6.2.11 released! | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by audreyt on 1 February 2006.
rhesa Congratulations on the new release folks! 01:03
dduncan I Nth that notion 01:07
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dduncan I have download and am now smoking the official 6.2.11 CPAN release 02:36
er, I'm making it right now, will smoke
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azuroth "I dropped out of school at the age of 3" "why?" "because all the teachers tried to player hate on me" 03:21
dduncan now smoking the 6.2.11 release 03:36
this time, the prelude was compiled, so speed is normal
should be done in about 135 minutes 03:37
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putter I'm trying to think of a name for a file. It's like READTHEM, but more transient, less curated. Basically, papers that went by on #perl6, that someone thought highly enough about (whether they read them or not) to add to a file. So I don't again have to grovel over weeks of irc log trying to find a paper. Thoughts? 03:39
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putter perhaps ideally matches READ[U-Z].* 03:40
rhesa READXTRAS? bleh 03:42
READWEITER ;)
mlh_ READTOO? 03:43
putter weiter? 03:45
READTOO... hmm... 03:46
READUP?
ok, READTOO seems the best so far... any other ideas? 03:47
rhesa weiter is german for further. but i agree that READTOO is the best
azuroth READYRC ;-)
putter *groan* ;) 03:48
oh, thanks all
s/oh/ok/
"readyrc" grumble grumble groan 03:53
svnbot6 r8938 | putter++ | READTOO: New file for papers recently mentioned on #perl6.
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lypanov obviously it should have been READON .. :P 05:44
Daveman :p 05:53
Kattana READALSO or FURTHERREADING sound better/make more sense imo 06:04
wolverian easier to find with READ<tab> 06:06
(than FURTHERREADING)
dduncan okay, I just posted a smoke of the release version of Pugs 6.2.11, haskell runcore, darwin 06:07
no errors, as expected
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offby1 bah. Built r8934 from svn.openfoundry.org/pugs on Debian sarge; "make test" passed (first time I ever saw that -- great work!). 08:42
but now, when I run ./pugs, it dies with a segfault ...
wolverian ouch..
offby1 I _did_ try "fakeroot make -f debian/rules binary".
I wonder if that hosed something.
(probably did ...)
wolverian try without? and report back :)
offby1 well, I expect I'll have to "make clean all", which will take ... long enough that I'll fall asleep. 08:43
oh well
my fault
wolverian maybe it's faster to download again? :) 08:44
offby1 yeah, there's likely an x86 binary somewhere.
I've never done that; always built from svn, for no particularly good reason.
wolverian it's actually in debian, but I don't know if 6.2.11 is yet
(unstable, naturally..)
offby1 yeah, I'm running stable. 08:45
stuff from unstable tends to want to pull in a new libc6, which scares me.
wolverian are you sure you want to do anything at all on it? isn't stable meant for an environment that doesn't change, at all? :)
lypanov win 2 08:46
wolverian lose 3
offby1 I assume it doesn't change except for security updates.
cool zippy stuff I usually build from source, and keep well separated from the OS.
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szbalint heh, I see not only me uses irssi here. ;) 08:47
wolverian yeah. I generally steal another box from somewhere to use new things on
and keep the old one running stable
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offby1 hmm, the "Download" link on search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs/ gets me a 404 08:48
wolverian it's most likely not on your mirror yet 08:49
offby1 "make unoptimized"-ing
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lypanov wolverian: ;) 08:54
wolverian just realistic :)
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gaal I'm pretty sure 6.2.11 hasn't hit unstable yet. 09:43
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dduncan fyi, corresponding to Pugs 6.2.11 release on cpan, the perl 5 counterparts of my perl 6 modules bundled with it (Locale-KeyedText, Rosetta, Rosetta-Engine-Native) have been uploaded to cpan in 3 distros 10:10
after some pause, you should see them as versions 1.72.1, 0.720.0, 0.1.0 respectively
you heard it here first
those are the first post-rewrite versions of Rosetta on cpan 10:11
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lypanov dduncan: is there a good summary of rosetta lying around anywhere? 10:25
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dduncan there are several, of different levels of accuracy 10:26
one is in ext/Rosetta/docs
that one should take 4 minutes to read aloud
it was written 2 months before the rewrite, so some details are now false, but the general idea is still true 10:27
I hope to have better unified docs over time
lypanov thx. i'll take a look at that :) 10:28
dduncan a more up to date summary is that ...
Rosetta is a federated truly relational database whose query language is derived from Tutorial D, which is like relational algebra, and not very much like SQL 10:29
it gets its name because it is also good for making database engine independent apps
I'm also positioning it as a good tool to make object relational mappers with 10:30
lypanov how's it doing database backend wise?
dduncan the current post-rewrite version is mostly documentation, and doesn't implement any backends yet
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dduncan that should happen over the next month, at least one backend 10:31
lypanov neat :)
unit tested?
dduncan even the documentation needs a lot added or changed, but I figured I should push what I had now as a snapshot
it is very component based, so it should be easy to unit test
unlike DBI, which just provides database driver independence, Rosetta provides database language independence 10:32
besides that docs/ file, look at the various pod in the lib/ directory for various pieces of info 10:33
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lypanov dduncan: is it a sane design that won't make me want to cry? 10:44
dduncan: dbi is awful in both api design and implementation...
dduncan: my last experience with hacking up a workaround for a bug in the db we used ended up with me writing the patch for ruby dbi and then porting as i just couldn't code otherwise :P 10:45
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dduncan lypanov, you shouldn't have any of those problems with Rosetta 11:06
it is designed to be sane, and elegant, and more or less to be mathematically/logically sound
of course, I welcome all possible assistence to make it better, including design 11:07
but I have to bed now, so that's for another day
the design is intended to be both correct and unambiguous 11:08
lypanov, who are you outside #perl6? 11:12
are you in the pugs AUTHORS file, or have a cpan id ? 11:13
I saw no "lypanov" in either place 11:14
actually, I may have found you ... 11:15
is this yours: www.lypanov.net/ ?
I'll assume so, since it talks about Ruby 11:16
well, good night
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lypanov mornin' chris2 13:08
chris2 hi lypanov 13:09
lypanov: i got my toy compiler to work today =) 13:13
audreyt chris2: ooh, url? 13:21
lypanov chris2: yay! 13:22
heya audreyt :)
szbalint morning. 13:24
chris2 audreyt: nothing to see yet
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audreyt :) 13:35
audreyt is still recovering after a 15hr sleep
clkao has been sketching new svk internals with perl6 classes etc. breezy! 13:38
audreyt indeed? nice 13:39
I slept till 8pm
clkao: are you using the full set of features S12 offers?
in particular "handles"
clkao we might still have a chance to meet tomorrow. i also want to make the js backend prelude compilation not suck
ya, handles. and method signatures
audreyt cool
clkao ( --> SVK::Root) 13:40
audreyt woot
ok... I may have some time tomorrow afternoon
not sure yet
clkao can one say ( --> (SVK::Root, SVK::Foo, Hash of something)) ?
audreyt characteristically of me, my cellphone is already lost
clkao i am just using it to help myself thinking. as we know, a real language helps a lot finding out stupidness 13:41
audreyt and the answer is yes, you can write that
clkao whoot
audreyt method foo ((A, B, C) --> (D, E, F)) ought to be legal
though you'll need to use := instead of = to take advantage of the types 13:42
clkao := in ?
audreyt otherwise it distributes using normal list distribution semantics (ala p5)
my ($d, $e, $f) := $obj.foo($a, $b, $c);
clkao ah.
audreyt which is good, as it involves no copying 13:43
and can reuse the same heap objects (or registers, or boxes, or whatever the underlying runtime uses)
clkao do you still remmeber the context issue in pil? i don't see them map correctly to what Want should know.
if only we start to care about performance :P
audreyt ah, but that's SEP
clkao grins
audreyt someone else's (in particular, Leo, Nicholas and Brendon's) problem 13:44
or maybe s/Nicholas/$&+Rafael/
PILN is reasonably optimized for performance... but only when clarity is not at risk
I'm not going to pull the -optc-O3 tricks the #haskell people are doing for alioth 13:45
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clkao how about the context thingy? 13:46
kolibrie my svk update is only pulling down up to r8820. how do I unstick it? 13:47
audreyt svk sy -s 8821 //mirror/pugs 13:48
try that
kolibrie tries
audreyt clkao: the static context inferencer is not what you want... JS needs its own dynamic context info
clkao: do you just want item/slurpy distinction or down to types as well? 13:49
clkao no no, Want.Scalar, Want.Void etc
audreyt so just the same as perl5 13:50
clkao perl5 backend already have want?
audreyt er no, I mean the same granularity as perl5's watnarray
wantarray, even
kolibrie audreyt: Retrieving log information from 8821 to 8938
clkao sure, but i suppose pil should give me the inforamtion?
kolibrie audreyt: thanks
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audreyt clkao: so there are static contexts and dynamic contexts 13:51
clkao: before we have "proto" support, there can be no useful static context information really 13:52
except maybe for invoking closure literals or lexical scoped subroutines
the reason for this is that the user is free to insert new variants at runtime, or rebind existing (multi)subs away into something that yields a different context 13:53
clkao er? i am talking about things like the differences between calling is(not(), undef) and (not())
audreyt clkao: yeah, (not()) is guaranteed void 13:54
but is(not(), undef) doesn't guarantee anything for not()'s context, statically, at this moment
unless &is is early bound with a type signature 13:55
docs/notes/context_*.pod attempts to fix this
as is docs/notes/mmd*
but neiter are implemented at this moment, so you have to rely on dynamic information instead of looking at the PIL tree
clkao ok. 14:01
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tewk Morning Stevan 14:59
stevan morning tewk
tewk Whats on the radar now the release is out the door, pug wise that is. 15:01
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Limbic_Region tewk - I would imagine objects objects objects for 6.28. IIRC, audreyt wants to make that the next release 15:13
stevan Limbic_Region: yup, 6.28 is the "Object" release and will be the next one we do 15:14
it should also have the new PIL2 runcode
tewk stevan: So I have an hour or two to burn, what in PILN needs tests or something like that? 15:17
stevan tewk: I think the PILN classes more needs a serious reworking 15:18
we have to fix the representation type issue
resolve how &bless works with &CREATE
or doesnt work with it,.. I am not 100% sure yet 15:19
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stevan is just waiting for $work to slow up a bit so he can get back to pugs 15:20
tewk Where can I find irc logs for #perl6? 15:23
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putter howdy all 15:23
colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 15:24
stevan heya putter 15:25
putter heya. re piln, I have only the fuzziest picture of it myself, but perhaps there's more to it that is stable than uncertain? on the one side, there's lots of stuff beside the type rep, and on the other, client side, a lot of the object prelude is independent of the details of the metamodel. or am I missing the point? 15:29
szbalint hey 15:30
putter I guess my real question is "What is piln?" :) What should I read/look at?
stevan putter: what do you mean by "a lot of the object prelude is independent of the details of the metamodel"? 15:31
Limbic_Region tewk - in general, if you want to find information about Pugs or #perl6 check the pugs homepage - the links are there 15:35
putter I was thinking in terms of class String is Item { method mumble....} or whatever. where CREATE/bless decisions perhaps only affect a line or two. but now that you ask, another concept is
stevan yeah those are the boxed types
String, etc 15:36
Limbic_Region stevan - I am waiting for life to slow up so I can think about getting involved with Pugs again, write a book, learn C and Haskell up skydiving - err the list goes on and on
putter putting together an oo interface to piln code is also something which could likely be done now (assuming it hasnt been already)
stevan putter: OO interface?
putter it would be nice to be able to manipulate piln trees in p6
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stevan it has basic method dispatch, and a fully bootstrapped metamodel already 15:37
putter: that would be nice,..
putter so how would you suggest someone get a handle on piln? start at the test suite and work backward?
stevan putter: the best way to understand piln is to understand the Perl6-ObjectSpace stuff 15:38
putter looking...
stevan putter: the basic idea is to create a core set of "things" that the runtime must implement 15:39
those core things are then used to construct the metamodel
then the metamodel is used to construct the contianer types
then the boxed types are created or wrapped with the metamodel 15:40
then we have the containers, the boxed types and the metamodel
then we build some kind of bridge between this runtime system and Perl 6 15:41
that bridge is PIL2
the PILN VM is basically those "core things" 15:45
the fuzzy hand waving part of all this is the "bridge to Perl 6" part,.. but I think audreyt has that worked out in her head, just not in bits yet
of course there are other fuzzy details too like containers and boxed types,.. but that is what the whole repr debate/issue is about
basically asking the question "what is the best way to handle these"
stevan has to run and grab some more coffee bbiab &
putter oh, drat. ah well. ;) 15:46
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putter so, my first question is, wasn't there a concept that pil-mumble was going to be "a language, like scheme, but with additional constructs to handle p6's richer semantics"? So I was imagining I would be saying "ok, there's lambda, there's the dynamic environment, there's exceptions and continuations, ...". no? 15:53
gaal so, trying to add exports for vars, but ruleVarDeclaration is full of distractions 15:54
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gaal my $a is AAA, $b is export; # what's exported? 15:55
my $a, $b is export # for that matter
of course there are crazier combos:
my $a := $b is export = 42; 15:56
putter eeep
integral ah, C's *'s problem
putter has always been a bit puzzled by the "is export" concept. 15:57
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gaal const * const :-) 15:57
putter: by itself it isn't that bad
putter Though I suppose this is a general "how do you apply....attributes(?)" to variables.
gaal it's a decoration on a var marking it as exportable
theorbtwo What's confusing about the product of two constants? <G>
putter :)
theorbtwo Anyway, I think the answer is that is binds tightly.
gaal theorbtwo: no, actually it's an OCaml tuple of two consts :-p 15:58
theorbtwo my $a, $b is export, I think, just exports $b.
cognominal in rules what the diff between <null> and <?null>
putter is there anyone to distribute an "is mumble" over a bunch of vars?
gaal my ($a, $b, $c) is export; #?? 15:59
putter null? you mean nothing?
gaal clearly sanity is a precious thing
because there's so little of it
putter (or is putter remembering the name wrong..)
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cognominal putter: see in S06 the part with the header "nothing is illegal" 16:00
putter oh, right. <null>. nothing is a sub.
stevan putter: PILn is a language like scheme 16:01
but a very minimal one
gaal is very glad for that rule - I was actually bitten by null| in p5 just a few days ago
putter cognominal: <null> creates a capture (not entirely uninteresting - has position info after all), but <?null> doesnt?
stevan putter: there is lambdas, a dynamic environment, lists, hashes, numbers, strings,... no exceptions and continutations though 16:02
cognominal ok, thx
it is a long time I have not read the synopsis. MAny thingd have changed
putter had to grep dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S05.html 16:03
stevan: non-determinacy?
cognominal ho that was S05 not S06, sorrt about that.
theorbtwo Mmmpf. Is the tree not compiling now, or is my checkout toasted again? 16:04
putter r8933 was fine for me 16:05
stevan putter: what do you mean?
szbalint Is there somewhere a list of what is currently implemented in Pugs aside the source code and the verbose changelog? I'm looking for a shorter summary. 16:09
cognominal $<0 1 2> is equivalent to $/[0,1,2] # should not that read $/<0 1 2> is equivalent to $/[0,1,2] ?
offby1 bah. Built r8934 from svn.openfoundry.org/pugs on Debian sarge; "make test" passed (first time I ever saw that -- great work!). but now, when I run ./pugs, it dies with a segfault ... 16:19
wonder if there's something odd about not passing it any command-line arguments.
unfortunately I don't get a meaningful stack trace if I invoke it under gdb.
... looks like it's in some sort of recursive loop -- the stack has hundreds of frames. 16:21
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putter offby1: embedded parrot? 16:25
offby1 you know -- I don't know.
how do I find out?
(oddly, 'make test' passes.)
putter set your PATH so parrot can't be found, and try "a" ~~ /a/ ? 16:26
offby1 one moment.
putter oh, better also not have parrot where PARROT_PATH said it would be
putter thinks it would be nice to have a $PUGS_mumble variable saying what's embedded. or is that info available via config? 16:27
offby1 well, I "hid" parrot, so it's no longer on my PATH, but the problem persists.
the problem doesn't happen if I give it some command-line arguments: in gdb I typed <<run -e 'say "what"'>>, and that worked fine 16:28
not surprisingly
putter cognominal: $0 $1 $2 all work. their aliases for $/[0] $/[1] $/[2]. so that may be valid? though perhaps unnecesary
s/their/they're/
gaal offby1: embedded or external parrot? 16:29
offby1 gaal: I don't know.
gaal offby1: is there an old parrot installed too?
offby1 gaal: I don't have a "parrot" executable on my PATH, for what that's worth. 16:30
gaal offby1: when you ran perl Makefile.PL, did you have PUGS_EMBED include "parrot" ?
offby1 gaal: again, I don't know. The command I typed was "perl Makefile.PL".
cognominal putter: oh, ok. I got it. it is also equivalent to $/<0 1 2> but that was not the point that was made in the doc. 16:31
offby1 gaal: so I didn't set PUGS_EMBED by hand, but I have no idea what its default value (if any) is.
gaal It's not to embed.
offby1 OK, then I didn't ask to embed parrot.
gaal but to make sure: please ldd pugs|grep parrot
putter stevan: sorry. an amb() or choice() operator. perhaps with a fail() and maybe commit() to go with it. amb(exp1,exp2), evaluate one of the exp, it decides which, and maybe you get to ask it to choose another (fail) and to cease accepting such requests (commit).
cognominal TSMWTDI! # There are so many ways to do it! 16:32
offby1 gaal: ldd shows no "parrot".
szbalint How long should "perl Makefile.PL" take btw?
offby1 not very.
gaal offby1: okay. please strace -o /tmp/something ./pugs -e "something that segfaults"
and find the last mention of parrot in /tmp/something 16:33
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offby1 gaal: one moment. 16:33
gaal oh wait! did you say just "./pugs" segfaults for you? 16:34
offby1 gaal: yes.
gaal then it's probably similar to the readline trouble people were having on MacOSX
offby1 gaal: and there's no mention of parrot whatever in the output from stracce.
gaal offby1: right, that was a red herring, sorry.
offby1 nods
gaal you have trouble with the interactive shell.
ldd pugs | grep readline ? 16:35
putter could someone with an embedded parrot look at ./pugs -V and see if there is any sign of it?
gaal putter: there is not.
offby1 gaal: libreadline.so.5 => /lib/libreadline.so.5 (0x40017000)
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gaal offby1: okay, same version as mine. but i don't have the problem :( 16:36
offby1 :( indeed
gaal offby1: hmmm, how big is your src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs ?
offby1 $ ll src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs 16:37
-rw-r--r-- 1 erich erich 3311450 Feb 2 01:18 src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs
gaal okay, so you have a standard precomp prelude... is the segfault immediate or after the banner shows?
offby1 what's weird is that when it segfaults, not only does pugs die (of course), but the shell from which I invoked it also dies. I don't know if I've ever seen behavior like that before.
gaal: after the banner
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gaal I suspect the readline stuff. 16:38
offby1 me too
seems reasonable
wonder if I can re-build without readline.
I wouldn't miss it. 16:39
gaal when was your last dist-upgrade? (you said debian unstable yes?)
offby1 gaal: no, debian Sarge, which is stable.
stevan putter: in what context would that be in?
gaal We have lots of knobs in the build system, but I don't think it's possible to configure pugs to build w/o readline :( 16:40
offby1 any way to get gdb to work?
gaal well, you can trace the output of the probing and hack it to suppress it...
offby1 gaal: probing? Are you talking to me, or to someone else?
svnbot6 r8939 | putter++ | TASKS +=1; ./pugs -V should mention whether parrot is embedded or not.
gaal gdbing a haskell program is... sanitaxing. 16:41
offby1: I was.
offby1 I don't know what "probing" is in this context, and ... I don't know what "sanitaxing" is, but I can guess, and I agree :-|
gaal offby1: when you create the makefile, there's some automagic detection of your system
offby1 ah
so I can hide the readline headers and re-rerun Makefile.PL :-)
offby1 hides stuff a lot
"sanitaxing" -- taxing of one's sanity 16:42
gaal chmod -r may be sufficient :) too bad there's no "temp" directive for unix commands
offby1 or "local"
gaal offby1: indeed, we like portmanteaus here
offby1: "temp" is p6 for "local"
offby1 that is to say: you're portmantliking
gaal: ah 16:43
nothingmuch hola
offby1 see, I know so little of p6.
guess I'll just write little scripts for now.
gaal aloha mr nm sir!
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offby1 is there some official way to report this as a bug? 16:43
gaal consider it reported :) but you can write to p6-c if you prefer.
offby1 nah
I'd rather consider it reported; you sound authoritative
(I'll believe anyone who sounds authoritative; it's a weakness :-| ) 16:44
gaal stop believing me!
(heh heh heh.)
offby1 I don't believe you when you say you're not believable.
gaal stop believing just anyone who sounds authoritative!
offby1 I'll try, I promise. 16:45
stevan suggests gaal say that in a more authoritative tone of voice
gaal is reminded of Smullyan riddles
offby1 Does the barber shave himself?
szbalint you're not alone offby1. Most people are like that. :)
offby1 szbalint: that's why we have the government we do :-|
it's all my fault.
offby1 sulks 16:46
szbalint Since I don't know you personally and can't see your host I can only wonder which government you mean.
It is probably true to every one of them though. :)
putter stevan: in piln? another, perhaps more useful construct, would be a "I don't care what order these happen in". I don't remember the name for that. the semantics of let (vs let*) in scheme. its a way of avoiding adding incedental ordering constraints.
offby1 is USA-ian 16:47
putter "$x should be set to 1, and $y to 2, but I dont care in what order this occurs".
stevan putter: PILN doesnt work on that level really, I think that will be the territory of PIL2, and it will just compile the PILN as appropriate
gaal darn, I was about to suggest to offby1 to use examples/obfu/l33t.p6 as a replacement REPL till pugs' is fixed, but I notice it's accrued a bug :-( 16:48
putter or more usefully, @a[0..2000] = @b[2..2002] and I don't care in what order the cell assignments occur.
stevan putter: that might be handled with a lazy generator anyway
offby1 well, I'm not l33t myself, so it'd be pretentious to use it.
stevan sees that as two lazy slices, and a lazy assignment 16:49
offby1 (plus my eyes would cross)
gaal offby1: you magically become l33t when you use it
putter looks at the looong backlog, decides to ask
offby1 gaal: but I don't -want- be become l33t.
then I'd have to play video games.
and drink Mountain Dew.
putter gaal: so what's the one-liner summary of offby1's issue?
offby1 putter: pugs segfaults when invoked with no arguments.
szbalint Anyone who has a number in his nick, is by definiton, l33t. :)
gaal putter: interactive repl segfaults on debian stable.
16:49 offby1 is now known as dummy
putter ouch 16:50
dummy feels better
szbalint lol.
16:50 dummy is now known as offby1
putter platform info? ghc version? parrot version? gcc version (3or4)? 16:51
gaal putter: we're suspecting readline is the culprit. offby1, what does dpkg -l libreadline say?
offby1 putter: Debian sarge (stable), ghc 6.4, not using parrot, gcc (GCC) 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-13) 16:52
gaal grrr, or wahtever package provides it
putter stevan: ok. I was just going down my fuzzy mental list of constructs I've seen kernel languages support. wondering what pil... "piln", yes? supports.
offby1 libreadline5-dev 5.0-10
stevan putter: its basically lambda calc + a few literals
gaal FWIW, on unstable I have 5.1-5 16:53
stevan most of the fancy stuff you are talking about will likely be handled in PIL2
putter offby1: mac (version?)? linux? ...?
cpu?
offby1 putter: Debian linux "Sarge" (aka "Stable"), x86
model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz
if that matters
stevan waves his hands to show the fabulous, mysterious and magical PIL2 ;)
putter :) 16:54
stevan now wanders off to do some $work :(
offby1 squints, but sees not
putter offby1: ok. (x86_64 needs 6.4.1..)
gaal offby1: for the sake of the experiment... how hard would it be for you to try 5.1-5? I haven't been running stable for a while now so I don't remember how likely libs are likely to pull in half the world with them as dependencies 16:55
offby1 gaal: probably not too hard.
I'd uninstall the libreadline5-dev package, and install 5.1-5 from source. 16:56
gaal offby1++
offby1 checks packages.debian.org
szbalint isn't it still down?
offby1 which is dead, per usual :-(
jinx!
szbalint heh 16:57
gaal there may be a newer 5.1 actually, I haven't updated in a... week? :) 16:58
svnbot6 r8940 | putter++ | TASKS +=0.5; It would also be nice if ./pugs -V answered the "usual questions one asks someone with a pugs problem" - what os, cpu, ghc version, gcc version, etc. But some of that could be hard.
putter ralf: note the surrounding discussion of a debian stable x86 "pugs segfaults on startup" issue. 16:59
putter is starting to really like the new TASKS file ;)
gaal putter: a lot of the info in pugs -V is stolen from perl -V
putter right 17:00
time to add a bit of our own perhaps
can one see the -V info from within pugs?
gaal and fixup archname, which on my pugs says something as funny as i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi
?eval %?CONFIG.perl 17:01
17:01 evalbot_8937 is now known as evalbot_8939
evalbot_8939 "\\undef" 17:01
putter gaal: add a TASKS entry.:) hmm, this is starting to sound like a TASKS section! 17:02
gaal oh, it's hidden in safe mode. but it's there.
putter ok. I wonder if that's mentioned in pugsrun.pod
or whatever it's called
gaal ::run 17:03
putter or someplace... where should info like that go?
(I was thinking of lib/pugs/run.pod, but I'm not sure that's the right place... maybe not.) 17:04
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putter ah, it's already in ./docs/quickref/var 17:05
gaal: so, in what way is i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi funny? 17:09
svnbot6 r8941 | gaal++ | Remove warning about embedded parrot as requested by TASKS.
r8941 | gaal++ | Add more information about `pugs -V` TASKS.
gaal putter: it's there because my perl was compiled by debian
but my box is not i486
putter ahhh 17:10
err, but if your box isnt i486 compatible, how are you running it?
gaal of course it's i486 compatible
but my pugs probably isn't
even though my perl is.
putter thinks iX86 is more a comment on what instructions the binary uses, rather the cpu of the platform...
ie, a i486 binary doesnt use any i586-only instructions... 17:11
gaal yeah, but pugs probably does use them.
i686 ones too, even :) 17:12
as for -thread-multi-, these things sound perl5ish too; doesn't multi mean I can have multiple perl5 interpreters in one process? 17:13
putter might mean threads-compatible, ie, `-mthreads' 17:15
Support thread-safe exception handling on `Mingw32'. Code that
relies on thread-safe exception handling must compile and link all
code with the `-mthreads' option. When compiling, `-mthreads'
defines `-D_MT'; when linking, it links in a special thread helper
library `-lmingwthrd' which cleans up per thread exception
handling data.
from gcc info
theorbtwo gaal: You're right on the definition of multi.
putter s/might mean/might also mean/ 17:16
theorbtwo wonders where mulitplicity is supposed to be documented. 17:18
putter though if pugs always uses threads (yes? maybe?), and the gcc standard libraries always supports them, it may not be useful information.
gaal I need to go now, catch y'all later! &
putter &
offby1 OK, installed newer readline library; rebuilding pugs; will let y'all know how it works when it's done (which will probably be an hour or so ...) 17:22
svnbot6 r8942 | putter++ | TASKS: tweak. 17:23
putter offby1: thanks :) 17:27
pasteling "putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "pugs files which match /\bPIL/i (excluding perl5/(PIL2JS|PIL-Run)/)" (115 lines, 3.5K) at sial.org/pbot/15713 17:28
putter stevan: could do a quick summary of what's what with the /pil/ pugs files? 17:29
./ext/Test/lib/Test/PIL is used by ./t/pil/*... 17:37
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putter ./ext/Perl-Compiler/ is currently inactive... 17:39
the docs are relevant...
and the PIL2 src/Pugs files... 17:40
and ./misc/Parser-Mini... 17:42
and the piln examples...
./src/PIL/misc is the beginnings of a prelude to run on top of piln... 17:43
and ./src/PIL/ ... 17:44
and that's it/
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putter lib/pugs/hack.pod, slightly out of date, says 17:46
| |-- Perl-Compiler A Perl 6 port of Pugs 17:47
| |-- PIL PIL2 implementation
hey stevan. just trying to figure out what all the /bPIL/i files are... 17:48
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putter tries make pil unsure what it does... 17:50
stevan putter: src/PIL/Native/* is where everytghing is
putter: make pil will create a pil executable 17:51
which evaluates pil code
piln code to be more precise
stevan wanders off the lunch
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putter ./pil 17:52
### Welcome to PIL2 REPL, the Pugs Again Shell! ###
pugs>
:)
thanks stevan
putter wonders if we have a pil evalbot? ;) 17:53
stevan nope
but I bet you could make one easily
stevan really wanders off to lunch
putter :) 17:54
though there's the whole pesky "is safe" security thing... no?
hmm, pugs> 3 and pugs> say 3 and pugs> say "3" all give errors. 17:55
putter goes to t/ to find stuff which works...
putter wonders if doing this online is not exactly achieving its objective of tempting people to play with piln...? 17:56
drat. it seems unfortunate that trivial Makefile.PL changes force a pugs recompile... 17:58
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putter wonders if Rule is(does?) Method for the sole purpose of participating in inheritance. the minute you have multiple engines, a Rule looks more like a blob of DSL info for multi's, rather than something you would actually ever call. 18:07
might be nice to have an... Inheritable role... "is inheritable"...? So random stuff can participate in class/role inheritance? perhaps a bit evil, but... 18:10
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putter tries to picture how you would do a macro <a=2pi*r**2> () { "L(a,2) = 2*pi*L(r)**2" } so you can { use SymbolicCalculator; use Eqns :circle_stuff; } or { use NumericCalculator; use Eqns :circle_stuff }. One copy of the equation, which depending on context, is used differently. 18:17
the "one copy of the equation" being the objective of the exercise. 18:18
stevan: so, I get almost a complete failure of the t/pil/ tests. a couple of bindings work, and a couple of Class etc are defined. all the rest fail. is this current state, or did I do something wrong? 18:27
18:28 Mister_Ed left
stevan putter: that might be my doing 18:31
i checked in too much when i commited yhe changelog
gaal is there a way to protect whitespace from the <<>> quoter?
stevan resolves to devote some time to pugs this weekend 18:32
gaal I was reminded that it does handle pairs.... <<:animal(moose)>>
but can you do something like <<{"alces alces"} caribou deer elk moose>> ? 18:33
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gaal and back to crazy var declarations: is this legal? my $a = 42, $b = 54; 18:35
I'm still trying to get a sense of var decl and there's so much stuff 18:36
cognominal the comma bind less than the = I think 18:37
I would write it like in Perl5
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gaal my ($a, $b) = (42, 54) I can understand 18:37
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svnbot6 r8943 | putter++ | t/syntax/parsing/numbers.t: added failing tests, :todo<bug>, for adverbial based numbers with invalid digits. Eg, :2<9>. 18:41
putter stevan: ok, thanks. I'll try using an earlier version. 18:42
cognominal gaal I am very surprised that it works in Perl5 too 18:43
perl -e 'use strict; my $a = 42, $b = 54; print qq|"$a""$b"|'
new idiom to me. 18:44
and with -MO=Concise, we indeed see the pad slot creation
why should it be different in Perl6 18:45
putter gaal: looking at S02, <<"alces alces" caribou deer elk moose>> should work. 18:46
(grep for french)
The implicit split is done after interpolation, but respects quotes in a shell-like fashion, so that «'$foo' "@bar[]"» is guaranteed to produce a list of two "words" equivalent to ('$foo', "@bar[]"). 18:47
gaal oh, thanks putter 18:48
oh, weird, cognominal 18:49
:)
putter gaal: re declarations, how about \(my $a = 2), \(my $b = 3); ;)
that is, an expression which returns a list of two refs
gaal GetOptions \our %Cmdline, qw(....) is an idiom I use a lot
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putter ah. I was quite surprised the first time i saw such. had been thinking of my in a very non-expression (statement) kind of way. 18:50
cognominal reads the synopsis in constant time. Each time I read them there is so much adds and changes that it takes as much time 18:51
putter really likes google: site:dev.perl.org mumble mumble ;) 18:52
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offby1 OK, about to try the new shiny pugs-with-newer-readline, to see if it too segfaults immediately 18:53
oh hell, it still seems to be linking with the stock libreadline, despite my having purged the libreadline5-dev package. 18:54
hmph. 18:55
doesn't help.
$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/stow/readline/lib/ ldd pugs 18:56
libreadline.so.5 => /usr/local/stow/readline/lib/libreadline.so.5 (0x40001000)
looks good, right?
$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/stow/readline/lib/ ./pugs => Welcome to Pugs -- Perl6 User's Golfing System
Type :h for help.
Segmentation fault
:-(
gaal putter: you know about \($x, $y) in p5? 18:58
curious feature :)
cognominal I hate it. 18:59
gaal offby1: too bad... maybe the tail of strace has a hint?
xinming gaal: \($a, $y) is the same as [$x, $y] 19:00
gaal xinming: not in p5 :)
cognominal no!
xinming ??
...
gaal xinming: it's (\$x, \$y)
xinming ah... right. I forgot. 19:01
cognominal the \ is distributes amoung the element of the list
s/distributes/distributed/
on the other hand, if what you want to say is [$x, $y ], why using the more convoluted syntax? so that may the rational for giving it another meaning 19:02
s/may/may be/ 19:03
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xinming is confused with perl 6 as he doesn't use perl 5 for a long time. 19:04
putter offby1: :( 19:06
gaal: re \($x,$y), eeep!
offby1: you could try compiling pugs without... oh, you're not compiling pugs are you? 19:07
cognominal unix always fingers this poor Segmentation guy. Wonder why he has never been fired :)
putter lol 19:08
offby1: binary distribution? 19:09
offby1: rafl, the debian... "packager"(?), will be by... at some point. he might have thoughts.
putter backlogs to see what the strace results were... 19:11
ghc 6.4.1 isnt in stable yet? 19:12
gaal: the mac readline issue seems unlikely to arise on linux. the problem was mac had an out-of-date netbsd version (not quite a fork, but significantly modified) of readline. so that's probably not it. 19:20
googling for ghc and gcc 3.3.5, I didn't see any obvious reports of incompatibility. 19:21
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putter hmm... if the debian distribution is binary... is stuff compiled with ghc 6.4.1 backwards compatible with a 6.4 library (assuming one is used... it seems unlikely but possible that a debian binary is statically linked). 19:22
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putter xinming: did you send of a patch with your => to -> change? 19:28
(xinming noticed one of the synopsis was saying => in places where -> seemed clearly intended) 19:29
xinming putter: No, I haven't, I just asked in p6l, 19:30
putter ah, ok. that should take care of it too. tnx :) 19:31
putter again notes that www.nntp.perl.org doesnt do so well with some encodings. eg www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/24611 is a blob of encoding. :/ 19:33
putter goes to look at google's copy...
s/again notes/again notices/ haven't note'ed it before ;) 19:34
but google is out of date. ah well. 19:35
maybe proofreading the synopsis should be added to TASKS as a reoccurring task? 19:36
s/sis/ses/
xinming putter: how to create a patch by the way? :-/
diff S05.pod nS05.pod > patch.txt ?
putter diff -u , but yes. :)
If it's a subdirectory, still run diff in the top pugs directory, so it's easy to apply. diff -u foo/bar foo/bar.new should do it 19:38
you can test it out by running patch < patch.txt or perhaps patch -p1 < patch.txt . 19:39
xinming putter: thanks, 19:40
I'll send the patch
offby1 putter: I am indeed building pugs myself. I'd gladly disable readline support if I knew how to. 19:41
it appears to die immediately after printing the banner: 19:42
write(1, ".", 1) = 1
write(1, "\n", 1) = 1
--- SIGSEGV (Segmentation fault) @ 0 (0) --- 19:43
+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++
putter ah. turned out we didnt add something as simple as an env flag, but you can just edit Makefile.PL: if (has_ghc_package('readline')
and try_compile("import System.Console.Readline\n"
xinming offby1: what os you use?
putter if(0 and has_ghc... should do it.
xinming offby1: I ever in debian testing, and encountered this problem.
putter: Do I copy the content of the patch file to the mail. or I attach a file to send to p6l ? 19:44
putter xinming: debian stable x86.
how did you deal with it? 19:45
xinming offby1: upgrade the ghc to 6.4.1 in debian. apt-get install -t unstable ghc6. these 2 problems will go.
putter xinming: re patch, attach. ;)
xinming++
xinming offby1: hmm, also, please. use testing in debian if the system isn't a server. :-P
putter luqui: re the complexity cost of permitting 6.4.0... ;) 19:47
putter _likes_ stable.
xinming hmm, If you wish to compile ghc 6.4.1 from source. I'd tell you "don't do that", There is a bug in make which comes with debian make the compliation fail.
offby1 xinming: my system _is_ a server, so I don't want to upgrade to testing. 19:48
xinming I tried that, and waste 2 days... (I ever thought How can the compliation progress take so long? over a day. It is still compiling...) 19:49
offby1: hmm, check your make version. if it is `3.81beta4`, then, I think You should also compile make yourself.
offby1 xinming: make --version => GNU Make 3.80 19:50
putter offby1: so it looks like you have two options: edit Makefile.PL to disable readline (simple, but leaves you without it - not a big deal); or get 6.4.1 from testing (but my fuzzy understanding is grabbing things from testing can be problematic/contagious).
xinming offby1: I don't know if this version of make contains the bug I encountered.
19:51 nothingmuch joined
offby1 putter: I'll try disabling readline. Thanks. 19:51
putter luqui: ok, I note that requiring 6.4.1 would have here caused even _more_ problems. ;)
offby1: np 19:52
xinming putter: hmm, I think he'd better install ghc 6.4.1 as in 6.4 , the complied program might be buggy.
putter perhaps, but it's (pugs) not being used in production, there aren't yet reports of such, and, correct me if I'm wrong, mixing debian testing into stable is not something to be done lightly. 19:54
no?
xinming mixing testing with unstable is much a better choice than stable + testing. :-) 19:55
offby1 not by me, anyway
putter (well, the readline would be such a report... how about any _other_ reports;)
stevan: the r8912 did modify a bunch of src/PIL/ files 19:58
should they be reverted?
stevan putter: yeah I have a copy and so will the VCS 19:59
putter k
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svnbot6 r8944 | putter++ | src/PIL/Native/Bootstrap: revert various files unintentionally modified by r8912. 20:14
gaal "omniscient debugger" google tech talk: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=38...+techtalks 20:17
nothingmuch omniscient debugging is cool 20:18
offby1 sounds like domestic surveillance.
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putter hmm, can't watch the video just now. but debuggers that can slide around in time have been around for a long time... the simplest approach being schemes which roll forward to the t of interest, using checkpoints to avoid having to keep going back to the beginning of the program. 20:23
wonder if nifty new stuff has been added? or maybe just "the tools we're using still suck compared to what we know how to do". 20:24
:/ 20:25
offby1 :\ 20:26
that makes a "K".
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offby1 hooray -- disabling readline (by nixing the relevant stuff in Makefile.PL) fixed my problem on Debian. 20:31
now I wonder if I can get the functionality back, without provoking the bug, by just using "rlwrap" ... :-) 20:32
hee hee! rlwrap works fine. 20:34
putter *laugh*
offby1 strange but true.
thanks folks.
20:34 offby1 left
putter stevan: the reversion fixed all the tests but those in t/pil/container/ which entirely failed. expected? 20:36
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gaal putter, what does the tweak in r8942 mean? %?CONFIG has whatever -V does, it's just not available in safe mode hence for evalbot 20:43
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gaal -V is basically $_.perl.say for %?CONFIG, @*INC 20:44
putter I just wanted to mention it's existence.
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gaal okies 20:45
putter one of the ideas for TASKS is for people who have the "big picture" to brain dump that which is needed for someone without it to solve the problem. the existence of %?CONFIG seemed like such a thing to mention
gaal yes, good idea. I wish I could have a chat with someone with a big picture re: ver decl 20:46
*var decl
but for now I must afk! see you. 20:47
putter bye & :)
SamB wonders why he is now considered an admin
putter yeah, right now our only "request for clarification" mechanism is p6l posts... I wonder what else might be done...? 20:48
gaal putter: get larry and audreyt together in the same room as oneself for a week, as in fact is going to happen in three weeks :-) 20:49
putter SamB: because everyone who contributes is a committer, and everyone who.... becomes an admin?
gaal *ppf*
SamB but... but... I didn't do anything!
putter gaal: that sound like great fun :)
lol
then it logically follows that mere existence is sufficient... ;) 20:50
SamB well, I mean, I did get commit access somehow
I don't remember doing anything useful 20:51
I think I broke building on non-GHCi platforms
integral well now you can recruit someone to unbreak it ;-) 20:52
putter My fuzzy impression is the idea behind spreading around the admin bit is so there is always someone here who can add new committers.
SamB it was fixed months ago
Shillo Hmm, one question, about specs. S06 mentions tokens, which should be a special kind of rules. Where are they described? 20:53
Don't remember seeing them on A05 or S05.
stevan putter: yes, the container tests should still fail 20:54
Shillo Hmm, also, does anyone else get insta-crash running PUGS interactively? I suspect readline. 20:56
putter Shillo: re tokens, I don't know. perhaps 20:57
they are related to the as yet undocumented(?) top-down/operator-precedence/top-down parser sandwitch ... but it may also jut be historical artifact? 20:59
re insta-crash, bet you have ghc 6.4.0 not 6.4.1, yes?
that if you're running linux. on mac, readline. 21:00
Shillo facepalms.
putter facepalms?
Shillo And I -did- read that change.
Yeah. As in, cover my face with the palms of my hands. 21:01
putter is confued... and my s-key is intermittant...
ah. which change?
putter rediscovers "is parsed" in S06... decides he really really wants it... ;) 21:03
Shillo 6.4 -> 6.4.1 required 21:04
Although, pugs works for me just fine if I just run scripts.
putter actually, while that was talked about, 6.4.1 is only required on x86_64, and, well, strongly encouraged on mac osx 10.4. the debian dependency on 6.4.1 was not expected. 21:05
Shillo I think it's readline, then.
pugs itself does work.
putter what platform? mac? linux? 21:06
theorbtwo SamB: email address?
putter Multivac: can entropy be reversed?
theorbtwo wonders if he can figure out again how to give people committer bits.
(WHile drunk.)
SamB theorbtwo: you want to know my email address?
Shillo putter: Ubuntu 21:07
theorbtwo I want to give you a comitter bit.
SamB theorbtwo: oh, what happened to my old one? 21:08
theorbtwo i thought you just said you didn't get one...
nevermind.
putter theorbtwo: SamB was just saying he unexpectedly got an admin bit... o I assume he ha (d*mn s) a commit bit
21:09 lightstep left
putter Shillo: ah. right. that is readline related too. yes, the options are upgrade to 6.4.1 or fiddle with Makefile.PL to build without readline support (and then you can rlwrap to get it back) 21:10
Shillo putter: Hmm. :)
I'm fine with running noninteractive for now, actually.
I kinda want SLIME for p6.
putter there may be other options... there's only been one case so far... 21:11
or two
SLIME for p6 ++
Shillo grins! 21:14
putter I started to look into being a slime backend... common-lisp.net/project/slime/ ... swank... But I guess I got distracted. Next step would be to grab the source and see if the protocol is something we can easily handle.
Shillo And in-language support. SWANK introspects everything. 21:15
Like Intellisense on steroids.
Protocol is just a socket. 21:16
Probably textual, beneath that.
Odin- Hey, once that gets working, how about integrating Perl6 into emacs? :p 21:17
theorbtwo A while back I looked at smart syntax hilighting, but didn't get terribly far.
putter goes looking for ghc debugger... we may be too "compiled" to make this easy until there is more of a pure p6 implementation...
Odin- (After that, I think the only remaining thing would be to turn emacs into a Mozilla-y thingamajig. Whoo, all the big swiss army knives rolled into one.) 21:18
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putter theorbtwo: the sticking point was... not enough position annotations? 21:18
Shillo Hehe. Well, I suspect something specs enough introspections for things to work.
theorbtwo Even at the Parse-YAML level, we don't have enough position information, or possibly enough syntax left, for it to be very um, um, informative.
putter: That, and 90% of them were just "app".
putter ah 21:19
ingy hola
theorbtwo I'll put my code somewhere if you want it.
Odin- ingy: You know, that translates into "a hole" in Icelandic.
putter Odin-: :)
theorbtwo It's kind of in a half-done state, where it extrats information, but doesn't actually do anything with it. 21:20
putter theorbtwo: instead of using the pug parser, I wonder if pge is far enough along that one could start using a grammar for p6 to grovel over the file... no, I guess that's a bad idea. need a more informative parser then... 21:22
Shillo Does parrot support shared substrings?
putter hi ingy
Shillo If yes, you get position info for free from the rules matches, you only need to add methods to substrings to tell you what they're pointing to.
ingy hi putter 21:23
theorbtwo The problem with using the rules engine for this is that pugs doesn't use the rules engine, so you can get into situations where what your hilighter says is going on doesn't match reality, and avoiding that was the whole point.
Shillo theorbtwo: Isn't that a self-solving problem, since it will have to use rules eventually? 21:24
putter Shillo: the gotcha with just using rules to grovel over p6 source is that p6 is too much a live thing. not so much now, because macros and such are barely implemented, but increasingly. you basically cant parse p6 without a live p6 system. 21:25
Shillo Hmm. 21:26
theorbtwo Well, rules should be a live perl6 system, when done.
In the meantime, however...
putter theorbtwo: though one idea would be to start using rules (putting together a p6 grammar is a worthwhile goal in and of itself), which gives you position info, which you can pretend came from the parser. which lets you get the rest of the system up. then when the parser provides more info, you can just switch over..? 21:27
theorbtwo Or when your grammar is good enough, pugs can switch over.
putter ;)
Shillo The main problem, actually, are string-returning macros. AST-returning macros would be nice and neat. 21:28
xinming In fact, every time you face this excited idea of perl 6. You'll be surprised..
putter one of the questions I want to ask audreyt is what her vision for the mix of haskell and p6 is. ie, should we be adding statement-control:<while> or however that's specced, and yanking it from Parser.hs? or not? 21:29
Limbic_Region /quit tiuq\
putter theorbtwo: actually, you could argue you want _both_ sources of info - heuristic patterns and the parser tree. because you still want to highlite etc code even when it's broken, when the parser will be of little help. 21:31
have you thought about how say emacs(?) and this analyzer interact? 21:33
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putter if i did slurp ~~ /^(sub|class|package)\s+(\w+)/ how much more would I need to do basic syntax coloring? 21:34
Shillo slurp can be overloaded. So can ~~. /.../ can be redefined (right?) 21:35
sub prefix:slurp ...; :) 21:36
putter I'm just wondering if one can usefully get started immediately, with a relatively small analyzer, get it plugged into emacs or whatever, and start gaining experience. 21:37
Shillo Er, yeah. Now I reread what you said and figured I misunderstood. 21:38
putter www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp-ma...-Lock-Mode 21:41
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putter bbiab 21:46
Shillo Laters, all.
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rafl putter: You rang the bell? 22:43
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putter hey rafl 22:55
just to note that some debian stable folks running 6.4 were getting segfaults on pugs startup. 22:56
rafl putter: Which pugs?
putter works if readline support is disabled by munging Makefile.PL
rafl putter: And I don't even provide packages for debian stable.
putter backlogs... 22:57
ok, it looks like compiling pugs on debian stable or testing with 6.4 causes the described behavior. 22:58
which I guess is not your problem ;) 22:59
any suggestions in case it comes up again?
on non-stable, one can upgrade ghc. on stable, one can edit the Makefile.PL. any other options come to mind? 23:00
nothingmuch rafl: how's the smoke server coming along?
rafl nothingmuch: I waited on YAML 0.5 a while. Now that it is out I could continue, but it's exam time.
nothingmuch: I'll continue work in 1.5 - 2 weeks. 23:01
putter rafl: anyway, that was the ping. problem+debian=>consult-ralf
arg
rafl
thanks 23:02
rafl putter: Who had the problem?
szbalint offby1
nothingmuch rafl: =) 23:03
rafl Ah. I think he should contact me so I can get some additional info. 23:04
putter offby1 colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/...sel=31#l70 down thru 20:34. 23:05
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putter he had the stable. xinming reported (briefly) the same problem on testing. 23:06
offby1: if you ever see this, ping rafl 23:07
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svnbot6 r8945 | putter++ | misc/IDE-support: a silly little demo of emacs calling a p6 program which then highlights the emacs buffer from which it was called. The idea is to have a p6 server which provides source code analysis and refactoring services to editors and IDEs. 23:41
putter theorbtwo: here's a toy. if you're interested in pursuing it, let's talk. 23:44
or if anyone else is ;)

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