svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by lumi on 8 November 2006.
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svnbot6 r14728 | cmarcelo++ | * Sketching a more general mkBoxMethod solution in MO/si.hs. 05:15
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svnbot6 r14729 | kudra++ | This week's summary 08:29
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ludan hi 12:04
nothingmuch www.treehugger.com/files/2006/11/tr...lights.php 12:12
lambdabot tinyurl.com/yy3plt
nothingmuch wiki-style driving? ;-)
Juerd_ Bleh. That picture doesn't show Dutch traffic lights. 12:14
And I've never heard of any place called Drachen :) 12:17
Perhaps they meant Drachten.
But then, I can't imagine they'd do this in Drachten :)
(Population 45k, so that sort of matches the article) 12:18
(We don't call that a small city though :P)
dmq ive heard about that program 12:19
its supposed to be quite successful.
apparently its resulted in quite a reduction in serious automobile/pedestrian accidents. 12:20
And it is Drachten. 12:21
Juerd_ Interesting
I'm going to Drachten to see family soon, I'll pay attention. 12:22
Can't find *anything* about this program with Google, though.
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Juerd_ Not in Google News, not in normal Google 12:22
Not in Wikipedia
dmq en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
You didnt look very hard.
I did in a few seconds. :-)
do a search for Drachten Traffic Calming 12:23
or Drachten Traffic reduction
Juerd_ I was looking specifically for Dutch pages. 12:24
Keywords "drachten" and "verkeerslichten" ("traffic lights")
dmq heh. stands to reason. things like this are always better publicized outside of the country where it happens. :-)
Well, Drachten and that engineer Hans Monderman are fairly well known in the "reclaim the streets" communities. 12:25
Juerd_ By the way, replacing intersections with roundabouts is common in the whole of .nl
dmq Ive seen him mentioned a number of times.
wolverian they're doing the roundabout thing here too. supposedly has better throughput.
dmq Yes, its cheaper with better throughput.
wolverian (and cheaper to maintain.)
right. 12:26
Juerd_ www.smallingerland.nl/index.cfm?sid=175 # The images of the Laweiplein are typical, and not very Drachten-specific :)
lambdabot Title: English / Traffic solutions, tinyurl.com/yaft5k
Juerd_ dmq: It only has better throughput up to a certain amount of traffic.
After that, traffic lights become better again
But I don't think you'd have those intensities in Drachten :)
We have this huge roundabout in a motorway. (Well, because it's a roundabout, that part isn't officially part of the motorway). That *doesn't* work. 12:27
dmq i cant comment on that part. as a cyclist im not so fond of roudabouts.
Juerd_ Why not?
On most Dutch roundabouts, cyclists get precedence.
dmq compared to signaled junctions they are much less safe.
yes, in holland im sure they do. in england however... 12:28
my god.
some of those roudabouts scared the willies out of me.
Juerd_ Do they have coloured bicycle lanes?
dmq Old street roundabout in particular.
hmm, i guess sometimes.
but the problem is that even with a bicycle lane you have to pass a lot of access points where visibility is an issue. 12:29
people turning and looking over their shoulder dont see you in the corner of their eye.
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Juerd_ Oh. That's nasty. 12:29
dmq whereas with a signaled junction you go IN FRONT of the cars and let them wait. It might annoy them, but its MUCH safer.
Juerd_ The thing that scared me most, repeatedly, when I was in the UK as a pedestrian, was that people keep driving on the wrong side :) 12:30
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dmq yeah, in the cities they have notices on the pavement saying "look right" or "look left" as is appropriate. 12:30
Juerd_ Even after two days, I still wasn't used to looking to the right first.
dmq I have to say that I view this one maybe a little differently than others, my view is you should never assume that you only need to check one way. 12:31
Juerd_ It's a habit...
dmq your momma taught you to check both ways before crossing for a reason. :-)
Juerd_ A bad one indeed.
dmq yes, vehicles dont always follow the rules and you cant assume they will. For instance brakes fail, vehicles roll down hills, people back up, or get confused. etc. 12:32
Im kinda hard ass on that point becuase i was a cycle messenger for a few years.
And i saw a lot of people get nailed by stuff like that.
Juerd_ Hm. where do cyclists go on English roundabouts?
dmq what do you mean? 12:33
normally the only place you can safely stay is on the outside.
Juerd_ Well, we drive on the right side, so cyclists are the most right. In roundabouts, that means they're on the outside.
Hm, that's the same over there of course.
dmq same thing, just the directions are reversed iirc.
Juerd_ Nevermind, I wasn't thinking :)
Well, I was, but not very logically. 12:34
wolverian heh, I didn't realise that either. dammit.
dmq I saw three people get killed while i was courier in london.
Juerd_ Hm
dmq all three were for not looking.
Juerd_ We have three kinds of roundabouts here, in terms of how cyclists are treated.
dmq two north americans who stepped into "empty" roads because they looked the wrong way, and 1 pedestrian who assumed that just becuase the cars couldnt move that cyclists or motorcycles couldnt be moving in between them. 12:35
Juerd_ 1. bicycles go with normal traffic, on the roundabout itself. They get precedence.
dmq in my experience comparing bicycle interactions in holland with anywhere else is a mistake. its totally unlike anywhere else ive been anyway. 12:36
Juerd_ 2. separated bicycle paths, that have normal intersections around the roundabout. Cyclists get right of way
3. Same as 2, but they don't.
dmq i mean even mentioning bicycles getting precedence is unlike pretty much anywhere else. 12:37
Juerd_ No, comparing is a good thing. Eventually, someone might learn something from it.
wolverian there aren't enough bicyclers here.
Juerd_ If bicycles don't get precedence, they should have separated paths, that aren't part of the roundabout.
dmq I almost fell off my bike the first time i was in holland. I crossed the german border and this huge articulated bus STOPPED FOR ME. I was shocked.
Juerd_ Haha 12:38
I've forced them to.
dmq Like a hundred people waited for me to haul my sorry butt and bicycle out of the way. And im standing there looking at the bus thinking WTF are you doing, get on with it so i can go.
Juerd_ One time, a bus wasn't going to give me my precedence.
So I parked by bicycle right in front of him, and walked to the driver.
And asked why. He said he couldn't see me. He was right. 12:39
I mailed the local govenment, and they changed the situation within a year.
dmq what was the deal? the road layout?
Juerd_ Yes.
wolverian Juerd_, very nice.
dmq Thats cool.
Juerd_ wolverian: I thought so
dmq In London the busses aim at you generally. 12:40
wolverian a year is very very fast.
Juerd_ A lot of people had complained about this specific spot.
But nobody suggested improvement.
They only changed one tiny thing: there now is a second bicycle lane, in the middle of the road, for people who don't go to the right.
dmq See thats totally unlike how most places i can think of work. 12:41
Juerd_ But such coloured strips on the road are indications for drivers that they should pay extra attention. They get a warning before reaching the point where they can no longer see you.
dmq Ive seen them pull out cycle lanes because the stores next to it complain that nobody can park.
Juerd_ dmq: :(
dmq im serious. for a cyclist holland is like the garden of eden. 12:42
Juerd_ Hm, really
I think we could do much better.
dmq i was there a while ago in a hotel that overlooked a fairly intense intersection and i was marveling at how well engineered the path was
the cycle path i mean.
it was angled so people coming off the road at a reasonable clip would be able to take the turn without hassle. 12:43
Juerd_ That's supposed to be common sense
dmq it wasnt like a straight 90 degree turn.
I mean, I watched some people take the turn at a pretty good speed and then just leaned over and held their course.
in Toronto it would have been a straight 90 degree turn with no clearance. 12:44
Juerd_ Straight 90 degrees anything is uncommon in traffic here, these decades. They've removed houses to make wider turns possible.
dmq IE, engineered for movign at like 3 klicks or something.
being able to take turns like that in traffic was what seperated the couriers from the pedestrian cyclists. :-) 12:45
All i know is i marvel every time i go to Holland.
Juerd_ I live near a dangerous complicated intersection of 5 roads. But indeed foreigners have said it was great...
dmq What a fantastic place. :-)
Juerd_ It should be a big roundabout, IMO, but they can't do that because it's the main route for the fire department. 12:46
dmq I guess everything is relative, but yeah, for somebody like me riding a bike in holland (even germany) is totally different to the UK or Canada.
and those little 125 cc motor bikes -- you can ride them on the cycle lanes in holland right? 12:47
Juerd_ maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&a...iwloc=addr
dmq do you need a license?
lambdabot Title: Google Maps, tinyurl.com/ykpp72
Juerd_ You need what's called a "certificate" 12:48
Which is a license.
dmq but not hard to get i surmise from the quotes?
wolverian Juerd_, the intersections like that here are insane, but perhaps I can't make out the detail well enough to see if they're really similar.
Juerd_ Though the general rule is that motorized bikes have to join normal traffic, unless there's a specific local sign saying otherwise.
dmq let me see if i can find a map of the hairyiest intersection i can remember.
Juerd_ It's incredibly not-hard-to-get. 12:49
But the dumbest people still fail...
And they're loud.
& # toilet; brb
dmq maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ou...earch+Maps 12:50
lambdabot Title: hyde park corner - Google Maps, tinyurl.com/tlolh
dmq maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ou...&zp=II 12:51
lambdabot Title: old street london - Google Maps, tinyurl.com/wsh3x
dmq maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ou...&zp=OI 12:53
lambdabot Title: Tower Bridge Approach, Tower Hamlets, Greater London, EC3 - Google Maps, tinyurl.com/vpyg7
dmq all three of those are hairy as hell.
of course thats what happen when you do civic planning by goat trail. 12:55
Juerd_ Should have done that earlier 12:57
re
wolverian roundabouts for goats :) 12:58
Juerd_ The Hyde Park Corner one is a bit dark on the air photos 12:59
Re Old Street... A square roundabout. What were they thinking? 13:00
"Cool, now we can have 4 straight corners, just like before"
This way you get four complicated intersections instead of just one
dmq th thing the map doesnt show is how important that intersection is. 13:01
its a major road.
like 6 lanes or so coming into the intersection from the north
then picadilly is 4 lanes, etc etc. 13:02
Juerd_ maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&a...k&om=1
lambdabot Title: Google Maps, tinyurl.com/yd7cjs
Juerd_ You can see it on that one
dmq yeah, if you do zoom 0 you can see it well. 13:03
Juerd_ Oh, wow, that's high resolution
dmq thats another high traffic intersection.
Juerd_ I'm used to 2 being the best you can get from Google Maps, so I don't even try more.
Multi lane roundabouts suck, unless they're "turbo roundabouts". 13:04
Do you have those? :)
(turborotonde)
dmq the street going south is the main road into the square mile from the north. so it has a lot of traffic.
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Juerd_ i1.tinypic.com/xm8k1w.jpg 13:05
A turboroundabout is the only kind of multi lane roundabout that works.
All others are better replaced with traffic lights.
dmq nods 13:06
that looks like it might be reasonable sane on a bicycle.
Juerd_ Oh, NO!
No way.
Turboroundabouts are NEVER allowed for cyclists, as far as I've seen.
These are always of the kind where bicycle paths are around the roundabout.
The "turbo" thing also relates to speed. 13:07
maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&a...k&om=1 13:10
lambdabot Title: Google Maps, tinyurl.com/y8omxp
Juerd_ See, the cyclists get their own system outside the roundabout
Would be terribly unsafe otherwise
maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&a...k&om=1 13:13
lambdabot Title: Google Maps, tinyurl.com/yfxlet
dmq oh ok
Juerd_ That's typical in populated areas
Bicycle intensity is high enough to warrant dedicated paths
That go outside the roundabout.
This one is big, so the cyclists get to go clockwise if they choose. That would never be possible on a roundabout :) 13:14
maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&a...k&om=1 13:16
lambdabot Title: Google Maps, tinyurl.com/yfxlet
Juerd_ Smaller, but still separated
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nothingmuch nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO/t/native_p5.t 15:09
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ygur42
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Juerd_ What is MO? 15:25
nirgle montana? 15:48
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nothingmuch Juerd_: nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO/ 15:53
lambdabot Title: Index of /MO
Juerd_ Aha. Meta Object! 15:55
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gaal mo 'm':'o':oose | oose == "oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooose" = True 16:06
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svnbot6 r14730 | fglock++ | MP6 - added $<var>, $/, do{block}, return blocks 16:34
thepler is there a way to get all the objects of a class currently in memory? like maybe Foo.HOW.all_objects 16:38
nothingmuch thepler: not as specced 16:39
but if you write a meta class that does object tracking there's no reason why not
thepler will that not be available from the default meta class? 16:40
nothingmuch it's expensive and not very useful
i mean, you don't really want a 20x size overhead to track Ints, do you ;-)
thepler it would let one look at all classes as relations (ie SQL tables) 16:41
yes, it would take more memory
nothingmuch in theory: 16:48
subclass the metaclass
override the low level constructor
to also register instances
ditto for the low level destructor
and blammo, you're done
thepler yes.
nothingmuch you should even be able to do class MyLovely meta Meta::Class but Meta::ObjectAccounting { }
thepler i suppose the case for Ints is overkill
but maybe a debugger might want to see all the Ints 16:49
i was assuming that the default metaclass might already be tracking all it's objects 16:50
nothingmuch then the debugger can hijack themetaclass,i guess 17:00
remember that perl is dynamic at heart
you can hack that stuff in
but if it's not universally useful, but it does come at a price, it's probably not on by default 17:01
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pmurias hi, 17:27
isn't it possible to get the info about all objects of a given class from the garbage collector? 17:28
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nothingmuch explain? 17:31
scsys.co.uk:8001/5007
lambdabot Title: perl_web paste from "nothingmuch" at 81.29.65.220...
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pmurias nothingmuch: the garbagde collector knows about everything in memory, right? 17:42
nothingmuch yes 17:43
pmurias so you get the list of all the stuff and filter for the ones with the right class
nothingmuch well, not necessarily
pmurias some things can be optimised out maybe
nothingmuch ah
well, some objects might not be known
stack only objects, for example
pmurias does the gc has to walk through all of the objects to detect references? 17:44
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nothingmuch not necessarily 17:45
pmurias never code or examined a gc myself so it was only a wild guess.. 17:46
nothingmuch: how? 17:47
s/how?/why?/
nothingmuch one sec
phone
pmurias fine
awwaiid well gc's do reference counting, usually. The only reason to actually walk all objects is to do a mark-and-sweep, killing things which are not referenced by the main group 17:48
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awwaiid many GCs are generational, such that they do reference counting (when an obj ref -> 0, kill it) and then they do a mark-and-sweep occasionally ... they do it in a such a way that long-lived objects are put into a group and are mark-and-swept less frequently (because the odds of them going away is smaller) 17:49
tons and tons of literature on the topic abounds elsewhere
nothingmuch back
one example
sub foo { my $obj = Foo->new; blah blah blah; } $obj never escapes 17:50
a compiler could optimize $obj to live on the stack only
so that it never needs garbage collection
awwaiid nice
nothingmuch awwaiid: ocaml does that extensively =) 17:51
pmurias awwaid: was looking at wikipedia when you answered me :)
awwaiid makes sense
nothingmuch my point is, the compiler should strive for a situation where it doesn't need to keep track of every object
since that's expensive, and Perl 6 uses autoboxing so that every value is potentially an object in some contexts
pmurias nothingmuch: can't the blah blah blah save $obj? 17:52
nothingmuch if it does save it the compiler can't make that optimization
awwaiid the compiler has to prove to itself that it doesn't
nothingmuch however, if the compiler can prove that it doesn't escape
it doesn't have to codegen a GC registration on the allocation of $obj
pmurias i understand
nothingmuch or a GC sweep at the scope exit if all the objects in that scope can be proven as such 17:53
since perl 6 doesn't spec a GC api that lets you enumerate all objects
one must assume that list will probably be partial if it is at all exposed
dinnertime
see you =)
pmurias see you :)
awwaiid bye! 17:54
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awwaiid nothingmuch, we might have a hackathon here in phoenix 17:54
nothingmuch awwaiid: cool! 18:15
when?
Limbic_Region anyone aware of recent build failures? 18:16
Limbic_Region just did a realclean just in case
yep, confirmed b0rk build on Win32 18:26
perlbot nopaste
perlbot Paste your code at sial.org/pbot/perl and #perl will be able to view it
lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 24.35.57.240 pasted "Win32 Build failure" (22 lines, 1.8K) at sial.org/pbot/21082 18:27
Limbic_Region does Pugs.Internals.ID need to go into Pugs.cabal? 18:29
well, adding Pugs.Internals.ID to Pugs.cabal.in certainly changes the output but it is still b0rk 18:37
@tell audreyt Win32 build failure due to Pugs.Internals.ID sial.org/pbot/21082 I guessed that it had something to do with Pugs.cabal.in but just adding it as an exposed module didn't fix the problem (though it died for a different reason) 18:38
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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anatolyv ?seen TimToady 19:48
lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I last heard TimToady speak 1d 14h 33m 23s ago.
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cmarcelo Limbic_Region: could you try compiling r14731? 20:23
svnbot6 r14731 | cmarcelo++ | * Pugs.cabal.in: Adding new modules to list: Pugs.Internals.*
cmarcelo Not only .ID was missing but other new modules in Pugs.Internals. "namespace"... 20:24
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - sure, just a sec
I really should really learn how to do more than just complain that stuff is b0rk 20:25
beginning compile now 20:28
cmarcelo - sorry, was distracted - it blew up too 20:32
I will nopaste
cmarcelo ok
(your compiling included doing a 'perl Makefile.PL'?) 20:33
pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 24.35.57.240 pasted "cmarcelo - here is the output with the new Pugs.cabal.in" (68 lines, 3.6K) at sial.org/pbot/21088
Limbic_Region yes
cmarcelo you did realclean also? 20:35
Limbic_Region yes
doing all steps again just to be sure
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Limbic_Region IOW - realclean, svn up, perl Makefile.PL, nmake 20:36
cmarcelo I'll realclean and do it again here to be sure, too.
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Limbic_Region starting build now 20:40
cmarcelo - same error 20:42
cmarcelo (I'm 45% still) 20:45
Limbic_Region I bomb at 2 of 97
cmarcelo hmm, right.. I passed that :P 20:46
but with prev rev you passed 2/97 also, dont you?
Limbic_Region no - bombs at the same place
oh - you mean prior to your last rev - yes 20:47
I get beyond 97 of 97 before the bomb
trying something now 20:48
cmarcelo that's strange.. I've just included new modules in this rev.. mind checking if prev revision passes 2/97?
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - just rm'd Pugs.cabal.in and svn up'd
will try that suggestion in a sec
first - would you mind nopasting your working Pugs.cabal.in?
nevermind - rm'ing it fixed it 20:49
or rather - it is now getting beyond 2 of 97 20:50
likely my local changes fubard things
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Limbic_Region 68 of 97 and going strong 20:54
cmarcelo just a sec 20:55
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pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.236.247 pasted "Pugs.cabal.in" (23 lines, 2.1K) at sial.org/pbot/21089 20:56
Limbic_Region no need now -
[15:50] <Limbic_Region> nevermind - rm'ing it fixed it
94 of 97
@tell audreyt nevermind the Pugs.cabal.in - apparently I was on the right track but there was more missing than just ID - fixed by cmarcelo++ 20:58
lambdabot Consider it noted.
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - fixed
thanks
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cmarcelo Limbic_Region: yay! :) 21:00
what was wrong? you had local changes on cabal.in ?
Limbic_Region right - I had tried to add the ID to exposed modules and then to other modules playing around 21:01
I thought I had properly removed them but obviously svn choked on the svn up
Limbic_Region is just happy that his hunch about the problem was in the right neighborhood
:D
cmarcelo :) 21:04
dear perl6 folks: which Syn contain information regarding Feeds, and it's relation with Captures? can captures hold more than one feed? does this question even make sense? 21:05
nothingmuch cmarcelo: nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO/t/native_p5.t 21:07
=)
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ygur42
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - the feed operator can be found is S03 21:10
cmarcelo nothingmuch: Class::Inspector is a Perl 5 standard OO module?
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - actually, S06 has a section on Feed operators too - so S03 and S06 21:11
nothingmuch no 21:12
cmarcelo nothingmuch: sorry, by standard I meant, it works with other OO "class creators" too? (think Moose or some Class::...) 21:13
nothingmuch oh
cmarcelo Limbic_Region: I'll check them out, tks..
nothingmuch it works with plain old 'package Foo; sub moose { }'
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - anytime you are wondering such things
cd docs/Perl6/Spec
grep -l <keyword> *.pod
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cmarcelo documents on Spec/ are sync'ed with the perl.org Synopsis repo? 21:16
Limbic_Region cmarcelo - have you ever watched when you svn up
it syncs them as part of that process
or perhaps Makefile.PL or make
somewhere along the way they are sync'd
cmarcelo right. what I didn't knew is that it renamed the files... 21:18
nothingmuch moooseness! 21:19
nothingmuch is bored
cmarcelo nothingmuch: hmmm, lots of new perl things to learn in recent MO commits..
nothingmuch cmarcelo: please disregard the yucky impl of MO::Emit::P5
it's implemented kind of slopily 21:20
what new things?
cmarcelo hehe. I was reading that file..
nothingmuch it needs to be refactored a bit
cmarcelo *{"${package}::${method}"} = $hash->{$method};
nothingmuch and it needs a wrapper API
ah, that's just a symbol table assignment 21:21
cmarcelo *{} syntax is new to me.. typeglob stuff, no?
nothingmuch yep
Limbic_Region with sym refs no less
one of the few places sym refs are a good thing
cmarcelo nothingmuch: what's this new stack thing? 21:24
nothingmuch cmarcelo: pugs has that in the eval monad 21:25
i need caller for ByCaller multiplexing
and putting it in Invocation was ugly
see also MO::Run::Aux 21:29
the way it maps between responder interfaces and packages
@tell audreyt MO::Emit::P5 is ugly, but it works ;-) nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO/t/native_p5.t 21:31
lambdabot Consider it noted.
ofer0 I just love this lambda bot. 21:34
nothingmuch @botsnack
lambdabot :)
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cmarcelo nothingmuch: RI::Multiplexed::ByCaller allows to have different responder interfaces for different callers.. you use this to deal with something else than private methods/attrs? or I got it wrong? 21:41
nothingmuch precisely 21:49
it's slightly hackish, i guess
but it works
and it's only-pay-for-what-you-use
and it's composable
zzz time 21:51
Limbic_Region sleep well nothingmuch
cmarcelo nothingmuch: boa noite.
nothingmuch AAH! SNAKES
SNAKES ON AN IRC CHANNEL
cmarcelo !
Limbic_Region . o O ( There are motherfreaking snakes on this motherfreaking channel? )' 21:52
nothingmuch I've had it with them
nothingmuch actually feels like seeing that movie
anymoose, ciao
22:04 lisppaste3 joined
anatolyv cmarcelo: "Capture objects may contain multiple unresolved iterators such as feeds or slices. How these are resolved depends on what they are eventually bound to." 22:09
(S02) 22:10
cmarcelo anatolyv: nice, tks. 22:12
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svnbot6 r14732 | cmarcelo++ | * MO/si.hs: more sketch on mkBoxMethod... (not compiling yet) 22:18
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