pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by TimToady on 25 January 2008.
pugs_svn r19715 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] Grapheme: IDs use NFC 00:00
r19715 | rhr++ | guess at how nf and encoding modules work
r19715 | rhr++ | start to define bytes/codepoints/graphemes modules
r19715 | rhr++ | samebase needs to use NFD (will need to be fixed again when other NF stuff is fixed)
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pugs_svn r19716 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] 2 typos 00:20
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mncharity 00:59
lambdabot mncharity: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
mncharity @tell spinclad re stability of rb 1.9 and debian, good question. rb 1.9.0 is, having been finally released (in Dec), now vastly more stable (ie, it' 01:01
lambdabot Consider it noted.
mncharity sigh
@tell spinclad its code, bugs, and language features don't keep changing, which was indeed a pain with redsix. I'm not sure what's up with debian. On a couple of packages recently I've hit the 'debian is months out of date vis upstream', which doesn't get fixed until I or someone kick it. almost out of space: see backlog :) 01:04
lambdabot Consider it noted.
mncharity so issues include () is it buggy, and going to cause us problems (I don't know - hope not); () will we have to chase after additional language changes (perhaps, but with a fixed release 1.9.0 to work on, I don't expect it to be a bit deal); () the debian ruby 1.9 package is out of date (someone needs to poke the debian process) 01:10
it seems 1.9.1 was envisioned as a explicitly "stable" release, aimed for december, which didn't quite get there. some things do seem to be settling down. 01:11
() any other issues...? 01:12
mugwump hehe what's all this, despite widespread rumours to the contrary ruby is not perl 6! :) 01:14
mncharity mugwump: :) creating a rb 1.9 based kp6 backend. intended to be faster than the current runtimes, and thus permit moving from the current 'kp6 run on mp6', to a bootstrapped 'kp6 run on kp6'. at least for 01:19
mugwump hey that sounds cool 01:20
mncharity the front-end portion of kp6 (parsing, ast, emitting). getting the universal backend code (Pad, etc) bootstrapped would be a different exercise.
re cool, :)
like to help?
;)
pmurias: thanks for r19700 01:21
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mncharity mugwump: are there really widespread rumors that ruby is p6?!? 01:22
oh, as in p5-ng (next generation). well, it does have a bit of that. maybe p6 is ruby 3.0 ;)] 01:23
allbery_b ruby definitely has a perl-TNG vibe about it. not so much a P6 vibe
some parts of the world have given up on p6, I think 01:24
mugwump well, I think perl 6 became much more of a step forward than people thought
mncharity hmm, I think a number of factors came together to create a much longer development path than people originally anticipated. 01:26
not having an implementation to participate in an interactive language design process, for instance. 01:27
cj TimToady: alrighty... that makes sense... so the '_' metacharacter indicates end of a range? 01:29
and since 'z' is not in the range which begins with 'A', it ends after it gets to the end of the range? 01:30
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mncharity allbery_b: re given up, which has some unfortunate consequences like shortage of volunteer hours, any thoughts on what it would take to get people un-given-up and psyched again? 01:31
cj TimToady: ah, missed what you said at 1433
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allbery_b mncharity: I rarely hear about P6 outside of this channel and other directly perl.org-related stuff. (except the occasional mention of pugs wrt Haskell) 01:35
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allbery_b it might help to put around that 6.0-STD is being finalized and there are several implementations targeting it (i.e. there's a light at the end of the tunnel finally) 01:36
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mncharity hmm. ok. i've reservations about "light at the end of the tunnel", and progress notices in general, just because there's been such a history of claims of accomplishment without corresponding tangible, user visible progress. trust seems to have become somewhat frayed. 01:46
mugwump look, if I start to see even a version of the test script with a stable tag put on it, and a maintainer who will manage updates to it using the stable development process, I'd feel bathed in light 01:48
s/script/suite/
allbery_b if so then it' 01:52
s too late to do anything about p6's mindshare
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mncharity hmm, ok. it seems like there might be a period between when we are obviously unstuck (say, parrot passing at least as much of the test suite as pugs did), and assorted stableness, when there will be lots of work to do, and thus need for volunteers. 02:03
perhaps that "parrot now better than pugs was" is an interesting milestone. 02:04
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jdrake Is perl6 usable now? 02:05
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Auzon Usable for what? 02:06
lambdabot Auzon: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
jdrake Auzon, say a website.
Auzon mu.nfshost.com
lambdabot Title: Moe'uhane
Auzon That's right :)
jdrake What is that exactly? 02:07
Auzon It's my game that I've been working on
mugwump jdrake: there are several perl 6 implementations all in varying states of development
jdrake nice
Auzon It's a successor to another one that I played but ended
jdrake mugwump, are any of them what could be described as 'stable'? 02:08
mugwump nop
e
but then, I'm quite fussy about what I call stable
jdrake Stable is something that will generally not blow up in my face. 02:09
mugwump ok. I was talking about something that won't change on you over time
allbery_b note that I didn't say perl-6.0.0-STD was finalized. 02:10
jdrake Anything in the ways of oxygen all the way to neon, but not like throwing sodium in water.
allbery_b the *language* could still change (mostly clarifications or eliding features considered unnecessary for the first release) 02:11
mugwump well, pugs is pretty solid I'd say, but hard to use for web development because of the runtime
Auzon Yeah. Otherwise, I'd be using it :P
jdrake What about the runtime/
allbery_b pugs also has some bitrot
mugwump it requires haskell, limiting its userbase
allbery_b I haven't ben able to build it in months; it dislikes either my ghc or my Cabal, I'm not sure which
(I'm told 6.6.1 works but 6.8.1 is current)
Auzon hm. My webhost has GHC. Maybe it would run? 02:12
jdrake oh, that is no problem on my web host :P, our most useful configuration is written in sml and its configuration it a purely functional language all its own.
mugwump maybe. I stopped using pugs because of the usual svn breakage you get without stable development practices
jdrake Best to stick with what I know then. 02:13
mugwump if you can get mod_parrot to do the trick with a released version rakudo ... and stick to "safe" features, then you're probably OK
but there's not enough implemented yet to be very worthwhile yet imho
jdrake We don't use any mod_* languages because of security issues.
cj does mp6 know how to sprintf? 02:14
Auzon mp6: sprintf("testing %s", "sprintf");
kp6: sprintf("testing %s", "sprintf");
exp_evalbot r19716: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824be04)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e524d0)', 'HASH(0x8e5250c)') called at
..compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤ main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824be04)', 'APPLY', 'H...
mugwump jdrake: well, I don't know if anyone's done a fastcgi module for parrot yet 02:15
the only other option is the 6-on-5 stack
eg, using Perl 5 with Moose
and adding on bits and pieces as you figure them out
I haven't got the full stack working myself yet 02:16
but I haven't tried very hard. I just care about the object model and method signatures really... and things like Perl6::Junction
Also Coroutines :)
and gather 02:17
anyway, using those modules you can write in perl6 and have it compiled down to perl5 by perl5
again, I haven't used it in a while though
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pugs_svn r19717 | putter++ | [kp6-ruby] tweak instance variable initializers. 02:56
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cj kp6: sprintf("testing"); 03:32
exp_evalbot r19717: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4bd00)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤
..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4bd00)') ca...
cj kp6: printf("testing");
exp_evalbot r19717: OUTPUT[no method 'APPLY' in Class 'Undef'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4bd00)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤
..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x824bd14)', 'APPLY', 'HASH(0x8e4bd00)') ca...
cj okay... so how do I implement sprintf? 03:35
Auzon what do you need it for?
mugwump kp6: "testing".as("%10s")
exp_evalbot r19717: OUTPUT[no method 'as' in Class 'Str'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x8e4bcdc)', 'as', 'HASH(0x8e4bb74)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤
..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x8e4bcdc)', 'as', 'HASH(0x8e4bb74)') called at - l...
mugwump ratses 03:36
cj Visitor::Emit::Perl5
Auzon: I want to re-factor it
Auzon Can't help you there, sadly.
pugs_svn r19718 | putter++ | [kp6-ruby] get Match from Runtime/Perl6/Match.pm. 03:42
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mncharity hmm. so rules are class methods (methods of Grammar, not an instance of Grammar), and one never .new()s a Grammar? curious. 04:09
s/methods of Grammar/methods on Grammar/
t/kp6/42-single-rule-grammar.t another day. g'night all. & 04:11
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TimToady pugs: "testing".fmt("%10s") 05:24
exp_evalbot RESULT[\" testing"]
TimToady kp6: "testing".fmt("%10s")
exp_evalbot r19718: OUTPUT[no method 'fmt' in Class 'Str'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x8e4bcdc)', 'fmt', 'HASH(0x8e4bb74)') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤
..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x8e4bcdc)', 'fmt', 'HASH(0x8e4bb74)') called at ...
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TimToady @tell mncharity an instance of a grammar is the current parse state 05:30
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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ruoso hi 11:31
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pugs_svn r19719 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] stringify with method Str 13:58
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[particle1 where are the different contexts defined in the synopses? ack -i context returns many, many hits 15:10
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pugs_svn r19720 | ruoso++ | [smop] sm0p/Grammar.pm have the preprocessor code. 15:58
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pugs_svn r19721 | ruoso++ | [smop] breaking the definition in smaller tokens. 16:01
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TimToady [particle]: try S02:Context 16:22
[particle] thanks! 16:27
pugs_svn r19722 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] fix normalization 16:29
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[particle] TimToady: is context something the ast should know about, or is it something each op is responsible to determine? 16:31
the more i think about it, the more i think it's the ops that are responsible
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cj alrighty... I'm at microsoft at a discussion of new languages on the .NET vm. anyone have anything to add to the conversation? 16:37
moritz_ the question boils down to "how do you implement 'want'"?
cj: what has been said already?
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[particle] closure invocation defaults to void context. if it's the rvalue of an assign or bind op, check the lvalue's context 16:38
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[particle] ...and set the context for the closure's return context 16:38
so closures need a 'wanted context' attribute that's set at invocation time 16:39
pugs_svn r19723 | ruoso++ | [smop] now I think the preprocessor is on its way... it is a big replacing grammar. 16:40
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cj moritz_: greetings. the presentations have not started. 16:41
I asked about perl6 and I've gotten mixed results. Some folks say they look forward to when it runs on the vm, other say they don't like perl in general. 16:42
nobody's said they will actively block any adoption, though :)
moritz_ cj: you can tell them that p6 is much more structured than p5 ;)
PerlJam Who is working to run p6 on .net? 16:43
[particle] nobody
moritz_ cj: and I think the idea is really great, if you can find a way to implement continuations efficiently on top of the vm
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Mindtilt i need a good perl6 tutorial.... only found garbadge on the internet... can someone link me a decent one? 16:47
cj moritz_: step 1: implement, step 2: implement correctly, step 3: implement efficiently
[particle] mindtilt: the internet is broken
cj Mindtilt: do you want to read a spec or a walk-through?
PerlJam Mindtilt: I don't think there are any good perl 6 tutorials yet. 16:48
[particle] Mindtilt: try www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/ for a start
Mindtilt i want to migrate a perl5 procedural system to a perl6 oo
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 / Perl 6
[particle] Mindtilt: perl 6 is still under active development, there are no complete implementations yet 16:49
there are many partial implementations, and one or more may meet your needs
Mindtilt hum... didnt know that... but ill take a look in that link.... 16:50
moritz_ Mindtilt: don't do that yet ;)
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pugs_svn r19724 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] fixes for the previous fixes 16:54
PerlJam Mindtilt: if you want to put the parrot-based perl6 in production, that would be fine by me :)
PerlJam wonders how many early adopters we can actually get ;) 16:56
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dlocaus moritz_: ping? 17:16
@seen moritz_
lambdabot moritz_ is in #perl6. I last heard moritz_ speak 26m 9s ago.
dlocaus @seen fglock
lambdabot I haven't seen fglock.
dlocaus @seen purmas 17:17
lambdabot I haven't seen purmas.
dlocaus [particle]: ping
obra: ping?
moritz_ dlocaus: pong
obra pong
lambdabot obra: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
obra What can I do for you?
dlocaus soryr, obra, I didn't think moritz_ was here. 17:18
moritz_: Do you think fglock would mind if I put him down as a contact for KP6?
moritz_ where?
dlocaus I need to explain 3 months of my time on the KP6 project on my cv.
I've checked here Sunday & Monday (today) but he hasn't been here.
moritz_ I'd think that's ok
dlocaus moritz_: ok, ty. 17:19
I'm off to interview ;)
moritz_ dlocaus: if you want to be sure, send him a mail
dlocaus: good luck!
obra dlocaus: I bet he wouldn't mind, but yeah. Ask first ;)
dlocaus ok, I'll check with him later.. (after the interview... omg :(
obra always ask references first. I've seen someone learn that the hard way
dlocaus: just say "references available upon request" unless they've already asked 17:20
dlocaus obra: yeah, but this came on rather sudden...
Its part of the job application.
I'll try and avoid turning it in, until later, but ...
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dlocaus Ok, well thanks for the help I have to head on out. 17:20
ttyl
obra good luck 17:21
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[particle] talk about last minute prep! 17:22
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cj notes here: wiki.colliertech.org/index.php?titl...g.NET_2008 17:30
lambdabot Title: Lang.NET 2008 - Wiki
obra cj: how was it? 17:33
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obra I guess "is" 17:33
pugs_svn r19725 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] Str: STORE, FETCH, infix:<~>, infix:<eq> 17:47
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cj closures in C# 3.0. yay 18:02
moritz_ wow
cj which means that the MS CLR supports them natively. 18:03
obra: still going on. taking notes in realtime. 18:04
moritz_ cj: the current implementation? or a future one?
obra cj: cool
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pugs_svn r19726 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] chr and ord 18:30
cj type inference is also in C# 3.0 18:34
var foo = new System.Foo.Bar();
moritz_: MS's current implementation.
moritz_: Mono's not there quite yet :)
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cj looks like there's currently no closure support outside of the context of lambda expressions 18:44
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pugs_svn r19727 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] clarify graph<->code<->byte conversion rules, clean up buf handling 18:57
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pugs_svn r19728 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] fix compose_graph 19:23
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cj [email@hidden.address] <- dynamic language runtime... 20:02
AFAIK, the DLR specs have not been published as the CLI has been...
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cj so... the DLR runs on Mono 20:24
Closures are implemented in the DLR
Continuations are the only thing that looks iffy... we may need to implement that as a DLR add-on 20:25
transactional memory is also an open question
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pugs_svn r19729 | rhr++ | [Unicode.pm] move UCD stuff into UCD.pm 20:46
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dlocaus @seen fglock 21:02
lambdabot I haven't seen fglock.
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pugs_svn r19730 | cosimo++ | [t] Converted pod markers to pod6 21:18
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pugs_svn r19731 | cosimo++ | [t/spec] Converted pod markers in pod6 21:25
r19732 | cosimo++ | [t] Converted pod markers to pod6 21:36
cj dlocaus: he answered an email yesterday 22:02
dlocaus cj: ok, thank you!
cj yar. 22:04
dlocaus yar? ;)
pugs_svn r19733 | cosimo++ | [t/spec] Convert pod markers to pod6 22:06
r19734 | cosimo++ | [t/spec] Convert pod markers to pod6 22:07
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pugs_svn r19735 | cosimo++ | [t/spec] Converted pod markers to pod6 22:15
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mofino ahh look at all those commits, how exciting 22:28
Auzon yep. 16 in the past 8.5 hours :). 22:29
smop: say "hi"
moritz_ Auzon: no smop ;)
Auzon :(
moritz_ rakudo: say "hi";
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hiā¤]
Auzon and pugs, of course. kp6 is the third that I know of 22:30
mofino I tried reading some of the perl6 technical stuff...
my god...
even that SMOP stuff... so complex
Auzon What stuff, out of curiosity?
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Auzon bah. 22:31
mofino I can't remember, I just saw intimidating words and ran away
Auzon Heh.
mofino it gives me the impression that perl6 will be technically awesome
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moritz_ Auzon: mostly test suite refactoriing 22:32
Auzon: and a few Unicode fiddlings
pugs_svn r19736 | cosimo++ | [t/spec] Possibly converted all remaining pod markers to pod6 22:33
Auzon Regarding the test suites, do you need tests for the combinations of sprintf? I may have some tuits this weekend, and it'd be a decent way for me to get started with writing tests.
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moritz_ looking... 22:33
I found about a dozen sprintf tests in the test suite 22:34
that's not enough ;)
but bare in mind that perl 6 sprintf != C sprintf
Auzon Does it resemble Perl 5 sprintf? 22:35
[particle] S29?
Auzon yes. 22:36
[particle] gvim docs/Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod +1322
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cosimo_ hi all. I have finished to convert all t/spec pod markers. 22:37
Now I can attack the remaining non "spec" tests ... :-)
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[particle] cosimo_++ # keep it up! 22:38
cosimo_ I'm also trying to execute the t/spec tests with rakudo 22:39
but it's not easy for me to understand *why* tests fail...
[particle] yep, i'm trying to reduce the parsefails by adding skip markers
cosimo_ yes, I saw that
moritz_ cosimo_: if you want some easy work, the regex tests should be easy to refactor
[particle] for now, just add skip markers for everything that fails on rakudo 22:40
moritz_ cosimo_: if you want hard stuff, I'll do some regex test refactoring, but it will not be as fast as you do it ;)
[particle] i'm trying to add some things to rakudo that will allow more statements to parse
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[particle] msg TimToady it seems 'my $x' isn't found in STD.pm. 'my $x = 3' is fine, but variable_decl is missing a ? after the last non-capturing group 22:44
moritz_ [particle]: just patch it ;)
[particle] oh, right, it's in the pugs repo. duh! 22:45
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[particle] moritz_++ 22:47
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pugs_svn r19737 | particle++ | [STD] allow 'my $x' as well as 'my $x = 3' by adding a missing a ? after the last non-capturing group in the variable_decl token 22:47
[particle] is trying to add traits to rakudo 22:49
moritz_ [particle]++ # rakudo hacking 22:50
is anybody motivated to get a bot here that prints rakudo commit messages? 22:51
[particle] should be easy enough to do from feather. maybe call it rakudo_svn 22:52
i think it'd be helpful for rakudo hackers here
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Juerd Feather has a separate virtual machines for evalbots 22:59
I'd be more than happy to give you an account there 23:00
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Juerd You can get root access on it so you can customize it to your needs. 23:00
I only ask from you that you make it reboot-proof :) 23:01
(and invite evalbot-makers to reboot the machine to make sure.)
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[particle] i'd rather not have root privs on any box, since the last time i used linux regularly was 2003 23:02
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[particle] Juerd: btw this is an svnbot, not evalbot, but i think that the vm you're talking about would work fine 23:03
Juerd Oh, svnbots can just go on normal feather 23:05
They don't need special security care :)
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moritz_ tries a hand made svn bot 23:11
rakudo_svn r25302 | particle++ | [rakudo] add some more dirs to spectest target
r25303 | particle++ | [rakudo] add 'int' sub
r25304 | particle++ | [rakudo] fix skip($count, $reason) in Test.pm
r25316 | particle++ | [rakudo] add missing scope declarators to parser, and better error handling to emitter
[particle] moritz_: we've got one in the pugs repo 23:12
moritz_ [particle]: that perl 6 based?
[particle] yep
moritz_ It's always a pain to get working
[particle] isn't pugs_svn running it? svnbotl on #parrot is
moritz_ yes 23:13
[particle] ok. whatever works, i just want the bot :)
moritz_ now I have to teach the irclogs that r\d+ from rakudo_svn point to the parrot repo
but that has to wait until tomorrow
sleep &
[particle] seems you have it working, so moritz_++
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alester hey particle, can you please test out the new ack some time? 23:35
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[particle] alester: it seems to hang for me on t/ack-1.t. i'll look into it as soon as i can switch contexts 23:38
alester kthx
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rakudo_svn r25319 | particle++ | [rakudo] add traits 23:46
r25319 | particle++ | ~ traits now working during variable declaration
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