perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | ~280 days 'til Xmas
Set by mncharity on 18 March 2009.
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cspencer jnthn: you still around? 00:10
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pugs_svn r25969 | lwall++ | clarify (we hope) how the top-level lexical, package, and dynamic scopes interact 00:41
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skids @tell ruoso www.abrij.org/~bri/S07-tempurl.diff S07 edits + new coro section 01:26
lambdabot Consider it noted.
pugs_svn r25970 | lwall++ | clarifications to .caps and .chunks requested by moritz++ 01:27
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cspencer S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod seems to indicate that some of the functions/methods we're currently putting into Any-*.pm will be located elsewhere at some point - is Any.pm just a temporary repository for them? 01:51
dukeleto cspencer: seems that way 01:52
cspencer dukeleto: any idea why that's the case for the momen
t?
moment, rather? :)
dukeleto cspencer: the whole setting ideas is somewhat new, and I think that I was thinking of the any-*.pir files 01:53
but in general, I think S29 and S32 are still in flux
cspencer alrighty 01:54
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mikehh rakudo (1c263b0) builds on parrot r37843 - make test PASS, make spectest FAIL 1/327 test programs. 1/9577 subtests failed. - t/spec/S05-capture/caps.t - failed test 6 01:59
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pugs_svn r25971 | leto++ | Tests for roots() of a Complex 02:07
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TimToady Any is a place for methods that (as a language policy) redirect to some more specific type, such as the various operators that coerce to list 02:10
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cspencer_ TimToady: I'd just seen a reference in S32::Numeric to a Num role which seemed (to me at least) to include many of the methods currently in Any, and was wondering how that'd work 02:14
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TimToady In general methods should be defined in the class they make the most sense, with the assumption that their invocant is already of the right type. 02:25
any extra coercion is presumably in the Any version of it that delegates to the List (or Num, or whatever) version of it
but we do have to think about the cases where the type of the invocant is specified 02:26
esp where exported as a multi
and if there's a mechanism for using the same def in all those places, it's probably worthwhile not having the extra indirection overhead 02:27
but I'd rather have correct first...
cspencer_ ok. so in the case of something like "exp" or "log10", where would you suggest they end up?
dukeleto or roots()? currently I have a version in any-num.pir that calls out to math.pir 02:28
TimToady if there's a method version of them, in the package of their invocant, first of all 02:29
additional aliases are gravy
dukeleto TimToady: there is a method version and a non-method version of roots
TimToady what is the invocant of the method version? 02:30
dukeleto TimToady: Complex or Num or Int
TimToady if defined in their respective classes, and then exported to CORE, is there any reason they can't multi dispatch based on the same type? 02:31
and the Any version of it can decide how to coerce and call one of the others, if it wants to be a function that will coerce its first arg from, say Str 02:32
dukeleto TimToady: i have single PIR function that works for Num and Int currently and is very close to working for Complex
TimToady we could probably arrange to be able to import methods from one class to another via use :has<> or some such 02:33
but for now I'd just say put it into one class or another and have the other call it 02:34
or dup the code, we can refactor later
but if someone calls Num::foo() it'd be nice to actually have something there, and not just shadowed in another class, I suppose 02:35
but whatever
if the interfaces are right, we can factor out commonalites later 02:36
and presumably we can even do some tailcalls for delegation; I think parrot supports those...
could be wrong... 02:37
dukeleto TimToady: currently S32 does not mention that roots() works on Complex numbers, do you have any comments on that?
TimToady I try to stay out of mathematical debates :)
I are a lingrist
family & 02:38
meppl good night
dukeleto wasn't trying to debate so much as clarify 02:39
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lichtkind_ what is \q in p6? 02:41
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skids \q in an interpolated string allows nesting of general quote operators 02:46
www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ch_littleq
pugs_svn r25972 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] remove int routine, add iterator routine, highlight PIR code in Q:PIR// strings 02:47
frooh rakudo: "\q"frew""
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "frew\"\""ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
skids Not sure if it's implemented yet. 02:48
frooh I'd assume it isn't :-)
skids rakudo: "\q'frew'"
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: RESULTĀ«"q'frew'"Ā»
skids rakudo: qq(\q(frew)) 02:49
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Syntax error at line 1, near ")"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
pugs_svn r25973 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] only catch block labels when there's nothing but whitespace or a newline before it, so as not to catch invocant markers as well 02:55
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msmatsko I'm trying to build rakudo on cygwin under Vista-64 and get a link error for perl6_group.dll: undefined references to '__imp__Parrot_str_new_constant' among others. The g++ path seems to be set to the right place. Does anyone have any experience with this? 02:58
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lichtkind skids: thanks a lot 03:19
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pasteling "szabgab" at 192.117.127.193 pasted "cannot build rakudo" (10 lines, 477B) at sial.org/pbot/35656 06:21
dukeleto I got roots() of complex numbers work, yay 06:23
s/work/working/
szabgab sirry, after make realclean I could build it
sorry too
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pugs_svn r25974 | leto++ | Tests for cube roots() 06:40
szabgab jnthn, bug report with Segmentation fault from yesterday night sent to rakudobug 06:57
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moritz_ good morning 07:29
rakudo: my @a = 1, 2; say @a.pairs.perl 07:30
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«[0 => 1, 1 => 2]ā¤Ā»
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dukeleto moritz: mornin' 07:33
moritz; i have my roots() working nicely for everything I can throw at it 07:34
moritz_ dukeleto: did you modify it to make the method do all the work? 07:36
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pugs_svn r25975 | lwall++ | [STD] handle .caps on list assoc; nibble text is now match object 07:38
r25975 | lwall++ | [Cursor] add keys into .caps pairs
dukeleto moritz: what exactly do you mean by that? I deleted one of the multi subs that I had before, now one multisub in math.pir does all the work, with a wrapper in any-num.pir that calls out to roots(x,n) to make x.roots(n) work
moritz_ dukeleto: all the other builtins are just done the other way round: for example $s.split($delim) does all the work, split($delim, $s) calls this method - I would prefer it if it worked the same way for roots 07:40
dukeleto moritz: that seems doable 07:41
moritz: i have mostly been squashing bugs, adding docs and tests 07:43
moritz: but it seems pretty solid now, so I will convert it so that roots(x,n) calls x.roots(n) 07:44
moritz_ dukeleto: great
dukeleto: I might not have time for a thorough review today, but I should be able to do it tomorrow
dukeleto moritz: currently all 40 tests in roots.t are passing
moritz: no prob, I don't know how long it will take me to convert the calling method, but hopefully not long 07:45
moritz_ dukeleto: ok, just ping me when you're done
dukeleto moritz: sounds good
pugs_svn r25976 | leto++ | Tests for cube roots() of negative numbers 07:58
moritz_ can anybody reach rt.perl.org? 08:05
rakudo: class Match is also { method t { say %(self).pairs.[0].value.WHAT; } }; "a" ~~ /<xdigit>/; $/.t; say $<xdigit>.WHAT 08:06
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Strā¤Matchā¤Ā»
moritz_ rakudo: class Match is also { method t { say %(self).{"xdigit"}.WHAT; } }; "a" ~~ /<xdigit>/; $/.t; 08:10
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Matchā¤Ā»
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mberends rt.perl.org (netlabs.develooper.com (63.251.223.170)) and www.nntp.perl.org (63.251.223.163) seem to be down 08:22
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mberends jnthn++ # excellent slides www.jnthn.net/articles.shtml 09:01
pugs_svn r25977 | leto++ | Fix typo in roots() test descriptions
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masak trapping signals in Perl 6? how, where, when? 09:31
oh, and good morning, people.
here's how Ruby does it. looks OK to me. gist.github.com/83484 09:32
mberends gm masak, that was IPC in p5, so probably NYI
masak mhm 09:33
mberends those progress dots, huh?
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masak mberends: yes -- you want them? :) 09:33
mberends can live without. it's eye candy.
masak I'm sitting in a local branch called 'dogfood' in proto as we speak. 09:34
mberends ...although free candy is welcome
masak will add private github repo download, so I can start using proto myself in my everyday work.
I don't think the progress dots are such a hard problem, so I might throw them in while I have the momentum.
mberends: did you see viklund++'s cleanup of the Perl 5 bootstrapper? 09:35
mberends masak: yes, it was an almost total rewrite
masak aye.
mberends p2t1a :)
masak indeed. :) 09:36
mberends is preparing 2 throw Pod::Parser v1 away...
masak why?
mberends that {*} appeals to me 09:37
and the scalability results were disappointing
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moritz_ aye, {*} rocks 09:38
mberends and Matt-W++ showed an excellent architecture in form
masak {*} is indeed appealing. as if Perl 6 wasn't good enough already at hiding complexity. :)
mberends: oh? need to check it out again.
moritz_ but I'm regularly fighting small bugs in Match objects
masak moritz_: such as?
mberends moritz_, you're doing great stuff with Match objects 09:39
moritz_ masak: for example %($/).pairs and .kv stringify the values
masak I must say that being part of a language community that's just forming is one of the best things that has happened to me as a programmer.
literal I'm curious. What does {*} do?
masak moritz_: is there a rakudobug for that?
moritz_ masak: and und some condition there's a Null PMC access in get_bool when doing 'if %(sefl)'
masak: yes 09:40
masak and the second one too? :)
moritz_ literal: it tells the grammar engine to execute a method of the same name as rule from a supplied object
masak: sure
masak moritz_: great.
literal ok 09:41
moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { rule TOP { (\d+) '+' (\d+) } }; say A.parse('3 + 4')
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«3 + 4ā¤Ā»
moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { rule TOP { (\d+) '+' (\d+) {*} } }; class B { method TOP($/) { make $/[0] + $/[0] } } say A.parse('3 + 4', :action(B.new)).ast 09:42
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "say A.pars"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
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moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { rule TOP { (\d+) '+' (\d+) {*} } }; class B { method TOP($/) { make $/[0] + $/[0] } }; say A.parse('3 + 4', :action(B.new)).ast 09:42
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«6ā¤Ā»
moritz_ literal: that's a nice example of what the reduction methods can do 09:44
literal: and part of a potential GSOC project would also be to extensively test that facilty (hint, hint :-)
literal heh 09:45
moritz_ speaking of which, applications must be done by April 3rd, iirc
literal yeah 09:46
mberends moritz_: does it only make sense to call make once in a .parse (in TOP)? when I tried several others, only the last make argument was returned. 09:47
moritz_ mberends: I think it's specced that way... $/ has only one .ast, so there's nothing else it could do 09:48
mberends that's ok then, my expectations were unsure
moritz_ but you can always make [@( $/.ast ), $new_value] 09:49
mberends needs a cuppa to ponder that one 09:50
moritz_ that's basically the same as $/.ast.push($new_value), but it should atually work :-)
mberends that's slightly more grokkable, but .ast is beyond by ken 09:51
*my
moritz_ .ast is the same as $(), ie the payload that you put onto the Match object by calling make 09:52
mberends
.oO( lightbulb )
 09:53
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masak mberends: I'm looking at www.webrick.org/ -- do you think that a HTTP server in Perl 6 would be of use? 10:12
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jnthn morning all 10:15
masak jnthn: morning!
mberends masak: been there, done that autoexec.demon.nl:8888/
masak mberends: oh, so HTTP::Demon already is such a server? 10:16
mberends yep
for Druid too
masak rushes to read source
mberends just needs netcat -> socat swap for BSD 10:17
masak tries 10:18
mberends: I think I'll try and plug some Web.pm things I'm writing into HTTP::Server during the day. 10:19
this is exactly what I need.
mberends++
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masak mberends: 'make help' doesn't contain the target 'podserver'. 10:21
mberends oops :) 10:22
masak mberends: wouldn't you know, the server works on the first attempt!
it's slow, but it works. 10:23
mberends \o/
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jnthn Rakudo can haz web server?! :-) 10:23
You folks scare me. :-) 10:24
masak I hope to have a lobster ready by this afternoon.
github.com/chneukirchen/rack/blob/m...lobster.rb
mberends: I'll probably have to copy HTTP::Server to the web repo, creating a temporary duplication. 10:31
mberends cool
masak it's not a good long-term solution, but might be worth it to create a nice working example without an inter-project req. 10:32
s/req/dependency/
mberends fine
masak is glad he introduced the LICENSE file in the root of the perl6-examples repo :)
mberends: I've been thinking of ways to introduce pseudoprojects in proto to handle the different projects residing in perl6-examples. 10:34
mberends copy -r /projects/lib ;)
masak -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `)' 10:35
mberends: it might be possible to find a solution that doesn't depend on copying things. part of the "problem" is that the modules in perl6-examples are highly interdependent. 10:36
in anthropomorphic terms, they like to live together. 10:37
mberends the perl6-examples/lib is a mini PERL6LIB of the future 10:38
masak aye.
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masak ooh, things have indeed changed in Form since I last looked at it. 10:40
Matt-W++
mberends aye
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masak lunch & 11:04
mikehh rakudo (1c263b0) builds on parrot r37846 - make test PASS, make spectest FAIL 1/327 test programs. 1/9577 subtests failed. - t/spec/S05-capture/caps.t - failed test 6 11:10
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ruoso Hello! 11:44
lambdabot ruoso: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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ruoso @tell skids the changes you sent are mostly ok, but ideally the item iterator returns one item at a time, not one capture at a time, which implies that if a capture contains more than one item, it will be stored and each of its values is consumed one by one. As well as doing additional calls if an empty capture is returned... At least that was my original intent 11:51
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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Matt-W gets a big grin on his face 11:52
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ruoso @tell skids but maybe I'm wrong and no flattening should be done in contexts other than list... 11:54
lambdabot Consider it noted.
ruoso masak, I'd suggest leaving a Perl 6 HTTP::Daemon as a different project... most people don't mind using apache... 11:57
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mberends Matt-W: is the hubris getting to you? we do eventually want running code ;) 12:13
Matt-W it's hard to be overproud about code when the compiler keeps throwing new ways to break it at you
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mberends nm, I like the way you've structured you project. I'm taking memes into Pod::Parser. 12:16
*your 12:17
Matt-W it's thrown up a few bugs in rakudo :)
still not sure why my fourth test file won't work 12:18
sometihng to do with instantiating objects of classes made with roles in multilayer namespaces or something
I intend to do a test case later
mberends how about just pushing it and let me pull and also look. the user base can tolerate some downtime. 12:20
Matt-W it's already up there
just pull it and make test 12:21
I know 03 fails, that's algorithmic
04 looks like rakudo though
mberends ok, it may then be pulled already. I did see fails late last night as you signed off.
Matt-W I pushed it because it was preferable to the infinite loop that was there before :) 12:22
mberends indeed, did that one here too :) 12:23
masak ruoso: well, considering that the code is already written...
Matt-W I'm currently operating no rules about code pushed in form requiring to work :)
masak ruoso: I think there's certainly a use case for running your web stuff without Apache as a dependency. 12:24
Matt-W rails shows that having an easy way to start up a project in a web server is really nice
just... let's not have the bit where it's really hard to get a rails project running in apache :)
masak agreed. 12:25
Rack does this wonderfully, it seems.
it has some kind of "middleware" adapters.
and all of them work with the same interface.
Matt-W cool 12:26
masak yes; it's a bit funny that I discovered Rack after specifying Web.pm -- they share many things, from goals to specific design points 12:27
Matt-W great minds thinking alike?
masak must be. :P 12:28
mberends Matt-W: suggest commenting out all failing tests and looking at them one at a time (in any order)
masak but there are also plenty of things that Rack does which I never thought about. that's ok, they're still stealable.
RT down. :/ 12:29
did I overload it yesterday, perhaps? :P 12:30
jnthn masak: Yeah, too many tickets. :-P
masak I;d say sorry, but I'm not. :P
mberends perhaps a network outage, other hosts also affected
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Matt-W mberends: yeah I will 12:32
mberends: I'm only worried about the apparent lack of ability to construct a TextField in 04
moritz_ log.perl.org/2009/03/downtime-move-...g-now.html
masak moritz_: ahoj!
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moritz_ hi masak :-) 12:33
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masak moritz_: weekend good? 12:35
moritz_ masak: weekend good, but ended with $girlfriend sick :/
masak :/ 12:36
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pmurias ruoso: hi 12:36
mberends Matt-W: is this blocking you? 'Could not find non-existent sub left' 12:39
ruoso hi pmurias
Matt-W mberends: where did you get that from?
mberends bypass 'prove' and run 'perl6 t/04yada.t' 12:40
masak jnthn, moritz_: I'm still slightly unsatisfied with the way Parrot won't reveal byte information of strings. it feels silly to have to recreate this information on the Rakudo level. but if there's no other short-term solution, that's what I'll implement in Rakudo for now.
pmurias ruoso: do you think doing OO and multis would be appropriate for GSoC? 12:41
moritz_ masak: did you send a mail to parrot-dev asking for help?
masak: that might be worth a try
masak moritz_: good idea.
ruoso pmurias, what do you mean by OO?
masak I'll start with that.
ruoso pmurias, ah... OO in mildew
pmurias yes 12:42
ruoso pmurias, yes... I think so...
moritz_ oh, rt status improved... before it was unreachable, now I get a ssh connection and "bad gateway"
mberends Matt-W: the 'left' identifier never occurs standalone, always before an underscore. maybe try camelCase instead of underscores.
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pmurias ruoso: "implementing S12 in smop" seems a neat way to sum up what i intend to do 12:44
moritz_ pmurias: remeber that the meta-object stuff you're doing is quite far off from what the average programmer already knows... 12:46
ruoso pmurias, yes... but that's a bit ambitious
moritz_ so it might not be ideal for a student
ruoso pmurias, try to be a bit more specific on what you plan to do... 12:47
remember that it's a time-limited project
moritz_, he is the student
szabgab anyone read the blog entry about embedding Perl 6 into Perl 5 ? szabgab.com/blog/2009/03/1237797959.html 12:48
where should I put the source code of that module and how should I call it?
pmurias on CPAN? 12:49
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szabgab I mean vcs 12:49
moritz_ szabgab: github, if you are happy with git
szabgab and I wonder if it should be just any version control
moritz_ or pugs svn, if you prefer svn
szabgab I am new to git but that could be ok 12:50
and what name to use ? Inline::Rakudo ?
moritz_ From Inline::* modules I expect a similar interface as Inline::C 12:51
mberends szabgab: Nicely written. I had watched the conversation in #perl6.
moritz_ but maybe I'm a bit off here
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szabgab moritz_, that's why I am not really happy with the name 12:52
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szabgab thought probably I should be unhappy with the API 12:52
mberends szabgab: github names do not support punctuation or uppercase letters
moritz_ szabgab: maybe Rakudo::Inline?
szabgab so on github I can just call it perl6_in_perl5
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mberends even the underscore might be on thin ice, and that's risky in Israel. 12:53
szabgab and the real package name can be decided once and if the code is actually useful
mberends true 12:54
masak szabgab: or use dashes; that's nicer :)
Matt-W mberends: I see nothing about not being able to find a nonexistent sub 12:56
masak Matt-W: have you committed and pushed everything?
Matt-W ah I just rebuilt from scratch 12:57
now I see it
the disadvantage of precompiling modules
mberends there's a utility called 'make' ;-)
Matt-W yeah it doesn't seem to be getting the dependencies right 12:58
I'll have to check my makefile.in
duh
bash bash bash
stupid stupid stupid
masak Matt-W: I've learned to write 'make; perl t/testfile.t' as a reflex
mberends er, perl6 ?
pmurias ruoso: the GSoC proposal has to specify a list of task with a schedule?
masak mberends: ah, right. :)
Matt-W: as a rule, build .pm files bottom-up according to the dep tree. 12:59
Matt-W mberends: right, now I'm back to "Null PMC access in invoke()
"
masak: yes I realise that :)
masak Matt-W: we should have a utility that builds Makefile.in for us :) 13:00
ruoso pmurias, yes
I think
mberends masak: who gets that job? 13:01
moritz_ the one who asks
masak d'oh!
Matt-W masak does!
go go go!
masak it's not that hard, really.
assumind 'use' statements are at the top of the file. 13:02
I'll see what I can throw together in five minutes :)
Matt-W pushes to form 13:03
now we have the fun part
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mberends I preferred the previous error message :) 13:04
Matt-W yes so did I 13:05
the trick will be figuring out what circumstances trigger that and filing a bit
bug*
Matt-W goes to experiment
doh 13:07
again
stupid stupid stupid
oh maybe not
that was a bug I hadn't triggered yet that I just fixed :)
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Matt-W interesting 13:10
the bug is to do with enums
mberends enums are a bit... incomplete 13:11
jnthn Aye, enums need work. 13:12
moritz_ submitted a few enum tickets as well
rakudo: say Bool::True.perl; say True.perl;
jnthn Basically they want a re-write.
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Bool::Trueā¤.new()ā¤Ā»
moritz_ in the second case it picks up the method from Object 13:13
even though True and Bool::True should be aliases
jnthn Heh, and then there's the whole "is Bool really an enum" thing. ;-)
moritz_ and the "is an enum really a role as well" thing 13:14
Matt-W and the whole 'why do I have to say Bool::True' thing
masak ta-daa! gist.github.com/83545
mberends Matt-W: moritz_++ clarified earlier today that only one 'make' per .parse actually produces output. The makes in Actions will clobber each other as the nested matches unwind. Is that how you see it? 13:15
13:15 pmurias left
Matt-W mberends: yes 13:15
mberends ok, looking elsewhere
szabgab jnthn hi
Matt-W it should be pulling the result from the previous make, doing something to it, then make()ing that 13:16
the bug is using an enum in another module somehow
szabgab yesterdays helpwas rally great!
Matt-W just trying to boil it down as much as possible
szabgab and I should type slower
13:16 PerlJam left, PerlJam joined
Matt-W right 13:17
do we have this bug already
rakudo: module A { enum B<a b c>; }; my $e = A::B::b;
szabgab any idea why do I get an error t/01-simple...."load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'PCT.pbc' if I run my script from any other place than the parrot root directory ?
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Null PMC access in invoke()ā¤current instr.: '_block21' pc 63 (EVAL_25:41)ā¤Ā»
jnthn szabgab: Glad yesterday helped. ;-) I suspect issue is Parrot is having...issues...locating PCT.pbc. I'm not sure where it's trying to look though. 13:18
Which would be interesting to know.
Matt-W oh do we have no RT at the moment 13:19
jnthn I'm not sure if it's possible to specify extra places to look...
szabgab ok, I just called load_bytecode path/to/PCT.pbc 13:21
which then complained about another thing
I am not sure it's a good idea to add them one by one
mberends Matt-W: move the enum out of the module for a slight loss of encapsulation but a working result. 13:22
Matt-W mberends: multiple modules require the enum 13:23
putting it in any of them would be wrong
other than the one it's in
I could duplicate for the time being I suppose 13:24
mberends rakudobug now; refactor later
masak mberends++
mberends running code wins every time ;) 13:25
Matt-W pfft
it wouldn't work at all if they didn't translate into numbers
but I don't like thinking of them like that 13:27
they're new unique values that don't translate into any other domain
(in this context, anyway)
mberends and then there's reality
Matt-W it's overrated
masak likes lines($file) 13:28
Matt-W does Rakudo understand $match_object.ast yet? 13:29
moritz_ it does
Matt-W excellent
I can tidy up a bit then
I do prefer it to having to do $( $match_object )
moritz_ it just proxies $( $/ ) for now, but that might change in future
Matt-W don't care :)
moritz_ :-) 13:30
Matt-W that's what encapsulation is for
I don't *have* to care
moritz_ aye
Matt-W all I know is that I get the result object
in a way that makes a bit more sense
moritz_ I had to care at the time I implemented .ast
Matt-W well yes
Matt-W ticks off one more passing test in form 13:31
found another one that doesn't though
boooooooo
the result object seems to be a Str, not a TextField 13:34
boooo
ahah 13:35
(half-finished new features)-- 13:36
masak do we have an equivalent of Ruby's String#ljust ? 13:39
gist.github.com/83548
mberends just the job for Form 13:41
masak :)
Matt-W okay, if I have a rule that's like /(a)*/ and I've got its match object, can I get a list of captured subpatterns?
masak mberends: I was hoping not to have to include another module to do this. 13:42
PerlJam eval: sprintf(":%-20s:", "foo");
er ... do that right
and that's it.
masak PerlJam: thanks.
PerlJam rakudo: printf(":%-20s:\n", "foo");
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«:foo :ā¤Ā»
Matt-W masak: we will, when I write it for Form :)
masak rakudo: say sprintf("%-20s", "foo") 13:43
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«foo ā¤Ā»
Matt-W and it'll be in Form::TextFormatting
masak Matt-W: cool.
13:43 xinming left
Matt-W every time there's a gust of wind, the lamppost outside the window wobbles in a most alarming manner 13:43
13:43 riffraff joined
jnthn Matt-W: Forthcoming lamppost fail? :-) 13:44
Matt-W jnthn: I hope not, it's in a good position to break a great deal of my landlord's glass
Matt-W consults S05 13:45
13:45 xinming joined 13:46 skids joined
amoc is it right that Perl6 is based on MetaObjectProtocol ? 13:49
moritz_ it is 13:50
PerlJam only time will tell if it's right or not ;-)
masak we're also based heavily on operators.
amoc inserts perl6 link at see also entry in Metaobject wiki page.. 13:51
masak is there a method form of .() ? 13:52
ruoso masak, postcircumfix:<( )>($capture) 13:53
jnthn Matt-W: Would make a create failblog entry though. ;-)
s/create/great/
jnthn can't type anything right today
ruoso masak, but supposedly, .() is a multi that happens to call that method at some point in the default implementation
Matt-W maybe by somebody who didn't live in the house it crushes :)
PerlJam jnthn: step away from the rakudo then! ;-)
masak ruoso: I'm asking, because Ruby's Rack ducktypes on .call methods, making it possible to supply a Rack application with a closure. 13:55
jnthn PerlJam: I comitted nothing today. :-P
ruoso masak, but you can simply say $foo.() 13:56
and it will consider $foo to be a callable
masak ruoso: yes, sure. but I meant on the callee side. 13:57
ruoso: in Ruby, one simply defines a 'call' method.
ruoso ah...
you define postcircumfix:<( )>($capture)
it's in Ssomething
moritz_ so $x.foo calls $x.call('foo') ?
masak yeah.
ruoso ah...
in that case it's a bit more complex 13:58
moritz_ masak: rakudo implements 'handles'
ruoso since that's made through HOW
bacek good night
masak ruoso: do you agree that postcircumfix:<( )> is slightly less pretty than 'call'?
ruoso masak, it's not the same thing...
masak moritz_: I don't see how that helps me.
PerlJam perl6 has call() too, doesn't it? Or am I conflating memories ?
ruoso masak, postcircumfix:<( )> is the API of callable
bacek reading parrot's documentation on localhost:1234 using httpd.pir
masak ruoso: well, so is 'call' for Ruby lambdas. 13:59
bacek localhost:1234 of casue :)
ruoso masak, what you want is $foo.dispatch('foo', $catpure);
masak, er... that's not what moritz_ pointed and you agreed
masak buubot: spack \bdispatch\b
buubot masak: S02-bits.pod:5 S03-operators.pod:22 S04-control.pod:1 S05-regex.pod:4 S06-routines.pod:16 S09-data.pod:1 S12-objects.pod:35 S13-overloading.pod:7
moritz_ masak: it allows you for example to turn all calls of the form $x.is_something into calls to $x.attrib.your_method()
Matt-W gargh
masak is 100% confused now 14:00
jnthn bacek: You got Parrot sockes working?!
*sockets
Matt-W everything is fine until I get to the action method for TOP, which is suddenly only seeing strings as match objects from the subpattern
nnnnrgh
bacek jnthn: unix version
jnthn bacek++
moritz_ Matt-W: there's a bug that .kv and .pairs stringify matches...
Matt-W moritz_: not using those
bacek jnthn: It took little bit more than I expected... 14:01
ruoso masak, sorry... $foo.^dispatch('method', $capture)
but in that case $foo is a regular object that implements 'method'\
moritz_ Matt-W: and that usually also occurs when you forgot to add {*} to the subrules that TOP calls
masak ruoso: I think we're talking across purposes.
Matt-W moritz_: they're there, I can see the action methods being called
moritz_ Matt-W: if it's neither of those, file a bug report once RT is back up
masak ruoso: I'm not looking to do dispatch.
ruoso masak, what are you looking for? 14:02
Matt-W moritz_: I haven't yet convinced myself I'm doing this right
masak ruoso: I'm looking to emulate Ruby's ducktyping on the 'call' method for objects sent into Rack.
ruoso: where the nice thing is that lambdas (Rubese for 'closures') already have such a method. 14:03
ruoso I don't really see what you mean...
ruoso going to look what "call" does in Ruby
masak ruoso: given a closure, it invokes that closure.
ruoso masak, thats .() 14:04
moritz_ ruoso: if you find a nice explanation let me know
masak ruoso: aye.
moritz_ so what's the problem now?
ruoso masak, $foo.() assumes $foo is Callable
jnthn masak: If the closure is in $foo, just $foo() would call it
ruoso Callable defines method postcircumfix:<( )>($capture)
masak ruoso: so my conclusion is that doing the equivalent of defining 'call' in Perl 6 is slightly less elegant than in Ruby.
ruoso likes the extra dot ;) 14:05
masak, I don't get it... how is ".()" less elegant than ".call()"
masak ruoso: it's not, on the caller side.
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moritz_ I think what masak wants to do is turning an object into something callable 14:05
masak moritz_: more or less.
ruoso you just need to implement Callable
what's wrong about that?
moritz_ masak: what's the "less" part?
masak moritz_: well, for one postcircumfix:<( )>() is longer than call() 14:06
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masak moritz_: I'd also guess that it's harder to remember. 14:06
14:06 parduncia_ left
moritz_ aye 14:07
masak oh well.
ruoso masak, the syntatical category of the ops is already used by a lot of objects...
Positionals need to implement postcircumfix:<[ ]> 14:08
and so on
masak ruoso: I'm not proposing we change anything :)
ruoso: I'm just designing Web.pm out loud.
ruoso masak, alright then ;) 14:09
masak rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>() {} } 14:11
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Malformed method definition at line 1, near "postcircum"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
14:11 nihiliad joined
moritz_ treating things as callable is a cool idea, because it means you don't have to come up with a standardized method name :-) 14:11
[particle] rakudo doesn't understand foo:<bar> syntax yet 14:12
masak moritz_: another cool idea stolen from Rack. :)
[particle]: I suspected that.
ruoso masak, remember it is important that the action processing takes at least two different stages... 14:13
execute happens from least specific to most specific 14:14
end happens from most specific to least specific
(that assuming chains....)
masak ruoso: I'm not the guy with that abstraction level. 14:15
ruoso: I'm doing requests and responses.
ruoso ah... ok...
Matt-W pushes form: all current parsing tests now work
14:16 ZuLuuuuuu joined
masak Matt-W++ 14:16
Matt-W finally figured out what was going on
Might try and write it up right now, actually
masak Matt-W: do it!
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pmichaud good morning #perl6 14:28
masak oh hai pmichaud
moritz_ hi there
PerlJam morning pm
14:29 xinming_ joined
jnthn morning pmichaud 14:30
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moritz_ pmichaud: currently .kv and .pairs on Match objects stringify their values... could you take a look at it sometimes soon? things I'm working on in Match.chunks etc. are blocking on it 14:48
I could also use some very ugly workarounds...
14:49 ruoso left
pmichaud moritz_: yes, I can take a look at it very soon. Much of Match is set to be refactored soon anyway. 14:50
e.g., to set up .ast and eliminate .item and the like.
masak and .text 14:52
moritz_ pmichaud: great
jnthn pmichaud: Planning a Rakudo day this week. Thu is not so good (Slovak class), Fri neither (flying in the evening), but tomorrow or Wed would work for me. How about you? 14:53
pmichaud either tomorrow or Wed should be fine. Wed _might_ be a little better because I'm finding there's a lot of other things I'm having to catch up on. 14:54
jnthn (I've got a huge task list of stuff if you're not going to be about anyway...)
Ah, Ok.
OK, Wed it is.
pmichaud I should be about all week.
jnthn I'm away weekend + Monday.
pmichaud but I might have to work on non-Parrot/Rakudo stuff while I'm here.
jnthn (Mostly or entirely offline away) 14:55
pmichaud for example, right now I have to take my car back into the shop to find out why the wheels are making a funny noise.
jnthn :-S
pmichaud also have to get our taxes done this week :-| 14:56
jnthn Ugh.
jnthn got his out of the way in January. Then, his deadline was end of Jan... 14:57
pmichaud yes, this year is slightly challenging for taxes in many respects -- both Paula and I had significant events in 2008
jnthn Yes. And from what I've heard, the US tax system is optimized for consuming people's time and providing potential to make mistakes... 14:58
Since the UK developed online filing, the whole thing became scarily efficient...
Unfortunately, I've now left the UK. 14:59
Well, unfortunate it that sense.
Fortunate in others. :-)
pmichaud well, "potential to make mistakes" also leaves lots of room for tax evasi.... er, creative accounting. :-)
14:59 Kisu joined
jnthn Tax *optmization*. ;-) 14:59
dotax -Otax_payable 15:00
pmichaud it's a time-honored tradition among many high-ranking government officials in the U.S.
(or "wannabe high-ranking officials")
jnthn ;-)
15:01 nihiliad left 15:02 ruoso joined
pmichaud okay, off to take my car back to the shop, visit the bank, the post office, etc. bbiah 15:02
TimToady moritz_: I did clarify your .caps yesterday, but perl.org hasn't coughed up the email yet 15:03
ruoso TimToady, I was backlogging and see you comment on @@ and slices... that reminded me of the idea of replacing '@@' by Ā¢, replacing "slice context" by "capture context"... do you think that change is going to happen? 15:05
TimToady we could just make @@ the Texas form of Ā¢ 15:06
ruoso right... but you do remember that the idea was to make it clear that it's not just about lists, right? 15:07
moritz_ TimToady: I've seen it, thanks
TimToady I'm not big on clarity at this time of morning :)
moritz_ TimToady: at least I saw the commit
TimToady also a commit about top-level namespaces
which should also imply some tests 15:08
ruoso TimToady, ok... I just wanted to bring it on again, so that doesn't hurt us too much in the future (as the last change in captures did ;)
TimToady UNIT::OUTER == SETTING, for instance
moritz_ when I have a regex like /[ (\d) \s*]+/, then $0 is List - can I assume that this will flatten?
TimToady ruoso: I can understand that :)
moritz_ so that $/.caps will have two pairs 0 => Match.new(...) when the bracket matched twice
ruoso moritz_, it should only flatten if you assign it to a list... 15:09
TimToady moritz_: correct, there can be dup keys
moritz_ ruoso: the question is if $/.caps flatten it... which TimToady just answered :-)
TimToady: ok, then I understood it correctly... will update the tests soon
TimToady and STD/Cursor has a prototype implementation of .caps, but of course the P5 version of it just pushes keys and values in alternation 15:11
ruoso TimToady, is it sane to define as a general policy that flattening only happens in list assignment? 15:12
TimToady assignment? 15:13
or context?
15:13 PacoLinux joined
ruoso TimToady, I was thinking that maybe a bind to a list could keep it unflattened 15:13
my @a := foo(); 15:14
so...
my @a := (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3); say @a[0].per; #prints "((1,2,3),2,3)"
TimToady seems like map {...}, list foo() should flatten
ruoso ok... 15:15
point taken
TimToady course, map is already list context, but that's the point
ruoso it might be a bit tricky to get the above example to work 15:16
TimToady but then what about slice map {...}, foo()
ruoso i.e. to amke it flatten... (I mean the example I wrote)
TimToady, the signature of map causes the flattening...
but I'm not sure how that works... 15:17
maybe there's an explicit coercion going on before the bind 15:19
TimToady hmm, map seems more like a factory factory that takes a closure and a capture and generates a factory that generates a filter when it actually knows the whether its context is list/slice/eager/hyper whatever 15:20
or something like that... 15:21
ruoso hmm... I'm not sure it is map-specific
my @a := (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3);
15:22 gdonald joined
ruoso exposes the same issue 15:22
pugs: my @a := (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3); say @a.perl; 15:23
p6eval pugs: OUTPUTĀ«\(1, 2, 3, 2, 3)ā¤Ā»
ruoso pugs: my @@a := (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3); say @@a.perl;
p6eval pugs: OUTPUTĀ«\(1, 2, 3, 2, 3)ā¤Ā»
ruoso ok... pugs is not building the list lazily
15:23 kane__ joined
ruoso er... unflattened, actually 15:24
TimToady I sense that if we get too fancy here we'll turn into Haskell :)
15:24 gdonald left
ruoso TimToady, right... but... do we have a choice? 15:24
I mean
we support unflattened lists... 15:25
that flatten automatically
this is "too fancy"
PerlJam ruoso: my @a = flatten (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3); # :-) problem "solved" 15:26
masak rakudo: my $a = "foobar"; $a ~~ /foo/; say $a.substr($/.to) # emulating $'
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«barā¤Ā»
masak Rakudo++
ruoso PerlJam, while making the flattening explicit is completely unexpected... It's not that all a bad idea... 15:27
PerlJam well, I don't know that I made it explicit really. I just changed one syntax for another. 15:28
ruoso because in fact, all the "flattening" process is very much obscure yet... 15:31
15:31 kane___ joined
ruoso we all agree that @a = (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3); should result in (1,2,3,2,3,2,3) 15:31
but...
PerlJam yes. Perhaps it needs to be "louder" than happen en passant in certain contexts 15:32
ruoso my @a = map { ($_,$_),$_) }, 1,2,3 15:33
what defines the flattening... is it the use of "(" ")"?
15:33 ejs joined
ruoso my @a = map { (($_,$_),$_) }, 1,2,3 15:34
the line before that was wrong
masak in a 'when' expression, can I match against either of two regexes somehow? an or-junction, perhaps?
ruoso masak, yes... that's one of the primary uses for junctions... 15:35
TimToady seems like binding a capture into @x causes the binding to happen to generator of @x, not the array container itself
masak rakudo: my $a = "foo"; given $a { when /foo/ | /bar/ { say "OH HAI" } }
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«OH HAIā¤Ā»
masak cool.
TimToady or looking at it the other way, when a capture finds itself being bound into a container of a certain type, it transforms itself into something suitable to be bound to that container 15:36
ruoso the problem is that binding doesn't really touch the rvalue
TimToady which in the case of an array is an empty array fed by the flattened capture list
ruoso at least until now
TimToady doesn't have to, just provides a different iterator, I think 15:37
[particle] so, captures are amorphous solids, they are not rigid, and given proper conditions, *eventually* take the shape of their containers.
ruoso that sounds weird
TimToady well, time travel is usually weird, but that's the whole point of captures 15:38
ruoso the problem is that this works fine for assignemnt... but sounds strange for binding
TimToady they're an entanglement of arguments that don't collapse until observed
PerlJam masak: though, I don't see Junction explicitly mentioned in the smart match table in S03, so maybe that needs more documentation.
TimToady forget assignment, it's a second-order operation 15:39
masak PerlJam: maybe it simply autothreads.
[particle] i'm trying to stay with classical mechanics here--you just can't resist going quantum :)
TimToady you of all people...
masak PerlJam: though I'm a bit uncerain what would happen in the face of several simultaneous matching regexes.
15:39 kane_ left
[particle] waves 15:40
PerlJam heh
masak TimToady: maybe he's both classical and quantum, depending on one's perspective. :)
PerlJam so ... a capture is a quantum of uncertainty?
TimToady well, we're emulating quantum with classical, of course, just as we are with junctions
[particle] i'm moving slowly this morning, like timtoady
ruoso hmm...
masak saving relativistic for the evening.
TimToady it's an entanglement that has not yet been observed
ruoso that means 1 of 2 things... 15:41
TimToady context is the observation
15:41 pmurias joined
ruoso 1) every value has the chance of modifying itself for a bind operation 15:41
2) the runtime checks to see if that's a capture, which might need to modify itself for a bind operation
TimToady more like
1) capture has the chance to modify itself as soon as it knows the context 15:42
2) binding is one way of providing context
ruoso right... right... but in order to "capture" to have a chance, we either make it an exception, or provide that to every object... 15:43
hmm... can we know syntatically when we're dealing with captures?
TimToady I believe so 15:44
though of course $x could contain one without knowing it
[particle] or an anonymous closure 15:45
TimToady but that's the difference between \ and not \
ruoso but it doesn't perform as a capture unless you de-reference it
TimToady right, so basically yes, wrt naked captures
we've tried to keep that an invariant
ruoso ok... so the only way of getting a capture as-is is to use the capture sigil 15:46
or use the capturize opertor
TimToady or binding to an appropriate thingie
ruoso like? 15:47
TimToady we currently have |$x and @@x which we're thinking how to unify
possibly using Ā¢
15:48 kane__ left
TimToady e=mĀ¢Ā² 15:48
ruoso so... "my $a := \foo()" is the same as "my Ā¢a = foo()" 15:49
actually
"my $a = \foo()" is the same as "my Ā¢a = foo()"
"foo(|$a)" is the same as "foo(Ā¢a)" 15:50
TimToady funny that Ā¢ can be taken to mean "no context"
ruoso yes... precisely...
skids ...or french \( 15:51
lambdabot skids: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
[particle] ahem. that's E, not e.
TimToady that would be precisement
ruoso my $a = \foo() is an explicit request to "enclose the capture in a scalar" 15:52
TimToady sorry, git doesn't support uppercase
ruoso my Ā¢a = foo() is simply "don't do anything with the return of foo"
TimToady I can see some styles of programming where that turns into my a = foo(), but nevermind 15:53
[particle] Ā¢grammar
there's only one reasonable thing that variable can contain.
TimToady not C#? 15:54
[particle] :)
skids But if it's also @@ that means it indexes, right, ōæ½xA2a[0]? In fact you have to index it? 15:56
TimToady nature abhors a naked Ā¢ingularity, but that will confuse the phone people...
ruoso skids, the question is not if you index it or not... but if you flatten it or not...
TimToady which is to say [0] produces something different on the capture than on the flattened list 15:57
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TimToady well, depending on whether the first positional is itself a capture... 15:57
[particle] captures are as confusing as soap envelopes
ruoso captures are more unstable matter than junctions 15:58
Matt-W All I've done with captures is rather akin to a Perl 5 reference - stopping a hash interpolating into a list
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ruoso Matt-W, except that it holds both positional and named... 15:59
ruoso .oO( that looks like a php array ;)
TimToady php confuses the two
captures keep them separate
Matt-W yeah well I just did a very simple thing, I know they can do a whole load of weird stuff I don't understand yet
TimToady in Perl 5 terms, they let us defer the decision on the context of (@array,1,2,3) until we know whether we're calling push or say 16:01
masak rakudo: 'class A { has %!env; method new(%env) { return A.bless({ env => %env }); }; method foo { return %!env<foo> } }; say A.new({ "foo" => "OH HAI"}).foo 16:02
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Syntax error at line 1, near "'class A {"ā¤ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)ā¤Ā»
masak rakudo: class A { has %!env; method new(%env) { return A.bless({ env => %env }); }; method foo { return %!env<foo> } }; say A.new({ "foo" => "OH HAI"}).foo
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Use of uninitialized valueā¤ā¤Ā»
masak what am I doing wrong?
ruoso masak, iirc, bless receives the candidate object as first argument...
so it seems you're reblessing the hash as A 16:03
masak isn't that what I want?
I took the syntax out of S12.
skids Anyway a question I sent ruoso yesterday still stands for @@a = (1,foo(),2;3,4,5); # given special capture meaning of @@, does @@a[0] call foo or only @@a[0;1]?
masak this is the first new method I try to write.
ruoso masak, that's actually a point I always forgot to ask for clarification... 16:04
masak ok, so let's do it now. :)
ruoso masak, in SMOP that is implemented through the REPR api
TimToady hides
masak :D
ruoso in my head, we need to add a special cast there...
because as you can create an actual hash, 16:05
Matt-W Here we go: the results of the last couple of hours of writing, testing code and fighting Wordpress: alledora.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2009/03/23/377 <- some gushing over grammars and action methods, probably containing mistakes.
masak TimToady: come back! we need to ask you something.
ruoso masak, the usual way of doing it is bless(::p6opaque.^!CREATE()) -- if we assume the REPR API 16:06
[particle] brews a pot of coffee for timtoady
TimToady what .bless does may certainly be type dependent
masak TimToady: but in the above case...?
ruoso TimToady, hmm... if the candidate to bless is a hash... hmm.... 16:08
I'm not sure how that could be done without the REPR API 16:10
but...
TimToady skids: .[0] of a slice is supposed to produce the list before the first ;
ruoso TimToady, but the call to foo() happens at accessing time? 16:11
masak jnthn: is it possible to override 'new' in Rakudo today? 16:12
TimToady no, functions are called when the capture is evaluated, but may return lazy lists themselves
ruoso with the REPR API, that hash could be enclosed into ::blessedHash, which implements the REPR API using the candidate hash as storage...
ok that was what I expected... and the actual question skids asked ;)
TimToady $x = \(1,2,3,die "oops"); # dies before $x is assigned
16:13 sri_kraih joined
TimToady I don't see how it could possible get [0;1] when the first slice starts with 1 16:13
*possibly
masak jnthn: more precisely, if I want to override the 'new' method as I did above, how would I go about it? 16:14
TimToady biab & 16:15
ruoso masak, last time I checked, rakudo don't support representation polymorphism... and no plans on supporting it yet... 16:16
masak ruoso: is that answer an answer to my question? :)
ruoso yes...
masak I was asking about the 'new' method.
not about 'representation polymorphism'.
ruoso ah... sorry... I thought it was about your earlier question
masak which one? 16:17
jnthn masak: (sorry, bit distracted on $other_thing atm)
masak jnthn: ok.
jnthn masak: I think new should be overridable
ruoso the A.bless({ env => %env }) questin
jnthn Yes, basing things on other representations we don't support just yet
masak ruoso: the 'bless' was just a means to an end; creating a 'new' method.
jnthn: do you see what it is I want to do?
(and that it doesn't work) 16:18
jnthn rakudo: class Foo { method new { say 42 } }; Foo.new
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«42ā¤Ā»
ruoso you need jnthn to expose p6object to Perl 6
(is that how it is called?)
masak jnthn: well, saying 42 is nice and all...
jnthn: I'd like .new to return a new object. :P
jnthn Damm, awkward ain't you. :-P
masak aye.
jnthn masak: I think the answer involves create...can you give me some moments to finish up the other thing I'm working on, and I'll get back to you? 16:19
masak jnthn: absolutely.
jnthn Thanks.
masak you make it sound as if I'm doing you the favour. :P
16:21 FurnaceBoy is now known as FurnaceBoy|afk
jnthn just found one comment written in English amongst a sea of Swedish comments in a file. 16:21
The comment?
'Do tha' stuff
...useful...
masak 哈哈
those Swedes... 16:22
jnthn sometimes wonders when reading some code if a brain isn't a pre-requisite for programming...
Matt-W celebrates 16:25
all Form tests now pass
no, I didn't take any of them away to achieve that
mberends Matt-W++ # also for the gushing blog
masak Matt-W: time to write more tests! :)
Matt-W masak: no, time to make dinner, but in principle yes more tests 16:26
ruoso Matt-W, btw, you don't need the gather/take to get lazyness in "for" 16:27
16:28 sri_kraih_ left 16:30 ejs left
szabgab is there a perl 5 module that can read/read perl 6 data structures (aka .perl stringifications) ? 16:31
mberends szabgab: eval()
szabgab and I mean read/write of course
hmm
masak szabgab: read: eval. write: .perl 16:32
szabgab thta's the perl 6 side
and on perl 5 side that would be Data::Dumper I guess
and eval
pmurias v6.pm
Matt-W ruoso: I don't??
16:33 blongden joined
ruoso Matt-W, for is lazy 16:33
Matt-W oooh
okay
still, gather/take is cool
ruoso Matt-W, you need to use "loop" if you really want imperative-style
pmurias szabgab: to read perl6 code you need a perl6 implementation
Matt-W ruoso: no thankyou :)
szabgab pmurias, I am only interested in data structues that perl5 can understand 16:34
BTW I put my code here: github.com/szabgab/perl6-in-perl5/tree/master
ruoso pmurias, btw... I realized the refactoring in smop is going to make it clearer on how to implement SMOPP5
SMOPP5 will just need to replace the "interpreter" module 16:35
(in the smop side, that is)
mberends szabgab: language independent data structures would be YAML. Perl 5 libs are stable, Perl 6 ones are in development. 16:36
szabgab yeah, that might be one way to pass parameters 16:37
pmurias szabgab: if you are doing language interop stringifing stuff is not a good idea 16:39
16:39 blongden left
pmurias unless you are interfacing with tcl 16:39
szabgab I am trying to allow calling perl 6 code running in rakudo from perl 5
pmurias i guessed that ;) 16:40
you should wrap the pmc as a sv and the sv as pmcs
jnthn szabgab: I guess you'd need to transform the P5 variables into PMCs.
I don't know a great deal of p5guts, though... 16:41
ruoso rakudo: say Object.CREATE;
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Object<0xb609ce80>ā¤Ā»
ruoso masak, that's what you need
:)
masak ruoso: ah.
pmurias szabgab: i did something similiar for smop as my uni C course task
diakopter it takes guts to learn guts
ruoso p5 guts is not that complicated... 16:42
szabgab pmurias, for now the simple case of passing individual scalar works
and it is not clear to me yet how should other things work 16:43
ruoso szabgab, the trick is implementing a P5V PMC
*P5SV
szabgab what is that ?
masak ruoso: and if I want to CREATE the object with one attribute set? (as in my original one-liner)
szabgab ah an SV ? 16:44
don't know anything about those, but it works :-)
ruoso masak, then you need the REPR API 16:45
masak, but...
masak ah, a glimmer of hope!
ruoso BUILDALL accepts a set of protoobjects
I don't know if that is implemented in rakudo
masak ruoso: maybe I can CREATE, and then use the accessors on the object? 16:46
that'd work for me.
ruoso rakudo: say Int.CREATE;
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«0ā¤Ā»
ruoso rakudo CREATE is a bit smarter than expected
it doesn't simply create a storage of that representation... I don't think you even need to call bless.. 16:47
masak rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; $a.env = { foo => 'bar' }; say $a.env<foo>
ruoso but that's not exactly the way it's specced
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Null PMC access in getprop()ā¤current instr.: 'infix:=' pc 13848 (src/builtins/assign.pir:21)ā¤Ā»
masak wohoo!
masak submits rakudobug
rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; $a.env = { foo => 'bar' };
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Null PMC access in getprop()ā¤current instr.: 'infix:=' pc 13848 (src/builtins/assign.pir:21)ā¤Ā»
masak rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; 16:48
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: RESULTĀ«A.new()Ā»
masak that assignment should work, right?
ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; $a.BUILDALL(env => {foo => 'bar'});
pmurias are there any TPF application guidelines/templates
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too many named arguments - 'env' not expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; $a.BUILDALL(A{ env => {foo => 'bar'}});
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too few arguments passed (2) - 4 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; $a.BUILDALL((env => {foo => 'bar'})); 16:49
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too few arguments passed (2) - 4 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
ruoso masak, you can submit that as a rakudobug also...
ah wait...
masak waits
ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; A.BUILDALL($a, (env => {foo => 'bar'}));
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too few arguments passed (3) - 4 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
ruoso rakudo: say Object.BUILDALL.signature 16:50
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too few arguments passed (1) - 4 params expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
jnthn rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; A.BUILDALL(A, $a, (env => {foo => 'bar'}));
ruoso rakudo: say Object.^can('BUILDALL').signature
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«shift_pmc() not implemented in class 'Perl6Pair'ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1341 (src/classes/Object.pir:363)ā¤Ā»
rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Method 'signature' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 637 (src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:161)ā¤Ā»
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ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; A.BUILDALL(A, $a, A{env => {foo => 'bar'}}); 16:51
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«argument doesn't hashā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILD' pc 1142 (src/classes/Object.pir:281)ā¤Ā»
masak that's a reported parrotbug, methinks.
ruoso jnthn, but why does BUILDALL receives A twice?
jnthn ruoso: I dunno. ;-) 16:52
ruoso: I haven't really looked at the object initialization stuff.
ruoso rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; A.BUILDALL(A, $a, {env => {foo => 'bar'}});
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«argument doesn't hashā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILD' pc 1142 (src/classes/Object.pir:281)ā¤Ā»
ruoso interesting...
jnthn It's managing to call a BUILD and then blowing up. Hmm.
rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; my %h = env => { foo => 'bar' }; A.BUILDALL(A, $a, %h) 16:53
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«argument doesn't hashā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILD' pc 1142 (src/classes/Object.pir:281)ā¤Ā»
jnthn rakudo: class A { has %.env is rw }; my $a = A.CREATE; my %h = env => { foo => 'bar' }; A.BUILDALL(A, $a, env => { foo => 'bar' }) 16:54
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«too many named arguments - 'env' not expectedā¤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;BUILDALL' pc 1272 (src/classes/Object.pir:331)ā¤Ā»
jnthn meh
I'll have to look at the spec/source.
ruoso BUILDALL was supposed to have *%_ as args
jnthn Yeah, I thought so too.
(I actually thought it did...)
(As in, did in Rakudo.) 16:55
ruoso it's $proto.BUILDALL($candidate, *@protoobjects, *%attributes) IIRC
masak it would be good if I could define my own 'new' method... 16:58
mberends masak: it's supposed to be possible, if you make it bless your $object ... somehow 16:59
read that on #perl6
jnthn masak: The problem isn't writing your own .new, it's just what to write in there. :-)
masak: I'll look into it.
masak jnthn: thank you. 17:00
ruoso basically the problem seems to be in BUILDALL... all the rest seems to be working just fine
jnthn Just trying to get some other bits polished off so I can spend the evening on Rakudo stuff.
pmichaud I suspect that Rakudo's BUILD/BUILDALL isn't completely following the SMOP OO API yet
jnthn pmichaud: Feel free to beat me to investigating; I need to finish some stuff up and then do dinner yet...
pmichaud I'm still working through my backlog here -- but yes, one of us should get to it soon. 17:01
jnthn Aye.
pmichaud I don't have a problem with refactoring the existing BUILD/BUILDALL to be more "correct"
(i.e., I don't have a problem if someone else works on it)
jnthn Sure. I just don't want to make it less correct in the process. ;-)
pmichaud what's there now was simply attempting to get us through the parameter refactor earlier in the year.
TimToady bless is supposed to call BUILDALL for you automatically 17:02
but only if the metaclass needs it :)
17:02 masak left
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, OK. I feel less bad about hacking on it in that case. 17:02
17:02 zamolxes left
ruoso while not spec, the implementation in pugs_repo/v6/smop/src-s1p/*.pm is a result of a deep process of trying to understand S12 17:02
jnthn Well, I didn't feel bad anyway, but... :-)
ruoso specially ClassHOW.pm and Object.pm 17:03
jnthn ruoso: Thanks, I've glanced at those before, I'll take another look.
ClassHOW I already did look at a bit and followed somewhat on the dispatch thingy.
But now I'm less sure dispatch's interface is really enough. 17:04
ruoso jnthn, I really wish we could promote the REPR API to spec someday 17:05
jnthn (e.g. for implementing .*, .?, .+ and so forth)
ruoso jnthn, I was assuming .* .? and .+ were external to the object
jnthn Built through the introspection interface? 17:06
ruoso yes...
but...
jnthn Since how a metaclass does the storage of its method table is stuff that only it knows.
ruoso maybe it works as adverbs to the dispatch method
jnthn Yeah
I also pondered .WALK
ruoso :quantifier
jnthn Because surely the metaclass needs to help with that too...
Or is that already in the HOW API? 17:07
ruoso if it's not, it should be written
17:07 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner, pmurias left
jnthn Aye. But the another bit of me though, well, if we have WALK, do we really need .dispatch, or could we give .WALK an adverb saying "just the first matching one akshually" 17:08
s/the/then/
Which would provide our method lookup. And then it's just invoking it...
ruoso jnthn, I actually wasn't thinking in WALK as a real type...
I was thinking of it more like an abstract idea
jnthn ruoso: Type? You mean method? 17:09
ruoso er... the method is ^can
jnthn OK, but my point is that if we've got all these, do we really need ^dispatch too?
17:09 pmurias joined
ruoso jnthn, I see your point... 17:10
jnthn ruoso: (BTW WALK is listed as a method in S12) 17:11
ruoso: I'm just thinking that it feels like it'd be duplication of code.
ruoso hmm...
baest hello, I've found a test file in t/spec which isn't used in rakudo, but 14 out of 17 tests passes fine (with a single error correction in the test). I've added 'rakudo skip' for the failed tests for now. Can I submit a patch and if yes where to?
ruoso I missed that..
jnthn, I think this represents different levels of abstraction 17:12
jnthn baest: You can likely just have a commit bit to the Pugs repo to update the spectest.
ruoso .^dispatch being the most opaque
.WALK being the most transparent
17:12 gdonald joined
jnthn baest: But patches can go to [email@hidden.address] 17:12
baest jnthn: I think I've have a commitbit for pugs, but I've misplaced it (never used it and got 2 years ago) 17:13
17:13 gdonald left
baest jnthn: great thanks, just a update to t/spectest.data so I'll post that 17:14
jnthn OK, great.
ruoso jnthn, I think I assumed WALK is a type becuase of "Unlike in Perl 5 where .can returns a single Code object, Perl 6's version of .^can returns a "WALK" iterator for a set of routines that match the name" in S12
jnthn Yeah
I'm not thinking...hmm, so what is the difference between can and WALK other than that WALK lets you walk in different orderings... 17:15
Oh, and gives a list rather than an interator.
Hmm.
Oh, or maybe it is an iterator that gets fully evaluated on the binding. 17:16
ruoso jnthn, it can be just a lazy list, can't it?
jnthn Yeah, for sure.
Well
If we want to assume lazy lists exist at that kinda level 17:17
(I'm thinking bootstrapping stuff.)
ruoso I think .WALK shouldn't really be spec...
it looks too much implementation specific
ok... spec yes,
but not required on every object... 17:18
that's a different thing...
like... if HOW does Walkable
because not all object systems will have this information available
that's where I think the different levels of abstraction play an important role 17:19
for instance...
jnthn Hmm.
ruoso it might be possible that a HOW knows how to implement .^dispatch
jnthn But what about .can in that case?
ruoso but doesn't know how to implement .^can
can is a in-between
jnthn Since it would seem to need to return an interator of the same info.
Just with less options for getting at it.
ruoso but it doesn't support a lot of stuff WALK does
jnthn OK, but the point is that the first result of the iterator can hands back is enough to dispatch, no? 17:20
I can see why we'd not want to mandate WALK
ruoso but even .^can... one object could live a long life only providing .^dispatch 17:21
17:21 amoc left
jnthn (To be fair, part of my point behind all of this is that while .^dispatch really doesn't fit well into the Parrot model, .^can does) 17:21
ruoso .^dispatch simply provides the most opaque abstraction to call an arbitrary method in that object 17:22
for instance...
.^can returns a list of the candidates 17:23
jnthn (If we say that it's allowable to implement . by taking the first thing .^can hands back or by calling .^dispatch and that's an implementation specific decision and the meta-class should make sure it is smart enough about that, I'm happy enough.)
ruoso jnthn, that doesn't make much difference while you don't think about representation polymorphism 17:24
but if you take repr into account... it makes a big difference...
jnthn If you're saying that .^can should always be available, even if not .^WALK or whatever is behind WALK, I don't see how that follows. 17:25
ruoso so... I'd say that you're free to optimize however you like for the known case...
17:25 khisanth_ joined
ruoso I say that we can even make .^can optional 17:25
and provide several layers of abstraction to the metaclass implementation to choose 17:26
(of course you can't use multiple dispatch if it doesn't provide WALK)
jnthn Can you give me a concrete situation when this makes sense?
(Not providing ^can, but providing ^dispatch)
ruoso hmm.. 17:27
I'm mostly thikning about foreign object systems
and allowing a low-barrier for the implementation of such interoperability 17:28
for instance...
a kinda-oo implementation in C 17:29
pugs_svn r25978 | baest++ | Adding myself to AUTHORS
ruoso that defines a pattern on the name of the methods
Matt-W like GObject?
17:29 NordQ joined
ruoso yeah... for instance... (but GObject is powerful enough to provide the introspection) 17:29
Matt-W true
I'm hoping one day we can get a GTK+ binding autogenerated for Perl 6 using introspection 17:30
pugs_svn r25979 | baest++ | Fixing a minor bug and adding rakudo skips
jnthn Hmm.
Matt-W but even if it didn't have that ,it's always had a strong name patter
n
jnthn Yeah, perhaps you're right there will be cases. 17:31
ruoso jnthn, so simply implementing .^dispatch would allow me to use that oo system in Perl 6
jnthn Of course, ^can could always hand back an iterator of something that when you invoke it will attempt to do a call by that name.
e.g. just thunk it.
ruoso right... but why fake it?
jnthn So there are solutions for those systems in .^can too.
To be able to avoid .^dispatch. 17:32
17:32 Khisanth left
jnthn e.g. the need for .^dispatch 17:32
ruoso what's so bad about it?
jnthn Parrot's model for method invocation is two-step. Lookup, then invoke what the lookup returns.
ruoso (remember, if you know the HOW and you know the REPR... you're free to optimize it)
jnthn .^dispatch adds a layer of indirection.
17:32 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
jnthn Sure, but it's nice if it doesn't need optimizing. ;-) 17:33
ruoso jnthn, in SMOP, for instance, .^can is considerably more expensive than .^dispatch
jnthn Hmm. :-)
I guess if it's optimizable for the default meta-class it's less of a concern. 17:34
ruoso jnthn, but actually... I don't think we need to spec one way or another 17:35
jnthn Well, we do if ^can is meant to be optional. ;-) 17:36
ruoso right...
TimToady it would be nice if nextsame were not implementation dependent though
at least for P6 objects
point taken about foreign methods
ruoso my point was actually just about that 17:37
I mis-expressed myself
jnthn, in SMOP every invocation is internal to the object... that's the fundamental difference in our pov 17:38
jnthn ruoso: Clarify what you mean by "internal to the object"
17:39 kolibrie joined
ruoso it means that $obj.foo in Perl 6 turns out to be $obj.foo in the low-level as well 17:39
the invocation is equal in low-level or high-level
jnthn Right, which I'd kinda like to be true in Parrot. ;-)
ruoso but that means I have no public vtable
every invocation is the high-level invocation... receiving a caputre 17:40
jnthn Thing is that the lookup of what to call is internal to the object.
(In Parrot)
That's what find_method does
ruoso but the invocation itself is external 17:41
jnthn find_method hands back what to invoke
And we it's invoked
s/we/then/ 17:42
ruoso where find_method is in the vtable, is it?
jnthn Or put another way, ^can and postcircumfix:{ } map quite neatly down to Parrot
Yes, find_method is in the PMC vtable.
ruoso having dispatch in the PMC vtable would be too bad?
jnthn Where as ^dispatch maps less neatly.
It would be. The point is that vtable calls are pretty "low-level" things. 17:43
You perform larger operations by building them up from smaller ones. 17:44
dispatch is built up from find_method and invoke.
ruoso but can't it be installed in the same level?
jnthn No.
ruoso because of re-entrancy/ 17:45
?
because I mean... find_methods can be something not really low-level
like... it might require traversing a WSDL
(considering a SOAP Object System)
jnthn Sure, and we can re-enter, but it's costly. 17:46
A dispatch v-table method is *doable*.
But it's not making good use of Parrot's architecture.
pmichaud ...but it doesn't sound very perlish to me.
ruoso the vtable must have the same entries for every PMC? 17:47
17:47 eternaleye_ left
jnthn The vtable is per-class. 17:47
Per type of PMC
ruoso Ok... 17:48
jnthn Depends if you're using PMC in that sentence to mean pMC instance or not.
But basically it boils down to
If you want to make a call in a v-table method, you have to then do it in another run-loop. 17:49
That is, make a call back to high-level stuff.
And that's expensive.
We'd like to be able to make the common case - $object.method - fast.
If we have to keep ^dispatch, then as you note, we can probably optimize it away in a lot of cases. 17:50
ruoso right... can $object.method behavior be dependent on the pmc type of $object?
jnthn Yes.
pmichaud welll.....
ruoso so the question is solved
pmichaud I'm not so sure I agree with jnthn's answer
jnthn OK, it depends what you mean by "type of $object" 17:51
ruoso which answer?
jnthn If you mean the type of the PMC, then yes, it can be.
ruoso "PMC Type" of $object
pmichaud iiuc, $object.method at parrot's normal level actually translates into two operations
jnthn In that case, yes, find_method can be implemented per PMC.
pmichaud find_method and invoke
jnthn Right. That's what I've been saying, essentially.
ruoso ok... that was not what I asked ;)
pmichaud find method can be dependent on the type of the pmc.... invoke is less so. 17:52
jnthn So in Perl 6 terms, that's a bit like ^can and postcircumfix:{ }
pmichaud I think you mean postcircumfix:<( )>
jnthn Huh?
Oh, angles. :-)
pmichaud invoke is postcircumfix-parens, not postcircumfix-braces
jnthn Oh!
Yes.
Sorry.
what pm said :-) 17:53
ruoso but....
find_method, invoke
happens independent of the PMC type
pmichaud the fact that obj.'method'(...) translates to find_method and invoke is independent of the PMC type, yes.
ruoso no matter how each of them are implemented
pmichaud what find_method returns is polymorphic on the PMC 17:54
and what invoke does is polymorphic on the PMC
(in the case of invoke, it's based on the PMC returned by find_method)
jnthn Note that what invoke does is polymorphic on _the PMC returned by find_method_.
ruoso right...
pmichaud so, obj.'method'(...) becomes essentially:
$P1 = find_method obj, 'method'
$P1(obj, ...) 17:55
ruoso pmichaud, you use obj.'method', but I assume obj.method (without the quotes) is the same
pmichaud ruoso: in PIR the quotes are required around a method name.
ruoso ah... ok
pmichaud (that's relatively recent) 17:56
ruoso how hard would it be to pessimize on unknown PMC types?
pmichaud what's an "unknown PMC type", though?
[particle] otherwise it looks for a named register (.pmc local method) and calls get_string on that, and tries to invoke that
ruoso not in the parrot core 17:57
pmichaud at runtime the PMC types are known.
at compile-time, all PMC types look the same.
i.e., registers aren't "typed"
[particle] ruoso: all pmcs have an invoke vtable, so any pmc can be invoked.
ruoso right... let me rephrase
[particle] if the pmc doesn't implement invoke vtable, it inherits one 17:58
it may inherit from Null PMC, which throws an exception
pmichaud (actually I think it inherits from 'default' PMC)
jnthn Or the default pMC, which throws a different exception.
[particle] ah, right, default.
so you can catch that exception, and realize it's not Invokable 17:59
ruoso I assume every PMC needs to implement find_method as well
pmichaud it's inherited from the default if not implemented. 18:00
jnthn No, but there is a default one that is inherited.
ruoso yes... that's what I mean...
[particle] there are 140+ vtable entries, every pmc has an entry of each
pmichaud every PMC has a vtable entry, yes.
every PMC has a vtable entry for find_method, yes.
ruoso so the vtable is static
that's a better way of putting that question...
the vtable access is static, that is 18:01
[particle] the vtable is the api.
TimToady the RI?
jnthn Right. The vtable is a set of operations that something might know how to do.
ruoso kinda... but SMOP RI has only one entry... (besides the gc stuff)
jnthn (Or might not know how to do, in which case you'll get an exception.)
ruoso jnthn, so it wouldn't be so hard to pessimize with a TryCallingDispatchInstead.... 18:02
*TryCallingDispatchInsteadException....
TimToady an I'm-Really-Prototype-Based exception :) 18:03
ruoso jnthn, but then I guess you can get the HOW without having to call find_method, right?
jnthn ruoso: I don't quite see what your suggesting... 18:04
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ruoso if that HOW can't implement .^can 18:04
it will throw an exception in find_method
TryCallingDispatchInsteadException ;)
jnthn Ah
ruoso does it fit? 18:05
jnthn thinking
Possibly.
pmichaud it still bugs me that all of our method dispatch is having to go through the HOW
that's "overhead" to Parrot.
TimToady the I-can't-can exception :)
[particle] yep, can't use parrot's can
pmichaud I should say "that's additional overhead" to Parrot.
jnthn pmichaud: Aye, thus this discussion.
pmichaud okay. 18:06
jnthn's the lead for the Parrot side of this discussion :-)
jnthn Gah! Responsibility?!
;-)
ruoso pmichaud, not all method dispatch needs to go through the HOW
TimToady cheers loudly for both teams!!!
ruoso if you know the low-level for every involved
you can cheat
[particle] wonders who the referee is 18:07
...and boos him loudly
moritz_ ceiling cat ;-)
pmichaud at compile-time I don't think we know the low-level for everything involved.
perhaps we can do that... but it seems 'iffy'
ruoso that's what JIT is for, isnt' it?
jnthn sub foo($x) { $x.bar(); } # we don't know about $x
PerlJam TimToady: just like IBM backed both ASCII and EBCDIC at one point?
[particle] iffy is taken, you need a new term :)
TimToady is fortunately to have gathered players who need cheering more than they need to have fouls called on them.
s/ly// 18:08
pmichaud as far as "that's what JIT is for..." I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to there.
ruoso pmichaud, check if $x is P6Object, if its how is ClassHOW, then call this optimized version 18:09
(actually, you don't even need JIT to do that)
pmichaud that's still "overhead"
TimToady more like trace optimizatoin
pmichaud ideally we'd like to just generate x.'method'(...) and not have to do the checks.
ruoso yeah... I'm not really aware of most of those techiniques... but nothingmuch convinced me that some people know how to make it be fast ;)
pmichaud if we have to do the checks, then it becomes '!dispatch'(x, 'method', ...) and we get the overhead 18:10
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[particle] unless there's a super-lightweight check, like a 'nativeobject' flagbit 18:10
ruoso [particle], that's what I'm talkign about... that's what I mean for "known pmc types" 18:11
pmichaud I still don't understand 'known pmc types'. at compile-time, we don't know the type.
at runtime, we know all of the types.
[particle] 'known' as in 'i know how to dispatch this, no need to check' 18:12
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ruoso by known I mean the ones you can assume the internal low-level layout 18:12
pmichaud, but I think we lost a point here...
pmichaud I already know the low-level layout of a PMC. That's what a PMC defines. 18:13
TimToady checking a bit sounds wrong
[particle] yeah, to me too, it's just an example
ruoso pmichaud, is the ICantCanException still overhead?
TimToady any VM is going to have native thingies, and other things that are proxied through the native thingies
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pmichaud ruoso: depends on what you want to be doing the 'canning' ? 18:13
ruoso TimToady, er... SMOP supports completely unknown things...
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[particle] smop is a collection of vm's 18:14
:)
moritz_ in 2009 you write meta-VMs
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pmichaud in the phrase ICantCanException, what is the "I" ? 18:14
ruoso pmichaud, the PMC
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pmichaud you're asking if a PMC can throw an exception for methods it doesn't understand? 18:15
ruoso pmichaud, the point here is making $object.^can optional
jnthn pmichaud: This comes down to, ruoso thinks that ^can should be optional.
ruoso so foreign implementations can go straight for .^dispatch
so, as parrot always do a two-step invocation
pmichaud okay, I'm missing a point then.
ruoso I was considering that if find_method raised an exception for the cases where .^can is not implemented 18:16
it could use a different invocation mechanism
jnthn pmichaud: I think that I'd rather do away with ^dispatch, and ^can in the event that you have a metaclass that doesn't know without trying what methods it can dispatch will hand back something that you can then invoke, and it will then fail when you try to invoke it.
pmichaud jnthn: what are you envisioning as the invocation sequence for $x.bar() ? 18:17
i.e., the PIR code generated?
jnthn $P0 = find_lex '$x'
$P0.bar()
pmichaud okay, that's what I want also.
jnthn pmichaud: And we'd not use Parrot's Object PMC, but our own that does the Right Thing in the find_method vtable.
pmichaud so where does ^can fit into this?
ruoso confused...
jnthn pmichaud: ^can maps down more to find_method than Parrot's idea of can. 18:18
TimToady how does nextsame work?
pmichaud jnthn: no problem, I got that.
but I don't see ^can in the $P0.bar() sequence.
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jnthn pmichaud: find_method *is* our ^can 18:18
pmichaud okay. thinking. 18:19
jnthn (And anything that isn't based on our default - optimized - P6Opaque will have a find_method that actually calls the metaclass' can)
ruoso jnthn, not only P6Opaque, but the HOW also
pmichaud actually, anything that isn't based on our P6Opaque would end up doing Parrot's normal find_method semantics, yes?
jnthn pmichaud: Yes.
pmichaud: Apart from in Perl 6 you might have written a knowhow 18:20
And want to call its ^can
pmichaud jnthn: so then our P6Opaque's find_method would do any needed HOW checking and pessimizing?
ruoso exactly... you have to look both at the representation *and* the HOW
jnthn pmichaud: I was proposing we have a P6Opaque PMC that doesn't need to pessimize at all, and another one that is the basis for the other representations. 18:21
pmichaud jnthn: I don't understand "other representations"
ruoso jnthn, that doesn't fit... you need to pessimize on the HOW
jnthn, you can use different metaclasses with the same representation
jnthn ruoso: Instances of an object can be used to find a HOW.
Right?
ruoso I didn't see what you mean 18:22
jnthn So find_method for anything other than P6Opaque would look up the HOW, then find and call ^can
pmichaud jnthn: what else is there besides P6Opaque, though?
(more)
because to me, "anything other than P6Opaque" includes Parrot objects
ruoso pmichaud, in theory anything the user wants
pmichaud and those Parrot objects already have a find_method
that doesn't look up the HOW 18:23
jnthn pmichaud: Which is completely fine.
pmichaud: I'm talking about the third case
ruoso jnthn, I didn't see what you mean... P6Opaque also needs to look up the HOW...
pmichaud jnthn: I don't understand the third case.
jnthn ruoso: Ah, because you could have a different HOW also using P6Opaque? 18:24
ruoso yes
jnthn Ah.
pmichaud jnthn: I see the case where we have things that are P6Opaque, and we have things that aren't P6Opaque (i.e., Parrot objects). What's the third case?
ruoso P6Opaque using ClassHOW
vs P6Opaque using SomeOtherHOW
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jnthn pmichaud: When you have written a knowhow specifying a ^can yourself. 18:24
pmichaud I don't have a problem with that.... SomeOtherHOW can override find_method also. 18:25
ruoso er...
SomeOtherHOW is not the one receiving the find_method call
is it?
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, it's just that we're confusing representation and HOW a bit.
ruoso P6Opaque => REPR
ClassHOW => HOW
nativeint => REPR
p5blessedhash => REPR 18:26
RoleHOW => HOW
you can interchange them at will
pmichaud I'll rephrase.
I don't have a problem with that -- find_method in P6Opaque can check the HOW easily enough 18:27
ruoso right... and that's it
pmichaud there's lot of cheating available there.
jnthn Right.
ruoso if you have P6Opaque with ClassHOW you can cheat as long as you want
lichtkind jnthn: hello
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jnthn lichtkind: hi! 18:27
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TimToady lazily appreciates that you guys are doing the Hard Work 18:28
jnthn But our ability to do that cheat all depends on us being able to emit $P0.'bar'() where $P0 contains the object.
pmichaud jnthn: and yes, your idea of returning an invokable PMC that then calls the correct dispatcher (for non-standard HOWs) sounds fine to me.
jnthn Oh hey! We could return a curried invocation of dispatch... 18:29
pmichaud it does make me wish that the name by which a Sub PMC was invoked was available to the Sub itself.
I've often wanted that in Parrot and can't find a way to do it.
jnthn pmichaud: It's not available because of the 2-step find_method/invoke that we're talking about here. :-) 18:30
TimToady ln -s sendmail mqueue
ruoso so... we're all happy with optional .^can?
jnthn I guess we can deal with it.
pmichaud ruoso: I'm happy if jonathan's happy, and if we're aiming again at the $P0.'bar'(...) sort of dispatch. 18:31
ruoso cool...
ruoso brb &
pmichaud I have to run to the post office (went by earlier... line was too long)
so, bbiab
TimToady thanks everyone
jnthn ruoso: So long as it's OK that Parrot does the equivalent of trying .^can first, rather than promsing a $x.bar() actually really calls .^dispatch.
Which I think we are agreeing that it can. 18:32
Because we'll fall back to .^dispatch in the cases that it can't.
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jnthn And I might find we can promise something stronger than that, even. 18:33
Anyway, me & too - need dinner
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szabgab I'd appreciate your comments on the code and the docs of Inline::Rakudo 19:10
github.com/szabgab/perl6-in-perl5/tree/master
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szabgab and if anyone know why o I need to chdir that would be great 19:11
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mberends szabgab: I think this is one of those inventions whose time has not yet come. You are probably pushing for this kind of functionality for Padre-related reasons, which are quite sophisticated. I think the majority of developers will only start to appreciate this facility when Rakudo nears completion, because then the demand for 5 <-> 6 integration will increase. For myself, pure Perl 6 is currently an adequate playground to explore. 19:25
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mberends szabgab: does interop in the reverse direction already exist, or is that coming next? I have no idea about the chdir puzzle btw, sorry. 19:40
szabgab do you mean embedding perl5 in perl 6 ? 19:41
I have no idea about that
mberends yes. Pugs did a bit of that for regexes, afair.
szabgab no, I don't understand that kind of C level stuff 19:42
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mberends too bad. the demand for both 5->6 and 6->5 will get bigger as people start porting their existing code to Rakudo, which will probably start happening in late 2009 when a 'Beta' is officially completed. 19:45
did you write that you were resuming Padre work without the pressure of a grant? 19:47
szabgab oh I was working on Padre anyway 19:48
just not on this part
but now that I have this started I'll where does it lead me
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mberends cool. it will lead to the most satisfying result. 19:51
looking forward to meeting you at NPW next month 19:52
jnthn back from dinner 19:56
japhb jnthn: two part question: a) any movement on the 'use Foo:from<parrot>;' front yet, and b) do you think it would be difficult for someone else to work on? 19:58
I'm thinking of trying my hand at it, but I don't have a huge amount of time to spare. :-(
jnthn glances around for pmichaud 19:59
japhb: On my part, no movement since you last asked, and I didn't see any other commits related to that.
Really I'm blocking more on pmichaud's input on how he wants that to look. 20:00
I'm happy to write the code if I know that.
(To be fair, I haven't exactly asked for said input. But I'll try and pursue it more actively now.)
japhb What is there to decide? (That's an honest question -- I mean, is it because there are a couple possible implementation paths?) 20:01
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japhb jnthn: much appreciated re: active pursuit. The official OpenGL bindings for Perl 5 are currently quite broken, and I can't get my fix. ;-) 20:02
Besides, no time like the present to switch to Perl 6 development for new gfx code.
I'm taking the death of the P5 bindings as a sign. 20:03
;-)
jnthn I just am aware that pm has thought it through somewhat, or maybe quite a lot, and I really haven't.
I think that it may be a case of trying to do something at a PCT level. 20:04
Rather than just some Rakudo-specific thing.
japhb nodnod 20:05
szabgab mberends, me too it will be cool in Oslo
jnthn Oslo will be The Awesome. :-) 20:07
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ruoso jnthn, yes... it is ok to try .^can first... 20:33
Diederich was there ever any consensus about what the CPAN for Perl6 would look like? 20:35
ruoso Diederich, not really... there are some sketches in the spec
Diederich there was some talk about it on Perlbuzz a while back
ruoso one thing we do know is: 20:36
Diederich I think there should be something, no matter how primitive,
as the canonical Perl 6 module repo
ruoso we have three different issues
1) source file format
Diederich it can just be a github thing
ruoso 2) installation process
3) distribution software
Diederich those need to be solved,
but having an 'official' place for the modules to exist is a lot simpler than that
(tied together to be sure..)
but some place should be selected far sooner than later, even if it changes later 20:37
if such a place existed, the chances of me working on some P5->P6 modules right now would be higher
ruoso Diederich, that is the distribution software... there's work by markov about it
Diederich and I think that's true of everyone
s/everyone/many people/ 20:38
ruoso www.cpan6.org
mberends Diederich: have you looked at pugs/misc/sixpan ?
Diederich #doesn't want to get too far ahead of things
I have looked at pugs...
not that URL
The CPAN6 network
* can be used to collect any kind of data: software, publications, photos, ...anything into archives;
cool...got it in one, Mr. Garabaldi.
alester Diederich: There will be no consensus.
Diederich there may be 20:39
alester It will be created by the people who make it happen first.
Diederich there may be after it's already there
ruoso specially because the network is *a network*
Diederich see CPAN...
ruoso it depends on people getting along
Diederich that's an amazing thing...that could happen again
the current CPAN, in my opinion, is the biggest reason that Perl5 is still relevant 20:40
Perl6 the language will be awesome by itself...and highly relevant 20:41
alester We all agree that CPAN is good.
Diederich Perl6 + CPAN6 (or whatever it is) will be way over the top
alester We all agree that Perl 6 will need a way to distribute code.
There is nothing else that can be said.
There is no Perl 6 toolchain.
ruoso alester, I consider even that there shouldn't be *a* Perl 6 toolchain 20:42
alester ruoso: THere you go.
Diederich yeah, with multiple implementation, that gets tricky
ruoso multiple implementations
alester So, again: There will be no consensus.
ruoso multiple architectures
alester There will be no advance planning.
People will do what works for them and will accrete momentum. 20:43
Diederich hm..that's kind of dour
ruoso that's why, I insist, the only thing we know so far...
alester Dour? How?
ruoso is that the three problems are completely separated
Diederich there certainly will be advanced planning!
ruoso 1) source file format
Diederich perhaps most of it will be wrong
ruoso 2) installation process
alester Certainly?
ruoso 3) distribution software
alester Who's doing the planning?
Diederich well, in a very very limited way, I guess I am
ruoso alester, actually there is some planning...
Ssomething
mberends the bazaar will beat the cathedral, in the words of Eric Raymond
Diederich it looks like [email@hidden.address] is doing some planning too
ruoso there's a DRAFT spec 20:44
I think one thing needs spec
in the "cathedral" sense
which is the "source file format"
alester So much "It needs this, it needs that"
and yet, precious little JFDI.
Diederich I agree that it'll be impossible to predict what the many 'it's' will look like in a few years
ruoso alester, sure sure... but we're still quite far from facing that problem... 20:45
we need Perl 6 out first
alester Which problem?
ruoso then we bother on how to distribute it
alester ruoso: I suspect that someone will have the CPAN part worked out well before Perl 6 is "out", whatever that means.
Diederich well, I'm going to mail the cpan6 person and talk to him about what's on his mind
and maybe help over there
which leads to some small 'JFDI' I guess 20:46
alester "The" CPAN6 person? There's not a single cpan6 person.
ruoso alester, currently, mostly there is
Diederich I'm looking at the web page
ruoso markov is mostly behind cpan6
alester "the" web page?
Diederich www.cpan6.org/
that was mentioned earlier
I'm sure there are more than that around
it's a place to start..instead of being negative about it
alester That's great, but it's irrelevant if nobody uses it. 20:47
Diederich it's unlikely it'll be nobody!
ruoso alester, I'm not quite getting your point..
alester I think you might be surpirsed.
Diederich such carelessly used absolutes are a very good way to discourage many people from doing anything
alester What aboslutes?
Diederich thus causing your predictions to be true 20:48
alester I said it's irrelevant if nobody uses it.
mberends significantly, pugs/misc/sixpan is by a different group of developers
alester My point is that the first solution to get to relased will win.
mberends aye
alester cpan6.org has not been released.
ruoso are there other initiatives going on? I'm not aware of any... 20:49
alester Doesn't matter if there are or not.
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ruoso so... what's the point? 20:49
alester My point is that just because this placeholder exists doesn't mean that it's what will happen.
ruoso agreed... but it is *something* 20:50
alester I guess, for some value of "something"
ruoso and certainly not a "placeholder"
alester It's a lot of planning and something is started.
See also: Pugs.
Diederich alester, I have a firm understanding of your perspective, thanks.
ruoso alester, I really don't understand why you're so angry about it...
alester I'm not angry at all.
mberends suggestion: let's develop many pilots and apply natural selection ;) 20:52
alester That's what's going to happen, whether you suggest it or not, mberends ;
People will do what works for them.
ruoso jnthn, what do you think about making a role hierarchy for the HOW API? to specify the features each one implements? 20:54
jnthn ruoso: I guess that implies RoleHOW has to exist in order to define ClassHOW? (Which is probably fine...)
ruoso I guess so... specially because the built-in types are roles anyway 20:55
but which roles does RoleHOW do?
;)
jnthn Yes, true.
No, don't go there. :-P
I've got enough issues just trying to extract List and Array out to be pure Perl 6... 20:56
alester If I had any sort of software to release under P6, I'd probably host it on github and make a toolchain of my own until another came along.
ruoso alester, er... that's what people already do... 20:57
alester what is out there in Perl 6 now?
ruoso november
jnthn druid
Form
alester I oughta put up a page of it.
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jnthn alester: See also www.perl6-projects.org/ 20:58
ruoso jnthn, but have you realized that (1,2,3) is not a List?
jnthn ruoso: Erm...?
ruoso it is a capture 20:59
jnthn That's be \(1,2,3) surely?
ruoso that's a capture enclosed in a scalar
I've just realized that, after trying to figure out how to deal with flatten vs unflatten
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ruoso (((1,2,3),2,3),2,3) 20:59
jnthn Is this spec, or the results of your ponderings? 21:00
ruoso results of my ponderings...
jnthn Ah.
ruoso which usually are more dangerous than spec ;)
jnthn That's different.
Yeah
;-)
ruoso anyway...
jnthn The thing that makes me suspect otherwise is that
my $x = (1,2,3); # $x holds a capture now
I think ti's the item context that makes it beomce a capture.
That changed recently-ish (before, it became an Array). 21:01
alester anyone got a URL for Form?
ruoso jnthn, an capture in item context returns itself, unless it contains only one parameter (named or positional) 21:02
and capture implements both .[] and .{}
ruoso decommute &
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jnthn alester: You may also find github.com/masak/proto/tree/master interesting. 21:03
alester Interesting how?
What is it
jnthn See README but basically a lightweight module installer. 21:04
That knows where to find from github a bunch of Perl 6 related proejcts.
github.com/masak/proto/blob/e8627fc...dules.list actually tells you where Form is too ;-)
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jnthn (github.com/mattw/form/tree/master) 21:05
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alester rakudo.org/perl-6-projects started 21:06
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moritz_ rakudo: Q<< foo < ' > bar >>.say 21:31
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ« foo < ' > bar ā¤Ā»
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moritz_ github.com/moritz/json/tree/master very early grammar for JSON 21:50
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frioux moritz_: that's really cool! 21:55
moritz_ frioux: thanks
it's still a *very* early version 21:56
Matt-W So much exciting stuff going on these days
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moritz_ rakudo: rule a { '[' ~ ']' A? }; say '[ ]' ~~ /<a>/ 22:02
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«Unable to parse a, couldn't find final ']'ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Match;FAILGOAL' pc 2927 (compilers/pge/PGE/Regex.pir:456)ā¤Ā»
moritz_ a bug? 22:03
moritz_ wants LTM 22:04
jnthn rakudo: rule a { '[' ~ ']' A? }; say '[]' ~~ /<a>/
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«[]ā¤Ā»
jnthn rakudo: rule a { '[' ~ ']' [ A? ] }; say '[ ]' ~~ /<a>/ 22:05
p6eval rakudo 1c263b: OUTPUTĀ«[ ]ā¤Ā»
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jnthn moritz_: Dubious. 22:05
moritz_ jnthn: probably up for debate
jnthn moritz_: It's to do with whether there's a <.ws> see either side of the A?
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jnthn s/'?'/./ 22:06
moritz_ jnthn: I know
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jnthn But hard to call, what the answer on that is. 22:06
moritz_ the current behaviour makes kind of sense
because ~ acts on the next two atoms
jnthn Right.
moritz_ and if you count implicit <.ws> as atoms, then DWIM is in trouble
jnthn Aye. 22:07
moritz_ so not ticket ;-)
jnthn Phew! ;-)
moritz_ anyway, the <.ws> thing usually *really* dwims 22:08
for the JSON grammar I'm writing that's cool
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moritz_ and it's so nice that $somebody already wrote tests 22:11
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moritz_ all JSON parsing tests pass. Nice. 22:34
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moritz_ that was... not too hard 22:34
I'll wait with the action methods und .caps and .chunks are updated in Rakudo... 22:35
which I plan to do as soon as %($/).pairs stops to stringify its value
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dalek kudo: 7487710 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | t/spectest.data:
Add S05-metasyntax/repeat.t to t/spectest.data
 22:43
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frooh_away moritz_: what are all the {*}'sin the JSON grammar? 23:15
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moritz_ frooh: they are hooks for action methods (soon to come) 23:21
frooh ooh
cool
so I can make a SAX-like parser with this.
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meppl good nightz 23:42
23:43 meppl left 23:45 gdonald joined 23:47 frooh left, frioux joined 23:48 gdonald left

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