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Set by mncharity on 25 March 2009.
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PhatEddy rt 64450, recently opened, is spam - if anyone is around to get rid of oit 01:34
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pmichaud deleted, thanks. 01:41
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eternaleye Hi, in Perl 6, how would one go about codifying in a regex "match any of 'a', 'b', or 'c', but match each at most once". Would this be possible without using { ... or fail } constructs, or not? If so, how would one go about checking the condition? 02:34
s/so/not/
literal m:P5/([abc])(?!\1)/ :P 02:36
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s1n literal is cheating :) 02:37
eternaleye Yeah, one sec while I nopaste what I have so far 02:38
dpaste.com/24049/
The place I'll put what I'm asking for is denoted by the #[ FIXME ] comment 02:39
s1n rakudo: class Foo { ... }; my Foo $f .= new; say "broken" if $f ~~ Does::Not::Exist
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«No exception handler and no message␤current instr.: 'return' pc 15520 (src/builtins/control.pir:39)␤» 02:40
eternaleye And different ones may occur, so for instance 'abc' would match, but 'abb'
would fail
s1n eternaleye: just out of curiousity, what are you working on there?
literal looks like a fronted to Portage, Gentoo's package system
eternaleye A use flag editor for Paludis, my preferred package manager.
An alternative for Portage 02:41
s1n a palidus conf parser
eternaleye Basically, flagedit for paludis
s1n ahh, okay
eternaleye hence 'flagpal'
s1n a long time gentoo user, since 0.8-pre
jnthn: think that error i uncovered needs _something_ to clarify 02:42
eternaleye Yeah, I started around 2.6.15 (can't remember the year, but I remeber the kernel XD) with Gentoo as my first linux install.
literal only recently switched from Gentoo 02:43
I think the kernel version was 2.5.30 or something when I started :)
eternaleye Nice.
s1n i don't remember the kernel version that i started, but i was around for the 2.4 - 2.6 switch, gcc 2.8 to 3.0 switch 02:44
i think 2002 was when i started
literal hm, probably closer to 2.5.70
s1n no, i was ~x86 then, it was definitely 2.4 branch 02:45
s1n just realized you were making a self reference
literal :)
pmichaud there's always / a[bc?|cb?]? | b[ac?|ca?]? | c[ab?|ba?]? / :-)
eternaleye Heh, I just realized I changed the name of the first grammer in the file but not where the other grammars reference it. Well, sed -i time!
literal I really like ebuilds
eternaleye pmichaud: Yes, but there are 5 options, and I'd rather not have a giant combinatorial mess 02:46
s1n pmichaud: i think you're missing some '?' there...
eternaleye Also, each one is several chars long 02:47
TimToady well, you don't really want to use a regex for the constraint. <?{ panic if %seen{$x}++ }> is more like it, but I don't know how well rakudo would support that yet. 02:48
lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
TimToady @messages
lambdabot moritz_ asked 3d 12h 51m 27s ago: S04: while something() -> { ... $^thing ... } # should the arrow be removed here?
TimToady @clear 02:49
lambdabot Messages cleared.
pmichaud maybe: / [ $<a>=[a] | $<b>=[b] | $<c>=[c] ]* / and then check afterwards that none of $<a>, $<b>, or $<c> are bigger than 1
TimToady # again, sigh
that's the other way, yes
and probably gives you the chance to give a good error message
eternaleye That's probably the best way. Thanks everybody! 02:50
TimToady but trying to enforce semantic constraints with syntactic checks is usually suboptimal
It's hard to get a parser to say much more than "Oops, didn't understand that." 02:51
eternaleye So maybe use {*} and check in the action?
TimToady if you want to prevent _alpha_alpha, sure, that'd be a good way 02:52
though you shouldn't really need the {*} for a check on the entire rule, since there's one implied on the whole rule anyway. but I don't think rakudo supports that yet 02:53
eternaleye Hm. I'll probably need to do a for @{ $<versionSpec> } and check for each versionSpec in the file. 02:54
Since there is one versionSpec per packageSpec, and there may be multiple packageSpecs
And I'd really only need {*} for the versionSpec token 02:55
pmichaud correct, rakudo (and PGE) still want explicit {*}.
eternaleye Although, if I wanted to use an embedded { some_function_that_checks_counts( SOMETHING ) or fail }; what should SOMETHING be? 03:03
pmichaud Rakudo doesn't support embedded p6 in regexes yet (coming soon)
eternaleye So that I could catch the error as the line is being processed, rather than afterwards by traversing $/
pmichaud that said, it'd still be based on $/, which would be the current (sub)match 03:04
eternaleye pmichaud: That's okay, I'm less concerned with actually _running_ this program ( Vim is enough to make it non-annoying ) than _writing_ it 03:05
And that makes sense, ( $/ being the submatch ), what I meant by "not traverse $/" was the $/ for TOP
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eternaleye So would this work if Rakudo supported embedding p6 in regexes? dpaste.com/24054/ 03:17
Ooh, just realized the brackets around the alternation need to be capturing parens. S05++ 03:26
TimToady not necessarily, if you just want to capture strings
eternaleye Nah, I want a hierarchial arrangement 03:27
Since I'm looping over the list of repeated matches to the quantified submatch 03:28
Er, I think
Or would foofoobar ~~ / $<var> = [foo|bar] / give $/ with $<var>[0,1,2] as ( 'foo', 'foo', 'bar' )? 03:30
Er, s/]/]*/
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eternaleye Yeah, empirical testing says I need () instead of [] 03:34
rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=(foo|bar)* /; say ~@( $<var> ) 03:35
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«foo foo bar␤»
eternaleye rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=[foo|bar[* /; say ~@( $<var> )
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Quantifier follows nothing in regex at offset 34, found ' '␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10552 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1323)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=[foo|bar]* /; say ~@( $<var> )
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
pmichaud I'm not certain if @(...) works yet. 03:37
rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=[foo|bar]* /; say $<var>.list.perl; 03:38
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«[Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast => "foofoobar",␤ text => "foofoobar",␤ from => 0,␤ to => 9,␤)]␤»
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eternaleye rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=(foo|bar)* /; say $<var>.list.perl; 03:47
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«[Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast => "foo",␤ text => "foo",␤ from => 0,␤ to => 3,␤), Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast => "foo",␤ text => "foo",␤ from =>
..3,␤...
eternaleye It does seem to work 03:48
rakudo: 'foofoobar' ~~ / $<var>=(foo|bar)* /; say ~@( $<var> )
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«foo foo bar␤»
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meppuru good night 04:19
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dalek kudo: 7dc65fd | pmichaud++ | build/Makefile.in:
Re-order Makefile targets into slightly more logical sense.
 04:20
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eternaleye Oh you have got to be kidding me. 04:44
I misread the Package Manager Spec. Repeat version suffixes ar not forbidden, eg =foo-bar/baz-0_alpha_alpha is permitted 04:45
Oh well, it was worth it anyway since I learned something
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szabgab rakudo: class Z { has $.x is rw; }; my $t = Z.new; $t->x(10) 07:23
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "->x(10)"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
szabgab rakudo: class Z { has $.x is rw; }; my $t = Z.new; $t.x(10)
sorry
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;Z;x' pc 177 (EVAL_20:67)␤»
szabgab is rw accessor generation not implemented yet ?
or am I using it incorrectly ? 07:24
literal rakudo: class Z { has $.x is rw; }; my $t = Z.new; $t.x = 10;
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: ( no output )
szabgab ah, thanks 07:25
literal don't know if that's correct, actually, was just trying it
seems to be, judging from S12 07:26
szabgab it gest the assignment
where do you see it in S12?
literal perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Attributes
the second test file there has a "$foo.bar = ..." test 07:27
szabgab oh I have forgotten to look at the test files, just looked at the spec 07:28
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masak morning, parrotcamels. 07:48
moritz_ oh hai 07:49
masak is looking at the GSoC proposals 07:52
literal how many are Perl 6-related? 07:53
masak nice list of proposals.
moritz_ indeed
masak literal: at least three that I can see right away.
moritz_ literal: four, in the broader sense 07:54
one is actually parrot
one is yours
one is a november-wiki
and one is smop
literal ok
masak right.
didn't include the parrot one in my count.
moritz_ I find that particularly interesting 07:55
use llvm's JIT in parrot
pugs_svn r26093 | masak++ | [u4x/README] s/psi/grok/g 07:56
r26093 | masak++ |
r26093 | masak++ | Turns out there's already a famous tool named 'psi' out there. On #perl6, we
r26093 | masak++ | settled on 'grok' instead.
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moritz_ I had a different idea, but maybe that's too late now 07:57
literal idea for what? a name?
moritz_ I thought 6d might be a good name
masak it's certainly suggestive.
moritz_ it stands for Perl 6 docs, but also for the number of dimensions in which the language tries to be orthogonal ;-)
masak 哈哈 07:58
moritz_ and when somebody wants to port it to Perl 5, there's an obvious name for it
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masak moritz_: it's not too late to change. if enough people '+1' the name '6d', we'll simply change it. 07:58
JIT decisions are the hallmark of the Perl 6 community. 07:59
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literal I like it, but I somehow find it off-putting because it starts with a digit (not a valid identifier!) :) 07:59
masak I had the same thought.
moritz_ literal: I think if you implement it, it's your decsion in the end 08:00
masak don't know how bad that is, though.
moritz_ that's a strength, because nobody else uses such names ;-)
for class names you'd have to spell it SixD or so
masak moritz_: well, there is some game which starts with a digit that always turns up first on the MacPorts module list... 08:01
moritz_ ;-)
masak ah, 2Pong and 4th.
moritz_ anyway, it's just an idea... feel free to pick it up or discard it
masak ditto. 08:02
moritz_ I like grok as as well
masak aye.
today I plan to give proto and Web.pm a bit of love. 08:09
moritz_ nice 08:10
I have to give my computer science students some love :(
not as exciting as Perl 6, but it gets paid
masak no details. :)
moritz_ (I have to prepare stuff, not work with them directly on Sunday ;-)
masak ah.
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moritz_ rakudo passes 8436 tests. Nice. 08:25
masak aye. as pmichaud noted, this is shaping up to be a productive month. 08:26
literal wow 08:36
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pugs_svn r26094 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] remove accidently commited file 09:46
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pugs_svn r26095 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] ported over Scalar 10:11
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jnthn oh hai 10:23
pmurias hi 10:25
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masak oh hai 10:40
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ihrd hi there 11:09
rakudo: for [1,2,3] Z ['a','b'] -> $a, $b { say $a, $b }
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p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1a␤2b␤» 11:09
ihrd this works without errors in last rakudo 11:10
is it right behavior?
moritz_ looks good to me
ihrd It is usefull for my propouse, but in previos version it is died with erorr about iteratior 11:11
moritz_ I think that zip should truncate to the length of the shorter list
ihrd rakudo: for [1,2,3] -> $a, $b { say $a, $b } 11:12
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«StopIteration␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 143 (EVAL_18:59)␤»
ihrd aha
masak :)
there it is :)
moritz_ it should throw an error, but maybe a more descriptive one ;-)
unless $b is optional, of course
ihrd yes
I will go to read Z specs, to be sure this is right behavior 11:13
masak rakudo: for 1, 2, 3 Z <a b>, undef xx 1000 -> $a, $b { say $a, $b }
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1a␤2b␤3Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
moritz_ either S32/containers, or S03
the zip() form should do the same as infix:<Z> 11:15
the rational behind it is that 1..* Z @array should work
ihrd you`r right 11:18
"By default the C<zip> function reads to the end of the shortest list,
but a short list may always be extended arbitrarily by putting C<*>
after the final value, which replicates the final value as many times
as necessary."
masak nice.
bet it's not implemented yet, though.
ihrd ups. this special <*> behavoir NIY
and it is change my dispatcher logic when it is implemented :( 11:19
masak one word: workaround. 11:20
and leave a RAKUDO comment. :)
ihrd and I will send rakudobug with hope some one implemented this soon 11:22
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szabgab rakudo: class A { method f() {say "A"}}; class B is A {method f() {say "B"; self.f()}}; my $x=A.new; $x.f; 11:29
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«A␤»
szabgab how can I call the same method in SUPER ?
I thought WALK should do that but AFAIK it is not yet implemented 11:30
any other way ?
masak szabgab: yes.
I saw it the other day.
don't remember exactly, but ruoso did it.
szabgab: found it. irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-04-02#i_1033479 11:36
szabgab thanks 11:37
masak np.
I need to memorize that one too. :) it's useful.
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod f() {say "A"}}; class B is A {submethod f() {say "B"; self.f()}}; my $x=A.new; $x.f; 11:38
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«A␤»
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod f() {say "A"}}; class B is A {submethod f() {say "B"; self.f()}}; my $x=B.new; $x.f;
masak infinite loop.
forgot to warn you about that.
that's actually the expected behaviour.
szabgab oh , infinite loops I can write alone :-)
masak indeed.
and this one will probably blow the stack, too. 11:39
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod f() {say "A"}}; class B is A {submethod f() {say "B"; self.f()}}; A.HOW;
oh, killed it :-) 11:40
I'll stand in the corner now for a while, sorry
masak it'll probably be back.
it's just a bit busy at the moment.
moritz_ why should that loop?
rakudo: say 2 11:41
masak moritz_: B.f calling itself?
moritz_ ah, right
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moritz_ on my machine such a thing says "maximum recursion depth exceeded" after a few moments 11:42
less than a second, actually
rakudo: say "alive"
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak \o/
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szabgab oh I am glad it is back 11:44
pugs_svn r26096 | moritz++ | [evalbot] saner CPU limit; remove kp6
moritz_ rakudo: sub f { f() }; f() 11:45
szabgab but I still don't see how can I call the parent
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'parrot;Signature;params' pc 3355 (src/classes/Signature.pir:179)␤»
moritz_ setrlimit++
submethods aren't designed to be callable from the child 11:46
masak oh, I totally missed that they were submethods!
szabgab I tried it with regulare method and that did not work either
masak szabgab: what moritz_ said.
submethods have 'self', like methods, but are invisible from the outside, like nonexported subs. 11:47
szabgab rakudo: class A { method f() {say "A"}}; class B is A {method f() {say "B"; }}; my $x=B.new; $x.f;
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«B␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class A { method m { say "A" } }; class B is A { method m { say "B"; self.SUPER::m() } }; B.new.m
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«B␤Could not locate a method 'SUPER::m' to invoke on class 'B'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15853 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
szabgab but if I add self.f() it will recurse again
masak I'm afraid ruoso's trick is the only one that works right now. 11:48
moritz_ do we have a TODO ticket?
szabgab I think the keyword is WALK here
masak moritz_: dunno.
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szabgab I don't see that in the linked IRC log 11:49
jnthn I guess eventually we should have $x.SUPER::foo or similar working.
masak szabgab: I mean the exact line I linked to. 11:50
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szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say 2 } }; my $b = B.new; A.HOW.dispatch($b,'foo'); 11:50
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak aye, that one.
that's a bit magical. 11:51
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say 2 } }; my $b = B.new; foo();
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 82 (EVAL_20:43)␤»
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say 2 } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo();
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«2␤»
masak both the fact that you can call A's foo on a B object, and the fact that you can see submethods for the outside. :)
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say 2; A.HOW.dispatch(self,'foo') } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo();
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«2␤1␤»
jnthn Being able to call submethods is fine.
AFAIUTS. 11:52
moritz_ shouldn't dispatch be a method in the meta class?
ie $obj.^dispatch?
jnthn It just won't look at any in a parent class.
szabgab how can I get the name of the current method and the current class within the method ?
jnthn $obj.^dispatch(...) is just sugar for $obj.HOW.dispatch($obj, ...)
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say self.WHAT; say 2; A.HOW.dispatch(self,'foo') } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo(); 11:53
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«B␤2␤1␤»
moritz_ jnthn: ah, right
masak moritz_: wouldn't $obj.^dispatch be the same as $obj.HOW.dispatch ?
oh, you already said that. :P
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say self.ISA; say 2; A.HOW.dispatch(self,'foo') } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo();
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p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Could not locate a method 'ISA' to invoke on class 'B'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15853 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤» 11:53
jnthn masak: It's not the same, because note where it also sticks $obj
masak oh, right.
I remember now.
jnthn has managed to injure his knee and can't go for a nice walk. :-( 11:54
On the up side, I might get some code and (ooh, shock) my NPW slides done...
masak I've started procrastinating my slides early this time. 11:55
szabgab rakudo: class A { submethod foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { submethod foo { say 2; A.HOW.dispatch(self,'foo') } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo();
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«2␤1␤»
szabgab rakudo: class A { method foo { say 1 } }; class B is A { method foo { say 2; A.HOW.dispatch(self,'foo') } }; my $b = B.new; $b.foo();
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«2␤1␤»
masak szabgab: there you go.
szabgab so this works on methods as well 11:56
masak aye.
jnthn also has his email pile to deal with
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eiro pastebin.com/m9ca91b2 12:05
buubot eiro: The paste m9ca91b2 has been copied to erxz.com/pb/16830
eiro il compiles, but when i run perl6, it eat all my cpu and doesnothing :( 12:06
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eiro so i wonder to myself: how to debug now ? 12:06
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eiro read the pir ? 12:06
masak eiro: if I were you, I would start with the smallest possible grammar, and make it do the right thing. 12:09
then build it up piece by piece.
moritz_ that's good advice; grammars are hard to get right with top down approach
eiro masak, that was what i expected : a good stragetgy 12:10
strategy! thanks
masak good luck!
moritz_ the best stragey is to use split() ;-)
eiro thanks
moritz_, :-)) 12:11
moritz_ eiro: but if you want to use grammars... beware that rule { ... } implies whitespaces
eiro: if you don't want that, use a token (non-backtracking) or a regex (backtracking)
[^:]+ doesn't do what you think 12:12
<-[:]> would be a negated character class
matchiing everything but :
rakudo: say ?("abc" ~~ m/^<-[:]>*$/)
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ?("a:bc" ~~ m/^<-[:]>*$/)
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ [...] are non-capturing groups, ^ is an anchor (start of string) 12:13
and : is a non-backtracking assertion
so [^:] is something very obscure ;-)
masak no, it's just a non-capturing group with a start-of-line and a colon in it. 12:14
nothing obscure about it. :)
sorry, start-of-string.
moritz_ so what is the meaning of a colon after an assertion? 12:15
it's redundant, I think
masak oh, right. it needs to be quoted to be a literal colon.
maybe it should even be an error in its unquoted form? 12:17
masak senses a rakudobug...
moritz_ no, because : has a meaning
14:13 <@moritz_> and : is a non-backtracking assertion
"assertion" is probably the wrong word
masak hm. right. 12:18
rakudo: say "foo" ~~ /[^:]/
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«␤»
masak how come that one doesn't match?
moritz_ it does match
masak oh. 12:19
moritz_ but captures a zero-length string
rakudo: say ?("foo" ~~ /[^:]/)
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak my bug hunting senses are thrown off today.
eiro oh ... ok! 12:20
i'll try to fix
pmurias ruoso: how should it i specify in a %method signature that a given param is pre-FETCH'ed? 12:23
ruoso hi pmurias 12:30
pmurias, that's what it usually is
:($foo) means it is fetched
pmurias ruoso: hi 12:31
ruoso :($foo is ref) means otherwise 12:32
I'm still unsure about wich is the difference between is ref and is rw
pmurias i'm not sure how converting to a lvalue would look like 12:33
moritz_ sub f($x is rw) { $x = 3 }; sub g($x is ref) { $x = 3 }; f(@a[0]) # no autoviv g(@a[0]) # autovivication
(I think so, not 100% sure though) 12:34
ruoso yes... is rw tries to turn it into a lvalue
is ref doesn't
pmurias, I think "is rw" will work with a bare value 12:35
rakudo: sub f($x is rw) {say $x}; f(3);
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«3␤»
ruoso rakudo: sub f($x is rw) {say $x++}; f(3); 12:36
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«3␤»
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ruoso rakudo: sub f($x is ref) {say $x++}; f(3); 12:36
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15853 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
ruoso which means that it actually needs a way to figure out if it's enclosed in a container or not... 12:37
in the "is rw" case, that is
eiro it doesn't match but it ends correctly .. that's my step of the day... thanks all, go with my children
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ruoso pmurias, but I guess that for the purposes of the RI DSL, we can have only bare "$x" and "$x is ref" 12:39
pmurias ruoso: maybe a CONTAINER method could work, which would wrap the object in a container if nessesary
maybe LVALUE would be a better name 12:41
ruoso but how to detect if ther is a container already?
moritz_, are you aware how rakudo does it?
pmurias a container knows if it's a container and would return itself, values would wrap themself up in a Scalar
ruoso ah... 12:42
I see what you mean
hmm...
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moritz_ ruoso: I don't think rakudo does it all (ie the ref/rw distinction) 12:42
ruoso moritz_, it does... see p6eval above 12:43
pmurias, well... maybe it is an interesting way of doing it
and it also allows the object to decide which type of container it wants 12:44
pmurias, yes... I'm convinced... that can be done that way... 12:46
pmurias is looking how rakudo does it
ruoso later & 12:47
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jnthn I don't *think* Rakudo knows much about is ref just yet 12:58
is rw we should be getting right
I guess maybe we'll have to so some check that we have a container passed in...
Maybe something to check during the sig binding or something.
ruoso jnthn, but how do you figure out it is a container? 13:01
jnthn I guess look at the type of thingy it is. 13:02
Not sure if there's a standard way of something saying "btw I'm a container" 13:03
Probably needs to be if one isn't spec'd.
pmurias ruoso: the LVALUE method would be sort of an lvalue context
ruoso I don't think it is spec'd
yes
that's why I think it fits in the model 13:04
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jnthn hmmm 13:10
.can('STORE') ?
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pmurias jnthn: everything can STORE in smop 13:21
jnthn 3.can(STORE)?
pmurias but some things die during STORE with an immutable error message 13:22
jnthn Ah. That approach won't work for smop then. 13:23
It may cut it for Rakudo, though I don't think we're exposing STORE much just yet...
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masak oh no, that won't do. that won't do at all. 13:33
jnthn masak: Huh? 13:34
masak mberends++ does cool things in the create-new-project script, but it also introduces increased coupling between projects and proto.
specifically, that script creates a Configure.p6 which defers to a module included in proto. 13:35
making proto a necessary (and undeclared) dependency -- kind of the antithesis of what proto should be. 13:36
jnthn Ah.
masak but I realise it's a tricky problem.
it's better to do it a little wrong in the beginning. :) 13:37
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masak at least if the alternative is spending an eternity in an ivory tower. 13:37
jnthn "Works but needs improvements" is probably better than "doesn't exist" :-)
masak exactly.
jnthn Plus getting stuff spot on first time is, well, hard.
masak it's more than hard. it's a superpower. 13:38
I'll add an XXX comment and move on for now.
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jnthn
.oO( sometimes it's easy to mistake a couple of lines of IRC for spam subjects )
 13:43
masak 哈哈 13:49
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masak jnthn: and I haven't even told you about the cheap meds and university diplomas yet. :) 13:51
someone should do memetic studies on the different Perl 6 projects on github. ideas are forming and "borrowed" into other projects. not just source code, but also the config and make files. 13:53
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jnthn Hopefully the good ideas are the ones being borrowed. :-) 13:54
masak time will tell, but yes, that's the idea.
they are "good" in the sense that the author has a goal, and deserts her own solution for one from another project that she feels has greater fitness. 13:58
it's author-driven evolution.
jnthn glares at the bruise on his hand that is making typing marginally more painful today 14:03
Turns out not noticing a step, tripping and falling over isn't a great idea... 14:04
masak ouch. be careful, we need you.
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masak g'ah! foiled again by the Makefile format's insane whitespace policies! 14:05
jnthn There is a slightly amusing irony in that after managing all through the icy winter - where there were amples chances to slip - that I managed not to, and instead did so on pretty much the first day of the year where we had t-shirt weather. 14:06
Oh? You put spaces instead of tabs?
Guess what? My make program doesn't complain about that. :-|
masak good for you. :P 14:07
mine just fails mysteriously. 14:08
jnthn It's only good until I push my changes. ;-)
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dukeleto mornin' 14:14
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masak Matt-W, mberends, moritz_: I've just adapted Druid to build under proto. The configure and make files contain all manner of subtle differences from create-new-project in proto, all of which I would like to discuss at some point. 14:17
actually, I should probably make a list of those differences.
masak does that
here: github.com/masak/druid/commit/9c33a...819a4aeb22 14:26
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pmichaud good morning #perl6 14:37
masak hi pm 14:38
s1n good morning 14:45
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s1n oo question: i want to define some class members in a derived class as early as possible. what's the best way to go about that? overload CREATE? 14:50
jnthn Probably BUILD... 14:51
s1n what's the difference?
masak jnthn: but they were class members...
jnthn oh
class members
Just assign to them?
s1n yeah, i did a has $.blah
jnthn: where?
jnthn Oh, those aren't class members, they're instance members.
masak I'd also guess just assign to them. top of the class def.
jnthn has $.answer = 42; 14:52
s1n perl6 has class level members as well?
jnthn my $.answer = 42;
Well, really they're lexicals but write a . and the compiler throws in a bonus accessor method. ;-)
s1n i.e. with java, tacking 'static' defines the member on the instance of the class versus the instance
masak rakudo: class A { my $.foo = 42 }; class B is A { $.foo = 7 } 14:53
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤current instr.: 'parrot;B;_block30' pc 177 (EVAL_19:78)␤»
s1n heh
masak jnthn: should that work? :)
pmichaud no.
There's no $.foo in scope.
masak right. makes sense.
the error is a bit strange, though.
s1n rakudo: class A { has $.foo = 42 }; class B is A { my $.foo = 7 }; say $B.foo 14:54
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$B' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
masak maybe simply disallow $.foo-like vars outside of methods-level blocks?
s1n err i can never get that last accessor right, what did i do wrong there?
masak s1n: B.foo
s1n should i have used :: instead of .?
jnthn Hmm. Wasn't there some speculation that we'd make self be the proto-object inside the class body at some point... 14:55
s1n rakudo: class A { has $.foo = 42 }; class B is A { my $.foo = 7 }; say B.foo
masak jnthn: I think so. it might even have been I who suggested it.
pmichaud jnthn: perhaps, but since the proto doesn't really exist yet...
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«7␤»
pmichaud (in rakudo, at least)
s1n pmichaud: is that the proper way?
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, yes, that is a slight issue. ;-)
masak don't remember when. oh yes, it was because one might want to do 'my $.foo = $.bar + 2'
jnthn Oh, I think that has a different solution. 14:56
(the RHS is a closure with self defined)
pmichaud s1n: it's proper depending on what you want to do
masak jnthn: ah.
pmichaud jnthn: note 'my'
no closure with 'my'
just with 'has'
masak :)
s1n pmichaud: set the inherited members as early as possible
jnthn Oh, yes.
pmichaud s1n: what you wrote above creates a new member, not set the member of A 14:57
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jnthn Aye. I think Rakudo is giving the correct answer there. 14:57
s1n pmichaud: okay, how do i do what i want? in a CREATE?
pmichaud I suspect override method new. 14:58
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pmichaud (note that I know how to do that part yet either.) 14:58
s/note/not/ 14:59
s1n so we have BUILD, CREATE, and new methods that all are involved in a class defining what to do during construction?
pmichaud CREATE does the creation of the object
BUILD says how to initialize the object for a given class
new indicates how to build an object when requested by a client
i.e., new calls (through some layers) CREATE and BUILD 15:00
s1n new and BUILD sound very similar
pmichaud BUILD only does it for a single class
not for the entire hierarchy
s1n i don't follow
pmichaud if I have class A and class B is A, then B's BUILD submethod would identify how to initialize the members of B. It would not indicate how to initialize the members of A.
s1n that's kinda goofy, why would that be a feature of the language? 15:01
why not simplify it down to just the new?
when i inherit a class, i generally want to initialize the whole mess... 15:02
masak s1n: new and BUILD fill different niches.
s1n: you override the one you need to.
s1n masak: yeah i get that but generally, i'll just overload new and do whatever i want
masak s1n: no, overloading new is only for those times when overloading BUILD isn't enough. 15:03
...if I understood it correctly.
pmichaud by having a separate BUILD and new, a class can indicate how it should be initialized without having to worry about calling the .new's of its parent classes.
s1n masak: yes, but it just seems easier to _always_ overload new and use it as i see fit
masak s1n: it isn't.
pmichaud indeed, calling the .new's of its parent classes would be wrong, because those would create new objects instead of initializing the existing instance 15:04
s1n pmichaud: do you have to call the .new of the entire hierarchy?
masak BUILD does a subpart of what new does.
pmichaud s1n: the default .new calls all of the BUILDs for you
s1n can i call the default .new?
i.e. like java's super()?
or in c++ 15:05
pmichaud you probably don't want to call super.new, though, because that would create new objects. Not initialize the existing one.
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s1n oh i was thinking wrong 15:06
i mean, can i call the default .new for my class? that will basically call all the BUILD methods and then i can do what i need?
so if i overload .new, is the original still available?
pmichaud yes, probably as Object.new or Object::new or something like that. I'm not certain of the syntax. 15:07
tbh, I haven't really thought much about how this stuff gets used -- I've just implemented whatever the spec says :-)
afk for a bit 15:08
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s1n basically, i'm trying to see if i can work around having to think about new versus BUILD 15:08
jnthn recommends going to the pub instead ;-)
masak proto now tries to clone a private repo before it tries the public one. 15:09
jnthn s1n: Generally, new is probably what you want to change to control the external interface of how an object instantiation looks.
As in, what does creating an object of that type look like. What values should be initailizable? With named or with psotional params? All those things. 15:10
masak now there's nothing stopping me from dogfooding proto for all my projects.
jnthn Whereas if you just want to do setting defaults but it's more complex than you can do on the has $.x = ... line, BUILD is probably the place.
s1n hmmm this is interesting, i don't really recall anything similar to other languages 15:11
i.e. in java/c++, you just overload your constructor to change it's external interface
whereas perl6 made 2 methods: one to just init itself, and a set to define the constructors 15:12
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jnthn s1n: Aye, it's different. 15:12
s1n out of curiousity, why was this adopted? i can't really do much with a proto after BUILD anyways, right? 15:13
jnthn Might be partly to do with the separation of representation and metaclass stuff. 15:15
p6l is perhaps more the place to ask though, for a language design perspective. 15:16
masak yes, it must have to do with Perl 6 being OO methodology agnostic.
s1n i'm just curious, i'm still having trouble grasping perl6's OO model (or lack thereof) 15:17
masak it has less of a lack thereof than Perl 5. :)
s1n which doesn't say much :)
masak indeed.
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s1n rakudo: class Foo { has $.yay }; class Bar is Foo { method BUILD { self.yay = "yay"; }}; my Bar $y .= new; say $y.yay 15:22
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;Bar;BUILD' pc 242 (EVAL_20:94)␤» 15:23
s1n what am i doing wrong there?
$y.yay isn't calling the autogenerated method?
masak s1n: for one, you didn't declare $.yay as rw. 15:24
but also, I don't know if 'self.yay = ...' works.
I'd have written '$!yay = ...'
s1n rakudo: class Foo { has $.yay }; class Bar is Foo { method BUILD { self.yay = "yay"; }}; my Bar $y .= new; 15:25
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;Bar;BUILD' pc 216 (EVAL_20:91)␤»
masak s1n: ah. the problem is in the parameters to BUILD.
you're not supplying any.
s1n checks the spec again 15:26
masak Rakudo doesn't implement the spec right now, I'm afraid.
there's an RT ticket about it.
but supply two parameters and you'll be fine.
s1n two? what are they? 15:27
masak prototype and new object, I think. 15:29
let's see if I can dig up the discussion about this from a few days ago.
ah. one object. 15:31
irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-04-02#i_1033380
one parameter. the other one is the invocant.
s1n does it have to be defined as a submethod?
masak that's the idea, at least.
I don't think it has to, though.
not sure. 15:32
s1n rakudo: class A { has $.foo is rw; submethod BUILD($obj) { $obj.foo = 7 } }; A.new 15:33
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in getprop()␤current instr.: 'infix:=' pc 14068 (src/builtins/assign.pir:21)␤»
s1n what does that error mean?
masak that things have gotten worse since Friday. :)
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masak sorry, Thursday. 15:34
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masak s1n: that error, and related ones, made me use 'new' for the time being, instead of 'BUILD'. 15:35
rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=64386 15:36
pmichaud yes, BUILD needs to be a submethod. 15:40
Otherwise it gets inherited.
masak but is it a convention, or is it enforced? 15:41
pmichaud well, things can break if you do it as a method.
for example:
masak so, it's a convention.
s1n if it's required, shouldn't it be a runtime error?
pmichaud class A { method BUILD { ... } }; class B is A { ... }; # oops!
s1n or even a compile error
pmichaud B ends up inheriting A's build. 15:42
instead of inheriting Object's BUILD, which is what B will need in order to instantiate its attributes.
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masak pmichaud: aye. 15:42
jnthn Don't forget that bless fits into this picture somewhere too. 15:43
pmichaud and yes, Rakudo needs to be updated to follow the (corrected) spec. The version of BUILD that I wrote (the one Rakudo currently has) was taken from the sm0p guidelines. 15:44
and the spec has since evolved differently.
masak aha. so that's what happened.
well, the Druid sources are already rid of their init() method workarounds. 15:45
they are using new() right now, and will move over to BUILD as soon as that's possible.
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jnthn Maybe something to review on my Rakudo day next week. 15:45
Or Oslo. ;-)
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masak really looks forward to NPW 15:46
pmichaud same here.
jnthn Me too!
pmichaud I'm glad I have lots of days there.
jnthn Yeah, same.
Glad hackathon is 3 days not 2. 15:47
pmichaud glad I went ahead and extended my trip for the 3-day hackathon instead of just 2.
jnthn Yes. :-)
pmichaud: How up to date is the ROADMAP at the moment? 15:48
Is it on your things to review list, or was it recently reviewed, or is it a little old but still pretty much stands?
pmichaud it's on my things to review list. 15:49
jnthn Updated: 2008-08-16 - suggests either the first or third of those. :-)
Ok.
pmichaud If not before NPW, then on the Wednesday before NPW
jnthn Isn't that before NPW either way? ;-) 15:50
masak jnthn: don't complain! :P
pmichaud Well, I could say I'll do it in May, which is before NPW '10 15:51
jnthn ;-)
OK. I'm sort of pondering, what to work on next. 15:52
Actually, looking through this current ROADMAP, I'm kinda taken by how much of it we've actually achieved.
masak (both of you)++ 15:53
pmichaud jnthn: have you finished the queue of RT tickets I assigned to you? ;-)
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jnthn pmichaud: Not all. Some are hard. :-P 15:54
mib_0gaypc rakudo: say "hello"
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«hello␤»
pmichaud wonders if he should put an easter egg in rakudo so that when it's run from p6eval it goes "Look, I'm tired of saying 'hello' all the time."
mib_0gaypc rakudo: (1..Inf)[*-1]
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: 'postcircumfix:[ ]' pc 5020 (src/classes/Positional.pir:138)␤»
pmichaud rakudo doesn't support infinite ranges yet.
masak pmichaud: :D
jnthn ...and when it does, getting the last element of it may not be too performant. ;-) 15:55
masak rakudo: say (1..8)[*-1]
jnthn Well, I guess we can hand back Inf.
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'Range'␤current instr.: 'postcircumfix:[ ]' pc 5020 (src/classes/Positional.pir:138)␤»
masak submits rakudobug
mib_0gaypc this is szabgab, showing off in class :-)
masak hi, class! 15:56
jnthn Didn't we have another ticket field on postcircumfix recently?
jnthn needs to be in that code in the next couple of days anyways...
PhatEddy yes
pmichaud Range doesn't understand Positional yet.
masak jnthn: we have tickets on everything. :)
jnthn Ah, yes, I guess Range will want its own implementation of Positional. 15:57
mib_0gaypc rakudo: class A { method f() {say "hi"}}; my $x = A.new; $x.f
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«hi␤»
mib_0gaypc rakudo: class A { method f() {say "hi"}}; my $x = A.new; $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: ( no output )
jnthn mib_0gaypc: Need .say on the end there. :-) 15:58
mib_0gaypc rakudo: class A { method f() {say "hi"}}; my $x = A.new; $x.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«A␤»
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PhatEddy ticket is rt 57790 and my patch for the range case gives "Use of uninitialized value <NL>Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Range' " which seems close ... 15:59
s/for/in/
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dalek kudo: 078012a | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 349 files, 8436 passing, 0 failing
 16:05
jnthn 8,436...and still over two weeks of development time until the next release. :-) 16:07
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masak idly wonders when we'll run out of tests to pass 16:10
16:11 masak left
pmichaud I've been working on analyzing the remainder of the test suite. 16:11
(as part of updating the roadmap) 16:12
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud it'll be a blog post, and part of my presentation.
jnthn However, some things that should be on the roadmap we just don't have tests for.
pmichaud Yes.
jnthn points at S09.
16:12 amoc left
pmichaud but when looking at the grey area of the charts, I'd like to know what we're not attempting and why. 16:13
jnthn I know we could win a 3-figure number by being able to pass positionals as nameds.
pmichaud for example, there's approximately ~2k tests having to do with Unicode features where we need some additional work in Parrot
(primarily character properties)
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jnthn Is that something you'd look to delegate? 16:14
Or that you expect to put in yourself?
pmichaud if there's someone available to delegate it to, sure.
at the moment it's going to need some design decisions made first... probably from allison.
jnthn OK.
There may be people in #parrot we can rope in to helping with that. 16:15
pmichaud for example: "Given a character, how do we decide if that character has the unicode X property"
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pmichaud where X might be any of "L", "Lu", "Ll", "M", "Z", "Latin", "Cyrillic", etc. 16:15
jnthn I'm guessing the answers is "use the Parrot API for doing such things which in turn goes and asks ICU"
pmichaud yes, but there's no Parrot API for such things. 16:16
at least, not yet.
jnthn OK. So it's (a) design an API (b) implement it in Parrot (c) use it from Rakudo.
pmichaud correct.
(b) is really easy (unless the API chooses to make it hard) 16:17
jnthn Yeah, I was figuring that while I don't know enough to do (a) well, once it's done (b) is probably mostly donkey work.
But I think we have a non-zero chance of getting someone other than us to do that bit too. 16:18
pmichaud well, since it would ultimately be interfacing with PGE, I wouldn't mind doing that bit of work. But the API is the blocker.
jnthn Ah, OK. 16:19
pmichaud i.e., it's already taken us longer to talk about it than it would likely be for me to implement it :-)
jnthn It sounds like a relatively easy-ish way to win 2,000 tests though.
pmichaud it would also be good to have autoloaded methods for it as well. 16:20
jnthn autoloaded methods?
pmichaud well, in S05, we have <isLu>, <isLetter>, <isM>, <isPs>, etc.
there's a _bunch_ of these.
but they're not common. Instead of creating all of the methods for each property up front, it might be better to create them on-demand. 16:21
jnthn Hmm.
jnthn glances at CANDO is S1
*S12
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jnthn Ah, the details are in S10. 16:23
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pmichaud anyway, I'm more curious how to do it from a Parrot level. 16:24
jnthn Ah. I'm less sure about that. 16:25
Override find_method is one way... 16:26
pmichaud yes, although overriding find_method in PIR sounds expensive :-)
we _really_ are going to need some way to make those calls less expensive.
jnthn Ah, true.
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s1n jnthn: (reading back) if you want something to do, i'd actually like to see namespaces (package/module) working better (i had problems the other day) i'd do it myself, but i need some sort of guiding. if you want to either work that or show me how to find my way around, that'd be great: 16:27
jnthn What aspects of them are you finding lacking?
s1n lemme check the logs... 16:28
jnthn (I know a bunch of stuff is not done, but knowing what you're running into would help me prioritise a bit...)
s1n irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-04-02#i_1032140 16:29
i tried that so i resorted in working around it
i just renamed the class: 'class Foo::Bar {...}'
i tried looking at actions.pm but i don't really know NQP well enough and not really sure what of the package_declaration (iirc) is broken 16:30
jnthn We are somewhat handling nested namespaces.
rakudo: use v6; package Foo { class Bar { method baz { say "baz"; } }; Bar.baz; } 16:31
p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in can()␤current instr.: '!dispatch_method' pc 17110 (src/builtins/guts.pir:104)␤»
s1n also, this BUILD thing, i'm having a hard time using it correctly
jnthn Ugh.
s1n yeah, so that's something i want to use now
jnthn Aye.
OK, I'll pop them on my task list.
s1n i can work around it, but it's kinda kludgy 16:32
at the very least, maybe you could show me around and help me fix it
pmichaud I think part of the issue is that we don't have a clean way to do a nested namespace search -- i.e., converting 'Bar' into 'Foo::Bar'
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s1n best way to learn is to do, but i don't know how to do yet :) 16:32
jnthn pmichaud: Yes, that's for sure part of it. 16:33
I should check what *should* work too. I mean, is Foo::Bar inside a package Foo actually meant to mean the equivalent in the otuer scope of Foo::Bar or Foo::Foo::Bar. 16:34
Anyway, afk for a bit. 16:36
pmichaud jnthn: I've never quite understood that one either.
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pmichaud I know it came up recently. 16:36
it's one of the reasons why 'is also' was changed to 'augment' 16:37
s1n i'd like to help, if anyone is willing to help me :/
dog_training&
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rindolf Hi all. 19:05
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pmurias jnthn: not having a STORE instead of die'ing with a helpfull message might be a better choice 19:55
jnthn pmurias: I guess it means you could use that as a heuristic for "is it a container"... 20:05
I just didn't see things that couldn't store having a store method, but I guess we have fairly different underlying architectures. 20:06
ruoso jnthn, pmurias, the thing is that for SMOP, can is considerably more expensive... 20:09
so, having LVALUE as a coercion is better...
and it has the benefit that is not the signature that choose the container, but the object itself 20:10
ruoso later &
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pugs_svn r26097 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] started rewritting the s1p hash, the Lexical Prelude is constructed 21:06
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pdc compared to Python, is it unfair to say that Perl is better suited to writing utility scripts, rather than full applications? If not, why don't I see more apps written in perl? Does Perl6 change this at all? 23:01
literal Perl 6 is more "disciplined" by default, which might make it more suitable for that. 23:04
And has a very good object model, though Perl 5 also gained a similarly good one (Moose) recently 23:05
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pdc I am torn between learning Perl or Python to go alongside C. Python appealed to me because it seems like it would allow me to do everything I can do in C, in half the time. Which would be really handy sometimes. But Perl 6 has some very nice features and a new version should get rid of the 'perl is dying' mentality. Python does seem more geared for full apps, though 23:08
literal But I think being well-suited to write utility scripts doesn't necessarily have to negatively affect a language's usefulness in large applications
I don't think you'd be able to do everything you can in C, in half the time, in Perl 6 right now. Maybe in a couple of years... 23:09
pdc Python is very big on the desktop now (GTK+ apps, etc). Perl doesn't seem to even have a presence in the area
literal Perl 5 would definitely work for that.
Yeah, I've noticed that. 23:10
Perl has all the stuff necessary, though. Bindings, etc.
moritz_ pdc: yes, perl bidings for graphic widgets have traditionally been weak... except for Tk, which looks like 1982 still
pdc hehe 23:11
literal The Wx and GTK+ are in good shape, as far as I know...
+bindings
pdc oh really? That's good to know
literal Here's one recent Perl application in Wx, for example: padre.perlide.org/wiki/Screenshots 23:12
moritz_ literal: yes, Wx is rather hard to build
literal moritz_: is that any different when using it from Python? 23:13
moritz_ literal: dunno 23:14
wolverian the Gtk+ bindings are fine
pdc and when perl 6 is released, will the majority of Perl programmers move on to 6 (as far as the community is aware)? So we can also expect CPAN to fast gain modules targetted at Perl 6, bindings, documentation, etc?
literal I doubt it
pdc oh!
literal Perl 5 is still the most useful programming language out there, as far as I know :)
But slowly and surely, they will probably switch, because Perl 6 is awesome. 23:15
moritz_ well, I do expect adaption rate to grow
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pdc Perl 6 does indeed look awesome. and I think I will opt for Perl rather than Python 23:16
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pdc I presume learning Perl 5 isn't a bad precursor to learning Perl 6? 23:17
literal quite the opposite
Perl 6 is still Perl :) 23:18
pdc I said "isn't a bad"
so I'm right?
wolverian the two are not mutually exclusive, either, though naturally starting with one is probably better.
literal yeah, it's a good precursor
pdc hehe ok
great
well that's all my major questions answered. I hear that Perl people were nice guys :) 23:19
unlike ##c !
wolverian we _were_ nice? :(
literal hehe
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pdc I look forward to making unreadable Perl soon, then. As soon as my studies are completed in a few weeks 23:20
wolverian yay!
literal pdc: what sort of stuff programs do you (intend to) write?
-stuff
wolverian bookmark learn.perl.org 23:21
pdc literal: I'm not sure, tbh. I'm looking for a second language to go with my C. So it will be anything and everything. I want it to be a scripting language so I have something to complement C 23:22
literal ok 23:23
pdc Python, as I said, seemed like a great lang for rapid software development. Python, I'm sure, can fullfil that to a large extent
literal Perl's best asset, which I think no other language can match (still), is CPAN
wolverian absolutely.
pdc it seems strange to me that a collection of unofficial, non-quality-assured code is so important. I'm sure I will come to love it 23:24
nb: I don't really know CPAN. I may have got those aspects of it very wrong 23:25
wolverian it's just pragmatic.
literal its quality is assured through reuse and testing
wolverian and reviews. :)
literal the CPAN Testers are great, all the modules on CPAN are tested architectures, operating systems, and Perl versions, if you ship tests with your modules 23:26
tested on*
I don't think other languages' code repositories do this
moritz_ pdc: well, there are about 17k modules on CPAN. Even if 90% of them are crap, there are nearly 2k of awesome modules remaining ;-) 23:27
pdc oh wow you're suggesting that 90% of CPAN possible isn't good? :)
s/possible/possibly/
moritz_ pdc: 90% of all software is crap ;-) 23:28
(personal opinion only) 23:29
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literal pdc: the archive on this blog might be of interest to you -> modernperlbooks.com/ 23:29
moritz_ -> bed
pdc good night moritz_ 23:30
literal: bookmarked, thanks
literal it's not really about Perl books, though :) 23:31
pdc and thank you for all your answers and thought. I look forward to getting started on Perl 5 in a few weeks
literal feel free to bug me if you've got more questions
pdc thanks. I will no doubt idle here and in #perl anyhow 23:33
literal cool
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