»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by diakopter on 25 January 2010.
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brianherman is perl 6 finished? 01:41
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Juerd brianherman: No 01:43
brianherman: Is Perl 5 finished? :)
brianherman oh
good point
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brianherman maybe i mean is perl 6 stable? 01:44
the best part of perl 6 is that butterfly
that thing is cute
diakopter brianherman: see perl6.org/specification/ 01:45
significant parts of the specification are in flux and/or unimplemented and/or conjectural 01:46
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zorgnax what keyboard commands do I have available in the rakudo repl? 01:52
the history commands dont work (up down C-p C-n) 01:53
colomon zorgnax: up down works fine for me in the REPL... 01:56
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fookyou test 02:05
zorgnax I'm not sure whats wrong in my setup then. I just did a git pull and rebuilt it so I know everything is up to date 02:06
fookyou Can anyone unban me from #perl?? I dunno why I'm banned.... Just came to the channel after like months...
colomon zorgnax: what platform?
zorgnax ubuntu karmic 02:07
diakopter zorgnax: I think you have to build parrot with readline 02:08
which I'm not sure rakudo does by default 02:09
zorgnax parrot?
diakopter afk&
zorgnax I thought that type of functionality would be in the code for perl6
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colomon zorgnax: it works for me on OS X and CentOS, with Rakudo built with --gen-parrot. 02:11
zorgnax that's all that I did 02:12
diakopter blahnickblah: this channel really doesn't have much to do with #perl 02:15
blahnickblah: probably someone else using your IP address/block got banned.
blahnickblah Yeah, just was hoping.... I love using perl and I'm never on freenode, so I dunno why I'm banned...
I did refresh my ip recently..... I dunno...
diakopter use the web interface
webchat.freenode.net/ 02:16
just be sure not to mention you're banned, or else they'll likely kick you :)
blahnickblah lol
brianherman lol
blahnickblah I'll just change my ip?! Maybe it some range that's banned?? 02:17
I don't really care enough tho.... I got my question answered in #ubuntu.... But if I did it's probably a range ban anyways...
Hows perl6 going anyways??! 02:18
Is it gonna be really different??!
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sjohnson "Is it gonna be really different??!" 03:11
elegantly phrased question
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Su-Shee good morning 07:32
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moritz_ good morning 09:13
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diakopter hi 09:27
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moritz_ how is it going? 09:31
jnthn morning 09:33
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colomon morning 11:01
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sjohnson hi guys 11:25
araujo hello 11:30
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colomon > (1..*).map({ last if $_ > 100; $_.say; }).eager 12:39
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `{'
colomon now works perfectly in my local copy of ng1. :) 12:40
jnthn colomon: Nice! 12:41
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colomon though it only works for numbers, because I don't know the Inf equivalent for, say, strings. (Actually, range iterators only work for numbers, too, because of the dispatch bug.) 12:46
actually, based on the Range spec, it seems like there needs to be some sort of interface where you can determine the min and max possible values for types you can call succ on. 12:47
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colomon ng: say Inf.WHAET 12:58
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«Method 'WHAET' not found for invocant of class 'Float'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
colomon ng: say Inf.WHAT
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
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pmurias in svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/camelia.txt in line 21 it should be "or any other"? 13:10
moritz_ probably 13:11
oh wait 13:12
no
I think TimToady really meant "only the language"
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colomon ng: say 3 lt 5 13:35
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon ng: say 11 lt 5
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon Whoops.
bbkr hi. why there is no news on rakudo.org about 25th release?
moritz_ colomon: what's "Whoops" about that? 13:36
colomon: that's how string comparison works
colomon moritz_: ng's Range is always using string comparison to check Range membership.
moritz_ colomon: ouch
colomon I think I was thinking that lt and gt went with cmp, not leg. 13:37
moritz_ colomon: it should use cmp, which is polymorphic
colomon moritz_: actually, before and after, which are the cmp equivalents of < and > (or vice versa)
of course, at least for now before and after are implemented in terms of cmp. :)
moritz_ bbkr: probably pmichaud++ forgot to put up the notice 13:38
colomon This is why I am always a bit suspicious of TDD: 106 tests for basic Range functionality, but none of them could distinguish between comparing two numbers as strings and comparing two numbers as numbers.
moritz_ this is why I think our test suite is way too small 13:39
in the end no methodology can replace careful thinking
colomon moritz_: exactly. 13:45
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bbkr "perl6 -v" on 25th release still returns "Copyright 2006-2009, The Perl Foundation.", year should be changed. 14:27
moritz_ bbkr: thanks for the hint, I'll change that 14:29
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sjohnson another sleepless night 15:28
i generated some python -> clipper code translation using perl. it is good to use perl again 15:29
Perl's slogan should be "Perl... is there anything it can't do?"
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 16:00
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pmichaud colomon: ping 16:04
sjohnson hi 16:06
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diakopter moritz_: going well 16:24
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diakopter TimToady: is there really an S09 rewrite pending? 16:37
pmichaud I'd guess that the recent changes to slice design is likely to spill into S09 16:41
so, it's not necessarily a rewrite, as much as "figure out how to get S09 to work with new information regarding slices"
diakopter oh 16:42
pmichaud (which may well end up in being a rewrite :-) 16:43
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colomon pmichaud: pong 16:57
pmichaud colomon: for Ranges, I don't think we should be converting Whatever into Inf
I think it should remain as a Whatever
colomon pmichaud: really?
pmichaud in particular, (3..*).perl should probably return "3..*" and not "3..Inf"
colomon will that work better for non-numeric types?
ng: say 2 < * 16:58
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
pmichaud it should work better for non-numeric types, yes.... but it's likely also going to be important for @a[3..*] handling
in the places where we do comparisons on a range endpoint, we'll need to explicitly check for Whatever 16:59
colomon okay, can do.
(I was wondering if there was a shortcut around that.)
pmichaud note that 2 < * produces a WhateverCode object
colomon pmichaud: that's what I thought.
okay, I can have that for you in a few minutes here, I think.
pmichaud no problem or rush... just wanted to make that opinion known :-) 17:00
colomon yeah, but it's too fun to put off. 17:02
:)
Is there a better Whatever check than ~~ ::Whatever? 17:03
pmichaud not that I know of 17:04
colomon ng: my $a = *; say $a.perl 17:07
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
colomon ng: sub foo($a) { say $a.perl; say $a.WHAT; }; foo(*) 17:08
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
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colomon pmichaud: when I try to pass that Whatever to bless, it balks at it with that same "too few positional arguments" message. 17:13
ng: my $a = *; 17:14
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
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pmichaud I'm not sure that Whatever has been implemented in ng/ng1 17:15
colomon pmichaud: it was working when I passed it in using 1..* and Range.new converted it to Inf. 17:16
pmichaud ng: say Whatever.WHAT;
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
colomon Huh.
pmichaud something looks very wrong with whatever there :-)
it may be that the dispatcher is having trouble dealing with threading 17:17
sorry, with whatever-dispatch
colomon yeah, I thought that was just the message for when it tried to bind it to a closure and failed.
(er, whatever the proper term for that trick is.)
pmichaud anyway, jnthn++ is probably the person to check with on that 17:18
we can leave the Inf/-Inf conversions in place for now so that Range "works", but eventually I think it needs to be the type
colomon okay, maybe I won't have it for you in a few minutes. :)
funny thing is, I think I have the right code for the Whatever version already (at least for iteration) but it is full of fail with that issue. 17:19
(I mean, locally, not the version I checked in.)
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spinclad (question: why doesn't 1..* produce a WhateverCode?) (answer: it's special cased.) (special case smell?) 17:21
colomon spinclad: why should it? 17:22
bbkr ng: my %h = * => "a"; say %h{"this whatever is fake :P"} 17:23
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "my %h = * "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
colomon spinclad: I guess I see 1..* as being not that different from foo(*)... 17:25
spinclad in @a[0..*] (or should that be @a[0..^*]?) it seems it should act as a WhateverCode, taking @a's limit index as argument.
but by itself 0..* is supposed to be 0..Inf ... i don't quite see how that works both ways. 17:26
pmichaud spinclad: yes, but you don't typically want my @a = 3..*; to act as though you're creating an array with a WhateverCode object
in the case of @a[0..*] it's not a WhateverCode, it's a Range. Trying to make it a WhateverCode will in fact be problematic
because if @a has 10 elements, then @a[0..10] is in fact incorrect 17:27
spinclad right, so i wondered 0..^*
pmichaud * doesn't mean "last element", it means "whatever" 17:28
it's probably a mental mistake to try to make it mean "last element"
(or, more precisely, "index of last element"
let me put it this way 17:29
we know that for @a[3..7] the postcircumfix:<[...]> needs to be able to handle an argument of type Range
so _that's_ the point at which we check the Range for any whatevers 17:30
spinclad well... inside an index, if it _is_ a WhateverCode, it's handed ... not 'index of last element', but the one after that, the first past the end.
pmichaud right
if a WhateverCode is passed as a subscript, then we evaluate the WhateverCode with the length of the array 17:31
spinclad right
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colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..10; say @a[*-2]; say @a[{$_ - 2}]; 17:35
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«9␤9␤»
spinclad (otoh, in @a[0..*], with 0..* a Range, it looks like one iterates the Range until one falls of the end of @a, without complaint. ... )
pmichaud rakudo would seem to have that wrong.
I'm not sure what the second one should've produced. Possibly it should have not bound at all (no matching multi) 17:36
colomon I was just exploring what would happen if 1..* was the same as { 1..$_ } 17:37
spinclad ng: my @a = 0..9; say @a[0..*]; say @a[0..100]
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
spinclad rakudo: my @a = 0..9; say @a[0..*]; say @a[0..100]
TimToady note that subscripts are defined to not care if their final range runs off the end, so it doesn't matter what * expands to, as long as it's >= elems -1
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«0123456789Use of uninitialized value␤␤0123456789Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of
..uninitializ…
TimToady that does imply keeping the info around somewhere that the final element of the list is a range 17:38
spinclad hm.. interesting difference there.. 0..* stops on first failure, 0..100 keeps going
rakudo: my @a = 0..9; say @a[0..^*] 17:39
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«0123456789␤»
spinclad huh. looks like a WhateverCoded Range to me. 17:40
(btw, in colomon's example, i think the 9's are correct. 17:41
)
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TimToady rakudo: my @a = <a b c>; say @a[0..10000]; # supposed to work by current spec 17:42
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«abcUse of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use
..of un…
TimToady see S09:220
spinclad heh. works fine.
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TimToady *not* fine if you want to interate down the array one slice at a time and merely return a truncated final element 17:44
*iterate, even
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TimToady and the current policy solves the ..* vs ..^* ambiguity by make it not matter 17:46
I doubt that part of S09 is going to change, even if the rest does... :)
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spinclad rakudo: (0..*).perl.say 17:53
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
spinclad (*-1).perl.say
rakudo: (*-1).perl.say 17:54
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
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spinclad (*-1).WHAT.say 17:55
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spinclad rakudo: (0..*).WHAT.say 17:55
p6eval rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«!whatever_closure␤»
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spinclad ok, thanks. so rakudo trunk _does_ make 0..* a WhateverCode, but that's outdated spec, and should indeed be special cased to Range; and trunk likewise doesn't truncate index ranges per spec. seems sensible design, even with the small bit of special casing. 18:01
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TimToady well, it should work even if it does return a WhateverCode, as long as the code in question still returns a recognizable range 18:06
'tis the truncation that is the key
spinclad sure 18:09
colomon Is @a[*..5] also supposed to work? 18:10
TimToady no 18:11
colomon why not?
TimToady truncation is defined only at the end
and 0 isn't that hard to type
spinclad ... but if 0..* be a WhateverCode, then i think other uses of it like for 0..* {...} would fail: no argument given to the WhateverCode 18:12
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colomon TimToady: isn't it possible to create a Positional whose index range doesn't start at 0? 18:13
TimToady spinclad: unless the argument defaults to Inf
spinclad aha... 18:14
@a[*..*] # robotic grin
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
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TimToady colomon: by current spec, .[] is always 0-base, and you use .{} to get something else 18:20
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colomon TimToady: ah. okay. :) 18:20
vorner TimToady: can't you create multi operator and do something else in it? 18:21
TimToady you can do anything you like, with enough work :)
Perl 6 is designed to mutate into any language you like, even if you're into horror... 18:22
vorner but I guess you would handle all the whatevers in it yourself anyway
TimToady if it comes down to it, you can always write macros or grammar rules 18:23
or change out the semantic analysis routimes
but yes, multiple dispatch is lexically scope, so you can always override those easily 18:25
*scoped
vorner Right, I heard that, I just wondered if the axiom that index is 0-based couldn't hurt somewhere 18:26
TimToady hasn't seemed to hurt C that much :)
at some point, one just switches to functions instead of subscripts 18:27
vorner but C doesn't have things like whatevers and so on, any zero-based things are done by programmer who knows if he makes the array something-else based 18:28
TimToady S09 just says that something-else-based just uses .{} instead of .[]
.[] implies UInt
and the type inferencer can depend on that 18:29
colomon Perl 6 has a type inferencer?! Cool!
TimToady in the abstract...
nobody's written it yet 18:30
colomon That probably explains why I've not heard of it. :)
TimToady but it's all swept under the carpet of "If the compiler is able to detect that something will fail at run time, it may complain at compile time." 18:31
jnthn We only do it in one place in Rakuod so far. :-)
*Rakudo
(the case of multi fact(0) { 1 } style things)
colomon jnthn: so, about ng and Whatever.... :) 18:32
TimToady we do not, however *require* type inference, since that also requires the user to be quite sophisticated to do the meta-type-inference
see ML etc.
jnthn colomon: oh noes, what discussion have I just wondered into from while debugging a memory leak... :-)
colomon has an entire collection of half-read functional programming books for much that reason... 18:33
jnthn colomon: I suspect ng may not know a whole load about Whatever yet. 18:34
colomon jnthn: as you can see from the backlog, it gives "too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected" almost anytime you do anything with it other than ~~ ::Whatever.
jnthn colomon: Oh, maybe bit-rot. 18:35
That could be easily fixable.
colomon As pmichaud said, jnthn++. :) 18:36
jnthn For introducing bitrot? ;-) 18:37
TimToady afk &
jnthn Wow, I got karma for rotting too. :-)
colomon for knowing how to fix it...
jnthn I'll try and fix it in a moment...think I know why $work-app is leaking some gigs...
colomon cool. 18:38
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colomon pmichaud: one other thing which keeps worrying me about Iterators. How does @a.map(-> $a is rw { ... }) work? 19:00
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dr_df0 perl6: say 'test' 19:17
p6eval elf 29603, pugs, rakudo 1d4928: OUTPUT«test␤»
jnthn ng: *
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
jnthn colomon: ah, not quite what I thought...gotta go for dinner now...actually seems there is two issues, not just one. 19:18
erm, there are...
colomon k. talk to you later, then.
jnthn cu
pmichaud colomon: @a.map(-> $a is rw { ... }) works because the result of iterating @a is each of the elements of @a 19:20
colomon pmichaud: but how does it work wrt iterators? 19:21
diakopter ng: *
p6eval ng 22b55c: ( no output )
colomon pmichaud: I mean, .get is returning a value, right, not a reference to a value.
pmichaud colomon: no, .get returns the actual container, not a value 19:22
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pmichaud afk, lunch 19:24
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pugs_svn r29604 | lwall++ | [S02,S06] continue de-confusing flat and eager 20:15
PerlJam good day all
colomon o/
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pugs_svn r29605 | lwall++ | [S02,S03,S04] more @@ removal; some s/Capture/Parcel/ cleanup 20:34
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Tene ng: say (*+5).WHAT 20:35
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
Tene ng: say 1..*
p6eval ng 22b55c: OUTPUT«too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11858 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:169)␤»
Tene What part of Perl 6 determines that * with .. is different from * with other operators? 20:36
ruoso TimToady, considering "say flat(<1 2> Z <3 4>)" and "say slice(<1 2> Z <3 4>)"... does a simple "say <1 2> Z <3 4>" still flattens? 20:37
I'm assuming it does, because the signature of say is "(@items)"
sorry...
it is (*@items)
and I somehow think that slurpy does flatten the result 20:38
er... not result, the parameters...
pmichaud (the arguments :-)
I haven't read the updates -- but before all of these latest changes I had been thinking that slice(...) would remove the flattening behavior of any of its arguments 20:39
20:39 cdarroch left
ruoso right... and flat preserves it 20:39
so what is the default?
pmichaud actually, I'd think that flat forces it
ruoso ah... right...
pmichaud there are three levels
Tene "A C<Parcel>s is normally flattened..." -- typo
pmichaud flat - forces it
slice - denies it 20:40
(list) -- allows it
where "it" == "flattening"
ruoso so "sub say(*@items) {...}" will flatten
pmichaud if the arguments to @items are flattening arguments
but the result of slice() never flattens
ruoso or will it still depend on how @items is used?
pmichaud I need to read latest spec updates 20:41
on another topic -- I'm thinking that perhaps we just switch ng1 branch to master within 48 hours
Tene pmichaud: have a list of topics you'd like to see worked on before then? 20:42
pmichaud anything that currently fails "make spectest" :-)
Tene I was planning on looking at * tonight.
pmichaud but short term, I'd like to bring the iterator stuff up-to-spec with the latest changes
whatever would be good also
but I think looking at * isn't much help before we get closures and thunks fixed.
Tene nods. 20:43
20:43 sjohnson sets mode: +o PerlJam 20:48 mberends joined
TimToady I don't have a sig notation for slice context yet, but it might be **@foo, or maybe something liek *@foo! to make it bind like a positional 20:51
also considering whether -> args should just default to slurpy always
pmichaud how strongly are you trying to stick with ASCII for slice notation? 20:52
I keep thinking of 20:53
oops
§ as a possibility
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TimToady well, we'll come up with some way to be explicit about which kind of binding we want, but how to default -> the other way is a problem 20:54
pmichaud I don't quite see the problem with ->
TimToady you posed it as Pm-19 20:55
did you see what I wrote? 20:56
pmichaud yes, but let me re-read
TimToady it just occurred to me that a 3rd approach was to always make -> assume it's in a slurpy setting unless specifically marked otherwise 20:57
pmichaud I would think that if I want a slice that I'd use (old notation) --> @@x
20:57 _ash joined
pmichaud or, more specifically, if I want a non-flattening item 20:57
TimToady yes, but the question is how the default gets to be flattening? 20:58
ordinary mandatory positionals don't flatten
pmichaud true, but there we're binding to a parcel instead of an iterator
in the case of map, we're doing repeated binding against an iterator 20:59
TimToady yes, so the binding has to behave differently than an ordinary call
how does the binder know that?
pmichaud (bad guess) ... because it's against an iterator instead of a standard parcel? 21:00
i.e., inside of .map, we'd be doing &block(|$iterator) instead of &block(|(parcel)) 21:01
TimToady the ordinary call is also binding against the iterator embedded in the Capture
jnthn It maybe pretends to. ;-)
jnthn has seen captures as rather more low-levelish thingies. :-) 21:02
pmichaud I think that's still a difference -- a binding against an iterator is different from binding to a capture (that has an iterator)
many times we end up performing operations on objects for which the first step is "get an iterator for this object", and the behavior is different than if we were performing the operation directly on an iterator
jnthn The capture may be Iterable, which means it can provide an iterator, I'm not sure that means it "has an" iterator (as in $.has)
pmichaud perhaps what I'm trying to say is that I think that binding to a capture should be a "succeed/fail" sort of thing, while binding to an iterator is the way we think of partial binding (more) 21:06
jnthn Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with pmichaud that I'd prefer to see the two separate.
pmichaud I also feel like this is relevant to the handling of feeds
jnthn pmichaud: +1
pmichaud that what gets passed among feeds are iterators with partial bindings, and not completed captures 21:07
TimToady how does map tell the lambda's binding that it's okay to leave extra args?
jnthn TimToady: Presumably because you invoke with an iterator rather than a capture, no? 21:08
pmichaud yeah, something like that
jnthn TimToady: Or are you wanting to distinguish it in a different way?
colomon: Locally:
> my $a = *; say $a.WHAT 21:09
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `='
jnthn Whatever()
/kick lam...
colomon \o/
pmichaud jnthn, colomon: 20:40 <pmichaud> on another topic -- I'm thinking that perhaps we just switch ng1 branch to master within 48 hours
TimToady okay, I'm binding a signature, $x, $y, $z for something. How does the binding of $y know whether to call .get or .getitem?
colomon stupidly thought lambdabot's response was what jnthn was getting locally... 21:10
TimToady it might be a simple lambda supplied to a map, or it might be the where-the-rubber-meets the road of an ordinary sub or method
colomon pmichaud: there have been a couple minor changes on ng since ng1, I think.
TimToady this has to distribute over the parameters so each one knows whether to .get or .getitem
pmichaud colomon: presumably they can be merged into ng1/master also 21:11
TimToady it's not the same throughout the signature
jnthn TimToady: Wait...huh
jnthn is confused now
TimToady then don't vote +1 :P
colomon pmichaud: is there a decent chance we can get spectest back to ng levels before making the switch? it's sort of too broken for regular hacking at the moment.
pmichaud colomon: is anyone actively hacking on ng? 21:12
colomon pmichaud: I don't think so.
pmichaud (whether to call .get or .getitem) ...this is partially why I prefered it to be always .get (which acts like .getitem), instead of trying to put flattening directly into the iterator
21:13 payload left
TimToady then you're re-inventing the iterator inside the binder, I think 21:13
pmichaud then .map would handle flatten-versus-not-flatten in what it passed to the lambda
yes, I recognize this is also problematic
colomon pmichaud: actually, looks like the only patch ng has that ng1 doesn't is turning on spectests.
TimToady or inside map
I'd like a pure view where a signature is a pattern that matches against a supply of values 21:14
and each parameter knows whether it's supposed to match a parcel or something smaller
I'd like map to not care, so you could map with a block with either kind of parameter 21:15
jnthn TimToady: Well, I thought I understood the issue at that point...either a signature sourced its arguments from a capture and exhausted it, or got them from an iterator and didn't care if there was more.
pmichaud colomon: so, if nobody is actively hacking on ng, I'm saying we should go ahead and abandon its line of development in favor of ng1
jnthn pmichaud: oh sh...I just pushed a patch to ng.
pmichaud jnthn: no biggie
jnthn: I did say "within 48 hours"
jnthn Feel free to cherry pick.
colomon pmichaud: no real argument there.... (see jnthn++'s whoops! :)
pmichaud and yes, I figure there will be some cherry picking 21:16
but I also think we might be at a point where it's worthwhile to commit to ng1 as the new master, even if we're not up to date on spectests
TimToady something has to iterate through the capture's list
colomon pmichaud: I do think we need to get things cleaned up a bit before pushing ng1 to mainstream, even if it's just turning off failing spectests.
pmichaud colomon: I'd be okay with that
TimToady: carrying this line of thinking a bit further... when binding to a capture, we do iterate through the capture's list, but that's a bit different from binding to an iterator 21:17
TimToady why?
pmichaud if only because we have the "you must exhaust the list" flag turned on.
TimToady that flag is also the negation of the "you are applying this sig repeatedly and the default binding for each parameter should be slurpy" flag 21:19
colomon pmichaud: how about I make a list of the failing spectests (ie ones that worked in ng but not in ng1), we (or just I?) take a quick look at why they are broken, and turn them off if they can't be easily fixed. then make getting them working again a priority.
pmichaud colomon: that's easy enough to do (more)
just do "make spectest" in the ng1 branch. any tests that are failing, mark with two #'s
the spectest.data file in ng1 was taken from the ng branch, so it already comments out the tests that weren't passing in ng 21:20
TimToady whether you reinvent iterators on a level above iterators or not is relatively immaterial, you have to get the bit in there consistently to all kinds of lambdas
pmichaud it's not just lambdas, is it? It's really any signature, right?
TimToady and like subpatterns, maybe the default for lambda's should be that we are a submatch 21:21
colomon pmichaud: roger. I'll get on it here.
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TimToady and default to get semantics rather than getitem semantics 21:21
for unmarked parameters
jnthn Gotta go for a bit. 21:22
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pmichaud I feel like we're making a fundamental mistake in the design of .map 21:23
not sure where, but the complexity of the solution feels like we might be asking the wrong question
TimToady map should be very simple
pmichaud agreed
TimToady match a sig, turn it into a parcel, repeat 21:24
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TimToady no introspection 21:24
pmichaud is the same true for feed operators?
TimToady ideally
the sig already knows it's a submatch somehow
and somehow the cursor is maintained
over the input stream
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pmichaud well, if we think about it in the subrule context, then the sig is always a partial match, and we carp whenever the outer context determines "oh, you didn't match everything". I.e., the anchor comes from somewhere external. 21:25
colomon pmichaud: actually, this is definitely a good time to switch ng1 to ng, at least, as I keep on wanting to make lazy tests...
mathw I haven't been paying attention, ng1?
colomon mathw: ng1 is a branch of ng with laziness. 21:26
pmichaud mathw: ng1 was a temporary branch I created to experiment with lazy list and iteration
mathw ooooh
cool, thanks
pmichaud mathw: but it's progressed far enough now that I think we're ready to commit to it
mathw my attention's definitely been elsewhere lately
TimToady but lambda don't know whether they're submatches by themselves. it would be like a submatch not knowing whether it should ratchet
colomon mathw: for instance, this morning, I temporarily had (1..*).map ... working.
mathw colomon: that is the most exciting thing I've heard this year 21:27
pmichaud TimToady: yes, I see the problem
and it's that problem that makes me think we're looking at this all wrong
TimToady if somebody writes -> $x, @y {...} we are in trouble if we assume *$x, *@y if he calls it like a normal sub
the alternative is to assume slice binding for map and force explicit flattening 21:28
pmichaud or to require .slice for map if slice binding is wanted
(unless you rejected that option)
TimToady it's just that p5 programmers will expect flatness 21:29
otoh other language folks might expect non-flat
cuts both ways
pmichaud right, flatness default, .slice explicitly says "the elements in the input list don't flatten"
so we'd end up with 21:30
(1,2,3 Z 4,5,6).map(-> $a, $b { ... })
and
TimToady map: -> *$x, *$y {...} to do flattening
pmichaud (1,2,3 Z 4,5,6).slice.map(-> $a { ... })
TimToady and -> $x, $y would bind slicely like positionals do 21:31
that is, itemly, parcel at a time
colomon pmichaud: permission to try to merge ng patches with ng1?
TimToady if we defaulted it the other way
pmichaud colomon: you don't need my permission to do it locally, just to push :-)
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colomon pmichaud: sure enough. :) 21:32
TimToady of course, and people would have to put |foo() into their list to avoid accidental slices
pmichaud colomon: and if everything works reasonably enough after doing it locally, then just push :0
TimToady and I still rather suspect that flat lists will be used more than slice lists 21:33
colomon might just have fallen in love with git... that was dead easy.
pmichaud TimToady: right, so I think that .map should result in flat bindings by default
TimToady which leaves us with the question of how $b knows to do something gettish rather than getitemish 21:34
pmichaud the .slice answer above is that we adjust the input string so that .get results in getitem behavior instead of flatten behavior
TimToady that doesn't work inside a sig 21:35
so can't be used to slicify subscripts, for instance
colomon afk, need to read to the boy for a minute
pmichaud have a quick example of that? I'm not sure I follow
TimToady we can override slurpy with ** or some such, so I'm not worried about that part 21:36
pmichaud (example of slicify subscripts, that is)
TimToady if postcircumfix:<[]> has a sig containing *@slices, it flattens, but if we turn *@@slices into, say **@slices, then it slices 21:37
I'm not too worried about the parameters that are explicitly marked 21:38
but I'd like to be able to choose maps behavior via the signature, not by preprocessing
to take a simple case 21:39
one parameter to map
could be either *$x or **$x to explicitly either slurp or slice
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TimToady the sig is where that info belongs, just as the subpattern is where most of the info should be re ratcheting and such 21:40
pmichaud okay, I follow that last part :)
TimToady could also be some notation like -> ($x) to indicate "I'm a real sig with a real positional parameter that does getitem" 21:41
(assuming we work out ambiguity with existing () usage)
not necessarily a good assumption 21:42
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pmichaud what if someone does (...).map(&foo) -- does it make a difference whether &foo was created via a lambda or a sub ? 21:42
TimToady but slicing may be fundamental enough to warrant stealing the notation
diakopter std: <()><()><()> 21:43
p6eval std 29605: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady I'd like it not to make a difference, if possible, which makes me lean toward map somehow telling the signature to default to slurpy for unmarked params
including placeholders and $_
pmichaud I agree that it's better if it doesn't make a difference
21:44 SmokeMachine left
TimToady hence one of the two solutions in Pm-19 21:44
diakopter std: ->$(){}
p6eval std 29605: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m␤»
TimToady either rewrite/clone a different sig
or rely on some magical cursor applicator to do the right thing with the sig
pmichaud right now the .count approach is more along the lines of "magical cursor applicator" , I guess. 21:45
TimToady if it can solve the cursor problem at the same time, all the better
pmichaud that doesn't argue against magical cursor application, just noting where .count falls :-)
TimToady .count is introspection, and the antithesis of what we're trying to do as pattern matching
the sig should decide how much to match, and it may not know in advance 21:46
just like a subpattern
pmichaud right
TimToady sorry to be so adamant on this; wait, no I'm not... :)
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pmichaud no, I think you're fundamentally correct 21:47
I just can't understand it all yet :)
s/can't/don't/ # I guess
TimToady is living proof that someone can be fundamentally correct without understanding it all yet...
pmichaud and I'm also trying to figure out what to do in the meantime to keep development moving even while we don't have a lot of these fundamental issues resolved
TimToady well, fundamentally correcter, at least 21:48
diakopter by defintion
pmichaud one step might be for me to stop asking questions in pm.txt, I suppose :-) :-)
"If you don't want to know the answers... don't ask!" :-) 21:49
21:49 ejs left
diakopter "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" 21:49
TimToady well, to the first approximation, rakudo can still flatten everything that comes into map until we want to do slices 21:50
colomon > my $a = (1..*); say $a.perl
1..!whatever_dispatch_helper
lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `='
diakopter (jokingly implying TimToady should anticipate all the questions...)
TimToady we can delegate it to the sign later when the sig is ready
pmichaud yeah, I'm thinking that's what we'll likely do
Tene I don't remember ever seeing anyone here actually use almbdabot on purpose.
Does anyone object to me kicking it?
TimToady @karma Tene 21:51
lambdabot Tene has a karma of 70
TimToady looks like you have enough karma to do that
diakopter @karma lambdabot
lambdabot lambdabot has a karma of 2
TimToady hah, you win
Tene Ah, I have seen people askit for karma, yes.
pmichaud I don't have a use for lambdabot other than as something that increases my annoyance level (and by extension, diminishes -Ofun)
Tene @karma diakopter
lambdabot diakopter has a karma of 135
TimToady phenny: karma Tene
Tene lambdabot: owner?
diakopter .karma Tene 21:52
pmichaud for me, keeping track of karma isn't worth the annoyance factor, either.
21:52 lambdabot was kicked by Tene (lambdabot))
colomon just pushed merge plus pmichaud++'s suggestions for 1..* Range -- lazy Range iteration working again in ng1. 21:52
TimToady @foo
diakopter I would've just quieted it
so it doesn't know it's kicked
quieted
sigh. 21:53
dalek MIA again
21:54 dalek joined
diakopter at least it's authenticated 21:54
sjohnson diakopter: how do you quiet it? 21:55
diakopter the irc client on feather (in Europe) connects to freenode through Oregon, but my irc client in Virginia connects to freenode through Germany.
TimToady I thought we were in planet Houston? 21:57
diakopter that VPS is in Mclean, VA I think 21:58
pmichaud scruffy little planet
diakopter Langley to be precise
er, 22:01
erm
maybe not
TimToady was always more of a navy guy myself
diakopter the various geoip dbs differ in knowledge 22:02
_ash > my $a = 1, 2; for $a { say $_.perl }
Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Seq' # i know its not the proper use of variables, but still an odd error, removing .perl prints $a as expected
this is on ng1
pmichaud just copy the 'perl' method from Array.pm into Seq.pm, and change the brackets to parens 22:03
colomon jnthn++ 22:06
_ash so, inside the for loop $a was being referenced by a Seq? (just trying to understand this all)
pmichaud keep in mind that my $a = 1,2; in Perl 6 doesn't do what you think it does.
(or if it does do what you think it does, then you shouldn't be doing that :-) 22:07
PerlJam wonders whose surprise Perl follows for the principle of least surprise. 22:08
_ash hehe, i am probably abusing old ways of doing things, i am sure, or incomplete ways of doing things
pmichaud incorrect, in this case.
my $a = 1, 2; # likely wrong
_ash my $a = (1, 2); say $a ~~ Seq;
1
pmichaud At the moment I don't have a simple mechanism in Rakudo to flag "my $a = 1, 2;" as an error, or I would do so. 22:09
_ash with or without the ( ) around 1,2 it's still 1
pmichaud at the moment, spec says that a Parcel in item context becomes a Seq
and assignment to a scalar is doing item context
_ash std: my $a = 1, 2; say $a ~~ Seq; 22:10
p6eval std 29605: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
_ash whats happening to $a in the std then? just curious
pmichaud it's parsing as
_ash are they both out of date?
pmichaud (my $a = 1), 2; say $a ~~ Seq;
_ash ah
pmichaud and if std were a full compiler, it would probably complain about "useless use of 2 in ... " 22:11
_ash makes sense
22:11 jonasbn left
_ash okay, i get that 22:11
pmichaud rakudo (all branches) currently parses my $a = 1,2; as my $a = (1,2); 22:12
_ash its probably gonna be a long time before my nq-nqp is parsing much of this properly if ever
TimToady it requires = to know whether the sigil on the left was $
STD does it with a dynamic variable 22:13
the trick is to keep a $ from propagating up the left side to far and giving a fake positive
*too far
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_ash so... are ( ) lists going to still be immutable? like i should be able to say my @a = (1, 2); push @a, 4; and it give an error since i used ( ) not [ ] ? 22:20
PerlJam _ash: that would be bizarre. 22:23
TimToady only if you did := instead of =
PerlJam () is immutable, but an @array is mutable.
TimToady = pokes copies of values into the array 22:24
_ash ah, okay
TimToady we had good reasons for leaving = with p5 semantics and making := something else :)
diakopter std: my @a := (1, 2); @a.push 4; 22:25
p6eval std 29605: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/3PdWLj6xzB line 1:␤------> my @a := (1, 2); @a.push ⏏4;␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement modifier loop␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
_ash so, i really need to understand what = vs := vs ::= does
TimToady diakopter: methods can't be listops 22:26
not without a :
PerlJam diakopter: missing a :
diakopter oo
pmichaud ash: = is assignment. @a = 1,2,$b; copies the values from the list into @a
diakopter I'm so behind.
_ash i didn't realize = did a copy
pmichaud if it didn't do a copy, then changes to $b would be reflected in @a 22:27
diakopter and by behind, I mean behind on reading/remembering the spec.
(not not keeping up with changes)
_ash pmichaud: makes sense, i just never realized it till you guys pointed it out
TimToady it's only been like that since, oh, about 2004
diakopter exaclty
TimToady it will help to remember that $.foo wants to look both like a variable and a method call 22:28
diakopter found out for certain; that VPS is in Equnix in Ashburn, VA
and my cubeighbor used to work there. 22:29
TimToady and the default on whether to look for more arguments is different between methods and functions because methods already have one argument, so might well not any more
(the one arg being the invocant)
ss/not any/not want any/ 22:30
diakopter what's ss/// 22:31
TimToady s:sigspace 22:32
_ash where is the <ident> regex defined? i haven't found it yet 22:33
pmichaud in nqp
it's part of the regex library of builtins
Tene -ash: you mean in the Perl 6 specs, yes? 22:34
_ash yeah, i was meaning more in the spec, is there an example of what it recognizes as valid?
(was reading S06) 22:35
pmichaud S-5
er, S05
_ash oops, ya i can't copy paste properly
pmichaud no, it doesn't say exactly. I think it's the standard "alpha followed by zero or more alnum" definition, though. 22:37
_ash or _ if i am not mistaken, i just wanted to make sure
Tene including -_' or not?
pmichaud _ is generally considered alpha
ident does not include the -' 22:38
token ident { <.alpha> \w*
}
diakopter m:scrabble/any hing/
PerlJam if ident doesn't contain - or ', then what is the "identifier" regex that does contain those things called? 22:40
_ash \w* i believe
pmichaud "identifier"
token identifier { <.ident> [ <.apostrophe> <.ident> ]*
}
_ash hmm so nqp and rakudo use 2 different definitions of identifier? 22:43
pmichaud I don't think so
note "ident" versus "identifier"
"ident" is the traditional alpha + \w*
_ash well, they both have an ident and an identifier
pmichaud "identifier" is the one that includes apostrophe and hyphen
they're supposed to be the same 22:44
(nqp and rakudo, that is)
_ash in nqp its token identifier { <ident> } 22:46
pmichaud I suspect I just haven't implemented the expanded version yet
PerlJam That's some LHF for others though :) 22:47
_ash so really its any alphnum + - and ' and unicode? or...
is unicode included in alphanum?
pmichaud unicode alnums are included in alnum :-) 22:48
not all of unicode is alnum
Juerd Maybe, just maybe, I should remove that highlight on /unicode/ in my irssi. 22:49
Maybe it's useful to rename either ident or identifier, to avoid confusion. Maybe ident-atom for ident. 22:51
pmichaud that'd be funny, since ident-atom would be the thing that doesn't have the hyphens :) 22:52
PerlJam heh
pmichaud while identifier has no hyphens in its name but it does in what it matches :-)
Juerd pmichaud: Funny is so much better than confusing :)
pmichaud so perhaps identifier should be ident-with-apostrophes-and-hyphens
PerlJam so ... ident and ident-ifier ? :) 22:53
_ash lol
pmichaud ident-if-i-err
diakopter ident-with-'apostrophes'-and-hyphens
Juerd PerlJam: lol
diakopter: Invalid
pmichaud '- isn't valid, though
nor is -'
diakopter oh
pmichaud ident-with-ap'str'phes-and-hyphens
Juerd I suggested ident-atom because that's how rfc2822 calls things. There's atom, and dot-atom, where dot-atom-text is 1*atext *("." 1*atext) 22:54
For example, [email@hidden.address] is a valid address while foo..bar@example.org isn't. 22:55
pmichaud: apo's :)
PerlJam always thinks of apostrophes in a contractive sense, so a really long name is odd in that respect too 22:56
Juerd fakeident, real-ident
There's a fakeident in every real one :)
PerlJam i-d'e'n-t 22:57
i-den't 22:58
Juerd Why not? :)
22:58 wasy is now known as wasy_afk
_ash is there a reason to have both of them? just wondering, i see identifier used a lot but ident not so much 23:00
PerlJam _ash: ou need idents to build an identifier :)
s/ou/you/
Juerd _ash: identifier uses ident. 23:01
_ash true, but ident doesn't have to be called ident
Juerd I think it would be better if it were called something else
pmichaud and the bikeshed doesn't have to be purple.
:-)
_ash but if you make it purple then you can see it from like a block away 23:02
Juerd That depends on the shade of purple
_ash unless your eyes are as bad as mine and you need a new pair of glasses
Juerd It's okay if the bikeshed is purple, if everything surrounding it has sufficiently contrasting colors.
pmichaud it also depends on the neighborhood you live i... what Juerd++ said
Juerd Purple next to navy blue looks horrible
pmichaud that's why we only store green bikes in the purple bikeshed 23:03
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Juerd Currently there are blue bikes in the purple bikeshed. 23:03
Well, at least one :)
Tene I'm still just a little bit grumpy over supporting internal ', but not $a', $a'', etc. 23:05
frettled I think the bikeshed should allow more bikes. ;) 23:06
Juerd Tene: You've never played golf, have you? :)
_ash frettled wants new lines and whitespace in his variable names i bet
my $a␤name = 5; say $a␤; 23:07
frettled _ash: and Unicode free-for-all and a pony 23:08
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pugs_svn r29606 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge for ng1. 23:22
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pugs_svn r29607 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge for ng1. 23:32
23:33 _ash joined, alester joined, alester left 23:34 cotto_work left, eternaleye left, payload joined, cotto_work joined 23:41 eternaleye joined, eternaleye left, eternaleye joined
pugs_svn r29608 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge for ng1. 23:44
colomon jnthn, pmichaud: any notions why S02-whitespace_and_comments/one-pass-parsing.t fails in ng1? 23:46
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colomon S06-routine-modifiers/scoped-named-subs.t -- test #2 gets () and expects ''. Seems to me () is probably right, but I don't know how to code that up. 23:51
(For an "is" test, I mean.)
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pugs_svn r29609 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge for ng1. 23:54
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