»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
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cognominal how can I do opendir/readdir in rakudo? 00:22
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colomon cognominal: as far as I know the only current way is just to run ls and capture the results. 00:29
but I may be out of the loop on this. 00:30
cognominal ok, fine by me.
ash_ t/spec/S16-filehandles/dir.t has some uses of that i think, i'd referrer to those 00:40
although they are not being run by rakudo as part of their tests, so they may or maynot work
pugs_svn r29546 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement :: in patterns. _properly_. 00:43
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diakopter
.oO( the ! modifier to : is compile-time for sprixel )
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pugs_svn r29547 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement : in patterns (modifier to repetition quantifiers or other alternations) 01:06
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pugs_svn r29548 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <commit>. 01:35
r29548 | implement character_class.toString().
r29548 | refactor sequence and alternation combinators to build breadth-first
r29548 | instead of depth-first instructions.
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pugs_svn r29549 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <.prior> 01:55
r29550 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <!> (never match anything) 01:59
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sjohnson hi 02:58
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Daenyth Hiya all 03:29
I was wondering, for the 2009-12 release of rakudo, is parrot 1.8.0 enough? I'm (finally) updating the arch package for it, and it says that parrot is at r0 03:31
I'm not sure how to point the configure script to the right place 03:33
or rather, I can see the flag, but I'm not sure where to point it :) 03:37
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diakopter Daenyth: see www.rakudo.org/node/61 03:44
TimToady: does <alpha> mean the same as Unicode Letter? 03:45
(or Perl :alpha:) 03:46
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Daenyth ok 03:55
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TimToady diakopter: includes _ 04:09
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diakopter TimToady: so <alpha> means Unicode Letter or _ 04:13
I mean,
sigh.
Unicode Letter plus _ 04:14
TimToady either is a valid way to say it
diakopter oky doky
diakopter steals Unicode Properties & Blocks from xregexp.com/plugins/xregexp-unicode.js 04:17
TimToady though it's possible we might decide that one one the other way, and leave alpha with the pure unicode definition 04:19
diakopter TimToady: I implemented nearly all of the backtracking control terms & operators
TimToady since there's idfirst for the other, probably
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diakopter ok, 04:26
TimToady currently STD assumes it includes _ 04:27
diakopter /\\G[_[:alpha:]]/ 04:29
TimToady: should I use the Unicode 5.2 database? 04:32
TimToady why not use the latest? 04:33
diakopter heh 04:34
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vamped what about this: is <.> the same as <graph> ? 04:35
to me "graphical character" means the same as grapheme 04:36
TimToady the Unicode consortium tends to use longer names for things than we do :) 04:41
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TimToady but I'm not sure that <graph> is well defined 04:42
might be a hangover from POSIX
which usually gives me a hangover
so it's not the same as what we call a grapheme 04:43
since "non-printables" are also considered graphemes 04:44
vamped I wasn't aware of that, but it makes sense 04:45
TimToady basically, a grapheme to Perl is just a base codepoint followed by 0 or more combining codepoints
vamped so maybe <graph> could be viewed as a visible <.> ?
TimToady I'd go with whatever unicode concept is closest to the POSIX concept, if unicode has such 04:46
vamped thanks. that helps. 04:49
diakopter hmm. how far down the Unicode vortex do I want to descend 04:51
vamped lol @ "The Unicode codespace is divided into seventeen planes, each comprising 65,536 code points or 256 rows of 256 code points:" 04:54
"Graphic characters are characters defined by Unicode to have a particular semantic, and either have a visible glyph shape or represent a visible space" 04:56
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vamped and POSIX defines "graph" as "visible characters". I think we have a conversion. 04:57
thinking more ... unless a space is not considered "visible" 04:58
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TimToady well, it's always seemed like a relatively useless concept to me 05:05
historically speaking, mostly came down to "what won't drive my line printer crazy and spew a box of paper" 05:06
vamped I think that Unicode is contradictory to the past perl concept that print = graph + space.
so something might have to change
TimToady Perl has historically ignored most of what the standards bodies have to say :) 05:07
but if Unicode claims a particular name, we should probably try to go with it
vamped agreed. but then <print> and <graph> will be the same? 05:09
TimToady certainly we should be ignoring POSIX completely now in this regard
diakopter I'm deciding to defer libicu integration (using v8-juice + libv8) to another day. Preferably a day when I can use C++.
TimToady someone should translate the mktables.pl program of Perl 5 to spit out Perl 6 code instead. 05:10
oh, no .pl
diakopter but 05:11
how 'bout if mktables expactorated JavaScript instead 05:13
TimToady it doesn't have to be either/or 05:15
diakopter looking at github.com/github/perl/blob/blead/l...e/mktables
TimToady and some implementations may go the minimalistic route to fit onto a cellphone 05:16
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TimToady or into a mitochondrian repair robot 05:17
and in theory, NFG is just integer arrays, and Perl 6 is supposed to do those fast 05:21
and the killer is that anything like icu is unlikely to implement NFG anyway 05:22
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diakopter ok. I read pdd28 (again) and understood it for the first time 05:38
where is NFG in the Synopses
ok, I just read the Unicode-in-NFG-formation thread 05:43
seems to me the temporary-composed-codepoints should be process-wide instead of per-string 05:45
bed& 05:48
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Mantis do subroutine definitions have to go before the invocation in the source 07:57
or can they go at the bottom
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mryan sure is quite around here... 09:18
s/quite/quiet/
perl6: "Hello World".say 09:19
p6eval elf 29550, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: Hello World␤
hejki perl6: "good (GNT) morning, #perl6".say 09:20
p6eval elf 29550, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: good (GNT) morning, #perl6␤
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Su-Shee good morning 10:04
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saschi moin 10:15
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Su-Shee
.oO(tax filing program in perl 6..)
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sharno hi 13:49
I'm new to programming languages
is it easy to start with perl 6 ?
frettled I think we'd be slightly less than perfectly honest if we said "yes" at this point in time. 13:50
soupdragon hehe you can learn Oz from the CTM book or Scheme from little schemer 13:51
sharno is python easier to learn? 13:52
Su-Shee sharno: what's your background?
sharno I know very little in programming 13:53
just some of visual basic
Su-Shee sharno: yes. what's your background? are you a student or do you come from social science..? 13:54
sharno I'm student in medical colledge
Su-Shee and what do you want to program? 13:55
sharno I'm just learning it as a hobby not for my work
Su-Shee then start with the language which you think is nice or speaks to you. really doesn't matter. take what you like. 13:56
sharno mmmmmmmmmmmm
frettled That's not very helpful ;)
sharno thanks
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Su-Shee nowadays, they all have nice books. 13:56
sharno I saw these books "..........for Dummies" 13:57
Su-Shee frettled: of course it is. there is no "best language" if you want to start to program for the fun of it. so he can take whatever he fancies or his buddies use or...
sharno: "don't" ;)
frettled Su-Shee: no, but if you don't really have a clue where to start, a _few_ pointers is better.
Su-Shee frettled: hence me saying "what you think is nice" or "what speaks to you". if python looks nice to him, he should go for it. 13:58
sharno like what?
soupdragon I wouldn't recommend to read any books for dummies
sharno why? 13:59
frettled sharno: Depending on your energy and time, I'd suggest looking at two or three different languages. You will find decent beginners' books on e.g. Java, Perl (5), Python and Ruby. All of these have free (as in beer _and_ freedom) programming tools. Your choice _will_ influence on how you do your programming later on.
Su-Shee because they're not really well done for beginners despite what the title says.
frettled Su-Shee: if you don't know what programming languages are out there, then that might not help :) 14:00
Su-Shee frettled: you are really recommending _Java_ to someone who wants to take up programming as a _hobby_? :)
frettled Su-Shee: yes.
soupdragon there are a lot of programming languages frettled
Su-Shee poor fellow.
frettled soupdragon: exactly
sharno I'm thinking about perl and python
frettled Nah, Java is useful in its own ways.
sharno: try both.
sharno but can't decide
soupdragon I wonder why a beginner will graviate towards stuff like python today
Su-Shee sharno: they both have a nice book "learning perl/python" from O'reilly. 14:01
soupdragon: why not?
soupdragon rather than Oz or scheme or something like that
Su-Shee soupdragon: I don't even know what Oz is. 14:02
soupdragon probably just because it's new-ish and pop so there's all this advocacy
sharno I didn't hear about Oz or scheme before
frettled soupdragon: Oz is perhaps a bit too exotic. Scheme might be nice, it certainly used to be a decade or two ago, but I don't know how well it's developed.
soupdragon how can it be too exotic?
Su-Shee sharno: take python or perl, you'll be fine with it.
sharno thanks su-shee :D
Su-Shee sharno: later on you can learn all other programming languages.
sharno I'll try perl
frettled soupdragon: it might not have good beginners' guides, it might not have the programming frameworks to get started on your platform of choice, etc. 14:03
sharno first
Su-Shee sharno: --> #perl
soupdragon frettled no I don't really agree with that at all
Su-Shee sharno: learn.perl.org/library/beginning_perl/
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sharno thanks :D 14:04
frettled soupdragon: nevermind :)
sharno it will be very useful as a beginning for me
:D
what about perl 6 ??
is it hard or because it's still in development 14:05
?
frettled It's not very hard, I think.
Su-Shee sharno: no documentation for your needs available, for starters.
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Su-Shee sharno: if you come from perl 5, perl 6 is relatively easy to take up. 14:05
sharno aha
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frettled Some people here _are_ working on a new Perl 6 book, which certainly will help a lot. 14:06
Su-Shee yeah it'll be a good book, but probably not for "I'm new to programming"
sharno I've to go now
thanks again very much 14:07
frettled sharno: there are some tutorials and stuff here, though: github.com/perlpilot/perl6-docs
see also the Documentation section on perl6.org
sharno: good luck
soupdragon actually I have no idea what 'programming frameworks' are 14:08
so I might be too hasty to disagree on this
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sjohnson hi 14:17
haven't seen masak in a while
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colomon sjohnson: I believe masak reported a couple of bugs this week. 14:56
sjohnson o 14:58
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pugs_svn r29551 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implemented some of the default pattern methods. 15:41
r29551 | implemented a ranges() emitter (naively supports 0000-FFFF only; will have to suffice until libicu is integrated, which will provide quick generation from the real Unicode 5.2ff tables.
r29551 | implemented xor() combinator, a deterministic (non-backtracking) alternation among (for now) deterministic choice patterns. useful for composing exclusive match checks, such as multiple codepoint ranges (so backtracking information is not stored).
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sundar Hi.. I'm trying to get Perl 6 up and running on my Ubuntu. I've checked out Parrot, but now I'm unable to find the tutorial which instructed how to get rakudo within it in the languages/ folder. Do I just checkout rakudo under the languages/ folder? 16:57
colomon You can certainly do it that way. 16:58
I think most of us who aren't parrot developers checkout rakudo by itself, and have it build parrot for us. 16:59
sundar Yeah, that seems the most commonly suggested way, but I'm planning to develop a language under parrot, so thought this would be a better way to do it.
colomon sure, that makes sense.
(what language?)
I think you need to pass Rakudo's Configure.pl the --parrot-config= option to tell it where to find parrot. 17:03
sundar Nothing fancy, a dynamic language coded in my native language instead of English. Doing it mostly for the learning experience.
colomon ah, cool.
sundar Oh yeah, thanks for reminding, would have missed it. 17:04
colomon (If you can't guess from the "I think", I always have Rakudo build parrot for me. :) )
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sundar :) Ok... I'll try things out, should probably work. 17:05
slavik sundar: s/<local official language>/english/ ??? 17:08
:P
hmm, there's an idea, localize keywords ... 17:09
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slavik or translate 17:09
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sundar where is that substitution run on? I don't get it actually.. 17:09
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slavik sundar, think of it this way: the only thing that make a programming language "english" are the keywords 17:10
since function names can be in other languages and parsers don't know enough to care
but what is keywords were translated/localized
sundar yeah, technically I need to write only a lexer 17:11
slavik I mean, when you add an if statement to your language, you're basically just translating 'if'
same for while, switch, token, and other keywords
sundar in our language however, the sentence structure is different from English, so if we just replace if() with <local_lang_if>() it sounds awkward if you read out the code. 17:12
slavik sundar: like if you wanted to do "int i = 5;", the only real thing you need to change is 'int' since rakudo/parrot won't care about the label
sundar yeah, I understand it.
slavik sundar: in Perl6, you can do: { code } if (condition);
sundar: what language is that? I know India has like 22 official languages 17:13
according to wikipedia at least
sundar It's Tamil
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sundar {code} if condition; won't be good enough either. if(condition) {something} in our language is of the structure "(condition) implies {something}" 17:14
slavik so in Tamil, you can say "if this do that" ?
I see
then that's tricky ... 17:15
so there is no word for 'if'?
hmm
what about the 'else' ? 17:16
sundar else has a direct corresponding word.
slavik like: (condition) implies {code} otherwise {other code}
so that is fine, too?
sundar yeah..
slavik sundar: do you know the shorthand for C's if? it's in Perl (should be in Perl6 as well)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%3F: 17:17
condition ? value if true : value if false
just substitute ? and : for proper words/terms
sundar yes, ternary would read good (but really, there's nothing to 'read' there :) ), but it won't scale for large pieces of code in true part or false part isn't it? 17:18
colomon slavik: in Perl 6 it is ?? and !! instead of ? and :.
slavik colomon: thanks :) I am not so good with Perl6 terms yet :(
sundar: so then you want to change the structure of what it looks like 17:19
sundar: give me two Tamil characters 17:20
colomon slavik: it's just one of those weird little changes, I believe so that ? and : could be used more readily for other things.
slavik fair enough 17:21
colomon: not against it ;)
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sundar எ, இ Why? 17:22
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sundar Can you see them properly? Here I am able to.. 17:22
slavik sundar: pidgin supports unicode ;)
also, give me a word for 'my'
sundar Ok, Empathy does too apparently :)
எனது 17:23
slavik and the word for 'implies'
and print 17:24
or rather say
sundar implies => எனில்
say => சொல்
there's another thing here, the 'say' should come _after_ the text to be meaningful.. :) 17:25
slavik and else
soupdragon what is this great script
slavik hmm, I just realized something ... georgian looks similar to this 17:26
also wavy type stuff
sundar else => அன்றேல் 17:27
elsif would be "அன்றி (condition) எனில்"
slavik paste.lisp.org/+2069 17:28
bot didn't send the pastebin url 17:29
sundar: but would and if-else look like that?
sundar slavik: to me, georgian looks like some other languages in India, not Tamil.. and also looks the alphabets are very simple, in tamil they're quite complicated. but I can see that they might look similar to others..
wow, yes, that reads very meaningful. 17:30
the only issue is introducing elsif also here. 17:31
soupdragon what if you just do s/else/அன்றேல்/
write a big list of substitiutions and then you can just program like it's perl or whatever
oh well it would realyl be the other way around
sundar soupdragon: we discussed that, the issue is for many other things the 'sentence structure' changes.. like if (condition) becomes "(condition) எனில்", so simple substitution afaic won't work 17:33
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slavik basically, it comes down to localizing the keywords and possible structures 17:40
sundar slavik: spot on.. if it was the keywords alone, s/// would do the trick, with structure modifications I'm not sure how much effort this would take. 17:41
mostly though, the structure modifications I can think of are very similar, with keyword <something> becoming <something> keyword: while (condition) becomes "(condition) இருக்கையில்". 17:43
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slavik I think a modified gettext system could ahndle this, or whatever gnu has for localizations that create .po files 17:45
that way I could write Perl6 code in english (or russian) and sundar could open it in Tamil
or even in original and then tell the code editor (that would have to be aware of this) to convert it to other localizations 17:46
hmm
I think we got something here ^^
sundar Wow, that is a great idea, I never thought of it in reverse (from English to Tamil or whatever).. might help many understand code easier, esp. those not very comfortable with English.
slavik sundar: although come to think of it, you don't really need to change '??' and '!!'
since they are just symbols, but whatever would make it easier 17:47
hmm, who do we write to?
sundar slavik: yeah, we can ?? and !! itself, but then it won't read 'natural' anymore.. symbols are mostly harder to read than words. 17:48
*we can use
slavik sundar: to be fair, symbols need to convey meaning ;) which is what words do
sundar: to someone who only speaks/knows tamil, are ! and ? completely foreign chars? 17:49
sundar No not really.. we use them a lot, and anyway programmers, tamil or not, would be very familiar with them. 17:50
slavik sundar: then I would say to have then understand the meaning :P
although if structures of operations are localized, then it doesn't really matter
sundar yeah, people _can_ understand the meaning, but the same holds for Perl too, and still we have 'if' constructs.. isn't it? :) 17:51
slavik well, if is not exactly ?? !! ;) 17:52
sundar slavik: yes, localizing structures is a great idea, I'm looking at gettext PO files now..
slavik but in any case, if structure for 'if' can be localized, then it doesn't matter
sundar: gettext won't support this, but this is an idea
so there would still need to be a universal way to denote the structures. 17:53
sundar slavik: why wouldn't it?
slavik sundar: because it simply can't, it works for strings, not for language structures ;)
if you were to organize perl's structures it would be a hash: %structures{'if'} = 'some structure'; 17:54
what we would like to do is something like: %structure{'if'}{'tamil'} = 'tamil if structure' 17:55
this would be better doable with Perl6's grammars
since you can define a grammar with tokens and redefine it
and Perl6 is supposed to come with the Perl6 Grammar, so all you would need to do is create copies and redefine them 17:56
sundar slavik: ah ok, I think I mostly understand now..
slavik but then you code editor would need to be in Perl6 to be able to understand it all
we want to go from a 1D array of structures to 2D array
make sense? 17:57
sundar or we can redefine the 1D array when we say 'use Tamil' perhaps?
slavik sundar: that's where the second dimension comes in, to make it easier 17:58
so that it is %structures{$locale}{$type_of_structure}
but I am probably using structure incorrectly
sundar but changing to 2D would necessitate changing the current Perl6 Grammar, isn't it? 17:59
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slavik no 18:02
the 2D 'hash' is for storing the pieces of the grammar 18:03
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sundar slavik: Ok, so you're talking about storing our own version of the Grammar, not about changing the STD.pm, is it? 18:04
our own version derived from STD.pm, malleable to localization..
slavik yes
sundar Hmmm.. Wouldn't that be redundant compared to overriding the required parts of STD.pm alone (I'm assuming this is possible) ? 18:06
slavik well, somewhere in STD.pm, there should be something like the following: 18:07
Grammer Perl6 {
bah
anyway: grammar Perl6 { ... token if { 'if' <condition> <block> } .... }; 18:08
that would be changed to: grammar Perl6 { ... token if { <condition> எனில் <block> } .... };
sundar yeah, this is the kind of overriding I was referring to.. What is the advantage of the 2D array method over this one? 18:09
slavik well, instead of changing what is there, we simple create another instance 18:10
like: my %grammars{'default'} = grammar Perl6 {}; my %grammar{$locale} = grammar Perl6_$locale {}; where Perl6_$locale inherits from Perl6 and overrides the needed things. 18:11
sundar Ok, I see your idea and my idea are mostly convergent, differing only in minor details.. :) and I can see yours is better suited to extension to other languages.. 18:12
slavik but then you need to be able to tell what locale/language the code is in 18:13
sundar is it possible to change the grammar used for reading the code with a use statement? like "use lang 'Tamil'" perhaps.. 18:15
but then, it's sort of circular, the interpreter must know the grammar to read that itself, isn't it? 18:16
slavik sundar, yes
sundar Hmmm.. perhaps a commandline switch then?
slavik but then you can specify a standard or something where the second line has to denote some information, similar to the firstline shebang notation
sundar yeah, somewhat like HTML files expressing their charset using a <meta> tag.. 18:17
slavik because if you do 'use' that means that there is a foreign language to learn
no, not that one
the doctype at the top
www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_DOCTYPE.asp 18:18
that type of thing
sundar yeah, that's a better analogy..
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slavik so the second line could contain some "keyword" or "locale" in the native language and then the parser would look it up 18:19
sundar we can have it that the second non-blank, non-comment line should be a language import if we're using a language other than English. that should be backward compatible too 18:20
slavik so that we would have %grammars{'english'}, %grammars{'русский'} and so on
sundar: how about second line that "makes sense"
sundar where makes sense is defined as? :) 18:21
slavik makes sense is defined as ^#(.*)$ | $1 is in keys %grammars
otherwise 'english' 18:22
sundar that's a good idea, but should it be a comment line? 18:23
slavik yes
shebang is also commented ;)
hell make it #!(.*)
sundar that's because shebang is for the shell or whatever, so Perl should ignore it.. here this is something for Perl to read, so semantically doesn't make sense to have it as a comment isn't it.. 18:24
slavik should commented so that if something doesn't support it, it won't chocke on it 18:26
or maybe it should
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sundar If this is to become a part of the Perl 6 standard, then yes it should choke if it doesn't support this.. 18:28
slavik: thanks a lot for so many great ideas.. I'll look into them in detail and give my ideas here later too. 18:32
for now it's getting late for me, going to bed..
japhb I'm just getting back from a month or so away -- what's the status of rakudo ng these days? 18:41
slavik japhb: not a clue :P 18:48
japhb I see there's no pmichaud ... is jnthn around or just idle?
seen jnthn
ah, no seen bot
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jnthn japhb: I'm about 18:50
japhb: Sort of. 18:51
:-)
japhb jnthn, ah, hi!
jnthn hi!
japhb So ... what's the status of the ng branch? I've been away a while ....
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jnthn Rakudo ng has been going slowish...both myself and pm took a break from it over Christmas and New Years, though @other++ did some nice patches to keep things moving. :-) 18:52
japhb OK, got it. 18:53
Does it look like things will be picking up in time for the Feb release, or is there a case of burnout or @life-conflicts?
jnthn I'm back in action now as such, though managed to catch a cold that's been rather distracting me from doing much the last couple of days. But I think it's going away now. Kinda.
japhb Hope you feel better soon.
japhb is really tired of seasonal sicknesses 18:54
jnthn On my part, I took a break over Christmas to avoid burnout, and came back ready to hack again - I'm suffering more inability to think than lack of motivation.
japhb heh
(burnout prevention)++
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szabgab levengli, hi 19:03
szbalint hi szabgab :) 19:04
szabgab szbalint, trying to help levengli to get on the channel 19:05
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levengli am i finally in the room? 19:08
i'm new to this room, pidgin and ubuntu. all i have to calim is perl5 19:09
any recognition of life will assure me that i can move on
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soupdragon lol 19:10
levengli you have it
levengli my main man!
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levengli thanks 19:10
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szabgab levengli++ 19:10
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levengli ok, now that we have that out of the way and i installed rakudu and perl6 - how do i move on 19:11
any tips in familiarizing myself with perl6?
szabgab perl6: "levengli, hi".say
p6eval elf 29551, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: levengli, hi␤
levengli perl6: "levengli, hi".say 19:13
p6eval elf 29551, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: levengli, hi␤
levengli cute
but on the command line, it isn't working
should i be able to call: 19:14
perl6 "'levengli.hi'.say"
slavik perl6 -e 'say "blah"'
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slavik that's on the command line 19:14
jnthn levengli: Depends what your goal is. If you want to learn Perl 6, there's various resources out there - see e.g. www.perl6.org/documentation/. Also reading other people's Perl 6 code can be a good way to get into it.
levengli got it
starting to warm up my engines
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levengli i'll start with perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6 19:15
thanks
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Su-Shee don't forget to say "engedit" instead of "engage" ;) 19:16
lichtkind why current test pass numbers are decreasing?
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jnthn lichtkind: dobry vecer :-) I suspect because most dev effort is going into the ng branch, and we lost a few to Parrot regressions/changes that didn't get hunted down yet. 19:20
lichtkind jnthn: ahoj i thought first its because some test cleanup/ removing old-bad tests 19:21
jnthn There may be some of that too. 19:22
Though I think master is frozen against a certain version of the test suite for now anyway.
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colomon Do we need to get master working on the latest Parrot? They're releasing this week, right? 19:32
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colomon Or not?! "The next release of Rakudo (#15) is scheduled for March 19, 2009." 19:35
:O 19:37
oh, wait, I'm lost in git. 2009....
Right, our next release is this Thursday. 19:39
It's safe to assume, I think, that we're not going to have ng in place by then. 19:40
So what needs to be done for release?
I'm pretty sure master is completely broken WRT Parrot HEAD at the moment.
.oO(Also starting to suspect I'm talking to myself)
 19:41
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jnthn colomon: Last I saw, bacek was working on patching things up. Or I saw a patch or two from him anyway. 20:07
colomon: At the end of the day, though, I said to the Parrot folks way back, "if you do merge callsigs and contexts, it *will* cause issues for Rakudo; please work out how to patch it up before landing the branch". 20:08
colomon Is it a parrot patch to fix it, then? (No master commits since the tiny log function two weeks ago, according to github.) 20:09
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jnthn Ah, I think bacek did write a patch...I thought it had been applied. 20:09
I'm guessing not though.
Was sent to one(parrot-dev, perl6-compiler) mailing list. 20:10
Feel free to hunt it down and apply it...for some reason I thought it had been.
And we still had residual breakage.
jnthn hopes the patch will work
I can have a dig tomorrow, anyways.
Hopefully. 20:11
colomon will try to take alook when not entertaining small child. :) 20:13
korpenkraxar hi all! I mainly stopped by to say you guys are doing a fantastic job with Perl 6! I am looking forward to help out the best way I can atm - by coding in it this year. 20:15
colomon :) 20:16
jnthn korpenkraxar: Sounds great. Hope it's fun, and feel free to drop by here for help. :-) 20:17
korpenkraxar jnthn: I have a <3000 line Perl 5 project that needs a rewrite and I am hoping to do it in Perl 6. I actually have a few questions already. Maybe I should digg deeper into the documentation but these relates more to the current status of the Rakudo implementation than the actual language, so I'll ask the straight away: 20:23
What kind of Unix-type I/O can be used with Rakudo atm? Can I do Pipes and sockets?
Second, what is the status on threading and sub-processes? 20:25
jnthn korpenkraxar: Sockets yes - someone did a pure Perl 6 web server. Pipes I'm not so sure about; I think Parrot can handle them. 20:26
But maybe we don't have the Perl 6 support yet. But that may not be too hard to get added, if Parrot does support it already. 20:27
japhb I know that at least read pipes can be used, because that's how I implement qx() for Plumage
jnthn Oh!
I think we have qx in Rakudo too...
korpenkraxar: Story on threading is less good though, I'm afraid - there's nothing to see yet on that in Rakudo. 20:28
japhb But they are implemented in extremely hackish form in Parrot -- command and args are smushed into a single string and passed to a pipe spawn routine ... which means security FAIL.
jnthn Ouch. :-(
colomon Is qx run the quoted text and capture its output? That worked in Rakudo last time I tried it.
jnthn colomon: think so.
colomon
.oO(wonders if there should be a lazy version of qx)
 20:30
korpenkraxar jnthn: ahh, too bad with the threading. I am looking to write a daemon that listens to multiple pipes/sockets for input and threading would have been nice. Does that also limit the ability to do for do system() or "backticks" calls? 20:35
(sorry about that horrible last sentence) 20:37
jnthn korpenkraxar: Believe those work - well, their Perl 6 equivalents anyway (run and qx) 20:38
rakudo: run("ls") 20:39
p6eval rakudo 3867ff: operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (file /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/1.9.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib/Safe.pm, line 24)␤
jnthn Yeah, implemented but we don't let you do that with the eval bot. ;-)
korpenkraxar jnthn: last and likely the most stupid question, does the funny daemon pragma (in lack of a better word): while (1) { listen_for_input_on_socket; do stuff } work as expected in Rakudo. In other words, can my program listen for input indefinitely while consuming very little CPU cycles using the corresponding loop in Perl 6? 20:50
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jnthn korpenkraxar: If you're just doing a blocking socket read, don't see why it'd so anything different than you'd expect. 20:53
korpenkraxar gr8
jnthn korpenkraxar: The syntax in Perl 6 is just loop { ... } by the way. :-)
(loop can take some extra stuff, but bare loop is infinite)
korpenkraxar :-) yeah I am pretty ignorant at this point. Sorry. Looking forward to the first Perl 6 books. 20:55
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jnthn korpenkraxar: See github.com/perl6/book/ for information about one book that's in progress. 20:57
Tene korpenkraxar: Yes, that works as expected, IF you are only dealing with one socket. 20:58
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Tene If you're trying to listen on many sockets, you have to poll them individually. Rakudo does not have 'select' or async IO. 20:58
jnthn Tene: Does Parrot support select yet? 20:59
(If so, I guess it's probably not so hard to expose it in Perl 6...) 21:00
korpenkraxar Tene: thanx. this is the kind of stuff and gotchas I need to know but which is hunt down.
Tene jnthn: no, no select. 21:01
korpenkraxar: Rakudo does not support threads at all.
jnthn: writing a Select PMC has been on my tasklist for months, but never got around to it.
korpenkraxar Tene: ok. I thought that was needed to do external systems calls at all, or capture input from commands. Good to know. 21:03
njthn: Tene & Co: thanx for taking your time with my questions. It is encouraging to know an IRC like this is only a few clicks away.
Tene No problem. Glad to help.
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diakopter hi #perl6 21:14
Tene Hi!
diakopter Tene: hi, what's up 21:19
Tene Just hanging out at home. I slept in a bit today. 21:20
diakopter my mental TODO list seems to have vanished. I could've sworn there were a few large items in it yesterday. 21:22
Tene I hate that.
I theoretically keep a todo list in a text file, but I nearly never update or check it.
I seem to have lost all momentum on rakudo/parrot, which is disappointing. I was really enjoying that for a while. 21:23
I'm considering working on updating rakudo to parrot trunk. 21:24
diakopter how many tests fail 21:25
Tene Dunno. I haven't tried applying the patch from the list.
diakopter oh. moritz reported the patch's effect on ng. and bacek replied that he'll work on fixing the issues (eval). 21:27
well 21:28
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diakopter I think I should make it a goal today to get an nqp-rx clone running. er, maybe it'll take 2 days. 21:30
I suspect the grammar portion is expressive enough 21:31
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colomon_ Tene: Master needs to be patched to work with latest Parrot before it can be released Thursday. 22:06
Tene colomon_: Yes, I know. I'm confused about why you're telling me this.
colomon_ Saw a bit of conversation in the backtrace. Wanted to make sure I'm not the only one worrying about it. 22:10
You seemed a likely suspect.
Tene ah 22:11
Perhaps. >.>
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Tene I'm leaving to run errands in just a bit. I'll see if I can talk myself into looking at it when I get back. 22:11
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colomon_ If someone could post a link to the patch, it might help me take a look if I ever get ten minutes of peace today.... :) 22:12
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diakopter colomon_: it's linked from groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/...c989f9ac45 22:16
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colomon_ diakopter: thank you! 22:27
cspencer i'm having issues building the version of parrot required by the latest rakudo-ng version. is this a known problem? 22:36
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colomon has the patch building on master while he runs out to get spicy beef with peanuts.... 23:09
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