»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by diakopter on 25 January 2010.
mberends is the Rakudo release waiting for another Parrot update? r44147 seems to be 2.1.0 00:00
jnthn mberends: Note quite sure what we're waiting on right now... 00:02
chromatic The tarball's ready to go any time.
We're not bumping Parrot HEAD to 2.1.1 because 2.1.1 is 2.1.0 plus a single patch plus a version upgrade. 00:03
jnthn OK.
frettled chromatic: nice blog comment, BTW
chromatic Thanks.
frettled The source file I snarfed that code from isn't _completely_ filled with horrors, it has _some_ sense. Like, it works as intended. :) 00:04
chromatic That's worth something... but you start finding these little annoyances and you start to question much of the rest of the code. 00:05
00:05 frettled sets mode: +ooo chromatic colomon mberends
frettled yep 00:05
My upcoming themes are about excessive use of parentheses for the purpose of avoiding knowledge about operator precedence, and then error/result checking. :) 00:06
«Nah, it's not necessary to check whether the database query went okay before continuing, the database is almost never down.» 00:07
frettled tears his hair in despair.
colomon BTW, my last spectest run (pre- jnthn's slurpy hash opt) took 547 wallclock secs on my MBP. 00:08
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frettled That's PDQ. 00:08
jnthn colomon: Yeah, those kinda times start to get a lot more manageable. 00:09
chromatic jnthn, is that a cache of constant strings I see in the binder?
colomon now if we could just have this level of optimization on about five more days between now and April... 00:10
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jnthn chromatic: Can't use CONST_STRING in there, so faking it out. 00:12
chromatic: Unless you know of a better approach?
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pugs_svn r29779 | lichtkind++ | updated my talk, smaller reduced pictures, more content 00:22
00:23 xinming_ left
colomon oh, hey, I just remembered what I wanted to try... 00:26
chromatic No, just looking at all of the string_new_literal() calls and their results. 00:29
jnthn chromatic: Yeah, lots of garbage? 00:30
chromatic: Do we win much by caching 'em? 00:31
chromatic I'll try that in a bit.
jnthn reckons probably not even a percent or two.
OK.
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dalek kudo/master: e4cdb5b | (Martin Berends)++ | (2 files):
[build/PARROT_REVISION] tentatively set to 44147 2.1.0
 00:43
mberends testing --gen-parrot with the tarball made with Parrot r44147, looks good 00:51
jnthn \o/ 00:52
pmichaud (PARROT_REVISION) let me check the svn history a bit 00:54
btw, latest spectest run on my notebook was 8m58
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pmichaud (still non-parallel) 00:55
mberends about 11min here (well .nl akshually)
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jnthn pmichaud: Wow, that's shattered the ten minute mark nicely then. :-) 00:57
pmichaud the 2.1.1 tag is officially r44149, so we should probably use it.
so, set PARROT_REVISION to 44149 2.1.0 00:58
(I'm okay with leaving it as 44147, also -- 44148 and 44149 are basically documentation updates) 00:59
lue I wonder, is the ability to use modules from other languages (eg. Python) a purely らくど / Parrot thing?
pmichaud lue: we don't know yet.
lue: I would hope that we could make it work on other platforms eventually.
mberends pmichaud: but then the Parrot version is 2.1.0, not 2.1.1 (with r44147 at least) 01:00
pmichaud it doesn't really matter. 2.1.1 doesn't ever really appear in trunk.
lue I would like it to be part of the official spec aswell. Even if it isn't, it's great (no more reinventing the wheel, ever :D)
pmichaud lue: the spec defines the hooks for using modules from other languages. The details are (as yet) left up to individual implementations. 01:01
lue: additional detail by the spec would be very premature at this point.
lue Same way teaching a 7-year old how to walk would be premature </sarcasm> 01:03
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mberends pmichaud: I'm validating the r44147 / 2.1.0 tarball atm, another bump for the doc updates does not seem worth a re-start 01:05
pmichaud lue: don't make the mistake that the specification precedes the implementation :) 01:06
that's generally not how development works.
lue It sure saves you from being creative, though :) 01:07
pmichaud s/saves/prevents/
the specification really can't (and shouldn't) anticipate the issues that are likely to arise in a real implementation
so what we need to do is have implementations explore the design space, and then codify the best answers as part of the spec 01:08
lue ...like implementation (the process)? :)
pmichaud this is the way most open source development occurs. It's certainly the case that Internet standards are formed that way (implementations precede specification)
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lue *note to self* invent XYZZY protocol for internet 01:09
mberends lue: as in, the Waterfall development model was always intended to show how *not* to do it 01:10
pmichaud mberends: wfm
lue not a good place for a note to one's self.
pmichaud mberends: I agree to whatever you decide for the PARROT_REVISION stuff.
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chromatic jnthn, 1.466% performance improvement. 01:11
Not huge.
jnthn chromatic: I'll take it. 01:12
mberends the built-from-tarball Rakudo is working perfectly, will do the git tag and upload shortly
chromatic I can probably get you to 1.8%.
pmichaud mberends++ 01:13
lue Hey, anyone want to use the Swazi emalangeni currency? (its abbreviation is pl)
jnthn mberends: Nice :-)
pmichaud interestingly, this release announcement doesn't say how much of the spectest suite we pass. (I think that's probably okay for this release.)
jnthn ;-) 01:14
pmichaud the numbers I have are significantly off anyway
mberends I hope that in a few minutes I can delegate release_guide step 13 to @you, "Publish the release announcement..." because I have no blog-fu 01:15
pmichaud sure, I'll do the release announcement if nobody else picks it up. :) 01:16
I'm all in favor of encouraging delegation :)
("oh wait, I'm supposed to be delegating to others -- not letting them delegate to me!") 01:17
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pmichaud updates Test::Harness on his laptop to see what sort of results he gets with parallel test runs 01:17
lue alpha: my @you="mberends","pmichaud","jnthn","lue","TimToady","noo"; say "The order of delegation is as follows:"; say @you; 01:19
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is as follows:␤mberendspmichaudjnthnlueTimToadynoo␤»
pmichaud alpha: my @you = <mberends pmichaud jnthn lue TimToady noo>; say "The order of delegation is {@you.pick(*)}"; 01:20
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is TimToady lue jnthn noo pmichaud mberends␤»
pmichaud *snicker*
that's an interesting ordering. :)
mberends suits me ;) 01:21
jnthn Somehow I preferred lue's answer. ;-)
lue alpha: my @you="mberends","pmichaud","jnthn","lue","TimToady","noo"; say "The order of delegation is as follows:"; say @you[1]; 01:22
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is as follows:␤pmichaud␤»
lue :D
pmichaud D'oh!
lue alpha: my $TimToady=True; say "Alpha, do you prefer Mr. Wall over everyone else? {$TimToady}" 01:24
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Alpha, do you prefer Mr. Wall over everyone else? 1␤»
colomon rakudo: my @you="mberends","pmichaud","jnthn","lue","TimToady","noo"; say "The order of delegation is as follows:"; say @you.pick(*, :replace).batch(10).join(' '); 01:25
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is as follows:␤No candidates found to invoke␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
colomon drat
jnthn fail
lue try alpha, then pugs, then ng.
alpha: my @you="mberends","pmichaud","jnthn","lue","TimToady","noo"; say "The order of delegation is as follows:"; say @you.pick(*, :replace).batch(10).join(' '); 01:27
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is as follows:␤Infinite lazy pick not implemented␤in method »
lue Aowww! colomon! :) 01:28
pugs: my @you="mberends","pmichaud","jnthn","lue","TimToady","noo"; say "The order of delegation is as follows:"; say @you.pick(*, :replace).batch(10).join(' '); 01:29
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«The order of delegation is as follows:␤*** No compatible multi variant found: "&pick"␤ at /tmp/GIbwTiQNgU line 1, column 113-155␤»
pmichaud mmmmm
lue I liked alpha the best.
pmichaud on my notebook, parallel spectest completes in 5m30
*wow*
jnthn The interesting thing is that we must have sped up overall.
In terms of pure method and sub dispatch speeds, we were once a bit faster in alpha (not now though). 01:30
lue alpha: use rakudo; say "wow, it worked."; 01:35
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Can't find ./rakudo in @*INC␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
pmichaud afk for a while
colomon I just finished a stupidish comparison
If you copy master's spectest to alpha, it runs in 913 wallclock on my system. 01:36
That's versus 547 for my current master build.
My guess is most of that is probably in trig, but still, not bad.
jnthn Really not bad.
colomon particularly considering a number of the test files don't exist in alpha, or error out very quickly. 01:37
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jnthn Quite. 01:38
lue Verily. 01:39
Therefore... Ergo
jnthn I may re-write the multi-dispatch cache next week.
See what time I got and what other tempting things there are to hack on. 01:40
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colomon I think I'll take a stab at properly implementing .pick, and maybe try to get ... more in line with TimToady++'s crazy schemes. 01:40
jnthn Those would both be great things to do. 01:41
Getting .sort / .min / .max back in the next week would also be a very cool thing.
colomon jnthn: we have at least stupid versions of .min and .max right now, I think. 01:42
jnthn Ah, OK
I plan to continue general triage/re-enabling of S12 and S14 tests too.
quietfanatic What is 'alpha'? Is it the p6-on-p5 thing? 01:43
colomon rakudo: say (5...1).max
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«5␤»
jnthn quietfanatic: alpha = what we renmaed old master to.
colomon quietfanatic: alpha is the old version of Rakudo.
quietfanatic oh, huh
jnthn quietfanatic: It's just a branch that holds Rakudo before we made the ng branch be master. 01:44
colomon rakudo: say (5...1).max({ -$^a <=> -$^b })
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«1␤»
quietfanatic Okay, I get it now
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lue basically, my %development = {master => alpha, ng => master} 01:44
#to abuse the term "hash" 01:45
colomon rakudo: say (5...12).max({ $^a leg $^b }); 01:46
jnthn
.oO( better than actually abusing hash )
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«9␤»
colomon rakudo: say (5...12).min({ $^a leg $^b })
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«10␤»
colomon I think I tried to get .min and .max working well enough to pass minmax.t, and failed. But they mostly work. 01:47
jnthn rakudo: class Drink { has $.name; has $.price }; my @bar = Drink.new(name => 'beer', price => 1.10), Drink.new(name => 'wine', price => 2.50); my $cheapest = @bar.cheapest({$_.price}); say $cheapest.name; 01:49
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Method 'cheapest' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
jnthn rakudo: class Drink { has $.name; has $.price }; my @bar = Drink.new(name => 'beer', price => 1.10), Drink.new(name => 'wine', price => 2.50); my $cheapest = @bar.min({$_.price}); say $cheapest.name;
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected between 0 and 1␤current instr.: '_block83' pc 679 (EVAL_1:234)␤»
jnthn rakudo: class Drink { has $.name; has $.price }; my @bar = Drink.new(name => 'beer', price => 1.10), Drink.new(name => 'wine', price => 2.50); my $cheapest = @bar.min({$^x.price}); say $cheapest.name;
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block83' pc 679 (EVAL_1:234)␤» 01:50
jnthn Ah, not that form yet.
colomon Hmmm... I remember that form now, but I don't actually see it in the spec? 01:51
nor is it tested in minmax.t, as far as I can see. 01:52
Seems like it would be pretty easy to implement, though...
did we actually release? when can we start checking in changes again? ;) 01:53
mberends no, just testing, testing the tarball 01:54
colomon just as well, I have a lot of other stuff I should be working on. 01:55
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coke Ok. Parrot 2.1.1 is released. 01:56
mberends the tarball (using 2.1.0) should be uploaded in just a few minutes
lichtkind great 01:57
conrats to you all
colomon coke: Thank you again for this rush job rescue.
jnthn coke: Indeed.
:-)
Wow. Rakudo did well today. :-) 01:58
colomon :)
jnthn OK, 3am, I guess I should consider getting a little sleep :-) 01:59
colomon seems like a good plan.
coke jnthn, colomon; glad to help. cutting a release is now pretty braindead. 02:00
chromatic++ for the bugfix.
lue goodnight, jnthn. (Wow, I wish I were in Europe. Then I wouldn't be up when you guys aren't) :)
jnthn Yeah, Europe is The Awesome! 02:01
;-)
colomon poor lue, having to suffer along with me, pmichaud, and TimToady...
02:02 jferrero left
jnthn lol 02:02
Anyways...
dobru noc o/
colomon good night.
02:03 ShaneC left
lue goodnight o/ o/ o/ o/ (see, I'm a crowd of people :D ) 02:03
making the novelty P6 16 month calendar... thinking I should make jnthn a month name (uncapitalized, of course) 02:05
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quietfanatic rakudo: class X {method x (*@_) {say @_} }; X.new.x(5) 02:07
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Placeholder variables cannot be used in a method at line 11, near "}; X.new.x"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
quietfanatic There's an error for ya
colomon rakudo: class X {method x () {say @_} }; X.new.x(5) 02:11
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Placeholder variables cannot be used in a method at line 11, near "}; X.new.x"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
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lue /o\ timeout alert! Run for cover! Achtung! timeout alert! /o\ 02:19
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lue hello? 02:38
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bkeeler hello! 02:40
lue hello! 02:42
colomon hello!
bkeeler Sure gets quiet when those noisy euros go to bed eh?
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lue (again, with gusto) HELLO! 02:44
bkeeler HELLLLOOOOOO...LLOOOO...OOOoo.....oooo.......
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lue (huff, huff) HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 02:45
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
colomon rakudo: say +"hello" 02:49
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«0␤»
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lue rakudo: say hello to the class; that's okay, take your time; say hello!; 02:51
p6eval rakudo e4cdb5: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say hello "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
lue darn, I thought it was an english language interpreter. :)
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coke goooooooooooooooooooooodnight everybody. 03:23
03:23 coke left
chromatic Wow, the spectests are 25% faster than they were last time I checked (after a couple of optimizations). 03:26
5m 35s for me, with 5 parallel jobs.
Trashlord cool 03:27
colomon chromatic: is that additional optimizations of yours, or what jnthn++ was working on earlier?
chromatic Both, but mostly jnthns. 03:28
I also have a Parrot patch to reduce the number of constants in PBC.
colomon \o/
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chromatic The cut-down trig tests are 17.271% faster. 03:34
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colomon nice. 03:36
mberends ok, the 2010.02 release tarball is uploaded. It required re-booting to something with Flash to do the Github upload, something a bit foreign to a Linux user. 03:37
colomon \o/ and ick. 03:38
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mberends updated en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakudo_Perl as per release guide 03:44
that's the release done, apart from @you copying the release announcement to rakudo.org, perl6.org etc 03:46
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lue Hey... how come everyone's here when I'm not? :( 04:05
mberends everybody went over there, only you and I are here 04:06
lue where's there? 04:07
mberends dunno. otherwise I might go myself
snarkyboojum if I run the spectest how do I interpret the timing results? i.e. do I look at the wallclock secs or.. 04:08
lue The least they could do is mark themselves away... (see my gripe yesterday @ about this time in the backlogs)
mberends snarkyboojum: yes, wallclock times. They came down a lot today. 04:09
snarkyboojum 547 on my lappy
snarkyboojum does a bit of reading about wallclock time :) 04:10
lue enquires snarkyboojum about the bandersnatches lately :D
snarkyboojum banderwahh? :)
mberends lue: asking these people to all do something is like trying to herd cats, and they're distributed globally
snarkyboojum oh :) 04:11
bkeeler my bandersnatches have been a bit frumious lately
colomon I suspect wallclock time is literal, and therefore not the best measure of time, but it's fine for getting the general notion of progress... which was good today!
snarkyboojum nice to see it maxing out both my cores 04:12
colomon and hopefully not maxing out your ram. :) 04:13
snarkyboojum ~90% user and 10% system - b00m!
plenty of ram left
lue snarkyboojum: Lewis Carrol's Hunting of the Snark. 04:15
snarkyboojum lue: aye :) (bit slow in the afternoon heat here) 04:16
mberends afk & # sleep
lue Good thing I don't vanish upon seeing boojums.
snarkyboojum heh indeedy
lue is continuing work on the P6 novelty calendar system... 04:17
lue discovers Linux Action Show! and is now hoping it's streamed in Ogg/Theora 04:19
snarkyboojum lue: checked Linux Outlaws out? 04:23
lue no, ne'er heard of it (I rarely look for videos. So few are in Ogg AND I've an old PowerBook to boot)
snarkyboojum oh, LA is just a podcast 04:24
LO even
lue I just hope it streams in OGG, then I have a fighting chance :) 04:25
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lue They ought to use an HTML5 player as well (I can't use flash (don't want to) ) 04:26
snarkyboojum finds the idea of a video show on Linux quite amusing - the fake background is hilarious :) 04:28
lue Have they ever used the TARDIS as a background? Or how about an ASCII art picture of Linus Torvalds/Larry Wall/etc ? 04:30
snarkyboojum 563 wallclock secs on that run of the spectest
or perhaps a collage of o'reilly animals :P
lue .u £ 04:33
phenny U+00A3 POUND SIGN (£)
lue Perl6 goal #1: execute at superluminal speeds. 04:35
snarkyboojum I noticed I could send rakudo into apoplexy if I do > say 'a' .. '£' 04:36
never returns...
lue alpha: say 'a' .. '£' 04:42
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz␤»
lue hee hee
snarkyboojum I didn't want to try it here with the rakudo eval bot (or whatever it's called) 04:43
lue then I will 04:47
rakudo: say 'a' .. '£'
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: ( no output )
snarkyboojum oh it timesout :P 04:48
rakudo: say ('a'..'£').WHAT 04:49
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«Range()␤»
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lue alpha: say ord('a') 04:51
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«97␤»
lue alpha: say ord('£') 04:52
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«163␤»
lue that range (if I were to implement it) should print every ascii character from 97 to 163
s/ascii/unicode/ 04:54
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snarkyboojum rakudo: say ('a' .. '£').to 04:59
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«£␤»
snarkyboojum rakudo: say ('a' .. '£').from
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«a␤»
lue rakudo: say 'a' ... '£' 05:03
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: ( no output )
snarkyboojum rakudo: say ord('£') 05:07
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«163␤»
05:08 lue left
snarkyboojum ah, it never gets to '£' because it's going to 'z' then 'aa' then 'zz' then 'aaa' and so on 05:20
rakudo: say 'aaa' after '£' 05:21
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«0␤»
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pmichaud hmmm 05:47
why do I keep getting bumped from #perl6?
chromatic Sir, we require gentlemen to wear jackets. 05:52
pmichaud yes, but what does that have to do with me? ;-) 05:53
chromatic You're scaring the lobsters?
spinclad (net turbulence around feather?) 06:00
(ruffled feathers)
pmichaud no, I'm only being kicked from #perl6 -- I'm still connected to feather, and to other irc channels on freenode 06:01
bkeeler Ahhh, glass of beer, warm dog curled up on my toes, Ashkenazy playing chopin, learning cool new stuff... does life get any better?
spinclad dunno then... backlog shows a bunch of timeouts from feather, most of whom came right back but not you. 06:03
probably the lobsters, then, as c said 06:05
pmichaud weird.
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snarkyboojum rakudo: say 'z'.succ 06:51
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«aa␤»
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Su-Shee good morning 07:25
spinclad good dark of night, Su-Shee 07:29
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snarkyboojum alpha: say 'a'.succ 08:16
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«b␤»
snarkyboojum alpha: say 'z'.succ
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«aa␤»
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snarkyboojum alpha: 'aa' after 'z' 08:18
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "after 'z'"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
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moritz_ good morning 08:22
vamped guten Morgan 08:25
08:37 alinbsp joined 08:46 Chillance joined
colomon o/ 08:49
mathw o/ 08:52
mberends o/ 08:57
moritz_: the 2010.02 release is all done, apart from mailing the the docs/announce/2010.02 file to the mailing lists, and blogging, because I'm not active in those spheres. Would you be able to do that final bit? 09:00
moritz_ mberends: surewilldo 09:01
mberends thanks moritz_ :)
vamped alpha: say (^10).pick(*)
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«9260785314␤»
vamped rakudo: say (^10).pick(*) 09:02
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«No candidates found to invoke␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
vamped Is this considered a bug, or NYI ? (and how does one tell?)
colomon vamped: only no argument .pick implemented so far
if I get time from $work, that's one of my goals for today. 09:03
rakudo: say (^10).pick
p6eval rakudo 8fdc94: OUTPUT«3␤»
vamped good luck implementing that 09:04
09:04 Guna left
moritz_ mail to p6a sent 09:05
mberends :)
colomon I don't think it will be too bad. there's a decent finite implementation in alpha to crib from, and the infinite form is easy
moritz_++
mberends++
mberends (teamwork)++ 09:06
moritz_ rakudo.org/node/64 and now blogged 09:07
indeed mberends++ for the release
mberends blushes and bows
mathw looks at pick and finds it to be interesting 09:12
colomon mathw: are you looking at the spec, or the commented out implementation in Any-list.pm? 09:16
mathw implementation
colomon I don't remember what didn't work that got me to comment it out... 09:17
mathw the replacing version looks sane
I haven't tried actually running it :)
colomon something wasn't working, else I wouldn't have fallen back to the 0-arg version. :) 09:18
but then, it's been a couple of weeks since then, a lot has happened! 09:19
hmmm... compiles 09:21
> say (1..20).pick(5, :replace)
7101763
> say (1..20).pick(*, :replace).batch(10)
Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'
ah, $num ~~ Whatever isn't working. 09:24
mathw interesting 09:27
you could enable the non-Whatever form though
colomon or I could keep fighting with it. :) 09:29
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moritz_ the Whatever non-replace one should be implemented with a Fisher-Yates shuffle 09:31
it's a common case that deserves a fast algorithm
colomon reference please? 09:32
vamped en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%...es_shuffle
moritz_ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher–Yates_shuffle 09:33
moritz_ too slow
09:33 moritz_ sets mode: +oo colomon vamped
vamped sorry to steal your topic, lol 09:33
moritz_ no problem :-)
09:34 payload left
colomon > say (1..20).pick(*, :replace).batch(20).perl 09:36
(17, 12, 10, 7, 16, 2, 2, 8, 5, 12, 2, 13, 7, 3, 3, 17, 14, 1, 2, 16)
09:36 iblechbot left
colomon > say (1..20).pick(*).batch(30).perl 09:39
(13, 4, 6, 3, 20, 9, 10, 5, 1, 18, 8, 12, 17, 7, 2, 19, 15, 16, 14, 11)
okay, I appear to have all the basic forms working now. I'll take a look at F-Y once the tests pass. 09:40
mathw \o/
vamped thanks colomon.
F-Y s looks interesting moritz. I'll have to finish reading after sleep. 'night all. 09:41
colomon night.
moritz_ 'night
09:41 vamped left 09:42 mssm left
mathw I like how the Wikipedia article gives numerous incorrect implementations which are subject to modulo bias, then doesn't bother explaining what that is or how to fix it until after the pen-and-paper working section 09:42
I suppose I could tweak the article a bit, but it's only been an hour since breakfast 09:43
frettled mathw: How about now, it's been an hour and two minutes since breakfast! 09:45
Good TOD, BTW.
colomon ok ?(@array.pick eq any <a b c d>), "pick works on arrays";
Method 'Str' not found for invocant of class 'Junction' 09:46
moritz_ so it doesn't autothread
but coerces to Str
colomon seems like.
I don't think I'm up for fixing that right now.
In fact, I've got the boy back in bed, so I should be off to bed myself.
Is it okay to check new code into Rakudo again (post-release)? 09:47
moritz_ sleep well
colomon I see the release has been tagged...
moritz_ aye
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colomon !!!!! 09:58
spectest down to 475 wallclock secs 09:59
chromatic++
.pick pushed, time for sleep
moritz_ must have missed something - what did chromatic++ do?
chromatic jnthn had a lot to do with that too.
10:12 fridim_ left
frettled /o\ OMG OMG OMG this code sucks. :( $var = `cat filenamehiddendeepsomewhere | grep STRING`; 10:14
itz is there a canonical and maintained perl6 cheatsheet in any repos now? (perlmonks.org/?node_id=238031) I thought it used to be in pugs 10:16
moritz_ no 10:22
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moritz_ there must be a cheat sheet somewhere, but it's surely outdate 10:39
10:42 chromatic left 10:46 fridim_ joined 10:47 masak joined
masak oh hai, #perl6! 10:48
moritz_ [o] 10:51
masak tries to translate that smiley to a human stance, and fails :) 10:52
moritz_: did someone shut you into the box in Schrödinger's lab? 10:53
I'd open it, but I'm afraid of the state I'd find you in.
moritz_ the box is made by a crazy firebird database on one side, and DBD::InterBase on the other 10:54
masak huh.
boxed in by db stuff.
10:56 mssm joined
moritz_ cut -d '/' -f 5 < dbs | while read i; do echo "drop database $i" | mysql -u $user -p$password -h $host; done 10:58
I can't help but feel some grim satisfacton while running this command :-)
mathw found a pesky deadlock! 11:08
masak today's topic: OT :) 11:14
moritz_ locks the OT topic dead 11:17
jnthn oh hai
masak lolitsjnthn 11:18
jnthn yayitsmasak 11:19
ooh, yay. chromatic++ did The String Thing for the extra bonus performance win. :-) 11:20
masak chromatic++
11:21 meppl joined
jnthn loves how in the last 8 commits, six of them were performance enhancements. :-) 11:21
masak rakudo: class X {method x (*@_) {say @_} }; X.new.x(5) 11:26
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Placeholder variables cannot be used in a method at line 11, near "}; X.new.x"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak whoz op with that?
moritz_ b0rkaged 11:28
jnthn masak: Probably it's being a bit over-eager.
moritz_ rakudo: class X {method x {say @_} }; X.new.x(5) 11:29
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Placeholder variables cannot be used in a method at line 11, near "}; X.new.x"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
jnthn masak: The "we has @_ and we're in a method so cry" check probably wants to also check "is @_ defined already".
And not worry about it if so.
masak submits rakudobug
quietfanatic++ for discovering it
11:41 gfx joined
jnthn lol 11:42
"is this the satnav operator" :-)
Some days, p6l is really worth reading. :-)
masak yeah, that one was excellent. 11:43
11:44 fridim_ left
masak I give up. I'm down to one inexplicable step, but that one is *really* inexplicable. I don't grok Deutsch's algorithm. :( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch–Jozsa_algorithm 11:48
mathw your tweet about it suggests it's quantum 11:49
therefore
HEAD ASPLODE
masak mathw: I'm working on removing exactly that irrational fear of QC :) 11:51
mathw: there's really no magic involved, just an L2-norm instead of an L1-norm.
jnthn Already sounds like magic. :-)
masak nono, it's easy! really! 11:52
what we observe are still ordinary probabilities between 0 and 1.
jnthn :-)
masak but they're caused by underlying values which can be negative or complex.
thus, when they're added together, they sometimes cancel out, unlike ordinary probabilities. 11:53
this explains all the quantum weirdness.
I just wish I understood how :P
mathw I'm going to worry about it when there's a quantum computer I might want to program 11:57
Conventional computers are bad enough! 11:58
masak mathw: for some reason, that reminds me of the people who say they're not going to check out Perl 6 when until there's a production implementation :) 12:00
& 12:01
mathw well that's silly
although if they don't have time, that's fair enough
but nobody's even entirely sure if we can build a quantum computer yet
although it will be handy to have had people thinking about how to program them at such time that it's accomplished, so that they can be used straight away :) 12:02
I just don't think one of those people needs to be me
masak still sounds pretty analogous to me :P 12:03
& (really)
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mberends is with mathw on the quantum computer thing 12:15
12:17 mssm left 12:19 Trashlord left
colomon o/ 12:20
afk # son started crying just as I hit enter there. 12:21
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colomon is starting to intensely hate pick.t 12:57
13:02 gfx left
moritz_ why is that? 13:03
colomon I'm suspicious you could write a pick function that always returned the first element in the list you pass it, and still pass pick.t...
masak mathw, mberends: if I eventually grok the Deutsch algorithm, I will implement it in Perl 6 and blog about it.
colomon It tests a zillion things which we can't do which aren't pick related, but is very stupid about its actual pick tests, as nearly as I can tell.
moritz_ colomon: I hope it at least tests that @list.pick(*) returns each item once? 13:04
colomon yes, once.
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colomon There's one test which tests that you don't get the elements back in the same order. 13:07
masak you might.
colomon but we can't use it now because it uses xx
masak: yeah, I know. 13:08
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masak colomon: so it's kind of a crappy test. 13:08
colomon masak: it tries ten shuffles in a row and asserts they are not equal to the source array ten times in a row. 13:09
moritz_ it would be great to have some tests for minimal entropy for both rand() and pick
but that would require significant effort, and probably also quite some run time
masak colomon: that sounds familiar. I think I've seen that file sometime.
moritz_ because it would be a statistical test
jnthn colomon: heh, so it randomly fails? :-) 13:10
colomon moritz_: there actually is a skipped test like that in rand.t
jnthn: failure should be very unlikely.
jnthn Well, probably.
;-)
moritz_ jnthn: a test is allowed to fail randomly is the likelyhood is small enough
like those statistical prime tests
colomon but looking at them again, I think returning source list in reverse sorted order probably passes every test they have.
jnthn :-)
moritz_ there chances of failure are smaller than that cosmic rays influence the result of your computation 13:11
colomon: then it should not be compared to the original list, but to the first shuffle result
jnthn During a high level of solar flare activity or a low one?
:-)
Anyway, yes, point taken. ;_)
13:11 moritz_ sets mode: +o jnthn
moritz_ "in statistic mean" 13:12
colomon my bigger complaint, though, is that the test also depends on junctions autothreading, hashes listifying, sort, xx, and gather / take. 13:13
so here I'm hoping for a nice test file that can let me know if I've got the (not yet done) port to Fisher/Yates correct. 13:14
and what I've got is a test file that will take weeks before we can get it working correctly, and doesn't really test shuffling to any great extent.
moritz_ I understand you complaints, yes 13:16
masak colomon: that's a very valid complaint. 13:17
heh. I've started on my E03 implementation. I can't help noting that alpha has :e and :s, but not :r and :w... :) 13:18
colomon admits his best thoughts for testing shuffles involve [<] and [>], also complicated ops which are NYI
masak it's always possible to explain high-level, sugary operations and tests in terms of lower levels and more primitive components. 13:20
fwiw, that's what I've spent the last year-and-a-half doing :P
moritz_ sub is_sorted(@a) { @a eq @a.sort }; 13:21
that's rather close to [<=] 13:22
masak moritz_++
colomon but relies on sort and is relatively slow. :)
Probably better just to revert to C programming tricks... 13:23
sub checknotall(@a is copy, $code) { my $last = @a.unshift; for @a { return true if $code($last, $_); $last = $_; } 13:25
something like that
er, with a return False at the end.
13:29 meppl left, IllvilJa left 13:41 pausenclown joined
masak hm, there's no way to open a file for reading-and-writing in alpha, is there? 13:42
the PIR routine in src/builtins/io.pir seems to suggest that an :r adverb overrides a :w adverb. and there's no :rw adverb. 13:43
mberends ugh :(
13:43 athenot joined
masak submits rakudo-TODO RT ticket about that 13:44
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jnthn It was pretty much copied from master, afaik. 13:44
mberends generally to make use of :rw, you would need seek() and a binary mode as well 13:45
masak jnthn: not checked ng/master yet. just assuming it hasn't been fixed :)
IO needs love in Rakudo.
as does everything to do with binary modes.
mberends how long does it take to get one's head around perl6.ops and the binder? 13:46
masak depends on the stretchability of the head :P
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 13:47
pausenclown rakudo: "123" ~~ / <[ a..z ]> ::: { fail "ugh" } /
mberends the last 20% of docs/compiler_overview.pod is overrunning its 80% of the time
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«::: not yet implemented at line 11, near " { fail \"u"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
mberends goodday pmichaud
pausenclown hi
masak good morning, pmichaud. 13:48
colomon o/
jnthn mberends: The binder is fairly straightforwardish, imo.
mberends: Well commented, at least. :-)
pausenclown rakudo: "123" ~~ / <[ a..z ]> { fail "ugh" } /; say $!
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
pausenclown mmh 13:49
mberends jnthn++ the comments are good, at a low level, but lack some overview
masak pausenclown: that's a bug, you figure?
pausenclown: want to submit it to RT? 13:50
pmichaud ...why is that a bug?
pausenclown i don't know it's a bug or not.
masak pausenclown: the pmichaud reply seems to imply it's not :)
mberends jnthn: your blog article makes it *look* easy, use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/39772 13:51
masak so, where *would* the 'ugh' end up?
pmichaud we never reach the 'ugh'
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masak oh! 13:51
of course. :P
pausenclown rakudo: "123" ~~ / [ <[ a..z ]> || { fail "ugh" } ] /; say $!
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Mu()␤» 13:52
pmichaud okay, that's more of a bug :)
masak pausenclown: shall you or I submit it?
pmichaud ooc, what *should* happen there?
pausenclown I'm just toying around
masak pausenclown++
13:53 johnz left
masak pausenclown: still. it's a new discovery. 13:53
pmichaud does fail set $! ?
masak not that I know.
pausenclown The Exexgesis says it should.
pmichaud heh
pausenclown S05
masak that's a synopsis.
pmichaud Exegesis tend to be waaaaay out of date.
masak indeed. 13:54
13:54 moritz_ sets mode: +ooo pmichaud masak pausenclown
pausenclown That they tell me now 13:54
pmichaud I can't find any instance of $! in S05.
jnthn mberends: Maybe the best way is to consider a signature, and then work through what the code would do.
masak pmichaud: where, according to you, would the 'ugh' end up?
pausenclown my bad
moritz_ I've asked TimToady where parsing error message (like from fail or from ~ ) end up 13:55
pausenclown rakudo: "123" ~~ / [ <[ a..z ]> || { fail "ugh" } ] /; say $/
pmichaud masak: I have no idea, actually, thus my question :)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
jnthn fail is like a return.
moritz_ and so far I haven't got an understandable answer
jnthn afaik
pmichaud what jnthn++ said.
fail returns an object that throws an exception when it's used.
jnthn Given we're only in a closure, it probably causes us to fall out of the entire regex.
masak considers all the ambient confusion a bug and submits that
pmichaud actually, I think we might fall out of the surrounding sub.
jnthn Well, other question: is an anonymous regex and a named regex different? 13:56
pmichaud because a regex is more like a block than a sub in this case.
jnthn Yeah
Probably fall from surrounding sub here.
pmichaud that might be the case... but I'm not certain of that either. :)
jnthn Whether if that'd been a regex { ... } though...
pausenclown "The call to fail causes the match to fail at that point, and sets an associated error message that would subsequently appear in the $! error variable (and which would also be accessible as part of $0)."
jnthn pausenclown: Where's that from? 13:57
pausenclown dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/exe/E05.html
jnthn Oh
It begins with an E
pmichaud E05 also says...
jnthn ...a lot of other out of date stuff.
;-)
pmichaud [Update: Please note that this was written several years ago, and
a number of things have changed since then. Rather than changing
the original document, we'll be inserting "Update" notes like this
one to tell you where the design has since evolved. (For the better,
we hope). In any event, for the latest Perl 6 design (or to figure out
pausenclown granted. what should i read instead_
pmichaud any cryptic remarks below) you should read the Synopses, which are kept
very much more up-to-date than either the Apocalypses or Exegeses.]
masak Exx are so out-of-date. that's why they're so interesting! 13:58
mberends jnthn: I'll do that in a little while. Right now I'm in the Makefile, figuring out what language perl6.ops is written in: "It's C, Jim, but not as we know it" ;) OPS2C must be the clue...
pausenclown The Synopsys is too short/sparse for my taste 13:59
masak pausenclown: then you might try moritz_++'s stuff.
moritz_ or the book
but it's not very complete yet
masak or the Advent Calendar.
moritz_ or perl6.org - it links to all that stuff
jnthn mberends: It's preprocessed by Parrot into a .c file. 14:00
mberends: er
14:00 jferrero left
jnthn mberends: By a Parrot build tool. 14:00
mberends by build/ops2c.pl 14:01
jnthn yup
It is basically C
mberends 98% C
jnthn Wrapped up in op bodies
And $1 style thingies which just refer to registers.
mberends 2% riddle/mystery/enigma
moritz_ "just enough syntactic sugar for confusion" 14:02
mberends heh. yes :)
jnthn ;-)
pausenclown damn. i just burned my bolognese 14:04
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pmichaud did the release announcement go out? 14:08
14:08 cognominal joined
pausenclown alpha: say "abc" ~~ m/a(bc){my $foo = $0}/ 14:08
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "{my $foo ="␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
mberends pmichaud: moritz_++ did it for us
pausenclown ok, this is straight from the synopsis =) 14:09
pmichaud okay -- it doesn't appear to have landed in my email yet.
masak but I didn't see any email on p6c or p6u.
colomon pmichaud: I thought moritz_++ did it at about 4am EST.
mberends delegation fail
pausenclown Is this closure thing implemented at all?
pmichaud pausenclown: alpha doesn't know how to do closures in regexes -- that's strictly in the new version
jnthn rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m/a(bc){my $foo = $0}/
pausenclown The one which has been announced 14:10
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«abc␤»
pausenclown ?
moritz_ pmichaud: I've sent the mail to p6a, but it seems to hang in the moderation filter
pmichaud moritz_: okay, just wanted to make sure someone had taken care of it. :) moritz_++
pausenclown: yes, the one that was just released
pausenclown Nothing to see at PM 14:11
mberends I had tried that too, to p6l p6a p6c and p6u and assumed they were rejected by some filter
14:12 alinbsp left
pausenclown whats this /p6./ thing about_ 14:12
moritz_ pausenclown: short for perl6-{user,announce,compiler,language} mailing lists 14:13
mberends pausenclown: dev.perl.org/perl6/lists/
pausenclown
.oO( damn acer kezboard )
ah. thanks
moritz_ mberends: nooow, link to perl6.org/community/ :-)
mberends re-programs 14:14
pmichaud we really _should_ update the dev.perl.org/perl6 pages somehow. :-| 14:19
mberends they were updated recently, this is the result ;-) 14:20
moritz_ it is updated in many ways already, and much better than half a year ago
mberends bashes head against moritz_
moritz_ runs away (not related to mberends' head bashing) 14:21
pausenclown helmet, anyone?
mberends yes, please! 14:22
masak $fh.get(4) still gets me four lines from the filehandle $fh, no? 14:23
jnthn pmichaud++ # glad you agreed on find_name 14:24
pausenclown so,,, then $fh.get(*) should slurp, no? 14:25
gawd, i hate this laptop
masak pausenclown: yes, but there's also $fh.lines() which does that. 14:26
mberends masak: perlcabal.org/syn/S32/IO.html does not seem to spec an arg for $fh.get(), it seems to default to 1 line 14:27
pmichaud jnthn: the whole reason "find_sub_not_null" was created was because it was important to preserve the existing semantics of "find_name". :)
masak mberends: so... is it $fh.lines(4), then?
mberends yes 14:28
masak kthx
jnthn pmichaud: Right. 14:29
pmichaud: I just feared that thread was starting to get a little traction and figured it was time to step in with a "no don't do it" :-)
pmichaud jnthn: I mentioend in the conference call last week that I was a bit concerned that many changes were being proposed (and prototyped) for Parrot that were likely to cause problems, but that I didn't want to put myself in the role of "Parrot history cop" 14:30
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jnthn pmichaud: I haven't been watching it at all really... :-/ 14:31
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pausenclown lunch! 14:40
pugs_svn r29780 | duff++ | [S03] minor typos 14:41
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masak no &seek and no &truncate in Rakudo... :/ 14:43
PerlJam TimToady: I'm not sure what you were trying to say at S03:1855 . It looks like s/arrange// is warranted, but "as long as you return it as a list value" seems odd to me in a different way. 14:44
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masak if I have a filehandle open for reading, can I close it and re-open the same filehandle for writing instead? 14:46
if not, does the filehandle store and expose which file path it is a filehandle of?
since I'm assuming the answer to both these questions re Rakudo is 'no', I'm asking re Perl 6. 14:47
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masak alpha: my @ = 1, 2, 3 14:50
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 10, near "@ = 1, 2, "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
masak rakudo: my @ = 1, 2, 3
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Malformed my at line 11, near "@ = 1, 2, "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak submits rakudobug
pausenclown whad did you expect here, masak? I mean, the array has no nam 14:52
e
masak pausenclown: :)
pmichaud std: my @ = 1, 2, 3
p6eval std 29779: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
masak pausenclown: what pmichaud/STD.pm said.
rakudo: my % = foo => 1, bar => 2 14:53
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Malformed my at line 11, near "% = foo =>"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak rakudo: my $ = 'OH HAI'
pausenclown std: my @ = 1, 2, 3; say @[1]
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Malformed my at line 11, near "$ = 'OH HA"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
std 29779: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/GjxufXToMv line 1:␤------> my @ = 1, 2, 3; say @⏏[1]␤ expecting twigil␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤»
mberends masak: a filehandle that you close is not a filehandle any more. Your next open() would create a new filehandle. Filehandles cannot tell you what their filepath is, the language would have to cache that, which would be a performance hit for the programs that don't ask for it.
masak mberends: thanks for the explanation. here's why I'm wondering: dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/exe/E03.html 14:54
mberends: that program, interrupted by out-of-date updates as it is, does its business by passing filehandles between subroutines.
mberends: that makes sense when there's &seek and &truncate, but not so much so without them :/
mberends: so I think I'll be forced to pass the filepath around instead. 14:55
colomon What the heck is that program supposed to be doing, anyway?
mberends yes. the Unix system interface has a reopen(), I think, to change modes
masak colomon: show off lots of operators :P 14:56
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masak colomon: (yes, the use case is "a bit" forced.) 14:56
pausenclown: when you declare '$', '@' or '%', you're basically throwing data into a hole. 14:57
pausenclown: its primary use is in sub/method sugnatures when you need to declare a param, but don't want to use it. 14:58
mberends masak: absolutely needs seek() and truncate(). And if the file encoding is utf-8, the implementation will crawl :( 14:59
masak o.O
mberends: I've seen seek-like algorithms for utf8 that are quite fast, though. very little overhead. 15:00
mberends that gives us a glimmer of hope :)
jnthn I suspect you won't open a binary file as utf-8. :-) 15:01
masak mberends: found it! :) www.daemonology.net/blog/2008-06-05...trlen.html
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mberends jnthn: no, alpha choked on favicon files in HTTP::Daemon after utf-8 was enforced 15:01
masak we had encoding problems in November for a while. viklund++ did an excellent job at solving them. 15:02
pausenclown jnthn: what if u want to read a file backwards?
masak s/solving/working around/ 15:03
PerlJam pausenclown: that's crazy talk! :)
masak pausenclown: read it forwards, and do .flip on the result :)
pausenclown it is not
masak pausenclown: ¿uʍop ǝpısdn ǝןıɟ ɐ pɐǝɹ oʇ ʇuɐʍ noʎ ɟı ʇɐɥʍ 15:04
pausenclown now, that is crazy talk.
PerlJam masak++ 15:05
pausenclown nice trick, though.
masak bows
mberends masak: impressive utf-8 handlers! I think Objective-C and OSX string libraries implement something like that. I had ideas of doing similar things for native utf-8 in vill, before TimToady++ talked me out of it. Applying it to files would still crawl, however :( 15:07
jnthn
.oO( Str.^add_method('mirror_text', ...) )
masak mberends: yes. I guess it's still O(n) rather than O(1). :/ 15:08
mberends yep
masak jnthn: I guess one shouldn't be able to do that without MONKEY_TYPING enabled?
mberends masak: thanks for the utf-8 ideas though, it may be worth reconsidering for vill :) 15:09
masak mberends: you're welcome. I'm glad I found it. Google++ 15:10
pausenclown time to play some crossfire (crossfire.z8games.com/). come and get me =) 15:13
jnthn masak: You probably can't augment.
masak: You can likely do meta-model things though. 15:14
masak: They're just method calls after all.
PerlJam weird.
masak pausenclown: Perl 6 is my online game :)
PerlJam masak: who's winning? ;) 15:15
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masak PerlJam: everyone :) 15:21
(duh)
rakudo: rand()
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Unsupported use of rand(); in Perl 6 please use rand at line 11, near "()"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak std: rand()
p6eval std 29780: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of rand(); in Perl 6 please use rand at /tmp/u95Z6iRUXu line 1:␤------> rand⏏()␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤»
masak rakudo: my $a = rand until $a > .5; say $a 15:22
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
masak alpha: my $a = rand until $a > .5; say $a
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in can()␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
masak std: my $a = rand until $a > .5; say $a
jnthn Hey look, one less NPMCA!
p6eval std 29780: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
masak jnthn: :)
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn hmm, yeha
makkksimal ?eval 1+1 15:23
jnthn Wait, should until evaluate the loop once always?
masak jnthn: that would actually make the error make sense...
jnthn checks the spec
masak: Right, that's why I was asking.
masak stands down rakudobug alert
jnthn I mean, I'd expect it from my $a = rand while $a <= .5;
masak nod. 15:24
you're right.
jnthn It's a bug if until is spec'd to evaluate once first, anyways...just not sure if it is. :-)
BTW, one of the big refactorings in ng was to handle things like that in a way that'd hopefully avoid NPMCA. 15:25
rakudo: sub foo($x where { $x == $y }, $y) { }; foo(1,2) # doesn't NPMCA either now :-)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<==>'␤current instr.: '_block51' pc 434 (EVAL_1:170)␤»
masak jnthn: no, 'until' is '!while'.
jnthn masak: Ah, ok
Then error makes sense I guess.
masak aye.
masak submits a LTA rakudobug for that last one :) 15:26
std: sub foo($x where { $x == $y }, $y) { }
p6eval std 29780: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $y is not predeclared at /tmp/1c7JszfEht line 1:␤------> sub foo($x where { $x == $y⏏ }, $y) { }␤ok 00:01 110m␤»
masak that's a lot better.
jnthn Yeah 15:28
But NPMCA woulda been worse
masak yeah :) 15:30
colomon is suffering SAN loss from $work. 15:35
moritz_ when that happens you're happy if you have your source code in git and not svn on the server :-) 15:37
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colomon Here's what's happening, just in case it suggests something useful, because I'm utterly boggled. 15:42
For $work, I ship C++ code to customers. Apparently a customer complained to some of the folks I work with that we had non-virtual destructors on many classes, and requested that we add them to adhere to their source code conventions. 15:43
So I added a bunch, with no difficulties but perhaps microscopically less efficient code due to unneeded vtables. 15:44
That is, no difficulties on OS X.
I just tried a Windows build with the now-virtual destructors, and I'm getting an endless stream of pop up messages informing me the program must be aborted because these destructors could not be found. 15:45
Now, the destructors in question existed before the change. All that's different is they are virtual. And if they can't be found, they shouldn't be linking in the first place, as far as I can see.
bkeeler Some artifact of a previous build confusing things perhaps? 15:46
colomon and suddenly I have an overwhelming urge to just revert the patch that added all the virtuals...
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colomon Nope, I .... 15:46
hmmm. I did a clean build, sort of. Maybe I should try harder on that front?
bkeeler Can't hurt 15:47
colomon bkeeler++ # good idea
jnthn Maybe if you've a VM runner handy, try a build/run on one of those too.
bkeeler Remove all vestiges of any installed .dlls too
jnthn So you know it's clean. 15:48
bkeeler If in doubt reinstall Windows ;)
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colomon Hmmm... after a complete rebuild of my $work code, I get a completely different linking error. Progress, I guess. bkeeler++, jnthn++ 16:40
bkeeler hehe, good to hear 16:41
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masak E03 has the most contrived program I've ever seen. 16:55
mberends are you working on making a running version of it? 17:01
masak mberends: eventually. 17:05
mberends: first I just want to translate it to modern Perl 6.
mberends masak: interesting. E03 could do with updating. 17:06
bkeeler any emacs users here? Just wondering if there's a cperl mode with perl6 support that's more recent than the one in the pugs repo...
masak mberends: SF already has a blog post about it. want me to paste the URL?
mberends yes please! 17:07
masak lastofthecarelessmen.blogspot.com/2...-stab.html
I don't want to look at it yet :)
mberends SF is already up to date with s/master/alpha/ :) 17:08
masak SF++
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jnthn chromatic++'s improvements last night took test from 517s to 502s - a small but nice extra gain. :-) 17:19
(times for me, of course :-))
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colomon jnthn: it was more like a 10% improvement on my machine. 17:24
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jnthn colomon: Really? Wow. 17:31
colomon I guess it's possible one of your later optimizations snuck into the comparison as well, I wasn't being careful. :)
but I'm getting 475 wallclock on my system, and the previous timing I noted was 547. 17:32
at this point it's really solidly much better than alpha, too.
jnthn Dunno, I pushed two, and then a third one later.
Yes, that makes me happy. :-)
colomon should stop fantasizing about implementing Rat versions of the trig functions and get back to $work... 17:40
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colomon Would probably be easier if they were FatRats... 17:45
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jnthn
.oO( It occurs to me that Rat.Capture actually means something... )
 17:45
jnthn lols
colomon what does it mean? 17:46
jnthn colomon: Just coercion to a capture 17:47
colomon ah, does that make sense as something to call? 17:48
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Rat $r (:$numerator, :$denominator, *%)) { say $numerator; say $denominator; }; foo(3/5)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤5␤»
jnthn colomon: The binder calls it in order to make things like the above work. :-)
colomon I am awed that you got that working.
what does the *% in there mean? 17:49
jnthn colomon: It's just a slurpy hash, it means "and throw away anything else" 17:50
Though actually, a Rat probably doesn't ahve any other attributes.
rakudo: sub foo(Rat $r (:$numerator, :$denominator)) { say $numerator; say $denominator; }; foo(3/5)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤5␤»
jnthn ah, yeah, so you get away with just that. :-)
colomon ah, cool.
jnthn Works on returns too.
rakudo: sub foo() { return 4/3 }; my (Rat $r (:$numerator, :$denominator)) := foo(); say $numerator; say $denominator; 17:51
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«4␤3␤»
colomon rakudo: sub makerat() { return 3/5; }; my Rat $r (:$numerator, :$denominator) = foo()... beaten to the unch 17:52
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "my Rat $r "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
colomon punch
jnthn That one *was* real fun to make work...
I needs to blog about that stuff. :-)
colomon jnthn++
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colomon working $work build! \o/ 18:02
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colomon hey, the release announcement just popped up in my mailbox! \o/ 18:23
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visitor9 Has any work begun on a Perl 6 binding to a GUI toolkit? Which one are you most interested in for Perl 6? 18:24
Su-Shee gtk 18:25
qt
arnsholt AFAIK the native language bindings are a bit underspecified ATM
But Parrot as a native call interface so it's possible, but it'll be Rakudo-specific
visitor9 Does that mean, if someone writes PIR bindings to a GUI toolkit, then any Parrot-hosted lang can use them? 18:26
arnsholt I think so 18:27
At least if you don't rely on any of the Rakudo data-type stuff
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lichtkind Su-Shee: kam die einteilung in unterseiten auf perl6.org auch von dir? 18:29
18:42 payload left
Su-Shee lichtkind: nur die idee/vorschlag. 18:42
18:42 ignacio_ left
lichtkind Su-Shee: gut, danke 18:42
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mathw good localtime 18:47
Is there anything I could look at in Rakudo this evening that would be helpful?
jnthn mathw: A lot of S03-smartmatch/*.t is still commented out in t/spectest.data 18:49
mathw: I suspect a bunch of them may be not too hard to put back (the non-syntactic ones, anyways).
mathw okay
I'll take a look
just waiting for rakudo to update and recompile
jnthn Some of it may be review alpha, copy, paste. :-)
Some of it may be re-write because the previous impl was either (a) in PIR not Perl 6 or (b) sucks. :-) 18:50
mathw :)
jnthn (or maybe (c) the spec changed...)
mathw I'll be asking for help I'm sure
jnthn I need to go buy food now (which is why it's just started to rain heavily, I guess...)
mathw but I'm determined to do something useful from time to time instead of just lingering and talking like I used to do 18:51
hah
jnthn But will be around and probably Rakudo-ing. :-)
mathw yes it tends to work that way doesn't it
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jnthn Thing is, I don't think it's rained all the rest of the day! :-) 18:51
mathw typical
I'm also trying to cope with my cat, who thinks he should be sitting in front of the screen
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jnthn mathw: Clearly he wants to see some lolcats....or the McDonalds site. 18:52
PerlJam If *+* comes to mean { $^a + $^b }, then I guess all of those cool things we wrote like (*** + ***).(2) will have to become (*** + ***).(2,2 ...) or something 18:53
mathw ah, he's wandered off now
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mathw one day I'll find an ethernet cable lying around that he's been plugging himself into or something 18:54
jnthn -> getting wet buying stuff to cook for dinner 18:56
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jnthn back 19:25
mathw Well
I have discovered that Rat doesn't have an ACCEPTS method 19:26
alpha: ('1.2' ~~ 1.2).say
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«1␤»
mathw rakudo: ('1.2' ~~ 1.2).say
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤current instr.: 'infix:<~~>' pc 211284 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:15386)␤»
mathw what I haven't figured out is where alpha keeps it 19:27
or if alpha is cheating
jnthn src/setting/Rat.pm moybe the first place to look 19:28
PerlJam you're looking for an alpha rat?
:) 19:29
mathw har
ash__ do they have alphas? just curious
mathw jnthn: I looked in there, no dice
ash__ what does it inherit from?
did you check its parent? 19:30
alpha: say Rat.^methods(:local);
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«predsecnudenumeratorsuccNumdenominatorsignperlabsStrnew␤»
ash__ alpha: say ~Rat.^parents;
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Any() Object()␤»
mathw I've got a local tree with alpha, so I'm poking through that now 19:31
ash__ rakudo: say Rat.^methods(:local); # does this work now?
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«absStrsecaccessor_helper_roaccessor_helper_roRatnewpredIntBoolnudesuccNumsignperl␤»
ash__ ooo, jnthn++ fixed introspection, at least some of it, woot 19:32
what does nude do on Rat? 19:33
PerlJam ash__: numerator, denominator
nu de
mathw okay I have no idea what alpha's doing 19:34
ash__ ah, cool
mathw I guess it falls back to Any
ash__ rakudo: (3, 4, 1).sort; # :-( 19:35
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
ash__ hmmm that gave me an error a second ago 19:36
rakudo: say ~Any.^methods(:local).sort;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'sort' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
mathw rakudo: (2.3 == 2.3).say 19:37
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤»
colomon alpha: ('1.2' ~~ 6/5).say 19:38
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤»
colomon 1.2 isn't a Rat in alpha.
mathw aaah 19:39
that makes sense
so the question is, which branch is correct about that
rakudo: 1.2.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
colomon Well, 1.2 is definitely supposed to be a Rat.
mathw alpha: 1.2.WHAT.say
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
colomon Whether or not Rats should have an ACCEPTS, I dunno.
mathw okay
well there should be some way to smartmatch it 19:40
colomon Ah, right, that makes perfect sense. :)
jnthn RAt should have ACCEPTS
Should do what == does, I suspect.
colomon hold on, let me poke at the code.
PerlJam Was REJECTS speced away?
colomon Hmmm... I think == is just relying on Nums to do the work. 19:41
ash__ i shouldn't ACCEPTS exist on all objects?
jnthn colomon: Maybe - == could be overloaded for Rat though
colomon probably makes sense to do so.
jnthn But an ACCEPTS that just does $topic == self should be enough, I think. 19:42
mathw is trying that at the moment
I had thought of that, and then thought hang on... isn't that a bit simple
and then I thought well why shouldn't it be
! 19:43
okay
I don't know what just happened
mathw pokes
colomon tell us more? 19:44
mathw well I gave Rat an ACCEPTS 19:45
and I ran the same test, which does '1.2' ~~ 1.2
and now it says "Use of type object as value"
colomon what were the arguments to ACCEPTS?
mathw hold that thought 19:46
food time...
ash__ i think method ACCEPTS($self:, $other) {...} is the general definition of ACCEPTS... 19:51
jnthn rakudo: say '1.2' == 1.2 19:52
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn rakudo: Rat.^add_method('ACCEPTS', method ($topic) { self == $topic }); say '0.5' ~~ 1/2
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤»
ash__ is there an overall numeric class/role that all numberish objects use?
jnthn Numeric
colomon but it's NYI 19:53
ash__ okay, was wondering about that, Rat.^parents; only returns Any, Mu
is it a role? probably? 19:54
colomon yes
actually Rat does Numeric and Real.
and eventually Rational, I think...
ash__ how do you get a list of what roles an object has applied to it?
jnthn ash__: .^roles 19:56
ash__: Roles aren't parents. :-)
ash__ yeah, i know, i just wasn't sure where they'd be stored 19:57
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a.^methods.join(":") 19:59
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«BUILDALL:new:Bool:say:print:defined:REJECTS:BUILD:clone:WHICH:CREATE:Capture:PARROT:bless:WHENCE:WHERE:list::notdef␤»
PerlJam Why is there an empty method name just before .notdef ? 20:00
jnthn Good question. 20:02
ash__ rakudo: my $a; say $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); 20:06
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«WHERE␤list␤␤notdef␤BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤say␤print␤defined␤REJECTS␤BUILD␤clone␤WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤bless␤WHENCE␤1111111111111111111␤»
ash__ is my 1111111111111111111 === to your blank?
oh, um no, i see a \n\n in there, nevermind, thats not it 20:07
PerlJam ash__: those 1s are the return values from each say
ash__ still, 1111111111111111111 is an odd result
doh
yup, i see that now
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ash__ rakudo: my $a; $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); 20:09
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
ash__ why does that give no output?
is it being lazy?
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); say "hi"; 20:10
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«hi␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; my @a = $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); say "hi";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«␤notdef␤BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤say␤print␤defined␤BUILD␤REJECTS␤clone␤WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤bless␤WHENCE␤WHERE␤list␤hi␤»
PerlJam ash__: I'm not sure if it has something to do with being in sink context, but that coupled with laziness is probably it. 20:11
mathw okay
food is eaten
just re-gathering my thoughts
ash__ how would one make that not-lazy? eager()? 20:12
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; eager $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); say "hi";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤bless␤WHENCE␤WHERE␤list␤␤notdef␤BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤print␤say␤defined␤BUILD␤REJECTS␤clone␤hi␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo (*@_) { }; my $a; foo $a.^methods.map({ say $_; }); say "hi"; 20:13
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«bless␤WHENCE␤WHERE␤list␤␤notdef␤BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤say␤print␤defined␤BUILD␤REJECTS␤clone␤WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤hi␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; @($a.^methods.map({ say $_; })); say "hi";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«hi␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; ($a.^methods.map({ say $_; })); say "hi";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«hi␤»
mathw ah 20:14
it looks like my ACCEPTS works
there's something else wrong with the test case which triggered me to add it
no there isn't 20:15
I'm misreading
this is another problem, with the next case
woo
ash__ rakudo: my $a; eager($a.^methods.map({ say $_. }))
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤»
ash__ eager() works
oops
rakudo: my $a; eager($a.^methods.map({ say $_ })) 20:16
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤say␤print␤defined␤REJECTS␤BUILD␤clone␤WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤bless␤WHENCE␤WHERE␤list␤␤notdef␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; for $a.^methods { say $_ }
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«␤notdef␤BUILDALL␤new␤Bool␤print␤say␤defined␤BUILD␤REJECTS␤clone␤WHICH␤CREATE␤Capture␤PARROT␤bless␤WHENCE␤WHERE␤list␤»
PerlJam huh. 20:17
I don't see the extra empty one in that list (using the for loop)
rakudo: my $a; for $a.^methods { say "<<$_>>" } 20:18
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«<<BUILDALL>>␤<<new>>␤<<Bool>>␤<<say>>␤<<print>>␤<<defined>>␤<<REJECTS>>␤<<BUILD>>␤<<clone>>␤<<WHICH>>␤<<CREATE>>␤<<Capture>>␤<<PARROT>>␤<<bless>>␤<<WHENCE>>␤<<WHERE>>␤<<list>>␤<<>>␤<<notdef>>␤»
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ash__ it was first 20:18
PerlJam oh, it was at the beginning the first time
rakudo: my $a; say $a.WHAT; 20:19
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a."WHAT";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments at line 11, near ";"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
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PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a."WHAT"(); 20:19
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a.""();
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
mathw github.com/mattw/rakudo/commit/3b52...a3373a1e2a <- trivial, really. Next problem...
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a();
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Mu'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
PerlJam btw, rakudo++ for some awesome error messages 20:20
sometimes they make up for the LTA ones 20:21
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mathw okay I'm not sure about this test 20:21
coke Hey, the rakudo notice that just hit my inbox says it requires parrot 2.1.0
mathw ok(Mu ~~ 0);
that's what's making rakudo complain about the use of a type object as a value 20:22
I'm not sure what the purpose of this test is
PerlJam rakudo: Mu ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
PerlJam rakudo: Mu() ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &Mu␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; $a ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
coke mberends: ping. 20:23
mathw looks at Int.ACCEPTS
mberends coke: pong
coke mberends: did you send out the latest release notice on rakudo ? 20:24
mathw rakudo: my $a; $a == 0;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<==>'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
20:24 iblechbot joined
coke (just making sure you is he. =-) 20:24
20:24 justatheory left
mberends coke: I sent emails to p6a etc, but only some have arrived :-/ 20:25
coke mberends: I just got one.
mberends hmm, moritz_++ also tried to send some more
coke mberends: you say it requires 2.1.0 - we cut 2.1.1 just for you guys to fix the memory leak that was identified in here yesterday.
so if anyone tries to run rakudo agains the 2.1.0 release and not 2.1.1 or trunk, it's probably going to be less than awesome.
Not sure if you want to put out an addendum, or just deal with it if anyone asks, but I wanted to let you know. 20:26
20:26 cosimo left
mberends coke: sorry, afk for dinner, talk in 45 mins? 20:26
20:26 cosimo joined
coke I'm done. just an FYI. enjoy your dinner! 20:26
(curses, now I want food!) 20:27
jnthn D'oh, the release announcement shoulda mentioned 2.1.1... 20:38
20:39 colomon left
mathw jnthn: the next test I've got that fails tries to do Mu ~~ 0. This seems odd. 20:39
jnthn mathw: Mu == 0 is also problematic. 20:40
mathw yes
rakudo: Mu == 0
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<==>'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
jnthn Right.
ash__ undef was the old Mu? sorta... so, isn't that like saying my $a; $a ~~ 0? that seems like a valid test, IMO 20:41
mathw rakudo: Mu ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
jnthn ash__: Yes
PerlJam rakudo: 0 ~~ Mu
mathw rakudo: my $a; $a ~~ 0
jnthn I agree it should give True
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
ash__ rakudo: Mu ~~ Mu;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
jnthn I wonder if the answer is to define like
mathw Out of experimentation, I moved Int.ACCEPTS from PIR to Perl 6, and it swaps over to the 'no applicable candidates' message for infix:<==> 20:42
PerlJam What question is Mu ~~ 0 asking?
mathw I don't know 20:43
other than that presmuably after my $a, $a contains Mu, and if you numify Mu maybe you get 0 so it should be true by that logic 20:44
jnthn our multi infix:<==>(Mu $a where .notdef, $b) { 0 == $b } # or some such
Essentially, the problem is...
our multi infix:<==>($a, $b) { ... } won't accept Mu as a parameter.
before undef ~~ Any, so it all worked out
mathw Please don't say we have to add Mu overloads
jnthn mathw: Yeah, but it's infix:<==> that numifies.
mathw: Well, yeah, I thought that seemed...oddish too. 20:45
mathw I suppose we do have to teach it what to do with Mu
jnthn Well, undefineds generally
oh, no, most of them are handled already
rakudo: our multi infix:<==>(Mu $a where .notdef, $b) { 0 == $b }; my $a; say $a == 1; say $a == 0; 20:46
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
PerlJam rakudo: say Mu.^parents 20:47
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«␤»
PerlJam rakudo: say Any.^parents
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
mathw jnthn: that simple?
PerlJam the smart-match table in S03 is written in terms of Any, and doesn't mention Mu 20:48
ash__ that sounds like it needs updating, IMO... since Mu is kinda important, does it mention undef?
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jnthn ash__: Well, that's the problem 20:49
20:49 SmokeMachine left
jnthn Mu !~~ Any, whereas the old undef ~~ Any 20:49
So we never got into this kind of problem before.
I know we can multi our way out of the situation. :-) 20:50
But that feels slightly...inelegant.
ash__ yeah
maybe some of the Any functionality should have fallbacks for when you get passed a Mu
or maybe Mu should be converted to an Any? /shrug
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say Any ~~ $a; 20:51
ash__ or add some other definitions for Mu cases
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤»
mathw jnthn: is there any particular reason why Int's ACCEPTS is defined in PIR?
PerlJam rakudo: say Any ~~ Mu; 20:52
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤»
mathw aargh
head asplode
clearly I need sleep, not Perl 20:53
jnthn mathw: Not that I know of.
PerlJam rakudo: class X { }; say Mu ~~ X();
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &X␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
mathw I will come back to rakudo tomorrow
PerlJam rakudo: class X { }; say Mu ~~ X;
mathw when I'm awake
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«0␤»
mathw and maybe pick something less mind-bending to work on :)
PerlJam I'm thinking that Mu ~~ * should always be false unless it's Mu ~~ Mu 20:54
mathw the change I did make is here: github.com/mattw/rakudo/commit/3b52...a3373a1e2a which adds Rat.ACCEPTS. not spectested.
mathw -> blessed sleep
jnthn night, mathw 20:56
21:00 macae left
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count; 21:00
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«0␤0␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo ($,$,$) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count; 21:01
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo ($,$,$?) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo ($,$ = 2,$ = 3) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤3␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo ($,$? = 2,$? = 3) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤3␤»
PerlJam rakudo: sub foo ($,$?,$? = 3) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count; 21:02
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«2␤3␤»
jnthn PerlJam: $? is perhaps getting swalled by the twigil rule, though I suspect wrongly...
PerlJam yeah, I wasn't sure.
rakudo: sub foo ($a,$b?,$c? = 3) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count; 21:03
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«1␤3␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo ($,$,$?) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo ($,$,$? ) { }; say &foo.arity; say &foo.count; 21:04
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
PerlJam should be easyish to fix though.
jnthn token twigil:sym<?> { <sym> }
Hmm
Maybe that one wants a <?before \w>
Like some of the other twigil tokens.
TimToady: See ^
PerlJam add something like <before: <ident> > for twigils (I don't remember the exact syntax) 21:05
jnthn Well, STD does it for some twigils.
But not all of them. 21:06
I'd rather check if it's an oversight or deliberate that ? wasn't given such a thing.
PerlJam ah, I see that.
jnthn But yes, in theory it'll fix it.
PerlJam whoa ... what's <!!worry ...> ? 21:07
ash__ what exactly is the point of ? in a parameter? like, sub foo($a!) {}; vs sub foo($a) { }; if i call it with no parameters it gives an error either way...
err s/?/!/
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PerlJam ah ... S05++ I need to absorb the spec a little more. 21:10
clsn Having a weird experience with rakudo lately. Even with new rebuilt parrot and all rebuilt, the simple script 'token xx { "x" } say ("x" ~~ /<xx>/);' gives me an error.
jnthn Makes it optional...
clsn Anything with named regexps I think, though not the builtin ones. 21:11
jnthn clsn: Hi! :-) Did you just grab the latest release or are you working from a git clone? 21:12
TimToady testing a twigil fix that generalizes \w to all twigils
clsn git clone.
jnthn clsn: Basically though, a branch landed recently that has caused various regressions.
clsn: In the meantime, you may wish to switch to the "alpha" branch while the fallout gets cleared up. :-) 21:13
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clsn OK, thanks. I was worried somethng really inexplicable was wrong with my system if nobody else heard of this... 21:13
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jnthn clsn: No, nothings "wrong" as such - just that a big bunch of internals changes landed and we're still putting various bits back together again. 21:14
TimToady PerlJam: <!! is just like <? except that negative lookaheads aren't counting in LTM
so it takes the LTM from after it
clsn jnthn: Is the alpha branch not in git? git branch isn't showing it after pull.
jnthn clsn: I wrote a blog post about it here, if you like: use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/40190
TimToady whereas <? steals the LTM baton and doesn't use anything after 21:15
jnthn clsn: Ah, you may need to git checkout origin/alpha
clsn Oh, great, I am curious as to *what* happened too.
OK, thanks again!
PerlJam TimToady: yeah, I got that from S05. TimToady++ for writing this stuff down :)
jnthn is not a git wizz kid :-)
clsn Me either; we'll fake it.
pugs_svn r29781 | lwall++ | [STD] generalize \w lookahead to all twigils 21:17
cognominal yea, jnthn is a wizz kid in everything programmatic. 21:19
ash__ jnthn, i was asking about '!' which makes parameters required, but whats the difference between foo($a) vs foo($a!)
cognominal jnthn++ for the last blog entry
ash__ in both cases if you say foo(); it gives an error 21:20
pmichaud I see no real problem with the 2.1.1 versus 2.1.0 note in the announcement 21:21
rakudo will work with either one
jnthn ash__: none
ash__: It's useful on nameds 21:22
ash__: Which are optional by default.
pmichaud with 2.1.0 it will not be quite as nice as 2.1.1, but it will still generally work
jnthn ash__: On positionals it's pretty pointless.
mberends pmichaud: coke++'s point is just that the performance would be a bit less
ash__ okay, so, it does make a difference with named params, that makes sense
chromatic We yanked 2.1.0, so people will have to get 2.1.1.
mberends ok, that solves it too 21:23
jnthn pmichaud: Sure, but Parrot folks cut 2.1.1 so things would be less sucky. :-)
ash__: ? is thus kinda useless on nameds. :-)
ash__ but not on positional
jnthn Right.
PerlJam It wouldn't hurt for someone to reply to the announcement with that information.
pmichaud jnthn: sure, I understand that. But someone using --gen-parrot will end up with something that says "2.1.0", and it's also good if we can avoid the confusion 21:24
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, I see.
mberends pmichaud: --gen-parrot gets r44147, which is 2.1.1 in all but name...
chromatic I didn't think of that, but it makes sense. 21:25
coke 2.1.0 is gone?
pmichaud mberends: agreed, 2.1.1 in all but name. but someone looking at --parrot-version will see 2.1.0 21:26
pmichaud@plum:~/rakudo/parrot$ svn info | grep Revision
Revision: 44147
pmichaud@plum:~/rakudo/parrot$ ./parrot --version
This is Parrot version 2.1.0-devel built for amd64-linux.
mberends I'm sorry for the confusion I've caused
pmichaud there's just not a perfectly clean answer for this issue
suppose that we had detected the memory leak _after_ the rakudo release? what would we have done then? ;-)
coke trunk can be updated with the new number, if that helps. 21:27
pmichaud we'd end up with what we have now -- a rakudo release targeting 2.1.0
coke I have an nqp question. ok for here?
pmichaud except that it's svn number would end up pointing to a trunk version that doesn't have the leak fix, which would be less awesome than what we do have
coke: yes
coke want a global in my module. can I do INIT { our $foo := 2;} and have the $foo available elsewhere in the module? 21:28
do I have to separate the $our outside of the INITI and the := 2 inside for that to work?
(that /seems/ to DWIM.) 21:29
PerlJam coke: our outside the INIT
pmichaud our $foo; INIT { $foo := 2 }; # I think 21:32
clsn Rebuilt, doesn't fail the same, but an odd error maybe. perl6 -e 'token xx { "x" } ; say "x" ~~ m/x/;' and the error is Confused at line 1, near "x\" ~~ m/x/"; that backslash looks strange.
pmichaud with "our" inside of the braces it limits the scope of the declaration to the INIT block 21:33
coke pmichaud, PerlJam: excellent. now If I can just figure out how to say "this variable is really an int..."
pmichaud coke: int as in Integer PMC or as in I register?
PerlJam coke: why do you want to say "this var is an int"? 21:34
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coke I register. 21:34
PerlJam: trying to keep it as close to the original PIR as possible.
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PerlJam coke: luckily you can use PIR in NQP :) 21:35
21:35 ewilhelm left
pmichaud coke: welcome to my pain -- Parrot doesn't allow lexicals to refer to registers. 21:35
coke: welcome to my pain -- Parrot doesn't allow lexicals to refer to anything but PMCs.
I'm working on ways to make local declarations that might do that for specific block situations... but there's no general solution in Parrot for it. 21:36
in the specific example you give, there'd be almost no way to tie a package-scoped variable to a register.
coke ok. might be to nest a lot of pir::opcodes to get this. Makes it a terrible example to convert to NQP. =-) 21:37
pmichaud could be, yes. You can also still do Q:PIR for long blocks of PIR
coke ... this is so short, not worth converting then.
(parrot's Math/Rand) 21:38
PerlJam would probably opt for Q:PIR in Coke's case
coke PerlJam: the PIR itself is already so small, wrapping it in NQP be silly at that point. 21:41
"would be"
I'll pick a larger, non-math related sample to hack on.
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chromatic I have some ideas on how to make lexicals refer to primitives. 21:48
How much does Rakudo benefit from that?
jnthn May be a win. 21:49
Though probably not for anything we implemented yet.
pmichaud it'd be much bigger benefit for NQP than for Rakudo
jnthn pmichaud: That's true...
pmichaud Rakudo's types are pretty heavily tied up in PMCs -- they have to be, because so much of Perl 6 is method-based 21:50
jnthn pmichaud: Int can't go in an I register, but int can.
pmichaud but NQP wants to be able to emulate the vm, and not having a way to declare register types as lexicals (or access non-pmc registers from nested lexical scopes) really limits their utility
jnthn: sure, but can you keep track of type constraints and rw-ness? 21:51
TimToady ash__: dunno if anyone answered this, but sink context is eager
pmichaud anyway, I stand corrected -- Rakudo as it stands today can't make much use of them, but they're absolutely needed for us to be able to do much with native types in Perl 6. :)
jnthn pmichaud: It's probably the same machinary we'd need to handle auto-boxing.
pmichaud: Perhaps. 21:52
pmichaud: I didn't work out a detailed implementation plan.
pmichaud jnthn: right, I agree.
Anyway, lexicals as native registers would be a great benefit to NQP and nqp authors.
TimToady ash__: that is, it's *specced* to be eager
21:53 hatseflats left, hatseflats joined
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; $a.^methods.map({ .say }); 21:53
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
PerlJam TimToady: so that should output all of the methods?
jnthn pmichaud: Though my intuition is that other register types as lexicals will (a) certainly help NQP, which in turn helps Rakudo since parts of it are written in NQP and (b) stands a change of being useful for doing lowercase types in Perl 6.
s/change/chance/ 21:54
pmichaud jnthn: agreed.
TimToady PerlJam: yes, in theory, though maybe sink needs to be strictly eager
pmichaud sink is on my list of rsn things to implement
jnthn pmichaud: The overall plan for the lowercased types needs to include how object attributes work out too. 21:55
ash__ what makes something 'sink context'?
pmichaud jnthn: I agree. Not sure what that will look like. 21:56
jnthn pmichaud: Terrifying.
:-D
TimToady ash__: being a non-final statement, for one 21:57
rakudo: my $a; $a.^method.map({ .say }); 42;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'method' not found for invocant of class 'ClassHOW'␤current instr.: '!dispatch_.^' pc 410 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:100)␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $a = 2; $a.^method.map({ .say }); 42;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'method' not found for invocant of class 'ClassHOW'␤current instr.: '!dispatch_.^' pc 410 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:100)␤»
pmichaud rakudo doesn't have sink context at all yet. It needs a good way to detect the non-final statements. :)
TimToady rakudo: my $a = 2; $a.^methods.map({ .say }); 42;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13548 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:21)␤» 21:58
pmichaud the current "fix" is to explicitly request eager, atm
TimToady O_o
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 2; eager $a.^methods.map({ .say });
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $a = 2; sink $a.^methods.map({ .say });
pmichaud ....which appears to point to a different problem :)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
PerlJam 2 bugs in one! :) 21:59
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 2; sink $a;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &sink␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
pmichaud Right.
21:54 <pmichaud> sink is on my list of rsn things to implement
TimToady rakudo: my $a = 2; gather $a.^methods.map({ .say });
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
TimToady gather is also supposed to be void inside 22:00
PerlJam rakudo: my $a = 2; say $a.^methods
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13548 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:21)␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; say $a.^methods
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«REJECTSBUILDcloneWHICHCREATECapturePARROTblessWHENCEWHERElistnotdefBUILDALLnewBoolsayprintdefined␤»
pmichaud I'm guessing an issue with .^methods
on Int
PerlJam rakudo: my $a = 2; say $a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
TimToady .WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT....
ash__ rakudo: my $a = 1; say $a.^methods(:local); 22:01
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«secACCEPTSRatIntpredBoolsuccNumsignperlWHICHabsComplexStr␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = '2'; say $a.^methods
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13548 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:21)␤»
TimToady hmm, parent trap?
pmichaud likely.
PerlJam I bet Rats, Bools, Complex, and Nums do it too :) 22:02
my $a = 3.14; say $a.^methods;
TimToady I smell a Bool!
( no output )
PerlJam rakudo: my $a = 3.14; say $a.^methods; 22:03
TimToady ( no input either )
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
pmichaud looks forward to has Complex $oedipus;
PerlJam rakudo: my $a = Bool::True; say $a.^methods;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13548 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:21)␤»
TimToady BTW, parent of Rat should be Cool rather than Any
PerlJam rakudo: my $a = 4i; say $a.^methods;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output ) 22:04
jnthn rakudo: my $a = 2; say $a.^methods(:local)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«secACCEPTSRatIntpredBoolsuccNumsignperlWHICHabsComplexStr␤»
jnthn rakudo: my $a = 2; say $a.^parents
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady rakudo: say 2.WHAT.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
jnthn oh wtf
TimToady rakudo: say 2.WHAT.WHAT.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
jnthn TimToady: my $a = 2; say $a.PARROT
er
rakudo: my $a = 2; say $a.PARROT
PerlJam rakudo: say 3.14.WHAT.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Integer␤» 22:05
rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
jnthn
.oO( must not use TimToady as an evalbot )
TimToady ( no output )
PerlJam jnthn: why does .PARROT matter?
jnthn PerlJam: 'cus it tells you what the thing *really* is. 22:06
PerlJam: And also probably gives me a clue on how to fix the bug.
pmichaud btw, it's PARROT($foo) now instead of $foo.PARROT
PerlJam .^methods "delegates" to the .PARROTy thing?
jnthn pmichaud: Huh? Both work, no?
pmichaud because the .PARROT form doesn't let you see any intermediate ObjectRefs
jnthn PerlJam: No
PerlJam: Oh
pmichaud (because they get dereferenced as part of the method call...)
jnthn gah, tab complete
pmichaud: Oh, good point.
PerlJam: The problem is that it goes and finds the Parrot Integer PMC's PMCProxy rather than Perl 6's Int class. 22:07
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PerlJam rakudo: my $a = 3.14; say $a.PARROT 22:08
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Rat␤»
PerlJam and it doesn't do that for Rats because ... ? 22:09
they happen to have the same name?
pmichaud that used to not be the case, but now it is :)
my $a = 5; say $a.PARROT; say PARROT($a);
rakudo: my $a = 5; say $a.PARROT; say PARROT($a);
rakudo: my $a = 5; say $a;
ENOP6EVAL?
P6EVAL hateses mee?
rakudo: say 'hello';
:-(
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Integer␤Perl6Scalar->Integer␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 3.14; say $a.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«5␤»
pmichaud because there's no underlying Parrot type
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«hello␤»
rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Rat␤»
22:09 clsn left
PerlJam oh, so .PARROT lies when there's no underlying Parrot type? 22:10
pmichaud no, it reports the actual Parrot type
22:10 nbrown left, rgrau left
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 2; say Parrot($a); 22:11
PerlJam rakudo: class X { } ; my $a = X.new; say $a.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &Parrot␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«X␤»
ash__ pmichaud: so, i am trying to figure out if its possible to implement nqp-rx's rx stuff with bison and flex... does that sound reasonable? just roughly speaking here, since you have already implemented it
22:11 rgrau joined
pmichaud ash__: I'd be highly doubtful. 22:11
PerlJam rakudo: class X { } ; my $a = X.new; say PARROT($a)
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->X␤»
PerlJam ah.
22:11 dalek left
pmichaud rakudo: class X { } ; say PARROT(X.new); 22:12
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«X␤»
ash__ pmichaud: i have a grammar defined in bison with flex that handles most of nqp's cases i have found, its not doing any code gen, but its parsing somewhat correctly
pmichaud ash__: are you able to parse nqp's grammar? 22:13
22:13 dalek joined
ash__ no, not yet, if i see a grammar ID { } i just ignore whats between { } for now 22:13
pmichaud ash__: well, nqp-rx's rx engine is based on its own grammar 22:14
so, you'd need to be able to parse that :-)
ash__ yeah, i know
i am trying to figure out how to write something that parses it 22:15
pmichaud anyway, I'm doubtful of implementing rx with bison and flex... but that may be insufficient imagination on my part.
ash__ i might just pull the contents out as a string 22:16
pmichaud there's a reason I didn't head down that path in the first place :)
ash__ and make a custom parser to do the actual parsing of a regex
i can parse github.com/ashgti/nq-nqp-rx/blob/ma...basics.nqp file successfully, but its technically ignoring the stuff in token abc { } between the { } 22:17
PerlJam ash__: so ... you'd be using bison/flex for what exactly? ;)
ash__ learning
22:17 ggoebel joined
pmichaud ash__: my mental model has always been that you start by parsing regexes first, and then build everything on top of that -- not the other way around :) 22:17
ash__ i have a class on compilers, and i wanted to learn how its been done in the past
22:17 payload left
ash__ so yacc/lex 22:17
PerlJam ash__: you could write a version of NQP in C. That would be interesting. 22:18
ash__ well, it parses most of nqp now, it just doesn't make any code for it
my plan is to have it gen code eventually, i just want to get the grammar right
my biggest hurdle right now is the stuff between a { } in a token 22:19
pmichaud right
ash__ which is to say, a lot
pmichaud my point is that the nqp grammar is really a bunch of regexes
22:20 dalek left
pmichaud more to the point, nqp's codegen depends on having a regex parse tree to work from 22:20
ash__ i guess its a chicken and the egg problem, i am trying to write something that can parse your grammar, but it needs to be able to parse regex's so... yup, kinda why i am asking you about this
pmichaud right 22:21
in my mind, parsing regexes is the place to start
once you can parse regexes, building the rest of the grammar is really quite simple
22:22 dalek joined
pmichaud you can write something that parses everything but regexes, but then you're still left with the problem of "how do I parse a regex"? 22:22
TimToady I don't think Mu needs to numify
PerlJam rakudo: Int.^methods.join(' ').say
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: ( no output )
TimToady most of the failures we return ought to be derived from Failure or some such derived type
PerlJam rakudo: Int.^methods.join(' ').say; say "hi";
jnthn TimToady: Should Mu == 0 fail?
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13548 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:21)␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; $a.^methods.join(' ').say; say "hi"; 22:23
TimToady it's probably okay if it does
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«WHICH CREATE Capture PARROT bless WHENCE WHERE list notdef BUILDALL new Bool print say defined BUILD REJECTS clone␤hi␤»
PerlJam rakudo: my $a; $a.^methods.sort.join(' ').say; say "hi";
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'sort' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
jnthn TimToady: so this is OK:
pmichaud I think that Mu == 0 ought to give a "use of uninitialized..." or something
jnthn rakudo: my $a; say $a == 0;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<==>'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
ash__ alpha: my $a; say $a == 0;
TimToady maybe variables should default to Any
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤1␤»
pmichaud Mu is basically our "undef". 22:24
TimToady and you have to declare if you want to store a junction or a Mu
jnthn pmichaud: The problem is that we fail the dispatch to ==
TimToady: Maybe. ;-)
TimToady: That would magic away that problem.
TimToady: Trying to think of others it might make...
pmichaud jnthn: we fail the dispatch to == ?
why?
jnthn TimToady: Though none immediately come to mind. 22:25
pmichaud oh, because == expects Any?
or ...?
jnthn pmichaud: sure
pmichaud: multi infix:<==>($a, $b) { }
pmichaud we got away with it before because we weren't multidispatching operators?
jnthn Default parameter types are Any
TimToady in fact, there was speculation several years ago that we shouldn't allow assignment of junctions to variable by default 22:26
pmichaud jnthn: right.
jnthn: got it.
TimToady so maybe variables should default to Any as well
jnthn pmichaud: No, we got away with it before because Failure ~~ Any
And undef ~~ Any
pmichaud in initial value, or type constraint? 22:27
chromatic Why not Mu ~~ (anything) == Mu?
jnthn TimToady: Well, there's two things: what we initialize a variable to and whether we put a type constraint on it.
pmichaud jnthn: okay, makes sense.
jnthn We can do one and not the other.
PerlJam if vars default to Any, then I don't see a pressing need for a Mu entry in the S03 smart-match table.
:)
ash__ are regular expressions something that can't be defined using a tool like yacc/bison? 22:29
jnthn tries to think what the fallout for chromatic's suggestion would be.
Well, and how to do it...
pmichaud istr that suggestion coming up also
(in the past at one point)
PerlJam rakudo: say ?Mu
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady I don't see how making Mu both bottom and top helps much of anything
pmichaud there was a discussion of Mu being simultaneously at the top and bottom of the hierarchy :) 22:30
TimToady the bottom should be Um
22:30 quietfanatic joined
pmichaud ummmmm.... maybe. 22:30
I could argue for nW
jnthn I kinda don't fancy that. 22:31
TimToady Lu
pmichaud wonders how many people have turned their monitors and/or heads 180 degrees :)
TimToady "least undefined"
I can rotate things in my head okay
pmichaud well, fwiw, alpha essentially was doing the equivalent of initializing variables to Any 22:32
TimToady was always fast on the spactial reasoning tests
pmichaud it just called it "Failure" :)
TimToady spatial even
pmichaud (note: initial value, not type constraint) 22:33
I'd think that initializing to Any would be a reasonable place for us to start and see what happens.
TimToady sounds good to me
pmichaud it's also fairly easy to do in rakudo :)
jnthn aye. 22:34
Maybe let's try that
PerlJam and Mu ~~ * is Bool::False?
pmichaud just change src/Perl6/Compiler.pir:34 to point to Any instead of Mu 22:35
actually, we need to do it after Any is created , though.
so that setting might need to go into src/builtins/Any.pir 22:36
22:36 lambdabot joined 22:37 Su-Shee left
pmichaud I'd leave Compiler.pir:34 as is, and then replace $!OBJECTREF with the Any protoobject when we get to Any.pir 22:37
(just in case any ObjectRefs get created before Any is established, which is a little later in the process)
TimToady whatever still match anything 22:40
matches
ash__ pmichaud: for nqp-rx did you make your own regular expression parser or did you use one that exists already? i think you made your own, right? 22:41
pmichaud ash__: I started with PGE
(and yes, I wrote PGE)
ash__ okay, got ya, i'll look at PGE too to try to understand what all you had to do to get it working 22:42
pmichaud it's actually easier to look at nqp :)
because now nqp parses itself.
ash__ but if your bootstrapping from scratch, you'd need a starting point, right? 22:43
pmichaud what backend are you ultimately wanting to target?
ash__ for now, i was going to do the llvm, but that can change for sure
pmichaud ultimately you'll want/need things that can do object-oriented stuff
because regular expression processing in Perl 6 (and NQP) is very method-oriented 22:44
there might be other ways of doing it, though -- my focus/vision has become pretty narrow the past couple of months 22:45
anyway, if I were starting a project, I'd probably find ways to port the existing nqp to other backends, rather than start from scratch :)
jnthn pmichaud: List/iterator question.
pmichaud: If I have an iterator, what's the right way to get a Seq from it?
pmichaud that was the purpose of making nqp self-hosting, so that one could write the backend and use the existing parser/engine :)
pugs_svn r29782 | lwall++ | [S02,S09] default variables to Any, must declare Mu explicitly to hold junctions
r29782 | (this is to reduce pressure to duplicate == and such with Mu arguments)
r29782 | most of our failure values should be derived from Any in any case;
r29782 | Mu is more indicative of a major malfunction now.
jnthn pmichaud: Or something that does Positional, or some such... 22:46
pmichaud jnthn: I suspect it's $iter.Seq or Seq($iter)
$iter.Seq works now.
jnthn Oh?
OK.
I just ran into an...issue when writing an example.
pmichaud there are lots of updates and fixes that need to be made to the iterator method hierarchy in rakudo 22:47
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud I probably need to summarize the notes
jnthn pmichaud: Let me ask another one then.
pmichaud: Is it correct that grep returns a GatherIterator?
pmichaud yes.
jnthn OK
pmichaud at least, it's not *incorrect*
jnthn :-)
OK
pmichaud grep is lazy, so some form of iterator is warranted
22:48 coke left
jnthn Right, my question was more if it should be packaged up into something. 22:48
pmichaud probably
getting iterator-as-list and iterator-as-item is still a bit tricky
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud so grep should be returning a GatherIterator in its "list form", not in its "item form" 22:49
but its "list form" needs to be non-flattening
22:49 ash__ left
jnthn The problem I hit is a fairly weirdish one. 22:49
I'm doing That Cute Quicksort.
multi quicksort([$pivot, *@values]) { quicksort(@values.grep({ $^n < $pivot })), $pivot, quicksort(@values.grep({ $^n >= $pivot })) 22:50
}
multi quicksort( () ) { () }
gah, format fail
And anyway, it wasn't producing a Capture properly for the sub-signature to look at.
PerlJam jnthn: are you going to use this to implement Array.sort? ;-)
jnthn Since it only knew what to do with a Seq (and Array)
PerlJam: lol.
PerlJam: Though no. :-) 22:51
Quicksort = bad when input data sucks.
22:51 xomas joined, xomas left, xomas joined
pmichaud jnthn: just for now, try a .Seq at the end of your greps and see what happens. 22:52
22:53 xomas left, justatheory joined
jnthn pmichaud: That does it. 22:54
pmichaud okay. It won't be that way long, though.
this is a very useful datapoint :)
we need to modify gather/take to return a list-thinking form of GatherIterator, or (perhaps more likely) GatherIterator needs to .Seq itself in item context
and act like a list in other contexts 22:55
anyway, this is a very useful example to consider/work from.
22:55 masak joined
masak oh hai. 22:55
jnthn Well, for now I can make it work with .Capture being made to lolitsmasak work on Iterator.
pmichaud I'm not sure that'd be right. 22:56
well, it'd be right if Capture honors the flattening rules.
jnthn Well
masak quick question: would @a[0, 2 ... *] DTRT and only return the even-indexed elements of @a, or would it (1) run forever, or (2) give me infinitely many Mu values at the end? 22:57
TimToady Captures never flatten according to current spec
masak I guess @a[0, 2 ... +@a] would DTRT, now that I think about it.
22:57 justatheory left
pmichaud TimToady: I mean what Capture does with an Iterator, not how a Capture itself acts in a flattening context. 22:58
jnthn pmichaud: It's more about coercing to a Capture.
pmichaud jnthn: yes, that's my point
the difference is 22:59
($iter, 2, 3).Capture
versus
(@$iter, 2, 3).Capture
jnthn ah.
pmichaud you can't just flatten any ol $iter you see
masak next question: what's the safest way to generate all the odd numbers up to $N?
TimToady same thing, I think
pmichaud guesses 1, *+2, ... $N 23:00
masak pmichaud: ah, *+2 is nice.
I was thinking 1, 3 ... $N
pmichaud fails if $N < 3, I think.
masak and it seemed problematic for $N == 1
TimToady by current spec, 1,3,5,7 ... 3 just makes 1,3
masak right.
pmichaud I haven't read updated spec.
so TimToady's comment might be more apropos
masak TimToady: oh, that's nice.
I don't understand why yet, but I guess I will :) 23:01
pmichaud so then 1,3 ... $N ?
masak guess so.
TimToady as long as $N >= 1, you're fine
masak it is.
well, um, it could be 0, I guess.
what's 1,3 ... 0 ?
jnthn pmichaud: Hmm. The initial patch I wrote doesn't help at all (for teaching iterators to coerce to capture) 23:02
pmichaud: Maybe I just show example with .Seq in.
pmichaud jnthn: you need this very soon?
requiring the .Seq would probably be very misleading 23:03
jnthn pmichaud: It was example I wrote for blog post I was about to write, and thought I should check the code in it akshually ran. ;-)
pmichaud ahhhh
can it wait 24 hrsish?
I can bump the list thinking a bit higher. needs to be resolved soon anyway.
jnthn pmichaud: Sure. 23:04
TimToady we can probably force 1,3...0 to make (), but 1...0 is always gonna make 1,0
23:04 colomon joined
TimToady but by current spec, I think 1,3...0 is the same as 1,3...* 23:05
masak without actually having read the updated spec, I'd say getting () feels better than getting 1,3...* 23:06
pmichaud wild idea -- maybe *,1,3...0 ?
nah, doesn't really give a good start point.
masak that idea was so wild I don't think I understand what it meant :P
ok, now I'm finally done translating E03. 23:08
gist.github.com/309333
I haven't run it yet, but I expect it to more-or-less run on alpha.
now to blog about it and then see what SF got :)
23:10 mssm joined
TimToady I think we can fix it so that 1,3...0 makes () 23:12
masak yay
dalek kudo/master: 3b869ce | (Martin Berends)++ | docs/compiler_overview.pod:
[docs/compiler_overview.pod] update for new master branch completed
 23:13
mberends jnthn, @others: please check docs/compiler_overview.pod for accuracy and completeness. Patches welcome :) 23:17
23:18 iblechbot left
pmichaud mberends: most of NQP is actually written in NQP. I'll fix that section. :) 23:20
jnthn mberends: Will check it. Thanks! :-) 23:21
mberends thank you too, it was very educational to go over it all 23:22
jnthn mberends: Yes, Rakudo guts are, IMO, getting less and less terrifying. 23:26
Either that or I've just ceased to see them as such. 23:27
"What a hack!" :-D 23:28
masak loliblogged! use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40195 23:30
masak looks at SF++'s code
ooh, >>.subst! 23:31
but, yeah, that won't work, since .subst in itself is non-destructive.
he meant >>.=
is there such a beast? :)
jnthn mberends: The Stages section maybe belongs as a top level
masak std: my @a; @a>>.=subst(/foo/, 'bar')
p6eval std 29782: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
jnthn masak: There is.
masak whoa. :)
that's intense. 23:32
jnthn alpha: my @a = 'food', 'fool'; @a>>.=subst(/foo/, 'bar'); say @a.perl;
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«["bard", "barl"]␤»
masak double whoa :)
jnthn Bet master doesn't quite manage it again yet.
master: my @a = 'food', 'fool'; @a>>.=subst(/foo/, 'bar'); say @a.perl;
gah
rakudo: my @a = 'food', 'fool'; @a>>.=subst(/foo/, 'bar'); say @a.perl;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«["bard", "barl"]␤»
masak \o/
jnthn holy shit
\o/
masak 哈哈 23:33
jnthn I'm getting to the point now where I've put so many bits back, I can barely remember them all.
mberends Christmas draws nearer...
jnthn heh 23:34
pugs_svn r29783 | vamped++ | minor typo fix
masak I'm kinda coming around to the view that Perl 6 is executable line noise with a superiority complex.
jnthn heh, >>.^
masak O.O
diakopter rakudo: say ['food','fool']>>.=subst(/foo/, 'bar').perl;
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«("bard", "barl")␤»
masak rakudo: $0 23:35
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 10887 (src/builtins/Iterator.pir:25)␤»
jnthn :-/
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn lta
masak and wrong.
alpha: $0 23:36
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: ( no output )
masak that's better :)
diakopter rakudo: $[0]
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 10887 (src/builtins/Iterator.pir:25)␤»
jnthn rakudo: (Rat, Complex)>>.^add_method('lol', method () { say "lolwtf" }); 1/2.lol; (1 + 2i).lol; 23:37
p6eval rakudo 3704a2: OUTPUT«lolwtf␤lolwtf␤»
jnthn Hyper-meta.
23:38 rv2733 left
chromatic Some of Rakudo's C code is still terrifying, jnthn. Don't worry. 23:38
diakopter rakudo: (Rat, Complex)>>.^add_method('', method () { say "lolwtf" }); 1/2.''(); (1 + 2i).''();
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«lolwtf␤lolwtf␤»
jnthn !! 23:39
rofl
masak ok, SF and I had many points of similarity this time. I feel a little bit bad for not getting my code to run before submitting it, but that's the obvious next step. :)
jnthn diakopter: Arguably, it's not incorrect.
:-)
masak no, it's very correct. 23:40
it's the null string method. nothing to worry about.
diakopter rakudo: [*]>>.^add_method('', method () { say "lolwtf" }); 1/2.''();
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'shift' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc 2375 (src/builtins/Mu.pir:541)␤»
masak now what happened there, really? 23:41
jnthn I...wish I knew.
diakopter 1/2.''()
rakudo: 1/2.''()
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'shift' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc 2375 (src/builtins/Mu.pir:541)␤»
masak std: [*]>>.^add_method()
p6eval std 29782: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m␤»
masak ah.
masak submits rakudobug
diakopter rakudo: [Any]>>.^add_method('', method () { say "lolwtf" }); 1/2.''();
masak diakopter: how do you come up with these things? :) 23:42
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«lolwtf␤»
jnthn diakopter: Any.^add_method will do there :-)
diakopter I'm good at being^Wplaying the novice programmer
masak novice?! .^add_method?
jnthn rakudo: 1/2.''() # no, just this gets it
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'shift' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc 2375 (src/builtins/Mu.pir:541)␤»
masak jnthn: nod. 23:43
diakopter yah, as I wrote above
jnthn I'm...completely bewildered...how.
masak jnthn: a little RT ticket will remind you to find out how :P
diakopter in the invocant
jnthn So kind of you. :-P
masak is kindness itself
jnthn oh, I know what it is
diakopter rakudo: .''() 23:44
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
masak that's wrong/lta too. 23:45
23:45 pmurias left
diakopter rakudo: .WHAT.say 23:45
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
diakopter rakudo: Mu.''()
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14244 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:52)␤»
jnthn masak: Same underlying cause as 1/2.''()
masak: Put them all on one ticket.
masak jnthn: yes, I know. I'm on it. :)
jnthn Thanks. 23:46
:-)
masak jnthn: for different tickets, you'd have seen me saying '/me submits rakudobug' twice :P
jnthn (I didn't think it was obvious it was the same underlying cause, fwiw. Thus why I mentioned it. :-))
masak no, it's obvious. :)
diakopter rakudo: Any.^add_method('', sub ($a) { say $a }); 1/2.''();
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
masak I only pretend to be ignorant of the innards of Rakudo when it serves me. :P
diakopter rakudo: Any.^add_method('', sub ($_) { $_.WHAT.say }); 1/2.''(); 23:47
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
masak rakudo: 1/2.'lolidontexist'() 23:48
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'lolidontexist' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
diakopter rakudo: Any.^add_method('', sub ($_) { $_.WHAT.say }); $_= [1/2]; .=''(); 23:49
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in elements()␤current instr.: 'perl6;SeqIter;get' pc 13737 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:122)␤»
jnthn diakopter: you'd get away with a pointy block there too fwiw.
rakudo: [].WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in elements()␤current instr.: 'perl6;SeqIter;get' pc 13737 (src/builtins/Routine.pir:122)␤»
diakopter o
jnthn Eww. That one. :-/
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn I thought I'd fixed that :-| 23:50
masak 'pparently not
diakopter rakudo: @_.'pop'().say; 23:51
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«/tmp/p7QvN9rmI9␤»
diakopter rakudo: @_.pop.say; 23:52
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«/tmp/fsPRcEaY90␤»
diakopter rakudo: @_[*-1].say;
masak diakopter: p6eval artefact.
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
masak and that one is indexing or whatever algebra not working properly, I guess. 23:53
rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[*-1]
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
jnthn I think just NYRI
masak right.
you won't get a ticket for that :)
diakopter ticket monster hungry 23:54
masak nom nom nom
masak goes looking for more kittens doing that on Youtube 23:55
jnthn: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnagRjxp7v4
diakopter rakudo: {;;;;;}.WHAT.say 23:56
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
masak Hash? really?
it's full of statements! :)
23:57 cotto_w0rk left
diakopter rakudo: {;;;(say 4)=>4;;}.WHAT.say 23:57
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«4␤Hash()␤»
diakopter rakudo: {;;;{say 4}=>4;;}.WHAT.say 23:58
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
jnthn No no, Rakudo's just telling diakopter what it thinks he's been smoking...
diakopter rakudo: {{say 4},Nom}.WHAT.say 23:59
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
diakopter rakudo: {Nom,Nom,Nom}.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
jnthn masak: Wow! nom nom nom! :-D
diakopter rakudo: {nom,nom,nom}.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 3b869c: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
diakopter erm

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