»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is your friend!
Set by Tene on 14 May 2009.
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pugs_svn r26978 | ron++ | added test for call to multimeth with wrong number of args RT #66006 02:03
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ruoso Hello! 02:28
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skids So anyone want to talk about macros, now that lichtkind has left? :-) 02:30
Tene what about macros? 02:31
skids Nothin. Joke.
dextius I "use macro" in Perl5, very useful, for avoiding function call overhead :-)
I have made a small update to a Rakudo test, what is the process for getting this reviewed / checked in? 02:32
skids Is it rakudo-specific, or good for all Perl6? 02:33
dextius it's a spec test in the pugs suite..
S03-operators/autoincrement.t
skids Ah, well, either get someone to give you a commit bit if you expect to contribute often, or try to hook up with morris or masak who may put it in for you 02:34
since they do tests often. 02:35
Tene dextius: /msg me an email address and preferred username, and I'll give you a commit bit for pugs
dextius Tene: What is the review process for changes?
skids "ask forgiveness not permission" I think, for pugs. 02:36
dextius I'll be careful then. 02:37
Tene that's right
skids Though if you are unsure, it can be good to get someone's attention here or on p6l for comments first.
dextius is excited.. have wanted to contribute to this since the Parrot O'Reilly books came out! 02:40
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skids dextius: fwiw, pmichaud was working on postfix:<++> and prefix:<++> today 02:51
Don't think his changes are in yet though, unless I missed dalek.
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dextius I'll keep clear for at least a week and update both parrot and rakudo before I do anything :-) 02:53
g'night!
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pasteling "ruoso" at 189.97.61.71 pasted "odd behavior by rakudo" (62 lines, 2K) at sial.org/pbot/36941 02:57
ruoso the paste above has a code that presents some odd behavior in rakudo...
it initializes an array with some values, but it gets reset to zero for some reason 02:58
when executing, note the output from lines 33 vs 35 03:00
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skids ruoso: not that it has anything to do with the problem, but shouldn't it be for 0..^$.width? 03:19
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skids Ah... i think... [] xx foo = foo copies of the same exact anonymous array. 03:35
each @new[$x] bound to the same array.
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skids ruoso: try for 0..^$.width { @new.push([]) }; instead of [] xx $.width 03:40
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pmichaud correct -- [] xx $n results in a list with $n elements, all referring to the same array. 04:02
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ruoso pmichaud, but is that expected or is it a bug? 04:33
pmichaud as far as I know, it's expected
it's the same as 04:34
my $a = []; ($a, $a, $a)
ruoso ok...
pmichaud or, more precisely:
my $a = []; $a xx $n 04:35
ruoso rakudo takes 23s to compute 4 iterations of a 15x15 grid
pmichaud well, what we learned yesterday is that postfix:<++> and ranges (which use postfix:<++>) are really slow.
I've been working on speeding them up today, but I keep running into roadblocks 04:36
pasteling "ruoso" at 189.97.61.71 pasted "working conway's game of life in rakudo" (57 lines, 1.7K) at sial.org/pbot/36942
ruoso the code could be prettier... but cascading maps and greps don't quite work 04:38
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ruoso while implementing game-of-life, I realized how cool "for ^$width X ^$height -> $x, $y { ... }" is 04:47
pmichaud why does the pastbot code show 0..^$.width, ooc?
why not just ^$.width ?
ruoso because I only reduced that in the last minute 04:48
;)
pmichaud ahhhhh
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pmichaud it's still a range (and still slow in current rakudo) 04:48
pasteling "ruoso" at 189.97.61.71 pasted "simplified working conway's game of life in rakudo" (51 lines, 1.6K) at sial.org/pbot/36943 04:51
ruoso pmichaud, do you see any other way of making that code even simpler? 04:54
pmichaud nothing major 04:55
but I'm still heads-down in the postfix:<++> stuff at the moment, so not looking too closely
ruoso ok...
pmichaud last line could be: say .perl for $g.list
or say .perl for @($g) 04:56
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JDlugosz Helllo anyone 05:27
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Tene JDlugosz: Hi! 05:41
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Matt-W Morning 07:30
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mberends morning Matt-W 07:38
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mberends DanielC: hi! 08:49
DanielC moin
hi mberends
mberends: perl6-examples/misc/Fletcher.pl <-- Unicode friendly implementation of Fletcher-16, and a small script to make the file names we were talking about yesterday. 08:52
mberends I hope not to burst your bubble, but after your nice Fletcher algorithm work I began to doubt whether any kind of hashing at all is appropriate to the problem being addresses, namely telling apart the conflicting file names originating from a very small number of authors/authorities
*addressed
DanielC ok
It was just an idea. What's the problem with hashing? 08:53
mberends particularly since hashing alone is by definition not a complete solution
DanielC I have an issue with that statement.
Any reasonable hash should be a complete solution. 08:54
Use Fletcher-32 and the chances of collision are really remote.
mberends collisions will happen. there is such a thing as a "Perfect Hash", but it is based on constructing a custom hashing function for a finite set of possible strings. 08:55
DanielC 32-bit hash => 64k authors with the same module name and the same version before you can expect a collision.
160-bit hash (e.g. sha1) => 1e14 authors with the same module name and the same version before you can expect a collision 08:56
mberends the whole hashing approach looks like overengineering for the small variety of :auth values that will be required. 08:57
DanielC 512-bit hash (e.g. whirlpool) => 1e77 authors with the same module name and the same version before a collision.
It's just a matter of choosing a hash length that is appropriate.
There are 6e9 people on earth. A 64-bit hash would allow almost everyone on earth to be an author of the same module with the same version. 08:58
mberends adding more bits is so... brute force :( 08:59
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mberends I have to go afk for a few hours, but I'd like to ask if you can think of non-hashing alternative, because I think I can. 09:00
DanielC I think 64 bits is far more than we need. I'm just making a point here, that the hash length can be selected to make the chance of collision small enough.
masak ni hao, #perl6 adventurers.
DanielC I think that a hashing alternative is very elegant. I think a 32-bit hash would be an excellent choice.
mberends: On a different topic: Can you tell me if a single module can have more than one file? 09:01
masak: hi!
masak waves happily
DanielC mberends: A non-hashing alternative is to urlencode all the fields instead of hashing them.
mberends sorry, I have to go, but am very interested in continuing this discussion later. 09:02
DanielC sure
mberends afk &
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DanielC Maybe masak can tell me if a module is always one file or if it can contain several files :-) 09:03
masak DanielC: been thinking a bit more about your dir structure auth/Foo::Bar/ver.
DanielC yeah, that's what mberends was just talking about, forget about the dir structure :-)
masak oh, ok.
I see I need to backlog. :) 09:04
DanielC Yesterday we were talking about putting all the files in one single directory and naming them with: Foo::Bar-auth:4ca03-ver:1.2.0
masak DanielC: of course a module can consist of several files. that's what 'augment' gives us.
DanielC thanks
masak DanielC: that sounds sane.
DanielC The naming scheme is automatically extensible (more metadata) 09:05
masak: Take a look at perl6-examples/misc/Fletcher.pl
masak does so
DanielC: nice. real code is always pleasant to look at. 09:07
DanielC++
DanielC :-)
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masak DanielC: one small nit: must we have a dir called 'misc'? :) 09:08
everything in this world is misc.
it's like calling it 'stuff' or 'data'...
DanielC I didn't know what to call it...
yeah
masak DanielC: perhaps because it contains two very different things.
DanielC I'm happy to put Fletcher.pl elsewhere, but where?
masak DanielC: we might move out the bf thing into some other directory, and call this one 'modules' or something. 09:09
DanielC We can put bf in a directory called 'acme'.
masak that works. 09:10
'acme' has CPAN connotations. 09:11
DanielC I still need a name for the module holding Fletcher.pl I can't think of anything...
he he... s/module/dir/
masak DanielC: I'd go with 'modules' or 'module-management'. 09:12
DanielC ok
ah, I see why you said 'modules'
I was thinking "but Fletcher.pl is not a module..."
masak :) 09:13
DanielC I'll pick module-management for now.
masak nod. 09:14
DanielC updated
viklund masak: I'm adding errorchecking for the run commands in proto, should it say "buildt" even if there is no Makefile? 09:15
masak viklund: yes.
viklund: the idea behind that is that there might not be a build system, and then building is trivially a no-op. 09:17
viklund yes, I thought so too
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DanielC masak: If a module can have many files then Foo::Bar-auth:4ca03-ver:1.2.0 would have to be a directory, not a file. Right? 09:19
masak viklund: and I think we should also accept both forms of build systems currently out there, the Makefile.PL one and the Configure.p6 one.
viklund runs the test './proto install all'
masak DanielC: yes, I think it needs to be that anyway. even CPAN does it like that. 09:20
viklund yes, I'm not changing anything about that, just adding error handling
DanielC masak: ok
viklund previously it said built even if the configure failed
masak viklund: yes. :(
viklund very user unfriendly
masak viklund: thank you for giving that part of proto some love. 09:21
viklund it has bitten me too many times ;)
masak "inspiring people by writing a crappy prototype" :P
viklund oh, the bleeding branch of proto defaults to bleeding rakudo now, that needs to be remembered when merging over to the master branch 09:22
masak well, as long as we merge soon after the next release, that should be ok...
because then release and bleeding will not have diverged too much yet.
viklund the master branch will fail eventually if it's not changed to default to release, but the release version needs to be changed anyways so some editing needs to be done anyways 09:24
*sigh*
masak viklund: not sure I see what you perceive to be the problem... 09:27
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viklund well, there won't be a problem as long as the master branch defaults to release 09:28
masak it does. 09:30
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viklund yes, and when bleeding is merged to master, it will default to bleeding, so that needs to be changed 09:31
it's not a problem, just something that we need to remember
or else it will be a problem
masak viklund: when you say 'default to bleeding', are you talking about what proto pulls down when installing Rakudo? 09:32
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viklund masak: yes, the generated configuration file defaults to bleeding. 09:33
masak viklund: ok. then I see.
viklund: why does it default to bleeding in the branch? because it's tedious to change the proto.config file? 09:34
viklund yep, but I also thinks it matches the expectations, if you run the bleeding branch of proto you excpect to get bleeding rakudo as well 09:36
s/exc/ex/
masak fair enough.
there's an interesting dissonance in there somewhere between the need to have a sane default for the branch and the wish to do clean merges back to master. 09:37
I wonder if that phenomenon has a name...
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Matt-W masak: 'Reality' 09:38
masak Matt-W: :P 09:39
Matt-W we were just talking about a similar problem at work
one of the lead techs is shying away from making an incompatible change because he doesn't want to tell people they need to migrate their database
even though it's a really easy migration
DanielC Matt-W: Rule 1 of tech support: users are idiots. 09:40
viklund how would I write to reduce on zip? [Z] [[<a b>], [1, 2]], doesn't work for example... 09:41
Matt-W DanielC: that's why I'm a developer :)
DanielC :-) 09:42
viklund and I can't find reductive cross mentioned in S03...
masak rakudo: my @a = <a b>, (1, 2); .perl.say given [Z] @a 09:48
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "@a"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
masak rakudobug, p'haps?
Matt-W possible
I'd expect that [Z] makes sense to have
So I'd expect it to work 09:49
viklund whatabout [X]? That's not even mentioned...
Matt-W what about [infix:<foo>] 09:50
viklund ;)
Matt-W surely it should work with anything :)
masak std: my @a; [Z] @a 09:51
p6eval std 26978: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
masak if it's good enough for STD...
Matt-W std:my @a; [X] @a
std: my @a; [X] @a
p6eval std 26978: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
Matt-W then it's good enough for me!
viklund std: my @a; [X~] @a
p6eval std 26978: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
viklund ahh 09:52
Matt-W std: sub infix:<foo>($a, $b) { }; my @a; [foo] @a;
p6eval std 26978: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 41m␤»
Matt-W yay!
masak foo++ 09:54
viklund git-cherry-pick++ 09:58
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Matt-W foo does make a nice change from x, y and z 10:09
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DanielC In Perl 6, is it possible (for example) to define a Matrix type, and then overload infix:<+> so it can do the right thing when you give it two matrices? 11:06
masak DanielC: sure. 11:07
DanielC cool
masak DanielC: just type the arguments to that infix:<+> sub to be matrices.
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DanielC I was wondering about Perl 6's ability to grow in the future... 11:08
How do you define a type?
masak DanielC: many ways. see S12. 11:09
DanielC thanks
masak most common is perhaps defining a class, but it all depends.
DanielC Well, the main thing I wanted to know is that it is possible.
Point being, the language is not stuck in time but can grow in unexpected ways. 11:10
Yesterday I saw a video of a Google talk by Larry.
I learned that the Perl 6 core is actually tiny (Larry said non-existent) and all of the operators are defined using the language itself. 11:11
e.g. postfix:<++>
So I extrapolated from that, that the language should be very maleable then.
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Matt-W @tell DanielC Yes, Perl 6 is very mallable. Ultimately we'll be writing macros and mucking about with the grammar to our hearts' content. 11:56
lambdabot Consider it noted.
jnthn o/
masak jnthn: ahoj! 11:57
jnthn masak: ahoj :-) 11:58
Matt-W hi jnthn 11:59
hi masak
masak hi Matt-W.
pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
masak morning, pm.
jnthn has a pile of not-perl6 stuff to do for the next hour or two 12:00
Then it's dispatcher debugging time.
pmichaud it's likely to take me an hour or two to recover from yesterday 12:01
Matt-W pmichaud: what did you do yesterday?
jnthn postfix:<++> was quite an ordeal?
pmichaud jnthn: *is* still an ordeal 12:02
jnthn pmichaud: oh, ouch.
pmichaud yeah.
I'm discovering lots of little issues
(nopasting) 12:03
gist.github.com/121365 # part 1 12:04
gist.github.com/121366 # part 2
Matt-W blinks 12:06
oh my
pmichaud I've got more. :0|
but gotta finish getting kids to school
Matt-W although I'm sure I've seen something similar with that being the faster way to get classes 12:07
jnthn pmichaud: Looks like PMCProxy all over again.
as in, multiple creation of...
At first guess.
Matt-W It still seems very odd that something that takes more lines of PIR to do is so much faster 12:09
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Matt-W Is it something to do with it being in a loop and making needless temporaries? 12:09
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pmichaud jnthn: yes, I'm thinking it's PMCProxy again. 12:11
We have to switch all of our isa's to use the faster form anyway, but I was shocked to discover such a speed difference
ruoso Hello!
ruoso with no time to backlog 12:12
Matt-W It really is a very surprising thing
pmichaud in postfix:<++> I ended up needing a call to '!DEREF', and simply calling !DEREF produced a 3x slowdown
(because !DEREF does isa $P0, ['ObjectRef']
Matt-W is this also something to do with the faster form tells Parrot where to look, so it doesn't have to go hunting as much for the class? 12:13
pmichaud I guess. 12:14
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, in the dispatcher changes !DEREF is dead.
pmichaud: Well, I didn't kill it yet.
pmichaud: But there's a dynop to replace it.
pmichaud ah
I was thinking about a dynop
works for me
jnthn Yeah. The performance hit was horrid without it.
pmichaud well, changing !DEREF to just use the get_namespace form instead of isa $P0, ['ObjectRef'] produced a huge speedup 12:15
jnthn Oh, I lost a bit on dispatcher performance too so we no longer quite beat sub dispatch speed. I had to stick the check in for Whatever and create the closure.
I'll work out a way to avoid that cost on every dispatch though. 12:16
Somehow.
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pmichaud well, checking for Whatever can be fast 12:19
it's fast if you already have the Whatever class stashed away somewhere that doesn't require a lookup
jnthn We still shouldn't pay the cost on every dispatch. 12:20
pmichaud anyway, to describe a bit more of the saga
jnthn I have a whole bunch of stashing-away-style optimizations to do on the dispatcher though.
pmichaud turns out that changing postfix:<++> broke enums
jnthn ooh. 12:21
pmichaud took me about 2 hours to track down why
jnthn Did you by any chance get an infinite recursion issue?
pmichaud it's because it started returning parrot Integer PMCs instead of rakudo Int objects
so that broke infix:does
I have that fixed now
jnthn infix:does should be able to handle that. :-S
pmichaud well, it doesn't. Or, it does now. :-) 12:22
but it's orse
*worse
along the way I said "okay, let's try hll_map"
and ran into...
gist.github.com/121374 # part 1 12:23
gist.github.com/121376 # part 2 12:24
creating our Int, Num, Str is five times slower than creating parrot Integer, Float, String
afk, taking kids to school 12:25
Matt-W oh dear
jnthn Well, it does create 3 times as many PMCs. :-| 12:26
Matt-W yes but then it should only be three times slower :)
(yes I know that makes no sense at all) 12:27
jnthn Matt-W: The overhead really comes because it's now not just a PMC, but a high-level Object.
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Matt-W I wasn't aware of a difference 12:27
I should find some time to learn more about Parrot 12:28
and do some Form.pm again 12:29
I got into a bit of a rut of not doing anything, due to the next big thing being handling numbers
which just looks hideously difficult 12:30
pmichaud back 12:40
pugs_svn r26979 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Fudge autoincrement.t -- test may be incorrect 12:47
pmichaud jnthn: when you have some time for a few discussion items, let me know 12:49
(no rush -- I have plenty else to do also)
jnthn pmichaud: OK, give me 30mins-1 hour. 12:51
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pmurias ruoso: hi 13:04
ruoso hi pmurias
pmurias if $!attr gets translated into self.instance_storage{$?PACKAGE~'attribute'} how will we handle role Foo {method bar {$!foo}} 13:05
jnthn Badly. ;) 13:06
ruoso pmurias, by doing a hack when composing the role
by injecting a new value for $?PACKAGE in the lexical tree of the method composed in the class
jnthn Alternatively, go of $?CLASS, which is generic. 13:07
*off 13:08
pmichaud gist.github.com/121388 # Huh?!?!?!
ruoso pmurias, jnthn, I guess $?CLASS should work as well... and makes more sense to be overriden
I mean... it already needs to be overriden
jnthn pmichaud: Hm? I'm guessing Str is :vtable('get_string')'d. 13:10
pmichaud jnthn: .... but it's not
:vtable('get_string') is Str
but more to the point, afaik there's no vtable:('get_string') or Str for Range 13:11
which is really the source of my "Huh?"
jnthn There's no generic one in Object that calls .Str?
pmichaud yes, there's a generic vtable in Object that calls .Str
but Range doesn't define .Str
jnthn Oh.
pmurias ruoso: and how does 'is rw' recognize immutable values so that they get wrapped?
jnthn So which one's it inheriting? :-S
ruoso pmurias, "is rw" is something that applies to the accessor method 13:12
pmurias, we will be able to handle it when we handle "is rw" routines 13:13
pmurias i meant is rw in signatures 13:14
all routines are is rw now
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jnthn pmichaud: OK, free now. 13:19
ruoso pmurias, all routines are "is ref" right now... but we still need a spec clarification on how to fix that
pmichaud jnthn: I'm thinking seriously about making the switch so that containers have a "rw" property and everything else is assumed readonly. 13:22
ruoso pmichaud, I'm not sure if what you're saying is related with me and pmurias' conversation... but storing that in the container doesn't really solve the problem 13:23
pmichaud ruoso: it's not related.
ruoso ah... ok
pmichaud ruoso: it's a slightly different conversation that I've been having with jnthn++ off-and-on 13:24
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masak pmurias: seen Jonathan Leto's email about GSoC updates? 13:24
ruoso but anyway... it would be nice to have a solution to the "enforcing ro in captures" thing...
jnthn pmichaud: That could be a win. 13:25
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jnthn pmichaud: I'm hoping an optimizer will be able to optimize away a lot of checks though. 13:25
pmichaud jnthn: the reason I was avoiding it previously was to avoid creating a bunch of properties on aggregates.... but we're going to end up with those anyway 13:26
and I still hope we can get all of the elements of an aggregate to share a common prophash
jnthn Well, plus we can share them for the mostpart IIRC.
pmichaud right.
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud would that switch likely interfere with your dispatch work?
I'm thinking I'll want to wait until after that's done.
and, do you see any immediate negatives? 13:27
jnthn It's unlikely to. I actually jsut locally comitted what I had so far and pulled latest trunk and no conflicts to resolve by hand.
pmichaud okay. I may look into that soonish. 13:28
Another question: enum MyEnum <a b c d>
jnthn We still need to check things are rw in a lot of places though...
(Increment being one of them.)
pmichaud I'll come back to my second question
jnthn But again, optimizer I hope will inline it. 13:29
pmichaud checking for rw isn't hard
really we just do it in assign
jnthn Yes, true.
pmichaud even increment is implemented in terms of assign
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jnthn By assign you mena infix:=? 13:29
pmichaud yes.
jnthn ok
Then yes.
DanielC Sigh... I just had to spend an hour or two rescuing my local system... Thank God for backups.
lambdabot DanielC: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
DanielC @messages 13:30
lambdabot Matt-W said 1h 34m ago: Yes, Perl 6 is very mallable. Ultimately we'll be writing macros and mucking about with the grammar to our hearts' content.
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pmichaud basically, anywhere that we have to type check a value to a container ends up going through infix:= 13:30
and rw is just part of that.
anyway, back to my second q
enum MyEnum <a b c d>
each of "a", "b", "c", "d' currently end up with "does Abstraction". Is that important? 13:31
I mean, are they really abstractions?
(same go for Bool::True and Bool::False at the moment)
jnthn They need to be parsed as type names.
pmichaud ah. 13:32
Actually, STD has changed that
jnthn The alternative is a special case.
Oh?
pmichaud they need to be parsed as *names*, but not necessarily types
jnthn Names, type names...
pmichaud STD.pm now has ".is_name" instead of ".is_type"
jnthn :-/
pmichaud where a "name" can be something more than a type, or something that "does Abstraction"
jnthn OK, we probably need to catch up with that distinction at some point.
pmichaud I might be close to that point.
jnthn OK. 13:33
It's probably not going to be so painful.
pmichaud So, is the only reason that enum/True/False have "does Abstraction" is to get .is_type to work?
jnthn Yes.
pmichaud okay.
I wasn't sure if there was something more there.
Good that there's not. Yes, it shouldn't be too painful a fix.
jnthn Above, you wrote enum, I think you meant enum values?
The name of an enum itself probably wants to stay a type name. 13:34
pmichaud correct, enum values
jnthn OK.
pmichaud I agree that the enum name itself remains Abstraction
jnthn OK, good.
pmichaud okay, if enum values don't need Abstraction (nor True nor False), then that makes it easier to get True/False/pi/e/Inf/Nan/etc to act like constants 13:35
jnthn Feel free to go ahead and do the changes you need on that.
pmichaud I will.
jnthn Don't see it impacting me.
pmichaud I just needed to make sure there wasn't something I was missing :-)
jnthn If there is, I don't see it. :-) 13:36
pmichaud okay, I think that's all I have at the moment for questions.
jnthn holds some vain hope that the exit segfaults will have vanished with the upgrade to a later Parrot revision.
13:37 FurnaceBoy joined
pmichaud no such luck from what I've seen thus far 13:37
jnthn pmichaud: Are you seeing exit segfaults too then?
pmichaud oh, Range.Str does exist, but it's in setting
okay, I see the problem now.
yay.
easy fix.
(segfaults) -- yes, I consistently get an exit segfault in slice.t or something like that
t/spec/S09-subscript_slice/slice.rakudo 0 11 27 0 ?? 13:38
jnthn OK, I've been seeing several more after my refactor.
pmichaud that's the only one, although a few others popped up yesterday while I was mucking about with hll_map
13:38 ZuLuuuuuu left
pmurias S28 mentions $?CLASS type as a Class, which is not a valid type right? 13:39
pmichaud pmurias: correct. 13:40
jnthn pmichaud: I'm thinking it probably is the proto-object.
ruoso pmurias, yeah... there's no "meta-type"
jnthn Last I remember, TimToady was speculating Class might mean "a metaclass" 13:41
ruoso wasn't that ClassHOW?
jnthn Which makes sense in the context of traits.
ruoso: No, something that means "any meta-class" 13:42
Not just ClassHOW, but WhateverHOW :-)
ruoso hmm... seems a fragile definition...
jnthn So long as we have a mechanism of knowing, "was this declared as a knowhow" it can probably fly. 13:43
pmichaud: Wow, make spectest feels faster these days...
pmichaud jnthn: it should be faster
last weekend spectest was taking 45 minutes on my benchmarking machine 13:44
as of yesterday noonish, I had it down to 25 minutes
jnthn Wow.
I don't have ICU, and still it feels faster...
pmichaud oh, yes.
the change I made to speed up parsing doesn't require ICU
jnthn Oh, cool.
:-)
pmichaud bacek++ fixed TT #24 -- the one about the hash keys not comparing correctly 13:45
that meant I could go straight to iso-8859-1 instead of ucs2
jnthn Oh nice.
Hey, does that mean we can parse unicode hypers now?
pmichaud so now parsing is slow only for files that contain unicode beyond the first 256 codepoints
oh, we're already parsing unicode hypers 13:46
jnthn ah, ok
pmichaud I fixed that about a week or so ago, I think
ruoso jnthn, but remember that not only knowhows can be used as HOW...
jnthn OK, nice.
ruoso: Huh?
pmichaud rakudo: say «hello, jnthn»;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«hello,jnthn␤»
ruoso jnthn, the HOW is just an object like any other...
jnthn, knowhow is simply a pure prototype object... 13:47
pmichaud jnthn: you changed BUILD recently, yes?
jnthn Can you translate pure prototype from smop terminology?
ruoso jnthn, it's an object that has its storage and its meta definitions all stored in itself
jnthn pmichaud: yes.
pmichaud jnthn: hmmm. In Range objects, $!from and $!to are now being held as ObjectRef->Int instead of just Int 13:48
ruoso jnthn, so it doesn't depend on external objects to dispatch its methods
jnthn pmichaud: Should be Perl6Scalar->Int
pmichaud: It's because they're constructed like normal objects now.
pmichaud should just be Int
a normal container would be just Int
rakudo: my $a = 3; say $a.PARROT; 13:49
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Int␤»
jnthn OK, then I only migrated what was already wrong in the existing BUILD.
pmichaud hmmm.
jnthn I essentially moved it over to CREATE.
pmichaud do you remember the approximate date of the change?
jnthn ruoso: Heh, sounds like what Parrot's default Object/Class is.
pmichaud I'd like to compare then to now.
jnthn pmichaud: I did it shortly before starting the dispatch refactor IIRC. 13:50
pmichaud so, after the stockholm release?
jnthn Yes
pmichaud okay, I'll just try the release copy
jnthn Think so.
pmichaud thanks.
ruoso jnthn, the idea of a knowhow is precisely to allow you to use a low-level implementation... and its use is mostly related to bootstrapping...
jnthn pmichaud: oh
pmichaud: Friday 19th May or Monday 25th May according to my log. 13:51
pmichaud jnthn: thanks.
DanielC wonders if mberends is around now.
jnthn pmichaud: So it may have been just before the release.
pmichaud release was 18th, iirc 13:52
jnthn Oh, OK
pmichaud (yes, time flies.)
jnthn Yes, you're right.
ruoso: OK, the point is that you probably need to be able to write a trait that applies to class-ish things.
ruoso jnthn, but what are "class-ish" things? 13:53
jnthn And it'd be nice to be able to do that without having to implement them per HOW.
ruoso: Probably, things declared with a package declarator.
But maybe that's too weak a definition.
ruoso so a mixed-in anon class doesn't match... 13:54
jnthn I meant semantically more than syntactically.
ruoso thing is, I thought the concept of "type object" was enough
jnthn Me too, but TimToady seemed to have the impresstion that the thingy passed to the trait was the metaclass rather than the type object. 13:55
Which is fine but then needs an answer do, "what do we write to capture that notion in the trait's signature". 13:56
ruoso: At the moment I think TimToady++ is having a re-think/review/re-design etc on traits though.
So fro now I'm just waiting to see what comes out of that.
ruoso yeah... as every corner of the spec the implementations didn't fully implement ;) 13:57
I think it comes with the territory
as we implement, we find the inconsistencies...
;)
jnthn pmichaud: Oh hey! The exit segfaults have mostly gone away...
(With an upgrade ot the current build/PARROT_REVISION)
ruoso: Yes, indeed. :-) 13:58
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pmichaud Pretty soon we'll all just be handwaving like TimToady++ :-) 14:06
Matt-W it's a new dance craze
DanielC just figured out that TimToady's nick is based on TIMTOWTDI
jnthn Heh. Well I hand-waved my way through implementing enums in Rakudo.
14:07 mj41 left
Matt-W and now look what's happened 14:07
People are USING THEM
jnthn Yeah, but anyone who attempts to ask me to explain how I implemetned it just gets told to read the source. I can't remember, nor do I want to. :-)
Which is unfortunate given the two failing tests I now have are...enum related. 14:08
Matt-W That, I think, is a clear indication that the implementation could've been done better :)
jnthn :-|
Matt-W: Heh, it was already done better than the last one.
Matt-W I remember
jnthn Matt-W: The main issue is that the spec seems to want enums to be lots of things all at once.
And is rather weak on how to hold those together coherently. 14:09
Matt-W hmm
irritating
pmichaud yes, I looked at the enums code yesterday and thought... "Huh?"
Matt-W they're rather more than just aliases for integers
they're members of a new type
and... other things too
jnthn pmichaud: Go read the spec and you'll probably think "Huh wtf" :-)
pmichaud jnthn: well, yes, I knew that part also.
rjh are they comparable to java "enums" 14:10
pmichaud they do tend to want to be magical dwim thingies
rjh which is little more than syntactic sugar around subclasses
Matt-W no I think they're quite different to java ones
jnthn rjh: No, it's possible for an implementor to understand the Java ones. ;-)
Matt-W I'm not quite sure what needs to be magical and dwimmy about enums
pmichaud lol
Matt-W I should look at the spec
pmichaud Matt-W: given enum Day <Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat> 14:12
we should get
rjh turning integers back into enum objects is evil
pmichaud my day $d = 3; say $d.name; # "Wed" 14:13
er, Day
rjh my $x = 0 but Yes;
:S
jnthn pmichaud: No, that one is Wed I think
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jnthn :-) 14:13
Matt-W pmichaud: hmm
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pmichaud now, the question becomes -- how does that 3 turn into a Day-type thingy? 14:14
jnthn pmichaud: That's one of the bits, I didn't yet figure out...
Matt-W Well if it was C++, I'd say that Day gets a constructor which takes an int
can we do things like that?
would that even work?
jnthn pmichaud: It may be along the lines of a type-check-that-actually-coerces kinda thing.
pmichaud Matt-W: except that "Day" isn't a constructor here
it's a type constraint
and... what jnthn++ just said
jnthn Because of course you can write those. ;-) 14:15
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Matt-W I suppose you ahve to be able to intrude into the 'is 3 a Day' check and say 'yes, yes it is, it's this one' 14:15
pmichaud type names on variables aren't coercers -- they're constraints
jnthn See subset AutoIncrement ;-)
pmichaud (they can be coercers, but they aren't by default)
jnthn Making them coercers is evil.
Matt-W yes
jnthn But do-able.
pmichaud my Str $x = 3; # type mismatch, not a coercion
Matt-W and I'm happy with that
I'm just used to having implicit constructors running in those circumstances 14:16
pmichaud right
but anyway, that means that Day has to act like a subset type
jnthn Anyway, this is just one of the areas where enums feel insanely dwimmy to me.
Matt-W in a way... I'm not sure why we want to be able to do that
pmichaud my Day $x = 18; # probably a constraint violation
jnthn Yeah, expect os. 14:17
*so
pmichaud but in addition to acting like a subset, it also acts like a role 14:18
because we can do:
my $x = 'hello' but Tue;
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pmichaud which means that $x.Day and $x.Tue become valid 14:18
jnthn OH NO DON'T MAKE ME RELIVE THE HORROR
;-)
Matt-W umm 14:19
do we?
why?
jnthn pmichaud: They're done mostly as roles.
pmichaud jnthn: right
rjh Matt-W: rakudo.org/2008/07/enums-and-the-bu...rator.html
pmichaud jnthn: I'm just saying it's a role that also has to act like a subset type that also has to act like ....
jnthn pmichaud: Yes, I know, which is why it was horrible to try and implement.
pmichaud agreed.
jnthn pmichaud: At the end of the day, ACCEPTS is what really decides how something type checks. 14:20
So we've got a hook there.
ish.
pmichaud which is what answers Matt-W's statement....
14:10 <Matt-W> I'm not quite sure what needs to be magical and dwimmy about enums
:-)
anyway, I'm afk for a bit 14:21
Matt-W okay so that's nice and crazy
I'm not sure why you'd want to use enums like that, but I'm sure somebody has thought of a very clever example
jnthn rakudo: role Foo { }; say Foo 14:22
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Foo()␤»
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rjh does this still work 14:23
rakudo: enum Maybe <No Yes>; my $x = 0 but Yes; say $x.Maybe;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn rjh: Apparently, yes. :-)
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <No Yes>; my $x = 0 but Yes; say $x.Yes;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«1␤» 14:24
rjh i am confused here
it's 0-valued, but has the enum type of an index of 1
jnthn How so?
I don't follow
rjh i seem to have that problem a lot :) 14:25
jnthn .Maybe is returning the current value.
.Yes and .No return true/false dpending on the current value.
(that is, only value of .Maybe )
so it's a bit like method Yes { self.Maybe === Yes } or something 14:26
Matt-W the enum-related value stuff is completely different
to the 0
rjh okay, but when you do my Maybe $m = 0;
it'll set it to No?
Matt-W you just get a 0 with some extra methods
rjh: yes
rjh that seems inconsistent to me 14:27
jnthn Matt-W: correct
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Matt-W it's not 14:28
in the second case, you make a new object which is a Maybe, initialised with a value of 0 (or somehow told that it should have the value of the entry in the enum corresponding with 0)
in the first case, you start with an Int object and add the Maybe stuff to it
rjh ok 14:29
Matt-W rather like you could add the function of a bottle of milk to your salt shaker using some duct tape
14:29 DanielC left
rjh perhaps the better word is 'usability nightmare' 14:29
but that comes with the territory with perl 6
so if you were to do "return 0 but Maybe"
would it set the enum type the same way as "my Maybe $m = 0"
jnthn It's the same difference between having a varible typed as a role vs mixing in the role. 14:30
rjh: The difference there is that you're mixing in.
Matt-W "0 but Maybe" is an Int with a Maybe mixed in
rjh right
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rjh I can see there is a difference 14:30
jnthn You're saying "I take the integer 0 and add another attribute storing the current enum value"
DanielC @seen mberends 14:32
lambdabot mberends is in #perl6. I last heard mberends speak 5h 30m 23s ago.
rjh Can you think of a situation where you'd want to do "0 but Maybe" and not have it get changed to Yes or No...? 14:33
I suppose the 'but' operation has to be general
jnthn Yeah, it is a general role mix-in mechanism. 14:35
Matt-W decides that saying 0 but Hash is probably rarely a good idea due to a lack of implementations 14:36
rjh lol
jnthn some(!$tobaco but Hash) 14:37
rjh so just for fun, how would I do "return 0 but Maybe" and expect to get No out the other end
jnthn *smoke
DanielC masak: You made a new branch of Rakudo, right? (to work on the modules thing). Is it published somewhere?
jnthn rjh: say $ret_val.Maybe.name
IIRC
masak DanielC: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/ver-auth-modules 14:38
rjh well .Maybe is good enough
DanielC *click*
masak DanielC: I've only branched so far, not made any cool commits or anything.
DanielC masak: Ok.
masak: What part of the source code will you be working on? I'm not familiar with the Rakudo source tree. 14:39
rjh rakudo: enum F<A B C>; say 0.F;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'F' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
masak DanielC: src/parser/ contains the grammar and actions of the compiler.
DanielC: the first step would probably be to make the use_statement action recognize versions and/or auths. 14:40
rjh rakudo: enum F<A B C>; say (0 but Maybe).Maybe.name;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in Main (/tmp/3aLSHuEuG8:2)␤»
rjh yay
DanielC masak: ok
masak rjh: care to submit a rakudobug?
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe<A B C>; say (0 but Maybe).Maybe.name;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤»
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rjh rakudo: enum Maybe<A B C>; say (0 but Maybe).Maybe.WHAT; 14:41
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
pmichaud masak: where "recognize" means...?
masak: parse?
masak no, it already parses them fine.
it means "take some action based on"
pmichaud oh, I can add a few more details. Currently there's a function called 'use'
so the next step would be to make sure that the vers/auth/other colonpair items are passed to that function
masak ah. I see. 14:42
pmichaud (there won't always be a function called 'use', but that's what we have atm)
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masak thanks for the pointer. I'll investigate that. 14:42
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pmichaud more directly, it might be nice to have a way of grabbing the colonpair items out of a <longname> parse subtree 14:42
masak aye. 14:43
pmichaud could be an action method, although I don't know if we want to invoke that method on every longname (as the majority of them don't need colonpairs)
maybe an action method only if colonpairs are parsed.
14:44 ejs1 left
masak why not just put that logic in the use_statement action? 14:45
rjh rakudo: say (0 but F);
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in Main (/tmp/Pt4uZk2g0i:2)␤»
rjh rakudo: 0 but F;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in Main (/tmp/reA32i3Q4j:2)␤»
14:46 hanekomu_ left
rjh masak: done, let me know if it sucks 14:47
DanielC pmichaud: You are the author of PmWiki? 14:48
pmichaud DanielC: Yes.
DanielC cool
I didn't know that.
masak rjh: looks fine. 14:49
rjh++
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <A>; say (0 but Maybe).WHAT 14:50
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <A>; say (0 but Maybe).Maybe 14:51
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«␤»
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <A>; say (0 but Maybe).Maybe.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
14:51 ejs left
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <A>; say (0 but Maybe).A 14:51
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«0␤»
rjh rakudo: enum Maybe <A>; say (0 but A).A 14:52
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«1␤»
Matt-W I'd have expected that second one to be 0 14:57
pmichaud what's the question being asked here?
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rjh I'm trying to come to terms with the behaviour of enums when mixed in as roles 14:58
pmichaud keep in mind that (I think) 0 but Maybe is not the same as Maybe(0)
rjh rakudo: say Maybe(0).WHAT 14:59
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub Maybe␤»
rjh oops
pmichaud (we don't support that form yet, sorry)
rjh ah
initially i assumed that was the point of "0 but Maybe", but a constructor-style method would make a lot more sense there
pmichaud "0 but Maybe" would mean 0 with the Maybe enum role mixed in. 15:00
rjh yeah
pmichaud But the Maybe enum role has its own attribute with the Maybe value. It doesn't use the 0.
rakudo: enum Maybe <A B>; say (3 but B) * 2;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«6␤»
pmichaud the 3 is still a Int 3 15:01
rakudo: enum Maybe <A B>; say (3 but B).B
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud but it has a Maybe value of 1 (B)
rakudo: enum Maybe <A B>; say (3 but B).Maybe
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«1␤»
rjh got it
thanks
but crucially, when you do my Maybe $m = 0; 15:02
you are assigning to the Maybe value, because that's it's actual type
*its 15:03
pmichaud I'm not sure about that (reading spec)
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pmichaud the spec doesn't explicitly say that my Maybe $m = 0 would result in the 0 being coerced 15:06
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pmichaud although one could reasonably infer that from 15:08
my day $d = 3;
which is talking about native types
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pmichaud so I'm guessing that's probably the case. 15:09
and enum type constraints are really coercers (that also check that whatever they're coercing is compatible with the enum)
i.e., through their ACCEPTS method 15:10
DanielC rakudo: "next cmd=a" ~~ m/ \s* next \s+ cmd \s* '=' \s* <alpha>/ 15:11
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: ( no output )
DanielC S05 says that m/ <.ws> next <.ws> cmd <.ws> '=' <.ws> <condition>/ is equivalent to m/ \s* next \s+ cmd \s* '=' \s* <condition>/ 15:14
pmichaud Yes, it should be. 15:15
DanielC Why is it that some times <.ws> means \s* and other times it means \s+ ?
pmichaud it means \s+ when we require that we're not in the middle of a word
for example
next <.ws> cmd / will match "next cmd" but not "nextcmd"
while 15:16
jnthn rakudo: enum Color <white gray black>; say Color.pick(2)
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«12␤»
jnthn rakudo: enum Color <white gray black>; say Color.pick(2)>>.name
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«blackgray␤»
pmichaud / next <ws> '=' / will match either "next=" or "next ="
more precisely
DanielC interesting
pmichaud / next <ws> . $ / will match "next=" or "next =" and "next b" but not "nextb" 15:17
DanielC What does the '.' (dot) do in <.ws> ?
pmichaud in the case of matching against "next=", the <.ws> acts like a \s*; in the case of matching against "nextc", the <.ws> won't match because it wants a space between any pair of word characters 15:18
(and so it acts like a \s+)
<ws> means "capture", <.ws> means "don't capture"
DanielC I see.
So in / next <ws> '=' / if there is a match the $0 variable will contain the spaces? 15:19
pmichaud no, it would be in $<ws>
named subrules capture to the hash interface
DanielC ok, so it's a different capture from ( )
pmichaud yes.
( ) capture to $0, $1, $2, etc.
15:20 donaldh left
pmichaud <foo> captures to $<foo> 15:20
DanielC ah, I didn't know that.
pmichaud (which is the same as $/<foo>, which is the same as $/{'foo'}
15:20 donaldh joined
DanielC But what if you have / <foo> bar <foo> / ? 15:20
pmichaud then $<foo> is an array of matches
DanielC ok
pmichaud same for quantified parens
DanielC thanks 15:21
pmichaud / (bar)+ / # $0 will be an array
DanielC that's new...
(I think)
It's a good idea.
With your example, can I do '$size = scalar $0' to find how many times the word 'bar' appears in the text? 15:22
pmichaud '$size = +$0'
DanielC ok
pmichaud we don't have a 'scalar' keyword anymore 15:23
DanielC ok
Thanks.
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pmichaud can also do $size = $0.elems 15:24
to be slightly more explicit
DanielC Can you do 0..$^0 too?
pmichaud yes, although that might give you one more than what you want
rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say 0..$a; # just curious 15:25
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«0123␤»
pmichaud okay, good.
normally would do
DanielC rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say 0..$^a;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«0123␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say 0..^$a; # just curious
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«012␤» 15:26
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say ^$a; # or even
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«012␤»
DanielC ah, that's the one.
So @^arr means the same as +@arr but ^@arr means (+@arr - 1) ?
pmichaud no, I misread earlier 15:27
@^arr would be a positional param, and what you wrote earlier woulnd't work
lambdabot Maybe you meant: arr yarr
pmichaud 0..^@arr means 0..(+@arr - 1)
it actually parses as 0 ..^ (+@arr)
15:28 barney left
pmichaud which means from 0 up to (but not including) the number of elements in @arr 15:28
DanielC rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say $^a;
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«a b c␤»
pmichaud $^a is a parameter shortcut
i.e., it's a placeholder param
(man, I can't type straight this morning, or get my terms correct.)
DanielC rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say $a; say $^a 15:29
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«a b c␤a b c␤»
pmichaud in this case rakudo is treating $^a as the same as $a. It should probably complain about a redeclared $a
you probably recognize $^a better from: sort: { $^a cmp $^b }
DanielC ah, yes... $^a is what you use in a sub.
masak DanielC: also, those [] are redundant.
DanielC Yes, I recognize it now.
pmichaud the [] aren't redundant. 15:30
(they used to be, but are no longer)
masak oh.
rakudo: my $a = [<a b c>]; say $a.perl; $a = <a b c>; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«["a", "b", "c"]␤["a", "b", "c"]␤»
pmichaud (rakudo still implements the "used to be" semantic, though
masak aye.
how will it be when it's no longer how it used to be (which it still is)? 15:31
pmichaud DanielC: anyway, ^(value) is the same as 0 ..^ (value)
so ^3 is the same as 0 ..^ 3 which gives the elements 0, 1, and 2
DanielC rakudo: say ^3 15:32
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«012␤»
DanielC interesting
pmichaud ^@arr is the same as 0 ..^ @arr which gives the elements 0, 1, 2, ... , @arr-1
DanielC Is $a = <a b c> supposed to give an error now?
rjh rakudo: my Undef $u; [$x.WHAT, $x.HOW, $x]>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "Undef $u; "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
rjh rakudo: my Any $u; [$x.WHAT, $x.HOW, $x]>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/62DbxdhcOt:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3166)␤»
rjh i'm an idiot 15:33
rakudo: my $x; [$x.WHAT, $x.HOW, $x]>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Failure()␤Could not find non-existent sub die␤»
pmichaud DanielC: $a = <a b c>; isn't an error, but it won't end up being an Array
DanielC ok
masak pmichaud: what's that "Could not find non-existent sub die" error there?
pmichaud masak: I have no clue. PerlJam said he was seeing those also.
masak I've seen it before too. 15:34
pmichaud oh!
masak rakudo: my $x; $x.HOW
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: ( no output )
jnthn masak: Gone in dispatch refactor I expect.
pmichaud I'm guessing that the P6object stuff is still looking for "die"(...)
masak ah.
pmichaud which disappeared when we switched HLLs
jnthn Right.
masak :)
masak submits rakudobug
rjh aren't Failure() objects going out of vogue
jnthn masak: It's already fixed locally...
masak jnthn: then you get to close one more! :) 15:35
pmichaud rjh: yes -- we still need to turn Failure into a role
jnthn Yeah I just lvoe the administrative overhead!
15:35 Lectus left
jnthn :-P 15:35
rjh anyways I was attempting to do Ruby's .methods
pmichaud masak++ is just trying to pad his bug resume
rjh i found it!
;)
masak I don't know if I should laugh or go on strike. :P
DanielC The ^ is surprisingly logical: ^foo == 0..^foo == 0..(foo - 1). That works whether foo is 3, $val or @arr... because (@arr - 1) is in scalar context.
pmichaud DanielC: correct. 15:36
In general, it's the "up to" operator :-)
DanielC ok
masak jnthn: if you dislike the administrative overhead, stop creating so many new bugs. :P
pmichaud s/bugs/features/
rjh rakudo: say $x.methods
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/q8licMqPP4:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3166)␤»
rjh rakudo: my $x; say $x.methods
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
jnthn rjh: it's meta 15:37
pmichaud rakudo: my $x; say $x.^methods
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«ACCEPTSdefinedhandledperl!exception!throw_unhandled␤»
DanielC rakudo: say (^ 3).perl
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«0..^3␤»
rjh rakudo: my $x; $x.methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
DanielC rakudo: say (^3).perl
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«0..^3␤»
rjh rakudo: my $x; $x.^methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«ACCEPTS␤defined␤handled␤perl␤!exception␤!throw_unhandled␤␤»
rjh thanks
pmichaud omg.... looks like postfix:<++> might actually be pretty close to almost being finished for real this time 15:38
rjh rakudo: Any.methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub die␤»
rjh i notice .^methods doesn't include itself? how do I get a list of meta methods?
pmichaud rakudo: Any.HOW.methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 2 params expected␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3166)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: Any.HOW.methods(Any.HOW)>>.say 15:39
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«does␤parents␤methods␤dispatch␤WHAT␤isa␤can␤add_parent␤add_parent␤add_method␤add_method␤add_attribute␤add_role␤compose_role␤register␤new_class␤get_proto␤get_parrotclass␤»
rjh neat
jnthn Any.HOW.^methods>>.say
rakudo: Any.HOW.^methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method '!.^' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤» 15:40
jnthn wtf
oh
pmichaud metaobjects don't have .^methods
rjh why not? ;)
jnthn Hmm?
pmichaud (they probably could, if Any.HOW.HOW == Any.HOW)
pugs_svn r26980 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] attributes should have a unique private_name (TBD)
r26980 | pmurias++ | instead of playing games with $?PACKAGE
pmichaud Any.^methods is the same as Any.HOW.methods
pugs_svn r26981 | pmurias++ | [re-smop]
r26981 | pmurias++ | added &PRIMITIVE::storage_name
r26981 | pmurias++ | started work on $!
r26981 | pmurias++ | sketched out in sig.t how Signature might be implemented
pmichaud or, in general 15:41
masak pmichaud: ping
pmichaud $x.^methods is the same as ($x.HOW).methods
masak: pong
masak pmichaud: oops, tab completion fail. :/
pmurias: ping
pmurias ruoso: could you look at re-mildew/sig.t
masak: pong
masak pmurias: did you see Leto's mail from earlier today?
pmurias: he mentioned you.
pmurias masak: haven't seen it... where was it sent to? 15:42
pmichaud gazes hopefully at his spectest run, noticing no failures yet. 15:43
masak pmurias: tpf-gsoc
don't know if it's public, but here: groups.google.com/group/tpf-gsoc/br...6e0767e2f1
jnthn gazes at his hopefully now being down to just one test file that has a fail he needs to fix before comitting the dispatch branch 15:44
rjh jnthn: looking forward to it :)
jnthn Good news: 1 failing test file. Bad news: it fails by segfaulting.
pmichaud afk for a bit 15:45
15:45 REPLeffect joined
pmurias masak: i don't think it's public 15:45
masak no, me neither. 15:46
pmurias masak: was the mail something worrying?
masak pmurias: he simply wondered why he hadn't heard from some GSoC students. and he listed you as one of them.
that seemed strange to me, since you are here a lot. 15:47
pmurias: but you should perhaps consider joining that list.
since it seems that at least Leto is trying to reach you through it. :)
15:48 eMaX left, xalbo left 15:49 payload joined, dakkar left 15:50 mizioumt left
jnthn oooh...I see potential for accidental collection of referenced stuff... 15:51
16:05 icwiener joined 16:07 Chillance joined
jnthn ...unfortunately, fixing that didn't fix the problem. :-( 16:08
16:09 abra joined
TimToady DanielC: actually, int $a/$b will not do long term, so I recommend writing int($a/$b) 16:12
the problem is that int is a type name, and so can't also parse like a prefix operator
dalek kudo: b9bfabc | pmichaud++ | src/ (8 files):
Fix postfix:<++> to be faster in general, and faster still for Ints.

In order to get this to work, we also:
  * Fixed ++/-- to auto-promote to Num/BigInt as needed
  * Changed !DEREF to check isa using a class object instead of a Key
  * Refactored all of the autoincrement/decrement operators
  * Fixed infix:<does> to now work on Integer/Float/String PMCs
  * Cleaned up .succ and .pred in Bool
  * Rewrote the .succ and .pred rules for Str in PIR (was C),
   made it extensible to unicode ranges, and removed no-longer-the-right-place
   increment/decrement vtable in Perl6Str
  * Removed the not-quite-working Range.clone method -- we can inherit
   from Object anyway.
DanielC TimToady: ok
masak pmichaud++
16:13 PacoLinux joined
TimToady and .split('') is better writting .comb now 16:13
jnthn rakudo: enum day <Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat>; say day.perl;
TimToady since it defaults to combing single chars
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«␤»
DanielC rakudo: say ("hello".comb).perl
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«["h", "e", "l", "l", "o"]␤»
DanielC TimToady: thanks 16:14
masak rakudo: 'hello world!'.words.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«helloworld!␤»
masak rakudo: 'hello world!'.words.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«["hello", "world!"]␤»
masak words++
TimToady rakudo: '/etc/passwd'.lines.say 16:15
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'lines' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
TimToady rakudo: '/etc/passwd'.slurp.say
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a: OUTPUT«Method 'slurp' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
16:15 jhorwitz joined
jnthn rakudo: slurp('/etc/passwd').say 16:15
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a:
..OUTPUT«root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash␤daemon:x:1:1:daemon:/usr/sbin:/bin/sh␤bin:x:2:2:bin:/bin:/bin/sh␤sys:x:3:3:sys:/dev:/bin/sh␤sync:x:4:65534:sync:/bin:/bin/sync␤games:x:5:60:games:/usr/games:/bin/sh␤man:x:6:12:man:/var/cache/man:/bin/sh␤lp:x:7:7:lp:/var/spool/lpd:/bin/sh␤mail:x:8:8:m…
masak o_O
TimToady rakudo: lines('/etc/passwd').say 16:16
jnthn oh noes safe mode is has a fail
p6eval rakudo 0b9c9a:
..OUTPUT«root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/bashdaemon:x:1:1:daemon:/usr/sbin:/bin/shbin:x:2:2:bin:/bin:/bin/shsys:x:3:3:sys:/dev:/bin/shsync:x:4:65534:sync:/bin:/bin/syncgames:x:5:60:games:/usr/games:/bin/shman:x:6:12:man:/var/cache/man:/bin/shlp:x:7:7:lp:/var/spool/lpd:/bin/shmail:x:8:8:mail:/var…
pmichaud changing the namespace symbol entries won't elimnate the methods :-)
masak oh noes!
jnthn hehe 16:17
Phew...got my segfault down from a 70 test script to a 1 liner.
pmichaud I've always hated the term "safe mode" in the PHP world, though.
It's misnamed. 16:18
jnthn Because PHP is never safe? ;-)
pmichaud It's really "crippled mode". In most environments, "safe mode" doesn't actually make things significantly safer.
jnthn Well, so far Rakudo's one seems to fir the name perfectly.
pmichaud kinda like barricading the door while leaving the windows open.
jnthn ;-)
masak goes swimming 16:19
ruoso pmichaud, re Any.HOW.HOW... nothing stops Any.HOW.HOW to be different from Any.HOW... it's just another object...
16:19 masak left
pmichaud Worse, working around PHP's "safe mode" often means that we have to do things that actually make the overall system less safe. 16:20
ruoso: I know -- that was kinda what I was saying (albeit not clearly)
that Any.HOW.HOW wasn't necessarily Any.HOW
ruoso ah... ok...
so metaobjects do have .^methods 16:21
pmichaud and thus Any.HOW.^methods would be the same as Any.HOW.HOW.methods (I think)
ruoso Any.^methods is Any.HOW.methods(Any)
pmichaud right.
ruoso Any.HOW.^methods is Any.HOW.HOW.methods(Any.HOW)
pmichaud yes, we agree.
ruoso cool
jnthn Me too. :-)
The problem now is just the way .^ is implemented. 16:22
pmichaud ??
pmurias ruoso: have you seen re-mildew/sig.t
pmichaud why is that currently a problem?
ruoso updating in this second
jnthn pmichaud: As a method !.^ on Object.
ruoso jnthn, .^ is syntax
pmichaud oh.
jnthn ruoso: yeah, I know
pmichaud that part 16:23
ruoso the compiler itself can implement .^foo to be expanded as .HOW.foo($invocant)
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I've avoid that anti-pattern elsewhere. :-)
ruoso: It could. Doesn't have to be done that way.
ruoso: But it may be what I end up fixing it to do.
TimToady at some point we've got to stop defining non-primitives :) 16:24
ruoso true... but notice the signature from Foo.^methods and Foo.HOW.methods differ
jnthn ruoso: Yeah, that mangling is why it was easier to do it the way it currently is.
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ruoso pmurias, wow... that looks nice 16:27
pmurias bjj& 16:30
16:30 pmurias left
TimToady ruoso: if you want new [] each time, instead of [] xx $n, use [] for ^$n 16:32
though I don't think rakudo implements list comprehensions yet
ruoso TimToady, yeah... pmichaud told me that already... I submitted my final version to the list 16:33
TimToady k, still backlogging :)
and I always figure it's better to be told too many times than too few :)
ruoso heh... indeed.. 16:34
16:35 mizioumt joined, nihiliad left
ruoso pmurias++ # mildew has "map" now 16:37
mildew: say "evalbot up?"
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 4, near "$LANG is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 5, near "$PKGDECL is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected
..at…
16:37 Zooix joined
ruoso nah 16:37
16:37 Psyche^ joined
Zooix Hi all ! I would like to try Perl 6 but I don't know where to start ! Can you give me some links (in French if you can, if not in english) to start on good basis with Perl 6 please 16:38
16:39 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner, jferrero left
DanielC Zooix: Do you have a Perl 6 compiler installed? 16:39
sbp Zooix: try in the sense of "install", or in the sense of "learn the language"?
Zooix sbp, both
DanielC, no
DanielC Zooix: rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
Zooix I've just Parrot 16:40
just*
DanielC Zooix: All Perl 6 compilers today are incomplete, but Rakudo is complete enough to make a lot of real programs.
sbp Zooix: to install, I did this:
$ git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git
$ cd rakudo
$ perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
Zooix: if you already have parrot and want to use it, you'd have to use another process 16:41
Zooix sbp, ok, thanks
sbp (as --gen-parrot means to get parrot for you)
DanielC sbp: It's easier if Zooix just uses the standard method.
Zooix I'll notice it cause I'm on WIndows now but I'll installa GNU/Linux distrib tonight
sbp rakudo is a (well, the) leading perl6 implementation; there are others
Zooix surely Zenwalk :D
thank you two ! Bye ^^ 16:42
16:42 Zooix left 16:44 armagad left
rjh does parrot/rakudo have localisation for built-in error messages? 16:48
jnthn rjh: Not yet, but I remember someone starting some work on that for Parrot. 16:49
rjh jnthn: cool, i don't think many other languages do it
pmichaud use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=43083&cid=68891 16:50
rjh does it still use 1.4 gigs of ram 16:52
pmichaud I don't know. Doubtful. 16:54
I suspect many of those gigs were due to extra PMCProxys or something.
what's an easy way to measure?
16:54 ejs joined
rjh ps? 16:54
pmichaud looks like 83 megabytes on my box, unless I'm reading it incorrectly. 16:56
rjh yikes
1.4gbs seems like an error on his part, or something incredibly strange 16:57
pmichaud no, he did 10x the number of iterations that I did
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jnthn pmichaud: So, segfault avoided. 17:03
pmichaud \o/
jnthn pmichaud: And a previously todo'd spectest fixed in the process.
pmichaud \o/ x 2 17:04
jnthn I'm running make spectest now. But that test was my final failure that I could see was related to my dispatcher changes.
Which means I can probably push them.
pmichaud good. did you merge in my changes yet?
jnthn No, that might have been wise before my spectest run actually...
jnthn cancels and does so.
pmichaud yes, I think so. 17:05
jnthn Did you bump parrot revision again?
pmichaud no.
not for that.
currently 39288
(or later...)
17:07 M_o_C joined
jnthn Whoa...that makes a difference in tools/benchmark.pl :-) 17:08
('cus the ranges are faster)
pmichaud I'm about to make another change to improve ranges even more 17:09
17:09 nihiliad joined
jnthn OK, spectesting with mine and yours. :-) 17:10
jnthn crosses fingers
pmichaud merged cleanly? that's a good sign.
jnthn pmichaud: Yes.
17:16 ejs left 17:18 nihiliad1 joined, nihiliad left 17:19 nihiliad1 left 17:29 DanielC is now known as DanielC_away 17:30 nihiliad joined 17:33 kane__ joined
jnthn \o/ 17:38
17:39 [particle] left 17:40 mizioumt1 joined, [particle] joined
dalek kudo: 711bd6d | jnthn++ | (14 files):
Large refactor of method dispatch, providing deferal, eliminating some levels of indirection in method dispatch and improving performance. Also starts a refactor of roles since various past tricks will no longer fly and we should fiddle less with Parrot's Role PMC, though much remains to be cleared up there so roles are a little messy for now.
 17:41
kudo: ff312ab | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
kudo: 03e90ad | jnthn++ | src/ (4 files):
Track down a couple of issues relating to enums and role punning, which were causing test fails, plus track down a bug with .perl on roles.
kudo: 2044332 | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
17:41 zippete joined
pmichaud I should review jnthn++'s changes, but I'm afraid of what I might see.... :-P 17:43
jnthn pmichaud: 1500+ line diff. ;-)
pmichaud: Role punning is The Mess now. I've got some re-org to do.
pmichaud AIIIIGH, MY IIIZ IS BURNIN!
jnthn hehe
P6Invocation and P6opqaue are where the interesting bits are. 17:44
pmichaud IZ READIN YR CODE THRU MY FINGERZ
no major changes to P6object, other than what's already in Parrot?
jnthn Nope. 17:45
pmichaud Cool.
jnthn Apart from
One less method that we poke into it.
Also
We subclass Parrot's Roke PMC
pmichaud less filling --> tastes great
the second version of that PMC is likely B-Roke :-)
jnthn I need to rename/move Role.pir out of src/parrot/ into src/classes/ now or something.
pmichaud anything that runs in the Parrot HLL namespace should stay in src/parrot 17:46
jnthn *Role :-P
pmichaud anything else should go out
jnthn Yes, the point is that it doesn't now. :-)
So we're fudging methods into one less Parrot thingy.
One thing that is awkward is "what to pun and what not to" 17:47
Example: we can't pun .ACCEPTS because if we do we break type checking.
pmichaud ummm, Role.pir is still in the Parrot HLL namespace? 17:48
jnthn We got away with this before because we only punned things sent through !dispatch_method so we could sneakily call whatever we wanted without it getting punned by not going through that.
It is?
Oh
It's adding methods to a PMC still. :-|
And all PMCs live in the Parrot namespace. :-/
OK, it has to stay there then.
It should be adding to the P6role rather than the Role ns now though. 17:49
pmichaud Correct
okay, I feel better now.
jnthn OK, good.
17:49 kane_ left
pmichaud maybe change Role.pir to P6Role.pir, though. 17:51
so it's not confused with the other Role.pir that is in the perl6 hll
jnthn Yes
I've got some do-less-class-checks-by-name things to do yet which should win some extra performance. 17:52
Plus other ideas to try. 17:53
So this is as much a start as a finish. :-)
payload i want to use a git-svn repo of parrot with rakudo... I currently hack the --gen-parrot to use git-svn and a custom directory... though it takes time, cause i am rel new to perl :)
pmichaud I'm looking at parrot's isa_pmc right now to see why it's so slow. 17:54
I'm wondering if we'll want a root_isa opcode to go along with root_new
actually, a dynop might be even better. 17:55
we could make a table of fast isa checks.
jnthn aye
isa_pmc should be just poitner arith, surely?
pmichaud HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 17:56
tell me another good one :-)
here:
jnthn for each parent { if it == the_thing_we_look_for { return 1 } }
pmichaud pmc_name = VTABLE_get_string(interp, lookup); 17:57
return parrot_hash_exists(INTERP, isa_hash, (void *)pmc_name);
jnthn !!
That sounds a little more expensive...
pmichaud sure, since we create a gc-able string on each lookup.
oh, it gets better. 17:58
jnthn ouch
pmichaud that's default.pmc:897
jnthn why isn't it just copy on write... :-S
pmichaud for Object PMCs, which first does the call I just gave
we then proceed to ask the Class PMC for it to check 17:59
it then does
classobj = Parrot_oo_get_class(interp, lookup);
(which is probably where our extra PMCProxys come from) 18:00
and then
we do the get_string trick all over again
and then
we recursively call isa_pmc for any parent classes
which does that call to Parrot_oo_get_class and get_string trick again for each parent class (and their parents) 18:01
there is one short-circuit on pointer arithmetic if we happen to hit the match directly
but otherwise we're comparing strings 18:02
doesn't the mro already have *all* of the parents in it?
(including their ancestors?)
i.e., we don't need the recursive call? 18:03
jnthn all_parents should contain...all parents. 18:04
Even if they are from different class universes
pmichaud right
18:04 renormalist joined
jnthn It should have at some point asked for them. 18:04
pmichaud so we're taking an O(n) operation and turning it into O(n^2)
jnthn Right.
18:04 renormalist left
jnthn With a bit factor to boot. 18:04
pmichaud with string lookups all the way
jnthn I had assumed that isa called isa_pmc... 18:05
pmichaud so when you get to something that is deeply nested
this *is* isa_pmc
jnthn No, I mean
pmichaud this *is* VTABLE_isa_pmc
jnthn VTABLE)isa (string) would have been implemented by a lookup + then VTABLE_isa_pmc
pmichaud even that doesn't help.
$I0 = isa $P0, ['Integer'] 18:06
jnthn Sure, not if isa_pmc is doing that crazy stuff!
pmichaud callsa isa_i_p
18:06 renormalist joined
pmichaud (actually isa_i_pc) 18:06
the problem is actually *in* VTABLE_isa_pmc
so, if we have an object of type Perl6Array 18:07
and we're doing an isa check on it
we end up doing
18:07 mizioumt left
pmichaud O( (Perl6Array, List, Any, Perl6Object, P6object, Object, ResizablePMCArray, FixedPMCArray) ** 2) 18:08
jnthn Yes, I follow, I'm just not being too clear.
pmichaud and if we happen to have a Perl6Scalar referencing the Perl6Array, we add that to the list above as well.
jnthn wonders what happens if we rip the crap out and just iterate a list of pointers
pmichaud I might do that.
But this is what I've been really complaining about when saying we do class membership checks with strings 18:09
it's deep in Parrot
(all the way down to VTABLE_isa_pmc, as you can see)
jnthn We're dynamic so we need to be able to somewhat _but_ when we already have something resolved from a name we should be able to use it directly.
Not turn things we can do fast back into named checks.
pmichaud exactly 18:10
even if it's not pointer arithmetic -- every unique type gets a type id, yes?
jnthn Also, the fact that we can ever get multiple PMCProxy instances disturbs me (I had never intended that to be a possible occurence).
Yes but the point is it *should* be doable by a pointer comp.
pmichaud sure, but the type id would "solve/workaround" the issue of when we end up with multiple PMCProxys, for now. 18:11
jnthn The PMC representing a class (be it a PMCProxy for a Class) should be canonical.
jnthn wonders why we aren't attaching the PMCProxy to a slot in the VTABLE rather than screwing around with namespace storage.
pmichaud well, namespaces still need to be able to map to their class.
even for non-PMCProxy items 18:12
jnthn Sure we can _cache_ it in the namespace too.
But at least hanging it there might help keep it canonical.
pmichaud anyway, I'll probably work on this a bit later
jnthn *nod*
It'd be worth it. Fast isa checks would help us plenty.
does-a too. 18:13
pmichaud Not only in Rakudo.
PGE does a lot of isa checks.
And I don't know what Parrot's MMD dispatch uses -- if it uses VTABLE_isa
jnthn erm, does.
It calls ACCEPTS
And does whatever that dos.
*does
pmichaud no, not Rakudo's MMD
*Parrot's* MMD
jnthn Oh, Parrots.
Who knows. :-)
pmichaud right
jnthn It doesn't even have a cache. ;-)
(For MultiSub)
pmichaud but if it's using _isa, then it would be also adding GC pressure
like, a tone 18:14
*ton
18:14 nihiliad left
jnthn right 18:14
18:14 amoc left
jnthn Speeding that up would get PAST::Compiler faster I guess? 18:15
'cus that uses Parrot's MMD.
pmichaud yes
and PGE, too.
and P6object
jnthn :-)
Speed. We needs it. 18:16
pmichaud Lunch. I needs it also.
I'm waiting to see how our spectest runs goes.
jnthn Ah, with my changes in? OK, here's hoping. :-)
pmichaud yes.
as of May 21, "make spectest" was requiring 51 minutes on my laptop. 18:17
as of yesterday, it was down to 25 mins.
with your dispacher improvements and the changes to postfix:<++>, it's now....
still running. :-P
18:19 abra left
pmichaud I'm guessing there's about another 10 mins to go on my box 18:19
oh, is assign.t much faster on your system now?
jnthn Didn't watch the spectests running too closely...can try it 18:20
pmichaud yeah, just try the one test
jnthn Still takes a while to get started but I think not as long as it sued to. 18:21
I didn't have a timing though...
pmichaud I went from 2:30 to :30 18:22
jnthn oh, it was far closer to the second of those 18:23
OK, dinner time...
cotto does per6 specify a standard deviation function? 18:25
TimToady not currently 18:26
would be pretty trivial to write one
pmichaud $mean = ([+] @array) / @array; 18:27
$std = sqrt( ([+] (( @array >>->> $mean ) >>**>> 2 ) )
or something like that.
spectest now 23m22. I has 2 failz. 18:29
lunchtime.
cotto Thanks.
It'll be fun getting used to thinking in terms of meta and hyper ops. 18:30
except when I have to go back to php 18:31
18:31 ejs0 left
literal spack: multimethod 18:32
how does this work again...
TimToady spack: multiple dispatch 18:35
18:37 nihiliad joined, amoc joined
[particle]1 buubot: spack multimethod 18:38
buubot [particle]1: S09-data.pod:1
18:38 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]- 18:48 amoc left 18:57 pmurias joined
pmurias ruoso: mildew's map is doesn't return an array yet 18:58
i just use it as a for
ruoso pmurias, ah... ok
TimToady is it lazy?
:)
pmurias ruoso: do you need any Cish things in smop to write a lazy map? 19:06
ruoso TimToady, speaking about lazyness... did you happen to see my post in perl6-l about threading and events?
pmurias, we need a proper definition on how lazy things need to behave 19:07
the post I'm talking about starts to address it
TimToady ruoso: when? if it was last week, I probably read it during my 6-day headache, and promptly forgot it 19:08
ruoso right... the subject is "RFC: Implicit threading and Implicit event-loop (Was: Re: Continuations)"
19:13 perlmongo left
ruoso TimToady, after some time, I realized every lazy list should be seen as a "continuation" of its own registered in the interpreter, so the main event-loop will raise them as their "buffer" is ready... 19:18
actually... every lazy object, not just list
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TimToady yes, this seems logical; one can view every gather as establishing an internal thread that know its "standard takeout" 19:20
19:20 donaldh joined
ruoso TimToady, if you consider gather/take as the basis for all lazynes 19:22
I tend to see it as just one of the syntaxes
I mean... every map, grep, for, assignment of lazy lists etc
should register themselves as "internal threads" 19:23
TimToady sure, you can view it like that too
needs to be very lightweight on context switching
ruoso TimToady, the easy part is that it being event-based, it only switch context when something happens 19:25
so idle threads cause no cost
I also mean that I wouldn't implement a preemptive scheduler, but rather have a "worker thread" pool 19:26
which eventually spawn new worker threads on a given condition (i.e. a "continuation" waiting for more than X miliseconds) 19:27
sjohnson i think "say()" being backported to perl 5.10.0 is an urban legend 19:31
TimToady it's only enabled if you ask for it
sjohnson never have i ever got it to work on that version of perl, despite everyone and their dog raving about how it's backported
*sad face*
waaah!
TimToady tried "use feature 'say'"?
sjohnson *sob*
payload \o/ my gen parrot uses git svn
TimToady or use 5.010; 19:32
sjohnson no, i suppose i shuold do that
TimToady: will try it out
Tene :( rakudo's 'use' updates broke foreign HLL loading.
TimToady considering Cursor.pmc is using it in 5.10
Tene Fixing...
ruoso TimToady, but you think the ControlExceptionWouldBlock, Observable, Observer thingies are ok? 19:34
TimToady have to go back and reread now that I'm sane, or less insane 19:36
can't right now, timesharing $job
19:37 meehav left
ruoso ok 19:39
sjohnson TimToady: have you ever met / heard of a man named Dr. Alan Paeth? 19:42
jnthn back from dinner 19:44
TimToady can't say that I have, but every time I learn a Japanese verb I forget a name 19:45
19:45 M_o_C left
TimToady and then I'll forget the verb without remembering the name... 19:45
19:46 unitxt joined
sjohnson he wrote the Paeth rotation algorithm that's used in things like adobe photoshop. , he was a teacher for me for computer studies. he programs in perl too, old school unix fellow. he has met bill gates and i was hoping you too :) 19:47
TimToady if anyone says they've met me, they're probably correct, regardless of what I say. :) 19:48
sjohnson maybe he was one of your toadies :) 19:49
19:53 clintongormley left
sjohnson is it true that people have emailed you / tracked you down so that they could have a hand with their Perl homework? 19:55
19:56 Scorp2us left, Scorp1us joined, masak joined
masak jnthn: ping 19:56
19:56 kane_ joined 19:57 kane_ is now known as kane[laptop]
jnthn mmaska: pong 19:59
erm
masak
masak almost. :)
your latest commit, in src/classes/List.pir on line 218. 20:00
just curious if it should be something other than "# XXX this is due to can giving dubious answers due to auto-thread/pun/closure creation"
jnthn No, it's a todo. 20:01
Just one I didn't yet decided who is going to be todone. :-)
erm, how
masak jnthn: what I mean is, the comment is a bit... unclear.
please try and read it yourself, and you'll see. 20:02
pmichaud you want proper grammar in our code?!?
masak :P
jnthn You are parsing can as a noun (name of an opcode) rather than as a transative verb?
If not, that's why it might sound bad. ;-)
masak ooh.
pmichaud maybe C<can> instead of just "can"
jnthn Yes. :-) 20:03
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masak I C<can> fix that. 20:03
jnthn I'm hoping that comment doesn't live too long anyways.
pmichaud ....and people wonder why we think sigils are important :-)
masak hehe
pmichaud it's pretty easy to tell that $can is a lot different from can :-) 20:04
dalek kudo: a0d09b3 | masak++ | src/classes/List.pir:
[src/classes/List.pir] C<> clarification
 20:06
jnthn When can can actually tells us if we can the comment can go away. 20:07
masak doesn't manage to parse that after two readings 20:13
pmurias masak: why can't everyone view tpf-gsoc archive?
masak pmurias: perhaps the discussions there are deemed private to gsoc participants in some way. I'm not sure. 20:14
pmurias: but you're doing a tpf-gsoc, so you definitely belong.
20:18 [particle]- left
masak }ï{ -- nice. 20:19
20:22 [particle]1 joined, DanielC_away is now known as DanielC
DanielC hi all 20:22
mberends DanielC: hi again 20:23
DanielC hey!
mberends: I've been thinking about the hash thing. Do you have a minute?
mberends yes, quite a few ;)
DanielC We can add a counter to the file name: Foo::Bar-auth:92de-ver:1.2.0--0 20:24
masak reviews viklund++'s proto changes
DanielC The counter doesn't mean anything, it's just a counter.
masak apparently, viklund has the pumpkin right now. :)
mberends :)
DanielC mberends: If Rakudo gets another module with the same name, just save it with --1 and so on.
s/same name/same name, version and auth hash/ 20:25
mberends a counter is no problem, in fact that was approximately what I was planning to discuss as a substitute for an :auth hash :)
DanielC So this can deal with arbitrarily many collisions.
mberends quite
DanielC Yeah, with a counter the :auth hash is no longer needed. That said, I wonder if it's still useful to identify different modules that come from the same author. 20:26
mberends no, not within Rakudo, only in library management utilities
DanielC If we keep the author hash, it is easy to get a list of all modules from the same author. I have no idea if that is useful for anything. 20:27
mberends not within Rakudo, only outside in other tools 20:28
it's more beneficial to keep Rakudo streamlined
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DanielC Yeah, but if the directory name doesn't include the auth: hash the other tools can't benefit (they'd have to actually read each module's metadata). 20:29
On the other hand, it probably makes sense to skip the hash until there is a proven need.
s/need/benefit/
mberends yes
DanielC So we start with Foo::Bar-ver:1.2.0--0 then? 20:30
(or something similar)
mberends yes, (something similar)
the exact format can still be ironed out, other principles come first 20:31
DanielC such as?
mberends a single directory scales very badly on many file systems
DanielC hm
Foo/Bar-ver:1.2.0--0 20:32
mberends directory Foo, filename Bar* etc
DanielC yeah
that's what I meant by Foo/Bar-ver:1.2.0--0
mberends the Perl 5/Java etc idea is too good to throw away 20:33
DanielC If you want to go crazy, you could even do Foo/Bar/1.2.0--0
mberends maybe, but it's not too crowded in the Foo directory most of the time 20:34
DanielC Yeah.
As a guideline, how many files/directories can Foo contain before it is a problem? 20:35
masak DanielC: as a guideline, Perl 5 has a directory structure that has worked very well over the years. 20:36
mberends it varies per file system, my intuition says a few hundred/thousand is a tipping point
masak DanielC: so if you don't do more directories than that, you'll be fine. :)
DanielC masak: ok
mberends the implementors of the squid cache had a good look at this issue, but maybe only on Unix
DanielC masak: But we might have to, if we are going to store multiple versions of the same module.
masak DanielC: the number of versions will not be very large, I think. 20:37
mberends when you configure squid, you set the directory tree width and depth 20:38
masak I don't see it exceeding three versions very often, and definitely not ten except in pathological cases.
DanielC Btw, in Perl 6 applications will have to use the same package manager as the cpan modules. Otherwise, how does the package manager know whether it's ok to delete Foo/Bar-v1.2.0--0 when you install Foo::Bar-v2.1.1 ?
pmichaud seems to me they ought to be the same manager 20:39
mberends the format chosen will apply to Rakudo, proto and all relevant utilities
pmichaud or at least build from the same codebase
20:39 icwiener left
masak is there a type of block that only runs after a loop has completed by falling out the bottom of its last iteration? 20:40
DanielC pmichaud: Not just the same code base, but also the same database. The package manager needs to know that there is something installed that depends on Foo::Bar-v1.2.0 so it doesn't remove it.
pmichaud DanielC: that's far more complex than I was envisioning.
I'd be surprised if the package manager tries to keep track of every Perl script on the system. 20:41
DanielC pmichaud: Yes. It's more complex than what I had in mind too.
pmichaud I'd say that would be a site policy.
DanielC But how else do you deal with dependencies?
pmichaud by failing when a dependency isn't met
or by having the package manager mark a module as "don't delete this"
or by having a site policy that says "never delete" 20:42
or ....
DanielC pmichaud: Imagine your software breaking every time you upgrade Foo::Bar...
"never delete" seems a bit like a sledgehammer approach.
pmichaud DanielC: in the most common case, your software probably doesn't want to request a specific version of Foo::Bar
usualy it will want to require a minimum version
if you have software that depends on a specific version of Foo::Bar, then you probably need somewhat more advanced package management than the default policy 20:43
DanielC pmichaud: But Perl 6 allows a software to request a specific version of Foo::Bar, therefore it will happen from time to time.
pmichaud agreed, which is why I think it becomes a policy issue
mberends pmichaud: where else should we study implementation of 'use' in addition to src/parser/actions.pm:385-443 (use_statement) ? 20:44
pmichaud mberends: src/builtins/eval 20:45
mberends: src/builtins/eval.pir -- sub 'use'
but that function will change quite a bit 20:46
you'll also want to look at 'require', which is what 'use' uses in order to load a module
mberends pmichaud: thanks :)
masak if we don't know the encoding of a string, can we really do ord() on it?
pmichaud yes. 20:47
each string knows its own encoding
masak aha. the only thing that's wrong is to assume that it's utf-8, or any other specific encoding. right?
pmichaud in Parrot, "ord" is not simply "give me the first byte". It's really "give me the first codepoint"
masak that's neat. 20:48
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masak mberends: if you have a bit of time, you could help me figure out what's wrong with my Druid web app. I tried to make it show SVG like your web server does, but it wouldn't comply. 20:49
DanielC pmichaud: We can delegate package management to a higher-level tool. We can offer a simple, dumb program that simply installs and uninstalls packages. Someone else is free to make a wrapper around that which uses a database to track dependencies.
20:49 szabgab joined
pmichaud DanielC: sounds good. 20:50
mberends masak: I read that. I never managed to inline SVG, although the spec describes a way. It may be a browser thing, to have to link to an SVG file rather like referencing a JPG. 20:52
masak mberends: I just pushed to druid at github. please try to run bin/web-druid and see if you too get the HTML page repeated inside the <object> inclusion. 20:53
mberends: there should be an SVG canvas there, but I'm doing something wrong. probably just a path somewhere. :/
mberends begins trying
masak when I surf directly to the path, it shows SVG.
I'm writing up Weeb 8 of Web. it would be nice if we got SVG to work before I post. :P 20:54
mberends Weeb is a nice unit of time ;)
masak it is. :)
it complements the concept of Tuits quite nicely. 20:55
FurnaceBoy is it like a Pomodoro? 20:57
20:57 kane[laptop] left
masak FurnaceBoy: is a Pomodoro round as well? 20:58
FurnaceBoy arguably. www.google.com/search?client=opera&...p;oe=utf-8
masak oh, I see it is. 20:59
FurnaceBoy :)
round as a tomato
i need tuits
desperately
masak they're in short supply. 21:00
21:00 justatheory_ joined
masak but new ones are being minted as we speak. 21:00
FurnaceBoy cool. 21:01
i'd pre-order... if I had time
masak FurnaceBoy: I'd recommend the book "Momo", but chances are you've already read it...
FurnaceBoy no I haven't. 21:02
sounds like something Bruce Mau did?
masak Michael Ende, actually.
FurnaceBoy ah. completely off track :)
masak of "Neverending Story" fame.
FurnaceBoy i'll check it out. how did it help you?
masak it's a very #perl6 kind of book, I'd say. 21:03
FurnaceBoy: it gives a wonderful perspective on time and the values in life.
oh, and it's basically childrens fiction, just like Neverending Story.
but still very enjoyable.
FurnaceBoy ok neat I have located it. www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResu...=0&y=0
masak that's the one. 21:04
mberends masak: the /board.svg itself is an empty 400x400 rectangle, both called directly or embedded in the home page. First signs are that the containers are all working but the contents are missing. 21:06
21:07 justatheory left
masak mberends: yes, it should be an empty 400x400 rectangle. but that's not what I see embedded. is that what you see embedded? 21:07
mberends the Epiphany browser (Debian) shows the 400x400 rectangle embedded 21:09
masak oki. Safari doesn't.
I'll try it in Firefox as well, hold on.
mberends Iceweasel (aka Firefox) ok here too. 21:10
jnthn Iceweasel? lol
masak huh. works in Safari now, too. 21:11
mberends: thank you! your extra eyeballs made the bug so shallow it disappeared. :)
FurnaceBoy :)
mberends always willing to help in this way :)
FurnaceBoy invites mberends to come over with his powerful tuits 21:12
masak it's more of a combination of tuits and weebs, I think...
mberends these tuits are so round, they keep falling off the table 21:13
FurnaceBoy hm. need to introduce deliberate imperfections
masak supresses a 'your mom' joke
FurnaceBoy fractal tuits?
21:13 REPLeffect left
FurnaceBoy lol 21:13
jnthn masak: I supress a lot of those...
21:13 kane_ joined 21:14 kane_ left
jnthn gets out his shaver and heads for some post-dispatch-refactor yaks. 21:14
pmichaud jnthn: okay, I improved the speed of 'isa' a fair bit, but also figured out why the default walks mro recursively
is there a way to look at class immediate parents, instead of all parents?
jnthn pmichaud: Do I want to know why? :-)
DanielC mberends: Ok, we picked a naming scheme. What's the next step? :-)
jnthn pmichaud: Yes, that's what ->parents is.
pmichaud jnthn: individual classes can override VTABLE_isa
jnthn pmichaud: Ah. 21:15
pmichaud so we have to go through their check
jnthn ouch.
mberends masak: web-druid is going to be brilliant! 21:16
pmichaud but that might also mean that we should only walk parents instead of mro
DanielC rakudo: package Foo;
p6eval rakudo a0d09b: OUTPUT«Unable to parse package definition at line 2, near ";"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1435)␤»
pmichaud (instead of all_parents)
DanielC I guess packages are not implemented yet.
masak mberends: glad you are into the concept. :)
jnthn pmichaud: Would an override saying "no" mean we stop looking?
Or should it?
21:16 eMaX left
masak mberends: still much left to do, but give me 8 uninterrupted hours of coding... 21:16
pmichaud it probably ought to mean we stop looking for that parent
jnthn Aww.
DanielC masak: What is web-druid again?
pmichaud if a parent is changing its notion of 'isa', should we be bypassing it? 21:17
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mberends masak: you can take a Weeb if you want 21:17
masak DanielC: ok, so Druid is a board game, with a bit of 3D in it.
DanielC ah, now I remember.
jnthn Could we use a flag on the class PMC to mean "no isa overrides"?
21:17 om454545445 left
masak DanielC: Web.pm is a web framework-toolkit-thingie. 21:17
DanielC: web-druid is Druid running on Web.pm.
DanielC I like web framework toolkit thingies.
jnthn pmichaud: That is, we work it out once that there isn't, and the rest of the times we just walk the mro...
masak jnthn: that sounds a bit like lolspeak. 21:18
jnthn I HAZ A OPTIMIZASHUN
pmichaud jnthn: why would it be bad to just ask the parents ?
masak DanielC: this web framework toolkit thingies looks a lot at other web framework toolkit thingies out there, and steals the best parts from them.
pmichaud (ooc)
instead of all_parents ?
mberends DanielC: next just a Simple Matter Of Programming, around the file references pmichaud++ mentioned earlier ;) 21:19
jnthn pmichaud: Because then rather than walking through an array we gotta then go recurse and so on.
DanielC masak: That's how the best tools are made. Perl is great precisely because it's willing to copy a good idea from someone else.
jnthn And check for overrides.
pmichaud I don't think the recursion is so bad.
jnthn Which I expect has a cost that for _most_ classes does not exist?
pmichaud well, we currently have the worst of both worlds, in that we're recursively checking every class' "all_parents" 21:20
ruoso decommute &
21:20 ruoso left
masak DanielC: so far we're copying Rack and Hpricot (from Ruby), Genshi (from Python), and Jifty/Catalyst (from Perl 5). and I probably forgot a few. 21:20
DanielC mberends: I think I missed the file references thing. I guess that you mean that someone has to teach Rakudo to look for a module in a certain location. Is that what masak is doing?
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, no wonder it sucks!
masak DanielC: yes, that's what I plan to do in the branch.
DanielC masak: I'll be very interested in your work. 21:21
masak DanielC: help welcome.
DanielC masak: I'm not a brilliant programmer. I'm not sure how much help I can be.
pmichaud note that "look for module in a certain location" really means "select a module from a set matching x, y, and z characteristics"
DanielC masak: The grammar stuff looks like Greek to me. 21:22
masak DanielC: as far as I can tell, you're quickly building up knowledge about the territory of this problem. keep doing that, and help me design the thing to work in Rakudo. that's all. :)
DanielC masak: I did find the use_statement method in actions.pm, but it was a bit over my head. 21:23
masak DanielC: actually, I might take some weebs to explain it to you. that might help me too.
DanielC masak: :-) I'll try.
sure
masak just going to finish this blog post. give me... 10 minutes.
DanielC ok
pugs_svn r26982 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] Signature is now part of CORE
pmichaud how many Weebs is 10 minutes? ;-)
pugs_svn r26983 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] added a test for assigning to an readonly variable 21:24
r26983 | pmurias++ | HashBvalue.STORE propagates exceptions correctly
masak pmichaud: depends on the length of those weebs, duh. :)
pmichaud looks like 10 minutes ~=~ 1 milliWeeb
jnthn length? I thought they were round?
masak no, that's tuits.
pmichaud there is no length in Perl 6. 21:25
masak *lol*
mberends Perl 6 has great depth
tuits have circumference
jnthn
.oO( there's no length...that's why we don't know how long it will take )
pmichaud lol! 21:26
pmichaud has another quote to add.
21:26 REPLeffect joined
masak "- How far to Christmas? - Don't know, Larry removed .length" 21:26
21:26 mib_75bhow86 joined
mib_75bhow86 hello 21:27
masak mib_75bhow86: hey there. welcome.
mib_75bhow86 thanks
masak mib_75bhow86: since you're from mibbit, please start by proving that you're not a bot and that your intentions are friendly. :P 21:28
mib_75bhow86 ya sure thing
jnthn hopes git just did the Right Thing with his rename...
masak git is a he? 21:29
FurnaceBoy fights bzr :(
jnthn masak: The rename was mine. ;-)
mib_75bhow86 do any of you have MKW?
jnthn masak: git is probably female, because I can't understand it at all...
FurnaceBoy lulz
masak groans
mberends mib_75bhow86: is that a disease, or Mark Williams Company? 21:30
masak mib_75bhow86: "MKW" == "Milky Way"? it's right outside your window!
mib_75bhow86 :)hello
FurnaceBoy Masak Keeps Watch
masak he does indeed.
FurnaceBoy mib_75bhow86, hello. why not change your nick to something more personal?
mib_75bhow86 no that a video game MKW=mario kart wii 21:31
FurnaceBoy Mild Kleptomania Warning
mib_75bhow86, you're in the wrong channel.
masak mib_75bhow86: you're not doing very well on the Turing test so far, I'm afraid. why don't you tell me a bit about Shakespeare poems?
mberends and don't nobody say W-H-O-Z
mib_75bhow86 k bye then
masak mberends: wut wrong wit whoz? 21:32
mberends /kick ma<tab>
dalek kudo: 6ed6997 | jnthn++ | (3 files):
Rename Role.pir to P6role.pir now it's adding methods to Rakudo's subclass of Parrot's Role PMC.
masak Matt-W: watch out!
jnthn mberends: Using /kick and tab completion considered dangerous.
mberends jnthn: in the wrong hands 21:33
the enter key's the problem
masak :)
mberends: "it's not the fall that's the problem, it's the sudden stop at the end" 21:34
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mberends yup. Mario Kart is quite nice on the DS, don't you think? 21:35
Muixirt what is wrong with that line: 21:36
parrot/parrot -O2 perl6.pbc ~/test/ackermann/ackermann.p6.pl
21:36 Whiteknight joined
mberends masak: I've forked yarn to mutilate it beyond recognition 21:36
Muixirt i get following error message:
masak mberends: sounds excellent. looking forward to your blogging.
Muixirt too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected 21:37
masak Muixirt: and the script is... where?
Muixirt in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)
jnthn Muixirt: Sounds like -O2 makes the program get the wrong answer quickly.
Muixirt masak, the coomans was invoked inside the rakudo dir
masak Muixirt: I see. 21:38
Muixirt: well, I don't have a test/ in my rakudo dir.
Muixirt masak, oh the p6 script lies somewhere in my home dir 21:39
masak Muixirt: it's hard to help you further, then. :)
Muixirt this works: parrot/parrot -R cgoto perl6.pbc ~/test/ackermann/ackermann.p6.pl 21:40
masak strange.
mberends Muixirt: please paste your ackermann.p6.pl file on sial.org/pbot/perl6
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lichtkind masak: viklund still seems quit? 21:41
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pasteling "muixirt" at 91.47.109.66 pasted "little perl6 test script" (30 lines, 607B) at sial.org/pbot/36963 21:42
masak lichtkind: I met him on Friday, when we went to the hackathon. I didn't have the precense of mind to remind him about the account, unfortunately... :/ I'll send him another nudge now.
lichtkind: out of curiosity, what is it that you plan to do on the wiki?
lichtkind masak: im not quit shure but i maybe make a wiki with small texts and lot of pointers for people who are interestet and come from outside 21:44
masak: for everything else we have already our internal perl 6 wikis for devs and perl heads
masak aye. 21:45
there sure could be some more information about November itself on the site.
21:45 Chillance left, mib_75bhow86 left
lichtkind of course 21:46
masak: fortunately i finished my p6tutorial yesterday so i have more mind resources now
masak sounds good.
mberends Muixirt: are you implementing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_Function ?
jnthn pmichaud: By the end of your enhancements, do you expect isa_pmc to be faster than isa (with the string)? 21:47
Muixirt mberends, yes
masak ok, I'll post this blog post, mail-nudge viklund, and then show DanielC around the use_statement action.
pmichaud jnthn: I think the string is still faster than the pmc.
DanielC \o/
lichtkind masak: is lexikon a english term?
DanielC lexicon
pmichaud isa_pmc is faster *if* you happen to pass it the class object directly
lichtkind thanks :)
masak lichtkind: what DanielC said.
pmichaud if you send it a string, that's next fastest
jnthn pmichaud: OK, I can send it a class PMC. 21:48
pmichaud the pain is constantly looking up the class PMC
lichtkind masak: yeah but dont forget my effort to make a perl 6 lexicon are consume much more time that the 8 part tut i just wrote
pmichaud if doing it from a dynop, not so painful. A bit painful from PIR.
jnthn OK, but if I have a situation where I can cache it...
pmichaud yes, caching it helps.
lichtkind cheers jnthn
masak lichtkind: I'm very well aware of that. I've been compiling a TODO for u4x over the past few months. 21:49
pmichaud anyway, I'm about to improve isa dramatically for us
jnthn lichtkind: hi :-)
pmichaud: Great. :-)
pmichaud I'll give an amount shortly.
lichtkind masak: whats that? 21:50
masak lichtkind: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38279
pasteling "muixirt" at 91.47.109.66 pasted "some error messages" (8 lines, 366B) at sial.org/pbot/36964 21:52
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mberends Muixirt: it works with -O1 and fails as you reported with -O2, making it likely to be a Parrot bug. It may be already known, but I think you would have to ask at #parrot on irc.perl.org. The code is fine otherwise, although there are nitpickers here who might want to rewrite it a little/lot. 21:52
jnthn Agree, almost certainly Parrot bug. 21:53
Muixirt ok
mberends, if you can come up with a better one :-) 21:54
masak comes swinging in on a rope 21:55
I sense some nitpicking to be done here!
mberends Muixirt: no, not me, I make nits for my esteemed colleagues to pick ;)
masak Muixirt: ($n>0) and ($m==0) don't need parens. 21:56
mberends Muixirt: see? 21:57
Muixirt as a challenge, the perl5 version is *much* faster
masak whoa! cool trick with the recursion depth!
Muixirt++
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masak Muixirt: oh, and if you ask me, 'loop($n=0;$n<4;$n+=1) {' is better written 'for 0..4 -> $n {' 21:58
ah, sorry, 'for 0..3 -> $n {'
...of course.
mberends took the words out of my ... nevermind
masak Muixirt: that way, you need predeclare only %test, because $n and $m are declared with the loop blocks themselves. 21:59
mberends rakudo: for ^4 X ^10 -> $n,$m { "$m,$n ".print } 22:02
p6eval rakudo a0d09b: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
masak mberends: even nicer! 22:03
mberends ruoso++'s idea 22:04
masak DanielC: you still there?
DanielC yup
masak ok, let's spend a weeb or two on actions.pm, shall we? 22:05
jnthn pmichaud: Elimited !DEREF. Little but wrothwhile performance win, especially for deleting code. ;-)
mberends sits up for the lesson
DanielC sure
jnthn (Using the dynop instead.)
masak so, we're at line 386 in actions.pm. 22:06
DanielC yup
pmichaud I'm getting a build failure.
DanielC my $name := ~$<name>;
masak yes. 22:07
DanielC I have a question already, what is ~$
jnthn pmichaud: Oh?
masak DanielC: the prefix:<~> makes a string out of a value.
jnthn pmichaud: From isa changes?
Or something else?
masak DanielC: it might help to refer to line 346 of grammar.pg also.
jnthn Remember to re-configure, I renamed a file.
masak DanielC: that rule calls the corresponding sub in actions.pm. 22:08
DanielC rule use_statement {
$<sym>=[use] <name><colonpair>*
<EXPR>?
{*}
}
Muixirt masak, thanks for the suggestions ... but it doesn't run faster :-)
masak DanielC: aye. and we might want to keep excessive pasting down on the channel. :)
DanielC I don't know Perl 6 well enough to understand this.
ok 22:09
masak Muixirt: I never promised that...
Muixirt ok
masak DanielC: hang in there.
pmichaud jnthn: from P6role.pir
jnthn pmichaud: oh wtf
masak DanielC: what you see in grammar.pg is a rule. it parses use statements.
jnthn pmichaud: Do you have the file? 22:10
Or is it missing?
pmichaud missing.
jnthn shit
moment
pmichaud (there's also tons of stuff happening around the house here, so I'm a bit distracted in case you hadn't noticed the delays on my responses :-)
masak DanielC: the rule says '$<sym>=[use]', which means "first, we expect the literal string 'use', which we'll store in $<sym>". 22:11
pmichaud yeah, it doesn't appear in the repo.
DanielC ok
jnthn pmichaud: pushed
pmichaud jnthn: got it 22:12
now building
masak DanielC: that <name> is the module, something like "Foo::Bar", and <colonpair>* is what we're interested in taking care of, :ver<> and :auth<> and such.
dalek kudo: f43c644 | jnthn++ | src/parrot/P6role.pir:
Sometimes, git doesn't do what you want. Add p6role.pir, which it lost in the rename but didn't show as not under version control when I did git status. How awesome.
 22:13
masak DanielC: since this is in essence a very rich regex, the asterisk means "zero or more"
pmichaud masak/DanielC: also, note that rakudo's grammar should probably be updated a little bit to match recent changes in STD.pm
DanielC masak: So there is already a <name> rule defined somewhere that takes are of Foo::Bar, yes?
masak pmichaud: noted. I haven't been following those recent changes.
DanielC: indeed. 22:14
pmichaud masak: neither have we, obviously.
masak DanielC: line 858.
pmichaud: :)
pmichaud Usually when implementing a new feature or fixing something I first check the specs and STD.pm for guidance
so that we don't get too out-of-sync
masak sounds sound. 22:15
pmichaud jnthn: perl6multisub compile fail
let me see if it's rakudo or parrot that is the problem.
masak DanielC: the <EXPR>? part, I don't know what that might be used for, but I guess we'll find out when we peruse actions.pm again. 22:16
DanielC: any questions so far?
pmichaud masak: it's because use statements take arguments
for example
DanielC masak: Not yet.
pmichaud use Math :trig
the ":trig" is an argument
note that this is different from
masak pmichaud: but isn't that also a colonpair?
pmichaud use Math:ver<1.2.1> :trig
masak ok.
pmichaud the colonpair is abutted with the module name
masak I see. 22:17
DanielC masak: The {*} means that the can be 0 or more use statements, yes?
pmichaud the arguments are separated by a space
masak DanielC: no, it means 'action here'.
mberends it's odd that use_statement calls <name> and no_statement calls <module_name>
DanielC ok
masak DanielC: note that there are {*} on every rule and token in grammar.pg.
pmichaud mberends: in STD.pm, 'use' calls <module_name>
mberends ok
masak DanielC: ok, so let's go back to actions.pm now. 22:18
DanielC masak: Yes, I see... every rule has a {*}...
masak DanielC: aye, it simply means "here's where we call the corresponding action sub".
DanielC ok
masak DanielC: now, in actions.pm, the $<name> var that you found before...
pmichaud jnthn: looks like my build fail may be due to recent parrot -- investigating further 22:19
DanielC masak: Ok, so {*} in a rule means "run the method with the same name as this rule".
masak DanielC: exactly.
DanielC k
masak DanielC: $<name> simply contains the parse tree for the <name> rule that we called in the use_statement rule.
DanielC: but we're only interested in the name itself, not the parse tree, so we stringify with ~.
DanielC ok 22:20
masak then, two lines down, we check that $name isn't 'v6' or 'lib'.
those two seem to be no-ops here.
ah, line 392 is the call to the 'use' sub that pmichaud talked about earlier. 22:21
DanielC At this point $name could be something like "warnings" or "strict"...
masak aye.
(except we don't have those two in Perl 6.)
but you got the idea.
DanielC Ok. 22:22
masak and the thing below '## Handle tags.' takes care of things like :trig, as pmichaud showed just now.
note that $<EXPR> is referred to here, so it all makes sense.
oh, look! we have '## Handle versioning' too! 22:23
DanielC use Foo::Bar:ver<1.2.3> :foo --> "foo" is an <EXPR> yes?
pmichaud the ":foo" is the expression
it's a pair
masak DanielC: yup.
DanielC ok
Do I need to know what @?BLOCK is? I don't know "@?" 22:24
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pmichaud DanielC: you might be able to figure it out though :-) 22:24
You know what @ is
masak pmichaud: the 'Handle versioning' part of the code, is it used for anything? can one see the effects of typing in a version in a use statement?
pmichaud masak: it's currently set up as being a named parameter to 'use' 22:25
masak pmichaud: ok, I'll defer my question to after having read the 'use' sub.
pmichaud I'm not sure it should be that way ultimately, but that's how it's set up at the moment.
I think the 'use' sub ignores it.
i.e., doesn't use it.
masak oki.
DanielC pmichaud: I know that @ means array... I guess that "@?" could mean "maybe this is an array" but that sounds really weird.
pmichaud DanielC: the ? twigil generally means "compiler variable" 22:26
DanielC ah!
masak anyway, if we want to add :auth, it should be fairly straightforward, if we already have :ver as an example.
pmichaud for example $?LINE means "what source line am I on?"
mberends it would also handle :auth or :anything as it stands
the name is not checked
masak mberends: oh! you're right.
pmichaud 'ver' is misnamed, currently
it should not be called 'ver'
masak :)
pmichaud it should be called whatever we call the string-of-colonpairs-that-follow-a-longname 22:27
pmichaud checks S11
mberends masak: TODO
masak aye.
DanielC What is PAST::Op ? 22:28
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pmichaud probably should be called "adverbs" 22:29
they're called adverbs in S11
masak DanielC: it's a part of a PAST tree, what the actions.pm program generates from the parsing.
pmichaud jnthn: something in latest parrot causes perl6multisub to fail. Bisecting.
masak DanielC: the PAST::Op is one of seven(?) types of PAST node in that tree.
DanielC: anyway, this whole use_statement sub amounts to calling the 'use' sub in the right way, yes? 22:30
DanielC AFAICT yes
masak DanielC: now, if you turn to src/builtins/eval.pir and line 141... you'll find that very sub. 22:31
DanielC There are bits I don't understand. Most notably, the PAST thing.
masak DanielC: the PAST tree is an intermediate representation, waiting to be turned into Parrot opcodes.
DanielC Wait... I need to catch up. Where in actions.pm does it call a sub? I see .ast, and .name
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jnthn pmichaud: Fail to compile? 22:32
masak hm, let me check.
pmichaud jnthn: yes, fail to compile.
jnthn Ouch.
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jnthn Parrot fail... 22:32
I'm actually just in Perl6MultiSub doing some bits...
mberends DanielC: actions.pm:436,438
DanielC finds line 141 of eval.pr
mberends: thanks, I see the use() call 22:33
masak mberends: oh! I had missed that part myself. :)
so... there are actually _two_ kinds of 'use' call here... 22:34
one stored in the PAST::Op node, and one made directly.
that kinda makes sense.
DanielC ok
pmichaud eventually they'll likely be the same, when we get BEGIN semantics built-in
(which I've already figured out how to do, just need to implement)
masak that also makes sense.
DanielC: ok, so now we're in PIR land. 22:35
pmichaud i.e., we'll be able to say BEGIN($past) and it will automatically compile+invoke the $past at compile time, and we still emite the $past in the compiled output (so it'll run at 'load' time)
masak pmichaud++
DanielC masak: Abandon Hope, All Who Enter Here...
masak DanielC: I never said it'd be easy :) 22:36
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DanielC :-) 22:36
pmichaud if it was easy, we'd be done already :-)
dalek kudo: def4e6d | jnthn++ | src/ (7 files):
Do a little optimization to the deref_objectref dynop, and then eliminate the !DEREF PIR sub in favor of it. Wins a modest but worthwhile performance improvement.
[particle]1 not me, i'd just code slower.
masak DanielC: actually, I see the 'ver' thing being referred to here, quite early in the PIR code.
line 151.
fuad hello
pmichaud we use 'ver'?
DanielC .local pmc ver, compiler_obj
ah, yes ver = options['ver'] 22:37
masak pmichaud: we use it to get :lang, it seems.
pmichaud yes.
that feels... wrongish also.
masak fuad: oh hai!
pmichaud: aye :)
fuad is someone knows sql here?:)
mberends steps forward 22:38
masak fuad: people might, but remember that this is #perl6, not #mysql.
fuad yes i know
i just asked
masak good.
fuad coz no one there knows
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mberends fuad: that's not even funny 22:38
pmichaud hola chromatic!
chromatic jnthn, you're missing semicolons at the end of SETATTR/GETATTR in P6 multi sub PMC. 22:39
masak mberends: actually, I thought it was a bit funny. :)
mberends (swedish humor)??
DanielC fuad: Go to #postgres, I'm sure someone knows SQL there...
masak mberends: might be.
jnthn chromatic: It just started needing 'em? 22:40
chromatic: heh, can add.
pmichaud chromatic/jnthn: yeah, that's kinda weird. The file compiles okay in r39298 :-)
chromatic NotFound changed the macro a few commits ago.
fuad mberends:sorry(
pmichaud ahhhhhhh
jnthn Any particular reason? 22:41
chromatic I think it's the right choice myself; the code reads better with the semicolons.
masak DanielC: I think I need to sleep now.
jnthn chromatic: Did it work with semis before?
masak DanielC: it was fun spelunking with you!
chromatic It didn't prohibit them; the macro expanded to do { ... } ;;
DanielC masak: ok, thanks for showing me around the code.
masak my pleasure.
jnthn chromatic: OK. I'm doing a bunch of edits to that file at the moment anyway...
chromatic Double semis aren't a problem. 22:42
No semis are.
masak sleeps
mberends DanielC: from here on, we have to stop reading and start writing ;)
22:42 masak left
DanielC :-) 22:42
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pmichaud jnthn: how long til you commit? I'm eager to see how my oo.c improves things, and I'm blocked at the moment. 22:43
DanielC mberends: Honestly, I think that writing a compiler is probably outside my abilities. I never learned about compilers or grammars, my degree is in math.
mberends degrees are not that relevant. 22:44
DanielC mberends: But I can tell you a lot about cryptography though :-D
chromatic I can nopaste a patch for you, pmichaud.
pmichaud c - that would help. I'm sure I could do it as well.
but a patch is easier.
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DanielC mberends: I know, but I've never done anything remotely similar to this before. 22:45
chromatic Having already patched it myself....
It ended up in #parrot.
mberends DanielC: the beauty of this little community is that we shall learn to do it within only a few Weebs.
DanielC mberends: What is weeb anyways? I saw masak say that before. 22:46
mberends DanielC: it was a typo for week, being thrashed to death. See backlog.
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DanielC ok 22:47
pmichaud chromatic: got it, thanks. 22:48
jnthn pmichaud: Not sure, it's a fairly big but in theory not too dangerous change. 22:49
mberends DanielC: we're all learning, and the knowledge available in #perl6 is fantastic
jnthn pmichaud: Feel free to apply.
pmichaud: If git complains I'll just do mf (mine full) to resolve.
DanielC mberends: :-)
pmichaud I'll apply if I get past "make test" 22:50
chromatic It pushed me past make test anyway.
mberends senses bedtime in .nl and waves to #perl6
pmichaud looks good to me so far.
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pmichaud anyway, what I discovered is that Parrot_oo_get_class would nearly always create a new PMCProxy on each call (which would happen from isa $P0, ['Something'] ) 22:52
Muixirt chromatic, parrots command line parsing might need some love, or the documentation thereof, and parrot -h seems outdated
chromatic I'm sure it is. What was most confusing for you there? 22:53
dalek kudo: 9421bca | pmichaud++ | src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc:
Add semicolons after GETATTR/SETATTR (chromatic++).
Muixirt chromatic, things like --CGP-core (see Ticket 639) 22:55
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Muixirt chromatic, you might have a look at sial.org/pbot/36964 22:55
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chromatic I can look at #639 tomorrow. Do you know if there's a ticket for your nopaste? 22:56
Muixirt there is no ticket 22:57
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lichtkind chromatic: cheers :) 23:01
23:02 ssm joined
pmichaud jnthn: I get a unicode-related fail now from the dispatch changes 23:03
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jnthn pmichaud: Oh? 23:03
pmichaud (I'm fine with regressing, as it's a bit ugly)
jnthn Ah, I have a build without ICU, so... 23:04
pmichaud the line
A.new().äöü()
ends up producing PIR like
jnthn But I can't think of much I'd have done to explode it...
pmichaud $P59 = $P58.unicode:"\x{e4}\x{f6}\x{fc}"()
jnthn Oh
pmichaud and IMCC can't handle that unicode:"..." there.
jnthn That sounds like a code-gen issue.
Or an IMCC issue.
All I'm doing is producing a PAST::Op node with pasttype callmethod. 23:05
pmichaud please please please don't make it a code gen issue. That will be.... ugly/complex
jnthn OK, I can be an IMCC issue.
pmichaud I guess we can work around it in PCT if need be, but Parrot really ought to be able to handle unicode string method names :-P
jnthn The only reason we didn't see it before is because we weren't using Parrot's dispatch syntax to actually dispatch.
pmichaud right.
jnthn Yes, agree. Parrot issue.
pmichaud The error message we get is
error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected USTRINGC ('unicode:"\x{e4}\x{f6}\x{fc}"')
jnthn bwah
Yeah, missed it because I don't run the ICU tests. 23:06
pmichaud right.
as I said, I don't mind regressing for now -- it's only two tests.
jnthn But a little surprised that Parrot complains.
pmichaud I'm not
jnthn OK, sure. One of us should file Parrot bug.
pmichaud I'll file ticket
jnthn Thanks
I'm tracking down a segfault in my MMD caching refactor.
pmichaud it seems like for every string constant that exists in IMCC we end up having to do this STRINGC -> USTRINGC conversion :-| 23:07
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jnthn (Trying to both decrease our startup time *and* get multi-method dispatch speedy as multi-sub dispatch.) 23:07
pmichaud lexicals. sub names. subid names. method names. named parameters. and now method calls :-P
fortunately I've filed enough of these tickets that I actually have a template for it :-P 23:08
jnthn lol!
lichtkind jnthn: what do you think about the idea do put a bit of life into november wiki and make a newbee friendly overview with lot of pointers 23:10
jnthn: because perl 6 wiki is not newbee friendly 23:11
chromatic I'll take a look at that IMCC problem tomorrow. I know how to fix them.
pmichaud lichtkind: maybe the github wiki instead? wiki.github.com/perl6/misc/
lichtkind: I can even create a repo for it if we want.
We could also create a githubpages repo to hold docs or other information 23:12
lichtkind pmichaud: tha main idea is to give november a purpose
pmichaud ah
that's fine with me also, if it can handle the load :-)
lichtkind pmichaud: what you mean by that?
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lichtkind its like the waterfall chart, real usage improve november which improves rakudo which improves parrot 23:13
which also improves perl 6 :)
pmichaud: ah now i understand yes november is slow 23:15
dont worry there will be shot texts :)
if can handle the workload :)
pmichaud chromatic: TT #730, when you get around to it. Thanks as always for shepherding these and saving me from OH MY GOD ITZ SO PAINFUL! 23:16
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chromatic Don't say I never do everything for you! 23:21
I should be able to fix these tomorrow. I need to finish an edit and rush out of here soon.
I may also get a grant proposal to you tomorrow afternoon. 23:22
jnthn \o/ 23:23
pmichaud \o/
jnthn chromatic++
pmichaud as you may have detected, we're rapidly in desperate need of that work. I'll push it along quickly.
preliminary new spectest timing after isa fixes and other additions from jnthn++: 21m51
as of yesterday we were over 25m 23:24
jnthn OK, the 10,000 multi-method dispatch benchmark now runs in 60% of the time it used to.
02 - 10,000 sub dispatches: 3.546252 23:25
03 - 10,000 multi dispatches: 3.280236
04 - 10,000 method dispatches: 3.749337
05 - 10,000 multi-method dispatches: 3.671236
That gets the common cases of dispatch on a fairly level playing field now.
(Before: 05 - 10,000 multi-method dispatches: 5.968184) 23:26
pmichaud oh, I should bump PARROT_REVISION
skids stops his make :-) 23:27
jnthn spectets hopefully
I'm tired, if I don't get a clean pass I'll debug tomorrow. 23:28
dalek kudo: b91e089 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to get latest isa fixes and other stuff.
 23:34
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jnthn Oh noes...I haz one fail. :-( 23:43
23:43 pmurias left 23:45 frew|work joined
jnthn lol I fixez it 23:46
23:47 kate21de left
Tene yay 23:47
jnthn spectesting again just to be safe. 23:49
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