pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | <stevan> Moose... it's the new Camel ":P | .pmc == PPI source filters!
Set by Alias_ on 16 March 2006.
00:05 weinig_ joined
TimToady which one wasn't funny, the one with someone pretending to be me, or the one with me pretending to be somebody, or the one where I'm not sure what I'm pretending? 00:21
00:21 drbean joined 00:23 Quell joined
TimToady audreyt: earlier we specified that :arg<1> and :arg<2> should prefer the first to the second, on the theory that defaults always go later in the list (esp %args). I still think we should maybe provide an ordered list of nameds so we can map unix command line. 00:23
So I think maybe nameds should come in as a list and merely be memoized as a hash, or something. 00:25
I'm also regretting making "multi" default to "multi method" inside classes. I think we should be encouraging people to write multi subs most of the time, plus I think having to remember the context is a --. 00:26
00:26 drbean joined
theorbtwo Blink. I only caught two of those three. 00:29
(s/\$/€/, and Bugs.) 00:30
TimToady to2: you're missing 'without ASCII keyboards' 00:33
00:34 mako132_ joined
theorbtwo Did you notice the PM one? 00:38
TimToady In other words, named args should do both list and hash roles, and compiler can optimize to real hash with list emul on no dups, otherwise list rep with hash emul, but the user doesn't care.
which PM one, the mutually assured destruction, or Weird Al playing Larry Wall? 00:40
theorbtwo I assume you caught the second one, since you star in it. I don't know what you mean by the first one... is there one I missed? 00:41
I meant the gender-bending.
TimToady Yeah, I noticed it, but wrote it off a thinko. April fools on me. 00:42
The catalyst vs jifty MAD. 00:43
theorbtwo Yeah, it's a bit on the subtle side. 00:45
00:45 nnunley joined
TimToady audreyt: "see above" ~~ s/the user/the hash user/, since the list user cares. 00:45
theorbtwo Except in the CB, words would change gender. Sadly, I forgot about the CB's caching. 00:46
TimToady Except I could have sworn it called Audrey a "her", which would be, er, correct, which is to say, incorrect. 00:47
Or was it doing it randomly?
00:51 drbean joined
TimToady Ah, no, it was Sharon Hopkins. I get the women in my life mixed up. :) 00:51
Except for Glo. She never mixes up that way. 00:52
I think the MAD joke would have gone over better if people actually 00:54
followed links...
00:55 drbean joined
lichtkind hello perl 6 people i started in our perl forum some perl 6 discussion and it turn out that some people are worried about the new assignment operator := can you still make references the old way? 01:05
TimToady audreyt: or maybe more like Match objects autogenerate arrays on multiplicity, multiple args of the same name could generate a list that we usually only take the first value off of. That is, arrays whose scalar value is the first element.
lichtkind: it will still work very much like a Perl 5 programmer would expect. It's just the internal representation of \$x that is unified with \($x, $y, $z) which is an argument list. 01:06
but you can still say $y = \$x to get a level of indirection that you undo with $$y. 01:07
lichtkind thanks but im not native speaker i dont understood last part of your first answer 01:08
what means unified with \($x, $y, $z)
TimToady It means that \$x is really just an argument list with one argument, but it behaves like a reference. 01:09
theorbtwo lichtkind: To just answer your questions: yes, you can make a reference like in perl 5. 01:10
TimToady It's just that in Perl 6 it is a smarter mechanism underneath. 01:12
so you can make references of things you can't make references of in Perl 5.
lichtkind sounds cool
TimToady like a set of arguments to a function, without actually calling the function.
lichtkind but filehandles are now objects anyway
TimToady we hope so. 01:13
yes, filehandles are objects now.
lichtkind the second thing i long time ago wanted ask in an perl channel is: the wikipedia perl article is pretty a mess would some native speaker help me to trnslate the german into english, i spent several month to make this perl article real good and structured 01:15
TimToady audreyt: so if bound to a scalar, you get first :arg<1>, but if bound to a list, you get all *arg params.
Ich spreche kein Deutsch...er... 01:16
Juerd lichtkind: I'm neither native English nor native German, but I could help you if you want.
lichtkind ahhh juerd we know each other from bochum
Juerd spricht auch kein Deutsch, aber kann es wohl lesen.
lichtkind: Wirklich?
lichtkind: Who are you then? :)
lichtkind yes darling we slept together :)
Juerd lichtkind: I'm quite sure that even in German that's dubious. 01:17
lichtkind: Who are you? :)
lichtkind the editor guy
Juerd Editor, as in pce?
lichtkind yes thats my pet
Juerd Ah, then I know who you are. Hi :)
lichtkind german is my native tongue but english is sometimes troublesome for me 01:18
Juerd So I've experienced
lichtkind pce its about to be renamed
TimToady English is my native tongue and I have trouble with it.
Juerd English isn't my native tongue, and I absolutely hate the languge 01:19
language
But alas, it's the current latin french language.
lichtkind its only that i can get help to be shure its a good english
Juerd I see 01:20
lichtkind but now i have other wiki tasks to solve in our board wiki
im writing some perl 6 quick reference to get some of our people interested
but after that ...
Juerd we share pretty the same view on perl 6 01:21
Juerd lichtkind: Really, are you also confronted with a mixture of extreme fear and bizarre enthousiastic anticipation? 01:22
theorbtwo Wow, I like that term.
"enthousiastic anticipation", that is.
lichtkind im too religious to have much but fear but yes i see the possibility of gigantic failure 01:23
that scares me too
im positive because i believe that the design principles of perl come close to the fundamental rules of life 01:24
and when that failes that is signal that people are in bad shape
or bad people drive perl 6 :) 01:25
Juerd theorbtwo: % spelling
lichtkind juerd do you can understand me? 01:26
TimToady but my theology says everyone is born bad anyway, so we try to take that into account. :)
lichtkind but basicly i use perl because i feels good 01:27
thatswhy i love it
it simple dont have to fail
:)
TimToady I think even if Perl 6 fails it will still feel good to use. 01:28
In that sense, Perl 5 is already an example of a good failure.
theorbtwo I wouldn't expect perl 5 and 6 to fail in the same ways. 01:29
TimToady Maybe it will feel better, and also fail better. :)
As in "Q: How's you're cold doing? A: It's doing fine." 01:30
Juerd lichtkind: Partly. 01:31
I should go to bed 01:32
lichtkind me too
theorbtwo should as well, and it's an hour later were Juerd is.
Juerd (3:32 am)
Good night or localtime of your preference, everyone.
zzZ
lichtkind i liked the moment juerd said please believe in perl 6 tight with the right atitude
Juerd Perl 6 tight? :)
We still call it strict. 01:33
Anyway, afk
lichtkind i ment right
ok good night
here is 3:33 too
but is it really the case that religious sounding program names scares people away? 01:38
02:10 rashakil joined 03:34 mako132_ joined 03:46 ayrnieu joined 03:52 mako132_ joined 03:57 miyagawa joined 03:58 miyagawa joined 04:10 coumbes joined
audreyt TimToady: if we retain the coerce:<as> grammatical category, we can allow 04:33
sub ($x as Dog) { ... }
sub foo returns Dog ( $x_to_be_casted )
err
sub foo returns Dog { $x_to_be_casted }
or
sub foo as Dog { $x_to_be_casted }
as well as
($x as Dog).bark
and move "but" and "does" into that category 04:35
(but for now I'm going with infix:<as>) 04:43
as previously discussed in Mt.Arbel
04:47 locksy joined
audreyt gaal: you get what you want. :) see r8535 synopses 05:18
arcady any chance of getting Pugs.AST.Internals to compile faster? that one file is like half the total build time... 05:25
gaal audreyt: whee :) 05:30
I gotta say it's still weird how Perl has sigils everywhere except arguments 05:31
is this valid? sub foo ($bar, @bar)
svnbot6 r9815 | audreyt++ | * earendil_translations: mark the version numbers
r9816 | audreyt++ | * I've got a new email address, [email@hidden.address]
gaal you golfed your email address! 05:32
audreyt right!
arcady: yes :)
gaal: they are sugar for 05:33
gaal remembers guiltily the CompUnit data type he'd added but not put to use
audreyt :bar($bar) :bar(@bar)
which ought to be an error, or just take the @bar side 05:34
I'm in favour of an error.
gaal audreyt: what does :bar<42> do then?
arcady audreyt: yes as in it takes forever to compile, or yes as in it will be fixed? : )
gaal ah
audreyt arcady: to both
gaal okay, worse: sub foo ($bar?, @bar?) 05:35
audreyt gaal: because all positionals are implicitly bindable with name 05:36
(if they have a name)
(otherwise it's gensym'ed or something)
I don't think it's possible to reuse names for them
getopt spec doesn't let you do that either, right? 05:37
gaal it doesn't
but that isn't typed anyway.
it's kind of a letdown to pretend sigils create totally different namespaces for variables everywhere in the language and then have a place where you can't have $bar and @bar. 05:38
audreyt sub foo ( @bar( [$bar, *@] ) ) { ... } 05:40
a_bar@(s_bar:_)
that is legal
because you can't touch s_bar by hand
s/hand/name/
gaal can't touch it? 05:41
audreyt foo(bar=>1)
always goes into @bar not $bar
because $bar is unside an unpacker
(then $bar gets bound to the first element of @bar) 05:42
gaal ah, from the caller side. I see
[OT] when does summer time kick in in the states? 05:43
audreyt today?
Steve_p gaal, it depends. 05:44
gaal one of my clocks isn't adjusted and I realized I was getting late for work :/
see you later I guess! &
Steve_p Oh...summer time...as in daylight savings...tonight :) 05:45
arcady it's actually daylight saving... and there will be no 2 am tonight 05:59
06:06 nothingmuch joined
audreyt hi nothingmuch. like my apr1st batch of commits? :) 06:07
06:08 kisu joined
nothingmuch i've seen them and gone over the diffs only slightly 06:08
is it just 'as'?
are they a joke?
audreyt no. 06:09
nothingmuch reads more carefully
btw, did you ever have any feature requests for the smoke server?
audreyt if I had I don't remember at this moment 06:10
nothingmuch i feel like nobody cares enough to comment, and since I don't use it myself I have nothing to incorperate except the parrotfolk's suggestions
okies
audreyt deploy it to smoke.pugscode.org?
nothingmuch smoke.woobling.org for now
audreyt k
nothingmuch it's not 100% finished
i'm switching to dojo from mochikit
and going to enable tag editing 06:11
and finish the client a bit
and add notes
so people can tell why X is failing or whatever
and add a notion of "default" groupings
and add session support so that people can have their groupings stick
and add tag intersection
phew
audreyt I like the cloud :) 06:14
nothingmuch i think this view is the most useful: smoke.woobling.org/list?tag=&gr...le+version 06:15
audreyt aye 06:16
nothingmuch i just nominated the Pugs team for the white camel 06:20
both on technical merit, and the community thing 06:21
audreyt++
pugs got me my job
it made me come to conferences
it made me learn haskell
this is a boring story since almost everyone here has it =)
audreyt heh :) 06:23
audreyt naps a bit more... bbiab
avar nothingmuch: tell me more;)
audreyt nothingmuch++ # provided significant fun to -O 06:24
nothingmuch avar: well... my future employer knows me from pugs 06:26
he trusts my code and my brain due to my work on it
and because I met him at a conf and made a good impression
avar mm
nothingmuch my CV also looks impressive because of pugsx
avar I got a job basically from a free software project too;)
It's a great proving ground 06:27
nothingmuch aye
avar aye
nothingmuch which project was that?
avar MediaWiki
06:28 iblechbot joined
nothingmuch avar: what kind of job? 06:28
progging for a company that is involved with wiki technology? 06:29
or php?
avar Neither, they just saw that I could do stuff and I could do it well enough that my code (not everything of course) manages to run on a top-20 website;)
nothingmuch =)
avar Perl programming mostly (this week) 06:30
It's a Perl / C division;)
nothingmuch i think "this week" should apply to my next job
it applies in a kinda cruddy way to my current job
avar I don't have a job title;)
nothingmuch in that people abuse me to do the weird stuff
(this week i'm reverse engineering Oracle SQLNet)
avar I do systems management and monitoring, hard user support questions (not questions whos answer is "turn on the computer"), programming, .... 06:31
nothingmuch (the few "this weeks" prior to that I did thread heavy C++, and learned C++)
sounds like fun, except the sysop part (/me doesn't get along with that ;-)
avar well that's kind of inevitable
my code has to run on systems, sometimes it goes wrong, sometimes I have to set up a test system etc. 06:32
I'm not the sysadmin;)
nothingmuch thought this april fools was pretty good 06:33
catalyst/jifty
improveverywhere
i was going to tell my friend my NY gig was canceled
but then forgot
ayrnieu for April Fools, EFF put out in their newsletter that they had a new deal with the NSA, where when you sign up as an EFF member you can get NSA database information about up to ten friends. 06:38
avar nothingmuch: where are you going to be working? 06:39
06:40 gaal_ joined
nothingmuch avar: for stevan 06:41
ayrnieu: heh =)
06:48 gaal_ is now known as gaal 07:05 tomyan joined 07:16 ghenry joined 07:38 Khisanth joined 08:04 lumi joined 08:05 nnunley joined 08:14 azuroth joined 09:00 chris2 joined 09:09 tomyan left 09:18 kisu joined 09:26 elmex_ joined 09:38 KingDiamond joined 09:54 xinming joined 10:06 iblechbot joined 10:31 pmurias joined
pmurias hi all 10:31
nothingmuch hi ho! 10:32
pmurias nothingmuch: are you familiar with pcr's internals? 10:34
nothingmuch no, not at all =( 10:35
ENOTUITS
pmurias what are tuits, wikipedia shows nothing on them 10:42
?
nothingmuch err, sorry
when you get arount to it
when you get a round tuit
when you are going to do something 10:43
and someone really wants you to do it
then they can give you a round tuit
and then you have to do it because you promised
when you aren't getting enough tuits you say ENOTUITS
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_tuit
TreyHarris en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_tuit 10:44
heh 10:45
you beat me
nothingmuch boows 10:46
all ninja like
10:54 siosiosios joined
nothingmuch will perl 6 have a web2.0 best of breed ponie? 10:56
files.turbogears.org/video/BestOfBreed.mov
pmurias nothingmuch: what keeps you from looking at pcr time or documentation constrains, i could try to fix the second ones 10:57
nothingmuch time
pmurias Cannot find codec for audio format 0x6134706D :( 11:00
nothingmuch err 11:01
ouch
11:16 GeJ joined
pmurias why is svnbot down? 11:33
svnbot6 r9817 | pmurias++ | rule_wrapper(...) and other evil vodoo is not hardcoded anymore
r9817 | pmurias++ | a rule {...} function is generated instead
pmurias pmurias: sorry, it proved me wrong itself
11:34 autarch joined
pmurias i talk to myself again :( 11:34
autarch audreyt: are you there?
11:41 ko1_away is now known as ko1_ 11:47 oeon_ joined 11:48 gantrixx joined
gantrixx recently I saw an email from [email@hidden.address] stating that he wants to replace the $ sigil with the Euro sign in Perl6. Is this a joke? An email spoof? 11:49
Dazhbog the send date doesn't happen to be 1st of April .. no? 11:52
gantrixx ....yes, it does.....I'm retarded 11:53
thank goodness
Dazhbog hehe
sometimes happens to everyone I guess 11:54
11:54 r0nny joined 12:18 coumbes joined 12:49 KingDiamond joined
gantrixx could someone help me out and try to dcc chat with me? I'm using the gnome-xchat client and I don't know how to accept a dcc chat 12:59
anyone? 13:01
pmurias ?
gantirixx: i'll try
gantrixx thanks 13:02
pmurias gantrixx: i'm not sure if epic supports dcc
you'll have to wait while ircII compiles 13:04
13:07 pmdcc joined
pmurias gantrixx: got ircii what should i do? 13:08
gantrixx pmurias: thanks, I'm debugging this with joyr 13:09
13:10 colares joined
pmdcc gantrixx: so i can exit ircii then 13:11
?
gantrixx yes
13:11 iblechbot joined
gantrixx thanks 13:11
13:33 xinming joined
svnbot6 r9818 | pmurias++ | lrep: the first test for rule {...} 13:46
14:03 xinming joined 14:40 xinming joined 14:49 chris2 joined
svnbot6 r9819 | pmurias++ | lrep:a couple more test,dumps match objects when $ENV{DEBUD_lrep} is true 15:22
15:41 vel joined 15:55 justatheory joined 15:57 nothingmuch joined 16:32 ko1_ is now known as ko1_away 16:54 clkao joined 16:56 sean joined 17:20 gantrixx joined 17:23 clkao_ joined 18:19 ko1_away is now known as ko1_ 18:29 ko1_ is now known as ko1_away 18:52 Limbic_Region joined 19:06 clkao_ is now known as clkao 19:07 nothing_pasta joined
nothing_pasta hi people 19:08
FYI: my laptop died
even fewer TUITs i guess 19:09
hope it comes back, and see you till then
Limbic_Region doesn't think he has ever prayed for an inanimate object before but will make this a first 19:10
nothing_pasta thanks =) 19:12
it's surely inanimate right now ;-)
i doubt it'll help though, i'm sure it's a curse
the last time something happenned was when I was working on the Catalyst screen casts 19:13
i stopped because i had to recover my disk
today i started working on the script again
and BLAM
it died
Juerd nothing_pasta: What died?
19:13 Barry joined
Juerd nothing_pasta: Just the disk, or more? 19:13
nothing_pasta Juerd: the logic board prolly 19:14
it's not booting
one sec
discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...dID=303235 19:15
i posted to the bottom
i hope they give me a shiny new one ;-)
Juerd Oh, hurray. Applebreakage
nothing_pasta aye =( 19:16
Juerd reads way too much about [i|Power]Books breaking to even consider getting one.
They have the best sleep/resume functionality of all laptops, but there ends the fun
nothing_pasta i actually had very good experiences up till now 19:17
the last time it was a software problem
and that was resolved without icky reformats and what not
and my previous laptop tokk on hell of a beating before dying
and my mother's ibook is still alive
despite the crashed disk
back in the day she would use it for 6 hours
then I would use it for 10
now my aunt uses it 19:18
Juerd Sure, everyone's experience is different
19:18 Barry left
Juerd But I do still believe thinkpads are the best. 19:18
I don't have *some* experience with them, but lots.
Lenovo is doing good things, that make me trust them as much as I trusted IBM with the series. 19:19
They changed a few things in the designs that I don't like, but can understand. 19:20
nothing_pasta: Did you make backups? 19:21
nothing_pasta Juerd: anything important is in revision control 19:25
except one big bang thing that's in my working dir
and that I should have made a branch for 19:26
and would have made a branch for if i was using darcs =)
all my music (very important) is burned to DVDs
except some stuff from emusic
that I can download again
my prefs and stuff are all throwaway
anything valuable is on pasta
19:27 tri joined
nothing_pasta and I suspect that the disk is OK 19:27
19:29 ezraburgh joined
nothing_pasta anyway, i'm off 19:30
see you
thanks for the support, Limbic_Region, Juerd
svnbot6 r9820 | fglock++ | PCR - added '$'; added 'grammar.pl' - an extensible p6 grammar 19:39
19:41 justatheory joined 19:43 fglock joined
fglock I'm confused with operators x methods - is there a single precedence table for all multimethods in all classes? 19:55
pmurias hi fglock 19:57
fglock pmurias: hi! 19:58
pmurias: I'm starting to rewrite lrep...
pmurias the lrep-compiler or the legacy one? 19:59
fglock It will be Pugs::Compiler::Perl6 if it works
the prototype if PCR/grammar.pl 20:00
pmurias seen the commit now
fglock s/if/is/
pmurias have you seen my commit, could you check if &rule is defined right 20:01
?
fglock I need to find out about precedence of methods - like Int.infix:<+> and infix:<+> - are these the same?
pmurias: which file? 20:02
pmurias lrep-compiler/Runtime/RuleCompiler.pm 20:04
20:06 larsen_ joined
fglock pmurias: you are using some undocumented subs - it may break (or not) if PCR changes 20:08
pmurias fglock: it was broken from the start i mearly refactored it, basicly it only works for simple cases (see the test) and brakes for Grammar/Perl6.pm 20:11
i would be gratefull if you showed me what the proper(offical) way to do it is
fglock looking 20:13
20:16 ezraburgh joined
fglock the basic API is: my $rule = Pugs::Compiler::Rule->compile( 'a' ); my $match = $rule->match( $str ); 20:17
20:17 lisppaste3 joined, ezraburgh left, ezraburgh joined
fglock or: *rule = Pugs::Compiler::Rule->compile( 'a' )->code; my $match = main->rule( $str ); 20:18
20:18 lisppaste3 joined
fglock $rule->perl5 returns the p5 source code for the object 20:18
PCR t/04-rule.t covers the most common use cases 20:20
pmurias thanks, i'll abandon ruoso's precompiling scheme for now and see if it works using the official api 20:22
fglock you can precompile using the perl5 method
my $src = Pugs::Compiler::Rule->compile( 'a' )->perl5; $rule = eval $src; 20:23
*rule = ( eval $src )->code; # untested 20:24
*rule = $rule->code; 20:28
20:31 ghenry joined 20:32 SamB joined
svnbot6 r9821 | pmurias++ | the version without the precompile 20:32
pmurias fglock: if I use the offical api the same bug strikes again
fglock how can I test it? 20:33
20:34 Dazhbog left
pmurias just run lrep -i test-file -o out 20:35
substitute test-file by any p6 from t/,the resault is the same error 20:36
fglock installing Perl6::Slurp ... 20:38
20:47 hlen joined 20:49 justatheory joined
fglock pmurias: I get "Can't use string ("0") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at .../site/lib/Pugs/Compiler/Rule.pm line 56, <GEN0> line 1." - this means $rule->match is being called with extra parameters 20:52
20:56 ezraburgh joined 20:57 justatheory joined
pmurias figured it out during painfull debugging, 0's can't autovindicate, but where does the extra parameter come from? 20:58
fglock:after reading S1{2,3} i don't think Int.<+> is allowed, <+> is propably sub dispatched 21:05
fglock a caller() just before the error says: Grammar/Perl6.pm 2518 21:10
I mean: 1+1 vs 1.0+1.0 - do they always have the same precedence? 21:11
pmurias it would be horribly inconsistent if they didn't 21:13
21:13 FurnaceBoy joined
pmurias i need to go to sleep now, so i'll check the S** tommorow 21:14
pmurias always backlogs by the way, so feel free to ask me while i'm sleeping 21:15
good night
21:18 weinig_ is now known as weinig 21:21 vel joined
svnbot6 r9822 | fglock++ | PCR - added a category to grammar.pl 21:21
21:22 tri left 21:27 amnesiac joined 21:32 _bernhard joined 21:39 coumbes joined 21:43 ayrnieu joined 22:03 premshree_ joined 22:04 the_ez joined 22:07 ruz joined 22:18 clkao joined 22:40 clkao joined 22:52 mako132_ joined
svnbot6 r9823 | fglock++ | PCR - grammar.pl generates AST; t/07-category tests temporarily disabled 23:36
23:37 premshree_ is now known as KingDiamond 23:43 pdcawley_ joined

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!