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Set by mncharity on 25 March 2009.
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cspencer perl6: join() 00:11
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 59 (EVAL_16:38)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No compatible multi variant found: "&join"␤ at /tmp/e1oP3YAh7S line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::join called at (eval 122) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
cspencer perl6: join(' ') 00:12
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: RESULT«""» 00:13
..pugs: RESULT«" "»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::join called at (eval 123) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
cspencer perl6: my @a; @a.join 00:15
p6eval pugs, rakudo 370dd7: RESULT«""»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $sep in join or string at ./elf_h line 196.␤»
cspencer hmmm....should "join" and "my @a; @a.join" both return the empty string since they're both joining on an empty list? 00:17
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mikehh i did a make realclean and built against my previous parrot build and get the same failures 00:42
skids cspencer: isn't "my @a" not an empty list, but an unbound name? 00:43
mikehh ./perl6 t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.rakudo - ok 300 - # SKIP named args, Segmentation fault 00:45
bacek_ perl6: say defined my @a
p6eval elf 26023: OUTPUT«syntax error at (eval 123) line 3, at EOF␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs, rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«1␤»
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meppl good night 01:24
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wayland76 good night meppl 02:02
02:06 ron_ joined
ron_ rakudo: say 102030405.split(0).perl 02:07
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«["1", "2", "3", "4", "5"]␤»
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s1n frioux: ping 02:28
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s1n masek going by another alias lately? 02:29
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s1n std: class 5g5 { has $.yay; } 02:37
wayland76 Maybe he's been overtaken by real life
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed class␤Unable to parse class definition at /tmp/QUWl8HPkpN line 1:␤------> class 5g5 { has $.yay; }␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ trait␤FAILED 00:02 34m␤» 02:38
wayland76 It happened to me for a couple of weeks :)
s1n yeah it happens
classes can't start with numbers?
wayland76 std: class g5g5 { has $.yay; }
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
s1n guess not
wayland76 I guess not
identifiers (whether classes or otherwise) traditionally have restrictions on their first characters 02:39
Lets try this:
s1n i wasn't aware the same rule applied to classes/roles/methods/etc
lucs s1n: masek or masak? 02:40
wayland76 std: $55fff
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Can't understand next input--giving up at /tmp/jqtNyRwHft line 0:␤------> ␤ expecting prefix or noun␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
s1n lucs: is there a difference?
wayland76 std: $fff
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $fff is not predeclared at /tmp/5ldosc3dvq line 1:␤------> $fff␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
wayland76 std: my($fff);
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $fff is not predeclared at /tmp/q3LxAXjYqF line 1:␤------> my($fff);␤Undeclared routine:␤ my used at 1 ␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
s1n lucs: or did i just mispell his name?
std: my $fff
wayland76 std: my($fff) = "hi";
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
std 26023: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $fff is not predeclared at /tmp/EaJ7s3Oeg5 line 1:␤------> my($fff) = "hi";␤Undeclared routine:␤ my used at 1 ␤ok 00:04 35m␤»
lucs s1n: I've seen masak, but not the other...
wayland76 std: my $fff = "hi";
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤» 02:41
s1n std: my ($fff) = ("hi")
wayland76 std: my $66fff = "hi";
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 36m␤»
std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 38m␤»
s1n huh?
std: my $6t;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/VYAdxZRwYh line 1:␤------> my $6t;␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ shape definition␤ standard
..stopper␤ statement modifier loop...
s1n std: my $66ff;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Can't understand next input--giving up at /tmp/d8aFqvLZxl line 1:␤------> my $66ff;␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or noun␤ whitespace␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of $66 (from line 1) at /tmp/d8aFqvLZxl line 1:␤------>
.....
wayland76 std: my $66fff;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Can't understand next input--giving up at /tmp/w9W41s69aN line 1:␤------> my $66fff;␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or noun␤ whitespace␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of $66 (from line 1) at /tmp/w9W41s69aN line 1:␤------>
..[32...
s1n std: my $66ff = "this is wrong" 02:42
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 38m␤»
s1n uhoh
wayland76 hahaha :)
Did we find a STD bug?
s1n pokes TimToady
wayland76 TimToady: ping!
s1n std: class 66ff { has $.poo }; 02:43
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed class␤Unable to parse class definition at /tmp/iEJ1sgUtjM line 1:␤------> class 66ff { has $.poo };␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ trait␤FAILED 00:02 34m␤»
s1n std: class foo { has $.66ff }
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed class␤Unable to parse class definition␤Malformed has at /tmp/HoYOnfsuNZ line 1:␤------> class foo { has $.66ff }␤ expecting special_variable__S_185DollarDot␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
s1n std: class foo { has $.66ff = "bzzzt" } 02:44
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed class␤Unable to parse class definition␤Malformed has at /tmp/Pa5j8emOnq line 1:␤------> class foo { has $.66ff = "bzzzt" }␤ expecting special_variable__S_185DollarDot␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
s1n hmm odd bug
wayland76 Anyway, it looks like identifiers can't begin with a non-letter
std: my $6 6fff = "hi";
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/ljVYj6l0YI line 1:␤------> my $6 6fff = "hi";␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤ terminator␤ trait␤FAILED 00:02
..35m␤»
s1n and non-twigil of any kind (such as .)
std: my $66\ ff = "hi"
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 38m␤» 02:45
s1n heh
wayland76 Now that has obfus potential :)
rakudo: $\ = "hi";
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 1, near "$\\ = \"hi\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
s1n std: my $\ 6\ 6\ f\ f = "hi" 02:46
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed my␤Obsolete use of $\ variable; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's :ors attribute instead at /tmp/jsrF52imeh line 1:␤------> my $\ 6\ 6\ f\ f = "hi"␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter std: my $a66\ ff = "hi"; say $a66ff
s1n std: $6\ 6 = "hi"
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $a66ff is not predeclared at /tmp/0z3CuNlfpg line 1:␤------> my $a66\ ff = "hi"; say $a66ff␤ok 00:04 38m␤»
std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/86HcMvDYhv line 1:␤------> $6\ 6 = "hi"␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ standard stopper␤ statement modifier
..loop␤ terminator␤ unspa...
s1n diakopter: nice one
wayland76 rakudo: $.\ = "hi";
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 1, near "$.\\ = \"hi\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
wayland76 rakudo: $^\ = "hi"; 02:47
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 1, near "$^\\ = \"hi\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
wayland76 Oh well :)
s1n rakudo: my $66ff = "hi"; say $66ff
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 1, near "$66ff = \"h"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
s1n heh
rakudo is more correct??
diakopter how's that 02:48
s1n diakopter: watch
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s1n std: my $66ff = "wrong"; 02:49
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 38m␤»
s1n rakudo: my $66ff = "wrong"
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 1, near "$66ff = \"w"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
diakopter std: my $66ff = "wrong"; say $66ff
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error at /tmp/2g9Z14ik5z line 0:␤------> ␤ expecting prefix or noun␤FAILED 00:04 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $66ff = "wrong"; say 1
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 38m␤»
s1n something goofy with that declaration
usage becomes an error and only works if i assign it something 02:50
diakopter std: my $1; 02:52
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter std: my $01;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter std: my $$01;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter std: my $$$01;
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter hm 02:53
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s1n rakudo: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; Blah.bar 02:58
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«meh␤»
s1n hmm, i must be doing something wrong then
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diakopter std: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; Blah.bar 03:09
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ bar used at 1 ␤ok 00:04 35m␤»
diakopter std: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; (Blah $a = 3).bar 03:10
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/65G5IHSoQs line 1:␤------> Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; (Blah $a = 3).bar␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤
..terminator␤FAILED...
diakopter std: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; (my Blah $a = 3).bar
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ bar used at 1 ␤ok 00:04 36m␤»
diakopter std: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; (my Blah $a).bar
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ bar used at 1 ␤ok 00:04 36m␤»
diakopter std: class Foo { method bar { say "foobar" }; method baz { bar; }}; class Blah is Foo { method bar { say "meh" } }; (my Blah $a).bar()
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ bar used at 1 ␤ok 00:04 36m␤» 03:11
s1n wierd
03:12 kst left, kst joined
wayland76 Or weird even :) 03:23
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mikehh I am also getting something weird - I rebuild rakudp on parror r37816 ran make t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t it failed after ok 300 04:35
I then ran ./perl6 t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.rakudo and it passed - ran all the tests 04:36
I reran make t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t it failed - I reran ./perl6 t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.rakudo it had a Segmentation fault 04:38
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mikehh ok I am now passing all tests on parrot r37816 - perl Configure.pl --test PASS, make smoke PASS, make fulltest PASS 05:40
stitchup :) 05:41
mikehh on Ubuntu Intrepid Amd64
stitchup Goodnight #perl6
o/
05:41 stitchup left
mikehh however I am still failing t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t on rakudo built on it 05:43
05:44 parduncia joined 05:57 mtnviewmark joined
mtnviewmark std: *<=21 05:57
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤(Possible runaway string from line 1)␤Unable to parse quote-words subscript; couldn't find right angle quote at /tmp/tFVVF44TSE line 0:␤------> ␤FAILED 00:02 34m␤»
mtnviewmark std: { $_ <= 21 } 05:58
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
mtnviewmark std: * <= 21
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
mtnviewmark perl6: say 1 | 2
p6eval elf 26023: OUTPUT«3␤»
..rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb5fce930>␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«any(VInt 1,VInt 2)␤»
mtnviewmark perl6: say 3 | undef 05:59
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb5fea188>␤»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $b in bitwise or (|) at ./elf_h line 5775.␤3␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«any(VUndef,VInt 3)␤»
mtnviewmark perl6: $a = 3 | undef | 5; say $a < 10
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$a' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤» 06:00
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected " ="␤ expecting "::"␤ Variable "$a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤ at /tmp/C7kmlqYbUg line 1, column 3␤»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::prefix__124 called at (eval 127) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
mtnviewmark perl6: say (3 & undef & 5) < 10
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«all(VBool True)␤»
..rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Junction<0xb5fc5c78>␤»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«No viable candidate for call to multimethod infix__38(#,$,#) at (eval 125) line 3␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
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mtnviewmark perl6: say 1|11 + 5 06:07
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb60a74f8>␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«any(VInt 1,VInt 16)␤»
..elf 26023: OUTPUT«17␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = 1|11 + 5; $b = ($a < 10) ? $a : 'moo'; say $b 06:08
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "? $a : 'mo"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
mtnviewmark heh
rakudo: my $a = 1|11 + 5; $b = ($a < 10) ?? $a !! 'moo'; say $b
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$b' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = 1|11 + 5; my $b = ($a < 10) ?? $a !! 'moo'; say $b 06:09
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb6032480>␤»
wayland76 I shun that sort of junk (junk-shun, get it? :) )
mtnviewmark rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { pred($v) ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = 1|11 + 5; my $b = st($a, * < 10); say $b 06:10
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Non-Callable argument for pred in call to st␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15621 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
mtnviewmark oy! :-O
rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { pred($v) ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = 1|11 + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb69dfdf8>␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { pred($v) ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = 1|11 + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl() 06:11
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(1, undef)␤»
06:11 finanalyst joined
mtnviewmark 1? not 6? 06:11
rakudo say (1|11 + 5).perl()
rakudo: say (1|11 + 5).perl() 06:12
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(1, 16)␤»
mtnviewmark oy
rakudo: say ((1|11) + 5).perl()
finanalyst its a junction
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(6, 16)␤»
mtnviewmark right - just a operator precedence error on my part -- consider the irony!
rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { pred($v) ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl() 06:13
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(6, undef)␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = ($a < 10) ?? $a !! 'moo'; say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(6, 16)␤»
mikehh I went back to my rakudo directory at build 7af829f did a make realclean and built against parrot r37816
mtnviewmark ah - Junctions are an area where you wrap a sub-expression as a subroutine --- and bang! you get different results! 06:14
though it is understandable....
mikehh make t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t passes 06:15
i then did a make realclean, git pull (370dd76), make, make spectest_update, make t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.t - fails 06:16
so does ./perl6 t/spec/S29-conversions/ord_and_chr.rakudo - Segmentation fault 06:18
so at this stage all I can conclude is that the falult lies between 7af829f and 370dd76 06:19
the only thing I can possibly attribute it to (from the git pull) src/setting/Match.pm | 23 +++++++++++++++-------- 06:25
all the other changes were doc changes and README 06:26
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finanalyst mtnviewmark: i think you are getting an auto threading result because of the callback to pred 06:28
rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { my $z=pred($v);say $z.perl;$z ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::False␤any(6, undef)␤»
mtnviewmark yup - I understand it - but it may be a pitfall for some
I actually wanted auto-threading in this case 06:29
finanalyst rakudo: my sub st(junction $v, &pred) { my $z=pred($v);say $z.perl;$z ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near "st(junctio"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
mtnviewmark just that I was mentally in-lining the sub the first time --- and of course it doesn't thread the way I wanted when in-lined 06:30
finanalyst rakudo: my sub st(Junction $v, &pred) { my $z=pred($v);say $z.perl;$z ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(Bool::True, Bool::False)␤any(6, 16)␤»
mtnviewmark now, if my suggestion to never accumulated undef back into Junctions from auto-threaded results is accepted... then we have an easy solution to the "black jack" conundrum on the mailing list 06:31
...but not if you inline it!
diakopter heh 06:37
mtnviewmark actually - Junctions will show up other oddities: like: 06:39
rakudo: my $a = 3|5; say $a < $a;
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb6092908>␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = 3|5; say ($a < $a).perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(any(Bool::False, Bool::True), any(Bool::False))␤»
mtnviewmark vs. 06:40
rakudo: my sub lessthan($x, $y) { return $x < $y; }; my $a = 3|5; say lessthan($a, $a).perl() 06:41
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(any(Bool::False, Bool::True), any(Bool::False))␤»
mtnviewmark oh
hmmmmmmmm.,
finanalyst mtnviewmark: you have two code blocks in previous example
the subroutine, and the pred block
here you only have one 06:42
mtnviewmark rakudo: my sub lessthan($x) { return $x < $x; }; my $a = 3|5; say lessthan($a).perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False)␤»
mtnviewmark this is what I meant
again - I understand what is going on - it is just that within an expression, if a given junction is mentioned twice, people might be expecting that "selected" values will only be used against the same 'selected' value 06:44
finanalyst u r not getting all combinations of a junction
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mtnviewmark right - I realize 06:44
consider 06:45
finanalyst rakudo: my sub lessthan(Junction $x) { return $x < $x; }; my $a = 3|5; say lessthan($a).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(any(Bool::False, Bool::True), any(Bool::False))␤»
mtnviewmark in most cases, users should not be aware that they are dealing with a Junction
so
you write something liek this: 06:46
finanalyst in order to get auto-threading, the default type of a subroutine is Object, which excludes a junction
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = 3|5; $b = $a < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$b' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
mtnviewmark rakudo: my $a = 3|5; my $b = $a < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; say $b.perl()
06:47 kst left
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«"cat"␤» 06:47
mtnviewmark whereas:
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mtnviewmark rakduo: my sub choose($x) { return $x < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; }; my $a = 3|5; my $b = choose($a); say $b.perl() 06:47
rakudo: my sub choose($x) { return $x < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; }; my $a = 3|5; my $b = choose($a); say $b.perl() 06:48
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any("cat", "dog")␤»
mtnviewmark I bet the user expected this output in the first statement
where the expression wasn't wrapped in a sub 06:49
I think the problem stems from the interaction of comparisons and junctions -- which isn't always what one wants 06:50
rakudo: my $a = 3|4; my $b = $a < 4; say $b.perl()
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(Bool::True, Bool::False)␤»
finanalyst possibly, but junctions are weird and useful
mtnviewmark perhaps, the problem here is that ??!! isn't autothreading
moritz_ it's not a problem 06:51
finanalyst u have focussed here on any junctions
moritz_ nothing in boolean context autothreads
if we change that, we open a whole can of worms
mtnviewmark oh - I didin't mean "problem - needs to be changed" -- I meant "problem - causing problems for how users will likely think" 06:52
moritz_ I guess whatever we do, junctions will behave unexpectedly in some cases
mtnviewmark usually, you think you can in-line a simple function, or wrap up a complex expression into a sub -- and that makes no difference to the program
06:53 nacho left
mtnviewmark but with junctions around, it might 06:53
moritz_ blocks are intended for simple functions, and they default to no autothreading 06:56
mtnviewmark well - one might make the expression into a function because one needs it in multiple places... eh?
since functions can return Junctions to callers who don't suspect it.... 06:57
finanalyst rakudo: my sub st(Any $v, &pred) { my $z=pred($v);say $z.perl;$z ?? $v !! undef; }; my $a = (1|11) + 5; my $b = st($a, {$_ < 10}); say $b.perl
06:57 orafu left
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::False␤any(6, undef)␤» 06:57
06:57 OuLouFu joined
diakopter s/circumfix/outfix/g 06:57
finanalyst moritz_: in the last code line of mine, is the block 'pred' autothreading? 06:58
mtnviewmark the caller can get a value, and then by choice of how they structure their code can get different results - whereas the "expression" or "subroutine" choice is usually non-semantic
finanalyst mtnviewmark: by including junctions, perl6 is making a semantic difference, I think 06:59
moritz_ finanalyst: seems like not
mtnviewmark my $a = something(...); $b = $a < 10 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; return $b 07:00
so here's the point.... the code I just wrote --- usually you can choose to make that middle statement into a function call as this:
mikehh moritz_: hi did you see my comments on that test
mtnviewmark my $a = something(...); $b = pick_cat_or_dog($a); return $b
moritz_ mikehh: I did 07:01
mtnviewmark but if something() returns a junction, then this choice makes a major difference.....
... yet the writer of this code isn't even aware that something() might return a junction
(unless we auto-thread the continuations from returns.... :-) ) 07:02
moritz_ the whole point of autothreading is that not all code needs to be aware of junctions
mtnviewmark right - these two functions don't look like they need to be aware of Junctions - only they author has to be
because pick_cat_or_dog() vs. $a < 10 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog' --- will do different things if something() returns a junction 07:03
( where sub pick_cat_or_dog($x) { return $x < 10 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; } ... of course ) 07:04
finanalyst rakudo: my sub choose($x) { return $x < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; }; my $a = 3|5; say choose($a).perl; say ($a<4).perl 07:05
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any("cat", "dog")␤any(Bool::True, Bool::False)␤»
mtnviewmark Basically, it means I cannot write code ignorant of Junctions ever....
or I'll have to protect myself by making sure every value I get returned from a sub is passed to a sub, and not an expression with boolean context
finanalyst mtnviewmark: not quite getting your argument. In last code fragment, both subroutine and < work produce consistent results, namely a junction. 07:06
mtnviewmark no, the code where the ??!! operates direction on the junction doesn't produce a junction 07:07
finanalyst rakudo: my sub choose($x) { return $x < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; }; my $a = 3|5; say ?(choose($a)); say ?($a<4)
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
finanalyst here boolean context on both produces the same result 07:08
:)
mtnviewmark uhm
finanalyst it is the boolean context of ?(), or ??!!, that is different
mtnviewmark rakudo: my sub choose($x) { return $x < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog'; }; my $a = 3|5; say choose($a).perl(); say ($a < 4 ?? 'cat' !! 'dog').perl() 07:09
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any("cat", "dog")␤"cat"␤»
mtnviewmark there - see - the outputs are different
finanalyst but different contexts have different results on containers
u are using different contexts
mtnviewmark but the programmer thinks: "all I did was put a common expression into a sub...."
finanalyst 1st say imposes string context on result, 2nd say imposes boolean context 07:10
mtnviewmark (or if they started with the sub) "all I did was in-line a simple one-expression sub..."
no - I don't think so.... the results are all in string context
moritz_ the idea of a programming language that doesn't need an FAQ is an illusion, I fear
finanalyst what the programer thinks and what he does are not always the same 07:11
rakudo: my $a='hi there'; say ?($a); say $a 07:12
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«1␤hi there␤»
mtnviewmark of course... BUT --- it is usually one of the major tenents of programming systems that wrapping or un-wrapping a subroutine around some code doesn't change the result
diakopter where's the FHBW (Frequently head-banged wall)
mtnviewmark oh - I'll go find it and bang it some more.... :-) 07:13
finanalyst as in parameters passed by value, passed by reference, etc
diakopter mtnviewmark: tenets? 07:14
mtnviewmark right - remember all the bizarness with calling conventions and expressions like foo($a[$i], $i)
in languages where foo() could modify $i, as seen in the outer scope?
07:14 agentzh left
mtnviewmark if foo is something like foo($v, $i) { $i = 3, return $v; } 07:15
there are calling conventions where $v will be $a[3]!
but those things have long fallen by the wayside as producing semantics that are too hard to work with
07:15 nihiliad left
mtnviewmark one of the reasons is that wrapping or un-wrapping such subroutines yields very odd results 07:16
er, yes tenets
oooo - late! 07:18
must sleep
laters
07:18 mtnviewmark left
diakopter std: my $a=1; $a[$a].$a 07:18
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ($a)$a[$a].$a 07:19
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/oqljiVSkae line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ($a)$a[$a].$a␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ standard stopper␤
..statement modifier loop␤ t...
diakopter std: my $a=1; $a[$a].$a($a)($a)
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
diakopter 's mind starts to mushify 07:20
std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].++$a(++$a)($a++) 07:21
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/5RGNv4BMVO line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].++$a(++$a)($a++)␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤
..standard stopper␤ statement mo...
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a)($a++) 07:22
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[--$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)--
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤"--" and "]" are not associative at /tmp/mxyGmFmiI9 line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ++$a[--$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)--␤ expecting any of:␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
07:24 bacek_ left
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)-- 07:24
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤"++" and ")" are not associative at /tmp/asCRt8AEgM line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)--␤ expecting any of:␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤"++" and ")" are not associative at /tmp/tmkUv9YjPn line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a--)(--$a++)␤ expecting any of:␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a)(--$a++) 07:25
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤"--" and ")" are not associative at /tmp/WvoOest51S line 1:␤------> my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a)(--$a++)␤ expecting any of:␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a)--($a++)
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++(++$a)----($a++)
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++--(++$a)----($a++)
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 38m␤»
diakopter starts to wonder
std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++----].$a++--(++$a)----($a++) 07:26
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter pugs: 2++
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 2␤ at /tmp/ihuhjqkIuk line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
diakopter rakduo: 2++
rakudo: 2++
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Unable to set lvalue on PAST::Val node␤current instr.: 'parrot;PAST;Val;lvalue' pc 566 (src/PAST/Node.pir:161)␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = 1; --$a++
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: RESULT«0»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = 1; --$a++; say $a 07:27
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«1␤»
diakopter pugs: my $a = 1; --$a++; say $a
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 0␤ at /tmp/95ZOWdPcJ1 line 1, column 12-18␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = 1; ++--$a++; say $a
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«2␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = 1; ++++++++++++++++$a; say $a 07:28
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«9␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a = 1; ++++++++++++++++$a----------------; say $a
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«8␤»
diakopter eh
oh 07:29
rakudo: my $a = 1; ++++++++++++++++$a------$a----------; say $a
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "$a--------"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
diakopter std: my $a = 1; ++++++++++++++++$a------$a----------; say $a
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤"++" and "--" are not associative at /tmp/HmzHYui6YU line 1:␤------> my $a = 1; ++++++++++++++++$a------$a----------; say $a␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED
..00:02 37m␤»
diakopter std: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++--(++$a)----($a++) 07:30
p6eval std 26023: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++--(++$a)----($a++)
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "(++$a)----"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
diakopter rakudo: my $a=1; ++$a[$a++].$a++--(++$a)($a++); say $a
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "(++$a)($a+"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
mikehh make test PASS make spectest - Failed 1/339 test programs. 0/10054 subtests failed. 07:34
07:37 agentzh joined
mikehh I coverted the test to a program without the use Test; just using if ststments and say - works fine 07:40
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masak good morning, butterflies. 08:30
lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
masak @messages
lambdabot literal said 15h 18m 32s ago: Implementation language? I thought Perl 6 was assumed :)
moritz_ good morning
I like that attitude :-)
masak moritz_: mornin'
literal: I think it might be a good candidate, but I'd need to see a more precise list of desired features first :) 08:31
actually, given the state of Rakudo, it'd take pretty special requirements to choose something else. 08:33
still, sometimes it's quite liberating to prototype things in Moose and then port to Perl 6, for example. 08:34
Matt-W Morning 08:38
08:40 kane_ joined
masak Matt-W: a very fine morning to you, sir. 08:41
wayland76 Hi Matt-W
08:42 wayland76 left
szabgab rakudo: my $x; $x//=42; say $x; 08:45
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«42␤»
bacek good evening
moritz_ rakudo: my $x //= 42; say $x.perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«undef␤»
masak heh.
bug.
moritz_ masak: there's a job for you :-)
masak -me does his job
masak does his job 08:46
moritz_ I found that over the weekend, but I think I forgot to report it
anyway, it has been rather productive in terms of rakudo and test suite
Matt-W is back at work this week :(
masak moritz_: I noticed. :) 08:47
moritz_++
moritz_ I made a pass through the test suite, and looked at nearlly all #?rakudo skip's
masak Matt-W: was your last week productive? anything new to look at?
Matt-W masak: no not particularly
masak moritz_: wow.
Matt-W: feels a bit like my past week. :/
Matt-W masak: I had a lot of other things to attend to unfortunately
masak: there are some new tests, but not really any new functionality 08:48
Still, more complete test coverage of the existing stuff is welcome
moritz_ unfortunately I didn't get around to write a new tidings post
Matt-W really needs enums to work properly
masak moritz_: please do! I have no idea what happened since last time. :)
moritz_ masak: neither do I :-) 08:49
masak :P
moritz_ but there's my mail reader, and git log in various repos
it's nearly 11am here, and I'm still alone in the office 08:53
masak sounds like a case of the Mondays. 08:54
bacek arrived today at work at 8:45... 08:56
moritz_ masak: Monday, DST switch, one of my cow-orkers on a conference, @other_reasons probably 09:00
masak moritz_: oh, you went DST too? 09:01
moritz_ masak: yes
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finanalyst rakudo: my $a=1|11|13;sub e(Junction $j){my @states;->Any $x { @states.push($x); say 'in pointy block: '~ @states.perl }($j); say 'end of sub:' ~ @states.perl; return @states }; say e($a).perl 09:07
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«in pointy block: [1]␤in pointy block: [1, 11]␤in pointy block: [1, 11, 13]␤any(1)␤»
finanalyst moritz_: a development of your suggestion on eigenstates
moritz_: but code not working as expected. why is say in sub e not working? 09:08
moritz_ rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { @a.push($p) }; $s($x); @a} say e(2|3).perl 09:10
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "say e(2|3)"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { @a.push($p) }; $s($x); @a}; say e(2|3).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(1, 2)␤»
moritz_ p5ism--
I don't know why that doesn't work
bacek rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say @a.perl; @a}; say e(2|3).perl 09:11
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(1, 2)␤»
finanalyst rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say @a.perl; @a}; say e(2|3|4|5).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«any(1, 2, 3, 4)␤»
bacek rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { say @a.perl; @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say @a.perl; @a}; say e(2|3).perl 09:12
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[]␤[2]␤any(1, 2)␤»
bacek rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { say @a.perl; @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say @a.perl; \@a}; say e(2|3).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[]␤[2]␤any(1, 2)␤»
bacek rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = -> Any $p { say @a.perl; @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say "ret " ~ @a.perl; \@a}; say e(2|3).perl 09:13
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[]␤[2]␤any(1, 2)␤»
bacek wow...
rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my $s = sub(Any $p) { say @a.perl; @a.push($p) }; $s($x); say "ret " ~ @a.perl; \@a}; say e(2|3).perl
finanalyst like i said the say inside the sub is not being processed
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[]␤[2]␤ret [2, 3]␤[2, 3]␤»
bacek Looks like autothreading in junctions throws .CONTROL_RETURN 09:14
moritz_ rakudo: my @a; sub p($x){@a.push: $x}; sub e(Object $x) { @a = (); p($x); @a }; say e(2|3).perl 09:16
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3]␤»
moritz_ there you go
rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p($x); @a }; say e(2|3).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3]␤» 09:17
moritz_ if it doesn't work with blocks, use subs :-)
rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p($x); @a }; say e(2 ^ 3 ^ 7).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 7]␤»
finanalyst rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p($x); @a }; say e(2 & 3 & 7 & 1).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 7, 1]␤» 09:18
bacek rakudo: sub e(Object $x) { my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p($x); @a }; say e(2 ^ 3 | 7 & 9).perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 7, 9]␤»
bacek bloody hackers. You just broke public contract of Junctions :) 09:19
moritz_ puts on his black hat
09:20 OuLouFu left
masak junctions _will_ be abused, period. 09:20
the only thing we can do is make people realize, in as kind a manner as possible, that they're using junctions for things that they weren't really made for. 09:21
bacek rakudo: class Junction is also { method e{ my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p(self); @a }; say (2 ^ 3 | 7 & 9).e.perl 09:22
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 1, near ""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
bacek rakudo: class Junction is also { method e{ my @a; my sub p($x) { @a.push($x) }; p(self); @a }; }; say (2 ^ 3 | 7 & 9).e.perl
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 7, 9]␤»
bacek perl6 allows you to shoot your feet with nuclear blast :) 09:23
moritz_ I think it's kinda pointless to remove .eigenstates for philosophical if it an be obtained (inefficiently) with a one-liner
bacek moritz_: it's @Larry's call 09:24
masak sending signals is important too.
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finanalyst junctions are cool, junctions are new; make junctions a tool; and devils will brew 09:25
masak if it's private, there'll be a farily natural stigma against pulling the data out by force.
moritz_ masak: as long as we have an FAQ entry somewhere on why it's not publicly available to which I can point the anticipated hordes of perlmonks that's fine 09:26
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masak moritz_: that can be arranged, I'm sure. 09:27
finanalyst if junctions are to be restricted to any/all comparisons in the core, surely it will be ok to write modules that extend the functionality 09:28
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szabgab using perl6.vim is now complaining about missing syntax/pir.vim 09:30
finanalyst i was thinking about a module junctions::extension01 with list eigenstates, and grep eigenstates methods to allow for experimentation
szabgab any idea why ?
I mean perl6.vim in pugs/util/perl6.vim 09:31
moritz_ maybe literal++ added inline PIR hilighitng?
syn include @p6PIR syntax/pir.vim
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szabgab yeah I saw that line but no pir.vim here 09:32
moritz_ szabgab: in a parrot checkout, you can cd editor; make; cp pir.vim ~/.vim/syntax/
szabgab yeah, thanks, that worked 09:34
Matt-W oooh nice
literal++
szabgab its all because Padre generates 40-70% CPU load when editing plain .txt files 8-() so before I fix that I had to switch to vi :-) 09:35
strangely it is ok when editing perl 5 perl 6 code 09:36
Matt-W ewird 09:39
szabgab rakudo: multi sub f($x, %b?) {}; multi sub f(%b?) {}; f(2) 09:44
p6eval rakudo 370dd7: OUTPUT«Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'f'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(Any $x, Any %b?)␤:(Any %b?)␤␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 76 (EVAL_16:44)␤»
szabgab why is that Ambigous ? 09:45
moritz_ szabgab: because sigil-implied types aren't considered in mmd yet
szabgab not specced or not implemented yet ?
or incorrect use ?
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moritz_ not implemented yet 09:46
szabgab so it will work at one point right?
moritz_ yes
one point = when jnthn implements it :-) 09:47
Matt-W Or somebody else 09:48
It could be somebody else
moritz_ in theory, yes
in pratice jnthn is Unchallanged King of Rakudo Multi Dispatch :-) 09:49
Matt-W Yes
Although that's a dangerous situation 09:50
bacek smells big "bus factor" here :)
moritz_ but one that you can't avoid when you have only two core contributers
s/core/regular core/ 09:51
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Matt-W aye 10:14
and I don't have a clue about how rakudo works inside really
moritz_ maybe I have a clue, but surely nothing more :/ 10:15
masak I think I had one, but things have changed a lot since then. 10:20
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Matt-W I think the starting point would have to be learning how PCT works 10:38
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pugs_svn r26024 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] make PIR highlighting optional 10:40
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ruoso Hello! 10:53
wayland76 Hi :) 10:54
literal hi
ruoso It has been a long weekend 10:55
wayland76 Does that mean that you got an extra day off, or that the individual days felt longer? 10:56
ruoso heh... I guess just the days the felt longr... 10:57
literal he slowed down time 10:59
wayland76 Don't you have to be going pretty fast (relatively ;) ) to do that? 11:00
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Matt-W no actually he'd have to be going ocnsiderably slower to experience more of the weekend than we did 11:42
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wayland76 No, faster. "As you are approaching 100% of the speed of light your time slows more and more..." -- yes? 11:48
ruoso wayland76, actually... I think it is the opposite
I mean, relative to the people not at that speed
wayland76 Hmm, maybe you're right. So *we* have to be going faster, then :) 11:49
Matt-W if you go faster, you experience less time than the people going slower 11:50
hence why you could get on a starship and go to another star at 99% of the speed of light, and still be alive when you arrived while everyone you knew on earth has died of old age
masak literal: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-03-30#i_1025107 11:51
wayland76 I'll try to remember that :).
literal masak: yeah, saw that 11:52
ruoso one thing I never understood about relativity is how to measure the speed of the light... If we measure it based on our timing, wouldn't it look much slower than it actually is? 11:53
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masak literal: good. I think Perl 6 is fine, if for no other reason than that I like when people use the language. :) 11:55
that said, there are some things that are still _much_ easier to do with, say, Perl 5.
literal yeah 11:56
wayland76 ruoso: Isn't the speed of light constant? Or are you wondering how to measure that constant? 11:58
masak here we go...
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ruoso well... maybe I only ask that question becacuse I'm a social scientist... instead of a phisicyst 11:59
;)
wikipedia tells me speed of light is an axiomatic constant...
I, as an anthropologist, was expecting the relativity theory to be more relativist ;)
masak ruoso: why not measure the time elapsed between a light source and a sensor which is stationary relative to the light source? if the distance is known, the speed of light can be approximated from that. 12:00
ruoso but, if the the light travels at the speed of light, we would need to think from both the perspective of the observer 12:02
and the perspective of the light itself
masak 'course, this should preferably be done in a vaacum.
ruoso: that's an interesting comment. I guess strange things happen when you plug c into some of the equations. 12:03
having any rest mass is out of the question, for example. 12:04
ruoso for instance... if the light takes 8 minutes (from our perspective) to get from the sun to earth
how long does it take from the perspective of the light itself?
wayland76 I'm not sure what I am; computer scientist maybe? Or maybe just lazy :)
masak ruoso: if I'm not mistaken (and I might well be), time dilation would make the trip effectively instantaneous. 12:05
...from the perspective of the photon.
ruoso but that would have interesting astronomical consequences 12:06
masak why?
because the light is fresh on arrival? :)
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wayland76 www.physlink.com/Education/askexperts/ae283.cfm 12:07
The second answer has a graph which answers some of these questions 12:08
masak is right
Matt-W because light, moving at the speed of light, experiences complete time dilation
time never passes for a photo
photon*
wayland76 Hmm. So photons never experience time 12:09
I wonder if that means that photons live in eternity?
Or if beings made of light can't possibly exist :)
Or something :)
masak photons are not compatible with time. 12:10
wayland76 ...and if time passes for a photo, they call it a "movie" :) 12:11
masak or an old photo. 12:12
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wayland76 It depends whether time passes in the photo or on the photo 12:13
Sort of like the contents of a file vs. it's filesystem data :)
moritz_ photons are weird. How can a thing have no rest mass but still a spin? 12:14
wayland76 I never got far enough into quantum physics to understand spin, colour, flavour, and peppermint :) 12:15
ruoso but if, for instance, the image we get into a telescope is the result of interacting with that photons 12:16
masak moritz_: I feel the whole spin concept is suspect.
moritz_ masak: aye. But it works :/
masak or at least not relatable to something really palpable.
it's like it just happens to be called 'spin', but it's really something else.
but IANAP. 12:17
moritz_ we know from experiment that electrons and photons have an intrinsic degree of freedom which happens to follow the same rules as an angular momentum
Matt-W I know enough about it to know that 'spin' is a terrible word 12:19
masak particle physics seems full of counterintuitive surprises.
Matt-W Should've called it 'woogle factor' or something 12:20
masak :D
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wayland76 Or the TLS (thing like spin) :) 12:21
Matt-W well it's not really like spin at all though is it
or maybe it is
wayland76 How about TLAM (thing like angular momentum) 12:22
Matt-W maybe it is helpful to think of spin half particles inhabiting a universe in which you have to rotate twice as far
wayland76 ?
Matt-W it *is* fun for confusing children with
masak Matt-W: you can confuse grown-ups with quantum mechanics too!
Matt-W true 12:23
but how many grown-ups these days listen?
Anyway, I prefer confusing my colleagues by explaining how something I just did in a million lines of C++ would be so much nicer in Perl 6 :) 12:24
wayland76 Me. I'm listening and I'm confused :) 12:25
masak ah, those million-line workarounds in C++...
Matt-W I don't think we're a representative cross-section of society in here 12:26
wayland76 (There's a saying in Sudan -- "If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation" :) )
Well, no :)
Matt-W Usually I don't feel like everyone in the room is smarter than me
wayland76 Hmm. Well, I thought I was the dumb one around here :)
(just a note for moritz_ -- it appears gluons and z-bosons also have spin but no mass) 12:27
moritz_ more weird stuff :(
wayland76 Oh, and neutrinos too :)
ruoso enjoys not being a phisicyst... people is already weird enough... ;) 12:28
moritz_ well, they sopposedly have mass
wayland76 It might help to think of spin as spin, but to think of mass as a deformation of space :)
Matt-W There's another theory floating around that the universe is a hologram of things taking place on its outer surface...
That one really makes my head hurt
wayland76 Oh, yes, I'm wrong about the neutrinos and z-bosons
but not gluons 12:29
moritz_ I never got deep into particle physics
wayland76 I enjoy not being a physicist too. I took the easy option.
moritz_: I'm deeper now that I've ever been before, thanks to Wikipedia over the last 5 minutes :) 12:30
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pmurias ruoso: hi 12:42
ruoso hi pmurias 12:57
pmurias ruoso: how should i describe my releationship to the SMOP project in the proposal? 12:58
ruoso you can say that you're a co-author
wayland76 Oh, I ws going to suggest "tempestuous" :)
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pugs_svn r26025 | wayland++ | S32/IO.pod: Changed "TCP" to "INET" 13:01
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pasteling "pmurias" at 78.8.156.39 pasted "GSoC application draft" (73 lines, 3.2K) at sial.org/pbot/35758 13:10
ruoso pmurias++ very well done draft 13:11
I have nothing to add or remov 13:12
finanalyst i would like to provide a GUI with a perl6 program, is there any "easy" solution? 13:15
ruoso finanalyst, I don't think there's much support yet 13:16
Matt-W not heard of anything
finanalyst there is some SDL in parrot, but I can never get it to work 13:17
also on the perl foundation site there is a proposal to link the TCL-Tk widgets to parrot, but there doesnt appear to be any update
ruoso finanalyst, well... if you can handle SMOP limitations, SMOP can already call p5 classes
so you could make a gtk2 app 13:18
finanalyst if p5 then what about perl-tk?
moritz_ pmurias: nice proposal; I'd just use full names ("Daniel Ruoso")
Matt-W pmurias: Haskell should have a capital letter 13:19
ruoso finanalyst, gtk2-perl is prettier ;)
finanalyst ruoso: i could never get it to work well :(
Matt-W hopes to be able to do GTK bindings for Perl 6 at some point using GObject introspection to generate most of it automagically
ruoso gtk2 or SMOP?
moritz_ pmurias: oh, and you should add a few lines why smop is important; not all mentors know about Perl 6 as well as we do
ruoso Matt-W, not generate... just use 13:20
Matt-W, Perl 6 supports representation polymorphism
no need to generate stubs
finanalyst ruoso: ok. where do i find out bout using SMOP?
ruoso finanalyst, well.. there's the wiki 13:21
and there's the code
finanalyst ruoso: just looked at perlfoundation's SMOP page. Not quite sure how to get started, viz., get a running version 13:23
ruoso first, get the source
it's inside pugs svn
finanalyst Would it be possible for you to edit the SMOP page on TPF wiki to point to the SMOP wiki? 13:24
www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop 13:25
ruoso that is the SMOP wiki
moritz_ that *is* the smop wiki :-)
finanalyst uh oh. embarrassment 13:26
moritz_ and it has a "smop hacking" link
finanalyst i saw all the links, but not read them all
ruoso runs to see if SMOP Hacking is still up-to-date 13:27
almost up-to-date
the dependencies are not 13:28
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Matt-W thinks about what bit of Form.pm to do next 13:28
So many tests to write...
finanalyst is cmake different from make? I have Ubuntu Linux. Do I need to get a different program? 13:29
ruoso we no longer use cmake
we use scons now
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finanalyst dependencies page is definitely out of date 13:30
ruoso just apt-get install scons, iirc
ruoso brb & 13:31
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ruoso finanalyst, if you have any problem building it, just ask me or pmurias 13:33
but you might be glad to know that SMOP is going through a major refactoring that should make building it easier...
finanalyst just using synaptic to set up the list of dependencies 13:34
ruoso finanalyst, if you happen to install anything not in the dependencies list, would you mind updating the SMOP Dependencies page? 13:38
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finanalyst ruoso: u there? 14:31
ruoso finanalyst, yes
finanalyst had to $work for a while 14:32
there seem to be a lot of haskell packages for Ubuntu, but I am not sure which I need for SMOP
moritz_ probably a ghc6 14:33
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finanalyst the SMOP dependencies page lists haskell-zlib, cabal-install, and Cabal 14:34
ruoso I have here installed (Debian lenny) ghc6, libghc6-http-dev, libghc6-network-dev, libghc6-parsec-dev, libghc6-utf8-string-dev
and yes, haskell-zlib, cabal-install and cabal in my /usr/local 14:35
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finanalyst where do the latter come from ? 14:36
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pmurias finanalyst: the cabal executable comes from cabal-install 14:39
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dalek kudo: 766b10d | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 339 files, 8039 passing, 0 failing
 14:46
finanalyst pmichaud: is that the first time > 8000 tests?
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masak finanalyst: according to the review URL, yes. 14:50
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finanalyst ruoso: in pugs/v6 there is mildew and smop, in which do i run make (or is it scons?) 14:53
ruoso finanalyst, you first need to run make in smop 14:54
once that's ready, you can use mildew
mildew: say "Hello, finanalyst!"
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Can't locate object method "13" via package "STD" at ../../src/perl6/STD.pm line 1525.␤»
ruoso p6eval?
finanalyst does scons replace make?
ruoso finanalyst, yes 14:55
not only make actually,
Matt-W oooh 8,039 tests passing
ruoso but the whole build system
ruoso lunch &
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pmurias finanalyst: the Makefiles runs scons 14:59
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pmichaud finanalyst: yes, first time over 8000 for Rakudo. 15:10
finanalyst +++++ 15:11
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moritz_ pmichaud: did you get around to fix the uniq block thing in PGE? 15:12
finanalyst on my ubuntu synaptic packing list, the only reference to cabal is with hugs. Is this different from ghc6?
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pmichaud moritz_: yes, I did. 15:22
I think I fixed it on Friday evening (maybe Thursday evening -- the days/nights are a blur) 15:23
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moritz_ ah great, I see that my stuff from Any-num.pm is already in there 15:25
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moritz_ time to remove the branch from github then 15:27
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finanalyst pmurias: not getting anywhere installing smop. how can i send u the error output 15:39
pmurias finanalyst: ok
finanalyst: you can nopaste it 15:40
finanalyst /pugs/v6/smop# make
cd m0ld;ghc --make Setup.lhs;./Setup configure --user ;./Setup build;cp dist/build/m0ld/m0ld ../m0ld_exe
[1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Setup.lhs, Setup.o )
Linking Setup ...
Configuring m0ld-0.0...
Preprocessing executables for m0ld-0.0... 15:41
Building m0ld-0.0...
scons -Q
gcc -o build/pcl_coro.os -c -O0 -g3 -D_REENTRANT -D_GNU_SOURCE -DDEBIAN -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -I/usr/local/include -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -I/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE -fPIC -Isrc -Iinclude -Ismop-base/include build/pcl_coro.c
build/pcl_coro.c:8:17: error: pcl.h: No such file or directory
moritz_ not paste it here!
finanalyst build/pcl_coro.c:16: error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before ‘coroutine_t’
sorry :(
moritz_ please use the nopaste link from the /topic
pasteling "finanalyst" at 193.110.4.137 pasted "using make in pugs/v6/smop" (24 lines, 1.6K) at sial.org/pbot/35762 15:44
pmurias finanalyst: get libpcl1-dev
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finanalyst pmurias: error now at p5interpreter. On the SMOP dependencies page, it says something about dh-make-perl. What is this? 15:53
moritz_ that's a script to build debian packages out of perl modules
pmurias finanalyst: could you nopaste the error? 15:54
pasteling "finanalyst" at 193.110.4.137 pasted "using make in pugs/v6/smop II" (20 lines, 2.7K) at sial.org/pbot/35763 15:55
ruoso finanalyst, apt-get isntall libperl-dev
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finanalyst ruoso: thanx make in smop completed correctly. I have a short file of all the steps I took to get there. I can nopaste it 16:02
but how do i use mildew?
ruoso finanalyst, would you mind putting it in the wiki?
finanalyst, now to use mildew, just go to ../mildew 16:03
perl mildew something.p6
you can see what mildew already supports in the t directory
finanalyst ruoso: you are using .p6 !!!!! I asked about this about a year ago and got a huge (-ve) response from some 16:05
pmurias -ve ?
ruoso finanalyst, er... being from the *nix world, extensions don't really mean much
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finanalyst :} 16:06
:)
masak I agree. I've become less and less appreciative of file endings. 16:08
they leak information that is not very often interesting, though an abstraction that might sometimes be useful to preserve. 16:09
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finanalyst tried to run mildew from another directory. It cant locate STD.pm How do I get it into INC? 16:13
ruoso finanalyst, have you checked out the entire pugs repo? 16:14
finanalyst yes and I have STD.pm
ruoso so get in that directory and run make
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ruoso ../../src/perl6 iirc 16:15
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finanalyst ruoso: bash: iirc: command not found. Tried running make. Cant find ./gimme5 16:18
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ruoso hmm 16:19
where's gimme5?
are you inside src/perl6? 16:20
is it up-to-date?
finanalyst, gimme5 is there...
finanalyst ruoso: something funny here. gimme5 is in directory. looking further
pmurias finanalyst: re another directory , it worked from v6/mildew? 16:21
finanalyst no problem is with STD.pm 16:22
pasteling "finanalyst" at 193.110.4.137 pasted "make in pugs/src/perl6" (12 lines, 684B) at sial.org/pbot/35764 16:24
ruoso weird
finanalyst ruoso: not sure what the problem is
ruoso try writing that line yourself 16:25
finanalyst tried changing to root
ruoso no no
that's not the problem
(unless you checked out as root
which might mean you have no x permission in the directory)
finanalyst thought it was permissions. yes checked out as root
ruoso hmm
finanalyst long time ago
ruoso what does ls -lad . tells you? 16:26
finanalyst ls -lad
drwxr-xr-x 4 richard richard 4096 2009-03-30 20:15 .
not permission!
ruoso ls -lad gimme5 16:27
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finanalyst pugs/src/perl6$ ls -lad gimme5 16:27
-rwxr-xr-x 1 richard richard 72130 2009-03-30 18:48 gimme
ruoso ./gimme5 STD.pm >STD.pm5
finanalyst found problem, i think. expecting perl to be in /usr/local/bin/perl 16:28
i have in /usr/bin
ruoso hmm
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finanalyst gimme5 expects perl to be in /usr/local/bin, not /usr/bin it says so in README 16:30
ruoso I wonder why it still does it... 16:31
is there anyone still using perl 5.8? 16:32
moritz_ gentoo
PerlJam lots of people still use 5.8 since 5.10 is still listed as a "testing release" or some such on cpan.org
ruoso is it? 16:33
moritz_ maybe just replace it with #/usr/bin/env perl5.10.0
PerlJam cpan.org/src/README.html
moritz_ that works on all platforms where 5.10.0 is in $PATH
PerlJam moritz_: good idea I think 16:34
ruoso indeed...
and someone send a bug report to [email@hidden.address] about that page
PerlJam ruoso: there's nothing wrong with that page. 16:35
ruoso perl 5.10 is not testing
PerlJam ruoso: what's wrong is that there hasn't been a 5.10.1 yet
ruoso for a long time already
(or maybe p5p uses a strange nomenclature for release status) 16:36
PerlJam ruoso: read the top of that page I linked to.
ruoso PerlJam, yeah... sorry... 16:37
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finanalyst lots of problems with perl assumed to being in /usr/local/bin so i added a link to /usr/bin 16:44
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finanalyst does mildew have a -e flag to run one-liners? 16:53
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[particle] what's wrong with #!/usr/bin/perl\nuse 5.010; 17:00
ruoso finanalyst, I'm not sure...
moritz_ [particle]: that it dies when the first perl in path is older than 5.10 17:01
pmurias_ finanalyst: it shouldn't be hard to add...
[particle] yeah, so? then it tells you your perl is too old. or do you not care about windows support? 17:02
moritz_ [particle]: windows doesn't honor the shebang line anyway, does it?
[particle] that's not easy to answer 17:03
literal @tell alester use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=42657&cid=67953
lambdabot Consider it noted.
[particle] perl on windows does
moritz_ yes, but at the point where perl reads it, it's too late to pick a different perl anyway
[particle] right
finanalyst the path to perl in pugs/src/perl6 make and gimme5 17:04
[particle] don't assume anything about 1 zillion users paths
moritz_ not so on linux, where it actually helps to write #!/usr/bin/env perl5.10 if the first perl in $PATH isn't new enough
[particle] just point to perl, and use 5.010;
finanalyst running mildew gives me: Undefined subroutine &main::Dump called at ../../src/perl6/viv line 161.
Can't call method "emit_m0ld" on an undefined value at ./mildew line 123.
[particle] the user can select the proper perl
finanalyst ruoso: bye got to go 17:05
17:05 finanalyst left
ruoso it sees TimToady successfully broke mildew ;) 17:06
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pugs_svn r26026 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] add note about where to find pir.vim 17:24
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pugs_svn r26027 | putter++ | [elf_h] EmitSimpleP5.pm: Fixed the '@p::x emits as $a_p::x not $p::a_x' bug. Tweaked 'is context', but it's still unusably (for std.pm) broken. 17:53
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pmurias ruoso: do you think we should have a copy of STD with a fixed revision? 18:30
ruoso pmurias, it's not that bad idea 18:35
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Meijito Hey, how delete from my @list = (1, 2, 3); 1? I tried: delete @list{"1"};, but it not works - "...Global symbol "%List" requires explicit package name at..." But, List are @List, not %List. :/ 18:44
ruoso Meijito, you seem to be using perl 5. This is not a perl 5 support channel.. Please ask that at #perl in freenode or at #perl-help at irc.perl.org 18:46
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ruoso pmurias, do you have any idea what's going on with the current STD? 19:04
pugs_svn r26028 | ruoso++ | [mildew] add a special hack for viv to stop complaining about ::Dump, but this didnt solve the problem; 19:07
pmurias sort of 19:09
working on getting quoting to work
pugs_svn r26029 | pmurias++ | [mildew] moved it more in the direction of working under current STD 19:10
ruoso hmm.. seems better 19:11
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ruoso I mean... "say 1" works... but none of the tests do 19:14
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pmurias ruoso: viv seems to return incorrect VAST for say "foo$ok" 19:15
ruoso hmm... 19:16
I think TimToady is in the middle of something in STD
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ruoso maybe restoring an old STD to inside mildew is a better ide 19:16
*idea
at least until he finishes whatever he's doing
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pmurias ruoso: we could try it 19:17
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rindolf Hi all. 19:26
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pmurias rindolf: hi 19:27
rindolf pmurias: sup?
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pmurias rindolf: i wrote my GSoC application recently 19:32
rindolf pmurias: ah. Good luck.
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darkwater Hello everyone 19:33
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moritz_ hi 20:16
literal hi
rindolf Hi moritz_
Hi literal
rindolf has been neglecting his CPAN modules lately.
ruoso is the gsoc web app up already 20:30
?
literal yes
ruoso do you have a url at hand? 20:32
moritz_ socghop.appspot.com/ 20:34
ruoso thanks moritz_ 20:35
ruoso .oO( wth does socghop mean? )
smtms ruoso, soc + ghop
ruoso and what does ghop mean? 20:37
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[particle] google highly open participation or somesuch 20:37
there's a secondary-school equivalent to soc 20:38
ruoso anyway, glad to see there are proposals there already... 20:42
pmichaud std: my $x //= 2; 20:43
p6eval std 26029: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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mikehh moritz_: still failing that stooopid test - all others pass 22:59
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wayland76 ruoso: ping! 23:51

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