pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by TimToady on 25 January 2008.
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Tene pugs: @a = gather { for 1..10 { take $_ * 2 } }; say @a; 01:09
p6eval OUTPUT[*** ␤ Unexpected " ="␤ expecting "::"␤ Variable "@a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤ at /tmp/dkcGvfLLXY line 1, column 3␤]
Tene pugs: my @a = gather { for 1..10 { take $_ * 2 } }; say @a;
p6eval OUTPUT[2468101214161820␤]
pugs_svnbot r20981 | diakopter++ | [yap6] fixes from 'use diagnostics' 01:15
r20982 | diakopter++ | [yap6]
r20982 | diakopter++ | * bin/test doesn't need 'use diagnostics' committed...
diakopter read today about scattered context grammars (for context-sensitive languages) and how they enable semantic analysis (and type checking) specified directly in the grammar to be performed at parse time. interesting stuff. 01:25
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scrottie hey, alester, why did you delete www.flickr.com/photos/petdance/2588945466/ ? 01:36
lambdabot Title: Flickr: Image
scrottie Am I really that ugly?
alester what was it?
scrottie me!
you deleted me, you bastard!
alester I did?
I'm sorry, I had to prune down to 200 total 01:37
where were you?
scrottie vanishes in a puff of filesystem block reallocation.
alester pool table?
scrottie bowling, probably
lichtkind wknight8111: sorry i ment leave
do have leave an impact to gather too?
alester Black shirt, glasses? 01:38
10 pound blue ball?
scrottie yeah. red hair, lots of forehead.
alester what's yr email
scrottie my god... you know, I picked out two blue balls just so I could make jokes about it. but I think I've used them all up.
[email@hidden.address]
if you're going to take lots of good pics (of my good side) at YAPC, I think we could chip in for a paid flickr account. assuming that's the reason you had to prune. 01:39
alester Flickr only lets me have 200 photos in all
yes, that's why
scrottie even if you give them money?
taking photos is a public service and should be encouraged.
alester No, I just didn't hve a pro account
Next time I'll put 'em on Picasa.
scrottie I'll try to remember to mention this again come next year. 01:40
or that =)
alester OK, exporting 113 photos to Picasa. 01:43
pugs_svnbot r20983 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] fixed eager_hyper.t to use gather/take as suggested by moritz++ (removed 2 tests; only 6 tests in this file now) 01:49
scrottie thanks for the copy of the pic. and that's not just any black shirt... that's my SNOBOL 4 shirt!
alester scrottie: picasaweb.google.com/petdance/YAPCN...TheRawFeed 02:05
lambdabot Title: Picasa Web Albums - Andy - YAPC::NA 2008...
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diakopter fiddles with Devel::Pointer::PP 02:14
... and is delighted to discover [the technique in] Sub::Become 02:23
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alester perlbuzz.com/2008/06/yapcna-2008-ph...rapup.html 02:59
lambdabot Title: YAPC::NA 2008 photo wrap-up - Perl Buzz
alester hey!
diakopter!
I don't remember what you look like!
But I DO remember you sat to my right at lunch!
Isn't it funny how my brane works? 03:00
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SamB alester: but do you remember what he ate? 03:06
alester I think it was a sandwich on some sort of white hearty bread.
ingy scrottie: hola 03:12
Alias_ o/ 03:13
ingy hi Alias_
s1n diakopter: where's the smoke tests in the pugs repo? 03:16
ingy & 03:17
Auzon s1n: pugs/t contains the Perl 6 test suite if that's what you mean 03:19
s1n Auzon: that's what i thought, it just wasn't really documented as such
diakopter s1n: and there are quite a few ways to smoke the test suite... each implementation does it uniquely
meaning Test.pm 03:20
Auzon Note that we're trying to move most of pugs/t to pugs/t/spec
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diakopter alester: yeah 03:20
s1n okay, well i just want to get a devenv setup tonight
i checked out the pugs code, i have parrot building, what's the most advisable way of testing / modifying / adding a test to the suite? 03:21
since i did a make spectest in the rakudo directory, it checked out the tests, i should be able to make changes / commits in the "t/spec" folder, right? 03:23
diakopter s1n: yes. Try to follow the existing pattern of tagging with a region of the relevant synopsis. if you make an error in your commit, I'm sure someone will notice and correct it :) 03:24
s1n well, i may pastebot a patch or two until i get the hang of it
every company and project has their way of developing, so i'd rather just get a feel for it first :) 03:25
diakopter s1n: but also make sure to get familiar with the t/everything-but-spec so that you don't duplicate what's waiting-to-be-migrated-to-spec
s1n diakopter: gotcha 03:26
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diakopter Auzon: any comments/corrections to what I said? 03:26
Auzon s1n: sure you can pastebot, but we're very forgiving in pugs/
Um... get and use 'ack' 03:27
s1n diakopter: again, since i'm new to this codebase, i'll take my time learning it's ins and outs, so i'll try not to commit anything without someone checking it over for a few commits
i'm a perfectionist, i'd rather do it right or not do it at all
Auzon I guess you can use egrep if you know its patterns better than the Perl ones
s1n Auzon: i won't waste my time grepping through things, i'll see if i can get some useful ctags built 03:28
diakopter s1n: that's a little difficult when the line between perfect and pluperfect is pretty fuzzy (around here)
Auzon ctags?
s1n Auzon: google it, it can save you time :)
i don't write any typed language code without it, scripting is a little different (have to kinda nudge it along) 03:29
diakopter: well, yeah i realize i won't be perfect, but i want what i do first to seem that way, until i improve and what i did yesterday suddenly looks like crap :) 03:30
diakopter s/pluperfect/something else/
DietCoke parrot has tags targets. 03:31
s1n DietCoke: yeah but does perl6 / rakudo? 03:32
parrot is more strongly typed
diakopter heh
s1n alright guys, since i'm ready to start playing with it, ima call it a night. i'll dink with some of the tests and see if i can get ctags built 03:33
diakopter good luck
diakopter declares #perl6,p6l,@Larry to be autopoietic 03:34
alester: where's that mailing list you mentioned 03:38
alester rethinking-cpan 03:39
gogole it
diakopter good thing gogole goes to google 03:40
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diakopter alester: is it intentional that perl101 is perl5 to binary 03:42
alester ?
diakopter perl101.org
never mind
alester I don't understand what you mean "perl5 to binary" 03:43
Auzon 5 in binary is 101 03:44
alester ah 03:48
diakopter someone should make Acme::Godel, a source filter that gives you the Godel number of the source code (or maybe even the bytecode) of the script that uses it. just gets the nth prime where n is the number represented by the program's something-endian source/bytecode representation. okay, so probably it would never terminate on most inputs....
Auzon s1n: I don't see how ctags would help me figure out, for instance, if ^..^ was tested. Where running "ack '^\.\.^' t/" would locate them if they exist
alester because they're prefound, Auzon.
And you can then do stuff like "vim -t tag"
SamB diakopter: what does a prime number have to do with it? 03:49
diakopter SamB: isn't that how Godel represented the symbols in the formal languages he was analyzing?
SamB diakopter: there was no prime number 03:50
Auzon alester: I ran ctags on one of my Perl 5 projects, and it just found the subroutine names and package names. Did I miss something?
diakopter I can't type the o with dots
SamB: oh
alester Look at how ack or WWW-Mechanize do it.
I have a "make tags" target in most of my projects.
SamB diakopter: just interpret the source file as a little-endian number ...
diakopter actually it probably would terminate if you split it at bytes... you'd only need up through the 256th prime (1619). (multiply all the primes together to get the Godel number) 03:54
of course
that's wrong, b/c it doesn't preserve order of the bytes
SamB yeah -- just interpreting it as a radix-256 little-endian number is the thing to do 03:55
or ... well, something like that
need to indicate termination somehow I guess 03:56
well, that's easy if your programming language doesn't use NULs in source ;-)
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diakopter TimToady: SamB requests token nullator:sym<�> { <sym> <?before <sym>> } 04:04
SamB what??? 04:05
diakopter ;)
SamB that isn't a NUL!
diakopter oh :/ 04:06
SamB that's a U+FFFD
diakopter silly irssi
irc probably can't receive it anyway
SamB probably it would be misinterpreted as a CTCP request
scrottie Auzon, I seem to recall a "perl tags" package on CPAN. It outputs files in the ctags format but is a bit smarter about parsing Perl. Hrm. PPI... hmm. 05:09
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Alias_ Alas, PPI is too slow for most purposes 05:55
Or at least, too slow for time-critical purposes 05:57
scrottie well, building the tags database is an off-line type activity
I guess ctags in general was made for a generally static codebase, not this agile crap the kids are smoking.
Alias_ yup 06:10
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pugs_svnbot r20984 | moritz++ | [spec] fixed eager_hyper.t - $counter++; needs to go before take $_; to get 09:30
r20984 | moritz++ | the expected results
r20985 | moritz++ | [t] re-formulated rand() tasks in TASKS 09:33
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moritz_ is Complex intended to be an immutable value? 09:46
ah, yes. Found the answer 09:47
is anybody eager to discuss S29? 09:51
our Seq multi method polar (Complex: $nim) is export
shouldn't that be ... polar (Complex $nim:) ?
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scrottie slams a mug of mead and then proceeds to look incredulous. 10:01
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pugs_svnbot r20986 | moritz++ | [util/perl6.vim] updated builtin types to closer match S02 10:05
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moritz_ rakudo: say pi / 2 10:32
p6eval rakudo r28673 OUTPUT[1.5708␤] 10:33
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moritz_ in @a[*-1], how is *-1 passed to postcircumfix:<[ ]> ? 10:54
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spinclad moritz_: re polar (Complex: $nim), i second you. 11:05
moritz_ spinclad: thanks for backlogging and answering 11:07
pugs_svnbot r20987 | moritz++ | [S29] fixed signatur for polar()
spinclad re *-1, as ... an Int? 'whatever less one': the day before Forever
moritz_ that doesn't make sense 11:08
so I somehow think it should be passed as a pair (Whatever, -1) or some such
spinclad (ie, as another special value of Int, like Int or (for Num) Inf or Nan) 11:09
moritz_ -1 but Whatever?
spinclad but i'm not thrilled about multiplying entities in a basic class like Int 11:10
moritz_ yes, that smells
spinclad if it were explicitly algebraic, so you could have 'x + 2', then saying it's simply '* - 1' would make sense to me 11:11
is (*-1) + 1 == * ? 11:12
so i dunno 11:13
moritz_ I don't think you can do meaningful arithmetic with *
just like you can't with Inf
spinclad oh, (Inf - 1) + 1 == Inf, it's just that Inf - 1 == Inf too :) 11:14
and Inf - Inf should be NaN 11:15
moritz_ standard mathematical notation doesn't even allow you to write Inf + 1 in an expression
spinclad perhaps because it simplifies? 11:16
omega + 1, otoh, is quite standard
(omega: first ordinal infinity)
moritz_ yes 11:17
but people who know about omega usually know the common mistakes with Inf ;)
btw it's so nice to chat with people who have a bit of mathematical background 11:18
it doesn't make me feel I'm an isolated über-geek ;)
spinclad here too
well, not isolated at least; and sometimes it's the right tool for the thinking
moritz_ (although I admit that (being a physicist) my approach to mathematics is sometimes overly pgramatic - "how cares if this integral is defined, as long as Mathematica can calculate its result" ;-) 11:20
s/how/who/
anyway, to return to the initial question, I think that pairs aren't a bad idea - I just haven't found it in the specs 11:21
or is *-1 just frobbed into *, -1 ? 11:22
spinclad (i suspect mine may be overly abstract-nonsense - who cares about particular values, they're just maps from 1 to a target category) 11:24
looking at *-1 algebraicly, representing it as Poly(*, [1,-1]) suggests itself; Pair(*,-1) could work too. but i don't see a deciding thought here. 11:27
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spinclad i guess: an implementation chooses a canonical rep. could be C< { infix:<->(*, 1) } > (a closure node) if it likes... 11:30
anyway, back to bed... got up after half a night to meditate and backlog &
moritz_ closures are no good idea IMHO because they are harder to introspect than ordinary data structures 11:32
sleep well
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SamB moritz_: eh? 11:33
harder to introspect?
moritz_ SamB: in this context, if you have a closure $c, how do you determine if it's { infix:<->(*,1) } or { infix:<->(*,2) } ? 11:34
SamB hmm. 11:35
well, I don't know what either of those are... so I dunno.
spinclad (represent them as lambda-expressions, as combinator apply-trees; canonicalize by left-most, innermost reduction (iirc))
SamB spinclad: innermost? 11:36
I was under the impression that you repeatedly reduced the left-most redex
which might have redexes as sub-expressions 11:37
and would not be the subexpression of any other redex
since I'd be measuring from the beginning 11:38
going for the inner-most is STRICT evaluation...
spinclad sounds right... leftmost, lazymost reduction
SamB and normalizes less strongly
spinclad innermost may evaluate something unneeded, which may not halt... 11:39
SamB you know what's really hard to introspect?
spinclad so half a thought gives a better answer 11:40
all right, what? # 'yo mama!' 11:41
SamB ... a value who's type you are polymorphic in
spinclad though if the type is constrained with a 'does Introspect' interface... 11:43
but if not, yeah
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diakopter ponders call-by-need as applied to the top-level (statement list) and "rollup" activities necessary when the grammar is adapted/swapped. 12:29
if each statement is viewed as an argument to a call of the program function... 12:30
then 'program' evaluates its arguments successively, feeding the state changes left-to-right, so one of the arguments to each successive statment is the resulting state from the prior statement 12:32
... unless statements are to be lazily evaluated as well...! 12:33
any thoughts from anyone? 12:34
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diakopter so if the 'program' is to be compiled, the parser/interpreter (as well as the original grammar's source!) itself would need to be embedded in the program if any argument's state-flow dependencies is non-deterministic input. 12:39
continuing along those lines, when parsing, the evaluation plan can be built by recursive calls to the parser with the input and the parser-set itself as the arguments to the parser. 12:42
masak rakudo: sub say { } say "is this printed?"
p6eval rakudo r28673 OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "say \"is th"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
masak rakudo: sub say { }; say "is this printed?"
p6eval rakudo r28673 RESULT[Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 38 (EVAL_13:18)␤
diakopter that would push parsing into call-by-need as well. 12:43
rakudo: sub say { sub say1 { 3.say; $_.say; }; say1(4); }; 5.say; 12:47
p6eval rakudo r28673 OUTPUT[maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'say' pc 100 (EVAL_11:48)␤
diakopter moritz_: I appear to have sent a non-terminating program to rakudo with an infinite recursion it couldn't detect: ... can you kill it? 12:51
Auzon: or you
moritz_ diakopter: sure
evalbot control restart
# just a different try
diakopter heh 12:52
apparently it's not listening
moritz_ sh: line 1: 6311 CPU time limit exceeded PUGS_SAFEMODE=true ./pugs /tmp/uOyoSWT3xI >>/tmp/7pc2xEY7Ax 2>&1
why doesn't that work for rakudo?
diakopter moritz_: :) not sure
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moritz_ BSD::Resource only checks CPU time, not run time 12:53
maybe I should also limit runtime
diakopter apparently rakudo can detect *direct* infinite recursion, but not indirect.
badrakudo: sub say2 { sub say1 { 3.say2; }; say1(4); }; 5.say2; 12:54
pugs: sub say2 { sub say1 { 3.say2; }; say1(4); }; 5.say2; 12:55
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diakopter hm. I guess pugs doesn't detect it either 12:55
p6eval No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
diakopter well pugs eventually hits some kind of limit :) 12:56
kp6: sub say2 { sub say1 { 3.say2; }; say1(4); }; 5.say2;
p6eval kp6 r20987: OUTPUT[no method 'say2' in Class 'Int'␤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345␤
diakopter elf: sub say2 { sub say1 { 3.say2; }; say1(4); }; 5.say2; 12:57
p6eval OUTPUT[Can't call method "say2" without a package or object reference at (eval 119) line 5.␤ at ./elf_f line 3854␤]
moritz_ those two don't implement method fallback
diakopter oh
kp6: sub say2 { sub say1 { say2; }; say1; }; say2; 12:58
p6eval kp6 r20987: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
diakopter oh wait 12:59
the earlier non-terminating input - I sent it to perl6:, not just rakudo: oops. I guess I should try just rakudo 13:00
rakudo: sub say2 { sub say1 { say2; }; say1; }; say2; 13:01
p6eval rakudo r28673 OUTPUT[maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'say2' pc 88 (EVAL_11:44)␤
moritz_ no stale perl 6 procoess whatsoever on $server
diakopter moritz_: yeah; it was only pugs that froze earlier
er, boiled.
moritz_ $state_change ;) 13:03
diakopter sublimated
plasmified
moritz_ $change_of_state_of_aggregation
diakopter fissioned 13:04
moritz_ cold fissioned? ;)
diakopter I guess there should be a way to tell rakudo what its recursion depth limit should be, when you want it to be quite deep. 13:05
and preferably not at rakudo-compile-time
moritz_ yes, but IMHO that's none of the iimportant features to implement atm 13:06
diakopter but if the recursion limit is less than a hundred...
moritz_ is it?
diakopter I don't know
moritz_ then don't worry until you hit that barrier 13:07
diakopter commute&
pugs_svnbot r20988 | diakopter++ | [yap6] disregard; work-in-progress. 13:08
pmichaud (*-1 from backscroll): iirc, then *-1 becomes a special value of "whatever" that gets passed to postcircumfix:<[ ]> 13:25
it was described around a year ago on p6l
but it's still just a single argument -- it just happens to be an "interesting" value of whatever (similar to how we can have "interesting" values of undef :-)
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diakopter reconfigured yap6's parser builders to call-by-need 13:50
along the way found a non-working memoization, and fixed it, yielding who-knows-how-much efficiency improvement 13:51
when inside several layers of nested closures, calls to memoize() aren't as reliable... 13:52
inlining my own memoization works a lot better :)
moritz_ can't find the thread, searching again
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moritz_ techfaux.com/2008/06/17/peta-target...-protests/ # OMFG 14:28
lambdabot Title: TechFaux.com - Beta 􏿽xBB Blog Archive 􏿽xBB PETA Targets Computer Programmers With Stri ..., tinyurl.com/6klbg2 14:29
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pugs_svnbot r20989 | rhr++ | Add docs/p6types - a description of specced p6 roles, classes, and methods from the synopses 14:31
r20989 | rhr++ | it's meant to be sort of a roadmap for p6 library/Prelude development
r20989 | rhr++ | currently covers S02 and S03 (I ran out of time and tuits), please add more!
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pmichaud I can't find the p6l thread about whatever * either (other than the one that introduced the concept), so maybe I'm misremembering. 14:34
moritz_ ok, I'll compose a mail to the list later
pmichaud I do recall hearing from @Larry that *-2 was passed as "whatever with an offset" 14:35
and that it's then evaluated in context
diakopter pmichaud: tinyurl.com/4hcbsk 14:36
lambdabot Title: Question on your last change to S02 - perl.perl6.language | Google Groups
pmichaud diakopter++ # thanks, found it 14:37
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moritz_ diakopter++ indeed 14:38
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moritz_ pugs: my @a = 1, 2, 3; if @a -> $b { say $b.perl } 14:52
p6eval OUTPUT[*** Cannot bind to non-existing variable: "$b"␤ at /tmp/99rBB5Nnqx line 1, column 1␤]
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; if @a -> $b { say $b.perl }
p6eval rakudo r28675 OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "-> $b { sa"␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE::Util;die' pc 120 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:82)␤
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rakudo_svn r28676 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: 14:56
r28676 | pmichaud++ | * Update spectest-progress.csv
r28676 | pmichaud++ | * 66 files, 849 passing tests
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pugs_svnbot r20990 | rhr++ | [spec] S29-str/uc.t - ?\195?\159 -> SS is correct by Unicode 5.1.0 15:19
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TimToady well, it's possible that the semantic type of * is "Equation with scalar unknown", while the type of ** is "Equation with list unknown" 15:28
or maybe slice unknown
masak TimToady: what should happen if I did `sub say { ... }` in my code?
TimToady an only sub should hide the built-in 15:29
masak ok
TimToady well, if it's "my sub"
masak and otherwise?
TimToady not clear for a package sub
but I think that it should also probably hide
masak so why the 'my'?
TimToady hides in a tighter scope 15:30
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TimToady well, might be tighter or looser 15:30
packages being independent of lexical scopes
but subs defined in current package should probably be considered a scope between prelude scope and file scope 15:31
if "prelude" scope is considered a lexical scope outside file scope
that is, when searching for sub "foo", look outward in lexical scopes through file scope, then package scope, then prelude scope 15:32
on *-1, my feeling is that it should probably be a separate type for multi dispatch purposes, neither Int nor Whatever 15:35
so if there's a Relative or Unknown or Equation type, then a sig based on Whatever can reject it based on type 15:36
pmichaud that makes sense
TimToady so you get a mismatch if you say "foo" x *-1
pmichaud I was also wondering about things like */2
which aren't simply linear offsets 15:37
TimToady that would be legal under an equational view
pmichaud agreed.
TimToady I believe Range objects are required to perform similar transformations
so (1..10) + 5 is 6..15, etc 15:38
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TimToady but Ranges don't usually have to do it lazily, as far as I can tell 15:39
it's also not clear how to handle range tests when the range goes non-linear 15:40
vixey pugs: (-2..2) ** 2
p6eval RESULT[25/1]
TimToady pugs doesn't know ranges
pugs: (-2,-1,0,1,2)**2
p6eval RESULT[25/1]
TimToady pugs: 5**2
p6eval RESULT[25/1]
vixey would maybe (-2..2) ** 2 = (0..2) & (0..2) ?
TimToady I don't do higher math :) 15:41
moritz_ I hope you don't rely on the method dispatcher to solve algebraic equations ;) 15:42
TimToady no, but the method dispatcher can hopefully detect the *need* for algebraic reasoning 15:43
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TimToady and some of these constructs could be viewed as parametric types, I suppose 15:44
but I don't plan to solve the (-2..2)**2 problem for 6.0.0 15:45
moritz_ I don't see an intuitie solution for it
(perhaps other than constructing a two-dimensional range, against which you can match lists of two items) 15:46
TimToady though a Whatever that transforms Fahrenheit to Celsius is probably workable :)
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TimToady there's doubtless some deep connection with coercions in here too 15:47
and maybe with dimensional analysis 15:48
moritz_ "dimensional analysis" sounds scary ;) 15:51
but actually it's quite nice they way it's used in physics
TimToady indeed 15:52
moritz_ one of our teachers finished early with what he had to teach us, and then spent two hours teaching us d.a. 15:53
it's amazing what you can derive with it
rhr if you allow arithmetic with * and **, how do you parse ******** or * ** * * ** ** * ** ** * * ? 15:58
TimToady at some point you should use real functions :) 16:01
rhr no doubt :)
TimToady * is just the "what it is" function :)
and ** is the "what they are" function 16:02
or maybe I should say the "whatever it is" function
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TimToady so maybe the type of * is really Code[:($)] or some such, and ** is Code[:(*@@)] 16:06
and the value of * is really sub ($x) { $x }, the identity function 16:07
or -> $x { $x } in lambda-ese
pmichaud rhr: parsing * ** * * ** ** * ** ** * * is just { say "Whatever!" } :-P 16:08
or perhaps that should be { .panic("Whatever!") }
TimToady actually, that fails very early with "two terms in a row"
16:10 kanru left
TimToady but if that is the type of *, then we ought to be able to write "foo" x -> $x { $x } to mean the same thing, and I'm not sure that's a good idea 16:10
16:10 kanru joined
TimToady so I think I still would like Whatever to be the identity function, and the other functions be a type that is easily dispatched elsewhere 16:11
since we know that there's not much point in calling the function when it's the identity function
16:13 armagad joined
TimToady so maybe Whatever is a subtype of Transform that happens to be identity 16:13
rhr Transform is Code[:($ --> $)] or some such? 16:14
16:15 meppl left
TimToady nodnod 16:19
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pugs_svnbot r20991 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] Added more tests to eager_hyper.t to check that counting the elements in the iterator completes it. (added 2 tests). 17:29
Auzon perl6: say "{}" 17:48
p6eval kp6 r20991: OUTPUT[{}␤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[␤]
..rakudo r28677: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: 'print' pc 9875 (src/gen_builtins.pir:6483)␤
..elf r20991: OUTPUT[{}␤]
DietCoke elf? 17:50
17:54 Jedai joined 17:57 wknight8111 joined
Auzon elf! 17:58
It's primarily mncharity's project to write a P6 compiler written in P6 that runs on P5 and does AST things using STD_red. 17:59
DietCoke elf is primarily mncharity's project to write a P6 compiler written in P6 that runs on P5 and does AST things using STD_red.
(danke, feeding the bot if there's one) 18:00
TimToady no purl here
18:00 masak left
DietCoke elf? 18:00
Auzon perlbot: help
DietCoke not even a stupidbot. ah well.
perlbot (fact) : tell (who) about (what) : (what) > (who) : learn (what) as (info) : relearn (fact) as (info) : phone (phone #) : shorten (url) : shorten it : search (keyword) : cpan (mod) : docs (mod) : perldoc -f (func) : jargon (term) : math (expr): fortune : flip : host (type) (record) : rot13 (text) : roll (die) : tempconv (temp) : scramble (foo) : 8ball (question) : slap (who) : diss (who) : top/bottom (num) karma : geoip (ip)
TimToady diss TimToady 18:01
perlbot: diss TimToady
perlbot TimToady is my little bitch.
pmichaud pugs: sub foo() { }; say foo().WHAT;
p6eval OUTPUT[Scalar␤]
pmichaud hrm. 18:02
Auzon perlbot: slap perlbot
perlbot slaps perlbot around a bit with a large trout
Auzon How useful
diakopter perlbot: 8ball Xmas?
perlbot Magic 8ball says: Yes
TimToady should probably be returning Object, or something equally undeffigeneric
pmichaud Object? Failure? Whatever? 18:03
TimToady not Whatever, that's only for users to use
pmichaud I can have it return Object.
TimToady in Soviet Perl, Whatever asks *you* to dwim
diakopter perlbot: diss perlbot 18:04
perlbot OMG perlbot sucks.
TimToady well, Object is generic undef
pugs: say undef.WHAT
p6eval OUTPUT[Scalar␤]
pmichaud by Object do you mean the protoobject for Object ? 18:05
TimToady Scalar is not quite right, since undef shouldn't be considered a container
pmichaud or an instance of Object (besides the protoobject)?
TimToady the protoobject
pmichaud okay
works very well for me
TimToady an instance of it wouldn't be undefined, presumably
though Object may well refuse to instantiate... 18:06
on the other hand, Object.new could just be the empty defined object
pugs: say Object.defined 18:07
p6eval OUTPUT[␤]
pmichaud should Object be the return value for any routine that doesn't explicitly provide one somehow?
TimToady pugs: say Object.new.defined
p6eval OUTPUT[1␤]
TimToady heh
hmm, well, bare return returns () or some such, so maybe item () returns Object 18:08
seems a bit harsh to call it a Failure
pmichaud S02:3175 sez: Note that if you could 18:09
instantiate an C<Object> it would be considered defined, and thus true.
(It is not clear that this is allowed, however.)
TimToady clear specs++ :)
pmichaud currently in rakudo item() is returning an empty Array.
(just worked out that way -- I can change it to whatever else.)
having item() return Object makes sense, though.
TimToady well, something to be said for that view too, except you wouldn't expect item() to be defined, really 18:10
and I think expecting Void context and returning nothing should result in something undefined if you're not really in Void context 18:11
pmichaud agreed.
TimToady but I'd also like to have a variety of undef that interpolates () into list context, and Object doesn't quite seem to be it 18:12
pmichaud could Object.list() return an empty list if the invocant is undefined? 18:13
TimToady so possibly item() is just (), in a Capturely way rather than an Arrayly way
we could make @(Object) return a null list 18:14
not sure what the ramifications of that would be, though
pmichaud otoh, if I have sub foo() { return; } and then my $x = foo(); perhaps $x should be some sort of Failure object? 18:15
TimToady return is already defined to return a Capture, so maybe item(Capture) returns Capture if the item slot is missing? <scratches head>
pmichaud which would be different from having return (); 18:16
TimToady maybe, if a Capture naturally, er, captures that info. wouldn't want to force it too much though for efficiency reasons 18:17
I guess () has to be there in the Capture, or you couldn
couldn't bind it to a scalar param correctly
my ($a,$b) := ( (), () ); probably needs to do something rational 18:19
pmichaud boggles
TimToady as does: my ($a,$b) := ( a(), b() );
Auzon rakudo: say #{{ }} 'ok'; 18:20
p6eval rakudo r28678 OUTPUT[␤]
TimToady pugs: my ($a, $b) := ( list(1,2,3), list(4,5,6) ); say $b 18:21
p6eval OUTPUT[456␤]
TimToady that looks correct
18:21 cjfields joined
TimToady though probably because pugs is generating a List object rather than a Capture object, but a list of Captures should behave similarly 18:22
(when bound to a sequence of scalar params)
pmichaud pugs: my $b = list(4,5,6); say $b 18:23
p6eval OUTPUT[4 5 6␤]
pmichaud pugs: my $b := list(4,5,6); say $b 18:24
p6eval OUTPUT[456␤]
pmichaud okay.
TimToady pugs: my $b = list(4,5,6); say $b.WHAT
p6eval OUTPUT[Array␤]
TimToady pugs: my $b := list(4,5,6); say $b.WHAT
p6eval OUTPUT[Array::Const␤]
TimToady heh
cjfields TimToady: wanted to ask yesterday, but with methods versions of trans(), substr(), match(), are we allowing modifiers? 18:25
TimToady sure, they're just named args
cjfields ok 18:26
TimToady they're even spelled the same way: :g
you just pass 'em as args instead of keeping them out front
and the replacement in subst can be a closure to do the s[foo] ~= 'bar' kind of stuff 18:27
cjfields Do we want to keep :c for trans()? I'm thinking of the many-to-one issue. 18:28
that would be 'complement' for those who got the emoticon 18:29
TimToady we could have it if it were defined carefully as "any character that does not match one of these", where "one of these" can be of variable length 18:30
it's really the same as <-[a..z]> processing in regular pattern matching 18:31
that means skip '.' unless the class matches
there's no requirement that '.' match the same length as all the elements in the class
though with our default of graphemes, it generally will be the same in terms of grapheme count 18:32
(since graphemes include any combining characters as part of the "character")
cjfields okay, thanks, that helps. 18:33
TimToady I think being grapheme-centric rather than codepoint-centric will be one of the ways in which p6 will be a disruptive technology
the user shouldn't have to worry about various Unicode representations, by default 18:34
cjfields The use of modifiers for methods, and what the modifiers mean in the context of p6 isn't indicated in S05 18:35
Don't know if it should be clarified or not
but if might help as we start implementing more and more in Rakudo 18:36
TimToady I we clarify everything everywhere, we get a combinatoric explosion :)
*If
cjfields heh, true
TimToady but that could be a valid candidate
cjfields main reason I'm working on this is for a revised bioperl (which is a mess) 18:37
so I'll be putting the grammars to good use at some point
cjfields doesn't think {*} works with rakudo grammars yet 18:38
pmichaud do you mean actual closures, or the {*} token?
cjfields closures 18:39
pmichaud correct, we don't have that in rakudo yet. The hooks are there, though -- just need filling in.
cjfields though I haven't toyed around with them enough 18:40
ok
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TimToady they kinda work in STD5 if you are careful to write in the subset of Perl 6 that gimme5 can fake into Perl 5 18:49
Tene hmm. closures in rakudo might be fun to work on. 18:51
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cjfields Tene: agreed 19:03
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Auzon (diff -w)++ 19:22
pmichaud rakudo already supports closures (sorta, see :outer/lexicals discussion elsewhere)... PGE just doesn't recognize them in regexes yet. 19:25
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Auzon pugs: say +^1 20:32
p6eval OUTPUT[-2␤]
Auzon pugs: say +^1.WHAT
p6eval OUTPUT[-1␤]
Auzon pugs: say (+^1).WHAT
p6eval OUTPUT[Int␤]
moritz_ prefix:<+> on a listy thingy should always return an Int I think 20:33
pugs_svnbot r20992 | pmurias++ | [STD]
r20992 | pmurias++ | added a {*} to arglist
r20992 | pmurias++ | [pixie]
r20992 | pmurias++ | initial commit on pixie - it's a STD frontend to elf
r20992 | pmurias++ | mostly hello world works now
r20992 | pmurias++ | the closures will be translated to p6 soon, pixie_actions contains the not yet used p6
pmurias TimToady: elfish closures will be supported externaly in STD soon
20:33 sri_work left
moritz_ pixie++ 20:34
pmurias it's a hack now
but it would be nice to have it in evalbot soon
moritz_ sure, how is it called? 20:35
pmurias perl pixie --quiet < code_file
moritz_ ok, will do 20:36
no compilation required on evalbot side, right?
btw evalbot needs refactoring - too much duplicated code
pmurias moritz_: you should run brew to compile pixie
moritz_ just `sh brew'? 20:37
20:37 Jedai left 20:38 p6eval left 20:39 p6eval joined
pmurias moritz_: yes 20:39
as described in the readme
README
what's the best way to get the result from a array of match objects? 20:40
moritz_ sees no readme in misc/pixie/
20:41 b_jonas joined
moritz_ pmurias: what do you mean? 20:41
pmurias sorry, forgot to svn add it
moritz_: @array_of_match_object.map({$$_})
pugs_svnbot r20993 | pmurias++ | [pixie] added README 20:42
diakopter psixie with a silent p?
pmurias diakopter: if you like it that way 20:43
diakopter: hi
diakopter pmurias: hi
almost done with the match object tree generation for yap6 20:44
moritz_ evalbot control restart
20:44 p6eval left
pugs_svnbot r20994 | moritz++ | [evalbot] added pixie (but not yet included in perl6: target) 20:44
20:44 aindilis left, p6eval joined
moritz_ pixie: say "hi"; 20:45
p6eval OUTPUT[sh: ./pixie: Permission denied␤]
moritz_ is dump
dumb even ;)
evalbot control restart 20:46
20:46 p6eval left
pugs_svnbot r20995 | moritz++ | [evalbot] use perl to execute pixie ;) 20:46
20:46 p6eval joined
moritz_ pixie: say "hi"; 20:47
p6eval OUTPUT[sh: ./pixie: Permission denied␤]
20:47 p6eval left
moritz_ it might help to svn up before restarting 20:47
20:47 p6eval joined
moritz_ pixie: say "hi"; 20:47
p6eval OUTPUT[Can't locate STD5.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ../../src/perl6 /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at pixie line 4.␤BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at pix...
diakopter gotta run gimme5..? 20:48
pmurias yes
diakopter: what is the intended advantage of yap6 over STD5?
diakopter you better hope moritz_'s server runs linux :D
Auzon It runs Debian
moritz_ which in turn needs perl 5.10 to run
sigh
I can just as well upgrade evalbot's chroot to lenny 20:49
Auzon Does Debian stable ship 5.10 yet?
moritz_ Auzon: no, only testing
diakopter advantage? for me to learn to write a parser [engine] (and maybe a compiler [engine]).
moritz_ Auzon: stable doesn't do version updates at all
Auzon I could compile us 5.10 if you'd prefer not to upgrade everything...
My 5.10 that I compiled on F8 was nice and fast
diakopter recommends building specially..
moritz_ Auzon: I do prefer upgrading everything ;) 20:50
Auzon Faster than 5.10 that F9 shipped...
diakopter Auzon: w/ threads?
moritz_ Auzon: it has to be done anyway, and then we can get rid of the self-compiled ruby as well
it'll just take some work
doing a backup first 20:51
Auzon diakopter: Uhhh, yeah. My F8 5.10 was 32-bit defaults; my F9 is 64-bit from distro (which includes threading). So that's probably it.
diakopter pmurias: you saw my answer to whither yap6? 20:52
moritz_ IO is a bit slow on the server :/ 20:56
Auzon moritz_: Perhaps we could eliminate the need for files to be written for evalbot if they accept input via STDIN? 20:57
pmurias diakopter: yes
moritz_ Auzon: it's not *that* slow. I just noticed it when copying the whole chroot 20:58
Auzon oh. :P
moritz_ Auzon: I decided against that because I didn't know if all implementations would support it
anyway, the plan is to 1) copy the whole chroot to /new_chroot/ (currently named old_chroot, I'm going to change that... ) 20:59
2) in /new_chroot/, upgrade to testing aka lenny
3) re-install all needed perl modules
4) test the implementations there
5) switch to it
pmurias diakopter: re compiler [engine] part, starting a yet another one perl6 *compiler* wouldn't be a good idea 21:00
how do i type the unicode << in vim? 21:01
or the cent?
TimToady ^K<< 21:02
^KCt
moritz_ its AltGr+y for me ;)
TimToady or (for me) right-menu << or c/
pmurias TimToady: thanks 21:03
TimToady when in doubt, say :digraphs
pmurias i prefere not too use the mouse for coding unless i'm forced
TimToady :dig for short 21:04
somewhere I've got a program to grep through Linux's compose key database too, but I always forget where I put it
b_jonas I've put those few funny unicode characters that I need to caps-lock plus numbers in my keyboard 21:05
so « is capslock-shift-6 now
TimToady which is just as many keystrokes as AltGr < < 21:06
moritz_ and one more than AltGr y ;-)
b_jonas well, I rarely need those
TimToady and the << is fast because it's a repeat
b_jonas I don't write perl6 code where I'd actually need «
TimToady my favorite is AltGr oo for °
but I wish I could install the vim bindings under AltGr 21:07
never figgered out how to do that...
pmurias $<<array_of_match_objects is legal?
b_jonas and in the few cases when I actually need to write natural languages correctly, I write in LaTeX anyway so I just use commands which are ascii
moritz_ TimToady: probably not handled at viim level
TimToady moritz_: huh? 21:08
b_jonas I only put them there because I already had caps-lock as a modifier key for hungarian letters
moritz_ TimToady: probably it's done on the X layer, and vim only sees what X forwards to it
b_jonas so it was easy to set up
moritz_ TimToady: or even in kernel space
TimToady er, I meant pmurias: huh?
pmurias TimToady: a hyper op version of applying $ to match objects 21:09
TimToady moritz_: I meant, to take the vim format of digraphs and just translate it to whatever X uses
wasn't intending to use a real vim to do it 21:10
moritz_ TimToady: ah, that's a different thing
TimToady since $ is a listop, it requires space, so $« would also require a following space, I suspect
but I haven't thought much about hyperizing listops
pmurias $« @foo? 21:11
b_jonas I think you could set up the X keyboard layout to compose whatever keystrokes you want to unused function keysyms, and then bind those keysyms to something in vim 21:12
TimToady presumably that could be made to work, though currently the token is considered $\s
b_jonas depends on your configuration
TimToady b_jonas: don't wanna think that hard, just want vim bindings at the shell prompt :)
the readline vi bindings aren't that smart, I suspect 21:13
b_jonas TimToady: do you actually want to bind compose and two keys?
to a command/
TimToady there's a database of all the sequences that you can compose, I just want to add the vim sequences
b_jonas ah, I see
that's different 21:14
I've no idea actually
TimToady so that, for instance AltGr Ct would do what AltGr c/ does
b_jonas I don't have composes in X so I don't know how it works
TimToady (not that I'd use that one...)
I kinda like c/
Juerd TimToady: It's in a file called Compose
TimToady yes, but that has to be compiled somewhere somehow
b_jonas last time I've seen composes was when I edited linux console keymaps
and I didn't use them at that time either
TimToady and that's the part I've never figgered
Juerd TimToady: NAFAIK
b_jonas I juse seen them in the same original file as the rest of the keymap way
was
Juerd I recall having changed Compose and being able to use it after restarting xdm 21:15
TimToady well, I edit the file I think it uses, and it ignores me, but maybe it's different now
haven't tried in a while
Juerd TimToady: There might be multiple Compose files. One per locale I believe.
b_jonas what?
one per locale?
Juerd Or was it one per keyboard. I'm not sure.
TimToady I'm sure there's a way to do it, but I've been notably unsuccessful so far, is all
b_jonas how can it depend on the locale if it's handled by X itself? 21:16
oh, one per keyboard layout
makes more sense that way
TimToady do locate Compose on linux and you'll see 'em all
FSVO linux and locate 21:17
pugs_svnbot r20996 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] fixed test cases repeatedly assigning 'my $a' in the same scope. Also added one test for two's completement on Integers. (added 1 test)
Auzon is thinking about moving t/data_types somehow.
moritz_ S02-types/builtin-types.t or something? 21:19
21:19 TJCRI left
moritz_ btw some tests seem to overlap with S02-liters/radix.t 21:20
but IIRC radix.t doesn't check WHAT
21:20 pmurias left
moritz_ is($a, 36893488147419103232, "we have bignums, not weeny floats"); 21:22
I like that ;)
Auzon Heh. Yeah, I wish I could take credit for amusing things like that 21:23
So is there any opposition to me moving t/data_types/* to t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types ?
moritz_ what other files would you add to that directory?
moritz_ likes the idea of a S02-types/ dir better, and can imagine other tests might fit there 21:24
Auzon There's a bunch of tests there, such as ones for arrays, bools, enums, hashs, lists, nums, pairs, blocks, and subtypes
moritz_ ok, then it's fine
Auzon S02-builtin_data_types is mostly empty
moritz_ I didn't see it alredy existed, sorry for the noise 21:25
Auzon It's ok. :)
diakopter perhaps Prelude tests should be marked/organized as such? 21:26
moritz_ I had nearly the same idea
at some point it might be worth trying to separate prelude tests from language tests 21:27
but sometimes it's hard for me to figure out what exactly is prelude, and what not
Auzon Presumably, prelude tests should belong in its implementation's test directory
b_jonas how would language tests even work without a prelude? 21:28
moritz_ no, because they are specced, and thus part of the language
b_jonas they work with iniperl6 or something/
21:28 wknight8111 left
diakopter I wonder if multiple Prelude interpretations are permitted 21:28
implementations, I mean
21:28 armagad left
diakopter I mean, other than the obvious yes 21:29
pmurias: what's wrong with wanting to learn how to write a compiler [engine]? 21:30
21:32 cjfields left
moritz_ hopes he's upgrading the debian in the right chroot (or even in the chroot at all) 21:32
21:33 rdice left
b_jonas diakopter: how would they coexist? same parrot space, or just different ones? 21:34
pugs_svnbot r20997 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] t/data_types/* -> t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/
b_jonas in the second case I'd say surely yes, in the first case you'd have to take a bit of care so they don't clash (even if they're two copies of the same code) 21:35
moritz_ runs one of his magic tools to see if some of the newly moved tests pass on rakudo 21:36
diakopter b_jonas: what do you mean 21:38
oh, Preludes
I meant each implementation having its own
b_jonas diakopter: oh sure in that case
they'd probably need to have separate preludes
diakopter but why'd you mention parrot
b_jonas because some parts of the prelude would depend on internals of that implementations 21:39
parrot's not important
just whether it's in the same runtime space
like, whether some parts of the program could e.g. see an Array defined by one prelude and expecting an Array defined by the other prelude
or some other problem like that
probably that exact thing won't be the problem because of roles and stuff 21:40
(no-one actually wants an Array anyway)
but something like that
diakopter BADArray
b_jonas like
I don't know
moritz_ b_jonas: you could define a scheme that an implementation may provide parts of the prelude, and the rest is then loaded, which defines plain *everything*, and all definitions that are already there are ignored
so if you can implement foo() in terms of bar() and the other way round, your prelude just includes both 21:41
b_jonas moritz_: yeah
moritz_ and the implementation has provide at least one of them
b_jonas actually it might be good if the prelude is coded so it's idempotent
like plain.tex is
diakopter looks up that word for the 3rd time this week 21:42
moritz_ my English <-> German translator says: English: idempotent. German: idempotent. 21:44
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b_jonas idempotent here means that you could load it a second time after it's already loaded and the second instance changes nothing 21:45
moritz_ ah, f(f(x)) = f(x) for all x
b_jonas: that would be automatically true in the scheme I described above
TimToady on the other hand, loading something only to override it is wasted computation on every invocation, unless you can freeze a checkpoint or something 21:48
(which you probably want anyway)
diakopter .pmc
b_jonas moritz_: I'm not completely familiar in what tasks are delegated to the perl6 prelude 21:49
but it can probably be solved that way
21:49 jfredett left, jfredett_ is now known as jfredett
TimToady from the user's point of view it should not matter at all whether something is defined by the parser or by the prelude. most of the operators in STD.pm could move to the prelude, which is why I put STD into the same directory in the first place 21:51
moritz_ t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/num.t looks dubious to me 22:00
ok(1i ~~ Num, 'Complex Numbers are Nums');
is that test correct? don't think so 22:01
pugs_svnbot r20998 | moritz++ | [spec] fudged num.t
22:02 b_jonas left
Auzon moritz_: What's the problem with it? :-/ 22:04
moritz_ Auzon: that it allows to pass a complex number to everything that declares a "Num" interface 22:05
rakudo: say 1i ~~ Num
p6eval rakudo r28688 OUTPUT[0␤]
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rhr Complex isnota Num (Nums are Ordered) 22:15
moritz_ good point 22:18
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pugs_svnbot r20999 | rhr++ | [docs/p6types] All the synopses are done except S16+29 22:25
Auzon is tempted to just change the '1i ~~ Num' test and snag r21000, but won't. 22:28
moritz_ Auzon: why not? just remove it
Auzon ok, I did. 22:30
pugs_svnbot r21000 | Auzon++ | [gsoc_spectest] removing bad test for Complex matching Num found by moritz++.
moritz_ rakudo: say 54 + 1 + 12 22:31
p6eval rakudo r28688 OUTPUT[67␤]
moritz_ can't find 3 or 4 tests :(
Auzon where? 22:32
moritz_ in the array.t i'm fudging right now
22:37 Lorn left
rakudo_svn r28689 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add passing test num.t to spectest_regression 22:38
pugs_svnbot r21001 | moritz++ | [spec] start to fudge array.t, still needs much tweaking
diakopter .pmc 22:41
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pugs_svnbot r21002 | moritz++ | [spec] S02-builtin_data_types/* 22:45
r21002 | moritz++ | removed/replaced old kwid POD.
r21002 | moritz++ | Many of these tests still need smartlinks
rhr here's a completely silly attempt to diagram the p6 role/class heirarchy: airen.bcm.umontreal.ca/p6types.png 22:48
green==is red==does 22:49
moritz_ that does look scary ;)
rhr I left out all the 'is Any' connections 22:50
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meppl good night 23:05
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rakudo_svn r28691 | moritz++ | [rakudo] more tests for spectest_regression 23:10
pmichaud moritz++ 23:11
moritz_ and Auzon++ for moving these tests (although they weren't all sanity-checked) 23:12
somebody with tuits could convert Ovid++'s test on p6i into a test script 23:13
moritz_ had to go to bed right now :( 23:14
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