pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
00:09 thorat left 00:16 Schwern left
pugs_svnbot r17127 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : large updates to DB.pod and SeeAlso.pod, to finish their separation from their counterparts in the Language::MuldisD repo (MuldisD.pod and SeeAlso.pod); lots of minor renaming-type updates in the other .pod files 00:39
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17127
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17127 - Pugs - Trac
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diakopter @tell moritz no, I wasn't referring to any tinyurl. I mean, if you tell IE6 to go to moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?ch...19#id_l318 it loads the correct page, but does not scroll down to the anchor #id_l318 01:40
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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Zoffix diakopter, it's something with the headers you are sending it. Are you sending some cache headers? 02:18
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diakopter Zoffix: ok 02:24
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pugs_svnbot r17128 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : large updates to the README, Changes, TODO files, to finish their separation from their counterparts in the Language::MuldisD repo 07:46
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17128
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17128 - Pugs - Trac
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diakopter um, that was interesting. pugs 'make soon' compiled in 3 minutes, immediately following a (successful) 'make realclean'. 08:33
masak that's soon. 08:37
diakopter I seem to recall it taking about 10x longer than that, previously. perhaps I'm mistaken, though. 08:40
masak if nothing seems to be amiss, 3 minutes is good news, no? 08:41
Alias_ heh
masak coffee breaks are getting shorter, but otherwise...
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diakopter tries again just in case I fell asleep during the build without realizing, and times it for good measure. 08:43
masak :)
diakopter hm; make realclean needs a bit of help; 'svn status' after 'make realclean' shows several unversioned files 08:44
but certainly none that would help out ghc/Cabal....
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pugs_svnbot r17129 | diakopter++ | Fixed a typo. Look! I modified a .hs file! \nI'm now a Haskell programmer! Oh wait, it's just a comment block... 08:49
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17129
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17129 - Pugs - Trac
masak diakopter++ # haskell comment hacker
diakopter Haskell.tmbundle (TextMate) is nifty... (I must always have the very best golf clubs before I fix typos in comments.) 08:51
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masak goes to look up TextMate 08:58
Patterner TextMate is good.
masak this Mac culture thingie is disorienting for me as a long-time Linux user
suddenly I have to pay for some things
I'm not used to paying for software
Aankh|Clone diakopter: ROTFLMAO. 08:59
masak I know that FOSS != free as in beer, but still that is the immediate and most noticeable effect for me 09:00
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diakopter you don't pay to *use* !freeware.. you pay to be slightly-safer(or so they want you to think)-from-(groundless?-)prosecution-than-if-you-used-a-warez/serialz/crackd/keygen version of the !freeware. That said, I'll likely pay for a TextMate when the trial runs out. But probably not appleDarwin10.5. 09:03
a TextMate license <sigh> 09:04
masak diakopter: for me it's not the consequences of using a warez version that limits me, it's the morality of it 09:05
for some reason, I prefer to use software under the conditions that their author(s) have set up for it
that said, I mostly use FOSSware
diakopter masak: I didn't say I would *use* appleDarwin10.5... (or TextMate after the trial runs out). It's just that in some cases, the true 'author(s)' are hard to pin down. 09:07
masak diakopter: why are they hard to pin down? I imagine that those who accept money should be pretty easy to reach 09:09
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diakopter masak: 'pin down', meaning 'identify'. 09:18
masak diakopter: ok. when would it matter that they are hard to identify? 09:21
diakopter I mean to say that in some cases (okay, fewer than I was implying), a bit of copy-protected software isn't worth the license fee b/c it's composed of a ton of FOSS, with a tiny bit of functionality added on (and perhaps a trademark on the rebrand/rename), and so, is in my opinion, not worth reimplementing myself (if even I could), but also not worth paying the license fee. In those cases, I would rather send some money to the ... 09:27
... makers of the FOSS libraries that enabled the person to wrap/bundle/copy-protect it.
masak diakopter: ah 09:28
diakopter: also, sometimes, as is the case with e.g. Menufela, the fee is basically for the packaging of a registry setting somewhere 09:29
nevertheless, I'm seriously contemplating paying the $5 it costs, because I liked those settings 09:30
but still it's a strange new world for one who is used to the idea of free (as in beer) knowledge
diakopter If I can honestly say that I would feel guilty demanding a license fee >USD$x for this bit of copy-protected software (if I were the copy-protector), then I'm going to have a harder time feeling good/willing about paying for it. 09:31
masak that's some kind of reverse golden rule logic :) 09:32
diakopter I mean, if (say) the author found out about my (theoretical) copy-protection-avoidance via a kernel extension that bypassed Little Snitch and sent a packet somewhere or (even more cruelly and effectively impossible to detect) used public DNS lookups to send himself information from my computer, but still took the time to send me an email and (somewhat successfully) try to convince me that he deserves the license fee for his ... 09:36
... efforts, I'd seriously consider paying the fee, just b/c the person was willing and able to persuade me the software is worth it. But then I'd probably turn around and blog about the surreptitious information delivery. 09:37
I don't know of any tools that help a firewall blacklist authoritative DNS servers.... and still that would be helpful only for those who don't use any intermediary recursively resolving DNS servers (but instead use only their own). 09:39
Alias_ has kind of always wanted to release something people liked enough to pay 09:40
But I never get around to doing anything sufficiently end-usery
Most of my stuff is toolchain and support modules
diakopter Alias_: I daresay if you put up a donate link somewhere, you'd get donations. I say that without knowing whether you already have a donate link..... :) 09:42
Alias_ I don't
masak hm. the freeware concept of paying for a proper/complete version, never appealed to me
Alias_: I agree with diakopter. put up a donate link
Alias_ hmm
Trouble is that from what I can tell, nobody donates to small stuff 09:43
I looked at the sourceforge donation stuff once, and hardly anyone ever did
Except to the really popular end-user stuff
masak Alias_: but you do good blogging as well. I enjoy reading your blog posts sometimes. my guess is that those give you an image and an increased target for donation than the small sourceforge projects 09:46
Alias_ maybe
diakopter Alias_: well as long as your reputation is even somewhat close to the "Starving Artist" image as opposed to the patent/trademark-exploiting trivialware... you'd do okay. :)
Alias_ heh 09:47
The image of a Starving Artist is something I would like to avoid though
So the question is, how to do it tactfully while retaining my dignity :)
masak: Glad you like the posts btw
Please don't call it a blog though :)
Makes me cringe :) 09:48
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masak Alias_: ok -- journal? 09:48
Alias_ yup
masak the difference is slightly blurred for me
though I agree that 'blog' is a silly word
Alias_ Well, I see a blog as a sort of stream of conciousness thing
masak heh
Alias_ "What I saw on this website today"
etc
masak I see
Alias_ Some are themed, some are personal etc
I see use.perl as a development journal 09:49
masak yes
diakopter how about The Seasoned Professional Who Deserves And Earns A Reasonable Profit, And Gives Back To The Community From His Produce?
Alias_ A place to note the Perl stuff I'm working on, or prototype talks/thoughts
Mostly so I don't have to say the same things over and over and can just point to URLs
:)
Which is why I started it in the first place 09:50
I got sick of explaining document/code duality
masak Alias_: re avoiding the Starving Artist image: just don't be unnatural about the donation stuff. make it blend in -- not disappear, but not scream out in any way either 09:51
Alias_ ya
masak maybe Wikipedia is a good role model
their donation notices don't disturb me at all
Alias_ wikipedia is also one of those things that's heavily used and mostly by end-users
I'll think of something
masak Wikipedia is the only thing I've ever donated to, btw
diakopter Alias_: developers are end-users, too. 09:52
Alias_ really?
(masak)
masak yes. so they did something right :)
maybe I should say the only computer-related thing
Alias_ ya 09:53
diakopter Alias_: I mean: they're the end-users of your products. And I'm sure many of them consider themselves such.
Alias_ I suppose I could start the "Strategic Drama Bomb Reward" fund
masak :)
that's a great name! where can I donate? 09:54
Alias_ ala Vertical Metre of Beer fund :)
In fact...
masak care to explain the name, btw? 09:55
Alias_ It comes from the original creation of Vanilla Perl 09:56
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Alias_ Two years ago this month, at OSCON, I did my PPI talk, but I couldn't do the live PPI::Tester demo, because ActivePerl doesn't have a working CPAN client 09:56
masak it doesn't? 09:57
Alias_ nope
masak uncool
Alias_ They have binary packages
masak eech
Alias_ unfortunately, their binary package build system is also screwed
Fatally
I had spent almost 9 months trying to get them to fix it and help them out
masak :(
Alias_ In the end, 3 months after OSCON, we hit a dead end
masak why?
Alias_ They couldn't fix the problem, for business/legal reasons 09:58
masak sighs
Alias_ They had guarenteed binary backcompatibility to 5.8.0 for all their binary packages
Which cause the build system to get confused about and break Scalar::Util
AND EVERYTHING THAT DEPENDS ON IT
szbalint oh my
Alias_ Recursively
masak ...I seem to remember scraps of this
Alias_ ya
szbalint nice hole they dug themselves into
masak you've probably journalled about it
Alias_ A few times 09:59
masak :)
Alias_ I also asked if they could just bundle dmake and mingw gcc with ActivePerl
Which would give us a working CPAN client and make the point moot
And that ended with a DIFFERENT legal dead end
Because ActivePerl contains some minor amounts of code that is released under the ActivePerl license
And the ActivePerl license is incompatible with the GPL
*head*desk* 10:00
masak :(
Alias_ So at that point, I decided ActivePerl was non-recoverable, and we should just make a new Win32 distro
I mean, how hard could it be right
masak :)
Alias_ By that point, I'd figured out through all this that the binary PPM system ActivePerl used was no longer necesary
Because of dmake (nmake replacement) and gcc(mingw) working natively on Win32 10:01
So theoretically you could make a complete working Perl
But of course I don't know C
So I spent 2-3 months trying to get people that did know C and make and such to help make me a simple Win32 installer
And it went nowhere, people would offer to help, and then do nothing
The curse of the volunteer project, of course 10:02
masak yes
Alias_ So I decided I needed to take a new approach
masak money
Alias_ kinda
szbalint yeah it's kind of a "scratch an itch" thing with a lot of volunteer projects
Alias_ So I made a public offer, a reward.
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Alias_ That I would give whoever brought me a working Win32 Perl installer, meeting certain criteria but not specifying how it should be created, a vertical metre of beer 10:03
That is, they pick a beer, and we buy crates of it and stack them up until it was a metre high
And I pay 10:04
Any beer they wanted
(excepting of course stupidly overpriced $10 a bottle ones) :)
masak that's a great reward
Alias_ indeed
masak I wish there were more such rewards
Alias_ I posted it in my journal 10:05
masak I remember
Alias_ And it got, I'm told, copied around to a ton of monger lists
And I had a working installer in two days
:)
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masak *lol* 10:05
szbalint lol
Alias_ Two in fact, using two entirely different approaches
One beat the other by like an hour
So it wasn't the money 10:06
It was the sheer insanity and attention-grabbing nature of the reward, and the social reward of winning it
diakopter it was the novelty of the reward, and the story they could tell about it.
Alias_ indeed
szbalint nicely done anyway
Alias_ The guy that won it was from the same city as me
diakopter what you said
szbalint is the solution still in use?
Alias_ In fact, the head of my monger group
The winning one isn't 10:07
He wrote a macro-installer
It was 500k
Juerd I always thought vertical meters were bottles, not crates, and was underwhelmed by such contests :)
And I did wonder how to stack bottles like that.
masak Alias_: what did the beer cost you in the end, if you don't mind me asking?
Alias_ About AU $180
The installer started up, then went to the ActivePerl website, and downloaded ActivePerl, then downloaded dmake, and some C++ editor that just happened to have a working gcc in it 10:08
And the macro-installer installed all three, and automated the configuration to make them work together
masak Alias_: also, you haven't explained the "drama bomb reward" name
Alias_ oh... "drama bomb" is an EVE Online term
For intentionally, generally with no warning, announcing something rediculously attention grabbing 10:09
And real
szbalint heh.
Alias_ (of course)
szbalint This was the last channel I expected someone to talk about eve online
:)
Alias_ Imagine audreyt turning up and announcing she was releasing an official Perl 6 beta today
That's a drama bomb :)
szbalint, you play?
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szbalint indeed 10:10
Alias_ refers szbalint to irc.perl.org #eve
szbalint ty 10:11
Alias_ Anyways
The metre of beer reward also drove kane to defeat Acme::BadExample
Which was what inspired using the same thing for good, instead of evil
szbalint btw how can I connect to irc.perl.org? The dns doesn't seem to be working 10:13
Host g.irc.perl.org not found: 2(SERVFAIL)
Alias_ try irc://cou.ch/eve 10:14
szbalint ty 10:15
diakopter perl.org's DNS has been sporadically failing for years... I've complained over and over about it; but no one ever believes me. 10:20
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diakopter Alias_: what do you know about www.scons.org/ 10:33
lambdabot Title: SCons: A software construction tool
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szbalint diakopter: I believe you. 10:42
Alias_ diakopter, absolutely nothing 10:44
Except that it's in Python and has no support for Perl 10:47
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masak Fortress looks seriously cool 11:59
Alias_ Fortress?
The movie? :/ 12:00
masak the language
Alias_ ah, url?
masak I'll get you a link, brb
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_(pro..._language) 12:01
masak is reading the spec right now
it has much in common with p6, actually
...including being in an early stage of development :) 12:03
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meppl gugu 13:26
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masak meppl: I still haven't figured out this 'gugu' thing. does it mean 'hi' in your local dialect? 13:35
?eval class Gugu { method it { "gugu" } } my $gugu = new Gugu; "I say $gugu.it, you say $gugu.it, let's call the whole thing off." 13:37
evalbot_r pugs: user error (*** *** Can't modify constant item: VUndefā¤ at <prelude> line 782, column 9-46ā¤ <prelude> line 782, column 9-46ā¤ at)ā¤
masak :(
evalbot_r: I wasn't trying to modify anything 13:38
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lumi masak: I think you're missing a semicolon, maybe? 14:16
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masak lumi: I think I've successfully skipped semicolons after closing class }'s before 14:24
but I'll give it a shot
?eval class Gugu { method it { "gugu" } }; my $gugu = new Gugu; "I say $gugu.it, you say $gugu.it, let's call the whole thing off."
evalbot_r pugs: user error (*** *** Can't modify constant item: VUndefā¤ at <prelude> line 782, column 9-46ā¤ <prelude> line 782, column 9-46ā¤ at)ā¤
masak :(
meppl masak, some austrian people say "gugu" to little childs. its slang. it comes from the verb "kucken"(to watch) as command "kuck!"(watch!) --> "kuck kuck" --> "gugu" 14:25
masak, so, the mother says "guguu" to the baby and the child looks on its mother 14:26
its a greeting
masak meppl: ah
you learn something every day :) 14:27
gugu to you too, then
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Zoffix Is there some channel where I could play with the eval bot? 14:28
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fglock meppl: hey - my parents used to do that :) 14:29
pugs_svnbot r17130 | fglock++ | [kp6] unTODO infix:<==>
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17130
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17130 - Pugs - Trac
meppl ;) 14:30
fglock Zoffix: run.pugscode.org/ - but it seems to be down 14:33
lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
Zoffix Thanks. 14:34
fglock or maybe I've got the port blocked 14:35
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Zoffix Works for me. 14:37
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Zoffix Though you have a typo in href="" on that page. "....Pugs</a>interpreter for <a href="dev.perl.org/perl%206/">Perl&...t;/a>." That link gives 404. Seems it's href="dev.perl.org/perl6/" without a space. 14:39
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diakopter Zoffix: you should be able to PM the evalbot directly 15:36
but, it might be better to use run.pugscode.org, if it's up.
oh
I see someone already said that
Zoffix: would you like a commit bit for pugs (so you can fix that href typo)? otherwise I or anyone else can fix it... 15:37
masak diakopter: don't give him an easy escape, just give him the commit bit :) 15:39
diakopter heh
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diakopter Zoffix: PM me your email address and preferred svn username. :) 15:39
Zoffix diakopter, done 15:40
Zoffix runs to work
diakopter Zoffix: sent! welcome aboard. 15:43
BinGOs and god save your souls.
avar *gasp* 15:44
BinGOs svn co 15:46
svn del *
svn commit -m "Snigger"
diakopter eh?
BinGOs d'oh I missed the tar zxvf python.tar.gz bit there 15:47
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BinGOs huggles diakopter 15:47
I was being wonderously humourous.
diakopter hm. huggies is a diaper ("nappy"?) brand
BinGOs erm
diakopter sorry; huggles you said
BinGOs 'huggles' is a cuter form of hugs.
anyways.... 15:48
diakopter i see, haskell users' golfing system
BinGOs I am in your pugs, smoking.
masak just wanted to note, to anyone who has the knowhow to fix it, that dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A07.html gives a 404 right now. I know it isn't very long, but it's being referenced from perlcabal.org/syn/ so it'd be nicer if it was present 15:57
s/was/were/ # conditional is hard for us foreigners
diakopter masak: :D it's been 404 for at least a year. I think I mentioned it to someone back then and someone said it didn't matter... 15:59
masak diakopter: 404s always matter 16:00
unless they are intentional, which they very seldom are
and that just makes them matter but in a different way
I think it matters because the AES are the most official in the way of docs that perl6 has 16:01
and a 404 in the midst of official docs is a big deal 16:02
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diakopter masak: of course, I agree. I was merely reporting my inquisitive experience. 16:15
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diakopter Juerd: ping 16:48
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diakopter Alias_: "scons" that I asked you about - it's managed by the guy that wrote "cons" for Perl 8-9 years ago. 17:23
or who at least maintained it back then.
Alias_ I've never heard of either
tbh
diakopter neither had I until I started researching make replacments
btw, for whoever's interested, make soon truly does complete in less than 2 minutes (not including /etc) 17:26
I mean, not including /ext 17:27
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diakopter yesterday I asked Dr. GHC about that unified event/threading/concurrency model/implementation by Peng Li (honorary Perl 6 S17), and he said that Peng Li was working on reducing his implementation's performance hit with the goal of integrating it into GHC proper eventually (several months to a year perhaps). 18:17
[particle] it'd be nice to track the progress of that project more closely. any idea if that's possible? 18:19
diakopter I dunno. :) I suppose we could ask Peng Li if he wants to use the pugs subversion repo for scm. :) 18:20
[particle] that's certainly one way :)
diakopter does anyone know how to tell ghc/cabal to 'make install' HsSyck and hsregex? 18:22
(so that they don't have to be rebuilt after a 'make (real)clean')
although I suppose another make target could be forked for that purpose. 18:23
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Aankhen`` I have to admit, I don't understand how to apply the unified concurrency model to languages other than Haskell. 18:40
diakopter muses MJD's HOP::Parser combined with Template::Declare's magic could be used to write Grammars.... 18:41
Aankhen``: for (theoretical) use in pugs... in case such optimization possibilities end up being helpful in bootstrapping. 18:42
Aankhen`` diakopter: Eh wha?
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diakopter Aankhen``: I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about, but I was imagining that tool being used by pugs... but that the api/model itself is portable to Perl 6. 18:44
TimToady: help? :)
Aankhen`` Heh. 18:45
I know Perl 6 will use the same model, I just don't understand how it works.
I'm probably in over my head.
diakopter Aankhen``: join the club... 18:47
(as they say)
Aankhen`` Hehe.
diakopter what's (of course) up in the air is how it would work on non-Linux or Linux<2.4. 18:48
(if at all)
Aankhen`` Yeh.
I like the combined actors + events + threads model, personally. :-) 18:49
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pugs_svnbot r17131 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : this is the Perl 6 equivalent of what will end up on CPAN as Muldis::DB version 0.3.0 for Perl 5 19:40
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17131
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17131 - Pugs - Trac
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szbalint win 3 20:00
err
ignore these three lines :) 20:01
dduncan what 3 lines?
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Juerd diakopter: pong 20:12
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kane__ alias: stubborness drove me to beat acme::badexample.. i got a good talk out of it and a meter of beer... life is good ;) 21:27
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Alias_ A potential metre of beer at least :) 21:27
kane__: But I'm sure the OFFER/CHALLENGE attracted your initial attention right? 21:28
kane__ yes
Alias_ Which is about 50% of the point
kane__ the fact taht you said 'it cant be done' more or less
Alias_ ya
Same thing caught stennie for the camelpack
"huh? surely it can't be THAT hard"
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kane__ it was a *bit* harder than expected, but indeed not as impossible as suggested :) 21:30
Alias_ That's why I made the challenge self-healing :) 21:31
And said you needed to give me a patch to prevent the solution you used :)
From memory anyways
(checks)
kane__ yup, pretty much 21:32
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szbalint kane__: any link to that talk and how did you beat the module? :) 22:03
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meppl good night 23:49
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