perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | ~290 days 'til Xmas
Set by mncharity on 6 March 2009.
pmichaud I've noticed that. 00:00
actually, I think I'm just exceptionally good at guessing where the spec is likely to change before I work on a feature :-)
TimToady it's a useful skill, fershure--wish I had it... :) 00:03
pugs_svn r25813 | moritz++ | [irclog] revert broken .htaccess changes 00:04
TimToady bbl & 00:09
00:23 tarbo2_ joined 00:24 ujwalic joined 00:25 cspencer left 00:26 ujwalic left 00:43 frioux joined 00:59 yary joined 01:01 Kimtaro left 01:02 ruoso joined
yary Hi all, I posted a question about arity to perl.perl6.users a couple days ago, and it hasn't shown up yet. So- 01:03
ruoso Hello!
yary 1, is there something I need to know about posting to that usenet group 01:04
2, here's the Q-
If I make a sub "sub my_arg_example ($a, $b?, $c?) { say $a, $b, $c; }"
how do I ask it for the number of optional arguments? 01:05
01:12 Whiteknight left
yary Need to go, will check for any answer on the logs later 01:20
diakopter yary: I'm sure someone will address it, at some point...
:) 01:21
yary thanks, no prob, I appreciate all the volunteers and am not in hurry
01:21 yary left
wayland76 As far as the usenet group goes, I'd never heard of it until you mentioned it, and I've been around here a few weeks 01:21
01:24 nihiliad left
wayland76 rakudo: sub my_arg_example ($a, $b?, $c?) { say $a, $b, $c; say +self.signature.params } 01:29
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«{ ... }Ā»
wayland76 rakudo: sub my_arg_example ($a, $b?, $c?) { say $a, $b, $c; say $?ROUTINE.signature.params } my_arg_example(1, 2, 3) 01:30
01:30 eternaleye joined
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "my_arg_exa"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā» 01:30
wayland76 rakudo: sub my_arg_example ($a, $b?, $c?) { say $a, $b, $c; say $?ROUTINE.signature.params }; my_arg_example(1, 2, 3);
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$?ROUTINE' in my_arg_exampleā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)ā¤Ā» 01:31
wayland76 Is that a bug?
Anyway, to answer yary's question, I think it's probably $?ROUTINE.signature.params - $?ROUTINE.arity 01:32
ruoso wayland76, isn't it &?ROUTINE?
wayland76 rakudo: sub my_arg_example ($a, $b?, $c?) { say $a, $b, $c; say &?ROUTINE.signature.params - &?ROUTINE.arity }; my_arg_example(1, 2, 3); 01:33
You're right ruoso
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«123ā¤Null PMC access in find_method()ā¤current instr.: 'my_arg_example' pc 184 (EVAL_17:86)ā¤Ā»
wayland76 So let me correct that to &?ROUTINE.signature.params - &?ROUTINE.arity
But my question is, does he want the number of optional args the routine takes, or the number that have actually been passed? 01:34
ruoso hmmm... I'm not sure asking how many were actually passed is that easy after the bind
01:35 Kimtaro joined
wayland76 yary: ruoso usually knows what he's talking about 01:40
(more so than me, anyway :) )
01:47 frioux left, frioux joined
pmichaud afaik, &?ROUTINE isn't implemented in rakudo yet. 01:49
but the other answer is that it's probably &?ROUTINE.count - &?ROUTINE.arity 01:50
ruoso pmichaud, about different arity in multis for reduce... I was thinking that using ~~ is not a good idea, because that happens inside postcircumfix:<( )> 01:51
maybe that should be yet another argument to postcircumfix:<( )> itself
(SMOP already declares :$cc in that signature)
(as in "current-continuation") 01:52
diakopter &?ROUTINE is both the routine model and the invocation, an instance of the model?
ruoso yes, &?ROUTINE is specific to that invocation 01:53
isn't it?
I think it is... but I might be wrong...
diakopter warns you not to look at me :P
(for the answer)
lol
frioux is foo bar: syntactically the same as bar.foo? 01:56
or have I been reading things on the mailing list wrong 01:57
diakopter I think you mean to say semantically
frioux sure 01:58
but isn't Str.chop semantically the same as chop(Str)?
but that just happens to be because of the is export
vs foo bar: which would always be the same as bar.foo
ruoso frioux, yes... the ":" marks it as an indirect syntax 02:00
std: my $foo; $foo.bar: ;
p6eval std 25813: OUTPUTĀ«ok 00:02 35mā¤Ā»
ruoso ops
std: my $foo; bar $foo: ; 02:01
p6eval std 25813: OUTPUTĀ«ok 00:02 36mā¤Ā»
frioux another question: is 'is export' supposed to automatically export the method? 02:05
I only ask because of the sub split ... in Any-str.pm 02:06
ruoso frioux, yes... that's what "is export" is about 02:12
but sometimes the method has a different signature than the sub
then you need two declarations
split is one of them 02:13
frioux ah, ok, understood 02:15
02:15 alester joined, AzureStone left
frioux I thought that's what is export was for, but I wasn't sure why they also declared split 02:15
thanks ruoso
diakopter where can I read about bvalues 02:18
erm 02:19
s1n frioux: are you the same as frooh? 02:20
frioux s1n: yeah
one's home, one's work
diakopter searched irclog for bvalue and reads 02:21
s1n frioux: okay, so when are we having the first p6m meeting? 02:22
frioux as soon as you are ready! 02:23
diakopter ruoso: 'bvalue' is short for 'bound value' or 'binding value' or ...?
frioux I figure april would be fine, but we should probably fine more people than the three of us (that includes pmichaud)
find*
s1n well, i'll be crazy busy for the next month, 1 meeting is fine, but i don't really want to stretch myself too thin 02:24
frioux of course
you're in grad school after all
s1n i have 3 assignments and 2 tests in the next 6 weeks
frioux you took it further than the rest of us :-)
s1n so this weekend i might have some time 02:25
frioux well, I would figure that meeting more than once a month might be overkill anyway.
s1n true
frioux I have company this weekend, but *generally* I am free on saturdays, so normally that would have worked
s1n okay, i would say next week(days) after tuesday is the last i can ensure any block of time 02:26
frioux so you are saying the coming monday or tuesday is ok before you are bombarded? 02:27
s1n no, i'm bombarded with work until tuesday 02:28
assignment due
02:28 shinobi-cl joined
frioux got it 02:28
would you prefer wed, thurs, or next sat?
I bet I could get some coworkers to come too btw 02:29
at the very least my roommate
shinobi-cl rakudo: class A { method BUILD {say 'Constructor'} }; my A $Class;
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«AĀ»
shinobi-cl lol
what im thinking ..
02:30 shinobi-cl left
frioux somehow crashed a single window of firefox, but not the whole browser 02:30
s1n frioux: i would say thursday, i'm going to be in the library from sat through wednesday
frioux alrighty
diakopter starts at S01:1. again. 02:31
02:31 nihiliad joined
frioux we should find out who all wants to come, and then based on that decide on something like a Barnes and Noble to meet at 02:31
02:31 shinobi-cl joined
frioux if it's just you and me and people frm our area there is probably one on 75 in allen or something 02:32
s1n pmichaud and i have been meeting at the market street in allen because of the free wifi and coffee (not free) :)
ruoso diakopter, "bindable value" 02:33
there isn't much beyond SMOP sources and IRC logs
frioux I'm down with that.
ruoso I don't think rakudo has anything similar to that
frioux how about a time?
s1n 7pm? 02:34
frioux sure
are you on email?
s1n yeah
frioux you wanna msg it to me?
or if you don't care about spam just say it
s1n sent 02:35
any news on the p6m domain? we have space ready to go on dallas.p6m.org?
frioux we apparently have it
I checked, and it's gotten but it's bare (godaddy bare that is)
ruoso diakopter, but in summary, it's a proxy for the actual value that remembers where the value comes from... so you can use it as if it was the actual value, but you can also bind something to it, and that will update the place where this value came from 02:36
it also represents a lazy lookup of the actual value
diakopter ruoso: ok, so essentially a lazy fetch
ruoso which is essential so that %a<b><c><d><e><f> doesn't autovivify 02:37
s1n pmichaud: is the hosting space you mentioned the same as rakudo.org?
diakopter ruoso: is the lookup done by symbol at runtime or can the compiler bind it deterministically always? 02:38
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ruoso diakopter, when you have plain variable lookups, yeah.. it can be done... 02:38
but %a<b><c><d> := 1 02:39
is a different scenario
and that's completely runtime
diakopter ok, so all the symbols must be persisted for the life of their scope if a usage like that exists?
ruoso I don't follow 02:40
diakopter hrm. /me retracts the question; strike from record. 02:41
:)
02:43 Limbic_Region left
diakopter does each "{ use v5; ... }" block have its own __DATA__ and everything? can a "use v6;" block inside a "use v5;" block interact with the scope of a "use v6;" block that surrounds the "use v5;" block? 02:44
frioux phone& 02:45
ruoso diakopter, that's pretty much undefined behavior yet
diakopter it smells a tad undefinable
ruoso for all implementors, it does 02:46
I think it will heavily depend on implementation
shinobi-cl rakudo: class A { submethod BUILD { say 'constructor' } }; my $something = A.new;
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;A;BUILD' pc 136 (EVAL_20:64)ā¤Ā»
shinobi-cl rakudo: class A { submethod BUILD { say 'constructor'; } }; my $something = A.new; 02:48
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;A;BUILD' pc 136 (EVAL_20:64)ā¤Ā»
diakopter ruoso: it seems to me that it would need to be all-or-nothing either way (in order to get all the compiler/interpreter/runtime phases/models to match up in the least...): either the perl5 runtime (embedded, concurrent, whatever) is able to access absolutely everything in the perl6 runtime (so essentially the perl6 implementation *is* in/beside the perl5 engine), *or* the perl6 runtime fully re-implements perl5 so that its Perl 5 is slightly-diet (less su 02:51
argh; truncated again, didn't it 02:52
.. its Perl 5 is slightly-diet (less sugary) Perl 6...
dietperl 02:53
ruoso well, I think for Inline code there isn't much a reason for not implementing a specific parser
but my plan for SMOP do include merging it inside p5
diakopter that was my understanding 02:54
(albeit rudimentary)
(my understanding, that is)
02:55 alc joined
shinobi-cl i dont get it.... what im doing wrong? 02:55
frioux what exactly does $foo ~~ Whatever mean? 02:56
rakudo: 0 ~~ Whatever 03:00
rakudo: '' ~~ Whatever
rakudo: 'frew' ~~ Whatever
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā» 03:01
frioux rakudo: nudef ~~ Whatever
rakudo: undef ~~ Whatever
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Could not find non-existent sub nudefā¤current instr.: '_block14' pc 79 (EVAL_16:41)ā¤Ā»
rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
frioux rakudo: (undef ~~ Whatever).perl
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«"0"Ā»
frioux rakudo: ([] ~~ Whatever).perl 03:02
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«"0"Ā»
frioux rakudo: ('frew') ~~ Whatever
diakopter ruoso: I guess I'm more than a tiny bit worried/curious that nested-Perl 5 requirement will go away... are there tests for it in t/spec ? (no)
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
frioux rakudo: ('frew',1) ~~ Whatever
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
ruoso diakopter, I don't think It'll go away... I just think it will be very implementation-specific
frioux rakudo: my $f; $f ~~ Whatever 03:03
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
frioux how is that ever true?
diakopter ruoso: I mean, it would have to be more further specified which v5? 5.000 by default?
frioux rakudo: sub foo($bar = *) { $bar ~~ Whatever; }; foo() 03:04
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«1Ā»
frioux rakudo: sub foo($bar = *) { $bar ~~ Whatever; }; foo(1)
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
frioux weird.
03:04 shinobi-cl left
ruoso diakopter, I'd argue "the version of p5 installed"... but that wouldn't make sense for parrot 03:04
frioux rakudo: sub foo($bar = *) { $bar ~~ Whatever; }; foo(1,1)
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'foo' pc 84 (EVAL_17:50)ā¤Ā»
diakopter ruoso: ... nor any implementation I can imagine that would be embedding a parser... is it { use v5 "for the sake of easy copy-paste"; } or { use v5 "for the sake of something_else I can't think of"; } 03:06
I mean, if it's just Inline for the sake of doing interesting FFI or some kind of speedup, then some other API (or syntax, or something) should make that easier... but if it's just Inline for easy copy-paste, then.... I don't see the point. I'm sure this is an ignorant question. 03:08
frioux why do all the methods in Any-str.pm in the setting have mutli? 03:11
just in case or something?
diakopter I mean, I can imagine the billions of lines of Perl 5 code out there in .pl and .pm files and inside database records and inside code generators written in Perl or other languages, and someone needs to do some modification, and decides to use Perl 6, so they create a fancy shmancy Perl 6 wrapper/interface to the existing code... I guess I'm having a hard time imagining a good use case for Inline::Perlv5PointWhatever. I'm not saying there isn't one, I ju 03:12
Inline::Perlv5PointWhatever. I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't see it at the moment 03:13
but if we're saying that { use v5; } exists to allow writing *new* code in Perl 5 for a Perl 6 implementation, then I again don't see the point... because why would one do that? Okay, if something is going to be easier/faster/neater/smokier/greener to write in Perl 5 over Perl 6, then doesn't that mean the redesign wasn't worth it? 03:17
03:17 ihrd joined
ihrd rakudo: ::?CLASS 03:17
diakopter or could it just mean that someone is having difficulty switching their mind from Perl 5 mode for the time being and doesn't want to look up the Perl 6 way of doing it for a minute/while...
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6;Grammar;Actions;typename' pc -3011976 ((unknown file):-1)ā¤Ā»
ruoso diakopter, I think it's more of an exercise of being able to inline whatever code 03:18
not just Perl 6
Perl 5
but maybe Python
Java
or whatever
diakopter that line of reasoning argues for the need-to-embed-desugarers-for-all-those-languages-to-Perl-6 eventuality 03:19
ruoso it might make sense because a language might require a type hierarchy that is diverse from Perl 6
so writing a small snippet in other language is easier than doing all the conversions
that applies very well to Java 03:20
and might apply to p5
diakopter ok, but that use case implies that the Java->Perl6 desugarer would need to re-implement the JVM type system in the desugaring process
ruoso yes 03:21
but that's not a big deal,
since most of the Java core classes are written in java
see GNU Classpath
diakopter seems to me it'd be a big deal
I mean, being able to switch syntaxes is one thing.. but semantics? down to the thousands of backwards-compatible corner cases of a foreign language? 03:22
yes, I can see how switching out parsers could be done reliably 03:23
but not reimplementing or generating all the glue interfaces 03:24
ruoso it's unexplored territory actually 03:25
it needs to be stressed out at some point
diakopter my thought is that *to do it right*, you'd need a language/interpreter system that literally is not "optimized" at all. all is malleable/hookable at runtime, all the abstractions are hierarchical, and the entire language system is generalized enough to encompass all other languages' semantics. in the ideal case. of course, it's not an unapproachable ideal. That is, the direction toward that ideal is decently sketched. 03:26
other languages' semantics. in the ideal case. of course, it's not an unapproachable ideal. That is, the direction toward that ideal is 03:27
decently sketched.
I need to press Enter more often
or less often, I guess :)
diakopter sighs and goes back to throwing rocks from a glass house built on sand. 03:29
ruoso diakopter, there is a barrier in Perl 6 that not many other languages support
actually, I'm not aware of any
which is that the object internal repesentation is not assumed
that provides an incredibly high level of interoperation 03:30
diakopter reword/restate plz?
ruoso in theory,
you can define a class in Perl 6
a full-blown hierarchy
and say
MyClass.bless(Glib.CREATE)
and you'll have a Glib object that works with your class 03:31
meppl good night
diakopter meppl: g'night
meppl ;)
diakopter ruoso: trying to understanding how your example congeals 03:33
trying to understand
frioux like blood?
diakopter coalesces.
frioux I like congeal better...it's more visceral :-)
skids moans 03:34
frioux ?
03:34 meppl left
ruoso In Java, for instance, both Class and Object have their internal structure assumed 03:34
wayland76 Maybe he doesn't like thinking about congealing blood
skids That was a particularly bad pun, is all.
ruoso so the Java language can't really work with foreign objects
frioux hahaha, that's not hard
wayland76 pun?
I missed it 03:35
frioux congeal, visceral
skids visceral, viscous? well, I guess I hallucinated it.
frioux not really a pun, but kinda related
hahaha
nice
ruoso in Perl 6 you have: "The representation", "the Metaclass" and the "class"
wayland76 *now* it's funny :)
ruoso all that to deifine the object
diakopter alright, the context (a type system unto itself) defines the representations, right? 03:36
wayland76 ruoso: We are listening; thanks :)
ruoso diakopter, Perl 6 uses p6opaque by default
Perl 5 would use a SV* of some sort
Java would use java object 03:37
and so on
and as long as we get the APIs right
you can interoperate them
diakopter right, even with "out " parameters and concurrency and shared memory and such, if it's done right. 03:38
as long all the necessarily permuted type converters are defined/generated.
ruoso exactly
the point of embedding a different language
would be to require less conversions 03:39
because you would have a single entry point and a single output
instead of trying to convert arguments and return values for each individual call
diakopter hrm. 03:41
so the Inline block has access to its sibling lexicals through what symbols?
diakopter thinks again about MyClass.bless(Glib.CREATE) 03:43
ruoso well... in theory, the compiler has to detect that the symbol being used is declared outside the scope 03:44
which means that that value have to be interfaced
diakopter follows you so far
ruoso and provide an inner version of that symbol already type-mapped 03:45
diakopter ... which implies that the Inline block can't be "compiled" until runtime, unless you set up universal runtime converters
casters
for non-dynamic type systems 03:46
I guess kinda like a bvalue, but importingtype-shifting.
well, it definitely can't be type-checked in the traditional pre-runtime sense. 03:47
ruoso but that's what a dynamic language is about, isn't it? 03:48
making all that checkings as late as possible
at least one thing we can be sure....
diakopter although, frankly, I haven't seen very much (any) Perl 6 code (or chatter) that employs such dynamism... it seems that optional typing lends itself to typed objects staying that type for life, but non typed objects remaining... untyped. 03:49
ruoso diakopter, think about runtime mixins
that's life-changing
diakopter ... aside from trivial context-inference and language-defined representations 03:50
diakopter thinks about runtime mixins, and expects my life to be changed. 03:51
;)
sure, that "just" necessitates "type" (mmd decisions) recalculated at each change..... but the primitive types of the various languages should be able to be interfaced somewhat trivially. I mean, you can always intercept *every* method invocation in your hosted runtime :P 03:53
(isn't that what you'd have to do?) 03:55
ruoso not really 03:56
in the case of SMOP and P5 integration
the idea is making the invocation completely delegated
to wherever the object came from
no need to have a SV* with the pointer address stored as an int 03:57
diakopter hm. 03:58
ruoso I need a modified p5 to do that
but it's not a huge modification 03:59
I just need to add a new member on top of SV
I presume the same could be done with python (at least the stackless version)
and probably smalltalk 04:00
diakopter the CLR gets something comparable with .net4 - a special delegate type whose constructor is lazy/calledback, even outside the managed env 04:01
so you really could write your program inside-out/backwards. 04:02
ruoso except that in SMOP it's not specific to constructors 04:03
it applies to absolutely any method call
diakopter right, but also re-entrant, so the constructor *is* the type manager. 04:04
since it can declare all its members as callbacks to its own continuation
ruoso well... it can do whatever it wants...
diakopter right, that's what I'm saying, *I think*
lol
^!bed 04:05
ruoso btw 04:06
diakopter, that syntax in SMOP means a call supposed to be intercepted by the representation
;)
diakopter yah 04:07
tycho's object/actor system hooks the object/invocation system analogously. 04:09
I'm finding I prefer APIs over syntax. 04:11
is that bad? 04:14
PerlJam diakopter: what's the difference? 04:15
diakopter to me, some languages have syntax for things that can be expressed in an API that implements the "language feature" (the syntax) using other more-primitive parts of the language... in other words, the syntax can be desugared to a subset of the same language. so, the syntax isn't really an intrinsic part of the language; it's an extension of some smaller version of the language. 04:18
... reducing that logic further leads to the idea of finding the smallest subset of a language that can't be refactored into itself 04:19
into an implementation on itself, I mean
wayland76 diakopter: It means you're becoming a Python programmer 04:20
diakopter the portion of the language requiring bootstrapping
oh?
diakopter muses
wayland76 no, wait, I'm wrong
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instructi...t_computer 04:21
diakopter but it also implies that a decent way to bootstrap a language might be to work "backwards" from the sugary tips 04:22
s/implies/suggests/
wayland76 But seriously, it does sound like a Python or PHP sort of thing to do (doing most things via API)
Now, have I missed something? I don't want to stop your musing, in case it's useful :) 04:23
diakopter to clarify, I'm finding I like the wordiness of APIs because they're clearer to me (and newcomers) than syntax. I mean, golfing is fun to study and play, but I don't think I'm in the minority of developers when I say that it's much easier [for others (and self!)] to comprehend/maintain/support code that isn't golfed (golfable?). 04:26
I mean, of course it's more fun for those who equate fun with challenging.
wayland76 Well, that's true 04:27
There are a number of factors involved here
The first is, if you have mostly not-so-bright developers, then yes, you're better off with a more B&D language like Python or Java
diakopter ruoso: ^!bed ended up being a trampoline :P
it doesn't have to be not-so-bright... just not-as-bright-as-golfers 04:28
wayland76 There are a number of advantages to Perl, though, that can be beneficial if your people can handle them
diakopter afk :D will comment l8r 04:29
frioux speaking of, what do you guys think about using advanced techniques with "not-so-bright" devs?
for example, before I came to my current job they never used map
wayland76 One example is that it teaches you new programming methods. For example, after I learned Perl, I started doing a lot more with hashes of subs. 04:30
Which can sometimes eliminate redundant code that would be hard to remove otherwise
(without creating a separate class for each)
I also made myself learn regex, and the benefits paid off 04:31
frioux hurray for anonymous subroutines :-)
s1n i am of the opinion that new neural pathways must always be forged and the search for a better way to do things must never end. if it does, you have resigned yourself to a long wait to retirement and will make coworkers miserable for having to review your code
that's not positive, but i loathe people who "do it for the money"
wayland76 I like Perl because, while I like the control-freakness of other languages, they don't do things the way *I* like, whereas perl lets me :)
frioux s1n: haha, but it's not (in my experience) hard to win over the people who do it for something other than the love of coding/learning 04:32
wayland76 s1n: agreed, with the exception that I wouldn't use the label "do it for the money"
s1n i've worked with both kinds, and generally, the aforementioned group is the type to refuse to learn basic things like map 04:33
that to me is unacceptable
wayland76 map isn't an advanced technique :)
frioux wayland76: for people who are used to c it is
s1n wayland76: that was a shorthand, i was referring to people who treat it like a 9-to-5 and don't care how or what they do
wayland76 frioux: It depends to me how readable it is. For example, if you're using things that others may not be familiar with, put in as many parens as needed to make things clear :) 04:34
frioux wayland76: agreed. I have just been mulling over it for a while
s1n i will forgoe readability at the cost of greater flexibility any day of the week
i have no sympathy for coworkers who dislike code "because it's hard"
frioux because when a co-worker came to me a month after I wrote a hash of subroutines and asked what the deal was I started to wonder if it was a bad idea or not
PerlJam wayland76: the really big thing about perl is that it doesn't constrain you to doing things in whatever ways the language designer decided things should be it done. It let's you tailor your solution to the actual problem by whatever means are useful. 04:35
Java is a good example of a language that constrains you to think about and solve problems in a particular way rather than in the "natural language" of the problem you're trying to solve.
wayland76 PerlJam: That's right, but I think we should apply our own constraints 04:36
PerlJam (python is another weaker example)
wayland76 Btw, you may all be interested in www.perl.com/doc/FMTEYEWTK/sort.html
PerlJam tchrist still lives!
wayland76 (Tom and Randal were big in the Perl community in the early years)
s1n frioux: a similar story: i was given grief before because i made use of coderefs for parameters because it "could be hard to read and understand", i drew the line there and said "then pick up a book" 04:37
wayland76 Anyway, diakopter, does this help?
frioux s1n: I just told my co-workers that I assumed that they are smart and can figure it out :-)
PerlJam wayland76: did you just relegate them to a footnote? :-)
s1n frioux: my typical response: link to perldoc :)
frioux well, they know how to look it up on perldoc 04:38
they are willing to learn
they just care about somethings more than coding
see, I am learning and writing perl6
they are reading about politics, playing video games, and raising children
s1n blah
frioux I won't criticise them for their choices, but I won't coddle them for them either 04:39
the latter them being the choices
wayland76 PerlJam: Sort of, just in case anyone here is too perl-young to remember them :)
PerlJam Randal still does IRC you know.
Though he's on #git and #seaside (I think) these days rather than #perl 04:40
s1n the mind is a terrible thing to waste, but that's coming from a 3rd year so i spend all day long learning basically :)
frioux haha, yeah
wayland76 Well, Tom is still on p6l, and chipped in on a big Unicode argument a couple of months back 04:41
And his name is on the front of Programming Perl too :)
frioux looks forward to Programming Perl 6
PerlJam yeah, he rarely participates though. I guess he's tired of emitting all of that prose ;)
s1n wayland76: and about 2 dozen of some highly critical modules
frioux is Damian still around? 04:42
I read that he does stuff but all Ive seen is the latest OSCON
wayland76 They're still around, but I remember when the only big names were Larry, Tom, and Randal
s1n frioux: he did oscon 2008 04:43
frioux s1n: yeah, but he hardly spoke of perl6
which is cool
but still
PerlJam wayland76: you must be an oldster.
wayland76 I haven't seen Damian recently, but Larry says that he's still responsible for the POD spec
Not that old. 32 :)
But I was on clpm when I was 19
s1n frioux: the tiny perl6 book oreilly made talks about how p6 is a shift from the old gaurde to the new, those guys were the old 04:44
PerlJam cool.
frioux I never saw that book
I thought it was too soon to make a book
so I didn't buy it
wayland76 is that perl6 and parrot?
s1n they made one like 2 years ago lol
frioux exactly
PerlJam wayland76: I've been programming in perl since 1992 or so. I'm an oldster (but not that old!) :)
s1n it talks about PASM and some PIR, pretty dated now 04:45
wayland76 I didn't get on the 'Net until '95
PerlJam s1n: It's still a fairly good reference on some parrot things.
s1n first half was about new culture/development and new changes from p5
PerlJam s1n: most of the ops haven't changed for instance.
s1n PerlJam: yes, i agree, i used it several times
wayland76 But at that point, I already knew BASIC, Pascal, x86 ASM, and a tiny bit of FORTRAN
PerlJam (assuming you're talking about "Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials"
)
s1n PerlJam: yes, i am 04:46
PerlJam and not the older, more outdated book :)
s1n i bought the first edition immediately, never got the second, waiting for a third :)
wayland76 I'm waiting for Parrot not to be essential :)
s1n wayland76: that's not nice
don't bite the hand that feeds you :)
besides, PIR isn't that bad 04:47
wayland76 Well, you know what I mean -- I'm waiting for it to just work, so I don't need to know about it, except in a "I use Linux" sort of way :)
frioux wayland76: agreed
I love the idea of parrot
wayland76 (and I've had a kernel patch accepted :) )
frioux but I hate having error messages from it :-) 04:48
PerlJam s1n: I always describe PIR as the "perl of assembly languages" :)
s1n PerlJam: that's not bad, but it's only barely an assembly language
i've done assembly work before and it provides _lots_ of shortcuts and shorthands that you rarely get in languages like MIPS assembler 04:49
wayland76 Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!
s1n wayland76: poor error messages does not constitude poor product quality
frioux I didn't say it was bad code
wayland76 That's what I get for modifying code I don't understand :)
frioux I just don't *like* the error messages
vs perl 5 04:50
nice, palateable, helpful errors :-)
s1n frioux: and how long as perl5 had to evolve?
frioux haha, point taken
s1n give parrot time and patience, it will shine
frioux Oh I am sure it will
I hope that all the other langs start using it too
PerlJam frioux: you know ... TimToady has been putting some really good error messages and such in STD.pm. I was contemplating adding them to rakudo the other day (I just have to find time) 04:51
frioux wouldn't it be great if the ruby guys just gave up on all their speed and memory issues because of their weird impl and used parrot?
s1n an avalanche is often started by the shifting of a single snowflake :)
frioux PerlJam: I know, I saw that, and I have had good experience with some of the errors in perl 6
but when it gets to parrot I just know that something is wrong
PerlJam frioux: experience will teach you what's wrong :) 04:52
frioux I'm sure it will :-)
at work I do a ton of javascript and the errors there are useless
so I know what it's like
and you get used to it
PerlJam experience and stack traces anyway :)
frioux but you never like it
right
wayland76 Btw, as far as shifting error messages to rakudo, it's my impression from the ROADMAP that the possibility of using STD itself isn't too far away 04:53
frioux that would be awesome
wayland76 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ea328...cs/ROADMAP 04:54
Actually, maybe I'm wrong
But it seems like once they get M1 done, it'll be a lot closer
frioux btw, our on a class method just means not a private method, right? 04:55
in other words a public method 04:56
s1n frioux: isn't adding our to a method redundant? ! turns it private, otherwise it's public right?
TimToady our on a method now aliases it into the current package, my into the current lexical scope
otherwise no alias is made 04:57
and only the metaobject knows the method
wayland76 sort of like "is export to package"?
frioux and the package just happens to be the class?
TimToady yes, only your own package
yes
frioux gnarly.
TimToady a class is a module is a package
frioux right
TimToady except for the meta bits :) 04:58
wayland76 Oh :)
That answers my next question :)
frioux lame. I just got logged out of my blog because it's midnight
s1n TimToady: i thought my was replaced with !
TimToady for declaring private methods, yes
PerlJam TimToady: and what does package Foo; class Bar { our method baz { ... } } # do ? :-) 04:59
TimToady if you say my method foo you've got a normal method with a lexcial alias of &foo that can be called as a sub
s1n is a normal method public?
TimToady create a &Foo::Bar::baz subroutine
along with a method in the Bar class metaobject 05:00
yes, public
wayland76 s1n: I'm not sure whether you've gotten TimToady's careful distinction between public/private vs. export & scope
(maybe not scope)
(something, anyway :) )
s1n i probably haven't 05:01
frioux TimToady: do you know where you said that thing about the STAR language which would just DWIM?
TimToady yes, has one verb * that does exactly what you want
I think I got the language from Hofstadter
PerlJam Hofstadter++ 05:02
frioux interesing; which book? I didn't think it was in GED
TimToady but we only use * for nouns in Perl 6 :)
frioux either way, it's clearly the inspiration
wayland76 I haven't read it, but I have it near my bed
TimToady seems to me it was GEB
frioux maybe I should read it again.
it's been 4 years
wayland76 I heard a similar idea in my first year linguistics class 05:03
TimToady it's been a lot longer for me :)
frioux haha
TimToady well, degenerate cases are always somewhat enlightening
though not always useful
I'm reminded of the cartoon
Gigantor
frioux never heard of it. 05:04
TimToady where the controller had maybe two buttons on it
wayland76 "No, no, you're saying it in the nominative case. You need to use the degenerative case"
:)
TimToady but they always did just what the hero wanted
frioux ah, got it
TimToady Gigantor being the robot that obeyed the buttons
frioux right
TimToady one button must have meant "warmer" and the other one "colder" :) 05:05
frioux TimToady: can you explain how * is related to Whatever?
TimToady Whatever is the *type* of *
frioux I was looking at some code today and it was....strange
05:05 awarefish joined
TimToady so ~~ Whatever will almost always be false 05:05
since most types don't *do* Whatever
frioux ahhhhh
that explains it 05:06
TimToady however any multi can write some cases in terms of type Whatever
and * produces the Whatever value that lands on that multi case
so ~~ * matches anything
wayland76 I'm not sure we should be allowed to do that to English :)
TimToady but the multi is written sub foo (Whatever, Whatever), not (*,*)
since it's matching the type 05:07
frioux interesting
what abut sub ($foo = *) ?
that's slightly different right?
TimToady that would just default $foo to *
which can be a bit of a problem if you are not expecting to get dwimmery back from the sub 05:08
frioux rakudo: sub foo($bar = *) { $bar ~~ Whatever; }; foo()
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«1Ā»
frioux rakudo: sub foo($bar = *) { $bar ~~ Whatever; }; foo(2)
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«0Ā»
TimToady it's really a type of currying, so * + 1 ends up returning a closure
which is a kind of type failure if you were expecting a Num, say....
frioux interesting 05:09
TimToady so generally you don't want to use * at too many removes from the dwimmery
or it gets confusing
frioux haha, well ONE confused me
but i figured it out
TimToady like feeding junctions to things that don't expect them
frioux also: gather and take are awesome, so thanks for that 05:10
TimToady it might work, but you might have trouble explaining why..
you're welcome, was partly TheDamian's doing as well, iirc
frioux well, it's surprising that it wasn't already something you could do simply 05:11
TimToady but it's a nice decoupling of co-routines from the sub call apparatus
frioux yeah
TimToady to the extend that I'm not sure P6 even needs official co-routines
05:11 alc left
TimToady in fact, as soon as you have gather/take it seems like coro is a highly artificial restriction 05:12
but having lazy lists as an abstraction separate from co-routines and iterators helps a lot with that too 05:13
05:14 ruoso left
TimToady remains to be seen whether we can get the p5 thinkers into that mindset, but lists seemed like the natural place to introduce laziness 05:14
frioux well, I'd love to talk and listen more, but it's midnight here
night all! 05:15
TimToady g'night
they're dropping like flies in Texas, I guess... :)
PerlJam I'm still up!
TimToady I should know where you're located...Chicago? 05:16
PerlJam Corpus Christi Texas :)
TimToady ah, well, at least it's not planet Houston
I've been as close as San Antonio, I guess 05:19
s1n way too lay for those of us with a $DAYJOB :) 05:21
TimToady: btw, i grew up in austin, went to school in san antonio, and now live in dallas :)
TimToady well, Dallas, that's almost the middle of the country. :) 05:22
give or take a couple states
s1n not my favorite town
bacek_ suspects that TimToady is XKCD author.
s1n another one bites the dust 05:23
bed&
TimToady if I were XKCD author I'd have known that you can end a Perl program with a right parenthesis
bacek_ Typos, just for conspiracy reasons :) 05:24
TimToady 'sides, I take my theism seriously :)
I doubt M. Munroe teaches sunday school... 05:25
or plays drums in his church's worship band... 05:26
bacek_ have no idea who are M. Munroe... 05:27
05:28 justatheory left 05:37 ilogger2_ joined
araujo PerlJam, well, that depends, it could also be harder 05:37
:P
wayland76 News Flash: Sociologists have discovered that all wars are caused by Yak beards!
pmichaud will there be any need for "yacc"s after Perl 6? ;-) 05:38
wayland76 Strangely enough, the only tool that will shave all yaks, and keep them shaven, is Perl 6, a programming language that has been years in the making
TimToady I rather suspect there's an endless feed of yaks available, if we want them 05:39
05:39 kate21de joined
TimToady and there will still be the problem of getting someone to pay us to shave them 05:39
PerlJam That rather sounds like O.S.Card's "ansible" where if you imagine it to be, it is.
(assuming I remember the Ender books well enough) 05:40
wayland76 Hmm. I imagine there's no ansible :)
TimToady my wife knows Scott Card, maybe we can get one from him
wayland76 Ah, to be a celebrity :)
TimToady actually, only has to do with her writing, not me being a celebrity, or him... :) 05:41
wayland76 ok
TimToady she wrote fiction reviews for a rag he was editing at one point
wayland76 Well, I guess I'll give up my plans to be a Perl celebrity then :)
TimToady I do believe, like Card, that living one's life is a kind of sacrament 05:43
PerlJam okay, it is now my bed time. Good night from the body of christ :) 05:46
PerlJam sleep &
TimToady heh
night
wayland76 'night
pmichaud PerlJam: you're in CRP itself, not annaville or calallen or somewhere bizarre like that? ;-)
PerlJam pm: Calallen is within the city limits.
:)
pmichaud that's what all of the people who live there say, yes. :-)
PerlJam sleep for real this time & 05:47
05:59 ejs joined, WootKit joined
wayland76 We have a FSNode type that does a portable path, with the path separators as / or \ or whatever, depending on the platform 06:02
Should we have a MultiPath type that will stringify multiple paths correctly, and join them with the environment variable separator? 06:03
ie. /path/one:/path/two on Unix, and C:\path\one;C:\path\two on Windows? 06:04
Or is that something for a library?
06:15 awarefish joined 07:28 DemoFreak joined
Matt-W rakudo: my $str = "abc"; say $str.index('b'); 07:32
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«1ā¤Ā»
Matt-W rakudo: my $str = "abc"; say $str.index('f');
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤ā¤Ā»
08:09 Kimtaro_ joined 08:10 masak joined
mikehh rakudo (087e299) on parrot r37373 builds make test PASS make spectest FAIL Kubuntu Intrepid i386 08:11
masak nice.
lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
masak @massage 08:12
lambdabot wayland76 said 3d 10h 14m 59s ago: in regards to CPAN6, see cpan6.org/ and S22 :)
moritz_ mikehh: what exactly fails?
masak @clear
lambdabot Messages cleared.
mikehh t/spec/S02-literals/sub-calls.rakudo TODO passed: 16
moritz_ that's not a FAIL
mikehh t/spec/S12-methods/instance.rakudo Parse errors: Bad plan. You planned 26 tests but ran 24. 08:13
thats why I get a FAIL
moritz_ that file was changed in r25813.. 08:14
mikehh Failed 1/317 test programs. 0/9406 subtests failed - so not really a FAIL just bad test plan
moritz_ no, changed in r25809... 08:15
aye. TimToady removed 4 tests and decreased the plan by 2 08:16
pugs_svn r25814 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix plan in instance.t
moritz_ mikehh: thanks for notifying me
08:18 finanalyst joined
mikehh I've been building parrot a few times a day and try to build rakudo against it when I do - even if the tests take half-an-hour :-} 08:19
szabgab rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl}"
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«@x = [1, 2]ā¤Ā»
szabgab is there a way to reduce that further so I won't even have to write @x twice ? 08:20
08:20 ilogger2 joined
masak szabgab: put it in a sub. 08:20
szabgab rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl . @x.NAME}" 08:21
masak szabgab: also, consider escaping the first @x, for future's sake.
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ". @x.NAME}"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
masak szabgab: ~ is concatenation nowadays.
wayland76 rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl ~ @x.NAME}"
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Method 'NAME' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Array'ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 320 (src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:161)ā¤Ā»
masak oh, and NAME is not implemented yet. :)
wayland76 rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl ~ @x.WHAT}"
szabgab masak, escaping ? oh please no, don't tell me I can't rely on @x not being interpolated
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«@x = [1, 2]Arrayā¤Ā»
masak szabgab: sorry, my bad. 08:22
szabgab: it won't be.
szabgab: not unless you write @x[]
moritz_ aye
szabgab ah 08:23
08:23 lambdabot joined
szabgab masak, so how would you get back the name of the original variable from a sub ? 08:23
wayland76 phew :)
rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl ~ @x.name()}" 08:24
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Array'ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 320 (src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:161)ā¤Ā»
szabgab WHAT only gives the type
08:24 ujwalic joined
szabgab maybe we can have another method , eg @x.superl that will do that ? 08:25
moritz_ rakudo: my @x = <3 4 5>; my $s = \(@x); say $s.perl
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«["3", "4", "5"]ā¤Ā»
moritz_ rakudo: my @x = <3 4 5>; my $s = :(@x); say $s.perl 08:26
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expectedā¤current instr.: '_block14' pc 40 (EVAL_17:28)ā¤Ā»
masak szabgab: there's .VAR, but I'm not sure it does what you want either. 08:27
lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
wayland76 I can't find anything for getting the name
masak lambdabot: you're getting annoying now.
@clear
lambdabot Messages cleared.
szabgab rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.perl . @x.VAR}" 08:28
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ". @x.VAR}\""ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
szabgab rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = [@x.VAR}"
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«@x = [@x.VAR}ā¤Ā»
szabgab rakudo: my @x = (1, 2); say "@x = {@x.VAR}"
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«@x = 1 2ā¤Ā»
szabgab needs coffein
08:29 Tene joined
wayland76 Is that a coffin for French vampires? :) 08:29
(Yes, I know you meant caffeine)
masak language is hard, let's go shopping! 08:30
wayland76 I remember there were some GI Joe dolls that apparently had that installed in their voiceboxes by accident
szabgab rakudo: sub coffin(@a){say @a.VAR}; my @x = (1, 2); coffin(@x) 08:31
wayland76 Although the Barbies with macho voices were probably funnier :)
08:31 renormalist joined
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«12ā¤Ā» 08:31
masak hasta la vista, Barbie!
szabgab wayland76, I was using Hungarian notation 08:32
actually that would be koffein I think
wayland76 And here was me thinking it was really just a typo :)
08:33 jferrero joined
mikehh moritz_: that test passes now 08:36
Matt-W Morning 08:59
masak lifts hat at Matt-W 09:00
Matt-W This morning's Form.pm progress report: I crashed Rakudo 09:01
masak yay!
that's the spirit.
Matt-W heh 09:02
but it's okay
masak considers giving Matt-W a badge saying "I crash Rakudo today, so it won't crash for you tomorrow"
Matt-W I created RT #63826
masak Matt-W++
Matt-W lol isn't that your job?
masak I'm willing to share the burden. 09:03
or rather, I'm happy when others help parallelize the crashing.
excellent bug report. short and to the point. 09:04
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Matt-W it was nice and easy 09:06
I was delighted when it was reproducible with such a small test case 09:07
masak that's often the case. 09:08
I've been toying with the idea of reducing failures to minimal test cases with the help of Monte Carlo Markov Chain techniques.
Matt-W sounds like the kind of thing you could write a paper on 09:09
masak now there's an idea.
moritz_ it took me ages to reduce RT #63596 to a small test case
masak moritz_: aye, looks involved. 09:10
I remember #62828 with fondness. 09:11
moritz_ and the 'my' was actually not intentional, so you can imagine how bad I felt after spending 20 minutes on isolating it :/
masak the one thing you want cloned objects _not_ to do is change along with the originals! 09:12
moritz_: a good Perl 6 linter would catch that extra 'my'.
moritz_ masak: I look forward to it :-) 09:15
masak moritz_: I'd tell you more, but I would have to kill you. ;) 09:16
let's just say I have more secret projects now than I'd like. 09:17
Matt-W I've started thinking about how to do word wrapping 09:23
moritz_ masak: being killed doesn't exactly sound like -Ofun to me :-)
Matt-W Even pulling as many whole words off the front of a string as will fit into a given number of characters is potentially fraught with difficulty :( 09:24
Text is hard
masak moritz_: I think some AI database somewhere has a triplet saying "Dying is disadvantageous." I've always liked that phrasing.
wayland76 Have to port Text::Autoformat first :)
Matt-W wayland76: maybe 09:25
Certainly some of this background stuff could credibly go into another module
masak wayland76: I find that modules tend to bud off from other modules when the need arises. at least with my projects.
I factor things out when two projects need the same code. 09:26
and proto takes care of my build dependencies nowadays.
Matt-W I need a proper makefile.pl as well 09:27
at some point
Matt-W grumbles about build systems
masak Matt-W: oh, it's no biggie. just let yourself be inspired by November or Druid. 09:28
wayland76 Don't you have to write some code after? :)
Matt-W I looked at both of them
neither seem to be appropriate
masak Matt-W: oh? please elaborate. 09:29
Matt-W well I couldn't see anything that kicks off the test harness
masak no?
masak gets link
Matt-W and it all seems to be assuming you have a parrot/languages/rakudo
masak Matt-W: aye.
Matt-W which I don't 09:30
I have a rakudo/parrot
masak oh.
I see now.
yes, that might actually be a problem.
we need to standardize on something that allows both.
please let's keep in touch about this. :)
Matt-W yes 09:31
but I got the implication there was stuff about test suites in it
masak as we speak, I'm reconfiguring proto to install Rakudo Vienna with Parrot in it by default.
Matt-W and I didn't see that
masak Matt-W: hold on.
Matt-W thinks about work for a bit
masak Matt-W: github.com/viklund/november/blob/5d...ile.in#L24 09:32
Matt-W oh no I have a meeting in 28 minutes!!!
prove?
and I'm sure that bit wasn't there earlier
Matt-W cleans his glasses 09:33
masak Matt-W: there's Makefile.PL and there's Makefile.in
Matt-W yes
I see you compile everything to PIR
masak natuarlly.
Matt-W bet that speeds up test invocations 09:34
masak s/ar/ra/
Matt-W: it does, and startup times too.
Matt-W so what's prove?
masak Matt-W: it's a Perl tool for running test suites.
we just hijack it for Perl 6 tests. 09:35
Matt-W because the output format is the same
right
masak search.cpan.org/dist/Test-Harness/bin/prove
Matt-W I'll go for that then
I need to reorganise my tests a bit
need one set for testing the data structures used for parsed fields
moritz_ newer prove's have the --perl option
masak Matt-W: I hope we'll be able to reach a consensus about this such that proto can install Form and run the tests on it. 09:36
Matt-W oh yes I'm sure we will
masak great.
Matt-W the only reason my system is as it is at the moment is that I just threw it together to get something I could use
and it's not great in any way at all
but I wanted to write some code, not scream at make
masak aye.
it'll get easier with time, as we get the tools. 09:37
Matt-W but we are going to need a Makefile.PL that can handle parrot-in-rakudo
although does it really need to care
it just needs to know where the perl6 fakecutable is
masak well, it needs to find Rakudo :)
aye.
Matt-W so it doesn't need to know where parrot is
masak yes, if PARROT_DIR is set but RAKUDO_DIR isn't. 09:38
I sense there's a kind of fallback order here.
Matt-W unless there's some preference for using perl6.pbc over perl6
mmm
what about if rakudo is in PATH
masak Matt-W: that should probably also be a fallback.
the .pbc thing, that is.
Matt-W: if Rakudo is in PATH, we still won't find Test.pm 09:39
Matt-W true
masak I think RAKUDO_DIR is sort of a minimal requirement.
Matt-W although really Test.pm should be findable through some sort of standard Perl 6 library location thingy
:P 09:40
masak PERL6LIB, yes.
but in order to set that automatically, we need RAKUDO_DIR
Matt-W mmm
masak or PARROT_DIR, and a heuristic for getting the Rakudo dir from that.
Matt-W if no RAKUDO_DIR, look in PARROT_DIR/languages/rakudo 09:41
if no PARROT_DIR either, erase the hard drive
oh no, the other thing
oh yes
complain
masak right.
Matt-W no problem
I can produce one for form that does that this evening 09:42
for once I have no concerts or music lessons or aikido classes to go to tonight
masak cool.
I'll see if I get the proto change in by then.
Matt-W :)
I do intend Form to be proto-compatible fairly soon
masak it's about time it started targeting Parrot-in-Rakudo-Vienna.
Matt-W even though it won't be usable for some time
Matt-W likes Configure.pl --gen-parrot 09:43
takes the effort out of it
masak I'm not sure I can call any of my projects "usable" yet. :)
perhaps Druid.
Matt-W although I'd like to be able to give -j2 to its make invocation
heh 09:44
well the plan is to get Form usable for basic things reasonably soon
the text wrapping algorithm is the major difficulty right now
masak just keep it simple. 09:45
Matt-W can always making it more elaborate later if necessary
masak aye.
Matt-W patches always welcome...
:P
masak heh 09:46
Matt-W I've got almost everything I need to find the last word break in the string and split there
what I need is to deal with the case where there are no suitable breaks within the size of the field 09:47
Matt-W suddenly realises he could do a much better job of this with a nice Perl 6 rule 09:48
masak rules rule. 09:49
Matt-W oh yes 09:51
according to S05, << is a left word boundary, and >> is a right word boundary
exactly what I need
Matt-W sends himself an email to remind himself to do that 09:52
I suppose I should be thinking about what to say in this meeting now 09:53
See you later 09:54
<- boring meeting &
masak Matt-W: \o 09:56
masak notices that he has started assuming dashes-in-var-names in Perl 5 09:57
moritz_ hey, let's write a patch to allow that 09:59
moritz_ can imagine the outcries from #p5p
I did a quick codesearch with google 10:01
it wouldn't break compatilbility in normal code, since nearly nobody uses $var-subcall without spaces
but in interpolation it's quite frequent
=> no easy way to introduce that in perl 5. 10:02
10:03 mberends joined
masak mberends: greetings. 10:04
mberends: I've finally started the review of the Pod suite. 10:05
pmichaud++ expressed interest in seeing such a blog entry, so I got motivated to start it.
mberends masak: greetings. last night I confirmed all my bookings for Nordic Perl Workshop
masak mberends: excellent.
I should do the same. :)
mberends all: I have booked a room at the Anker with 2 single beds (marginal extra cost), in case someone would like to share 10:06
masak hm, sounds like a plan. how do I go about doing that? 10:07
wayland76 perl5: $variable-14
:)
moritz_ notice that \w-\d isn't allowed in perl 6 variables either 10:08
mberends ( afk $class ) 10:09
wayland76 moritz_: That would solve it :) 10:11
moritz_ wayland76: that solves it. 10:13
masak watches proto successfully download and build Rakudo Vienna 10:15
10:18 shinobi-cl joined
masak here's how it looks: gist.github.com/78515 10:20
moritz_ that looks like a nice interface :-) 10:21
masak we aim hard to please. :)
moritz_ I know some software that's written from psychologists for psychologists. Most of the target audience is pretty computer illiterate... 10:22
masak next up, I think, will be progress bar dots showing how a download/build progresses.
moritz_ so all of the more frequent error messages are really soft formulated, with lots of "... but it's not so bad, we can fix it for you" and so on :-) 10:23
masak moritz_: I think that might be a good idea in many cases.
jnthn good morning, all
Rakudo day is here.
masak jnthn: good morning! Rakudo day! :) 10:24
moritz_ YaY!
10:26 shinobi-cl left
masak jnthn: what's planned for today? 10:26
jnthn masak: pmichaud assigned me a flurry to tickets yesterday, which I plan to look through. 10:27
Also, he wanted me to do a small refactor on dispatchy stuff.
I'm open to suggestions if you have any tickets that especially matter to you, though.
moritz_ would very much like to see make() work in action methods 10:28
but I guess that's a pmichaud topic
jnthn I thought we already did have an implementation of make?
Though I may be mistaking a patch sent in for a patch applied.. 10:29
masak jnthn: I don't have anything critical that needs fixing right now. 10:30
10:30 rgs joined
jnthn masak: OK, cool. 10:30
masak jnthn: but I did have two tickets that sort of resurfaced in my mind lately. will dig them out, and maybe we can at least talk about them. :)
jnthn OK, sounds good.
jnthn tries to figure out how to make RT tell him what tickets are assigned to him, and realizes he needs coffee before much else... 10:31
moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { token TOP { . {*} } }; class AA { method TOP(*@a) { make 3; } }; A.parse('f', :action(AA.new)); 10:33
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Method 'result_object' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'ā¤current instr.: 'make' pc 19145 (src/builtins/match.pir:39)ā¤Ā»
moritz_ jnthn: that's what I meant
jnthn: the starting page ("RT at a glance") shows you the top 10 priority tickets assigned to you 10:34
rgs has a quick question
(hi there)
moritz_ hi rgs
rgs does/should undef ~~ 0 and undef ~~ "" match ?
masak doesn't think so
moritz_ thinks so
masak :)
oh wait.
moritz_ rakudo: say undef ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤1ā¤Ā»
moritz_ rakudo: say undef ~~ '' 10:35
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤1ā¤Ā»
moritz_ so yes, both match
rgs ok, good
masak I've changed my mind. they should match. :P
rgs rakudo: say 0 ~~ undef
moritz_ rgs: the type of the RHS determines the comparison
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«0ā¤Ā»
rgs moritz_: will do the same in P5 then.
moritz_ rgs++
masak jnthn: the tickets are #60142 and #62730. incidentally, both have their roots in Parrot, I think.
moritz_ and ~~ undef is a negated test for definedness 10:36
jnthn rgs: To quote the spec: Any Str string equality ~$_ eq X 10:37
What that's saying is that you co-erce the LHS to a string.
Well, stringify it...
And ~undef is ""
And similar for the number case. 10:38
I'd imagine an implementation can follow pretty directly from that definition, but then I don't know Perl 5 guts. ;-)
moritz_ actuall ~undef is ('' but Warning) :-)
jnthn moritz_: By Rakudo, or by spec? 10:39
moritz_ jnthn: that wasn't entirely serious
jnthn Ah, OK.
I was hoping you would point at the appropriate bit of the spec. :-P
moritz_ anyway, perl 5 has dualvars
that's going to be ugly
what kind of comparison will $stuff ~~ dualvar(3, 'b') do? 10:40
rgs in Perl 5 ? 10:41
moritz_ rgs: yes
in Perl 6 there are only junctions, and they have explicit comparison semantics
rgs numerical values have precedence
moritz_ ah, simple as that :-) 10:42
rgs in guts terms, it will test for IOK / NOK first.
wayland76 I have a message for those who weren't sure about detecting different distros: linuxmafia.com/faq/Admin/release-files.html
jnthn masak: About 60142 10:44
I think it's a Parrot bug. Allison IIRC did disagree with me. :-| 10:45
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masak jnthn: interesting. 10:46
as long as it gets fixed, you may disagree as much as you want about the cause... :)
jnthn masak: I'm trying to find the related ticket in Parrot... 10:47
Gah, can't. Hmm 10:49
mberends masak: Nice proto gist. Pegging a parrot svn revision is easy, but how to specify a particular (known good) Rakudo revision? 10:50
masak mberends: during which stage? I'm not sure I understand the question. 10:51
jnthn rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=61224
masak mberends: you mean in config.proto? I suppose by a sufficient amount of SHA1 hex digits. 10:53
mberends when proto fetches the Vienna Rakudo, how to tell git to clone a specific rakudo version.
masak mberends: oh. it downloads the tarball.
mberends yes, the SHA1 is so bulky and not serial /sequential
masak I have a working patch here in a local branch.
about to push now.
mberends ok
cannot pull, sorry. $work has only mibbit this week. 10:54
masak no prob. 10:55
mberends: I hope to be able to finish the review of Pod during the weekend. I expect to fork you and send a lot of pull requests.
mberends ok, thanks. Would you like to share my Best Western hotel room 15-19 April? 10:56
masak mberends: aye, gladly. how do I do that? should I contact the hotel? 10:57
jnthn "I expect to fork you"..."would you like to share my hotel room"...
<ducks>
mberends I booked a room with 2 single beds. You just have to wait until I check in, about 22:00 on 15 April. 10:59
11:00 pnu joined
mberends lunch & 11:00
masak jnthn: *lol* 11:01
pnu i've trouble building a fresh rakudo checkout on rhel5, any advice..? Building parrot (during perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot) seg-faults with Perl6Grammar.pir.
masak mberends: oh, so basically, everythings fixed, and we just split the cost of the room? 11:02
pnu: could you nopaste the make output?
11:04 ruoso joined
pnu masak: here nopaste.snit.ch/15874 11:05
moritz_ that looks a lot like older parrot on amd64 with --optimize 11:07
lunch &
masak moritz_: that's just uncanny.
how do you know those things? :)
pnu moritz_: Linux version 2.6.18-128.1.1.el5 (mockbuild@hs20-bc1-5.build.redhat.com) (gcc version 4.1.2 20080704 (Red Hat 4.1.2-44)) #1 SMP Mon Jan 26 13:59:00 EST 2009 11:08
s1n if it's amd64, why is it using "-march=i386" 11:09
ruoso Hello!
masak ruoso: oh hai 11:10
wayland76 ruoso: Was it you that was saying it'd be difficult to detect distros reliably? 11:11
ruoso yes
s1n wayland76: if ruoso didn't say that, i raised that question in my response to a commit you made
pnu is there anything i can do to help with this..? 11:12
ruoso wayland76, and also, the "distro" concept only makes sense in the Linux world 11:13
s1n wayland76: that's why i recommend changing $*DISTRO back to OS (iirc that's how it's referred to in p6) 11:14
pugs_svn r25815 | masak++ | [u4x/README] fixed typo 11:15
11:19 bacek joined
ruoso s1n, better than OS, ARCH 11:20
wayland76 ruoso: Not sure I agree. I'd argue that the term "Operating System" is too ill-defined to be useful, and that just because Windows is the name of both a kernel and a distro is no reason to lose the distinction
ruoso OS is just a part of the ARCH information
pnu masak: oh i noticed this during parrot configure initialization: Determine JIT capability...p = 0x9323000 PAGE_SIZE = 4096 (0x1000) ... failure: Permission denied -- and thats selinux. Now it works.
sorry for not disabling that awful thing (selinux), should've known that.
ruoso wayland76, The term DISTRO doesn't make sense in other operating systems as well 11:21
it actually only makes sense in Linux, basically
wayland76 Not BSD?
I'd argue that the term "OS" doesn't make sense for Linux :) 11:22
s1n i'd argue otherwise
unless you are in the "GNU/Linux" camp
11:22 jferrero left
s1n and arch is useful, but does not imply OS 11:23
ruoso wayland76, the term "OS" in linux *usually* means linux-gnu
wayland76 Well, I think the GNU/Linux people have a point; Linux is the kernel along
ruoso s1n, the OS information is part of the arch infromation
s1n ruoso: tell me what i'm running here then: Linux citadel 2.6.28 #3 SMP Fri Jan 16 22:13:42 CST 2009 x86_64 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
that's my actual uname information 11:24
11:24 ejs joined
ruoso s1n, x86_64-linux-gnu 11:24
s1n ruoso: that's not my os
11:24 WootKit joined
ruoso exactly 11:24
s1n or my distro
ruoso that's your ARCH
s1n so while that is useful, but it's not the os/distro
ruoso it contains both the CPU and the OS
distro simply doesn't make sense outside of linux, so I don't think it's worth being spec 11:25
11:25 WootKit left
s1n ruoso: my os is not "linux-gnu", sorry, that's completely worthless in linux 11:25
ruoso s1n, er... worthless in what sense?
that's what gcc uses
for instance
that's what binutils use
s1n doesn't mean anything to an application developer needing to know if you're redhat or opensuse 11:26
ruoso s1n, that developer needs a library
which is Linux-specific
s1n that developer is wanting that from $*DISTRO or $*OS
i'm not saying arch isn't useful, but sometimes we need to go beyond that 11:27
ruoso s1n, do you actually realize how hard it is to figure out that?
in a portable manner
s1n ruoso: yes, i do realize that
ruoso ok.. my point is... take that to a library
wayland76 I don't. See linuxmafia.com/faq/Admin/release-files.html
ruoso no reason to be part of the CORE
wayland76 ruoso may well be right about this not being part of the core though 11:28
s1n ruoso: i might agree with that
but i definitely don't like having $*DISTRO over $*OS
ruoso that's not what I meant
I meant ARCH over OS
11:28 WootKit joined
ruoso because ARCH *includes* OS information 11:28
wayland76 Not as currently specced :) 11:29
s1n ruoso: i'll take arch, but it doesn't include OS
ruoso s1n, "redhat" is not OS
"linux-gnu" is
s1n nope
ruoso "linux-uclibc" is
s1n RedHat Linux
ruoso s1n, er... do you understand what the "linux-gnu" means in the arch triplet? 11:30
s1n don't sully the good name of Linux by tacking on RMS's "GNU"
wayland76 ruoso: I think s1n just made my point about OS being too ill-defined :)
ruoso s1n, it's not about that
it's about using the GNU Libc
which redhat does
s1n ruoso: yes, i do understand that it's a flavor of the linux kernel, so what
ruoso IT'S NOT
you have two things
one is the kernel 11:31
other is the userlevel library
wayland76 s1n: libc is a library that contains the basic C functions. It is *not* supplied as part of the kernel
s1n if you're referring to what gcc reports, sure
wayland76 ruoso: is it only libc, or some others?
s1n i have only ever talked about uname example
ruoso libc is the thing that defines the arch, yes
s1n, that's because you're not hearing what I'm saying
s1n when i build a gentoo system, i can really mess things up, here's how: 11:32
i can use the binary linux kernel, build libc for say amd64
ruoso *sigh* 11:33
s1n then i can really dork it up by building a i386 kernel
the more interesting case is the opposite
ruoso that's the CPU
s1n running the kernel built for amd64 with libc built for 386
wayland76 Lets try this. (linux = kernel) (gnu = libc) kernel is pretty useless without libc. What do you call it when you use both these basic components?
ruoso that's the CPU
the ARCH is CPU-PLATFORM-OS
where PLATFORM is usually implied as "pc"
s1n i guess you've never built both 386 and amd64 libc's 11:34
ruoso *sigh*
you're simply not getting the point
s1n i am, you aren't
i can have both
11:34 WootKit left
wayland76 I think you're both not getting each other's points 11:34
ruoso we are not arguing about CPU
s1n libc built for multiple platforms, which platform am i then?
ruoso s1n, at the platform your current binary is linked to 11:35
it cannot be linked to both libcs at the same time
s1n i have to go to work now though, continue without me
wayland76 ruoso: Does my point about certain words not being well-agreed-upon ring true :) 11:37
ruoso s1n, was simply not reading anything I was writing 11:38
wayland76 Having said that, I think s1n may have a better grip on things than Wikipedia :)
ruoso: I think he was, just not carefully. I was arguing on both sides depending on the mood of the moment :)
Anyway, there's a thunderstorm here, so I'm going to shut down my computers 11:39
s1n parting words, arch is useful only to the point of knowing what it was built against, not what the system truly is, which would be a nightmare to identify, talk amongst yourselves :) 11:44
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ruoso s1n, you're still seeing DISTRO as OS... but these are different things 11:45
"RedHat" is not "OS"
jnthn
.oO( Some discussions make the Win32 world seem oh so nice and easy. )
 11:46
;-)
Does Perl 6 core really want to have to care about identifying distro? 11:47
ruoso I think it doesn't
jnthn IMO, that's something for a 6PAN module.
ruoso that's my point about DISTRO
jnthn As a Perl 6 implementer, keeping up with distro detection is *not* something I want to have to care about.
Not to mention the cases where you'd need that level of info feel to me few and far between. 11:48
ruoso my point is: the only thing you can really know is the arch triplet
so I argue for using $?ARCH, $?XARCH and $*ARCH 11:50
rgs xarch ?
ruoso cross compilation 11:51
$?ARCH is the target arch
$?XARCH is the host arch 11:52
$*ARCH is the current arch
rgs good
11:55 ujwalic left 11:58 ejs left
pnu i'm sorry this is such an open topic, but what's a good stating point if i want to contribute to rakudo project..? I'm experienced with perl but don't have clue about parrot etc. I read somewhere that some perl6 features could be implemented to rakudo in perl6 already? 12:00
moritz_ pnu: they can. See rakudo.org/2009/02/rakudo-built-ins...be-wr.html for example 12:02
pnu: also read rakudo.org/developers-guide 12:03
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pnu moritz_: yes, that was it.. ok, thanks. 12:05
pugs_svn r25816 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Tests for using roles as type constraints. 12:08
ruoso std: sub foo(1,2,3) {...} 12:11
p6eval std 25816: OUTPUTĀ«ok 00:02 35mā¤Ā»
dalek kudo: 88b6c25 | jnthn++ | src/classes/Role.pir:
Various fixes to using roles as type constraints. Resolves at least RT#62966.
ruoso rakudo: multi foo(1) { say 1 }; multi foo(2) { say 2 }; foo(1); foo(2); foo(3); 12:12
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near "foo(1) { s"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
jnthn Heh
ruoso jnthn, is that already known?
masak ruoso: can I submit a rakudobug on that?
jnthn I didn't even know that was valid syntax... :-P
moritz_ rakudo: multi foo($ where 1) { 1 }, multi foo($ where 2) { 2 }; foo($_) for 1..3
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'foo'ā¤current instr.: '_block53' pc 602 (EVAL_20:231)ā¤Ā» 12:13
moritz_ rakudo: multi foo($ where 1) { 1 }, multi foo($ where 2) { 2 }; foo($_) for 1..2
p6eval rakudo 087e29: RESULTĀ«Method 'HOW' not found for invocant of class 'Iterator'ā¤current instr.: '_block14' pc 77 (EVAL_20:44)ā¤Ā»
moritz_ rakudo: multi foo($ where 1) { 1 }, multi foo($ where 2) { 2 }; say foo($_) for 1..2
p6eval rakudo 087e29: OUTPUTĀ«1ā¤2ā¤Ā»
moritz_ std: multi foo(1) { 1 };
masak NoirSoldats: what does the comma do?
p6eval std 25816: OUTPUTĀ«ok 00:02 35mā¤Ā»
masak oops.
moritz_: what does the comma do?
moritz_ which comma? 12:14
jnthn Why on earth does the comma work?!
moritz_ ah
masak moritz_: the one between your subs.
moritz_ I meant to use a ;
ruoso std: multi foo($ where 1) { 1 }, multi foo($ where 2) { 2 }; say foo($_) for 1..2
moritz_ because it's a statement list in void context?
masak ok, how many rakudobugs does this amount to? :)
p6eval std 25816: OUTPUTĀ«ok 00:03 38mā¤Ā»
moritz_ masak: -1
pnu moritz_: oh, this is great! is it planned to implement all in classes/*.pir finally?
moritz_ pnu: most, probably not all
masak surely one for the sub foo(1) { ... } case, no? 12:15
jnthn pnu: Maybe not *all*, but...what moritz_ said.
ruoso masak, I guess so...
masak submits
jnthn Does the spec say you can do that?
moritz_ dunno
masak screw the spec! STD says it's ok. :)
moritz_ never seen that syntax
pnu ok, but at least a prototype for testing the specs and then maybe port to pir.. is a good practice? 12:16
ruoso jnthn, well, it's a fantastic syntax...
moritz_ what do you want to port to pir?
ruoso much better than "$ where 1"
moritz_ ruoso: it's a lot like haskellian pattern matching
masak jnthn: I remember requesting that syntax on NPW2008. :)
pnu moritz_: an imaginary method i implement in settings some day.. :-)
ruoso specially for the multi-reduce web.pm dispatcher 12:17
masak indeed.
moritz_ pnu: if you implement it in the setting, no need to backport it to pir. that's what compilers are there for :-)
masak boy, do I have something to write about on Sunday! :)
"we introduced new syntax in Perl 6 so that we could write a nicer dispatcher" 12:18
jnthn I agree it's nice syntax, just wondered ifit's spec'd.
ruoso implement it, we push it in later ;)
masak agreed. :)
jnthn Will look at STD.pm and see what it parses it as, anyway...
pnu moritz_: ok :-) and after recompiling rakudo, things written in setting start to work? (ok, maybe i'll stop asking and just try it my self..)
jnthn I'm a little surprised it does, but in theory it's easy to get Rakudo to handle it.
pnu: Yes.
moritz_ pnu: if you did right, it works :-) 12:19
pmichaud good morning, #perl6
jnthn morning, pmichaud
moritz_ good morning rakudo hacker No. 1 :-)
masak morning, pmichaud
jnthn Damm, pm is awake and I only fixed one bug so far!
pnu jnthn: this is wonderful! :)
moritz_ I must be sick. Yesterday night I dreamed that TPF missed the application deadline for gsoc :) 12:20
ruoso pmichaud, jnthn, does rakudo provide a way to programatically define a new multi and add the variants?
jnthn pmichaud: Will do the dispatch refactor soon, just hunting through RT for any related tickets to the fix I just did on roles as type checks...
ruoso: Well, I guess you can eval it...
ruoso meh 12:21
pmichaud jnthn: no problem
jnthn ruoso: Of course we do have ways under the hood, for sure...
ruoso let me explain
jnthn But nothing exposed AFAIK.
ruoso in the web.pm multi dispatcher thing
there's no reason to expose the multi in any namespace 12:22
it's probably better to just hold it into a variable
so @url-parts.reduce: &multi; later
and as we're probably having a sub-grammar to declare that 12:23
it sounds like a requirement to be able to define a new multi object and add the variants when parsing that sub-grammar
jnthn One related question I had on all of this is 12:24
multi foo() { }; foo.WHAT.say # what do we get?
Multi? or Sub?
ruoso you mean &foo.WHAT
jnthn Yes
ruoso I'd guess Multi 12:25
masak Multi sounds a bit saner.
jnthn Good. :-)
Well in that case
my $x = Multi.new; push $x, sub ($x, $y) { ; # after declaring a proto-object creation for Perl6MutliSub PMC may just work off the bat.
emm, missing a }
ruoso Cool... 12:26
jnthn Since that's essentially all we do internally.
In a related question
Do we not define .signature on Multi?
But rather you ahve to iterate .candidates ?
ruoso jnthn, I don't think s
jnthn OK, good.
masak rakudo: Multi.new 12:27
p6eval rakudo 88b6c2: OUTPUTĀ«Could not find non-existent sub Multiā¤current instr.: '_block14' pc 53 (EVAL_16:38)ā¤Ā»
ruoso maybe .signature returns a Junction of the signature
of each candidate
jnthn I thought about that and then thought...hmm...do we really want to do that...
:-)
But yes, it was my obvious answer for if we're going to have signature.
masak why is a junction preferable to a simple list?
ruoso jnthn, we still need to deal with varying arity in the multi for reduce
masak, because it preserves the API 12:28
masak and, would it be a conjunction or a disjunction? :)
jnthn disjunction is probably more useful.
moritz_ a weirdjunction
ruoso you usually need to know if at least one of them match
masak right.
disjunction, then.
12:28 rmt_ joined
jnthn e.g. you can check if it's possible to bind a capture to any of the signatures - at least in principle...though of course that's not the way a multi-dispatch actually does it internally. 12:28
I guess .arity is then a junction of all the possible arities.... 12:29
Not sure how that plays with .reduce though!
moritz_ well
if you look at how it's implemented atm
ruoso jnthn, we need a way to say "do a partial match and tell me how many items you consumed" 12:31
so @foo.reduce: &multi; works as expected
I was thinking that could be a named parameter to .postcircumfix:<( )> 12:32
jnthn That feels...odd. 12:33
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moritz_ since it can have named parameters themselves 12:34
ruoso moritz_, the signature for .postcircumfix:<( )> is already ($capture), not (|$capture)
SMOP already takes advantage of that to receive :$cc
method postcircumfix:<( )> ($capture, :$partial-sig-match ) { ... } 12:38
where we could assume that passing that argument would require you to declare 12:39
my $partial-sig-match-count is context<rw>;
12:40 finanalyst joined
ruoso that... or we need "RWIterator ~~ Signature" 12:40
hmm
actually... that doesn't solve much... we need the signatures to be evaluated inside the multi 12:41
maybe...
when passing :partial-sig-match, it would expect the capture to be a RWIterator 12:42
and pushback items when necessary
so you can send the iterator to the next invocation...
jnthn Sounds a tad messy. 12:43
ruoso but I think the RWIterator is the way to go
12:44 renormalist left
ruoso we just need a good way to tell the Callable that 12:44
ruoso goes to sketch something about RWIterator in S07 12:46
masak ruoso: excuse me, but what's an RWIterator? 12:49
ruoso Read-Write Iterator
masak I guessed that. what is it that can be read and written? 12:50
ruoso ok... we might need to qualify the name a bit more 12:52
jnthn OK, now in my local rakudo
> multi foo() { 1 }
> say &foo.WHAT
Multi
> &foo.push(sub ($x) { 2 })
> say foo(); say foo(42);
1
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `1'
Not in scope: `say' precedence parsing error
cannot mix `(&)' [...
<no location info>: parse error on input `;'
<no location info>: parse error on input `&'
jnthn 2
Matt-W moritz_: not read all the backlog, but make operates on the current $/, so you have to call the parameter for your action methods $/, then it works nicely. This may not be ideal, but that's how it goes at the moment...
jnthn ...thanks, lambdabot...
Matt-W moritz_: see Form.pm for example
jnthn ruoso: Does that look like what you wre thinking?
ruoso masak, maybe we need to name it Iterator::PushBack for that specific meaning
masak jnthn: cool! 12:53
ruoso: I'm still not sure what it is you're building.
ruoso: an iterator that can... what?
ruoso jnthn, yes... just missing Multi.new
masak, that you can consume the value, see it doesn't fit and push it back to the iterator
so it can be consumed again 12:54
masak ruoso: like a sort of peek() function?
ruoso peek?
rgs poke 12:55
moritz_ Matt-W: repo URL?
man, github is slower than perlmonks right now 12:56
masak moritz_: github.com/mattw/form/
ruoso masak, rgs, yeah.. something like that
Matt-W masak++ 12:57
moritz_ Matt-W: thanks
Matt-W remembering my url before I do
masak moritz_: np. :)
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moritz_ ah, masak++ is was 12:57
well, still Matt-W++ for writing the code :-)
masak Matt-W: not so much remembering as using the Firefox awesomebar. 12:58
Matt-W pmichaud++ for telling me how to make it work
masak: shush or you'll ruin it
masak pmichaud++ for teaching me the original trick.
jnthn Gah. Rakudo's Perl6MultiSub inherits from Parrot#s MultiSub which thanks to history rather than sanity inherits from ResizablePMCArray...which makes Rakudo thing it's doing an array assignment. Damm! 13:00
Matt-W argh 13:01
masak perhaps time to abandon history for sanity? :) 13:02
that's what we tend to do in Perl 6.
Matt-W I'm failing to see why MultiSub isa ResizablePMCArray 13:03
it doesn't seem like that's what inheritance is supposed to be for :)
moritz_ remebers a great lord-of-the-rings (the movie) quote that can be adopted here :-)
jnthn > my $x = Multi.new; $x.push(sub { say 1 }); $x.push(sub ($a) { say 2 }); $x(); $x(42); 13:04
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `='
jnthn 1
2
masak moritz_: "Fly, you fools!"? :)
jnthn ruoso, masak: Look good for your dispatcher? :-)
moritz_ Gandalf to Saruman as he discovers the latter's treason: `tell me, "friend": when did Saruman the wise reason for madness'
masak jnthn: indeed. 13:05
pugs_svn r25817 | ruoso++ | [spec] Add Iterator::PushBack to S07
moritz_ with s/reason/history/
jnthn masak: It also fixes
moritz_ s/madness/sanity/
ruoso jnthn, looks perfect :)
jnthn rakudo: multi foo { }; say &foo.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 88b6c2: OUTPUTĀ«Null PMC access in find_method()ā¤current instr.: '_block14' pc 79 (EVAL_17:43)ā¤Ā»
moritz_ what follows was cool but slightly ridiculous fight :-)
jnthn Which in my local now says Multi
masak moritz_: agreed.
moritz_ cool
jnthn++
masak jnthn++
jnthn ruoso++ for badgering me into it ;-) 13:06
ruoso now we just need to be able to use multis with different arity in @foo.reduce
ruoso points to his last commit in S07 and asks for evaluation
13:09 ejs left
jnthn > for &foo.candidates { .signature.perl.say } 13:09
:()
:(Any $x)
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `.'
13:09 ejs joined
masak now we just need to make it seem like this was in the spec the whole time. :P 13:09
jnthn ftw
masak: Hey, I have a commit bit to the spec ;-)
masak jnthn: hey, me too! :) 13:10
this is too easy. :P
jnthn Forgiveness. Permission.
;-)
ruoso hmmm...
maybe it can simply be a different method of Callable 13:11
masak jnthn: if you don't put it in today, I will tomorrow.
ruoso that receives an Iterator::PushBack
moritz_ if it's a multi, * would be the better signature to return
"signature" that is :-)
jnthn moritz_: How so?
ruoso hmm... so it can DWIM when you $capture ~~ $signature 13:12
jnthn moritz_: Note there that I am iterating over the candidates and printing the .perl of their signatures
moritz_ it's a placeholder for whatever
jnthn: ah
jnthn: I got that wrong then
ruoso $multi.signature could return a closure
jnthn moritz_: I'm more inclined to have a junction of all possible signatures though...
A closure?
ruoso so you can still do $capture ~~ $signature
moritz_ a junction would be nice
ruoso but it would then be handled by code that belongs to Multi 13:13
jnthn ruoso: You could still do that with a junction.
moritz_ because it reflects the unorderedness
jnthn moritz_: Right.
ruoso jnthn, the junction is external to the Multi
jnthn ruoso: So?
So is the signature ;-)
ruoso if you have more than one match, the Multi might want to choose the candidate
jnthn ruoso: Please let's not confuse "is there any signature that could possibly match" with "is a dispatch possible?" 13:14
Those are two completely separate questions.
ruoso ok...
jnthn But this confusion is why I'm kinda half-hearted about putting .signature on Multi. 13:15
ruoso my question really is "is a dispatch possible? and how many arguments that represent?|
jnthn At all.
Because people may confuse the two as well.
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ruoso but I think a different invoke method for this would be ok 13:15
.partial-invoke($iterator) 13:16
vs .invoke($capture)
jnthn And $capture ~~ any(&foo.candidates).signature isn't so hard
And makes more explicit what is going on...
moritz_ ruoso: you are aware that it might need disambiguation?
if I have two multis, with ($, $) and ($, $, $) and do a partial application against a list, both match if it's long enough 13:17
ruoso that's precisely the reason I want it to be internal to the Multi
moritz_ I think the real problem is that there's no all-that-dwimmy disambituion rule 13:18
not that if we had one it would be hard to implement
jnthn ruoso: Are we sure that we're not trying to make some very general-purpose mechanism when we could just make .reduce handle this?
ruoso jnthn, map for and friends also need it
it is general-purpose indeed 13:19
masak ruoso: commit looks good.
ruoso &multi.invoke-iterating($iterator) 13:20
jnthn ruoso: Do you think making it possible to &multi.push blows away our "we know the set of multi-variatns in a given scope" thingy?
ruoso jnthn, I don't think so 13:21
you might need to "close" some multi objects at some point
jnthn Thing is, the set of multis can change now at runtime...
ruoso and it is erroneous to do that on multis aliased to lexical scopes
jnthn And for sure, Rakudo is clearing it's multi-cache so it ain't going to get weird...
ruoso: Meaning? 13:22
ruoso jnthn, you don't need to worry much if the user does it... changing a multi that is aliased to a lexical scope is defined to be undefined behavior, iirc 13:23
jnthn Ah, OK.
The "If you try and screw with it, it might screw you." principle. :-)
13:24 ejs joined
jnthn ejs: In Odessa? 13:25
jnthn was there like, recently... 13:26
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ruoso jnthn, so... what do you think about the .invoke-iterating($iterator) thing? 13:31
do you think it is possible?
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jnthn ruoso: Let me read your S07 tweaks in detail...just sorting this patch out... 13:33
ruoso EOUTOFCOFEE 13:35
jnthn ruoso: So what exactly are you proposing? That we invoke instead of with argumetns with an itereator, and it picks the candidate wanting the most args (up to the limit of those available in the iterator), grabs as many values from the iterator as are needed and then does the call with those? 13:38
ruoso In general, yes... 13:39
but I think it's up to the Multi to decide if it does LTM or not 13:40
because the topological sort still needs to be taken into account
jnthn Hmm 13:41
ruoso I think LTM might be an implicit disambiguator 13:42
jnthn It sounds like a "can we match with the maximum arity? no, then let's try the next one down", etc.
ruoso that's why it needs to be internal to the multi... 13:43
so that decision is not very hard to make later
dalek kudo: 76b2652 | jnthn++ | (3 files):
A bunch of multi-related changes. Perl6MultiSub is now mapped to Multi, so .WHAT works (spectest added, needs to make it into the specification but seems to have consensus on #perl6). Also defined .candidates, which has similar consensus, and .push which allows constructing a multi on-the-fly.
jnthn Well, a first cut could try with the max arity, and if it got a failed to call exception, retry with one less...
And that can be done external to the multi, though less efficiently... 13:44
ruoso and more static as well
doing it inside the multi allows each multi to override that behavior
which seems like a good plan if we're not sure which is the best way to do it
jnthn I still worry we might be making reduce too magical and it may be better for the dispatcher to specify its own that gets the semantics it wants. 13:47
(It's own reduce-ish algorithm, that is...)
OTOH, I can see an argument for making things like reduce handle multis sensibly somehow...
ruoso jnthn, on the contrary... reduce will simply call .invoke-iterating() 13:48
and that's not specific for multis
because there are optional arguments
so .invoke-iterating() is valid for only subs as well 13:49
jnthn hmmm 13:50
I think I'd rather delegate this one up to TimToady.
This is more a language design issue than an implementation one.
wayland76 ruoso++ for pushback :)
(err, Iterator::Pushback) 13:51
jnthn I'm more worried about making reduce odder from a user perspective rather than a guts one.
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ruoso jnthn, in what sense? 13:52
jnthn As in, is this going to do what people expect? Or are their expectaions on the dis-ambiguation too varied? 13:53
There's a time to not be too clever. But that's why I really want to hear input from @Larry on this.
ruoso jnthn, honestly, I think reduce with varying-arity is something that is going to be used by people that have read the manuals... it's not something a begginer will bump into 13:54
jnthn Aye, true. 13:55
I'm not against it, just think it needs a wider sanity check.
ruoso sure... my concern is wether this is actually do-able in rakudo in the short-term
since Web.pm is likely to require it 13:56
jnthn As a separate method, probably.
Well, Web.pm could write it's own reduce-ish thingy too. ;-)
The introspection is all there.
but yes, having the dispatcher expressed as one line of Perl 6 is neat. ;-)
ruoso but the point of using reduce and multi is precisely to use the Perl 6 core features...
otherwise we would go with the grammar idea 13:57
jnthn I don't know that it's all that hard to do in Rakudo.
Unless you need the pushback iterator stuff too... 13:58
ruoso I don't think you can implement it without the pushback iterator
otherwise you wouldn't have how to "undo" the item you consumed but didn't match
jnthn is invoke-iterating expected to work its way through the whole iterator? 13:59
ruoso no
jnthn oh
ruoso just that iteration
jnthn Just do one? 14:00
OK.
ruoso it's one invocation
jnthn Aha.
Now I see the need for the pushback then...
ruoso specially because reduce needs to do an extra push back
with the value of the last invocation
(which means this iterator needs to be writeable as well, not just pushback-able) 14:01
jnthn Hmm
again, probably not too hard to do, but I don't want to spend too much tuits on this until there's wide consensus that it's The Way To Go.
It's not all that hard, but it's not a 30 minutes hack either. 14:02
ruoso now it's time for the all mighty TimToady to throw a hammer
;)
jnthn Right. 14:03
I'd like to hear more generally thoughts from TimToady on S07. Like, is it generally the way to go, etc.
ruoso yeah... S07 needs more input... it's basically a copy of my thoughts yet... 14:04
pugs_svn r25818 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Test for .WHAT on a multi. 14:06
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ruoso what would be a good name for an iterator that can unshift values? 14:07
it would be interesting for it to be a specific role, because implementing only "unshift" is much easier than any other write operation 14:08
it kinda works as pushback, but it doesn't require the value to have been consumed from this iterator earlier 14:09
that's why it needs to be different than PushBack
Iterator::Unshift? 14:10
jnthn is pushback expected to keep track of previous values it provided?
so it knows that something used to be part of the iterator?
ruoso not really... it's "free" to refuse values that were not consumed from it
but that's not a requirement
it usually would mean that this iterator is backed by a immutable list 14:11
while Iterator::Unshift would mean that either the original list is mutable, or that the object provide a local stack 14:12
jnthn ah, OK 14:13
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jnthn I was expecting pushback would have a local stack. 14:13
ruoso jnthn, my idea of having two roles was to somehow say "expect to fail" or "expect to suceed"
(for values not coming in the correct order from this same iterator, that is) 14:14
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pugs_svn r25819 | ruoso++ | [spec] Add Iterator::Unshift to S07 14:22
frioux rakudo: 'frew'.split('',2)
p6eval rakudo 76b265: RESULTĀ«["f", "r", "e", "w"]Ā»
moritz_ that's wrong. 14:23
frioux yeah
it only does it for ''
moritz_ I know
because I special-cased it
frioux ah
haha, ok 14:24
well, I have to go to work
I just wanted to make sure I understood
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skids ruoso: "percolate"? or maybe "excrete" or "exude"? 14:31
ruoso hm?
skids You were looking for a name... 14:32
ruoso ah... I assumed Iterator::Unshift for now
jnthn ...excrete?
That sounds crap. 14:33
;-)
skids Yeah it was for humor.
:-)
Actually keeping things using the same old vocabulary is probably good, as long as the meaning is consistent.
Though now I really, really want to write some sort of filter for something and call it "percolator" just for the sake of it. 14:34
moritz_ rakudo: say "foo".substr(Inf) 14:36
p6eval rakudo 76b265: OUTPUTĀ«Cannot take substr outside stringā¤ā¤Ā»
[particle]1 rakudo: <foo>.substr(*).say 14:39
p6eval rakudo 76b265: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤fooā¤Ā»
[particle]1 rakudo: 'foo'.substr(*).say
p6eval rakudo 76b265: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤fooā¤Ā»
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jnthn Phew. The refactor pmichaud wanted has apparently been easy... 14:58
14:59 dollardumb joined
dollardumb anyone using the ilbot here? 15:00
gotta question on an unblessed reference
and AUTOLOAD for that matter
15:05 [particle]1 left
frioux_ moritz_: so why did you special case the '' split? 15:07
just curious
dollardumb moritz_ can I ask a question on ilbot install/config?
dalek kudo: 4be7d28 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 317 files, 7160 passing, 4 failing

   S06-multi/syntax.t aborted 1 test(s)
   S12-role/basic.t 27 - attributes typed as roles initialized OK
   S12-role/basic.t 28 - typed attribute accepts things it should
   S12-role/basic.t 29 - typed attribute accepts things it should		 15:14
kudo: f6449a4 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Minor refactor of method dispatch so we can better handle foreign objects from outside Rakudo, as suggested by pmichaud++.
kudo: 7abaea2 | pmichaud++ | src/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
 15:15
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jnthn pmichaud: Huh? Weird results... 15:18
pmichaud: It did get the spectests at the right period of time rather than latest spectests against old Rakudo? 15:19
15:19 frioux joined
pmichaud jnthn: my script grabs rakudo and tests as of 00:00 CDT, yes. 15:19
so the report is (or should be) the state of rakudo as of 00:00 CDT today. 15:20
jnthn pmichaud: OK, but those tests it failed I added earlier today
e.g. after 00:00 CDT...
pmichaud I'll double-check it.
my script thinks it was r25813 15:21
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pmichaud maybe I invoked the script wrong earlier. 15:22
jnthn ok, no big deal...guess if it does it again we can look deeper 15:23
Those are certainly tests I have added today though.
pmichaud: Did the dispatch refactor.
pmichaud jnthn: yes, I saw that. Looks good. 15:24
jnthn OK, good. :-)
pmichaud I was also wondering if HOW.dispatch might want some refactoring at some point, to separate out "find the candidates" from "make the call"
you might also review the irc logs w.r.t. the handling of BUILD() 15:25
TimToady made quite a few comments on it late yesterday, I think.
jnthn Ah, OK.
pmichaud effectively, though, BUILD is handled like a sub dispatch instead of a method dispatch.
jnthn OK, not sure what the upshot of that is, will find and read... 15:26
Just testing a multi dispatch fix atm.
Edge case... 15:27
pmichaud: How would you feel about being able to pass to P6Object's .register a named parameter saying "when you make the proto, use the copy opcode to assign it to this PMC, then install that in the namespace etc" 15:28
The rationale is
class A { has A $!x }
We don't make the proto for A until after we add the attribute 15:29
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jnthn So it'd be nice to have some PMC in the namespace as A 15:29
pmichaud I had been thinking that P6object should support incomplete protos.
jnthn And the proto is copy'd onto it.
And it Just Works (I think...) 15:30
Something like this or a different mechanism?
pmichaud it doesn't feel quite right to me.
jnthn OK 15:31
Then we need something that effectively does a similar thing but does feel right. ;-)
pmichaud the way I had been thinking of going with p6object was to do basically what rakudo is doing now (more)
i.e., one can register a protoobject, but it's not actually tied to a class until we close the composition (or do an operation that requires the composition be closed) 15:32
jnthn Something like that could work.
pmichaud so, we do (1) create protoobject, (2) add attributes, methods, etc, (3) close composition
and keep the same protoobject throughout. 15:33
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud then rakudo can use protoobjects instead of metaclass
jnthn Something along those lines sound doable.
15:33 Psyche^ joined
pmichaud because protoobjects can represent a class in a partial state of composition. 15:33
thinking about it more... 15:34
ultimately I think what I just described ends up doing what you described, though.
because we have to replace our partial protoobject with another one that is an instance of the newly-composed class 15:35
and to do that we have to do a copy
(or a reference or something like that)
jnthn Right. 15:37
pmichaud how hard would it be to get the type to be attached after the class is finished composing?
jnthn I was thinking your idea sounded more like a nice abstraction.
interface
But would boil down to the same...
Hmm
It'd be a pain...
Not really hard.
Just messier. 15:38
pmichaud oh.
there's another big piece
(before we head too far down this path)
TimToady has significantly refactored block parsing in STD.pm
STD.pm now tries to do a lot of what I had been doing with $?BLOCK_OPEN 15:39
jnthn That suggests you got it right. :-)
pmichaud yes, what STD.pm has now is a lot more of what I had wished to see earlier.
but, that's a fairly significant refactor, and I'd prefer to do that after 1.0 15:40
(after Parrot 1.0)
i.e., not while I'm traveling about.
so....
I'm fine with your proposal.
i.e., adding a option or other interface to .register that says "use this PMC as the protoobject container" 15:41
jnthn The extra parameter to...right.
pmichaud we can deprecate it later, I don't expect it to get used much outside of rakudo just yet anyway.
jnthn Whee. Looks like I got the MMD fix right...
Well, how soon do you plan to do your set of changes?
It's not a super-urgent bug...
15:42 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
pugs_svn r25820 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Add a couple of tests for MMD to make sure it enforces contraints properly when there's a single candidate with one on. 15:44
jnthn moritz_: On ticket here is waiting for tests, if you get chance - I keep opening it each week to fix and then realize...just needs tests. ;-) rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=62162 15:47
*one
dalek kudo: cdd3e7d | jnthn++ | src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc:
The multi-dispatcher had an off-by-one that caused it not to enforce contraints if there was no tie-breaking needed. The rest of the patch makes sure we don't put stuff in the MMD cache that we should not (if there's a constraint, we can't use the nominal-type-based cache). Resolves RT#63812.
kudo: e8a8fb6 | jnthn++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
pmichaud my set of changes to the block stuff will probably be late next week; i.e., around the 20th-23rd
pmichaud I'm okay with letting has A $!x; wait until then. 15:48
i.e., you can decide if you want to add the option to p6object or wait until the block refactors occur
jnthn OK, then in that case I'm not inclined to spend time on a temporary fix that will last a couple of weeks.
pmichaud with the block refactors it may happen that we end up getting protoobjects immediately after the "class A ..." part -- before we parse the block. 15:49
jnthn That people aren't clammering to get fixed.
If people were lining up to do that I'd do it, but they ain't. So it can wait to be done properly. :-)
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pmichaud my re-run of the spectests for 00:00 CDT came up with the same results -- investigating further. 15:51
jnthn Task for anyone with tuits and some Perl6-fu: review rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=63780 and see if it can be narrowed down to a small test case, if indeed it is a bug. 15:54
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pmichaud oh, I know the problem for 63780 15:57
the array is getting a reference to the original instead of a clone
it might have to do with our ObjectRef semantics
i.e., we may be checking for ObjectRef when we need to be checking for Perl6Scalar 15:58
jnthn Ah
I've fixed a few things like that before now. :-/
16:00 [particle]2 left
jnthn oh ouch :-| 16:01
my %h = a => any(3, 4); for %h.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k: {$v.WHAT}" };
16:02 Tene left
jnthn Here, the value auto-threads correct... 16:02
But we detect the need to do so inside signature bind
And I was using 'return' to then hand back the formed results junction
Which was fine for auto-threading routines...
But not blocks. 16:03
jnthn ponders how to return from a level below...
ruoso lift leave; 16:04
:)
pmichaud okay, I found the issue with the incorrect test reports.
jnthn ruoso: lift?
ruoso it's the new prefix 16:05
"run this code as if it was in the CALLER"... oh... right... it doesn't work for that specific case
pmichaud jnthn: 'return' and not '.return' ?
jnthn pmichaud: I don't want to return from signature_bind, I want to return from the thingy that called it.
I'd overlooked that blocks that werne't routines got signautures too... 16:06
pmichaud wait... signature_bind is handling junction autothreading? 16:07
jnthn yes and no
pmichaud shouldn't the dispatcher be doing that?
ruoso pmichaud, but what if the Signature expects Junction? 16:08
pmichaud the dispatcher autothreads when we have arguments that don't match any of the available signatures (and at least one argument is a Junction)
if a Signature expects Junction, then the dispatcher uses it. 16:09
jnthn It's along the lines of, try the call, if the signature fails to bind, then see if it's failed due to a junctional argument, and if so delegate to the junction dispatcher.
For multis it's a bit different
We cache the junction dispatcher in the table.
*in the cache
pmichaud either way I think the dispatcher should be handling autothreading, not the signature bind. 16:10
jnthn What dispatcher?
pmichaud whichever one is being called upon to do a dispatch :-)
you're referring to the case of a non-multi sub? 16:11
jnthn Yes 16:12
It's a neat and tidy implementaiton, this one issue non-withstanding.
pmichaud I've been thinking that we might have to do sub-dispatch in the way we're currently handling method dispatch (after your changes this morning)
put another way -- Parrot's dispatch is insufficient for our needs.
jnthn I'm not convinced. 16:13
In fact, the way I have implemented this seems to me in line with a way S06 explicitly declares as a valid approach.
See under Implementation note on autothreading of only subs
Of note
So it is also possible to implement autothreading
of only subs based on failover from the binding failure.
pmichaud yes, but there I think it's the dispatcher that notices the failover, not the sub itself. 16:14
jnthn That's all well and good part from in Rakudo we're already *inside* the sub by the point we try binding 16:15
*apart
pmichaud right, the binding fails, that causes an exception, the dispatcher catches the exception and says "oh, maybe I need a Junction dispatch"
jnthn I prefer the current approach. Doesn't involve throwing exceptions for one. 16:16
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jnthn Also note that if you add another dispatcher then you have to use it for things as simple as for @foo -> $x { } 16:17
pmichaud yes, I know that.
jnthn Not just for subroutine calls.
Which feels very messy to me.
If you have other use cases for having a separate sub dispatcher, I'm willing to be won over. But if this is the only one, I much prefer the current approach.
pmichaud to me for @foo -> $x { ... } does involve a subroutine call -- or at least a block invocation (which in Parrot is a sub call) 16:18
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jnthn For me too. 16:18
I just don't see that we need another !dispatch_sub layer. 16:19
pmichaud also note that in this case you *still* have an exception taking place -- it's just a return exception instead of a binding failure
jnthn Actually the return exception is a mistake, it turns out...
pmichaud right, but you're not going to be able to avoid the exception.
either that or we start creating and passing continuations around. 16:20
jnthn It did occur to me that in theory we "just" need to get an invoke our caller's ret cont.
pmichaud the other option is to check the signature bind return 16:21
(which I don't think we do now)
but that seems messy also.
jnthn Ah, hmm 16:22
yes
pmichaud I'd rather do an exception, I think.
we're going to have to have the ability to force .leave on a block anyway.
that sounds like an exception. 16:23
or a method on a block that finds the block's return continuation and invokes it
*that* sounds clean.
jnthn That sounds like what .leave would do 16:24
pmichaud then signature bind just does CALLER.leave( junction_result )
jnthn Right
We need to implemented CALLER and leave anyway
pmichaud I'd be fine with a .leave implementation for blocks.
CALLER we can get from within signature bind via getinterp
that sounds like fun, actually. 16:25
I'm afraid I have to go now -- have to help get things ready for airport.
(and we leave in 35 mins)
I'd go for the .leave approach. I think we'll get some big wins that way.
jnthn: you're correct, my script was using the wrong test suite. it would reset the suite to 00:00 CDT, and then a later step would inadvertently do an update to head 16:27
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, OK. :-)
I'll look at .leave
pmichaud if PIR makes it possible to get at a Sub's return continuation, it shouldn't be too difficult. 16:28
jnthn Have a good flight and break.
Yes, not sure if it does...well, we'll see ;_)
pmichaud I should be around again tonight and during the week, checking email at least.
I still have a number of parrot-related things to finish up over the weekend.
fortunately the first few days aren't loaded with activities. 16:29
jnthn OK, sounds good.
TimToady peddle hard 16:32
dalek kudo: 3797055 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv correction: 317 files, 7152 passing, 2 failing

   S12-methods/instance.rakudo aborted 2 test(s)		 16:33
jnthn looks at specs for .leave 16:34
oh hey, it works :-D 16:40
(not .leave, but the underlying Parrot thingy) 16:41
...well, nearly... 16:45
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ruoso TimToady, had you notice the new proposal on the partial match in reduce? 17:01
TimToady still waiting for the blood to hit my coffeestream 17:02
diakopter brain.splash() 17:06
TimToady and the backlog today is monumental 17:09
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ruoso in summary: the idea is to use a different invocation method. .invoke-iterating($iterator) that would receive a Iterator::PushBack 17:11
instead of using plain .invoke
that way, it would consume the values, returning what it didn't use
and then invoke 17:12
s/returning/pushing-back/
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TimToady ruoso: the actual name of Iterator::Unshift is probably just Array :) 18:23
Matt-W what's the string repetition operator in Perl 6? Is it still x?
TimToady presuming we give Array an Iterator role 18:24
jnthn Matt-W: x for string rep
TimToady yes
jnthn xx for array rep
Matt-W thanks
Tene_ TimToady: does CONTROL{} catch leave() ?
jnthn Otherwise worded as, is leave a control exception?
TimToady offhand, I'd say it seems more like a primitive for unwinding the stack *after* the exceptions have figgered things out 18:25
gotta have some primitives somewhere... 18:26
and it would be nice if they were exposed in Perl 6 to the extent they can be cross-platform
Tene_ huh.
TimToady and I suspect leave can do that 18:27
Tene_ "exposed ... cross-platform" ?
jnthn TimToady: Such that if a block had a "return continuation" in a given implementation, which left the block when invoked, it would be plausible that calling that is the right thing?
(I know it won't be a way for implementations without continuations.)
TimToady yes, provided you made sure all the exit hooks get run
jnthn And the exit hooks of all enclosing blocks? 18:28
TimToady unwinding the stack involves executing LEAVE blocks and such
jnthn Ah, OK.
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TimToady that has to be done synchronously; can't leave it up to GC 18:29
jnthn Hmm
OK
TimToady since leave blocks are our replacement for timely destruction
jnthn So leave needs to make sure all those are invoked down to the block that's being left.
TimToady leave and variants
jnthn ok
TimToady basically, dynamic scopes have to be destroyed explicitly 18:30
TimToady is trying hard not to think about continuations right about now 18:31
jnthn in
&foo.leave: 1,2,3; # Return from innermost surrounding call to &foo
call implies to me dynamic scope and innermost surrounding implies to me lexical. 18:32
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jnthn Are we looking for a foo up the static or dynamic chain? 18:32
TimToady you're searching the dynamic context for a particular lexical context
xkcd.com logo
Tene_ eh? 18:33
imgs.xkcd.com/static/xkcdLogo.png ?
TimToady what, I didn't type that... o_O 18:34
I guess it was a past
*paste
Tene_ you totally did. I watched you type it. 18:35
TimToady though I don't know it got copied in the first place...
*know how 18:36
jnthn Tene: OK, so if we are going to walk up the chain until we find the sub we're looking for, calling the various LEAVE etc on the way, then I guess we'd be then able to call the ret cont. Which brings me back to square one wiht the problem I was describing on #parrot...
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TimToady it's possible that leave isn't so primitive after all, of course 18:38
jnthn True.
TimToady but I think searching for the scope to leave is probably a separate pass from unwinding 18:39
and it's the unwinding that actually runs the blocks
jnthn That makes sense.
TimToady in the case of normal exceptions, it's the exception handlers that, among themselves, decide how much to unwind 18:40
in the case of something like LABEL.next, we have a lexically scoped symbol that just needs to be located in the dynamic context
probably context() with a smartmatched arg
and that then decided where to unwind, without any exception handling at all 18:41
though it can be done with control exceptions too
but an NEXT block isn't run by a control exception, but by the unwinding, since it's a LEAVE variant 18:42
I suppose maximum flexibility does the context search using control exceptions, not context() 18:43
but context() will probably be faster, if we can optimize to it
kinda stupid to use a control exception to exit your own block, for instance 18:44
when you know everything that's in it
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TimToady I guess the dynamic scope could register whether it wants to intercept control exceptions of various sorts 18:44
and just use context() search out to wherever they were registered, then throw 18:45
on the gripping hand, maybe context() is doing its searching with a control exception :) 18:46
well, it's chortles all the way down... 18:47
jnthn sudders
masak udders
jnthn *shudders... :-P 18:48
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jnthn OK, dinner time. Back later 19:16
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mikehh rakudo (3797055) on parrot r37384 builds make test make spectest PASS - t/spec/S02-literals/sub-calls.rakudo: TODO passed 16. 19:20
thats on Kubuntu Intrepid i386
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ruoso TimToady, Iterator::Unshift can't pop, for instance... nor it provides .[]... 19:53
I'd guess Array does Iterator::Unshift... 19:54
so you can use it wherever you would use an Iterator::Unshift
but my concern is the opposite...
I'd like to make sure you can implement the minimal API to get some functionality
that's actually the same reasoning behind splitting IO into several roles 19:56
so you can make a contract of using just a specific subset of API 19:58
TimToady, in the specific case of .invoke-iterating and reduce, this iterator object would be a proxy to the actual capture that would consume the values from the immutable (which means only keeping a pointer) and also keeping a stack to receive the pushbacks and the result of each iteration via unshift... So it doesn't need to implement the whole Array API... just Iterator, Iterator::PushBack and Iterator::Unshift 20:04
in the case of map and grep, it only needs to implement Iterator and Iterator::PushBack 20:06
since it doesn't need to inject the result of the previous invocation in the parameters
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TimToady I don't see a need to separate PushBack and Unshift, offhand 20:29
ruoso I'm also quite unsure about that 20:31
but my idea was to provide room for optimization
since pushback places a teoretical restriction on how it is used
so an Iterator::PushBack that is backed by an immutable list can simply contain a pointer to the current position 20:32
and it would check if the object being pushed back matches to the one in that list 20:33
ruoso just came to an interesting realization... SMOP objects can be binary-interoperable even if there are no common libraries being linked... 20:35
frioux do you guys think it would be possible with perl6 to have some kind of lazily interpolated strings? 20:43
so like, DBI could autoescape "SELECT foo WHERE foo = $bar" 20:44
because that could be really cool
ruoso frioux, that requirement is void if you use placeholders (which is something you should)
frioux ruoso: oh of course
not using placeholders is ridiculous 20:45
but I am just thinking that it would be really cool if we could make the interface a little nicer
jnthn back from the food
frioux kindav an autoplaceholder thing 20:46
ruoso decommute &
frioux but maybe that's just too weird
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yary Hello all again! 20:53
Thanks to wayland76 and ruoso for answering my Qs off-line
Re: wayland76 "As far as the usenet group goes, I'd never heard of it until you mentioned it..." 20:54
they are referred to on www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....c_archives
and the one I had tried posting to is at groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.users/topics 20:55
I'm a bit more comfortable with newsgroups- for one thing I'm often interrupted- like now, I have to leave again for a bit! 20:56
skids frioux: you could write a Str is enhanced module that checks for tags in a caller's package, but the challenge would be getting people to use it :-) 21:05
(The extra poorness of that idea is now just dawning on me) 21:07
So if I read this right, "let $a = x" is (let $a) = x, because it's a named unary. OK now I'm much less confused. 21:08
frioux hahaha 21:12
wayland76 yary: I'd recommend the mailing list perl6-users mentioned at dev.perl.org/perl6/lists/ 21:15
Actually, it's likely this links to the mailing list
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yary If you try to subscribe and post to the list via the google groups page, it says your post succeeds, but it seems to go nowhere 21:30
frioux yary: it takes a little while for your first post to go through 21:33
yary I will subscribe to the perl6.users mailing list the normal way, but I found the google groups interface first, and I may not be the first. 21:34
frioux: my post was 3-4 days ago and another persons post came in & worked after my attempt
frioux 3-4 days is much longer than it should be
it should be like, 1-2 hours
although, I subscribed the normal way too, not the google groups way 21:35
so maybe there is some problem there
yary My specific old post is not an issue now, as I have answers through here... just the larger issue of a post going missing, could dissuade a casual questioner. 21:36
frioux right, agreed
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yary I see there's now a note about google groups on the www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....c_archives page, good job! (or was it always there and I missed it? ah well.) 21:43
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yary Encountering error when rebuilding a fresh checkout of rakudo ( to try out the fix for "Null PMC access in &f.signature.params") 22:06
Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed_str()
gmake: *** [runtime/parrot/include/parrotlib.pbc] Error 1 22:07
^ that's the output from "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot"
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wayland76 reboots to debug xorg some more 22:47
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dalek kudo: 519b873 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
Avoid using a null PMC in param describing data structure, and use an undef instead; it only invites null PMC exceptions (as in RT#63570).
 22:51
kudo: 41267fd | jnthn++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
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jnthn ok, I have a working bunch of patches to make outer lexicals visible inside of an eval. 23:32
But it involves a Parrot addition and a fix to set_outer that I need to write tests for, plus need to smoke Parrot and Rakudo with it, and I'm knackered... 23:33
So, will put it all in tomorrow.
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