»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sjohnson on 21 August 2009.
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pmichaud rakudo: class A { }; multi sub infix:<+>(A $a, $b) { 5 }; say A + 1; 00:16
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
pmichaud \o/
rakudo: class A { }; multi sub infix:<+>(A $a, $b) { 5 }; say (* + 1).(A); 00:18
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
pmichaud \o/!
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dalek kudo: 81d6216 | pmichaud++ | (6 files):
Move prefix:<-> into the setting.
 00:32
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pmichaud rakudo: say -(3|4) 00:40
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
quietfanatic Is there a way to make a tail call in p6? 00:43
like goto &sub in p5?
pmichaud yes
(looking it up again in S06)
nextsame and nextwith 00:44
quietfanatic But that just calls the next multi, doesn't it? 00:45
pmichaud right
I guess not, then.
(I was probably mis-remembering the 'tail call' bit.) Although perhaps S04 has something.
quietfanatic Oh wait, there may be a method form
cognominal I suppose that's up to the compiler to decide
quietfanatic rakudo: sub a {say 1}; sub b {&a.nextsame; say 2}; a() 00:46
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
quietfanatic rakudo: sub a {say 1}; sub b {&a.nextsame; say 2}; b()
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
quietfanatic huh
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quietfanatic nextsame and nextwith do make tail calls, but apparently not to an arbitrary routine. 00:49
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dalek kudo: d0b88cf | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
Check for some more needed Parrot files during Configure.pl .
 01:21
kudo: 586076e | pmichaud++ | (5 files):
Move prefix:<~> into setting.
jnthn pmichaud++ # nice work on operating overloading! 01:23
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cognominal jnthn++ : blizkost now compiles on Mac OS X 01:43
pmichaud jnthn: thanks :-) 01:44
jnthn: even nicer, I ended up just doing it all in p6 settings instead of any special PIR-to-Rakudo conversions 01:45
jnthn: even more bizarre: on many of my spectest runs, the p6 versions end up being _faster_ than the PIR versions. Which means you've either done a great job on dispatch speed for Perl6MultiSubs, or we don't do so well at dispatch of Parrot MultiSubs, or both :-) 01:46
(not much faster, just slightly faster. More importantly: NOT SLOWER)
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pmichaud I know that infix:<==> is defined as +$a === +$b and infix:<eq> is defined as ~$a === ~$b 01:54
how about the other relational ops -- are they defined similarly in terms of infix:<===> or infix:<cmp> ?
in particular, infix:<le>, infix:«<=», etc? 01:55
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TimToady depends on where you use the circularity saw 02:04
pmichaud so, implementation-dependent?
(for now, if nothing else?) 02:05
TimToady code that depends on where the circularity saw cuts is probably erroneous
or at least non-portable
pmichaud yeah. 02:06
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pugs_svn r28091 | carlin++ | Fixed XHTML validation error 02:14
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dalek kudo: aab4bf9 | pmichaud++ | src/classes/ (3 files):
infix:<===> should not be defined in terms of infix:<==> or infix:<eq>.
 02:46
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s1n pmichaud: will you be there on saturday? 03:13
pmichaud I plan to be there, yes.
s1n did you see the tentative plan?
i scraped it right from your last talk
pmichaud I didn't see it yet, no.
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pugs_svn r28092 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec] Fudge some now-failing tests that don't quite make sense to me 03:21
r28092 | (exactly what Perl 6 feature is being tested?)
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frew__ looks forward to getting rakudo compiling again 03:23
I haven't had it working since the changes to allow it to build from an installed parrot
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pugs_svn r28093 | lwall++ | [irclog/camelia] unbox the bug, quietfanatic++ 03:24
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dalek kudo: f351f60 | pmichaud++ | (4 files):
Move infix:<ne>, infix:<!eq>, infix:<!=>, and infix:<!==> into setting.
 03:28
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dukeleto quietfanatic: parrot has something called ".tailcall" 03:50
dukeleto is taking blizkost out for a drive 03:51
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mikehh rakudo (f351f60) builds on parrot r40835, make test / make spectest (up to r28093) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++) 03:57
rakudo (f351f60) - t/spec/S05-match/capturing-contexts.rakudo - TODO passed: 14
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dukeleto "blizkost fails to compile on darwin/perl 5.10.0" (97 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17710 04:07
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pmichaud frew__: rakudo doesn't build for you? 04:37
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dukeleto jonathan: ping 04:50
quietfanatic dukeleto: Ah, that yields it possible, though it'd take a Q:PIR. 04:52
And of course it can't be delegated to a sub. (Unless it's a macro)
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pugs_svn r28094 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Unfudge a passing test for RT #64946. 05:20
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pmichaud use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39543 # latest Rakudo day report 05:38
JimmyZ pmichaud++ 05:43
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pugs_svn r28095 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Unfudge passing test for RT #68680. 05:46
dukeleto pmichaud: latest parrot installs the files that you wanted with "make install" instead of "make install-dev" 05:48
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pugs_svn r28096 | carlin++ | [Differences.pod] Removing what I think is a superfluous =head1 and possibly the cause of the double-bullets on the HTML converted page 07:16
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azawawi hi 07:24
dukeleto seen jonahtan
azawawi: howdy
wayland76 @seen jnthn 07:25
lambdabot jnthn is in #perl6. I last heard jnthn speak 6h 2m 1s ago.
dukeleto msg jnthn i have created some issues for blizkost at github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues
@msg jnthn i have created some issues for blizkost at github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues 07:26
lambdabot Not enough privileges
dukeleto darn
azawawi shouldnt rakudo's "perl6.exe --version" report the actual release and date instead of "This is Rakudo Perl 6."?
wayland76 phenny: tell dukeleto to use you
phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when dukeleto is around.
dukeleto ?
phenny dukeleto: 07:26Z <wayland76> tell dukeleto to use you
azawawi moritz_: pingo 07:27
wayland76 dukeleto: You have to specifically tell things to phenny, or he doesn't respond
phenny: tell pmichaud azawawi thinks that perl6 --version should report the actual version too :) 07:28
phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
dukeleto phenny: tell jnthn to check his messages in #parrot 07:29
phenny dukeleto: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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Su-Shee good morning! 07:29
dukeleto Su-Shee: hola
wayland76 consider's Gandalf's respnse to "Good morning", and keeps his mouth shut :) 07:30
azawawi wayland76: im thinking of releasing a Six upgrade installer for strawberry's "Almost Six" on a weekly and release-based timeline...that's why i may need perl6 --version
Su-Shee wayland76: :)) 07:31
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carlin There is an open ticket about --version 07:52
rt #68752
sjohnson carlin thanks for the bot a few days ago 07:58
carlin sjohnson: that's alright :) 07:59
sjohnson is it okay if i saw the bot was cute?
carlin why was that? 08:00
ihrd hi there 08:01
I created Perl6 modules list on the perl6 wiki www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dules_list 08:02
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sjohnson oops, say* 08:03
ihrd Just as first approach
I think page on the perl6.org will be better one 08:04
Su-Shee ihrd: cool, I've wanted to put something like this in the redesign anyway. 08:05
carlin sjohnson: depends why you think it was cute
ihrd Su-Shee: very good, do you have redesign drafts? 08:07
I can help with markup if your need any help
sjohnson carlin: for good reasons, it's oaky 08:08
okay*
ihrd and I am dreaming about RSS feed with new perl6 modules
sjohnson i just liked your initiative, carlin 08:10
carlin heh, wasn't that hard 08:14
I'm surprised no one did it before me
correction: wasn't that hard with only getting rakudo to work 08:15
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Su-Shee ihrd: drafts are here: sushee.no-ip.org/p6p/ will do some stuff this weekend. 08:17
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ihrd Su-Shee: ok, so let me know how can I help :) 08:24
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Su-Shee ok :) 08:25
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carlin someone should update the /topic to point to perl6.org 08:37
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Juerd »ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! 08:42
Juerd carlin: You can also do this yourself. The topic is not locked (channel mode +t). :) 08:43
carlin oh 08:44
carlin doesn't understand IRC flags :p
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szbalint :) 08:52
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jnthn o/ 09:33
phenny jnthn: 07:29Z <dukeleto> tell jnthn to check his messages in #parrot
dukeleto jnthn: hola 09:34
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jnthn dukeleto: hi 09:34
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dukeleto jnthn: i made a bunch of commits and created some issues on blizkost's github 09:35
jnthn dukeleto: nice 09:37
dukeleto jnthn: i can get the repl to start up, but I get $ ./blizkost > print "I am blizkost!\n";Class 'P5Interpreter' not found
jnthn dukeleto: See, you're fulfilling this dream that I'd write the first bit of this, and then @other would write the test. ;-)
dukeleto jnthn: yes, I got the test actually working and failing quite hard :) 09:38
jnthn dukeleto: :-)
dukeleto: I'm guessing it must somehow be failing to load the PMC library.
I'm not sure why it would fail there, but work otherwise though. 09:39
dukeleto i very much dislike that load_bytecode in parrot fails silently
jnthn: the harness gets further
jnthn Yeah, it rather sucks that it fails without telling what/why. 09:40
dukeleto jnthn: $P1 = $P0.'command_line'(args) is what kills the harness
jnthn: positional inside named args at position 3
jnthn That's odd...
dukeleto jnthn: can you make sense of that? 09:41
jnthn OK, I'll have to dig in to that, but I'm kinda tied up right now.
No, that sounds...odd.
dukeleto jnthn: full output at github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues#issue/2 09:42
jnthn oh hmm, it looks like it's something about the signature of compile... 09:43
If it doesn't already take a slurpy parameter, you could try adding one.
To see if that makes the problem go away.
dukeleto jnthn: i tried every permutation of named and slurpy params :( 09:45
jnthn aww
jnthn wonders if eval looked sane
dukeleto jnthn: coke told me about dumper.pbc in the parrot runtime, but I can't get that to work either 09:47
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dukeleto i am going to run against that wall a few more times 09:50
jnthn dukeleto: OK - I'll look too when I get a spare moment (things are kinda crazy here for next couple of days). 09:52
dukeleto jnthn: at your leisure :) 09:53
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nothingmuch moritz_: your openid sucks: blog.woobling.org/2009/05/your-openid-sucks.html 11:12
M_o_C nothingmuch: Cool :) 11:17
nothingmuch spread the love =) 11:18
OpenID is misunderstood. it's a shame, it's really well thought out
i want to cry every time I see a Yahoo OpenID in use
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M_o_C Can't exactly comment on that, it seems like I should learn more about OpenID first :) 11:21
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pugs_svn r28097 | ruoso++ | [perl6.org] revert r28089, since it made the layout break in systems with bigger fonts 12:17
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 12:19
phenny pmichaud: 07:28Z <wayland76> tell pmichaud azawawi thinks that perl6 --version should report the actual version too :)
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pmichaud phenny: tell wayland76 I think perl6 --version should report the actual version. But I don't know of a clean way to do that yet... patches welcome. 12:20
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when wayland76 is around.
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takadonet morning all 12:20
pmichaud good morning, takadonet 12:21
takadonet how are you doing pmichaud? 12:22
pmichaud doing well today
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takadonet pretty quiet in here today.... 12:36
pmichaud It is.
takadonet Hopefully that means people are hacking with or on rakudo :) 12:39
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smuj rakudo: my $x=10; ++$x; say $x; 12:49
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«11␤»
smuj rakudo: my $x=10; --++$x; say $x; 12:50
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
smuj rakudo: my $x=10; ++--++--++$x; say $x;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«11␤»
smuj rakudo: my $x=10; +-+-+-+$x; say $x;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
smuj rakudo: my $x=10; $x+-+-+-+$x; say $x; 12:51
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
smuj perl6: my $x=10; $x+-+-+-+$x; say $x; 12:52
p6eval elf 28097: OUTPUT«Useless use of addition (+) in void context at (eval 129) line 4.␤10␤»
..pugs, rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
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smuj rakudo: say "5"..8 13:06
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5678␤»
smuj rakudo: say "5"..9
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465666768697071727374757677787980818283848586878889␤»
smuj rakudo: say "-5"..9
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output ) 13:07
smuj perl6: say "-5"..9
p6eval elf 28097: OUTPUT«-5-4-3-2-10123456789␤»
..rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
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smuj perl6: say "-5"..50 13:12
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
..elf 28097: OUTPUT«-5-4-3-2-101234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«-5-6-7-8-9.0.1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9/0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9000102030405060708091011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950␤»
smuj rakudo: say "-5"..50
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
smuj rakudo: say "hello" 13:13
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«hello␤»
pmichaud "-5"..50 is considered an empty range
rakudo: say "-5" gt 50 13:14
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
smuj gives me 5 here!
pmichaud rakudo: say "-5" gt "50"
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
pmichaud checking.
oh, it's timing out 13:15
smuj oops, nope, "5"..50 gives me 5 here
"-5"..50 just loops - ^C required 13:16
pmichaud well, I'll see about cleaning up the range implementation a bit, but some things are just weird in the Perl 6 spec with respect to ranges
smuj yeah, so I've found out :)
not a problem, just playing! 13:17
pmichaud I'm guessing that "-5"..50 should produce (according to the spec): "-5", "-6", "-7", "-8", "-9" 13:18
(five elements)
smuj it's the number 9 which confuses me (and maybe Rakudo) 13:19
rakudo: say "5"..8
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5678␤»
smuj rakudo: say "5"..9
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465666768697071727374757677787980818283848586878889␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say "5".."9"
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«56789␤» 13:20
pmichaud rakudo: say ~9.chars
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud rakudo say (~9).chars
rakudo: say (~9).chars
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
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pmichaud for some reason the ..9 is producing a string with 2 characters 13:20
rakudo: say ("5"..9).perl 13:21
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«"5"..9␤»
smuj yeah, 99 produces 3 etc
pmichaud or there might be a problem with computing the endpoint in string ranges
PerlJam good morning #perl6
"5"..9 looks like it's going 5..90 to me.
pmichaud well, "90" is the first string that is gt "9" 13:22
all of the others are le 13:23
smuj in $x..$y should $y try to transform into the same type as $x? 13:24
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pmichaud smuj: I don't know. 13:26
smuj k
I'll leave ya in peace now! :)
PerlJam maybe it should fial
er, fail
(not dwimmy, I know) 13:27
pmichaud also, the use of the word "longer" in S03:2962 bugs me a bi
*bit
PerlJam pmichaud: why? 13:29
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carlin rakudo: sub foo() {}; multi sub foo() {}; 14:09
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine foo␤push_pmc() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤»
PerlJam carlin: that only works if you've got a proto in place before hand.
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carlin PerlJam: I know, I don't think the push_pmc bit is right 14:14
and if you do that twice from the command line ...
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colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; subset Positive of Integer where { $_.n > 0 }; my Integer $i = Positive.new(n => 5); say $i.WHAT; 14:49
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«()␤»
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colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; subset Positive of Integer where { $_.n > 0 }; my Integer $i = Positive.new(n => 5); say $i.n; 14:54
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«set_integer_native() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤in Main (/tmp/XrlwGqCvJc:2)␤»
colomon Okay, that I had not expected.
carlin I get that if I run it twice in a row in the CLI
colomon : rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; my Integer $i = Integer.new(n => 5); say $i.n; 14:55
carlin I didn't think the evalbot could show those types of errors though
rakudo: sub foo; 14:56
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 2, near "foo;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
carlin rakudo: foo
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
carlin hrm
colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; my Integer $i = Integer.new(n => 5); say $i.n; 14:58
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«set_integer_native() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤in Main (/tmp/MFJd1dgG0Q:2)␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; my Frobozz $i = Frobozz.new(n => 5); say $i.n; 14:59
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
colomon Ah, Integer may be a reserved word of some sort?
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colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz { where $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.n; 15:01
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "{ where $_"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
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colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i ~~ Frobozz; 15:02
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i ~~ Baz;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Frobozz); 15:03
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Baz); 15:04
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Baz $i = Frobozz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Baz); 15:05
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
colomon aha! That's finally got it.
in the August release that returned true. In the current build, it returns false. 15:06
Not sure what the right answer should be.
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yath hm. would be cool to have something like B::Deparse for rakudo that adds a comment to the statement in which synopsis i'd have to look ;) 15:29
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hobbsc anyone have issues/reservations about perl6 in production environments? 15:32
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KyleHa That may depend on what you're producing. 15:34
sjn hobbsc: like as in aeroplanes or nuclear power plants?
KyleHa Do lives hang in the balance, or just your own patience? 15:35
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hobbsc hobbsc: nah, municipal stuff 15:40
just using it for system glue/automation
carlin "Approaching turbulence, raise the Aircraft set_integer_native() not implemented ft"
pugs_svn r28098 | lwall++ | [S03] qualify "longer" to mean graphemes for pmichaud++ 15:41
carlin hobbsc: for most tasks it's just as ready as Perl 5
hobbsc thanks for the input 15:44
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Tene hobbsc: Perl 6 in theory? No. Rakudo running on Parrot today? Yes, I'd have reservations. 15:50
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hobbsc 5.10 seems to be working well, i considered upgrading across the board 15:55
may be too early yet
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TimToady the design is not entirely stable yet either; we've made no backward compatibility guarantees to the current spec 16:04
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yath what's the state of ponie, btw? or is there a successor? 16:07
TimToady the ponie effort was premature and was declared dead at one point 16:08
yath hm
pmichaud I think the current successor (just started) is use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/39530
TimToady there will certainly be some kind of successor, but I don't know if it will be called ponie
there are actually several approaches to p5 interop, and we'll probably try them all at some point
16:09 desertm4x left
yath i wonder if it's possible to embed perl5 inside rakudo and use O.pm for creating PIR or so. 16:09
ah
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yath blizkost apparently does that 8-) 16:09
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mrsaturn g'morning everyone 16:10
pmichaud good morning, mrsaturn
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yath hm, blizkost looks cool. 16:12
TimToady mrsaturn: we're looking forward to your rings disappearing in November :) 16:13
mrsaturn :( 16:15
TimToady temporarily
pmichaud -O- 16:17
lucs geology.com/news/2009/saturns-rings...-811.shtml
TimToady ah, someone messed the data around 16:20
I was reading an article from the other side of the pond, and they thought 8/11 meant 11/8
interesting 16:21
mrsaturn I knew 18 days ago wasn't november
TimToady well, mrsaturn, you're off the hook for another 23 years or so.
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TimToady 'course, it's also possible that someone changed the spec 16:21
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quietfanatic Are multi subs supposed to be able to take constant named arguments? 16:38
multi doit (type<a>, *@args) {...}
that's :type<a>
ruoso quietfanatic, I guess they can... the same way as they can take constant positional argumetns 16:39
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quietfanatic Just Rakudo hasn't implemented them yet. I can work around that for now. 16:40
ruoso std: multi (:type<a>, *@args) {... }
oops
p6eval std 28098: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/LvZHWTfOfI line 1:␤------> multi (⏏:type<a>, *@args) {... }␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ parameter␤ signature␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:03 40m␤»
ruoso std: multi a (:type<a>, *@args) {... }
p6eval std 28098: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/wSGsrKdEka line 1:␤------> multi a (⏏:type<a>, *@args) {... }␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ parameter␤ signature␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 39m␤»
quietfanatic Oh, ruoso. I saw you reverted my change. I don't mind, but would it be better if we shrank the header to line it up with the boxes? 16:41
ruoso quietfanatic, the problem is that the difference scales when the fonts are bigger
quietfanatic ...looks like that doesn't work.
Yeah. I made it scale larger depending on font size, but there's screen size limitations too. 16:42
What would be ideal is to make the boxes never have to squeeze to two columns.
ruoso yeah.. 50 em or so requires a huge screen for bigger fonts
quietfanatic, that could be made by making their size in % 16:43
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quietfanatic Yes, but their statically-determined height means the text could conceivable overflow below them. 16:43
Su-Shee yeah. weekend. my perl instead of office perl. :) 16:44
quietfanatic On a small font size/large screen, the header looks crooked on top right now.
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TimToady there are no good synonyms for 'context'; thinking about changing 'my $FOO is context' to 'your $*FOO' 17:27
(can't use 'context' as declarator because it looks too much like 'constant') 17:28
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ruoso TimToady, your is not a bad idea at all 17:30
TimToady it should really probably be 'our', but that one's taken, and probably can't be swiped 17:31
ruoso keeps voting for the death of the globals
TimToady well, I'm close to at least having more things default to 'my' rather than 'our' 17:32
list subs
*like
goodness, neural programming from BASIC...
ruoso that is certainly going to be a shock for p5 programmers, but I do support the idea
TimToady but the fact is, we're already saying that multi dispatch only looks in lexical scopes
so there's not much point in having subs with package aliases at all 17:33
unless you really want one
in which case you can always say 'our sub'
ruoso I wonder if that is really a declarator
since it's just "declare a my with an alias in the package"
TimToady well, other way around, really 17:34
you don't get it cloned
ruoso not cloned, aliased
TimToady talking about cloned closures 17:35
they get separate my vars
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TimToady whereas our vars all point to the same var 17:35
so the alias is in the lexical pad, not in the package
ruoso TimToady, hmmm... alright... 17:36
but defaulting subs to my have another side
TimToady but yes, I'd like the default to be right, and 'our' doesn't feel like the right default for subs
classes maybe 17:37
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ruoso people is used to be able to call Package::foo() even without importing the symbol 17:37
in fact, sometimes I only "require" instead of "using" some module to avoid the clutter in my lexical scope
(in p5 I mean)
TimToady yes, we have a similar problem with constants that are 'my', which is why (for the moment) they are 'our' 17:38
but I don't like it
ruoso it makes a lot of sense for infra-estructural multi-subs to be "my" and "is export" 17:39
TimToady for instance, if enum Bool <False True> is 'my', you can't (currently) say Bool::True
ruoso but if we think in plain "structured programming", having them our by default is sane
TimToady so I think that exported things need to be lookupable
as if they were packagey
even if they're really 'my' 17:40
ruoso TimToady, you mean having they as I was thinking "our" worked
just aliased in the package?
TimToady which is presumably not a problem for constants, since they don't need cloning 17:41
but then that's pretty much the same as saying that constants default to 'our'
ruoso .oO ( "multi foo is export is global {...}" )
where "is global" installs an alias in the package, in contrast to "our" that declares in the package and alias locally 17:42
TimToady seems relatively useless to me 17:43
ruoso it's indeed a minor semantic thing 17:44
TimToady and also rather opaque to newbies
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ruoso but maybe just saying "if you want regular structured-programming package routines, use 'our multi foo'" 17:44
TimToady you have a very strange definition of structured programming 17:45
ruoso I mean in the sense that people who does structured programming expect the language to look like
TimToady stuctured programming looks like Pascal 17:46
ruoso routines in namespaces
TimToady not in Pascal
ruoso tries to remember how namespaces were in non-object pascal
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TimToady routines were essentially lexically scoped 17:47
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TimToady but structured programming historically means, mostly, avoiding goto 17:47
blocks should only have only one entry point (and one exit in the strict form) 17:48
ruoso well.. I mean it as opposed to OO programming (inside the imperative-programming universe)
TimToady okay, the no-dispatcher universe, maybe
I don't know of a good term for that, really 17:49
ruoso usually hear "structured" ;)
TimToady I fear the term has come to mean something approaching "dark ages" 17:50
ruoso hahaehae
TimToady they didn't seem dark at the time :)
ruoso anyway... people working with without-OO-imperative-programing expect namespaces to behave like "our" 17:51
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ruoso although Pascal doesn't have namespaces apparently... and php only got proper namespaces when it got OO... 17:53
but in p5, people uses the namespaces a lot, I think...
when doing non-OO-imperative-programmign (NOOIP)
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JimmyZ Good before-dawn, #perl6 18:02
Su-Shee JimmyZ: a good before-dusk to you. :) 18:04
JimmyZ Su-Shee: thanks 18:06
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pugs_svn r28099 | fglock++ | svn-commit.2.tmp 18:41
TimToady er... 18:43
18:44 jaldhar joined
ruoso now *that's* an unusual commit message 18:44
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ruoso TimToady, anyway... what do you think about the idea of splitting the "Conceptual Types" from the "Storage Types" when dealing with numbers? 18:45
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TimToady that's more or less how it's already split up; Num is supposed to represent what normal people think numbers are 18:47
normal != mathematician
however, certain subset types are privileged in indicating promises about storability 18:48
such as Int
sjohnson common man == Num?
Tene Apparently Boeing is currently debating about whether or not to migrate their support scripts from perl.
TimToady s/man/people/ :)
sjohnson how about something to represent numbers as imagined by toddlers too :) 18:49
Tene Also whether to migrate them, if they do, to python or Perl 6
ruoso TimToady, er... you don't need to be a mathematician to know that about imaginary numbers 18:50
PerlJam Tene: are they planning on migrating 2 years from now if they do?
Tene Apparently.
ruoso I mean... Complex ~~ Num being false is very much weird... and I'm a social scientist 18:51
PerlJam Tene: That's one of those business decisions I have trouble understanding sometimes. If they have something that works in perl, why change? (unless they honestly believe perl is dead)
TimToady well, maybe they're having trouble finding programmers 18:52
Su-Shee PerlJam: the main reason I heard over the last year here in germany: trouble finding developers
TimToady also Boeing's perl probably includes a fair bit of JPL
sjohnson nietzsche python users would say that
Tene They're having a lot of trouble finding new hires that know perl.
PerlJam If they're having trouble finding perl programmers, then perl is dead in their area.
sjohnson i would love to work fulltime with perl 5 / 6 18:53
Tene The majority of new college grads that apply know and use python.
PerlJam Tene: but see, that's the weird thing ... so what? If they know python, then perl shouldn't be too difficult to pick up.
Su-Shee Tene: here java.
18:53 ejs left
ruoso problem is, scripting languages were all obscure for the formal education... then they started being subject of cs graduation in several colleges... but perl was left behind in that respect 18:53
Su-Shee PerlJam: well, I know _very_ few python/java people actually willing to switch. ;) 18:54
PerlJam Knowing a specific language is just a fine skin over the important stuff.
sjohnson fwiw, i had to learn Perl because someone wrote our book data processor in it
thank Goodness for that
PerlJam (knowing the concepts and how to design things and how to solve problems is way more important than knowing a specific languag)
sjohnson otherwise i wouldn't have picked it up
ruoso had perl as his first serious language... 18:55
sjohnson PerlJam true, but it is nice if you have that skill, and can program quickly with a language you are versatile in
Su-Shee perl was my first ever programming language...
PerlJam I'm certainly a "perl person", but I picked up python and ruby and php with no problems.
and haskell
pugs++ :)
pugs_svn r28100 | fglock++ | mp6 update 18:56
sjohnson PerlJam, what are your brief thoughts on the Python/Ruby vs Perl debate? if you don't want to answer here (or at all)... can you plz pm me?
PerlJam maybe that's a one-way relation though.
TimToady er...
PerlJam it only works out if you start as a perl person :)
Su-Shee PerlJam: me too - but: here, everybody I know who likes python simply doesn't consider a perl job. (not to mention the java fellows) - so very few (still existing) perl developer apply for a job..
PerlJam sjohnson: what debate? It's not a contest. 18:57
takadonet The bioinformatics field uses Perl extensively but for anyone heavily lifting, we use C
PerlJam Su-Shee: that's like saying .... "I only work on Ford vehicles; I won't work on Chevy or Chrysler" 18:58
ruoso today refuses Java jobs
after 4 years of heavy suffering
Su-Shee PerlJam: well as long as it people and developers more or less have free picks what they work...
sjohnson was just wondering if you could mention if there are things you dislike about Ruby or Python 18:59
Su-Shee free choice? take a pick? I mixed up something..
PerlJam sjohnson: Implicit lexicals.
There are very few language-level things that I dislike about either ruby or python. 19:00
ruby feels more like perl though.
(I guess that's as it should be)
sjohnson i don't like ruby's english word block start and ends
Su-Shee sjohnson: that's pretty nice, because {} on a german keyboard suck to type. 19:01
PerlJam sjohnson: Every language has some technical debt. Perl, for a long time, still used EQ as a synonym for eq (for instance)
sjohnson Su-Shee... i could mail you a US keyboard if you like :)
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Su-Shee sjohnson: i've tried, drives me crazy to switch - I still have to write german texts.. :) 19:02
TimToady new slogan: Perl 6 pays off your technical debt.
PerlJam sjohnson: Also, that's kind of part of their perl-nature too.
pmichaud TimToady: hmmm, does it? ;-) 19:03
PerlJam sjohnson: I mean, TMTOWTDI works in other languages, albeit differently :)
TimToady ...by making you a new technical loan :)
technical debt consolidation, yum
pmichaud Ah, the Federal Reserve approach to fixing the technical economy
other languages have been making subprime loans, we convert them
sjohnson TimToady: while we're at it, can we make eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/0..._camel.jpg the Perl 6 camel mascot?
pmichaud (Perl 6 already has a mascot :-) 19:04
Su-Shee sjohnson: oh god please no
PerlJam pmichaud: And TimToady controls inflation how? :) 19:05
pmichaud PerlJam: Perl 6 is all about controlled expansion and extension of the language economy :)
sjohnson it's my imaginary mascot that is not public, because it reminds me of how cool and tough P6 is
TimToady joe camel only thinks he's cool 19:06
pmichaud I tend to think of P6 as being "cool and tough" in a more elegant sense than brute strength
PerlJam sjohnson: tough as in it'll beat you up? or tough as in it fights for you?
Su-Shee sjohnson: strange.. I always think of perl 6 as being smooth and fluffy.. :)
sjohnson tough as in he is a lot more suited for any problem than Python or Ruby will ever be
19:07 smuj left
pmichaud "the skillful warrior never has to fight" 19:07
TimToady and a camel that is stupid enough to smoke proves this how? :)
PerlJam sjohnson: That may be true, but it also may be beside the point if we can't get anyone but the echo chamber to use perl 6 ?)
er :)
sjohnson TimToady: he isn't really inhaling that smoke, he's just trying to get young kids interested in Perl by his badboy image 19:08
PerlJam sjohnson: you're going downhill, fast.
unless you're describing EvilPerl or something
TimToady I'm planning to win their hearts *before* they get to junior high school 19:09
Teach Your Baby Perl
Su-Shee TimToady: I'd say chances are good for winning at least the girls with camelia...
TimToady that is one of my explicit aims 19:10
sjohnson we could make a Japan-friendly representation of camelia too
TimToady there's already one in the topic
sjohnson is it that little thing on the very top left? 19:11
TimToady yes, that's also camelia
in supersonic attack mode, I believe
pmichaud recent twitter post: eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/0..._camel.jpg 19:12
oops, wrong link
eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/0..._camel.jpg
sjohnson see pmichaud? it's working
pmichaud grrrr
stupid cut-n-paste
twitter.com/trodrigues/statuses/3605522918
twitter.com/pedrocs/statuses/3605617735
sjohnson twitter.com/stviewonder 19:13
Su-Shee szabgab introduced me to "scratch" (info.scratch.mit.edu/Support/Refere...Guide_1.4) - that's something I totally would love based on Perl 6 .. visual programming by moving around items on a tablet pc...
(perl 6 for children..)
PerlJam "Scratch projects are made up of objects called sprites." boy does that take me back in time. 19:14
sjohnson TimToady: have you ever tried your hand at the japh thing?
PerlJam (I first encountered sprites on my TI-99/4a :)
Su-Shee PerlJam: scroll down to those "visual blocks" - totally love those..
TimToady I am glad those people find camelia offensive. That's another one of my explicit aims. :) 19:15
sjohnson how could they find that cute little Perl 6 bug offensive
if they think that's offensive, what would they say about Joe Camel?
TimToady I hope they find it so offensive they go and destroy someone else's community, not ours. :) 19:16
Su-Shee _offensive_?! did I miss yet another internet meme? ;)
araujo Teaching kids perl ..... now this will indeed become into a religion 19:17
:)
sjohnson heh araujo
then comes Teach Your Kids Ruby
and the religion wars start in a different form 19:18
what I need is "Teach Your Girlfriend Perl"
now THAT would be a great book
TimToady *tweet* Illegal use of sexist metaphors at line 42.
pmichaud aha!
that's what we need instead of ===SORRY!=== 19:19
*tweet!*
TimToady how tweet it is...
pmichaud and in addition to displaying the exception on the screen, it automatically posts it to your twitter account so everyone else can see your silly mist^W^W^W that you're struggling as much as they are. :)
PerlJam And that's the real reason Perl6 must come with networking support builtin as part of the standard distribution. 19:23
TimToady shh!
ruoso pmichaud, the portuguese perl mongers are notoriously sexist 19:24
TimToady we'll fix you later
ruoso 90% of the messages in the lisbom-pm mailing list are about some sexist joke
PerlJam ruoso: some cultural changes are by accretion, others are by attrition.
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ruoso PerlJam, agreed... I'm very happy about the camelia, I think TimToady was very smart on bringing this issue up... specially on times where sexism is getting worse in some communities (*cough*ruby*cough*) 19:25
PerlJam Is it really getting worse in the ruby community? 19:26
Su-Shee ruoso: you're referring to the "p0rnstar" presentation?
PerlJam That seemed more like a one-off thing than a community endorsed way of being
ruoso Su-Shee, not only that... at FISL they had fashion models walking around with shirts that said "we hire ruby" 19:27
PerlJam I mean, perl has its share of obnoxious personas too :)
Su-Shee ruoso: hm. ok.
pmichaud afk # kid pickups 19:28
Su-Shee I personally think it has more to do with some hip, unconventional image thing...
ruoso might need to notice that he is not portuguese, but brazillian, even if he spent some time in lisbon a while ago 19:29
TimToady the world will be fixed by people who are never entirely comfortable in their own cultures 19:30
it's a complex process, and there are no simple answers, other than individual effort
Su-Shee ruoso: I see perl bikini-wear in our future.. ;) 19:31
PerlJam TimToady: awareness is always a good first step ;)
TimToady well, it really comes down to humility, I think
we need that, as well as hubris 19:32
PerlJam needs more of both
ruoso has a lot of unconfortableness 19:33
PerlJam ruoso: me too!
TimToady ruoso: good, that's the price of having a wide dynamic range
PerlJam this one is interesting (if true): twitter.com/merbist/statuses/3570996955
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[particle] oh give me a break! 19:49
ww
ruoso [particle], feel free to take it now 19:51
[particle] :P
my break starts in 68 minutes, when i finish work and head for the mountains 19:52
PerlJam mountains++
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mikehh rakudo (7666e92) builds on parrot r40842, make test / make spectest (up to r28100) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++) 20:08
PerlJam mikehh: is that an automated thingy? 20:10
mikehh PerlJam: no 20:13
just reporting on my testing procedures for parrot 20:14
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mikehh and I thought that this should be repeated in #perl6 20:15
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colomon rakudo: multi sub infix:<**>(Complex $a, Num $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say 1i ** 3; 20:34
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
colomon rakudo: multi sub infix:<**>(Complex $a, Num $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say 1i ** 3.0; 20:35
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
colomon rakudo: say log(1i); 20:36
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0+1.5708i␤» 20:37
colomon rakudo: say 3.0 * log(1i);
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0+4.71239i␤» 20:38
colomon rakudo: say exp(3.0 * log(1i));
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«-1.83691e-16-1i␤»
colomon rakudo: sub iPower($a, $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say iPower(1i, 3.0); 20:40
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
colomon Errr... seems like a bug?
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andrewz is 6 rdy for production? can it use perl5 mods? 20:41
PerlJam andrewz: yesish and noish. 20:42
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PerlJam andrewz: The Rakudo implementation is quite usable for a variety of tasks. You could use it in production as long as you realize that are some things that just don't work. 20:44
andrewz: however, there will be a release called "Rakudo Star" in the spring of 2010 that aims to be something people outside of the pioneers circle can and should start using. 20:45
andrewz PerlJam: thanks! 20:47
PerlJam: is there a list of things that dont work ? 20:48
also what happened to the haskell based version
too slow?
PerlJam andrewz: I'm actually not sure if there's a list of non-working things.
no, pugs just lost momentum.
andrewz ah darn 20:49
PerlJam The lead developer (audrey tang) had some life issues that caused her to back off quite a bit and there weren't enough lambda camels to make up for that loss. 20:50
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diakopter sjohnson: heh. "Teach your Boyfriend Perl" 21:48
but that begs the question.. Teach *what* to your boy/girlfriend Perl?
sjohnson be sure to order my previous bestselling volume: "Teach Your Girlfriend how to Setup a VCR" 21:49
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diakopter I mean, doesn't Perl already know how to do enough? why teach it more? 21:50
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sjohnson perhaps you misunderstood my intention of the title 21:51
diakopter no; I'm being trollish :P
hugme: hug diakopter
hugme hugs diakopter
TimToady willful misinterpretation is the basis of half my humor :) 21:52
diakopter .. and the other half is accidental misinterpretation!
TimToady er, I wasn't going to say that
:)
diakopter lol.
/msg chanserv help 21:53
ha
TimToady did you notice we were chidden for maintaining a flock of opers? :) 21:54
diakopter /msg chanserv quiet #perl6 *!*@* 21:55
no
I count 9 21:56
TimToady it fluctuates, depending on who is on semi-permanently 21:57
diakopter what's the threshold before phrienoad admins gurgle 21:58
TimToady Any, apparently 21:59
they think we should all be able to oper ourselves up at a moment's notice
but historically it always seemed that that was a bit problematic 22:00
diakopter hrm.. sounds like a job for a bot
TimToady and when we went without operators, we ended up infested
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mikehh rakudo (7666e92) builds on parrot r40846, make test / make spectest (up to r28100) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc) 22:01
sjohnson if people want to keep ops, they should employ GNU screen technology with a remote irc shell 22:03
TimToady diakopter: the incident in question is here: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-27#i_1438135 22:06
sjohnson ahh, us / them mentality is subjective 22:08
TimToady it doesn't seem that way to us :)
pmichaud my irc client doesn't even display chanops 22:09
so I have no idea who has ops and who doesn't :)
sjohnson pmichaud: hit /n
pmichaud I think my point is that I'd not even be aware if I was a part of "us" or "them". It's just "all us butterflies" to me. :) 22:10
TimToady those still in the larval state maybe don't see it that way :) 22:11
anyhoo, if there was an approved way to handle this that doesn't otherwise suck, I'm certainly not opposed to progress 22:12
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sjohnson how bout i wrote a bot to do it 22:12
that ops based on all info parameters of the irc mask 22:13
TimToady well, that's how irc.perl.org handles it, but I don't know how that squares with freenode culture
researches welcome :) 22:14
sjohnson i didnt realize there was an unspoken culture rule
TimToady *researchers
BinGOs This is why there are services
TimToady most cultures have unspoken rules...
BinGOs so you don't have to write bots. 22:15
[particle] please have some culture and don't speak any more of them
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sjohnson hmm 22:16
says nothing on the motd about bots 22:17
Utility Bots and Pseudo Servers
Coming soon!
on the website
pretty sure this culture bot thing is superstition 22:18
and lastly, nowhere in the freenode policy does it mention bots 22:19
22:23 ChanServ sets mode: +o hugme, ChanServ sets mode: +o pugs_svn, ChanServ sets mode: +o dalek, ChanServ sets mode: +o lambdabot
sjohnson chanserv technology 22:23
diakopter channel title appendix: "beware the bots with ops! They know not what they [can] do." 22:24
sjohnson heheh 22:27
diakopter has anyone mentioned that the colors of the boxes on perl6.org are somewhat close to Camelia's, but not exact? Would they look better if they matched more closely? 22:28
sjohnson talk to su-shee
TimToady they used to be closer
colors that look good in small quantities don't always look good in large quantities :) 22:29
sjohnson has anyone seen those tiny MicroSDHC things that hold 8 gigs? 22:31
my oh my those things are small
www.davidgilson.co.uk/wp-content/up...c-16gb.jpg
16 gigs on that little guy
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diakopter I think Camelia should flap her wings (or merely blink or wink) every few minutes. 22:32
or lay some eggs.
TimToady go wild 22:34
but skip the eggs
sjohnson ... because butterflies don't lay eggs i don't think 22:36
if we're going to teach kids Perl, we might as well look credible.
hmm, maybe they do lay eggs
well i'll be
TimToady yes, well, I think she's a little too young to get in on the B&B action 22:37
diakopter Q:"Perl 6. that's the language with a BUG as its mascot. Why would the community want its brand to connote/evoke thoughts of bugs???" A:"Because having a bug as the mascot signifies that all bugs in Perl 6 programs can be blamed on the language itself." Q:"Ummm.."
many female butterflies mate immediately after emerging from chrysalis
TimToady a Perl 6 program can never be fully debugged :) 22:38
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diakopter Limbic_Region: wb! 22:39
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TimToady commuting & 22:51
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dalek kudo: 7666e92 | pmichaud++ | (6 files):
Move infix:<%>, infix:<div>, and infix:<mod> to the setting.

so add dummy versions of those to NYI.pm for now so people know what's going on.		 23:05
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pioto how do div and mod differ from / and %? float vs. int? 23:34
TimToady div and mod are mostly reserved for user-defined types that don't want the coercive semantics of / and % 23:41
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