean to me... 15:53
but that may just be me
oh, wait, you're wrong :-)
perl -ce '(1..10)[3] = 5' 15:54
Can't modify list slice in scalar assignment at -e line 1, at EOF
^^^^^^^^^^
Juerd A "List"? 15:58
luqui what about it?
Juerd Still doesn't make sense to me.
If it needs to be an object, it can be an Array.
List as a type feels weird.
luqui I think there really is a logical distinction there 15:59
but to clarify things more (or perhaps muddy them up)
List is what Larry is calling theory.pod's Tuple
Juerd I think it's great if a list cannot be referenced or stored directly.
luqui so it has a little bit more structure than an array has
Juerd Ahh, that explains things.
Then "List" is an even much worse name.
Or list context needs renaming. 16:00
luqui the latter is quite possible
"flattening context" may be better
Juerd I still quite like singular vs plural
luqui as context names
Juerd Then flat context, please :)
luqui ?
Juerd flattening is too much typing ;)
Yes, as context names. 16:01
luqui you wouldn't have to type it
you type it as *
Juerd In code, sure.
But think of IRC, Perl Monks, usenet.
:)
luqui heh
Juerd I like that Perl has nice, short jargon.
luqui singular vs. plural is pretty good too, though
Juerd And that's the main argument against singular vs plural too.
singular is too long :)
luqui I'm rather irked by "form" and "part", however, but for the most part I agree 16:02
Juerd But item versus plural is assymmetric
part should be group anyway...
What does form do again?
luqui group's pretty good. I don't see the problem with "partition". It's not like this is an extremely common combinator 16:03
form is from Perl6::Form, the formatting module
two more letters and it suddenly makes sense
Juerd Partition, as a verb, feels weird to me as a non-native speaker.
I've never used it.
luqui oh. well, I have..
Juerd Oh, form is a stupid name indeed. Format++
I hadn't considered the module, as it's, well, a module :) 16:04
luqui yeah. I don't really care, as I'll never use it
Juerd But I'd like part to be group, personally.
luqui something about Damian's interfaces really bug me
Juerd I will use it, but wouldn't dislike Perl6::Form::form even, because I don't use it more than once per year. 16:05
Juerd has actually used Text::Reform last week.
Much to my own surprise too.
Can you define what bugs you?
I think they abuse arrays and hashes too much. (i.e. give them special meaning and thus turn [] and {} into non-array and non-hash syntax) 16:06
luqui well, they're made to be "dwimmy", but I always, always, have to go to the documentation to use them
and sift through pages of special cases to find out if the thing I'm passing it will be interpreted specially 16:07
Juerd So do I, but that's mostly because I don't use it often enough.
luqui well, I've used Parse::RecDescent in more than ten different places (rough estimate), and I still have to use the docs a lot
Juerd And yes, it would be nice to also have concise reference documentation in addition to the tutorial-like prose.
That, again, has to do with weird syntax :) 16:08
luqui and yet, I've only used parsec once, and I'm already documentation free
Juerd Syntax mustn't be too free-form.
luqui and forget about Text::Balanced
quite awkward indeed 16:09
Juerd T::B uses $&, which doesn't feel right, even though it is optimized now.
luqui well, the whole "in scalar context, it changes the string, but only when it's a reference, and only if you're not an Aquarius"
Juerd I had a constant stream of mixed feelings while reading PBP. A totally new experience for me. 16:10
Heh.
luqui "in list context, it returns a list of these five hundred things, the 313th and the 27th of which you will actually need"
Juerd Let's hope boolean named arguments will quickly spread as the much better practice. :)
luqui hopes so
Juerd Damian's interfaces are /complete/ though. It's hard to find something he hasn't obviously thought about. 16:11
luqui that's true
his modules do *everything* in the domain
Juerd Yep
luqui so I guess it's hard to pack all of that into a concise interface
Juerd Hard, but not impossible. 16:12
But it may require words.
And words are scary. Or something.
luqui which he is opposed to :-)
anyway, time for a shower, to go to school, and to stop ripping on Damian's excellent modules
luqui & 16:13
Juerd Bye 16:14
Have fun at school.
Juerd always finds it hard to imagine what intelligent people do in school... :) 16:15
luqui work our asses off writing essays about the Russian Revolution to appease the particular professor's tastes
oh, thanks 16:16
luqui &
rafl Juerd: Usually nothing. At least in my experice. :-) 16:18
Juerd My current vision is that school is there to help people learn, and thus unnecessary if you are already able to discover new things by yourself. 16:20
This very probably has to do with my own lack of education, but that doesn't really challenge the statement.
integral Juerd: one useful thing it offers is access to professors/readers/lecturers/researchers who have used the stuff a lot. 16:23
Juerd Yes, that is nice. 16:24
Should be possible without the organized education attached to it, though.
integral the organization helps pay them... 16:25
Juerd Invent subscriptions
integral there's all the people who complain the journals are subscription based :-/ 16:26
Juerd I think it's natural to pay to see someone speak.
And subscriptions are the only low-cost way to enable that over longer terms. 16:27
integral hmm, and it's possibly natural to group several speakers together, and organised several week's worth of lectures from them; then to organise some question handouts, and then at the end the opportunity to get a certificate of participation... 16:28
Juerd On the matter of not-paying, though, I really really really hate that the LPW overlaps with something I had already planned to attend.
What would you nead a certificate of participation for?
I'd be there for the knowledge and wisdom, not pride or proof. 16:29
integral to prove to an employer that you've gone and gathered some wisdom...
Juerd Oh, right. Employers.
Haven't been in that situation yet, unfortunately.
integral Oh, or we could just let the state pay us, comrade... 16:30
Juerd That would be best, of course, but it might severely decrease the quality.
rafl Juerd: You can attend to the next GPW! 16:31
Juerd: It even isn't that far than last year for you.
Juerd Where will it be held?
And when?
rafl Juerd: perlworkshop.de 16:32
Juerd: I hope you speak some german. The page is only partially translated.
Juerd Ah, should have googled.
I can read German. 16:33
Not speak, but that shouldn't be necessary for browsing a site :)
rafl Fine.
Indeed.
Juerd Weiter ist der Deutsche Perl-Workshop fĆ¼r Teilnehmer sehr kostengĆ¼nstig.
Do you happen to know exactly how kostenguenstig it will be? :)
Or roughly
Is last year's fee a good indication? 16:34
rafl Juerd: Here's Bochum, btw: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bochum
Juerd: afaik around 50EUR. 16:35
Juerd: Not sure though. That's maybe the students price.
Juerd I'm a student, officially.
rafl Juerd: Then it's definitly not more than 50EUR. Maybe less. 16:36
Juerd I'm not motivated or doing anything about it, but I am registered with the dutch open university.
Since a few months.
Oh, that's reasonably west, so certainly drivable.
I can be there in 2 hours 16:37
I could even sleep at home :)
rafl Juerd: Great, I need some place to sleep ;-)
Juerd Haha
That would be weird.
Attend a conference *in another country* and sleep in your own... :) 16:38
rafl Juerd: You might also want to attend at the next Chemnitzer Linux Days. It's just after the Perl workshop (sat,sun). iblech want's to give a Perl 6 talk there. 16:39
Juerd Hmmm
Interesting 16:40
rafl And even cooler things like a Debian Day, that I'm forced to organize.
I also have a warm place to rest for you as I live in Chemnitz.
Juerd Where is Chemnitz?
rafl Quite in the east of Germany. de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitz 16:41
autrijus: Maybe you want to join as well when you're in Germany for the GPW anyway? :-) 16:42
Juerd Oh, that's very east.
rafl Juerd: Well, still drivable.
Juerd 5 hours! 16:43
rafl Even by bike. I will probably do that.
Juerd But, I guess, doable.
What kind of "bike"?
Motorcycle, or human powered? 16:44
rafl Juerd: Not sure yet. Depends on the weather. A racing bike or an mountain bike.
Juerd: A human powered, of course. :-)
Juerd 500 km by bicycle...
In 1 day?
rafl And a night. 16:45
Juerd ... 16:46
That's, ehm, tough. :)
My max is 100 a day. And then I'm dead.
rafl Juerd: I actually like long bike trips. Fichtelberg - Kap Arkona for example (~600km)
Juerd And that's in .nl, so the flattest immaginable.
Hm, and not long after this Chemnitz thing, there's Cebit, that I'd like to visit anyway. 16:47
I could consider a longer stay in Germany. 16:48
How's Germany for nature camping?
rafl Juerd: biking in .nl isn't that cool. To breezy. If I climb up a mountain I can proudly say that I climbed it up, but always cycling against the wind isn't cool, imho.
Juerd: Camping is fine. And for the Linux Day I can even offer indoor camping 16:49
Juerd Believe me, wind conquering pride does exist here. Every day when I cycled home. :)
I don't know if pitching a tent indoors is a great idea :)
But then, the tent isn't really necessary even :)
rafl You don't even need a tent. Cool, eh? :-) 16:50
Juerd I like the idea of going to Germany next March, and staying there a while.
It'll depend on financial resources, though. 16:51
rafl Juerd: I'd be happy
Juerd There's another thing in Germany, in December, that I'm probably not going to, because I'm short on cash.
rafl What other thing?
Juerd CCC conference
rafl I'll be there as well. But it's expensive, yes. 16:52
Juerd I promised some people I'd be there, but it's expensive, my car doesn't run on rain water, and any place to stay is also expensive.
I hate camping out in winter, so that's not an option.
rafl Juerd: I have a cheap place for you to stay in Berlin. Several even. 16:53
Juerd Tell me more :)
rafl At a friend of mine, Sven Guckes.
Juerd I recognise the name, but have no idea where I saw it before. 16:54
rafl Maybe in context with vim or screen. He has a command line fetish (like I have). 16:55
Or mutt-ng or the grml live distro
Juerd I use vim and screen, so that could be it.
Command line fetishes are good.
rafl Indeed.
Juerd Though I admit slowly getting to like konqueror as a file manager
Its kpartview doesn't quite beat du -ch 16:56
Eh, the reverse of that.
du -ch doesn't quite beat kpartview.
rafl I still prefer it over a GUI tool. 16:58
Juerd Hm, FOSDEM is just before the GPW 17:00
This keeps looking better.
It could be a west european geek tour :)
rafl I've never been to fosdem. What's special about it? 17:01
Juerd I have no idea, but they will be offering LPIC-2 exams 17:02
At reduced fees :)
rafl Is there a linux event that doesn't do that? 17:05
I think you can also do that at the Chemnitzer LT. 17:06
Juerd I see 17:07
Still, the Geek Tour might be a nice idea.
feb 25 FOSDEM Brussels
feb 26 FOSDEM Brussels
feb 27
feb 28
mar 1 GPW Bochum
mar 2 GPW Bochum
mar 3 GPW Bochum
mar 4 ChLT Chemnitz
mar 5 ChLT Chemnitz
mar 6 17:08
mar 7 Amsterdam.PM Amsterdam
mar 8
mar 9 CeBIT Hannover
Now to find stuff for the four empty days :)
rafl Juerd: Will you drive from Chemnitz to Amsterdam and do you have two free seats? :-) 17:09
ingy hola 17:10
xinming Juerd: where is your personal site? 17:11
Juerd rafl: Iff I'm stupid enough to do this, I probably will. 17:14
xinming: Guess.
xinming juerd.com doesn't work. :-/ I lost the history. :-/ 17:15
rafl Juerd: I'd be stupid enough and the fellow student beside me as well.
Juerd xinming: Your internet connection is broken. Juerd.com does workforme.
rafl: It all mostly depends on how rich I will be by then. 17:16
xinming <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><title></title></head><body></body></html>
Juerd: That's only page I got using Juerd.com
Juerd rafl: I have to be able to afford a few weeks without serious work, a lot of fuel, some conferences and places to stay.
rafl Juerd: I can at least organize some places to sleep in Chemnitz and Bochum.
Juerd rafl: That helps, yea 17:17
xinming: Whatever - then try juerd.nl
xinming: Still something is broken if juerd.com does not work.
rafl Juerd: Well, maybe we could also cut it down a bit to be cheaper.
Juerd Cut what down? 17:19
Oh, fsck
I have to be somewhere in 10 minutes
Will you be around later tonight?
Juerd runs off 17:20
afk
rafl Juerd: Yes, I will. 17:24
Juerd: Cut the trip down. Drop some events.
integral hmm, I wonder if threads are working enough to work around the blocking issue in svnbot 17:52
pmurias Is there a TODO for pugs? 18:13
Su-Shee Hi. 18:24
geoffb pmurias, not as such. There are a few things that hit part of the issue, though:
dduncan hi
geoffb 1) tests. These are filled with todos
2) The 2*PI timeline. Long scale todos 18:25
3) STATUS (probably not completely up to date), has areas of incompletion and current work
4) AES (mostly S) -- these all have to be implemented
Probably more, but my brain is not fully engaged this morning 18:26
Limbic_Region pmurias - are you looking to see what is left to be done or looking to see what you can do to help
there will be an intersection between the two lists - but they won't be identical 18:27
Juerd re 18:47
rafl: Oh, of course :)
rafl Juerd: Simply keep me informed about your plans so we can probably meet. 18:50
Juerd Oh, that'll probably happen anyway, sooner or later. 18:51
rafl Uhm, where?
Juerd Time will tell
Possibly as soon as CCC.
rafl OK, if you need something to sleep there simply tell me. 18:52
And do that soon.
Juerd I have one client, who owes me a few thousand euros. However, they're allowed, by exceptional contract, to wait until January.
rafl: In any case, if I'm coming to CCC, I'll be gone as soon as dec 30, because a big party is thrown for my dad, who will be 60 the next day. 18:53
rafl Juerd: I think I'll also miss one day. Not sure which, though. 18:54
rafl changes locations. See you..
Juerd Bye
pmurias Limbic_Region: the second one 19:04
Limbic_Region pmurias - there is plenty you can do 19:06
do you already know Haskell?
Pugs is a p6 parser/compile that targets a handful of backends - Haskell, Perl5, JavaScript, and Parrot 19:08
all of those areas need work
if you want something a bit more introductory - you can always write p6 code for example contributions and when it doesn't work - write tests 19:09
what level of involvement were you looking for? 19:10
pmurias I read the Haskell school of expresion and a bit of other haskell stuff, but would like to do something wich would allow me to learn Haskell for real 19:17
Limbic_Region oh, well then perhaps you should check out autrijus' tutorial on the matter 19:20
pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul
www.haskell.org/learning.html # also has several tutorials 19:21
autrijus' presentation likely won't help you learn Haskell unless he is actually presenting it 19:22
Juerd In which case you get instant understanding of large parts of the universe. 19:24
Limbic_Region didn't know autrijus was into string or m-theory 19:25
geoffb large parts, not small parts 19:26
Limbic_Region geoffb - I didn't say quantum or relativity - string/m-theory is a GUT so large parts apply 19:27
</silliness> 19:28
pmurias I was more looking for a medium/easy task which would allow me to see how thinks work out in pugs and haskell in general (and perhaps do something usefull) rather the haskell syntax(I read the Haskell Report for those)
Limbic_Region pmurias - my suggestion would be to find someone doing something you are vaguely interested in and ask them for specific guidance 19:29
most people here have pet projects
Su-Shee Limbic_Region: Who's the petholder for "documentation"? 19:30
Juerd Several people. It depends on the kind of documentation you're after. 19:31
pmurias Limbic_Region: Is there a (hopefully) a list of those?
Su-Shee Juerd: I'd like to participate in some way. And as I'm a journalist, writing stuff comes in mind. What kind is _needed_? 19:32
Limbic_Region pmurias - it is unusually quiet here ATM, but usually the regulars are chatting about whatever it is they are working on
pmurias - if you haven't checked the commit log - that might be a good place to start 19:33
Juerd Su-Shee: All kinds.
Su-Shee: For example, there is no reference documentation for Perl 6 yet.
Su-Shee: And there's the quickref subproject, that still needs more concisely packed info. 19:34
Limbic_Region Juerd - is there a p6doc yet - I seem to recall that there is but I am not sure
Su-Shee Juerd: The quickref I use right now to learn.
pmurias don't the synopsis count as reference documentation?
Juerd Su-Shee: It'd also be great if you could think of great answers for the fears subproject.
pmurias: I mean a perldoc like thing. Something a programmer can use to look up how the language works. 19:35
pmurias: Synopses describe changes since Perl 5 mostly.
Limbic_Region: I have no idea.
pmurias: We need documentation that is purely Perl 6, in very consistent Perl 6 jargon.
pmurias: Which is structured, and has a fixed layout within that structure. 19:36
Su-Shee Ok, I can see that the problem is not that there isn't enough to write. ;) 19:37
Juerd Certainly not :) 19:39
fglock rehi
Juerd If you feel like it, start writing and don't forget to commit often
pmurias Is one allowed to use synopses as a base for reference documentation (I haven't seen a licence on them)
Juerd pmurias: I think so, but I don't think it makes a good basis. 19:40
Su-Shee I may ask for details around here? 19:41
Juerd Always 19:46
obra pmurias: when you do that, credit it? just so it can be dealt with later if need be? 19:47
meppl youre coding a java-script-compiler? 20:00
--
Mit der Version 6.2.8 haben sich die Ziele des Projektes leicht geōæ½xE4ndert. Pugs soll ein vollstōæ½xE4ndiger Perl 6-Compiler werden, der Perl 6 nach Parrot (PIR), Haskell oder Perl 5 und weiteren Sprachen, z.B. JavaScript, ōæ½xFCbersetzen kann. 20:04
hm
sry
Su-Shee Wow. I'm impressed. Every crazy idea I try without documentation works as I expect. :) 20:08
Limbic_Region Su-Shee are you aware of the evalbot? 20:21
Su-Shee Limbic_Region: No? 20:22
Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..100; @foo[47]
20:22 evalbot_7978 is now known as evalbot_7981
evalbot_7981 \48 20:22
Limbic_Region ?my $choice = any(1..100); $choice.pick
Su-Shee Fancy. :) Is it saved afterwards if it works? 20:23
Limbic_Region ?eval my $choice = any(1..100); $choice.pick
evalbot_7981 10
Limbic_Region saved?
Su-Shee Yes. If it works the bot might save it as example, test or something like this.
Limbic_Region not that I know of and I doubt it 20:24
the source code is in the pugs repository fwiw
Su-Shee I just have the pugs from CPAN right now. 20:26
I didn't expect that so much is working already.
Limbic_Region not sure why the Pugs from CPAN would be any different
but if you need to browse the trunk repository you can 20:27
svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
wolverian any recommendations for a free (as in beer or freedom) licensed UML editor for linux that doesn't suck?
Limbic_Region svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/n...k/evalbot/
Su-Shee Limbic_Region: tnx. 20:28
Limbic_Region wolverian - using "free UML editor" at google appears to give some promising results
wolverian Limbic_Region, thanks. I'm looking at argouml right now. 20:29
GeJ wolverian: you can also try poseidon. It started as a fork of argouml but has grown pretty well lately. They have a community edition (or something like that) that is free as in beer. 20:37
Su-Shee Hm. For testing the rules I need parrot? 20:47
Limbic_Region yes, PGE hasn't been ported to p6 *yet*
Su-Shee Ok.
Well, this looks like a new edition of "mastering regular expressions" ... ;) 20:48
Limbic_Region well - p6 rules are called rules cause they aren't regular expressions anymore 20:50
well - that's probably not the only or even the main reason, but it does apply
Su-Shee I just took a glance and saw "Ok, _this_ looks different.." 20:51
xinming I don't think regexp will be dead even we have got rule. :-)
Su-Shee As I actually don't know what I can exactly do and don't with the rules.. 20:53
pmurias Juerd: I sent my request for an account on feather my email,by new account isn't tested much so if you don't get it,please irc to me. 20:54
xinming Su-Shee: hmm, IMHO, rule is much more powerful than regexp. But regexp is more expressive in simple case. 20:55
Limbic_Region xinming - you are correct, rules encompass regexen but also a whole lot more
wolverian GeJ, poseidon is nice, yes, and I have a license for it, but it is just too much of a memory hog. 21:00
GeJ, it does not run nicely on 256mb ram :)
GeJ nod nod... I have the same issue at work. have to use it on my station, useless on the laptop 21:05
Su-Shee And here we go with the rules.
wolverian argouml runs okay, but it doesn't do automatic layout 21:06
well, it does, but it just puts the classes side by side with no regard whatsoever to the connections 21:07
worse than useless
Juerd pmurias: After a comma should be whitespace :)
geoffb It weirds me out, somehow, that most of the English usage and syntax correction comes from people who are not native English speakers . . . while those of us who are native just subconsciously error-correct and don't even notice anything was wrong. 21:11
Barring, of course, my $spouse, who is *constantly* correcting typos in ads, much to my annoyance. :-) 21:12
PerlJam geoffb: The native english speakers are also the ones making the majority of the mistakes :)
geoffb LOL, well, possibly true.
Su-Shee at least you hadn't have a new version of spelling... 21:15
Odin-LAP also spots and points out typos in Icelandic.
So it's really not so much to do with having to think consciously about it, as it is a personality flaw. ;)
geoffb Odin-LAP, heh
Su-Shee, ? 21:16
Su-Shee I see it in foreign texts but not in mine. ;)
geoffb ah
Su-Shee geoffb: I'm suffering from a spelling reform in Germany as a journalist, because no it depends on the magazine what kind of spelling is used. ;)
And as german spelling always was _that_ easy.. ;) 21:17
geoffb bleh
Juerd geoffb: Eh, interpunction like this is not at all specific to English.
geoffb: And I do correct Dutch, my native language, too.
geoffb Juerd, true -- your correction made me think about the general trend
Odin-LAP Oooh. Kind of like here. They dropped "z" around thirty years ago. One of the newspapers still hasn't heard about that...
Juerd Odin-LAP: haven't 21:18
geoffb Su-Shee, is it true as I have heard that German is attempting to go to pure ASCII spelling? Or will there still be Latin-1 characters used, even in "reformed" spellings?
Odin-LAP O_o 21:19
Why the hell would they even want that? English is a mess because of doing precisely that. ;)
("Orthography? What's that?")
Juerd Ja, umlaut-frei Deutsch! Das waere toll!
Odin-LAP Aieee!
Odin-LAP runs to the hills.
geoffb Juerd, so perhaps native English speakers simply care less about precision . . . .
geoffb shrugs 21:20
Juerd geoffb: Would you care about whitespace within ellipses being ultimately weird?
Su-Shee geoffb: pure Ascii?! :)) no, there are still the german umlauts, but the reformed (we call it deformed ;) spelling spells words of greek origin now in a more "aesy" way. (ugly way ;)
Odin-LAP Ʀ!
geoffb I dunno, Odin-LAP, I just heard that somewhere, I have no knowledge of the truth of it
Su-Shee, ah.
Juerd, old habits die hard. 21:21
geoffb learned touch typing on manual typewriters
Juerd geoffb: Think about the lifetime of your spacebar! You could prolong it by CENTURIES!
Su-Shee geoffb: "philosoph" (old) -> "filosof" (new)
Juerd Well, days, perhaps, but still.
geoffb Juerd, heh
Su-Shee, oh dear. Mark Twain strikes back.
Odin-LAP Su-Shee: Orthography.
Which, incidentally, is a concept the english-speaking world seems not to comprehend. 21:22
Su-Shee geoffb: Well, the first thing _everyone_ would have changed has been the upper and lower case thing in german.. but no.. let's do some fancy utterly useless seplling stuff. ;)
geoffb
.oO( For a deeply technical channel, we do seem to discuss human languages and their foibles an awful lot. )
Odin-LAP still hasn't found a language with worse orthography. That includes french.
geoffb Su-Shee, NODNODNOD
PerlJam geoffb: well ... Larry *is* a linguist
geoffb: and such tendencies run deep on perldom 21:23
s/on/in/
Odin-LAP And every other perler is an amateur linguist.
Or so it would seem.
geoffb PerlJam, but he has never been in here, so far as I know.
Odin-LAP, now *that* I would believe.
Su-Shee Odin-LAP: Worse than german? 21:24
geoffb switches from one-look.com to Google define:, thereby contributing to the borgification of virtuality
Odin-LAP Su-Shee: Deutsche Orthografie ist viel besser als Englisch. :> 21:26
Su-Shee Odin-LAP: :))
Well, I liked chinese. Not our idea of "orthography" ;) 21:27
Odin-LAP Not exactly, no.
Non-alphabetic languages don't really qualify... :p
Su-Shee And a very nice grammar. ;)
Odin-LAP Hm. Don't know much about that. 21:28
Juerd Odin-LAP: Does your shift key wear out quickly?
Odin-LAP Juerd: Hm? Whaddya mean?
Juerd Odin-LAP: Nouns.
Su-Shee Odin-LAP: Well, it's actually rather short as chinese does not know about gender, tenses, numerals, cases, flection of verbs.. :)
geoffb Juerd, good thing keyboards come with two . . .
Odin-LAP Juerd: Dunno. I don't do that much typing in German. :> 21:29
Juerd Odin-LAP: Oh, heh :)
geoffb: Hehe<ws>.<ws>.<ws>. :)
geoffb ROFL
OK, I deserved that
Juerd Everyone deserves a mirror :) 21:30
Now I remember where I saw that weird interpunctual whitespace before! 21:31
MS-DOS!
geoffb OK, I'll use the Unicode thenā€¦
The problem is, it's damn near invisible in a fixed-width font
Juerd Yea.
Odin-LAP Indeed.
Juerd I prefer ASCII ... too.
Odin-LAP likes the LaTeX version. :) 21:32
Juerd Though not . . ., and especially not with whitespace before or after.
geoffb chuckles at the Unicode notes for HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS:
Approximate equivalents:
ā€¢ U+002E FULL STOP U+002E FULL STOP U+002E FULL STOP
Su-Shee Hm. what is the most simple rule that has to work? I always get an error of PGE. 21:34
Juerd Su-Shee: /foo/
That has to match foo.
And not match non-foo. 21:35
Sometimes I wish all life was this simple :)
Su-Shee Hm. I tried my $foo = "barfoobaz"; $m = $foo ~~ /foo/; 21:37
PerlJam Su-Shee: What's the error that you get? 21:38
Su-Shee *** Cannot parse PGE: foo 21:39
*** Error: No such attribute '%:capt'
pmurias Juerd: did you get my email 21:40
?
geoffb Grrrrr ... insert websites-with-tiny-fonts-that-don't-scale-with-ctrl-+ rant here ... 21:41
Juerd pmurias: Yes. Did you get mine? 21:49
geoffb: Minimum font size is a setting.
pmurias Juerd: nope 21:51
geoffb Juerd, I was referring to sites that space everything at fixed pixel locations that work (sortof) with their default 8 pixel high font, but basically become an unreadable mess if you increase the font size ... min size wouldn't help that 21:52
Juerd geoffb: Ah.
pmurias: Fix that then :)
pmurias: 553 5.3.5 xdsl-1122.zgora.dialog.net.pl. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?)
pmurias Juerd: I'll try to fix it tomorow, I've got to get to sleep now. 22:00
svnbot6 r7982 | fglock++ | * /docs/notes/lazyness.txt - first draft on the runtime view of
r7982 | fglock++ | how Lazy things (like Arrays) work.
r7982 | fglock++ | Only the "definitions" part is started.
wolverian fglock, laziness :) 22:04
Su-Shee ok. n8 all. thnx for the help. 22:11
22:28 _SamB_ is now known as SamB

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