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Set by Tene on 14 May 2009.
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JDlugosz anybody around? 01:09
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ruoso JDlugosz, I just replied your mail 01:15
JDlugosz Thanks, I just saw it arrive. (pass by reference) 01:16
ruoso JDlugosz, was it helpful? 01:20
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JDlugosz not looked yet... in the middle of a paragraph. 01:21
Writing is actually a difficult job.
I should go to fiction; less worry about getting things right. 01:22
ruoso is a social scientist... has an idea on how hard that job can be...
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JDlugosz How do you get the italic effect for speaking in the 3rd person? 01:23
ruoso /me something
DanielC likes to refer to himself in the third person 01:24
ruoso and the actual formatting depends on the client... I don't see italic for actions
(btw, you call that an "action")
JDlugosz wonders what a social scientist is doing with Perl
ruoso I was a Perl programmer before becoming a social scientist 01:25
JDlugosz Reading your note...
ruoso it was Perl that drove me away from computer science...
JDlugosz I agree that the capture contains the lvalue, e.g. the scalar bound to $a.
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DanielC ruoso: Perl drove you away from computer science? 01:25
JDlugosz But in order to make the parameter read-only, it must do something more. Just binding to the same thing would be "rw". 01:26
ruoso JDlugosz, it can simply be a lazy proxy that refuses to change the original value
DanielC, yeah... but that's a long story...
DanielC k 01:27
JDlugosz Yes, I go into that in great detail in my writup.
ruoso JDlugosz, lazy proxies are everywhere in Perl 6
JDlugosz But, it needs to be done. It may be optimized somehow, but semantically it is another object, a read-only proxy that sits in front of that scalar.
ruoso even %a<b><c> requires lazy proxies 01:28
in order to avoid premature autovivification
JDlugosz rw doesn't enclose immutables... it demands an lvalue.
ruoso if the parameter is not an lvalue, it will create oen
JDlugosz ref might be defined to enclose immutables, but I argue for something different. 01:29
ruoso rakudo: sub foo($a is rw) { $a += 1; say $a }; foo(1);
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«2␤»
ruoso rakudo: sub foo($a is rw) { $a += 1; say $a }; my $b = 1; foo($b); say $b;
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«2␤2␤»
JDlugosz The discussion last summer, in some depth, determined that rw demands an existing lvalue, and ref is soft and will take what you give it.
ruoso rakudo: sub foo($a is ref) { $a += 1; say $a }; foo(1); 01:30
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in sub foo (/tmp/pZxZF7RCSe:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/pZxZF7RCSe:2)␤»
ruoso JDlugosz, well... from what I recall, it will provide you an lvalue if an immutable was sent... but the spec knows 01:31
ruoso sleep & 01:33
JDlugosz "This [rw] requires a mutable object or container as an argument." S06. 01:34
"... or binding proxy ..."
"... otherwise the signature fails to bind."
binding proxy is my paraphrase.
That is really necessary for mmd to distinguish rw from not. 01:35
Otherwise, the rw would always match and silently not update the caller.
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JDlugosz It appears that rakudo is being generous, and you seem to be mixing up ref and rw (more or less). 01:36
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TimToady rw causes autoviv 01:36
JDlugosz Yes, autoviv.
I do recall that that was a major point of rw vs ref: the latter doesn't. 01:37
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JDlugosz Oh, does the rw parameter itself cause the autoviviation to take place THEN, or does it delay until actually written to? 01:38
Tim?
That's something I'm diagramming now, so I'd like to know for sure shortly, if it's not to much trouble.
TimToady at binding, I've always thought
JDlugosz OK, and with ref, it delays until used? That works out naturally. 01:39
TimToady but a partial but ultimately unsuccessful binding shouldn't, I guess
ref just passes the pointer willy nilly
JDlugosz partial and unsuccessful? Like @a[10][2][3] not able to create the nested elements... so it MUST leave @a unchanged? 01:40
TimToady but I suppose if you pass in an autovivifiable object, it can still autoviv internally
JDlugosz The attempt is noted and when fails, elimiates the signature from consideration and tries again without?
TimToady as in ($x is rw, NoMatch $y) can't bind $x, autoviv, and then fail to bind $y 01:41
JDlugosz ...internally? I don't follow.
TimToady ($x is ref) { ... foo($x) }; sub foo ($y is rw) {...} 01:42
JDlugosz Is the general idea being that autovivication is part of a "transaction" and binding is all or nothing?
TimToady yes, it's a sort of commit action to decide to autoviv, I expect
JDlugosz last example: of course. No different from $x=5 directly. 01:43
TimToady right
I see autovivifiable values as essentially the same as WHENCE values, Foo{...} 01:44
just the ... happens to know how to tweak the outer container
JDlugosz as I recall, the WHENCE is just the programmable/specifiyable way to autovivify.
TimToady it's a lazy initializer, to be used only after know when (autoviv) or where (BUILD) to init 01:45
*after we
JDlugosz Have you seen my pretty pictures?
TimToady some of them, but been pretty distracted recently by family health issues 01:46
JDlugosz Sorry to hear that. My own health issues doesn't affect my ability to type.
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JDlugosz I was also wondering, and posted to the mailing list, why the default passing is a read-only reference rather than pass-by-value. 01:47
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JDlugosz The "feature" of modifying along a different access route is something I would warn people against, not tout as a feature. And it interferes with optimizations. 01:47
Also, I think the invocant should be by-value. You DO NOT want to change the object out from under you in the middle of a method. 01:48
TimToady the intent is to substitute pass-by-value where appropriate via optimization, or pass-by-ref where it can be determined that nothing can change it
and mainly I wanted the default to be different from C++, where you have to put const everywhere
JDlugosz It is difficult to tell. If you pass a global, or pass the same object in two parameters, the function must assume the worst. 01:49
Every access must be a full read, and can't assume the contianer has not been assigned to somehow. It's like volatile in C++.
TimToady yes, well, we try encourage good style by making excessive mutability painful. :) 01:50
JDlugosz Older attempts in C/C++ (noalias) and new stuff in C9x (restrict), and features in FORTRAN, all give ways to say there are no extra aliases.
Ah... you don't want to force copying a contiainer like a large array. 01:51
TimToady our approach is mostly the Doctor-it-hurts-well-then-don't-do-that
JDlugosz I think that must be key to it. 01:52
TimToady we're okay with enforcing things that can be enforced easily
but like C, if you write sloppy code, you can get hurt
JDlugosz get hurt?
TimToady as in C if you depend on order of side effects when you shouldn't 01:53
I always loved the Ada spec
JDlugosz I think the Perl implementation should not assume things that are not part of the spec, like lack of aliasing. It must assume things will be aliased, because they might.
TimToady the technical term for "get hurt" was "erroneous"
JDlugosz always thought a debug build should randomize order of operations and stuff, to stress the code.
TimToady "if you do this, the compiler is not required to tell you it's wrong, but it is."
tough love :) 01:54
JDlugosz Changing the container by another path, when you have a readonly alias to it, is not wrong. It is a test case.
TimToady I don't have proof, but I suspect it's the only way to have a multi-paradimatic language while preserving the sanity of both the implementors and the users
JDlugosz it? 01:55
TimToady declaring some things as erroneous
you can tighten up the typing, driving the user's insane
JDlugosz and you assume that one of those groups has sanity to preserve.
TimToady or you can tighten up the analysis, driving the implementors insane
anyway, the default of readonly on params is intended to give options to the implementors 01:56
and that will probably involve declaring some things to be unspecced 01:57
JDlugosz Hmm, I wonder about the meaning of "erronious". It can't be "doesn't do what I said" because you are defining what you (incorrectly) said to not mean what you thought it did.
TimToady or erroneous
JDlugosz Hmm, I wonder if compiled code will end up using pessimism techniques to fall back from optomized version after checking assumptions. 01:58
TimToady usually in Ada it means that semantic inconsistencies cannot be guaranteed to be detected 01:59
well, there's a lot of work in that direction with tracemonkey and such
and we speculated a lot on it during early design
JDlugosz Remember our thread on perlmonks about "undefined behavior".
TimToady but we're not trying to rely on it
JDlugosz I think that in Perl 6, which is not a to-the-metal language like C, you should not be able to trash memory even when "wrong". 02:00
TimToady "this is defined to be undefined" :)
JDlugosz But that's an implementor's choice to make, I suppose.
But still, semantic decisions can be made that allow for more fail-safety. 02:01
TimToady "If you do this, you might regret it, and this document might be your only warning."
JDlugosz In particular, "wrong" behavior is still within the object model of the high-level language.
TimToady sure, we try to be failsoft when practical
JDlugosz Maybe use a symbol for "defined to be undefined". A symbol with no defined meaning. <G> 02:02
TimToady but failsoft in one spot can induce other failures elsewhere, so it's an undecidable problem in the abstract
JDlugosz Right; essentially a random peturbance to the information model, even if it is still a well-formed information model.
TimToady "If you do this, you should expect your rocket land in your vegetable garden."
*to land 02:03
JDlugosz Code assuming things were as-it-left-it will be wrong.
TimToady each paradigm has a different approach to consistency, I think
and sometimes they fight a bit
JDlugosz "... will reformat your hard drive." and log a bug that it doesn't, but only crashes, but never resolve that bug.
Khisanth hmm isn't leaving something unspeccedd pretty much the same as saying "don't do this"? :)
JDlugosz Khisanth: that's the game. 02:04
TimToady well, there's no way to write n! relationships when n is large
JDlugosz But, it also leaves room for additonal specifications to apply. Eg the compiler's own docs.
TimToady we aren't entirely sure how Perl 7 will end up looking, but the big point about Perl 6 is to make it sufficiently malleable to get where need to go easily 02:05
so we can fix things that go wrong in the design with the most localized language tweak possible without breaking things that work 02:06
JDlugosz E.g. whether the next generation decides to add "by value" or add traits to denote aliasing or lack of, it will be backward compatable and not a major change to the language.
TimToady that's the hope
declaring the use of a particular version is (we hope) nailing down the API forever 02:07
JDlugosz modules...
TimToady and Perl itself
JDlugosz Thanks for the guidance. I hope to have some serious docs with illustrations real soon now. 02:08
TimToady thanks 02:10
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Matt-W Morning 07:43
chronniff no, not the morning!!! gotta be up in 2 1/2 hours 07:48
Matt-W I've already been up for two and a half hours... 07:52
sjohnson how's it goin 07:53
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chronniff miserable 07:56
viklund Good morning!
chronniff ha 07:57
viklund ha
chronniff oh great, my intel f****ing intel jaunty driver is swapping out everything, because I minimized a terminal no less, wonderful!!! 07:59
gotta shutdown later
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moritz_ good morning 08:01
viklund: any objections to naming the subs in JSON::Tiny from-json and to-json (with dashes instead of underscores)? 08:02
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Matt-W sjohnson: it's going far too pollen-y 08:05
moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n".trans("\n" => '\\n', "\t" => '\\t'); 08:08
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«a\b\␤» 08:09
moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n".trans(("\n" => '\\n', "\t" => '\\t'));
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«a\b\␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n"
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«a b␤␤»
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moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n".trans(("\n" => 'N', "\t" => 'T')); 08:10
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«aTbN␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n".trans(("\n" => '\n', "\t" => '\t'));
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«a\b\␤»
Matt-W moritz_: that looks wrong
moritz_ rakudo: say "a\tb\n".trans(("\n" => 'NN', "\t" => 'TT'));
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«aTbN␤»
moritz_ Matt-W: it does indeed
Matt-W aaah
moritz_ it takes only the first replacement char 08:11
Matt-W then it looks rather less wrong :)
although slightly irritating
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moritz_ no, it's wrong that it only takes the first 08:11
I tried to describe the current behaviour
Matt-W I could easily imagine it specced to do that, but I don't see why it would be 08:12
moritz_ TimToady is sane, occasionally
Matt-W heh 08:15
a lot of the time, actually
it may not always be immediately obvious
viklund moritz_: none at all 08:16
I would have used hyphens if it wasn't for old habit 08:17
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viklund loves wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen) 08:18
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moritz_ viklund: I'll also rename 04-generate_json.t to 04-roundtrip.t, because that's what the test really does 08:32
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finanalyst rakudo: say (map {$_}, -1..3).perl; say (map {$_}, 3..-1).perl 08:34
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«[-1, 0, 1, 2, 3]␤[]␤»
finanalyst Is this a bug in Rakudo, or does the spec have something to say about downward moving ranges? 08:35
moritz_ finanalyst: it works as designed 08:36
you'd do that with 3..-1 :by(-1), but that's not yet implemented
finanalyst ah. i tried :by(-1) but it failed on me locally. thanx for the help
moritz_ you're welcome 08:37
rakudo: say "\n\t".trans(["\n", "\t"] => ['\n', '\t']) 08:41
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«\n\t␤»
Matt-W interesting
finanalyst rakudo: say (map {$^a + $^b}, ((0 .. 4) Z (2 .. 6))).max 08:42
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«10␤»
finanalyst say max { $^a + $^b },((0 .. 4) Z (2 .. 6))
rakudo: say max { $^a + $^b },((0 .. 4) Z (2 .. 6))
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "a" ~~ /<ascii>/ 08:44
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'ascii'␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block50 (/tmp/nYtjG8I98x:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/nYtjG8I98x:2)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "a" ~~ /<ASCII>/
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'ASCII'␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block50 (/tmp/OJ6CtM4ZfZ:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/OJ6CtM4ZfZ:2)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ord("\c[127]") 08:46
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«127␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ord("\c127")
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«127␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say hex(3) 08:47
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub hex␤»
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viklund moritz_: yes, good, that's a better name, to_json can produce invalid json need to fix that somehow 08:49
moritz_ viklund: I just implemented \n escapes etc.
viklund nice 08:50
moritz_ rakudo: /<-[\c0..\c127]>/
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: ( no output )
viklund btw, hex is spelled :16() in p6
moritz_ rakudo: say :16(33)
viklund rakudo: say :16(24)
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«51␤» 08:51
rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«36␤»
viklund ;)
rakudo: say :23(24)
moritz_ no, that's the other direcction
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«50␤»
moritz_ oh wait
it's the same direction as hex() in perl 5 does
viklund yes
moritz_ but not what I want :/
rakudo: printf "%x", 33
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«21»
moritz_ better
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moritz_ rakudo: printf "%04x", 33 08:53
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«0021»
moritz_ rakudo: say "möp".subst(/<-[\c0..\c127]>/, { sprintf '\u%04x', ord(~$_) }, :g) 08:54
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«m\u00f6p␤»
viklund yes 08:55
moritz_ rakudo: say "möp".subst(/<-[\c0..\c127]>/, { sprintf '\u%04x', ord(~$/) }, :g)
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: ( no output )
viklund heh
moritz_ rakudo: say "möp".subst(/<-[\c0..\c127]>/, { sprintf '\u%04x', ord(~$/) }, :g)
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«m\u00f6p␤»
moritz_ p6eval hiccup?
anyway, neither works locally here 08:56
viklund really strange
hold on, I'll try
try putting it in a file as well
moritz_ at least not on the result of a .trans
it says "Lexical '$/' not found" 08:57
rakudo: say "\nö".trans(["\n"] => ['\n']).subst(/<-[\c0..\c127]>/, { sprintf '\u%04x', ord(~$_) }, :g) 08:58
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«\n\u00f6␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "\nö".trans(["\n"] => ['\n']).subst(/<-[\c0..\c127]>/, { sprintf '\u%04x', ord(~$_) }, :g)
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«\n\u00f6␤»
viklund moritz_: I can run it from a file
rakudos cmd-line unicode handling is very buggy 08:59
moritz_ yes, I know that
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moritz_ viklund: if you pull json and run t/04-roundtrip.t you'll see what I mean 09:00
viklund ill do that l8r, right now im playing with $daughter 09:05
moritz_ have fun ;-)
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DanielC @seen mberends 10:31
lambdabot I saw mberends leaving #perl6 15h 2m 16s ago, and .
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moritz_ viklund: I tracked down the bug, it only happens in multi subs, not in ordinary subs 11:02
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moritz_ with latest (optimized) parrot I get a bunch of spectestail failures 11:48
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pmurias ruoso: hi 12:29
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ruoso hi pmurias 12:55
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ruoso pmurias, are you planning a blog post for the work of the last week? 13:00
pmurias yes, i think i'll do a all things done thus far blog post 13:01
ruoso that'd be cool
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pmurias ruoso: what should i work on now (other than on the blog post) 13:02
?
Jaaap Does anybody have any ideas how to parse python-like indented code in a perl6 Grammar? 13:03
pynie uses a magican indent_same and dedent but i don't know where that's coming from.
ruoso pmurias, do mildew compiles "multi foo ($a, $b, $c) {...}" already?
pmurias not yet
ruoso that seems like a good next target 13:04
Matt-W Jaaap: that comes from src/parser/indent.pir 13:06
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Jaaap Matt-W ah. thx. looking at it now. 13:07
Matt-W Jaaap: it seems to inject a bunch of helper methods into Pynie::Grammar 13:08
pmurias ruoso: a my multi foo (...) {...} creates a new multi and copies over the variants?
Jaaap Interesting... can i do that in a perl6 grammar too?
Matt-W you can add methods, sure
grammar is just a special kind of class
Jaaap and call them with <.method> or soimething? 13:09
ruoso pmurias, yes... TimToady said it can assume the candidate list is fixed
Matt-W Jaaap: It seems that way, but I wouldn't want to bet on it without trying it (or at least checking the spec) 13:10
ruoso Jaaap, the grammar has the notion of both horizontal space and vertical space... take a look at S05
Jaaap S05. ok.
looks like <\v> matches vertical whitespace 13:12
i wonder how trhat's gonna work
Matt-W I'm not entirely sure that would be helpful 13:13
Jaaap How would that even work, multi-line spacing?
Matt-W it would be things like the vertical tab character, I assume
rjh newlines 13:14
carraige return + linefeed
Jaaap ah like that.
bummer
so that is probably not the way to go. 13:15
I could still try injecting helper methods.
rjh Jaaap: what language are you parsing?
Jaaap ehm... my own. 13:16
looks a bit like python
ruoso pmurias, there are two new leaks in smop
Jaaap only tabs for indentations
rjh i hate you
Jaaap ;)
spaces are for nitwits ;-)
rjh restains himself 13:18
oh god 13:19
that's the worst typo ever
Jaaap lol
pmurias ruoso: fixing...
ruoso Jaaap, but you can also send parameters to tokens iirc 13:20
so you can send the "current identation level" as a parameter
Jaaap hmmm
lt me think about that
you mean send the parameter to the corresponding action method right? 13:21
ruoso the token is a method 13:22
it can receive parameters
pmurias ruoso: one think i'm not sure how to solve elegantly is how to determine elegantly if a multi should be created or only a new variant added
Jaaap ruoso: Oh like that? 13:23
ruoso pmurias, I think you can use STD cheats...
Jaaap is it also possible to modify the source (to remove on tab level)? 13:24
on=one
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pugs_svn r27081 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fix 2 memory leaks 13:25
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Jaaap perhaps it's easier if i pre-process the source and inject curlies. 13:30
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moritz_ btw I posted www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=771635 13:42
Matt-W wonders why Elf emits Common Lisp 13:45
Not that I'm complaining, that's pretty cool really :) 13:46
pmurias Matt-W: Common Lisp is quite fast
Matt-W I have never made the time to learn it
I probably should
pmurias ruoso: if i do my multi foo() {...}; multi foo() {...} does the second variant get installed in the lexical or package scope? 13:52
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ruoso pmurias, "our" means "create in this lexical scope, and create an alias in the package" 13:58
so it's just like
my multi foo() {...}; $?PACKAGE<&foo> := &foo; 13:59
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pmurias ruoso: multi methods are our by default? 14:04
ruoso I don't think so
methods are "has" by default
I think that applies to multi methods as well
pmurias and multi subs? 14:05
ruoso subs are our by default 14:06
I think that applies to multi subs as well
pmurias so in my first question it would be my multi foo() {...};our multi foo() {...} 14:07
TimToady yes, and the package variant is ignored by the dispatcher 14:09
because the multi dispatch only looks in lexical scopes
the situation is no different from if the second multi was lexically imported from another package 14:10
ruoso TimToady, there was a question few minutes ago about matching indentation level... 14:13
I thought that to be an interesting case for parameters to tokens 14:14
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ruoso but I'm not sure how it would look like 14:14
TimToady I'd use a context variable for remembering previous indent 14:17
but yes, could be done with a parameter
Matt-W Pynie does it with some PIR, but I suspect this might be due to 'not implemented in PGE' 14:18
ruoso TimToady, looking in S05 I can't find the syntax for using the parameter.... 14:19
TimToady it's just like using any other variable
ruoso you mean token foo ($indent_level) { ... } ? 14:20
pugs_svn r27083 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] adding variants using the multi foo(...) {...} syntax
TimToady <?{ $<myindent>.chars < $indent_level }>
which PGE won't implement yet, of course 14:22
ruoso cool...
TimToady token foo ($indent_level is context) would show up to an action routine, in theory
but if you do that, might as well be a context var on the staement list. 14:23
*statement
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ruoso can context variables be *declared* inside tokens? 14:24
TimToady stick a : in front of the my
there's lots of these in STD
ruoso cool...
TimToady :my slurps everything up to the next ;
ruoso then using a context var is really a better solution 14:25
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ruoso how tied gimme5 is to STD? 14:26
I mean...
TimToady that's why I'm working on viv
ruoso how possible would it be to use it to compile a different grammar?
TimToady gimme5 is only intended to translate STD 14:27
ruoso but if a grammar was written only as a subset of the features of STD?
TimToady I've got viv to where it can completely translate the operator prec parser from STD 14:28
then yes, sure, but some constructs have to be written in a way that helps gimme5
for gimme5 the # end grammar comments are not optional 14:29
for instance
ruoso ok... not that I'm going to do it now... but it looks interesting to have support to "use python" inside Perl 6 code...
TimToady and a :delete must be applied to a single piece of text without whitespace
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TimToady interesting as in the ancient curse 14:30
ruoso interesting as "just to say that I can" ;)
TimToady that's like trying to prove you can sneak a gun aboard a plane :) 14:31
moritz_ s/gun/snake/ ;-) 14:32
frew you might get killed trying?
ruoso or trying to prove the network is insecure, and getting arrested by that...
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cognominal ho, an Hergé Hesse :) 14:34
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diakopter de/relurks 14:41
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pmurias diakopter: hi 14:44
ruoso: i once used gimme5 to compile a sm0p grammar 14:45
sjohnson hey d00dz 14:50
pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
pmurias sjohnson: hi
moritz_ hi pmichaud
pmichaud: do you plan to merge the ins brach before the release? 14:51
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moritz_ (I tried to test it today, but failed at building a debian package out of parrot; maybe I'll try it later in a chroot) 14:51
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PerlJam good morning 14:58
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pmichaud moritz_: I was hoping to merge the ins branch before release, but I don't think that's going to happen. 15:06
There are known problems with the branch on at least two platforms, and it's presently an all-or-nothing merge
i.e., building from an installed parrot doesn't co-exist with building from a build-tree parrot
and the things that need fixing in parrot are sufficiently hairy that it's probably not a good idea to add them one day before the parrot release 15:07
(and I'm handicapped by not having any of the failing platforms handy on which I can test.)
DanielC Rakudo has regular releases, right? When are they? Parrot is the second Tuesday of every month. 15:09
Tomorrow's Parrot release has a bugfix that I'm interested in. Which version of Rakudo would include it?
pmichaud Rakudo's releases are ~ 2 days after each Parrot release. 15:11
So, Rakudo will have its next release on Thursday.
Matt-W Rakudo doesn't include Parrot
DanielC Matt-W: Yes and no. It downloads parrot.
pmichaud Rakudo includes Parrot by reference.
which version of Parrot are you interested in?
DanielC Tomorrow's.
They fixed a bug with is_deeply()
pmichaud The Parrot version of is_deeply? 15:12
DanielC yeah
pmichaud Because Rakudo uses its own, not Parrot's.
DanielC They just added a patch so that it works correctly with hashes.
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hse hi 15:13
DanielC o/ hse
pmichaud The is_deeply that Parrot provides is not the one that Rakudo uses.
hse where can i get tcp-tunnel
?
DanielC pmichaud: I'm pretty sure I'm talking about the Parrot one.
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pmichaud DanielC: okay, no problem. 15:13
DanielC: I'm sure you _are_ talking about the Parrot one; I just haven't figured out how that relates to Rakudo. :-) 15:14
DanielC pmichaud: I'm writing stuff in PIR, and I use rakudo/parrot/parrot
hse any perl master here? 15:15
TimToady only perl6 masters
hse lol
DanielC I guess I could install a separate Parrot somewhere else...
hse: I think TimToady knows Perl fairly well.
TimToady I know nothing about tcp-tunnel 15:16
hse is it possible to pm him?
DanielC hse: Seriously, you probably want to go to #perl
hse thanks
pmichaud DanielC: you're writing plain PIR, or inline PIR?
15:16 hse left
DanielC Go to #perl. That's where you'll find the best people to help you with tcp-tunnel. 15:16
plain PIR 15:17
mberend's idea.
pmichaud okay, then yes, the parrot is_deeply is the one you want.
DanielC y
pmichaud anyway, the larger point is that Rakudo doesn't currently tie itself to Parrot releases -- it tends to target intermediate development parrots.
DanielC ah.. 15:18
pmichaud for example, the current version of Rakudo is not using the last released version of Parrot
DanielC I sort of assumed that it did.
rindolf TimToady: who introduced the -i flag? Was it you?
TimToady: did perl get it from GNU sed or the other way around?
pmichaud in fact, the current version of Rakudo won't even work with the last released version of Parrot
DanielC pmichaud: :-( 15:19
rgs rindolf: I think that GNU sed got it from sed
TimToady I did. I didn't know sed had it too...
pmichaud DanielC: it's just an indication of how much Rakudo is driving Parrot development, I think.
rindolf rgs: so it's a standard flag?
DanielC pmichaud: The goal for the module-lib project we are working on is that eventually it'll go on Rakudo. So maybe we shouldn't use is_deeply()
rgs at least it's in BSD sed
15:20 donaldh left
pmichaud DanielC: as an example -- the last release of Parrot was on May 19. By May 22, Rakudo could no longer build against the May 19 released version of Parrot. 15:20
(because Rakudo needed some features that were added to Parrot between May 19 and May 22.)
15:20 donaldh joined
DanielC ah 15:20
sjohnson TimToady: have you seen Hikaru no Go?
TimToady
.oO(or if I did know it, I've forgotten that I knew it...)
 15:21
DanielC pmichaud: So, it's not that Rakudo uses old versions of Parrot, but new ones?
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pmichaud DanielC: the version of Parrot that Rakudo expects is kept in build/PARROT_REVISION 15:21
at this moment, Rakudo expects to have Parrot r39531. 15:22
DanielC tries to check what version of Parrot has the is_deeply fix
pmichaud in another window I'm currently testing to make sure that Rakudo will work against Parrot's HEAD (r39571) 15:23
DanielC has no idea what version of Parrot he wants
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pmichaud because when Parrot cuts its June release tomorrow sometime, we want to make sure that Rakudo can build against it. If not, then we'll have a situation where a released Rakudo can't be run against a released Parrot. 15:23
DanielC *nod* 15:24
TimToady sjohnson: いえ。
pmichaud DanielC: at any rate, when Parrot cuts its release tomorrow, Rakudo will immediately bump its expected version to use that release. 15:25
(assuming Rakudo can build/run against that version)
DanielC ok
Question: is mberends a Rakudo developer?
pmichaud if my build/test is successful now, then in a few minutes Rakudo will be bumping to use r39571, the current Parrot HEAD. 15:26
Yes, mberends is a Rakudo developer. He did Temporal.pm, and a lot of work on IO::Socket
DanielC Ok. Good. I'm counting on him to know how to integrate the module-lib into Rakudo.
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DanielC Assuming that your build/test is successful and Rakudo bumps to r39571, how would I update my Rakudo to get the new Parrot too? Do I just run "Configure.pl --gen-parrot" again? 15:28
pmichaud Yes. 15:29
rindolf TimToady: I don't see -i here - www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/000095...s/sed.html
DanielC thanks
rindolf TimToady: so I guess GNU sed inherited it from Perl.
TimToady belike
bbl & 15:31
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Sark23 hello, is here someone perl core developer ? 16:46
moritz_ Sark23: Perl 5 or 6? 16:47
Sark23 i have a question to char on perl5. is the perl5 char a linear memory like in C,c++ or is this a struct datatype with pointer next and prev ? 16:48
moritz_ Sark23: try #p5p on irc.perl.org 16:49
Sark23 thanks
ruoso @tell pmurias I think you forgot to add a file 16:54
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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lichtkind is here some guy who is involved in planet perl 6? 18:12
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dalek kudo: 0d5221a | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to get latest parrot changes.
 18:52
payload oh i have to recompile 18:53
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pmichaud rakudo: say "가".ord 19:14
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«44032␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say "나".ord 19:15
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«45208␤»
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pmichaud pugs: say 1..4:by(0); 19:17
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Named argument found where no matched parameter expected: (by,Ann (Pos (MkPos "/tmp/oFajEQXWkn" 1 13 1 14)) (Val (VInt 0)))␤ at /tmp/oFajEQXWkn line 1, column 1-15␤»
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pmichaud rakudo: say chr(229) ~ chr(0x263b); 19:22
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p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«\xE5☻␤» 19:22
pmichaud looks like rakudo hasn't updated yet.
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pmichaud I think tomorrow will be my first Rakudo day. :-) 19:28
(for Vienna.pm)
dalek kudo: d3185be | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 404 files, 11535 passing, 0 failing
kudo: ba09b27 | pmichaud++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
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yary perl6: (my @random_numbers).push: int 10.rand for ^3; say @random_numbers.join: ' '; 19:36
p6eval elf 27083: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/sSRL8BlFSu␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: (my @random_numbers).push: int␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_red…
..pugs: OUTPUT«3 4 3␤»
..rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Lexical '@random_numbers' not found␤»
yary Methinks pugs wins in that statement- anyone think that bug looks familiar? Or should I submit? 19:37
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yary Or is the scope of "my" really limited to inside parenthesis? 19:39
PerlJam that would be weird IMHO 19:40
pmichaud rakudo doesn't understand the ':' syntax, I think. 19:42
also, "int" isn't a valid prefix op. 19:43
rakudo: (my @random_numbers).push( int(10.rand) ) for ^3; say @random_numbers.join(' ');
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«Lexical '@random_numbers' not found␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my @random_numbers; @random_numbers.push( int(10.rand) ) for ^3; say @random_numbers.join(' '); 19:44
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«3 3 9␤»
pmichaud anyway, I don't think the scope of the 'my' should be limited to the inside parens.
viklund moritz_: I worked around that $/ in multi bug for json 19:48
you give up to soon after hitting a bug in rakudo ;)
pmichaud I think .trans probably needs a substantial rewrite.
viklund it was a problem with subst as well 19:49
something happens inside a multi
pmichaud That one also. :-)
viklund but the workaround was calling an ordinary sub from the multi to do the work
pmichaud the issue is that .trans and .subst aren't providing a $_ to match against. 19:50
viklund not anywhere?
pmichaud not that I know of.
at least, that seems like the likely source of the problem.
viklund yes, indeed 19:51
pmichaud rakudo: say map { .chr }, 65..90
p6eval rakudo 77f9d7: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
viklund compiling...
pmichaud right.
PerlJam who runs p6eval? Surely rakudo could be compiled in a sandboxy environment and then a link switched at the last instant. 19:53
pmichaud one would need to also switch the links to the .so files
PerlJam s/a link/the links/ :) 19:54
pmichaud rakudo: say map { .chr }, 65..90
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ␤»
yary simpler test case-
pmichaud rakudo: say chr(229) ~ chr(0x263b);
yary rakudo: (my $x = 1); say $x;
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«å☻␤»
rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud \o/
yary hmm
rakudo: (my @x= 0..1); say @x; 19:55
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«01␤»
pmichaud oh, I know the problem.
it's the declaration of the "my" as modified by the "for"
rakudo: my $x = 1 for ^3; say $x;
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«Lexical '$x' not found␤»
yary ++pmichaud 19:56
pmichaud the "for" modifier is imposing a block on what it modifies.
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yary So the next question is, does it make sense for a lexical declaration in an implied block (no curlies) to have a lifetime limited to that implied block? 20:01
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PerlJam What does S04 say about it? (if anything) 20:02
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pmurias yary: what do you mean by an implied block? 20:17
lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
pmurias yary: generally only curlies introduce a new lexical scope 20:18
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pmichaud rakudo: $_ = 'hello'; .say for ^3; say $_; 20:18
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤hello␤»
pmichaud pmurias: the ".say" has an implied block around it. 20:19
yary Rakudo's behavior suggests that a "for" modifier at the end of a statement which includes a declaration gives a lexical scope to that declaration, and then the variable is invisible outside
sorr fo rthe verbosity
pugs_svn r27084 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] 20:20
r27084 | pmurias++ | fix bug in AST::Seq (TODO check & fix other nodes)
r27084 | pmurias++ | multis install a Multi if it's the first time in a block
pmurias yary: verbosity is better then ambiguity
pmichaud it's very possible that implying a block on the lhs isn't correct, and that we need to be making a temporary $_ or something. 20:22
at any rate, the $_ that is used on the lhs of a for modifier isn't the same as the $_.
at any rate, the $_ that is used on the lhs of a for modifier isn't the same as the $_ outside of the for modifier.
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yary That much (about $_) I understand from p5... haven't digested S04 yet, but I'll submit this as a bug for folks to ponder and accept/reject 20:26
viklund is very happy since he found a keymap with 􏿽xAB and 􏿽xBB
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pmurias there is a "Remeber, no implicit block scopes." sentence in S04, although in a different context 20:28
pmichaud Yes -- a bit later it talks about the handling of $_ and the for modifier.
It says to get to the outer $_ one uses OUTER::<$_>
which will be a little weird, since it means that OUTER::<$foo> would refer to a different scope from OUTER::<$_> if used inside a for modifier. :-) 20:29
TimToady that's true for any lexical in any lexical scope 20:30
if $_ is declared internally and $foo externally
pmichaud TimToady: We're looking at the case of:
say $_ for ^3;
TimToady yes, I've been thinking abou tit
pmichaud okay.
TimToady the spec only requires a private copy for $_ currently 20:31
pmichaud correct.
TimToady doesn't require a block
pmichaud I think the use of a block might've been a Rakudo shortcut.
TimToady we could say it is implciit
but...
we can't really allow $^a to pay attention to implicit {}
pmichaud interestingly, I'm not sure that it does in Rakudo's case.
rakudo: say $^a for ^3; 20:32
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected␤in Main (/tmp/jBX8Gm96fv:0)␤»
TimToady well, could use a better error :)
pmichaud sure.
rakudo: { say $^a for ^3 }('hello');
p6eval rakudo ba09b2: OUTPUT«hello␤hello␤hello␤»
moritz_ std: say $^a for ^3;
p6eval std 27084: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
pmurias couldn't we just throw away the for modifier? ;)
viklund for what? 20:33
TimToady this is also all related to $a ?? my $bar !! my $baz 20:34
thunks aren't quite blocks
perhaps we should say that they actualy are blocks, but you can't do anything that relies on seeing explicit curlies, like my or $^a 20:37
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TimToady so my $x if 0 would be prohibited as an implicit { my $x } if 0 20:38
yary I would like to think that after seeing "$a ?? my $bar !! my $baz" the compiler would create a lexical scope for ${bar ^ baz} (excuse my syntax- exclusive or on the names referenced), which at run-time would collapse to a single variable name... 20:43
and at runtime, generate an error if the the "wrong variable" is referenced
but I think that's a lot to ask for
TimToady lexical variables don't do "run time" 20:44
Tene MY::{random_string()} = 'lol';
TimToady is illegal
yary then be permissive and allow both, as they are both declared in the same scope, and run-time value of $a doesn't matter
TimToady you can't modify MY at run time
well, that's what it does right now, but there are problems with silently doing what the user didn't expect 20:45
it's be better to just come out and say "you can't declaring things in an implciit conditional block" 20:47
except in English
yary That's a presumtion about programmer expectation that I take exception to. 20:48
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yary No curlies == no block, my assumption 20:48
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TimToady do you expect foo() for ^3 to leave $_ clobbered afterward? 20:50
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yary In the case of "$a ?? my $bar = 1 !! my $baz = 2; say $bar, $baz;" I expect it to compile, perhaps with a warning, and when run to either see "1" or "2" printed with a warning about use of an undefined variable 20:51
Now, thinking about foo() for ^3...
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yary of course I don't expect $_ to get clobberd by a statement modifier 20:54
TimToady which implies that $_ is somehow local
and since we don't really like local the way Perl 5 does it, it tends to argue that $_ is implicitly lexically scope to the statement 20:55
or more specifically to the body of the loop
*scoped
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TimToady but why does that implicit block get its own lexical scope when my $x if 0; doesn't 20:56
if there's a logic problem in how the programmer is thinking, you'd rather catch it at compile time if possible 20:57
std: 42 ?? my $a = 1 !! my $a == 2; 20:58
p6eval std 27084: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Assignment not allowed within ??!! at /tmp/ILTLx5z53c line 1:␤------> 42 ?? my $a = 1 !! my $a == 2;␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix (with precedence tighter than item assignment)␤ infix stopper␤ standard stopper␤
..terminator␤ trait␤…
20:58 PZt joined
TimToady std: 42 ?? 1,2,3 Z 4,5,6 !! 1,2,3 X 4,5,6; 20:59
p6eval std 27084: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Precedence too loose within ??!!; use ??()!! instead at /tmp/youtfIQcwT line 1:␤------> 42 ?? 1,2,3 Z 4,5,6 !! 1,2,3 X 4,5,6;␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix or meta-infix (with precedence tighter than item
..assignment)…
TimToady things like that, we already catch
21:00 Chillance left
yary Let me step back and ask, is rakudo creating a lexical block on the LHS of a "for" modifier becuase that's the right thing to do, or becuase no one can think of another way to create a lexical $_ with the proper lifespan? 21:02
pmurias yary: it's the easiest thing 21:03
s/thing/way 21:04
yary And is "(my @x).push('foo') for ^10; say @x;" something that should be disallowed, or should it work?
21:04 pmurias left
lichtkind moritz_: back? 21:04
moritz_ lichtkind: yes 21:06
TimToady I think that falls into the category of "overly clever", and fragile
(my @x = ()).push would break it 21:07
if the simple thing happens to be rightish, I'm not inclined to bend over backwards to make it more abusable 21:08
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yary programs become less readable, if I can't rely on scope of a "my" variable I declare to last until the "}" I programmed... 21:16
TimToady false 21:17
you just wouldn't be allowed to put my there
my still scopes to }
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TimToady s/false/contrary to fact condition/ :) 21:18
yary s'OK
TimToady detection is an interesting problem though... 21:20
pmichaud yes, it's very difficult to detect.
TimToady it almost needs to be as late as the emitter saying "I want to init this 'my' but there's no appropriate pad visible" 21:22
certainly it's post parse
yary If p6 has something like p5's "Safe" then detection is possible. The scope on the left uses a context that disallows compiling any lexicals.
talking out my butt now, as we say around these parts 21:23
TimToady in the sense that "my $x if 0" isn't illegal until after it's thunkified the expr on the left
pmichaud well, the problem with that is
{ my $i = $^a * 2; ... } for ^3 # should still work
unless that block gets treated like a reference and not an immediate block. 21:24
TimToady sure, but that's because the { started a new scope that is opaque to the autothunker
pmichaud right, but going from what yary suggested (context disallowing lexicals) -- we'd have to reallow them within a block.
yes, doable
21:25 nihiliad left
pmichaud but you're correct that it wants to show up at the emitting stage somehow 21:25
at least, that's where PCT and Rakudo would need to place it
TimToady could probably be done at reduce action time, with sufficient up-propagation of my-ness
well, something I can play with in STD 21:26
and then we'll see how abusive the examples and test suite are 21:27
this is one of those things that would be easier in an attribute grammar 21:29
bbl & 21:32
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nErVe can I run a ----- :: system ("mptopdf *.mp"); 22:48
Tene nErVe: eh? 22:49
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Tene nErVe: in Perl 6, 'system' has been renamed to 'run' 22:50
nErVe: Yes, you can use wildcards in a 'run' invocation.
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nErVe well i tried but it does not work 23:04
Tene nErVe: can you explain more about what you're doing?
nErVe scsys.co.uk:8002/29807 23:05
Tene Okay, you're using Perl 5. #perl would be a much better place to get support for that. 23:07
nErVe jsut one last question
how do i update to perl^ 23:08
now that I am here
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Tene Perl 6 is still in heavy development. If you're interested, you can look here: rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 23:08
nErVe ok 23:10
btw wat does it mean
when some one asks me to set a path for mptopdf
? 23:12
Tene nErVe: it's probably not in your $PATH variable
So if it's in /usr/local/bin, try: system('/usr/local/bin/mptopdf /tmp/*.mp'); or whatever 23:13
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nErVe tried that already does not work 23:21
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Tene nErVe: what errors does it report? what happens when you try to run the script? 23:23
nErVe well its runs and run and runs..does everything except the last mptopdf 23:28
so I have to finally kill/stop the process
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