The Return of the Journal : pugs.blogs.com/ | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by GammaRay on 31 December 2005.
putter I dont suggest the current approach cease working and being used. simply that the alternative become permissible. 00:00
ah well. just thought I'd raise the idea. 00:01
theorbtwo IIRC, ghc allows you to s|/|.| as much or as little as you like. 00:02
putter found the mono directory listing _vastly_ clearer than its p5 equivalent would have been.
theorbtwo Er, swap that.
putter oo, intriguing. :)
putter ponders whether one could do a macro infix:<.> ($lhs,$rhs) { $lhs ~~ /^[A-Z]w+$/ && .. ?? "{$lhs}::{$rhs}" !! "$lhs.$rhs" } so class Foo.Bar.Hee { ... } worked in p6 too... 00:07
Oh, I'll also flag the issue I tripped over several times, of string returning macros wanting to have some control over when the returned string is macro processed. generally you want it to be, but that precludes defining a macro which overlays a construct defined elsewhere, to provide an ancillary service. 00:12
Juerd: there's no reason that macro couldn't be infix:</> instead of infix:<.> ;) 00:14
p6 is soo going to need coding standards... 00:15
theorbtwo putter: Yes, there is; it'd conflict /badly/ with your basic ability to divide.
putter ah, but how often do you divide with a camel-case function on the rhs, and a camel-case something on the left? 00:17
wolverian next you'll want to enforce camel case package names.. 00:18
putter na. just if your going to use Esthetics::Juerd::SlashSeparator; you have to follow its documented constraints. 00:19
though if there were a hook in the parser for a parse fail, maybe you could wait till it failed, thus not conflicting with anything preexisting, zip in, patch the ast and parser state, and have the parser continue... :-P 00:21
sigh. let's not let things go so long before a release again. this debugging exercise is a real pain. 00:23
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jvoorhis hi 00:31
rafl Hello Juerd 00:33
Err..
Hello jvoorhis
jvoorhis :)
i managed to build parrot and pugs, but i'm not sure what is going on now
should i be able to define classes interactively in pugs? 00:34
audreyt putter: totally agreed. it seems that I won't have this 3-month life crisis repeated anytime soon :)
putter lol ;)
audreyt joepurl: yes. run "pugs" and define classes as usual
jvoorhis or is that as of yet unimplemented, or did i build it wrong? :)
rafb.net/paste/results/JWVOMi25.html 00:35
audreyt $ pugs
pugs> class Foo { has $.bar };
pugs> Foo.new(:bar(3)).bar
3
jvoorhis hmmmm
audreyt jvoorhis: oh. we use readline and it's line-delimiated
instead of waiting until a semicolon 00:36
that can change
jvoorhis ah
audreyt: so as of right now, i have to fit it all on one line?
audreyt jvoorhis: yeah. better ideas welcome 00:37
detect unfinished opening braces / parsefil
jvoorhis audreyt: i've never implemented anything like an interactive interpreter
audreyt and wait until closing brace?
jvoorhis but i'd like it to work like ruby's irb
yeah
exactly
i think python works similarly too - it just waits for... err... fewer spaces :) 00:38
audreyt heh
not really
irb is semantic
if you say
1+
then it waits for you to continue
jvoorhis yeah that is true
audreyt while in py
1+
jvoorhis it's statement or scope oriented
audreyt is a syntax error
jvoorhis :)
i haven't done enough python to know that for a fact 00:39
audreyt naively, it seems irb is vastly superior
jvoorhis spends *lots* of time in irb
wolverian is it possible to know that a statement is not terminated in perl6?
audreyt wolverian: sure
you parse it and get a parsefail ;)
putter pilrun used a blank line
wolverian audreyt, I guess. ;)
putter python's approach is a pain if you are trying to cut and paste 00:40
audreyt indeed
wolverian that opens up the possibility of side effects, though
audreyt python is not a very cutandpastable language
jvoorhis yeah
putter (every line prefixed with "...")
jvoorhis heheh
theorbtwo ...and accidentally finishing early, but we can call that user error.
jvoorhis isn't every statement in perl ended by a ;?
or is the semi optional
audreyt it's optional on the last statement 00:41
jvoorhis it's been a long time since i've used perl
wolverian it's also optional for statement-level functions
jvoorhis ok
that makes sense
thank you
wolverian i.e. for, if, etc.
audreyt jvoorhis: ok, I think we go the irb route. I think.
jvoorhis audreyt: i don't know how well that approach maps to perl, but i find it very usable 00:42
putter or use a common-lisp or scheme as a prototype ;)
jvoorhis also
lypanov audreyt: irb has its own custom parser. it messes up on occasions
jvoorhis ruby has a line continuation character
i assume perl does as well?
example: 00:43
audreyt lypanov: I think we'll use the same parser
jvoorhis 2 + \
2
wolverian audreyt, 1+ is a syntax error in a python file, too, so are you sure it's not semantic?
audreyt jvoorhis: perl has no layout
wolverian: the idea is in irb you can do
irb(main):001:0> 1 +
irb(main):002:0* 2
=> 3
jvoorhis ah, ok
lypanov really loves the irb behaviour
jvoorhis does too
audreyt and I've got it implemented
fixing some corner cases.
(brb) 00:44
jvoorhis :)
wolverian audreyt, yes, at least python's repl does the same thing as python itself. it'd be weird if it was valid in the repl but an error in a .py file
lypanov yeah
jvoorhis so it seems there are other rubyists here
lypanov ruby's parser is a tad messed up
jvoorhis are roles similar to modules in ruby?
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lypanov isn't sure what roles are alas 00:45
wolverian jvoorhis, dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S12.html if you haven't read it yet
jvoorhis wolverian: i've read most of those, but i haven't actually *used* the language yet
ah 00:46
so it is interface + implementation, but you cannot instantiate a role
Juerd It's impossible to have a nice philosophical discussion with a mathematician.
jvoorhis can you add a role to a class at runtime?
wolverian Juerd, there are nice philosophical discussions? 00:47
jvoorhis, yes.
Juerd wolverian: Yes. Are you a mathematician? :)
wolverian er. to an object, yes. I don't know about classes
Juerd Because if so: then no.
wolverian Juerd, I'm half mathematician.
Juerd Then you can only get half-nice philosophical discussions :)
jvoorhis wolverian: ah ok
wolverian I can switch off that part at will.
Juerd (I'm trying to phrase this in a way a mathematician, even a half one, will understand :P) 00:48
wolverian: Then you can get nice philosophical discussions :)
jvoorhis i've been using ruby for nearly a year now and finally comfortable with metaprogramming ruby, and perl6 has been arousing my curiousity
wolverian mm, arousal..
Juerd The key point is to accept that it's impossible for every definitino to be right.
wolverian I can smell it 00:49
Juerd definition
wolverian Juerd, mathematicians also tend to walk out of the room if someone uses philosophical induction
Juerd And if you can mathematically prove something, that may be a side-effect of some other definition also being wrong.
wolverian: Yep 00:50
putter the sbcl repl looks like: 00:52
* (+ 1 00:53
2)
3
note that you can now cut and paste the (+ ...2). something you can't do with the irb repl.
Odin- <3 lispy REPL. 00:54
P6 *need* something like that. :)
putter :)
jvoorhis Odin-: perl syntax isn't quite sexp ;) 00:57
Odin- jvoorhis: That's a temporary condition. ;)
jvoorhis oh?
putter it looks like the pil2run backend is completely dead at this point. but it had a similar repl. no cruft on secondary lines, and input terminated by a blank line. easy enough to write your own repl in p6.
lol 00:58
dduncan okay, my smoke of r8819 haskell/darwin is now uploaded 00:59
says 91% okay
putter Odin-: there was recently quite a bit of blog discussion (which I couldnt refind when I went looking for it) on common-lisp vs ruby. one discussion point ended up being the contrast between lisp macros and ruby parse_tree based ones. sexps being much clearer than explicit ast tags. given that p6 with have ast macros, 01:00
I was wondering if the ast might be abstracted over to get sexp-y like macro writing... ? 01:01
dduncan: ok, that's what I got too. I'm running a smoke-js now. then maybe a smoke-pir. 01:02
audreyt jvoorhis: how would you like to be listed in the AUTHORS file?
(name, etc)
jvoorhis: alternately, if you let me know of your email, I can send you a commit bit now so you can add it in yourself :) 01:03
jvoorhis what did i write? :)
Odin- putter: Hm. Maybe I read it wrong, but when I read the macro parts of the spec, it sounds quite a bit like CL-ish macros.
audreyt "These people have either submitted
patches or suggestions, or their bug reports or comments have inspired"
jvoorhis aye
[email@hidden.address]
dduncan audreyt, is now the start of your day, or did you get up in the middle of sleep?
jvoorhis full name is Jeremy Voorhis, and that would suit me fine 01:04
and thanks! you're trying to suck me into the community aren't you
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dduncan no, its not suck, its blow 01:04
Odin- putter: In any case, macros are supposed to be able to return an arbitrary string which is then parsed. There's no possible way CL macros can be more powerful than P6...
audreyt jvoorhis: well, it's nothing personal
dduncan there's no such thing as sucking 01:05
Odin- Ease-of-use may be an issue, though...
audreyt lypanov: you got a commit bit yet? :)
jvoorhis audreyt: understood - i've been learning about languages lately and i might just spend a good bit of time with p6 01:06
the rules and grammars are especially exciting to me right now
putter Odin-: but (App (Fun (Var (Varname "f"))) (Args [(Lit (Val (Int 3))]) is a lot harder to deal with than (f 3). and that wasnt even the full ast. ;)
so could one deal with the ast as if it simply said f(3). somehow... 01:07
Odin- putter: Point. But you could do a transformation, couldn't you?
putter: But ... erh ... couldn't you pass a grammar match object?
Operate on that in the macro ... return it? 01:08
putter or macros set you up for a ~~ structure match or something
Odin- not very much in on details, to note.
putter you mean using a grammar's underspecced ability to match arbitrary objects? that's a nice idea 01:09
audreyt ...and why am I still implementing features when I should be triaging bugs? ;)
putter lol
audreyt it's implemented though.
committing
putter the lack a of a pithy catch phrase? "pre pre flight"? 01:10
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Odin- putter: Well, since we're talking about the miserably underspecced, but quite clearly planned, macro feature of P6, I don't see why we can't rely on other underspecced parts. ;) 01:11
Basically the only place which says something less vague than "we'll have macros" is a tiny part of Apoc 6, AFAIK... :/ 01:12
svnbot6 r8820 | audreyt++ | * First cut a irb-style line continuation in the interactive
r8820 | audreyt++ | Pugs shell, by waiting for more lines whenever we encounter a
r8820 | audreyt++ | parsefail. Suggested by jvoorhis.
putter indeed. pause. this seems like one instance of a general problem. you have a big hairy graph of data structures and/or objects, and you want to be able to match against it, _and edit/add to it_, using much less hairy code. how can one do this? 01:13
theorbtwo thinks audreyt meant jvoorhis++
audreyt jvoorhis++
theorbtwo putter: We need to leave something for CPAN modules.
svnbot6 r8821 | audreyt++ | * add Jemermy "jvoorhis" Voorhis to AUTHORS.
putter lol 01:14
audreyt pugs> "Hello,
....> world!"
"Hello,\nworld!"
irb changes the prompt based on what's expected
that's trivial to do given parsec's "expected" token group
wolverian hmm, what about 'say \n "foo";'
audreyt but I think I have to stop implementing them now :)
wolverian: same as irb 01:15
"puts" and "say" both runs asis
instead of waiting for stuff
wolverian right. if the line is not a parsefail, it's a statement. otherwise we'd need to wait for ;
thanks for the awesome feature :) audreyt++ 01:16
theorbtwo ...and say() is perfectly valid (though somewhat silly) code.
jvoorhis audreyt++ for listening
audreyt it's the idea that counts... it's just a 10 line patch :)
jvoorhis sure
well, i do spend a lot of time in ruby's repl
theorbtwo Hm, if you write something that's simply invalid code, and press enter, how can you ever get back to a real promopt?
jvoorhis so i might be able to make some usability suggestions if i feel any more friction 01:17
audreyt theorbtwo: ^D
theorbtwo WFM.
(Should be documented, but that can come much later.)
audreyt :)
putter: thanks for a productive shift :) 01:20
audreyt praises putter's alt ctrl shift
putter *groan*
theorbtwo Oy.
putter++
jvoorhis what does alt ctrl shift do 01:22
putter waits for the next key... 01:23
tewk++
theorbtwo jvoorhis: Controls when the normal control shift is sleeping, of course.
audreyt jvoorhis: I live in GMT +800, so when I'm about to sleep, putter takes the "night" shift (from my TZ point of view) to work on release engineering, so he assumes alternate control 01:24
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jvoorhis aye 01:24
audreyt you may have heard that pugs is optimized for pun :)
jvoorhis updates and goes golfing :P
nnunley putter: Slate's prototype system and design is still getting shaken out, so it's still hard to latch on to where to develop from -- I know that most symbols are bound to the lobby, like self, but... The rest is different enough from (but still close to) smalltalk and self to be a pain. 01:25
nnunley groans at audreyt. "On that note."
audreyt jvoorhis: oh btw, commit bit sent. welcome aboard! 01:26
jvoorhis thank you
audreyt now I need to get ready for the new year's eve family gathering and stuff. be back in a few hours
jvoorhis ah
jvoorhis gets back to ruby hacking until work is over
theorbtwo Have fun, Audrey. 01:27
putter little red envelopes?
Odin- So, putter is Commander to audreyt's Captain? 01:28
putter enjoy &
Odin- Or are they at higher ranks? :>
audreyt yeah, and as I'm still at the receiving end, red envelopes are good news
:) *wave* &
putter is the clown that keeps keeps the crowd from becoming restless during intermission
audreyt Odin-: my rank is meta-control-shift, I think
putter old lispm keys... Alt-Control-Shift-Meta-Hyper 01:29
Odin- audreyt: Owh. That means I can't use "aye aye cap'n". :(
putter talk like a pirate day is but once a year
Odin- putter: Not if you're a naval officer, I understand... :D 01:30
But I digress.
putter lol
oh, and Super. 01:31
jvoorhis actually... no more ruby for today
it's the weekend now ;)
putter weekend == python? 01:34
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theorbtwo G'night, all. 01:37
01:38 Amnesiac joined
putter Hey, emacs and X apparently still support Super Hyper. And you can use your "Windows" key as Super. 01:41
good night theorbtwo & 01:42
world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html
jvoorhis putter: not python ;) 01:45
possibly pugs
not rebuilding pugs until i get back to the apt as it is a little intense
putter ah :) 01:47
nnunley: thanks. # slate feedback 01:49
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putter nnunley: it shouldnt be too hard to create an (unspecced) postmultifix to permit smalltalk style function calls. 01:51
sub multifix:<foo bar hee> ($a,$b,$c) {42} say foo 3 bar 4 hee 5; 01:52
the grammar engine is apparently specced as a top-down/bottom-up/top-down-defining-tokens sandwitch 01:54
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putter has anyone been successful running embedded parrot lately? 02:12
02:18 drbean joined 02:20 beppu joined, raar joined 03:05 huaehu joined 03:18 renormalist joined
renormalist Someone awake to help me convert a little perl5 script into pugs/perl6? 03:20
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stocke2 hello 03:23
huaehu when will perl6 be released? before 2010? :P 03:25
stocke2 does anyone know if perl 6 is going to clean up OO in perl? 03:26
dduncan it sure is! 03:28
stocke2 would be nice is kind of a confusing hack right now ;) 03:29
dduncan it should be better in the subsequent release 6.28.0 ... the refactor onto PIL should make objects and other things much cleaner than the current pugs 03:30
stocke2 i wonder when perl 6 will be done 03:32
dduncan define "done" 03:33
perl 6 will always be done, for different definitions of done
stocke2 lol 03:35
kinda like perl 5.8 is done
usable, to the point they start working on the next version 03:36
dduncan well, 6.28.0, perhaps 1 month away, would be a significant milestone, when I see that it can start being seriously used 03:37
stocke2 really?
dduncan yes 03:38
stocke2 once it is ready for serious use we need new editions of the oreilly books
dduncan that would use the new PIL2 as its default foundation, which is much better for building on
huaehu is there a beta version of perl6? or something to start writting/testing perl6 code?
dduncan they are currently coming out on an annual basis
the perl 6 one that is
I think 03:39
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putter fyi, there are now r8818 smokes of pugs, js, and pir. 04:57
good night &
dduncan good night
anyone here? 05:17
azuroth I am 05:23
did you need me here to say good night to you? :-p
dduncan actually, my "good night" was a reply to putter's 05:27
I will be staying up for a few more hours
I was going to ask the opinion of who was here ... 05:28
I'm going through failing ext/ now with the goal to making them not fail their tests
and not die
however, in the short term, one way to do this is to remove functionality from them, such as converting private methods into public ones 05:29
does that sound fine to you?
separately, does 'catfile' sound like something that should be built into perl? 05:30
Config::Tiny's test invokes it, but Config::Tiny doesn't declare it
azuroth hmm. I don't really know. I think private -> public sounds fine
if there was anyone else around, I'm sure they would be more helpful 05:32
dduncan in the case of Config::Tiny, I did a diff between the 6.2.10 distro and the current release, which would have passed all tests, and the current version, showing no changes of significance 05:37
I think
which suggests that catfile was a pugs function before, and now isn't 05:38
because a test containing it worked before
okay, cat_file was declared in ext/File-Spec, and that distro is currently failing some tests ... so fixing File-Spec may fix some other ext/ modules too 05:41
like Config::Tiny
and a quick search shows almost 30 files use 'catfile' ... or did in 6.2.10 05:43
azuroth hmm, okay 05:45
dduncan also the case in the repository 05:46
azuroth what does catfile do?
dduncan so I'm now focusing on ext/File-Spec
I think it just reads in a file, like a combination of open/slurp/close 05:47
its name derives from the 'cat' unix utility, which was used to pump a disk file into a piped operation
short for 'concatenate' 05:48
azuroth oh, cool
dduncan okay, File-Spec is choking on the absense of &devnull 05:49
and &cwd
I see the first test doesn't have the use_ok workaround that some other tests do, so I'll add it 05:51
oh wait
was looking at the 6.2.10 version ... 05:52
I think I found the problem 05:56
azuroth excellent :-)
dduncan essentially, File::Spec itself requires either ::Win32 or ::Unix 05:57
those latter modules declare and export functions that code using File::Spec wants to use
however, the way these are used, said functions are only exported into the File::Spec module namespace itself, not the namespace of the using code, hence the user can't find it 05:58
it seems that the module was relying on a bug in Pugs that no longer exists, where export made things visible everywhere, rather than just to the user
so the fix is to add explicit wrapper functions into File::Spec itself 05:59
I also notice this comment: # The "require" lines above is deliberately not part of the File::Spec package, because we'd like to import on behalf of the caller. Again, a horrible hack. 06:00
I'm led to wonder if such a thing ever worked in the perl 5 version
or is supposed to work in the perl 6 one
azuroth ahh 06:07
dduncan I see the perl 5 version did a subclass arrangement, dynamically 06:11
azuroth very off topic, but in terms of database design... say you were logging bunches of chatrooms to databases, would you have a different table for each room..? 06:28
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dduncan probably not 06:41
assuming that each room is handled the same way by your code
you just have a table column containing a room id or name to say what room you're dealing with, and the other fields are per room
this is conceptually like you have a class for handling a chat room, and you have a separate object for each room 06:43
you don't make a separate class for each room 06:44
azuroth
azuroth hmm, that's a good point
dduncan generally, you make decisions about separate vs combined tables like you do separate vs combined classes 06:45
azuroth that's actually a lot cooler. I could have the user as an id pointing to the jabber ids table 06:47
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azuroth oh, and I can use prepared statements properly 06:50
dduncan yes 06:55
parameters in prepared statements can only go where a literal can go
azuroth thanks :-) 06:56
dduncan ah, and File::Spec now seems to be fixed
I basically rewrote its main file
of course, if it is possible for a subclass of another class to export its methods, then that is probably what the old version was aiming for 06:57
meanwhile, my version keeps them all as modules, and File::Spec wraps the other worker class ... in an elegant fashion ... I think
07:06 drbean joined 07:11 xern joined 07:20 xern joined
dduncan push in progress ... 07:20
slowly ...
svnbot6 r8822 | Darren_Duncan++ | r2167@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4: darrenduncan | 2006-01-27 23:18:30 -0800 07:22
r8822 | Darren_Duncan++ | fixed File::Spec in ext/ (rewrote a lot of it) so it works (details also added to ChangeLog), which has a side-effect of making several other ext/ modules pass their tests; the problem mainly concerned the namespaces to which 'is export' exported to
dduncan so all the ext/File-Spec tests were directly fixed by that 07:24
also, the ext/Config-Tiny tests were indirectly fixed by that
fyi, I don't put things like ext/Config-Tiny working in the ChangeLog since they worked in the last release, which the ChangeLog is a delta record of, and any problems it had weren't in the module itself 07:27
azuroth you should. then you'd get more karma :-)
but that makes sense 07:28
dduncan the thing is, I see the 'ChangeLog' file as being for end users ...
who want a summary of, in this case, what's different between 6.2.10 and 6.2.11
things that were changed, and then undone, in the interim don't appear there
things that stopped working and then started working again without direct changes also don't go there 07:29
details of breaks and fixes in the interim go just in the subversion commit log, for developers that want to know about inter-release revisions 07:30
azuroth ahh yeah
dduncan the failures in ext/FA-DFA were not affected by my fix 07:31
also, ext/FindBin also works after my commit 07:35
azuroth I'm playing with jabberd, it's pretty nifty 07:36
dduncan okay, all ext//Pod-Event-Parser now work following my change 07:42
svnbot6 r8823 | Darren_Duncan++ | r2169@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4: darrenduncan | 2006-01-27 23:40:44 -0800
r8823 | Darren_Duncan++ | add self to author of File-Spec
dduncan in total, around 4-5 ext/ distros appear to have been fixed by r8822 07:47
starting smoke of r8823 ... 07:49
should be done in 2 hours 07:50
tomorrow I should be able to fix most of the other ext/ deaths, which I would imagine are the same kind of problem ... is export not doing what it used to ... or maybe something about private subs, but more likely the other given few people use privates afaik 07:52
audreyt, putter, and whomever, you should focus on any t/ failures ... I'll handle most ext/ failures, since they're probably not due to problems with pugs itself 07:53
07:56 Alias_ joined
Alias_ audreyt: ping? 07:56
Generalised question, are the names of the module schemes for use documented somewhere
07:58 xinming joined 08:03 kane_ joined
Alias_ kane_: ping? 08:10
08:18 iblechbot joined
svnbot6 r8824 | audreyt++ | * Various bug triaging, too many to list. 08:21
08:23 _bernhard joined 08:48 elmex joined 08:51 avar joined 09:01 G2 joined 09:03 Cryptic_K joined 09:17 lisppaste3 joined, Alias_ joined 09:23 avarab joined 10:12 wilx joined 10:18 iblechbot joined 10:38 nnunley joined 10:40 j0sephi joined
dduncan smoke of r8823 is done and uploaded ... now I to bed at 3am 11:02
lypanov night dduncan
dduncan and a smoke comparison shows 23 fewer test failures 11:03
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kane_ Alias_: pong 11:51
Alias_ kane_: Is 6PAN dealing at any level with the whole auth naming scheme in use xxxx-xxxx-xxx
Are you providing auths for more than one? 11:52
kane_ alias: i'm not sure what you mean...
Alias_ erm
So use has use perl5:something right?
kane_ yeah, it's outlined in one of the synopsis'
but that's just the language implementation of loading the right file
that's not 6pan's 'problem' if that makes sense ;) 11:53
Alias_ well, 6pan is being the auth for the perl6 scheme or something right?
So are you planning to make it also host others?
Like a pure parrot one etc etc
kane_ sure.. the 6pan one is actually language independant
let me grab you a link, sec 11:54
Alias_ Did my comments to Audrey about the file layout get back to you btw?
kane_ i dont think so
Alias_ The problem with pregenerating all those index .gz files
kane_ svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/AES/S22draft.pod 11:55
the section just before the __END__ marker addresses 'use' statemetns 11:56
Alias_ yeah that was the one
That index structure is a problem
I have a better alternative :) 11:57
kane_ you mean the section under '=head1 Repositories' ?
Alias_ yep
11:57 elmex joined
kane_ ok, by all means explain what you maen -- i believe rafl got this from the debian layout, and was writing some code to test if this was A Good Way To Go 11:58
Alias_ I need to go for a bit, and my time is really limited this weekend, but can we talk later?
kane_ what are you seeing as a problme for htis?
alias_: perhaps, not sure if i'll be here -- it's weekend here too, and the girlfriend might have some ideas ;)
Alias_ I don't really have time to go into details, but basically the problem is at a conceptual level
To do with naming scheme 11:59
There are some MUCH better ways to handle it, similar to the work on my PhotoN thing...
kane_ ok, nothing's set in stone yet, so might be good to get the 3 of us together and look this over
Alias_ ok, as long as you don't start building before I get a chance to layout an alternative :) 12:00
(I much better one) :)
(A ...
kane_ you're so modest too ;)
btw, it's rafl who was actually working on this, just FYI ;0)
Alias_ I finally kicked audreyt off cpan ladder 1st position, I get to be confident today
of course, only because I stole Module::Install :) 12:01
When she does the next release I go back to 2
kane_ off for food for me too -- i'll catch you later alias :)
Alias_ later
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rafl Alias_: Why do you update Module::Install just a few hours after I updated it in Debian? :-P 12:06
Alias_ heh 12:07
sorry
There was a problem with install_share
it was installing files into arch, not lib
And so file::sharedir and (now) file;:userconfig were getting confused
Shouldn't effect anything that doesn't use File::ShareDir 12:08
rafl prepares a new upload..
Alias_ You don't have it automated?
rafl I have pretty much everything automated that's worth being automated. 12:09
Alias_ ok
rafl But you can't do everything in an automated fashion.
I look up the changelog for every release and see if it concerns packaging stuff, new dependencies, etc.. 12:10
lypanov bah. just a simple ai
Alias_ fair enough though 12:14
About the only thing I don't have automated for my development now is the actual upload
just in case :)
I can see how there's similar issues with M:I 12:16
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merlyn stares at his future {grin} 12:39
Juerd Hi merlyn
merlyn hey 12:47
Just seeing if I remembered my freenode password after 48 hours. :)
woke up with that "omg... did I forget it again?" feeling. :)
Juerd Freenode sucks immensely because of the nickserv crap 12:49
The people who declared private messages a great risk, and think this is a solution, should be punished.
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lypanov Juerd: just having NickServ reply when you privmsg would already help so damn much 13:04
theorbtwo Hm, I could of sworn he did, but he doesn't seem to now...
Oh, yes, he does, my irssi just didn't highlight the window correctly. 13:06
lypanov i don't mean a notify, i mean he should privmsg you
theorbtwo Oh! You mean nickserv should message you when you try to /msg anybody when not identified. 13:07
Yes, that would be very useful.
lypanov nods 13:09
lypanov notes that his local moroccan baker produces some seriously addictive cakes 13:12
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svnbot6 r8825 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Shell: disable readline's sigwinch and signal handling, 14:14
r8825 | audreyt++ | so the interactive shell no longer randomly segfaults under
r8825 | audreyt++ | threaded builds.
clkao audreyt: happy new year 14:15
audreyt happy new year too! 14:16
probably not going to stay awake
clkao will be around taipei next week, hack-p? 14:17
audreyt for the chronosaur to appear
clkao lol
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audreyt hi pdcawley 14:22
pdcawley Hello audrey. How goes? 14:24
audreyt quite well. doing some journaling before sleep 14:26
pdcawley Ah... I look forward to some fascinating reading. 14:27
audreyt :) 14:28
obra 'morning 14:29
audreyt yo 14:31
obra Halos got...close on the plane. I hurt myself by not having cached css and js references on the laptop
also, good tailwinds got us in very early ;) 14:32
audreyt I parsed is as something about solar wind halos attacking the plane and you narrowedly escaped death but injured yourself 14:33
I'm glad it was a parsefail
obra heh
audreyt++ # active imagination 14:34
audreyt I get karma by being insane?
hm, that's actually the norm here, to think about it
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obra indeed it is 14:35
constructive insanity
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audreyt whew. two journals in a day ;) 15:27
audreyt waves. good night! &
obra night 15:29
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dakkar I'm reading S06, and I find the "splat" way to pass named arguments from pairs or hashes potentially confusing... 16:27
I mean: foo(*%hash) is a splat; foo(%*hash) is a 1-parameter passing a global hash... 16:28
I think I'll overstress C-t while writing p6 code :/
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dakkar still from S06: «To pass pairs out of hash without their being interpreted as named parameters, use %hash<a>:p instead» 16:32
why? are not pairs detected «at the comma level», so that «doit $pair,1,2,3; # always a positional arg» ? 16:33
why should it be diffirent if the pair is coming from a hash subscript expression, instead that from a scalar ref?
dakkar is trying to understand... 16:34
what is «say *pop(@array);»? is *pop the global sub named 'pop', or a splat of the result? 16:35
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dakkar hit the close button by accident 16:37
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nothingmuch wonders if perl could do with a prototype object system 20:07
that is just really well hidden
since prototype models non prototype well, but not vice versa (given enough sugar), and SMD is a subset of MMD functionality, this can really simplify the specs 20:08
all the other crap can be pushed to the Prelude
and since we assume the prelude can be uptimized in larger chunks we can simply have implementations of those features in PIR for parrot, etc
like, for speed
nothingmuch thinks Perl 6 ought to be a smaller language than it is, and these kinds of savings could really help 20:09
tewk Iteresting, where can i read about "prototype models non prototype well, but not vice versa (given enough sugar), and SMD is a subset of MMD functionality" 20:10
nothingmuch you sound like Eliza 20:11
p6l archives
and, err, just common sense really 20:12
our object space stuff could be implemented as a prototype system
eliminating circularity
but getting a very close effect
and SMD isa MMD - well, it just is 20:13
if you only have one MMD variant, it's as if it's single method dispatch
since there's no alternative
the plus side is that we get built in prototype OO 20:15
which is good for some things
and the MMD/SMD implementation details are simpler to spec
meppl gute nacht 20:30
nothingmuch ciao 20:41
meppl ;) 20:46
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dduncan now I'm getting a build failure, following the last update ... 21:05
Compiling Pugs.Shell ( src/Pugs/Shell.hs, dist/build/src/Pugs/Shell.o ) /tmp/ghc12129.hc: In function 'PugsziShell_readline_entry': /tmp/ghc12129.hc:121: error: 'rl_catch_signals' undeclared (first use in this function) /tmp/ghc12129.hc:121: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once /tmp/ghc12129.hc:121: error: for each function it appears in.) /tmp/ghc12129.hc:122: error: 'rl_catch_sigwinch' undeclared (first use i 21:06
I'll try a make clean again
since that seemed to work on a similar problem yesterday
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dduncan that didn't work 21:40
following 'make realclean'
I get the same error in build
someone else, please confirm
if this is working fine for others, I may try a full checkout directory delete and revert 21:41
tewk dduncan: building now 21:42
dduncan thank you ... 21:51
Khisanth audreyt: you have a typo in your Dec 28 blog entry :) 21:57
tewk dduncan: build just fine. 22:12
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dduncan okay 22:45
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dduncan okay, so I've now done the delete and revert thing with the whole pugs checkout dir 22:55
now trying 'make' again ...
integral that looks related to your libreadline... 22:58
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dduncan that didn't help ... same error 23:47
does Pugs have some new dependency that I have to install?
or a dependency that differs between platforms?
I'm using stock Mac OS X 10.4.4 (Jan, 2006), save for installing the svk 1.06 bundle, ghc 6.4.1
several 'rl_catch_*' symbols undeclared 23:48
in function 'PugsziShell_readline_entry' 23:49
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dduncan the only other thing I have yet to try is reverting to an older pugs and see if the problem goes away 23:49
besides trying that or installing something, all attempts to 'make' fail when compiling Pugs.Shell 23:50
integral ah, r8825 changes Pugs.Shell
dduncan back in a bit 23:51
integral hrm, the change shouldn't have been significant 23:52
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