»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
00:07 ashleydev left 00:12 lest_away is now known as lestrrat 00:27 azert0x left
eternaleye TimToady: (backlogging) re the Z bug, I would thing kit was the doubled parens around the pair not collapsing correctly 00:28
Oh wait, nvm. I missed the 'for' 00:29
sorear Passed 781/815, 95.83% 00:33
34 failed 00:34
TimToady: ^^
TimToady: Why is there a parse/parsefile split? 00:37
00:38 Limbic_Region left 00:40 whiteknight left 00:43 yinyin joined 00:45 snarkyboojum left, lue joined
lue [message check] 00:45
ohai dere. I had a case of camel apathy :/
jnthn lue: You got the hump? 00:51
sorear TimToady: I wish there were a way to localize all of the compiler's contextuals in one swoop. Something like a my %*LANG, but not for $~ ...
thoughts are swirling in my head involving connecting this to COMPILING, but I'm not quite there yet 00:52
TimToady: What is Cursor.pmc 2392-2393 doing? 00:54
lue considers continuing his tutorial for Perl 6 ( you know, the MMORPG :) ) 00:56
00:57 snarkyboojum joined, snarkyboojum_ joined 01:01 snarkyboojum left, snarkyboojum_ is now known as snarkyboojum 01:07 Schwern left 01:10 christin1 is now known as christine 01:11 pausenclown left, justatheory left 01:14 xinming_ is now known as xinming, pausenclown joined
sorear TimToady: Do $*CORE and $*GLOBAL need to be contextualized? 01:14
TimToady: How does $ALL<UNIT> interact with being able to recurse into other compilation units? 01:18
sorear gives up for want of understanding the stash system 01:20
01:21 masonkramer_ left, masonkramer_ joined 01:28 gfx joined 01:30 jaldhar left 01:31 jaldhar joined
lue afk 01:33
01:33 gabiruh joined 01:36 madalu joined 01:51 plobsing joined 01:52 PenThrive joined 01:55 BrowserUk joined, lestrrat is now known as lest_away 01:57 yinyin left 01:58 yinyin joined 02:01 jaldhar left, jaldhar joined 02:07 lest_away is now known as lestrrat 02:10 BrowserUk left, ShaneC left, gbacon joined 02:13 patspam joined 02:22 [mark] joined
colomon rakudo: my { a => 1, b => 2 }.WHAT 02:22
p6eval rakudo a0b6d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 11, near "{ a => 1, "␤» 02:23
colomon rakudo: { a => 1, b => 2 }.WHAT
p6eval rakudo a0b6d7: ( no output )
colomon rakudo: { a => 1, b => 2 }.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo a0b6d7: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
02:25 xinming left 02:31 agentzh joined 02:32 madalu left 02:36 gbacon left 02:44 f00li5h joined, f00li5h left, f00li5h joined 02:47 Guest33137 left
sorear I want to kill LazyMap. 02:51
02:51 \shade\ left
sorear It's too deeply tied to the Perl 5 concepts of list context and unpacking. 02:51
02:57 meppl left 02:58 shade__ joined 03:06 skangas left 03:11 rv2733 joined, xinming joined 03:12 snarkyboojum left 03:18 shade__ left 03:24 snarkyboojum joined
dalek kudo: e92a5f4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
Allow embedded hashes in array hypers.

approximation.		 03:26
pugssvn r31094 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Tests for hypers on arrays containing hashes. 03:27
03:33 shade_ joined 03:54 snarkyboojum_ joined 03:56 snarkyboojum left, snarkyboojum_ is now known as snarkyboojum 03:58 ajs1 joined, ashleydev joined 03:59 ajs2 joined 04:00 ajs left 04:02 ajs1 left, molaf joined 04:14 snarkyboojum left 04:15 satyavvd joined 04:20 snarkyboojum joined 04:27 snarkyboojum left 04:34 patspam left 04:38 __2synth joined 04:40 __2synth85 joined 04:41 synth left, snarkyboojum joined 04:43 __2synth left 04:45 ashleydev left
pugssvn r31095 | lwall++ | [STD] don't attempt two-terms detection on infix_circumfix 04:46
04:46 JimmyZ joined
JimmyZ rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}};for '0' .. '5' -> $a { sub;}; 04:47
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$ss_SS_S_S__S_S_s' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤»
JimmyZ what?
04:48 jrtayloriv joined
JimmyZ use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say; .some_meth_1; }; 04:49
rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say; .some_meth_1; };
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«Str()␤Str()␤Method 'some_meth_1' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/MCqD6zcoAJ␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say; sub; }; 04:51
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$ss_SS_S_S__S_S_s' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤»
sorear well, first off, you always need ; after } in one-liners
04:52 jrtayloriv left
sorear secondly, iirc that string is part of p6eval's security tripwire 04:52
so you need to get a real rakudo
04:52 snarkyboojum left
JimmyZ really? 04:53
rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ”; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say;};
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 11, near "my $d = \u201d;"␤»
sorear it's definitely part of p6eval
JimmyZ rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say;};
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«Str()␤Str()␤Str()␤Str()␤Str()␤Str()␤»
JimmyZ No, I don't always need ; after } in one-liners
sorear rakudobug 04:54
JimmyZ these three are bugs.
pugssvn r31096 | lwall++ | [STD] parse >>R~<< correctly, or at least dwimmily 04:57
04:57 gfx left
TimToady sorear: Cursor:2392 establish a cut scope for :::, backtrack out of current rule 05:00
05:01 masonkramer left, masonkramer_ is now known as masonkramer
sorear TimToady: How does $::XACT work? 05:01
And why doesn't it just use cursor_xact? 05:02
TimToady cursor_xact doesn't have the right scope to localize it
p5 can't localize something in its caller 05:03
$::XACT can use the local mechanism because it's only used for setting the initial xact at an alternation point 05:06
05:06 finanalyst joined
TimToady the other cursors are just copies, so have the same .{_xact} pointer 05:06
once we're off into lazy cursor land, we only ever rely on the ->{_xact} 05:07
colomon TimToady: what was wrong with >>R~<<?
TimToady parsed as >>[R~<]<
because it only did the dwim if it was in HYPER, and R isn't HYPER 05:08
so it now does it in any kind of meta
colomon oh, ick.
TimToady yeah
it was giving the appearance of running forever on t/spec/S03-metaops/hyper.t
because of the prior bug, that looked for a term when it was expecting the << to see if it was two-terms 05:09
colomon btw, is the nested hash thing okay? It's not clear to me if it's spec or not, but it seems to make sense and was easy enough to add.
TimToady and in that particular spot, looking for a term starting with < was invoking a maze of twisty nibblers, all alike
if it makes sense, fine 05:10
perhaps the .suppose method should have a time limit on it--it was running for at least 5 minutes on my machine 05:11
there are a *lot* of nested <'s and >'s after the >>R~<< in that file... 05:12
sorear TimToady: I'm afraid I still don't follow you. Why is cursor_xact able to work in arbitrary subclasses of Cursor but not in categories?
TimToady and it was desperately trying to get the counts to match
colomon sorry...
.oO(sounds like getting STD to work with the test case was harder than implementing the feature being tested...)
 05:13
TimToady not in categories?
I don't understand your question
sorear TimToady: add_categorical doesn't use cursor_xact
you said it was because of scope issues
TimToady add_categorical does use cursor_xact 05:14
line 2396 05:15
sorear I somehow hallucinated the # as one row higher 05:17
but I still don't follow why it doesn't use my $C = $C->cursor_xact('...'); my $xact = $C->{_xact}; like viv-generated code 05:18
JimmyZ std: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}}; for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say;}; 05:22
p6eval std 31096: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m␤»
JimmyZ sorear: I don't think it's a bug
05:23 TiMBuS joined
JimmyZ std: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $d = ''; augment class Str { method some_meth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}} for '0' .. '5' { .WHAT.say;}; 05:23
p6eval std 31096: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unexpected block in infix position (two terms in a row, or previous statement missing semicolon?) at /tmp/0znKv4QYPb line 1:␤------> eth_1 {$d = $d ~ self;}} for '0' .. '5' ⏏{ .WHAT.say;};␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤
..inf…
TimToady sorear: I don't remember offhand why there's an extra RULE wrapper there, unless it's accounting for the outer proto somehow maybe 05:24
pugssvn r31097 | sorear++ | [Cursor et al] Rename Cursor to CursorBase; add a Cursor subclass 05:25
sorear that could make sense; I'll have to look at it in more detail later
TimToady in case we ever had a way to cut against the proto
(which we don't)
but then I don't know why the circumfix code below doesn't also do that... 05:26
that's about all my migrainey braney can deduce from the codey currentley
fortunately, my migraines are idiosyncratic and not generally painful 05:27
05:27 molaf left 05:28 shade_ left
sorear TimToady: What did we use before LazyMap? 05:33
TimToady pugs 05:35
actually there was an intermediate form that just generated all the lists eagerly 05:36
.*? was even more expensive back then...
sorear I want to get rid of lazymap; it's too deeply tied to Perl 5 list context semantics 05:37
and I don't think I can reasonably rewrite it in Perl6 05:38
diakopter (?:.*.?)*
05:38 rv2733 left
sorear so what I'm planning to do is change viv output to work on raw iterator functions 05:38
things that can backtrack produce iterators, things that can't produce values
what does FIXINS mean? 05:39
TimToady I dunno, I didn't write that part of the Makefile 05:40
diakopter heh
I think only pmurias worked on it other than you..?
(besides sorear)
TimToady but how will a bare iterator do all the cursor transformations that a lazymap does? those subs are there for a reason... 05:42
and I don't understand at all what you mean by "too deeply tied" 05:43
sorear I don't understand how to write a viv-Perl6 port of LazyMap 05:44
TimToady with the current setup, you can be guaranteed that the first element of the list is of type Cursor
sorear especially as it would interact with the javascript output
TimToady if you pass everything as scalars, they'd have to be polymorphic
sorear LazyRange?
TimToady and you'd have to test them everywhere for whether they were an iterator or a cursor
sorear it's always possible to know statically whether an expression is iterator-y or cursor-y 05:45
whether a regex backtracks is a static property
and it only occurs ~30 times in STD.pmc 05:46
05:50 shade_ joined 05:51 _jaldhar joined 05:52 jaldhar left
TimToady I am not convinced it can be known statically. 05:52
when you call <foo> some of the subrules could be ratchety and some of them not 05:53
you'd be forced to always expect an iterator even for the ratchety ones 05:54
by always returning at least one cursor followed by an optional iterator, we relieve the caller of that
sorear cursor + iterator? would work too 06:00
it's mostly the cursor [cursor | iterator]* that bothers me
Transmitting file data ....svn: Commit failed (details follow): 06:01
svn: Can't open file '/usr/local/src/pugs/src/perl6/boot/.svn/tmp/text-base/Cursor.pmc.svn-base': No such file or directory
06:03 shade_ left 06:06 uniejo joined
TimToady well, P6 also allows lazy lists to batch up known values 06:06
putting my poor head to bed & 06:07
sorear sleep wel 06:08
perl 6 Cursor will land in a few minutes
eternaleye sorear++ # Sustained awesomeness
06:08 shade_ joined
pugssvn r31098 | sorear++ | [Cursor] Rewrite in Perl 6, bring under bootstrap control 06:22
06:36 plobsing left 06:39 Su-Shee joined 06:40 colomon left
moritz_ good morning 06:44
eternaleye o/ 06:46
JimmyZ good morning moritz_ 06:47
06:53 shade_ left, __2synth85 left, shade_ joined
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = <a b c>; say @a[-1] 06:54
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index on arrays␤ in 'Array::postcircumfix:<[ ]>' at line 2575:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/iRY8V6NofP␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 'abc'.comb[-1]
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«c␤»
07:00 shade_ left 07:04 spinclad left, shade_ joined 07:07 shade_ is now known as \shade\
pugssvn r31099 | moritz++ | [t/spec] simple tests for combining ** quantifier and :sigspace 07:18
07:19 synth joined
dalek kudo: 8b116ff | moritz++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
bump PARROT_REVISION to get latest nqp-rx fixes for ** quantifier and :sigspace
 07:20
07:26 c9s joined 07:35 agentzh left
dalek kudo: a1695f0 | (Timothy Totten)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Implemented Date.new(::DateTime) and DateTime.Date()

Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz [email@hidden.address]		 07:43
moritz_ phenny: tell masak that his bug report for :sigpace + ** quantifier never made it to RT, but it's fixed in 8b116ff in 07:44
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
moritz_ s/in/anyway/ # where did I leave my mind? 07:45
07:51 ejs joined 07:53 mikehh left 07:56 ejs left 07:57 ejs joined 08:01 tann_ joined
tann_ rakudo: my $x = repeat { prompt "number? " } until $x == 5; 08:02
p6eval rakudo e92a5f: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤Could not find sub &repeat␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/Oa4510PDLK␤»
08:03 agentzh joined, tann_ left 08:12 bjarneh joined 08:13 skangas joined 08:16 snarkyboojum joined 08:18 pnate left
pugssvn r31100 | sorear++ | [STD,Cursor] Push error reporting functions down into the new Perl6 Cursor. You can now define non-STD grammars with viv. 08:20
08:27 dakkar joined 08:34 k-bits joined 08:40 wallberg joined 08:44 masak joined
masak oh hai from a bus! 08:44
phenny masak: 07:44Z <moritz_> tell masak that his bug report for :sigpace + ** quantifier never made it to RT, but it's fixed in 8b116ff in
08:45 snarkyboojum left
mberends oh hai to a bus, masak! 08:45
masak moritz_: actually reporting it must have slipped my mind. it's reported now though, and resolved. rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=75558 08:46
mberends: I've made some decisions regarding proto. 08:47
mberends masak: I'm all ears
masak mberends: I think 'pls' is a fitting name for whatever proto is becoming. but I also think that a rename should be accompanied by some core improvements. 08:48
so it'll be more of a Great Refactor than just a rename.
mberends agreed
08:49 masak` joined, masak`` joined 08:50 temporaryusernam joined
mberends masak's bus must be driving on a bumpy road 08:50
masak`` I think the satellite was temporarily behind a cloud.
mberends or a jumbo jet 08:51
08:51 snarkyboojum joined, yinyin left 08:52 yinyin joined
masak`` there's a troll on Twitter who seems to take pleasure in saying nasty things about Perl. twitter.com/anktastic/status/15396749783 - I've tried talking to him, which gave me a deeper understanding of the expression "feeding the troll". 08:52
08:53 masak left, masak`` is now known as masak, bjarneh left
masak I'm not at the point where I'm blocking him yet, but I kinda feel sorry for him, and want to help somehow. guess one can't help everyone, though. 08:53
08:54 masak` left 08:55 xabbu42 joined
pugssvn r31101 | sorear++ | [STD-ecosystem] Overhaul README 08:57
sorear sleep
masak rakudo: use MONKEY_TYPING; my $x = "OH HAI "; augment class Str { method foo { say $x, self } }; for "1".."5" { .foo } 09:02
p6eval rakudo a1695f: OUTPUT«OH HAI 1␤Method 'foo' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/GlDeqeEeZO␤»
masak submits rakudobug
moritz_ masak: it's enough to re-open
JimmyZ masak: the bug is in RT 09:03
masak url?
JimmyZ rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=75114 09:04
masak yep, it's already in there. good. 09:05
moritz_ is there anybody for whom t/spec/S14-roles/anonymous.rakudo has no unexpectedly passing TODOs?
09:08 xabbu42 left, xabbu42 joined
JimmyZ moritz_: yes, but occasionally 09:08
moritz_: paste.lisp.org/display/111137 09:10
moritz_ thanks 09:12
09:14 clintongormley joined
dalek p-rx: 42209fb | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
":my" in regexes is now properly declarative for LTM purposes.
 09:18
09:20 colomon joined 09:21 k-bits left 09:24 masak left, temporaryusernam left, masak joined 09:25 lestrrat is now known as lest_away, snarkyboojum left
colomon o/ 09:26
09:26 shrub joined
masak \o 09:27
09:28 gfx joined 09:31 bjarneh joined 09:32 yinyin left 09:34 masak` joined 09:38 masak left, pmurias joined
pmurias hi 09:39
colomon \o 09:40
09:40 snarkyboojum joined
mberends masak: imho a proto -> pls refactor is a big task to undertake on the Rakudo * timescale, unless it can be broken down into smaller intermediate steps. 09:41
masak` mberends: indeed. I'm just throwing the idea out there. I want to finish the Web.pm grant before digging into proto. 09:43
mberends ok, you've got my neurons oscillating
masak` for me, 'testable core' is the important feature in such a refactor. after that, it's mostly about gradually adding tests.
mberends yes, testing still rocks :) 09:44
mathw yes 09:47
testing is good
especially if you've got code written to allow it
09:48 masak`` joined
masak`` the pls core would essentially be a brain-in-a-vat, getting sensory input through some channels and sending motor instructions through others. 09:49
I should be able to whip up a proof-of-concept in a day or so.
after Web.pm is wrapped up.
09:49 masak``` joined
mathw well that's what you want for testing 09:50
logic core self-contained, no I/O done inside it
then you can just wrap tests around it
09:50 masak```` joined
mathw which carress it lovingly until it explodes 09:50
having problems, I see
masak```` yes. think of logging off for a while.
dalek kudo: 738fad4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
Extend prefix and postfix array hypers to handle nested hashes.
 09:51
mathw \o/
nice commit
masak```` colomon++
09:51 masak```` left 09:53 xabbu42 left
pugssvn r31102 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Tests for prefix and postfix array hypers with nested hashes. 09:53
09:53 masak` left 09:54 masak`` left 09:55 masak``` left
colomon slowly but surely extending hypers. 09:57
snarkyboojum I'd enjoy helping out with a proto refactor if extra hands are needed 10:00
if not, I'll just cheer from the sidelines :P 10:01
10:06 xabbu42 joined
mberends snarkyboojum: we do need a helping hand there. It's a combination of P5 and P6 code that "grew" as the needs appeared. 10:07
10:07 agentzh left
mathw I suggest... some kind of design 10:07
mberends mathw: agreed. the previous process evolved without a Grand Plan, hence the need to refactor 10:09
in the meantime, the Perl 6 module ecosystem has been given a better shape in ~/.perl6 10:10
snarkyboojum mberends: yeah, I'm kinda familiar with it - I've used it and read through the source code a couple of times 10:11
mberends :) 10:12
10:12 Chillance joined
mathw mberends: recent experience at $day-job has shown me the value of a good plan, especially on a multi-person project 10:13
mberends mathw: it's so obvious that we sometimes forget it. And everything we do in #perl6 should be multi-person :) 10:15
mathw :) 10:16
or at least potentially multi-person
mberends one design area that bothers me, is that proto cannot determine whether to install modules into ~/.perl6/lib or <parrot_install>/lib/2.4.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib 10:17
the former is personal, the latter is system 10:18
arnsholt Default to personal, add switch to install to system? 10:20
10:20 pmurias left
arnsholt And perhaps other way 'round if you're root 10:20
colomon +1
10:22 __2synth joined
snarkyboojum and/or do what cpanm is doing - install to a system perl6 unless you're using local::lib (or equiv eventually) :) 10:24
maybe
pugssvn r31103 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add fudged test for >>. on hash. 10:26
10:26 synth left 10:31 pmurias joined 10:40 proller left 10:42 proller joined 10:44 wolverian joined
colomon jnthn: ping? 10:50
10:54 pmurias left
jnthn colomon: morning! 11:03
colomon o/ 11:04
I was just looking at the code for >>.method
Seems like it would be a win if we could refactor it to use the standard >>op code. 11:05
cognominal o/ 11:06
jnthn Feel free if you can get it to work.
11:06 proller left
jnthn I guess we'd need to somehow promote the method call to a closure or soemthing. 11:06
*something
colomon jnthn: well, the thing is, I don't have a clue how to approach that in nqp.
right.
I guess if we could get the name of the method, we could do right 11:08
11:08 ejs left
jnthn colomon: What's the main win we'd get from it? 11:08
11:09 proller joined
colomon sub apply-method($method-name, $object) { $object."$method-name" } and then use assuming... 11:09
main win is it would automatically handle all the cases that aren't just a straight array.
11:09 JimmyZ left
colomon nested arrays, hashes, etc. 11:09
right now >>. is drastically stupider than >>op 11:10
jnthn OK 11:13
11:13 ejs joined
colomon just realized that the hyper subs should be a direct part of the spec -- lots of potential reuse value for non-operators... 11:16
jnthn colomon: Hmm. I don't think it'll be too hard, but perhaps not too easy either. :-) 11:19
colomon :) 11:20
jnthn Can probably have a proper go at the weekend or so.
cognominal jnthn, help : paste.lisp.org/display/111140
why ~$<name> returns "1"? 11:21
jnthn cognominal: because it's quantified 11:23
Go for ~$<name>[0]
cognominal I hate the current behavior '?' quantifier 11:24
here again I got hurt.
jnthn It's consistent with all the quantifiers, at least. 11:25
cognominal I agree, but consistency for sake of consistency has never been condoned here :) 11:27
colomon jnthn: \o/ 11:29
11:30 snarkyboojum left 11:34 ejs left 11:45 [mark] left 11:50 plainhao joined 11:53 envi^home joined 11:55 satyavvd left 11:57 meppl joined 12:01 skids left 12:08 proller left, lest_away is now known as lestrrat 12:09 Guest6050 left, proller joined 12:13 shrub1 joined 12:14 shrub left 12:16 bluescreen joined, bluescreen is now known as Guest86191
takadonet morning all 12:19
12:19 PenThrive left
colomon o/ 12:20
12:30 pausenclown left, Guest86191 left 12:34 colomon left 12:45 Guest86191 joined 12:47 kaare joined, kaare is now known as Guest48560 12:58 finanalyst left 12:59 gfx left 13:00 bjarneh left
mathw It's so quiet today 13:00
13:00 colomon joined
mathw In the office, online... 13:00
even in here!
jnthn OH HAI MATHW 13:06
It's Friday afternoon. Nobody trusts themselves to do anything right. ;-)
mathw lolitsjnthn
half my office are on holiday
mathw scowls
jnthn Wait, it is Friday right...
mathw yes it's Friday
jnthn ah 13:07
13:07 M_o_C joined
jnthn Thursday mighta been preferable. Still quite a bit to prepare for $dayjob-project-showing-off. 13:07
otoh, at least it's going well. :-) 13:08
mathw: Wasn't it bank holiday in the UK on Monday? 13:09
mathw yes 13:10
it's also half term
13:10 snarkyboojum joined
jnthn Ah 13:11
13:11 ejs joined
jnthn Can imgine they combine to give a lot of people having time off. 13:11
mathw yes
there are definitely some parents who've had the four days off 13:12
and lots of people off today, tacking an extra day on the weekend
jnthn Well, if the weather is as nice there as it is here, I can't blame 'em. :-) 13:13
mathw it's lovely today
really sunny and clear
and I'm stuck in an office with overactive air conditioning :(
it's actually cold in here
ridiculous
jnthn Quite the energy waste. 13:15
mathw yes 13:16
and on a day when it's so hot outside, I shouldn't need to be considering bringing a jumper to keep me warm in the office!
although when the air con fails, this building gets very uncomfortable very quickly so I am kind of glad it's on...
it's not designed sensibly
jnthn Let me guess, in winter the heating is so good you can work in a t-shirt? :-) 13:18
mathw mostly 13:20
but it's got a lot of help from all the computers :)
if they were really clever they could pipe heat from the server room into the offices in the winter
but they're not that cunning
13:21 masonkramer_ joined, masonkramer left, masonkramer_ is now known as masonkramer, ejs left 13:24 bjarneh joined 13:27 ejs joined 13:29 skids joined 13:33 M_o_C left 13:35 Chillance left 13:36 ejs left 13:46 pmurias joined 13:49 clsn left, snarkyboojum left 14:01 JimmyZ joined
JimmyZ p6c 14:03
14:04 spinclad joined 14:07 uniejo left
pmurias JimmyZ: ? 14:10
JimmyZ hello?
pmurias hi 14:11
JimmyZ hello 14:12
14:12 arthur-_ joined, ash__ joined 14:13 xomas_ is now known as xomas, arthur-_ left
jnthn Wow...so nice outside. :-) 14:21
jnthn wishes laptops weren't so uncomfy for him, otherwise he could go and hack in a the park for a bit
ash__ and screen's were decent in sunlight 14:25
14:25 macdaddy joined
jnthn points out the low-tech solution of a shady tree :-) 14:25
14:26 macdaddy is now known as Guest75571
ash__ true, those work most of the time 14:27
the new macbook pro's from apple get 9 hours of battery life, my friend just got one, they are really nifty...
jnthn Nice 14:28
I thought my ThinkPad comfortably managing around six hours was good going. :-)
14:29 pmurias left
mathw it is 14:29
ThinkPads have trackpoints 14:30
therefore they are far superior to any shiny thing from apple
ash__ lol, this reminds me of a patent apple got recently, its for using external light (eg. sunlight) to light a screen instead of led's gizmodo.com/5502431/apple-patent-ap...d-sunlight 14:31
jnthn mathw: Yes, but they're not shinier. Isn't that what matters most? ;-) 14:32
mathw jnthn: no
I much prefer my ThinkPad to my Powerbook G4 14:33
even though ti was very nice and far superior to the Dell I had afterwards
but I always wanted a ThinkPad
and now I've got one
jnthn #
oops
Yeah, I had one for several years, until the point it was just too slow. 14:34
I work on this thing that's quite resource intensive now and then...
:-)
dalek ok: e5b650b | moritz++ | src/operators.pod:
[ops] typo, whiteknight++
 14:36
ash__ i am making progress on my GSoC NCI work, i hope it gets done before Rakudo* comes out, then you can dynamically make any signature for FFI calls you want 14:37
mathw \o/
ash__ i think that would lower the bar for use a lot, since you don't have to make C extensions to use most libraries 14:38
s/bar/bar of entry/
err
i fail english
moritz_ might buy an Acer UL30a for $work 14:39
it has a nominal battery life of 12H 14:40
jnthn ash__: Nice!
ash__++
moritz_ dual core, 4G ram... 13.3" display 14:41
14:41 proller left
jnthn ash__: Is it suing some existing FFI library? Or home-grown? 14:41
ash__ libffi
jnthn ok
Know how well it builds/works on Win32?
ash__ which is supported on a large number of systems
yes, it works on windows
jnthn \o/ 14:42
ash__: Anything in Parrot trunk yet?
ash__ there are some platform specific things, like for instance if I wanted to load libc on OS X, or linux i'll ask for a library called libc, but on windows its msvcrt 14:43
not yet, but when i do, it should be merged eventually
14:43 proller joined
jnthn OK, it'd be cool to have that before R*. 14:44
ash__ github.com/atgreen/libffi it lists Windows as supported platforms (x86 and x86-64) but if you use the windows compiler you have to configure it with an additional parameter 14:46
14:46 estrabd joined 14:47 gbacon joined 14:56 ashleydev joined
jnthn ash__: Eww. 14:56
ash__: To build it with MS VC++ you still need MinGW!
ash__ really?
14:56 ejs joined
jnthn Yeah, but tbh for Windows users I suggest just make a binary and link to it somewhere, or better link to an existing one. 14:56
(if there is such a thing) 14:57
14:57 dual left
mberends would that akshually make zavolaj redundant? 14:57
jnthn mberends: No, it makes Zavolaj useful :-)
Well, usefuller.
mberends :-) :-)
yeah, flexibler 14:58
jnthn mberends: We already rely on Parrot's NCI today. This means we can support any signature rather than just those Parrot gives us.
mberends ash__++
ash__ i'll see if i can find a libffi pre-built for windows, i know before 3.0.10 (which hasn't actually been released yet) there were a set of patches that were needed for it to build on windows, but they have them merged into the core now. I know python uses libffi for its ctypes (the same thing as nci) and they bundle libffi in the core source code with the patches applied 15:03
jnthn ash__: Heh, I could always download Python binary build...just for the libffi. ;-)
ash__ i don't know if its a separate part or if they just put it all into python's main dll 15:04
jnthn
.oO( Python guys: Even the Perl 6 team find a use for Python! )
15:13 JimmyZ left 15:26 pnu left 15:27 _jaldhar left, pnu joined
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:31
PerlJam good morning pm. How's life?
pmichaud About the same 1/2 :-) 15:32
15:32 Guest43663 joined 15:33 patspam joined
jnthn morning, pmichaud 15:33
PerlJam pmichaud: your name came up at the TCOON meeting yesterday 15:35
15:36 ruoso left
PerlJam pmichaud: Doug asked if we could hire you to document all of the software for datums processing and write a little manual for it. 15:36
15:38 jaldhar joined 15:39 proller left
pmichaud PerlJam: easier (and cheaper) would be if we just got you or other members of TCOON to ask me questions and I write responses and you guys make a manual out of that :) 15:39
(and faster, likely)
PerlJam Since jrizzo is supposedly going to learn how it all works so that he can do the processing, he might be the right person to ask questions. 15:41
But somehow I think he's as adverse to writing manuals as the rest of us.
pmichaud Right. But I suspect that in my current situation I'm more adverse. :) 15:42
PerlJam indeed
15:42 proller joined
pmichaud also, I figure I kinda owe CBI some work, so I'm not sure I'd want to be paid for it. 15:43
15:44 jaldhar left
PerlJam If you want to work for free, I'd rather you work on something more fun (for all of us) than a manual :) 15:44
pmichaud well, for the next eight weeks I'm unlikely to work on anything other than Rakudo. :-)
jnthn :-) 15:45
PerlJam oh, and Dale Crocket asked about you too.
15:46 k23z__ joined
k23z__ just saw on reddit a question about a GUI toolkit 15:46
I'm writing my own toolkit in C++ from scratch on top of SDL 15:47
SDL offers just basic graphics primitives
and is also portable, as a result the toolkit will be portable
anyone interested in writing bindings ? :) hehe
pmichaud PerlJam: I noticed that TCOON stations how have their own facebook pages?!?
PerlJam pmichaud: and the data are broadcast via twitter too 15:48
several of the sponsors (and potential sponsors) were very excited about that.
pmichaud sometimes I worry about you guys.
:-)
jnthn omgzweb2.0! 15:49
:-)
[particle] what, they don't use twitter?
jnthn says, while hacking on shiny AJAX thingy
PerlJam pmichaud: if the tcoon stations get their own myspace pages ... *then* you should start to worry ;)
pmichaud or if they start showing up on match.com 15:50
15:51 ruoso joined
Su-Shee jnthn: we're at web 3.5 already. please update. :) ("HTML 5, CSS 3") 15:57
jnthn Oh noes...my skills are out of date!
15:58 ejs left, TiMBuS left
Su-Shee jnthn: but it's VERY shiny! 15:59
ok, actually it's really cool and will make serious web development extremely nicer and powerful. 16:00
16:00 uvtc joined
arnsholt Is there an established Perl 6 idiom for a for loop where you need a counter variable? 16:02
colomon arnsholt: counter by itself, or counter along with a value?
uvtc Hi. I've got Parrot + Rakudo installed into /usr/local/parrot and would like to try installing a few modules for it. I've created a /usr/local/perl6lib directory to house those modules. Is there any sort of standard yet for how to go about installing the modules listed at proto.perl6.org/ ? 16:03
arnsholt Along with a value
pmichaud arnsholt: for @list.kv -> $index, $value { ... }
arnsholt Oooh, nice. Thanks muchly
16:04 estrabd left, estrabd joined
uvtc I mean, if you want to install by-hand, rather than using Proto. 16:05
Analogous to Perl 5's: perl Build.PL ./Build ./Build test ./Build install
16:07 dual joined 16:10 lestrrat is now known as lest_away, proller left 16:11 ashleydev_ joined 16:14 ashleydev left 16:15 xabbu42 left, xabbu42 joined
arnsholt Does the @ sigil imply List or Array? 16:16
pmichaud currently "Positional" 16:17
mberends k23z__: yes, I'm interested in writing bindings (using zavolaj) for native libraries
uvtc FWICT, there's no standard ATM. Will just copy files manually into place if not using Proto. 16:18
arnsholt Ah. In S32/Containers I see stuff like method foo(@values:) for both List and Array. That would then be a bit wrong for both, right?
pmichaud arnsholt: possibly, but possibly not. 16:19
arnsholt Hmm?
mberends uvtc: before choosing your own custom directories, consider using the standard ones listed in: perl6 -e'.say for @*INC' 16:20
k23z__ mberends, what's zavolaj ? 16:21
uvtc mberends: Thanks. I see. Per-user ones can go in ~/.perl6/lib and system ones can go into .../parrot/lib/2.4.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib . 16:22
mberends k23z__: the Rakudo link to Parrot NCI: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj
uvtc: correct!
16:23 rokoteko joined
uvtc mberends: That said, I think a 3rd option would be useful: system modules that you don't want to install under the parrot directory. That is, if I wipe out and reinstall Parrot + Rakudo, I'd like to still have my system Perl 6 modules around somewhere. 16:23
16:24 justatheory joined
sorear return 16:24
mberends uvtc: good point. I think the planned proto -> pls refactor should take your scenario into account
16:24 proller joined
uvtc mberends: "proto -> pls"? 16:25
mberends we're expecting to refactor proto "soon", and pls my be its new name
*may be
eternaleye arnsholt: Positional is a role. Array does it, Seq does it, etc. 16:26
arnsholt True. But Something that does Positional is not necessarily an Array or a Seq, no? 16:27
moritz_ no
arnsholt But I suppose that might not be a problem
16:27 shrub1 left
uvtc mberends: Thanks. Do you happen to know if "pls" is an acronym for something? 16:27
mberends: just curious. 16:28
moritz_ ./pls install foo
uvtc Hahaha. :)
16:28 wallberg left
arnsholt I'm just glad it's not plz =) 16:28
Although if it were called plzen we could abbreviate it to plz ^^
jnthn "Perl Library System" 16:29
mberends ./pls gimme foo
jnthn arnsholt: If it were called plzen I'd drink it!
arnsholt Me too =D
Su-Shee jnthn: wrong. "polite library system" :) 16:30
jnthn Su-Shee: Nice :-)
Su-Shee I'm totally for pls. :)
it makes so much more sense.. pls delete foo, pls install bar, pls update xyz .. great :) 16:31
pmichaud 16:27 <arnsholt> True. But Something that does Positional is not necessarily an Array or a Seq, no?
correct, which is partially why I said @ _currently_ means Positional. It may change.
jnthn mberends: pls call it that ;-) 16:34
pmichaud ./pls install cheezburger kthxbye
pls +1 16:35
jnthn Nice, now I know what to call my next 2 Perl 6 modules.
16:35 eternaleye left
mberends :-) 16:35
Su-Shee jnthn: HugMe and KissMe? ;) 16:36
jnthn EALREADYHUGME 16:37
pmichaud why would that be an E, exactly? ;-)
Su-Shee pls is definetely cool. :)
16:38 bjarneh left, bjarneh joined
jnthn pmichaud: Well here the prefix stands for "Excellent!" 16:38
:-)
[particle] i can't believe pls hasn't already been taken by some linux pkg, but i can't find it with apt-get 16:39
pls make me a sandwich 16:40
pmichaud IT'S OURS NOW!!!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!
uvtc sudo pls make me a sandwich
Su-Shee pls test foobar. nice. 16:41
uvtc For running tests that come with Perl 6 modules, is it simply `cd project-dir; perl6 t/*`?
ash__ uvtc: make test 16:43
rokoteko hm. the 'Perl 5 to perl 6' tutorial (at perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6) says 'Since everything is an object, you can call methods on arrays' in the chapter talking about arrays it states 'perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6' ... is sub foo { 3, 1, 2 4 }; foo.sort(); expected to DWIM then?
phenny rokoteko: 22 May 18:53Z <TimToady> tell rokoteko you want something like: my $x = { map { $^x * 2}, @_ }; say $x(1..5);
rokoteko: 22 May 18:56Z <TimToady> tell rokoteko Yes, ... is a dwimmy "series" operator, while .. is just interval ranges; === is exact type and value equivalence, while == is forced numeric as in p5
16:44 ashleydev_ left
pmichaud rokoteko: if you're expecting it to sort the return values, then yes -- I think it dwym 16:44
ash__ rakudo: sub foo { 4, 2, 3, 1}; say foo.sort;
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1234␤»
jnthn rokoteko: Note that you're calling the sub and sorting the returns, not calling .sort on the sub
rokoteko ah. brilliant. I should learn to use the bots here or compile perl6.
jnthn rokoteko: To call an actual method on a sub you stick an & before it, fyi. 16:45
ash__ you can /msg p6eval rakudo: + code and it will give the result
uvtc ash__: From looking at some of the modules listed at proto.perl6.org/ (I assume this is currently the main Perl 6 module listing), some don't come with a makefile (though some come with a Makefile.in and a Configure script ...)
ash__ or do it here if you want others to see it
jnthn rakudo: sub foo($a, $b?) { }; say &foo.signature.perl
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«:(Any $a, Any $b?)␤»
TimToady is going into the shower to think about whether Positional should delegate unrecognized methods to its 0th element if .elems == 1 16:46
16:46 Maddingue[work] left
TimToady would take the agony out of ? quantifiers, methinks 16:46
rokoteko TimToady: man that's amazing what just happened.
Su-Shee jnthn: could you please repeat "call a method on a sub"? ;) how do I call a method on a method then? ;)
rokoteko TimToady: I guess Im repeating myself instead of reading the docs. ;) 16:47
TimToady you can say that again
Su-Shee rokoteko: read the specs directly and code "like it feels right". you usally hit the right stuff.
16:47 cdarroch joined, cdarroch left, cdarroch joined
jnthn Su-Shee: Get hold of the method somehow and call on it. :-) 16:48
ash__ uvtc: sorry, i thought you meant the core perl6 tests
rokoteko hm. the 'Perl 5 to perl 6' tutorial (at perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6) says 'Since everything is an object, you can call methods on arrays' in the chapter talking about arrays it states 'Since everything is an object, you can call methods on arrays' is sub foo { 3, 1, 2 4 }; foo.sort(); expected to DWIM then?
# just trying it out.
jnthn Su-Shee: .^methods for example
rakudo: class A { method m($x) { } }; say A.^methods[0].signature.perl 16:49
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«:(Mu : Any $x;; *%_)␤»
rokoteko Im clueless. but Im sure there are a lot of powers beside my understanding. Just never thought it would happen on irc. ;)
ash__ rakudo: say (1, 2).^methods 16:50
Su-Shee jnthn: why do I even ask.. ;)
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<[
..]>listACCEPTShashfmtsortSeqiteratorBoolitemdefinedrotateperlCaptureofelemsIntlistNumeagerelemsSeqStrceilingunpolarsamecasefloorsubstrasechordroundflipsplitmatchacosecacoshwordscosechcotanatan2ucfirstcombtanatancosacosfmtevalchoptanhsubstNumericchompindexchracotanht…
jnthn rakudo: say (1, 2).WHAT # Parcel, I guess 16:51
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
rokoteko jnthn: so are you saying that foo.sort.map{} is ok, but it's not lazy?
jnthn rokoteko: Well, I think a sort kinda can't be lazy in some senses. But it's possible (but not for sure) that the sort could be delayed until the .map first needs a value.
ash__ @a = foo ==> *.sort ==> map: { } ; # is that right? for feeds 16:52
jnthn ash__: hmm...maybe you'd want instead 16:53
foo ==> *.sort ==> map: { } ==> @a
rokoteko jnthn: in other words; my $count = 0; foo.map{$count++ < 10}.sort.map{}; sub foo { 1..Inf } .. is it dwimmy? 16:54
ash__ oh, i have it backwards, <== is feed
jnthn ash__: Well, both are, you can do either direction :-)
ash__ oh, got ya
rokoteko oh wait. it misses a last.
ash__ rakudo: my $count = 0; foo.map{$count++ < 10}.sort.map{}; sub foo { 1..Inf };
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«No candidates found to invoke␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/37z1JkorBt␤»
rokoteko jnthn: in other words; my $count = 0; foo.map{$count++ < 10 and last}.sort.map{}; sub foo { 1..Inf } .. is it dwimmy?
jnthn map wants the thing you pass to it to be in a closure there, fwiw 16:55
rokoteko ok, this is bit kludgish, but hope you get my point of passing the Inf list through a map and a sort before checking when to end.
jnthn oh, and "or last"
But I think it would do what you want yes
At the moment though map doesn't handle "last" etc
rokoteko ah brilliant.
jnthn But it should.
ash__ rakudo: my $count = 0; (1..Inf).map: { $count++ if $^a < 10 or last }
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 11, near "(1..\x{1c}Inf)."␤» 16:56
sorear also, map { $count++ < 10 or last } is spelled batch(10)
16:56 bjarneh left
sorear what does .map{}; mean? 16:56
jnthn sorear: It means a : is missing :-)
rokoteko rakudo: batch(10).map{$_++}.sort.map{$_ % 4}.(1..Inf) 16:57
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &batch␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/iFuS0oquq5␤»
rokoteko sorear: where is batch() defined?
sorear Not sure
16:57 dakkar left
sorear it is defined, and it works beautifully 16:57
ah 16:58
S07:196
jnthn takes a little break
ash__ rakudo: my $count = 0; eager(1..Inf).map: { print $^a; $count++ if $^a < 10 or last }; print $count; # how do you make it not lazy again? 16:59
p6eval rakudo 738fad: ( no output )
ash__ that was a bit more lazy than i meant it to be
rokoteko sorear: can you show an example of it working with the eval bot? Im bit confused. Hope you pardon my questions. :/
colomon ash__: pretty sure saying eager(1..Inf) is a Bad Idea. 17:00
17:00 uvtc left
PerlJam indeed 17:00
ash__ good point..
rakudo: my $count = 0; eager(1..100).map: { print $^a; $count++ if $^a < 10 or last }; print $count;
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«0»
17:03 k23z__ left
rokoteko TimToady: btw. thanks for explanation of the difference with "==" and "===" .. 17:04
17:07 PacoLinux left, PacoLinux joined
cognominal is there a class that all hash, array and scalar nature at once without all the bagage of a Signature? 17:08
17:09 supernovus joined
PerlJam "nature at once"? 17:10
17:11 ashleydev joined, PacoLinux_ joined, PacoLinux left, PacoLinux_ is now known as PacoLinux
cognominal A signature can act as a scalar, or an array, or an hash. That's what I want. 17:11
colomon rakudo: my $count = 0; (1..100).map: { print $^a; $count++ if $^a < 10 or last }.eager; print $count; 17:12
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Method 'eager' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/Q0GrWJO32J␤»
colomon rakudo: my $count = 0; ((1..100).map: { print $^a; $count++ if $^a < 10 or last }).eager; print $count;
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«12345678910␤ in <anon> at line 1␤ in main program body at line 5466:CORE.setting␤»
colomon last doesn't work properly in map yet, I think. 17:14
17:14 Guest43663 left
cognominal hum, may be I just can't use a Signature. Probably, I will not be hurt by its extra behaviors. 17:15
17:16 azert0x joined
cognominal or I could derive from the Capture PMC without adding anything 17:16
supernovus Creating patches for rakudo is easy enough, but how would I go about sending a patch for a spectest? svn is not as nice in this case. Would an svn diff work? 17:18
17:18 justatheory left 17:19 proller left, proller joined
[Coke] sure. or you could just get a commit bit. 17:19
supernovus Hi [Coke], how would I go about getting a commit bit? 17:21
[Coke] most folks here can hand one out for pugs. 17:22
17:22 justatheory joined
[Coke] they'd just need your email addy 17:22
17:23 justatheory left
rokoteko Su-Shee: oh man, you were lying. it's not dwimmy at all. :/ 17:24
[particle] i can hand out a commit bit...
Su-Shee rokoteko: it is! just do what _I_ mean! ;) 17:25
[Coke] er, email addy and a desired userid.
Su-Shee rokoteko: and don't start with high end golf.
[Coke] (and this is why I dislike "dwim" =-) 17:26
rokoteko Im trying to avoid assigning to operators in between calls to functions. is that wrong?
s/operators/variables/
17:26 proller_ joined
[particle] supernovus: what's your email address and preferred username? 17:26
supernovus Well, my e-mail addy is easy enough, avoiding spam-bots from harvesting the IRC logs, it's the current year AT huri dot net and 'novus' for userid or 'supernovus' if the prior is unavailable.
[particle] sweet
TimToady I think I convinced myself in the shower that treating <atom>? the same as <atom>**0..1 is a mistake, and ? should go back to being special cased to return a scalar or undefined
Su-Shee rokoteko: remember this quote about premature optimaziation? ;)
17:27 proller left
[particle] send an invite to 2010@... /novus 17:27
Su-Shee optimization.
TimToady and I think we can change it back without too much pain, since .[0] is a no-op on a scalar
[particle] might take a few minutes to get it. speak up if something goes wrong
rokoteko Su-Shee: If I wouldnt be prematurely optimizing I would be trying to do this in perl5. 17:28
TimToady pmichaud: ^^^
pmichaud TimToady: !!!!
.[0] is a no-op on a scalar?
really?
TimToady and I think with the current setup we induce an unnecessary FAQ
pugs: say 42.[0].[0].[0]
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
pmichaud okay, I can make that work.
TimToady rakudo: say 42.[0].[0].[0] 17:29
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
pmichaud Changing the meaning of ? now is going to cause a lot of nqp pain. :-(
Su-Shee rokoteko: well then you have to up you understanding of dwim :)
TimToady at worst, it creates a list via Any and indexes that
supernovus thanks [particle] the mail has arrived :-)
pmichaud TimToady: <atom>? <other> <atom>? would still result in an array, yes? 17:30
TimToady yes, presumably 17:31
multiple mentions always have that effect
pmichaud okay, here's the issue I see.
supernovus hmm, the link to set my password appears to be broken though.
pmichaud in the case of match objects, .[0] is never a no-op
TimToady $<atom>[0] always gets the first <atom>, which may or may not be defined 17:32
pmichaud I would think that $<atom> would give me the 0-capture from within the atom subrule. 17:33
sorry, $<atom>[0]
token atom { (xyz) }; token expr { <atom>? }
TimToady that's already not true for <atom>*
pmichaud $<atom>[0] means something entirely different if $<atom> is a match object instead of an array. 17:34
I feel like I must be missing something obvious. 17:35
supernovus never mind, google chrome and port 6666 don't seem to like each other... firefox works fine
pmichaud I just don't see how "we can change it back ..." can be true. 17:36
rokoteko my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x(1..5) # can I pass another array as an input to $x ? 17:38
ie. $x((1..3), (1..4)) ? 17:39
colomon rokoteko: yes, but that's not really the way to do it.
pugssvn r31104 | novus++ | Tests for DateTime.Date() and Date.new(::DateTime) added.
colomon or wait, maybe it will work? 17:40
it's not very idiomatic p6, at any rate, IMO.
pmichaud anyway, I'm ultimately fine if we change $<atom>? to be undef/match instead of always an array, but I don't think it's an easily reversible decision.
[particle] novus++ 17:41
rokoteko rakudo: my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x(1..10)
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«45678»
rokoteko colomon: how am I supposed to do it then?
pmichaud (as evidenced by the fact that is itself a reversal that isn't easily made for existing code)
*that this
17:43 xabbu42 left, hercynium joined
rokoteko rakudo: my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x($_) for ((1..10), (11..20)) 17:44
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«4567891011121314151617181920212223»
rokoteko ahh it works. how is this not perl6'ish?
supernovus Well, in both cases trivial stuff, but yesterday was my first patch to rakudo, and today my first commit to the test suite. :-)
rokoteko $x = {} .. then you can only do $x($scalar) not a $x(@list) ?
17:45 stephenlb joined
TimToady pmichaud: okay, I will think about how best to get there from here. 17:46
commuting &
pmichaud TimToady: I'm only asking that if we do change it, we don't later decide to change it back yet again. :)
as it is, this is a change that will affect a lot of existing p6-code.
rokoteko and my point being, which I think TimToady has been trying to explain me many times, the above with $x(1..*) is not supposed to work, correct? 17:47
pmichaud rokoteko: why would $x(1..*) not work? 17:48
colomon pmichaud: well, it wouldn't work under the last list revamp proposal I saw... 17:49
pmichaud (and note that 1..* can be a scalar... anything can be a scalar)
colomon rakudo: my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x(1..*) 17:50
p6eval rakudo 738fad: ( no output )
pmichaud rakudo may fail there simply becuase lists are not yet sufficiently lazy.
*because
that's not a restriction of the language.
rokoteko pmichaud: ah. with the scalar issue I was referring to $x(@list_of_lists) .. the 1..* is a different issue. and I think it doesn't work, because I tried it out.
pmichaud rokoteko: "list of lists" makes me think you're really looking for Slicels 17:51
rokoteko Might be. I have no idea what they are. can you give an example? :)
pmichaud rokoteko: note that Rakudo has many things "not quite right" with respect to lists, so you can't say "rakudo fails this case, therefore it's not valid Perl 6".
rokoteko pmichaud: and thanks for the correction with the 1..* -issue. so it's problem with implementation, not with the language. :)
pmichaud in fact, the entire list specification needs a rework, which is what did last weekend (and what I'm continuing today) 17:52
(and that's why I said @-sigils "currently" mean Positional, because there's a small chance that will need to change)
rokoteko pmichaud: nods. Im no only here to figure out reasons for learning perl6 compared to keep on trying to learn perl5. :) 17:53
colomon pmichaud: I'm still inclined to think @-sigils meaning Positional is a bad idea. 17:54
rokoteko pmichaud: do you really mean Slicels or did you just mistype slices, that happen to work in a weird way in perl6?
colomon rokoteko: he means Slicels.
they're not yet implemented, so far as I know. 17:55
rokoteko rakudo: my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x([(1..10), (11..20)]) 17:57
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 23» 17:58
colomon pmichaud: The thing is that Positional is much much weaker than Perl programmers expect @vars to be.
17:58 pmurias joined
pmurias ruoso: ping 17:58
diakopter pmurias: hi
pmurias diakopter: hi
diakopter: how's stuff?
rokoteko my $x = { @_.map({ ++$_}).map({ ++$_ }).map({ ++$_ }).batch(5)}; print $x(([1..10], [20..30])) 17:59
man. it always seems to flatten the lists. where I can read about what Slicels are? 18:00
18:01 ajs2 left
diakopter pmurias: slow. I'm an invalid, convalescing from a back injury 18:01
pmurias :( 18:03
jnthn diakopter: Aww. Hope you recover quickly.
18:04 envi^home left
pmichaud colomon: (Positional) I agree. 18:05
18:05 clintongormley left 18:06 clintongormley joined
colomon pmichaud: of course, if we're planning on making iterators upgrade to List/Seq/Array, then Positional can too... 18:06
pmichaud I'm not planning on that currently -- I think that's a mistake at the moment. 18:07
I think that iterators should remain scalar unless explicitly told to upgrade.
18:07 estrabd is now known as estrabd_brb
colomon pmichaud: oooo, a change in plans. 18:07
pmichaud well, the last plan I saw (on the mailing list) I don't think is workable. 18:08
pmurias diakopter: is you injury serious?
diakopter pmurias: I doubt it 18:10
actually it might give me more hacking time
we'll see
18:11 estrabd_brb is now known as estrabd
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1..*).batch(10); say ~(1..*)[^10] 18:11
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Method 'batch' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/EOQlJ9I4Zl␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1...*).batch(10); say ~(1...*)[^10] 18:12
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
TimToady thinks [^10] is not lazy
pmichaud not yet. :-)
actually, it should be lazy, as it just produces a Range.
but the subscripting might not be lazy 18:13
TimToady yet... :)
rokoteko TimToady: ok. now Im not understanding the "..." operator again. what did you say about types related to this again?
'=== is exact type and value equivalence' I thought you meant something like Int $foo vs String $foo ... ? 18:15
TimToady rakudo: say "42" == 42
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1␤» 18:16
TimToady rakudo: say "42" === 42
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady different types, so aren't the same
== coerces to numeric, and then they're equal
rokoteko but what about your example above with .batch(10) ? ~ is not a "not" operator as in perl5? 18:17
TimToady ~ is string concat in p6
colomon rokoteko: ~ is stringification in p6
TimToady because we used . for method calls
18:17 hudnix left
rokoteko so ~(1...*) forces the $_ to be a string ? 18:18
TimToady yes, prefix ~ is stringify, which is the same as concat with ''
yes
well, there's no $_ there
but it's not applied to the (1...*), but to the (1...*).batch(10)
rokoteko nods. sorry. Im a beginner in your language, but I think I get your point.
TimToady methods are tighter than prefixes 18:19
colomon which is good, because otherwise it would be an infinite string.
TimToady are you familiar with p5?
colomon (and infinite strings are not yet implemented. ;)
rokoteko TimToady: I would say somewhat yes.
TimToady okay, many things are the same, and most p6 things can be explained in terms of p5
rokoteko TimToady: several years of perl5 'knowledge' behind, to be more exact.
TimToady that's okay, though if you'd played with Moose, you'd have a headstart on p6 OO 18:20
rokoteko I know bit of Moose, so Im aware of stuff like that Int $str exists. but never used Moose in practise. also I know a bit about how Moose is implement, about the meta-system etc. no need to hook to methods, because you can just modify what they actually do. 18:22
TimToady we do wrapping slightly differently in p6
18:23 justatheory joined
TimToady we consider "before" and "after" to be redundant with "around" semantics 18:23
18:23 justatheory left 18:24 justatheory joined
TimToady or whatever that's called in Moose 18:24
18:24 ash__ left 18:25 patrickas joined
patrickas saba7o perlsixers 18:25
rokoteko ... sorry Im not that familiary with Moose. considering: sub foo { .. }, do you mean: { do_stuff_before(); sub foo {..}; do_stuff_after() }; .. or { sub foo { do_stuff_before(); .. do_stuff_after(); } }? 18:27
pugssvn r31105 | patrickas++ | Added tests for advent calendar day 18
patrickas ping jnthn 18:28
18:28 supernovus left
jnthn pong patrickas 18:28
18:30 gbacon left 18:31 gbacon joined
TimToady more like when you call foo(), you actually: get do_stuff_before(); inner_foo(); do_stuff_after() 18:33
s/: get/ get:/
pmichaud afk, lunch 18:35
rokoteko to me that sounds like the latter example of mine. but ok, go on with the "..." and "there's no $_ there" explanation, if you arent in a hurry.
TimToady in a meeting, so distracted... 18:40
colomon rokoteko: (1...*).batch(10) produces a list of 10 numbers, starting from 1 and counting up.
rokoteko ah no probs, I can chat about this again, or someone else willing can explain it to me. :)
s/again/another time/
colomon applying prefix ~ to that converts that list to a string.
rakudo: say ~(1...10) 18:41
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
colomon rakudo: say ~(1...*).batch(10)
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
rokoteko colomon: yes I understood that. but as a side question. how would you force it to be a string? "~~" or maybe "!~" ?
colomon rokoteko: you're seeing it right there.
rakudo: say ~(1...10)
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
colomon rakudo: say 1...10
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
pugssvn r31106 | patrickas++ | Added a currently skipped failing test for roles
colomon If you don't force it to be a string, you don't get the spaces between the numbers.
rokoteko rakudo: say ~("a".."d") 18:42
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«a b c d␤»
18:43 ashleydev left
pugssvn r31107 | lwall++ | [viv] make sure concise has \n on the end 18:43
colomon If you say $a ~ $b, that forces both $a and $b to strings and concats them.
if you say ~$a, it just forces $a to be a string.
or, as TimToady says, it's like saying "" ~ $a. 18:44
There is an equivalent operator for numbers, +
ack, sorry, sloppy language there.
pugssvn r31108 | lwall++ | [viv] move "\n" guarantee down into spew 18:45
colomon it doesn't change $a or $b, it just returns their values as strings.
rakudo: my $a = 10; say (~$a).WHAT; say $a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Str()␤Int()␤»
rokoteko this might be a bit sily question, but Im definitely missing something essential here. how do you do a say @$_ for (["a".."b"], [1..3]) in perl6 as compared to perl5? 18:47
colomon rakudo: for [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]] -> $a { say $a; say $a.perl; say $a.WHAT } 18:51
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6␤[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]]␤Array()␤»
cognominal say @( $_ ) for ["a".."b"], [1..3] # would do it, I guess 18:52
colomon rakudo: for ([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]) -> $a { say $a; say $a.perl; say $a.WHAT }
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤[1, 2, 3]␤Array()␤4 5 6␤[4, 5, 6]␤Array()␤»
TimToady @$_ should work too
colomon rakudo: for ([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]) -> $a { say $a; say $a.perl; say $a.WHAT; say +@$a }
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 11␤»
colomon I don't think @$_ works in rakudo. 18:53
rakudo: for ([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]) -> $a { say $a; say $a.perl; say $a.WHAT; say +@($a) }
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤[1, 2, 3]␤Array()␤3␤4 5 6␤[4, 5, 6]␤Array()␤3␤»
TimToady it *should* work :)
colomon @($_) works.
PerlJam TimToady: is @$_ the same as @($_) ?
TimToady yes
std: @$_ 18:54
p6eval std 31105: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
TimToady std: @$$$$$$$_
p6eval std 31105: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 104m␤»
pugssvn r31109 | patrickas++ | Added missing tests
TimToady of course $() is generally a no-op
cognominal TimToady, also @$_.a means @($_).a, not @( $_.a ) ? 18:55
PerlJam except that it affords item context where their otherwise may not be. $() that is. 18:56
TimToady STD uses @$x in 19 spots
18:56 rgrau joined
PerlJam s/their/there/ 18:56
TimToady cognominal: yes, it means @($_).a
PerlJam that was a weird brain-o
18:56 takadonet left
TimToady @$ is a special form--the @ is not an operator 18:57
rgrau hi #perl6
PerlJam TimToady: so ... @ is the sigil and $ the twigil in that case :) 18:58
rokoteko cognominal: thanks. :) 18:59
TimToady PerlJam: kinda sorta 19:00
though... 19:01
std: @$^a
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
PerlJam sigil, twigil, ... thrigil? spigil? quidril? 19:02
\
jnthn std: @$$ 19:03
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/GfUIjCbKL6 line 1:␤------> @$⏏$␤Confused at /tmp/GfUIjCbKL6 line 1:␤------> @$$⏏<EOL>␤ expecting twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤»
jnthn Shiny.
rakudo: @$$
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 11, near "@$$"␤»
cognominal tries to see where TimToady handle the @$ special form in STD
jnthn LTA
rokoteko would be easier to use the stringifications of greek alphabets. alphail, betail, deltail, gammail, epsilonil ;)
TimToady cognominal: look for desigilname 19:04
19:05 justatheory left
patrickas rakudo: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:05
rokoteko they would easily map to unicode also to avoid englishmism.
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Sorry, multi-dimensional indexes are not yet supported at line 11, near ""␤»
PerlJam that looks like it might be easish to add to rakudo
patrickas alpha: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:06
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT« C G␤ CG␤ T A␤ G C␤ T A␤ G C␤ G C␤ CG␤ TA␤ G C␤ T A␤ A T␤ A T␤ T A␤ GC␤ C G␤ A T␤ A T␤ T A␤ C G␤»
TimToady that's not Perl 6 19:08
std: or^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:09
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of %{$c}; in Perl 6 please use %($c) at /tmp/LRqcjNhJUq line 1:␤------> p {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}⏏s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'or' used at line 1␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
TimToady std: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of %{$c}; in Perl 6 please use %($c) at /tmp/GjhJRGFuzO line 1:␤------> p {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}⏏s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'for' used at line 1␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
patrickas unfrtunately that's what we're teaching the kids these days :-(
TimToady it's wrong several ways, from a p6 point of view
patrickas straight from : perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/1...witcheroo/
I really like the result... I'd hate to remove the example .... maybe we just need to clean it up a bit :-) 19:11
TimToady that particular message is perhaps suppressible, since {} has a different meaning as interpolation
however
if we fix that...
std: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%\{$c}s%\{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:12
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'for' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
TimToady let's add spaces around the ^20
std: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%\{$c}s%\{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}
p6eval std 31109: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
TimToady that's Perl 6 :)
patrickas btw spaces everywhere always trip me off in perl6
ok thanks 19:13
TimToady statement controls require spaces
patrickas *i* know, i just can't always convince my fingers
TimToady and {} without space before it is always a subscript
19:13 jjore joined 19:14 pmurias left
patrickas rakudo: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%\{$c}s%\{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:14
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 2␤ in 'map' at line 1523:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/PcAO7uENGt␤»
patrickas unfortunately rakudo can't handle it yet :(
alpha: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%\{$c}s%\{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient arguments supplied to sprintf␤Insufficient
..arguments s… 19:15
patrickas neither could alpha :(
TimToady yes, well, those backslashes were to fool std, not make the interpolation work right :)
I'll fix that one
rakudo: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map {6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4; printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b} 19:17
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 2␤ in 'map' at line 1523:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/ZyNEgzkxsr␤»
patrickas rakudo is having problems with the map .... regardless of the slashes 19:18
alpha can do it though
TimToady rakudo: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map({6+4*sin($_/2)},$_,$_+4); printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 2␤ in 'map' at line 1523:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 11:/tmp/iguIpmAiND␤»
TimToady rakudo: for ^20 {my ($a,$b)=<AT CG>.pick.comb.pick(*); my ($c,$d)=sort map({6+4*sin($_/2)},($_,$_+4)); printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s\n",$a,$b}
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT« C G␤ AT␤ A T␤ T A␤ C G␤ C G␤ A T␤ GC␤ CG␤ G C␤ T A␤ G C␤ G C␤ G C␤ TA␤ T A␤ G C␤ C G␤ A T␤ T A␤»
patrickas thanks :-) 19:19
I suppose it should not be that hard to fix map ... I'll take a look
TimToady looks like @list should be *@list in some signature 19:20
colomon oh, right, sub map doesn't take a slurpy right now.
That's either very easy to fix, or a big problem.
used to be a big problem, but something may have changed along the way.
PerlJam Wasn't map just waiting on real laziness?
colomon it's line 272 in Any-list.pm
PerlJam: map is already really lazy. 19:21
TimToady I think this relates to the list rethink that pmichaud is doing
patrickas arrg PIR, /me backs away slowly :-) 19:22
TimToady and there's a fundamental problem with using the @ sigil to represent a list
colomon TimToady: certainly might affect it, but I don't think that's really it.
that is to say, grep is already taking a slurpy. 19:23
my memory is just that things break when you try it.
patrickas I'll modify the example in the post in the mean while until map is fixed
colomon but I'm working on it again in the meantime.
(I mean, trying it, just to see what happens.)
19:24 ShaneC joined 19:25 jjore left 19:26 jjore joined, ShaneC left
colomon rakudo: say ~map({$_ * 2}, :values(3, 4, 4, 5)) 19:27
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«6 8 8 10␤»
TimToady we might need to steal the *$foo notation for binding the iterator to $foo; the only alternative is to force *@foo to use shift to iterate its iterator destructively
colomon yeah, that's it.
TimToady as far as I can see
colomon If I change @values to be slurpy, then the above becomes
> say ~map({$_ * 2}, :values(3, 4, 4, 5))
Unexpected named parameter 'values' passed
but 19:28
> say ~map({$_ * 2}, 3, 4, 4, 5)
6 8 8 10
I think at the moment you can get one or the other but not both.
PerlJam Is that the rakudo uncertainty princimple?
s/imp/inp/
grr
TimToady I think the variadic form is much more important than being able to name your list
PerlJam s/imp/ip/
colomon personally prefers the method forms of map and grep....
TimToady: well then, let me see what tests I break... 19:29
*broke
colomon is relieved to have a programming problem simple enough he can handle it after being up most of the night with a feverish toddler. 19:30
19:37 skids left
TimToady if *$head,*@tail can be replaced by *[$head,*$tail], we could steal *$ for *$iterator and **$sliceiterator 19:42
PerlJam I think I like it. 19:43
(FWIW)
TimToady then it's clear that 'for |$iterator {...}' is destructive, unlike @iterator 19:44
what's clear is that @ means inconsistent things in the current design 19:46
19:49 plainhao left
TimToady the other way out is to have a way that says to interpolate an array destructively 19:49
for @array {...} just reads, but...
for @array.mumble {...} iterates @array destructively 19:50
this could work because laziness is orthogonal to arrays
that is, both arrays and iterators have a reified part and an imaginary part, it's just api policy that differs 19:51
"mumble" could be something like "shiftall", or it might be common enough to deserve its own operator 19:53
19:53 xinming left
pugssvn r31110 | patrickas++ | Added test for DNA one liner at the end of the post 19:53
TimToady for @array.munch :) 19:54
19:54 xinming joined 19:57 pmurias joined
colomon should map { .WHAT } , {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2}).join(' ') be 'Pair() Pair()' ? 20:01
TimToady I don't think so 20:02
[] and {} don't flatten
colomon that's failing now... apparently it used to convert {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2} to a list, now that it's slurpy it takes it as a single argument.
I see the test is marked "#hash in list context", which certainly seems a bad sign...
TimToady [] and {} are like $ scalars in a list
20:03 Psyche^ joined
TimToady %hash would flatten, but $hash wouldn't 20:03
it's not the type
%$hash would flatten
%({}) would flatten
|{} would flatten
20:04 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
pugssvn r31111 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Fudge tests to work with slurpy map. 20:05
colomon TimToady: okays, map is now slurpy. 20:07
20:07 justatheory joined, justatheory left 20:08 justatheory joined
dalek kudo: 7c83e65 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
Switch sub version of map to take slurpy values.
 20:08
TimToady wonders if @array[@keys]:delete can lazily delete/return values 20:10
that's .munch, more or less 20:11
20:11 hercynium left 20:12 kfo_ joined
patrickas colomon that's what happens when you give noobs svn access 20:12
colomon patrickas: what is?
patrickas Broken tests 20:13
ps: I am the noob to blame in that case
colomon patrickas: believe me, there have been (and probably are) plenty of broken tests written by non-noobs.
pmichaud back from lunch and shopping 20:14
colomon and it was pretty subtle, and it did work before, after all.
patrickas colomon it didn't work before :-( I thought it should work like that (after asking around) and made it work like that and added a test for it to work like that ... but apparently I was wrong 20:15
20:15 kfo left, kfo_ is now known as kfo
colomon TimToady: I think I like the .munch idea better. 20:15
cognominal rakudo: %() 20:16
p6eval rakudo 738fad: ( no output )
TimToady well, if we had a delete macro, it'd be 'delete @array' vs 'delete @array[@keys]' 20:17
where 'delete @array' presumably means 'delete @array[*]'
or 'munch @array', which gives the idea that it returns the munched values
so we'd have 'for munch @array {...}' 20:18
colomon TimToady: wait, I think there's a big problem with .munch as an idea.
Or at least...
20:18 ashleydev joined
TimToady well, same problem as .delete, if there are keys that have to be unreferenced 20:18
that's why it has to be a macro or a modifier on the subscript
patrickas So would the correct test be 20:19
rakudo: use Test; my $h= {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2}; is( (map { .WHAT } , $h).join(' ') , 'Pair() Pair()' );
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
TimToady no
colomon patrickas: no
TimToady $h doesn't flatten either
pmichaud what are we trying to test?
patrickas pmichaud: the way I am seing it .... my ignorance and your patience :-) 20:20
colomon whether a hash becomes an array of pairs in certain circumstances.
pmichaud a flattening hash does, yes.
a non-flattening hash wouldn't. 20:21
20:21 clintongormley left
pmichaud my %h = { a=>1, b=>2 }; # %h flattens 20:21
my $h = { a=>1, b=>2 }; # $h doesn't flatten
TimToady but has nothing to do with the type of the hash itself 20:22
pmichaud correct.
patrickas pmichaud: apparently that was just said in the channel 10 minutes ago but I was too thick to grasp it :-)
TimToady my %h := $h; %h now flattens
pmichaud both %h and $h above are of type "Hash"
TimToady actually, both of those are wrong 20:23
they want :=
pmichaud oh, correct.
TimToady well, the first one is wrong
pmichaud well, the second doesn't.
:)
TimToady beatcha :P
pmichaud my mind is a little tapioca'd at the moment.
TimToady I know the pudding, er, feeling 20:24
colomon
.oO(oooo, tapioca)
TimToady pmichaud: been thinking about the *@iter quandry above
pmichaud TimToady: I saw that. 20:25
lately I've been wondering if we really want a Feed type.
colomon My mind is like tapioca where someone has gone through and sucked out all the little fish eyes.
pugssvn r31112 | pmurias++ | [smop] fix some warnings
patrickas ok so since the hash should not flatten, what should the result be ?
of a no nflattening hash passed to map ?
TimToady well, speaking of tapioca, I need to be pudding some lunch into my bloodstream, and it's already after 13:26 here... 20:26
colomon patrickas: you pass the entire hash to one iteration of the map.
TimToady decommute &
pmichaud TimToady: in particular, I'm wondering about the objects being passed between
map { $_**2 } <== sort <== grep { $_ % 2 } <== @nums;
20:27 justatheory left
patrickas ok... I'll try to fix the tests then 20:27
colomon pmichaud: Feed would essentially wrap an Iterator
?
pmichaud colomon: right, but would be different List in that respect
i.e., a Feed doesn't need memory
unless it's bound/mapped/attached to something that wants memory
colomon pmichaud: right. 20:28
pmichaud *different from List
colomon and you have to explicitly request a Feed, yes? 20:29
pmichaud well, I'd think no.
colomon (whether by declaring a variable to be a Feed or using <==)
pmichaud It may depend (more)
for example, .map() on a Feed might behave slightly differently than .map on an Array.
or one might delegate to the other. 20:30
but in general, it seems that .map wants to return a Feed and not a List/Seq/Array
colomon gather also returns a Feed?
pmichaud colomon: yes
pugssvn r31113 | patrickas++ | trimmed the lines so the test passes regardless of line ending character
pmichaud i.e., Feed is the explicit type for "I can produce a sequence of elements in a list context, but I don't bother keeping any of the values of the sequence around." 20:31
it's still a fuzzy notion at the moment, but it seems to me that we have at least List, Iterator, Feed, and Array
colomon that feels very right to me. 20:32
but I get all tangled up in the details.
pmichaud well, same here :)
I had to abandon work a bit earlier in the week, so I'm back on it now.
Also, it's hard to work on this when answering questions on irc :) 20:33
colomon seems like the tricky bit is we want Feed to automatically convert to an Array when needed, and vice versa? (tricky as in, I don't know how to make dispatch do that without extra magic)
pmichaud but the existence of <== and ==> and the like somehow tells me that we need a "feed type"
20:34 Guest86191 left
pmichaud I'm not sure about "automatically convert to an Array" -- seems like it might be "be wrapped by an Array" 20:34
colomon yes.
pmichaud e.g., when it's bound.
colomon I mean, if I have sub fred(@a), I want to be able to pass a Feed to it. 20:35
binding, yes.
pmichaud sure
colomon and if I have sub fred(Feed $a), I want to be able to pass an array to it.
pmichaud and binding a @-sigil to a feed actually creates an intermediate Array
colomon pmichaud: yes on the @-sigil.
pmichaud hmmm
I'm not sure if Array ~~ Feed, though.
colomon I'm pretty sure Array !~~ Feed. 20:36
that's why it seems like the binding needs magic.
pmichaud in which case I don't think we need to pass an array to fred(Feed $a)...
PerlJam Feed ~~ Positional ?
pmichaud PerlJam: haven't decided that one yet.
colomon: I don't see the place where we need for sub fred(Feed $a) { ... } to be able to accept an Array. 20:37
colomon pmichaud: just trying to be properly dwimmy
pmichaud it should not be the case that just anything passes everywhere. 20:38
if you want to accept arrays, you should probably be using @a anyway
and not trying to accept a feed-as-scalar.
colomon I guess you could always have an additional sub fred(@a) { fred(@a.Feed) }
disagree strongly with that last.
for some subs, Feed will be a natural.
pmichaud I don't think you even need an additional sub.
colomon: example? 20:39
patrickas just so I don't mess things up again, I'll replace the currently broken hash test with gist.github.com/425910 did I finally get things right ? 20:40
pmichaud patrickas: my %flattens= {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2}; # wrong 20:41
patrickas: maybe you want parens there.
colomon pmichaud: sorry, brain too gone to quickly think of an explicit example, but think of any time you want to refactor a long string of maps and greps out to a single function. You'd normally want it to take a Feed, but that doesn't mean you'd never want to pass an @array to it. 20:42
pmichaud colomon: in that case, you have it take an @array, and you shift elements from the @array 20:43
patrickas rakudo: my %h1= {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2};my %h2= ("a"=> 1 , "b"=>2); %h1.perl.say; %h2.perl.say;
20:43 justatheory joined
p6eval rakudo 738fad: OUTPUT«{"a" => 1, "b" => 2}␤{"a" => 1, "b" => 2}␤» 20:43
pmichaud and the feed automatically promots to an array
*promotes
cognominal %() crashes is the golfed version of a program that crashes rakudo, whatever the way it is run (p6 shell, with -e, as a program). According to the trace it triggers a infinit recursion in the GC
pmichaud but trying to get an array to automatically promote to a feed is asking for trouble
cognominal should i file a bug?
pmichaud or, instead of trying to get sub foo(Feed $a) to work, what you really want is sub foo($a as Feed) 20:44
i.e., so that it coerces $a into a Feed, instead of trying to make binding automatically promote it
colomon pmichaud: $a as Feed, yes.
pmichaud whenever we try to make our type constraints perform coercions we're likely to run into problems.
20:45 Guest86191 joined
colomon pmichaud: I don't really have any major problem with the idea of forcing you to do a one-line multi sub to get the same behavior as $a as Feed 20:45
pmichaud since $a as Feed is the natural way of expressing "convert the argument to a Feed", I think we should use it. 20:46
colomon Is it also a valid p6 way? I've seen it tossed about, but not known if it is real or just a notion.
patrickas in rakudo how can I detect that "my %h1= {"a"=> 1 , "b"=>2};" is different than "my %h2= ("a"=> 1 , "b"=>2);" ? 20:47
pmichaud the first will end up being a (runtime) error. 20:48
because you're tying to create a hash from a list of one scalar.
colomon pmichaud: (I'm 1000% behind $a as Feed if we can make that work, for what that's worth.)
patrickas oh ok thanks... so current rakudo is as much to blame as I am :-) 20:50
pmichaud well, even if "as Feed" doesn't work, we can always do
sub foo($a) { $a = $a.Feed; ... }
which explicitly builds a Feed for $a, regardless of $a's type. If $a is already a Feed, then it's a no-op. 20:51
pugssvn r31114 | patrickas++ | Corrected broken test 20:53
colomon rakudo: sub foo($a) { say $a.WHAT }; my @a = 1..10; say foo(@a)
p6eval rakudo 7c83e6: OUTPUT«Array()␤1␤»
colomon pmichaud: word.
TimToady I don't understand how Feed is different from a List 20:54
colomon pmichaud: $a as Feed is more elegant, but $a = $a.Feed seems like a perfectly sensible way of doing it.
pmichaud TimToady: they may in fact be the same.
TimToady: I'm still teasing out the commonalities. 20:55
But if Feed is List, that's assuming that List means "I don't remember values"
(which is fine)
colomon but calling it Feed takes a step back from all the confusing current half-notions.
pmichaud right
at the moment I'm calling it a Feed just to avoid confusion with past terms
also, S06 talks a lot about "feeds", so it seems reasonable to have a Feed type
TimToady maybe 20:56
pmichaud (which we may end up calling 'List', but 'Feed' is more obvious for discussion)
colomon I think Feed is a good term, too, because it isn't loaded with all sorts of other connotations. (at least to my ear)
PerlJam and then we'll get a Feed-lot and some cattle and ...
pmichaud I'm not entirely comfortable with the name Feed either.
I also considered Pipe, Pipeline, etc.
TimToady up till now, "feed" has mode more promises about threadability than "list" has, I suspect
pmichaud but at the moment (for me at least) it's just useful to separate away from the overloaded term "list" 20:57
PerlJam Ceci n'est pas une pipe
pmichaud TimToady: I did have a question about the current synopsis... what's the fundamental difference between the "flat" and "list" listops? 20:58
s/listops/contextualizers
(i.e., what difference is the synopsis aiming at?) 20:59
TimToady .list only undoes the non-interpolation of $, [], and {}, I suspect
20:59 Su-Shee left
pmichaud okay 20:59
TimToady so prefix:<|> is basically .list, I think
except not quite
since | also removes a Parcel wrapping on the arguments 21:00
pmichaud it's not hugely important what the exact difference is... just wanted to get a sense of what the underlying intent was
TimToady whereas .list, if it's a normal method, would have a Parcel around its values
pmichaud so essentially, 'list' removes scalar-ness but doesn't deal with interior parcles
*Parcels
TimToady yes
pmichaud whereas 'flat' also flattens the interior Parcels 21:01
TimToady whereas .flat switches to an flattening iterator
pmichaud okay
TimToady that squashes interior parcels
pmichaud I'm not sure I see where that distinction is needed yet, but I'll know it when I see it.
21:01 Guest43663 joined
patrickas does this mean the method 'list' in 'Hash' gets called only when the Hash needs to flatten ? 21:02
TimToady in a list context, .list merely undoes the non-interpolation (I almost said non-flattening)
there may not be a .list method, but there will be a .flat method, I think
patrickas there is a .list method because I added it and I am checking to know if I should remove it :-) 21:03
pmichaud patrickas' question is part of the reason why I'm departing from List for a bit
it's much easier to say "what do I use to get a feed of elements from a Hash"?
21:04 skids joined
pmichaud if we later say that Feed is in fact List, then it works out 21:04
TimToady but if the hash returns $feed, that probably stays a single item if %hash.feed is in list context
pmichaud well, for a single item I really want an Iterator 21:05
as opposed to a Feed
and that would be %hash.iterator
in some sense, .iterator is the scalar form of a feed. or a feed is something that knows how to flatten an iterator
(but do so w/o memory of past elements) 21:06
PerlJam flatten == iterate?
pmichaud I suppose we could just have flattening and non-flattening iterators.
TimToady not sure that's right
pmichaud .iterator gives back a non-flattening iterator, while .list or .feed or .flat or whatever gives back a flattening iterator
I agree that doesn't seem right either, which is why I'm choosing to multiply types for now until I figure out what the use cases are, then look for combining them where it makes sense 21:07
PerlJam: I'm pretty sure that Feed ~~ Positional, as people will expect .map(...).[5] to work
TimToady I don't think so 21:08
pmichaud PerlJam: but I keep going back-and-forth on that.
TimToady I think Any.[] will create a positional for Positional.[] 21:09
this is how Any.[0] is Any for non-iterables
pmichaud sure, but I'm pretty sure the result of .map() is generally iterable.
TimToady iterable !=== positional 21:10
21:10 xabbu42 joined
pmichaud can we do .grep().elems ? 21:10
TimToady hmm, we've been using iterable for something that can *produce* an iterotor, not something that is an iterator
21:10 xabbu42 left, xabbu42 joined
pmichaud some iterators are also iterable. 21:10
TimToady but if so, they probably clone the iterator 21:11
pmichaud sure
but they're iterable :)
TimToady I don't see why .elems wouldn't do similarly, though Any.elems can short-circuit when we know there's only one thing
pmichaud but I think that whatever .map() returns can't be simply defaulting to Any.elems 21:12
colomon Should these be Any or Cool?
pmichaud colomon: Any.
the list methods seem to operate outside of the Cool framework.
TimToady only scalars are Cool :)
colomon Ah, that explains Any-list.pm. 21:13
:)
TimToady only scalar *values* are Cool; and iterators are values 21:14
*aren't
gotta get that n't key fixed...
colomon that's "iterators aren't values", I hope? :) 21:15
pmichaud TimToady: so, is Any ~~ Positional? (I think no.) 21:16
is it that it simply understands postcircumfix:<[ ]> without actually being Positional?
*that Any
TimToady we can probably work it that way 21:17
pmichaud okay. Otherwise, @x can potentially bind to any scalar :-)
TimToady just because a role requires a method doesn't mean it can't be duck-typed outside the role
pmichaud well, to any Any. :)
agreed (duck-typed); just wanted to make sure I wasn't making an incorrect assumption 21:18
well, I'm now at a mental point where I think a walk around the block and some note-jotting will be most helpful 21:19
so, afk
TimToady nap &
21:20 patrickas left
sjohnson nap at work & 21:21
just kidding.. i dont want to get fired
PerlJam feels like taking a nap 21:23
sorear TimToady: How do I write an "around" in perl 6? 21:29
21:30 gbacon left
sorear sjohnson: move to spain, I hear they're much more enlightened there 21:30
[Coke] is thankful again for his flexible job. =) 21:31
PerlJam sorear: See S06:2569 (the section on Wrapping) 21:32
jnthn sorear: I think they have a like ~ 20% unemployment rate at the moment. You've a 1/5 chance of being able to spend all day napping there...
sorear PerlJam: that has absolutely nothing to do with "around"
jnthn sorear: What exactly are you wanting to do? 21:33
jnthn doesn't know what "around" is
21:33 arthur-_ joined
jnthn It sounds like something you'd achieve with callsame etc though 21:33
sorear jnthn: 'around' et al in Moose are how you use superclass functions 21:34
21:34 arthur-_ left
jnthn sorear: ah, then callsame and friends 21:34
Or callwith
sorear class Foo { method bar { ... }; }; class Quux is Foo { around bar { ... } }
jnthn in Perl 6
s/around/method/
And then "callsame" where you want to call up to bar
er, up to Foo's bar 21:35
Or callwith to change the args
sorear Does that work in roles?
jnthn Yes
It iterates over the candidate list
Well, that said, by the time you get to dispatch time the role methods don't really play into the equation though.
Since composition is flattening.
sorear excellent 21:36
looks like one of my first perl 6 projects will be a macro library implementing before and after and augment and inner, though
jnthn :-/
jnthn is a bit scared that macros are so longed after
21:37 Guest86191 left
sorear hey, it'll be a great testbed for the metamodel 21:37
jnthn True :-)
21:37 arthur-_ joined, arthur-_ left
jnthn I didn't mean that specific example, just that I fear macros will be overused when we first get 'em. 21:37
PerlJam sorear: Perl 6's .wrap looks like it's exactly how you would do Moose's around to me.
sorear comes from Moose-land, where for hopefully obvious reasons the metamodel is a great deal more mature than even the one specced in S12
jnthn It's a hunch. 21:38
sorear PerlJam: perl 6 .wrap modifies a method in place
PerlJam: moose around creates a new, wrapped version of a superclass method and installs it in a subclass method table
around foo => sub { my ($orig, @args) = @_; ...; $orig->(@args); ... }; == sub foo { my ($self, @args) = @_; ...; $self->SUPER::foo(@args); ... } but role-aware 21:40
there's also before and after, which only insert code in one space and return the same thing as the original code 21:41
"return the same thing" being fairly fiddly in Perl 5, whatwith downwards context propagation and all
so it's quite useful to have it in the libraries
pmichaud
.oO( sometimes walks are so helpful to design :-)
 21:42
*to the design process
sorear agreed
except I never got the "block" part down
people look at me funny when I spent an hour walking in circles mumbling to myself, but it really does help 21:43
21:45 Guest43663 left 21:55 hercynium joined 22:01 ispeak_ joined
colomon walks are terrific. hoping to soon again have a dog that needs to be walked. 22:01
pmichaud colomon: you're welcome to come walk mine. She's always begging for walks.
We can't even say the word "walk" anymore, we always have to spell it out as w-a-l-k
she also knows "go", because it often precedes the word "walk" :-) 22:02
22:03 Guest48560 left
colomon pmichaud: if you lived in reasonable driving distance, I'd take you up on that. 22:03
pmichaud gee, I never have trouble with the driving distance to my house. :-)
22:20 ispeak_ left 22:35 lest_away is now known as lestrrat 22:41 ash___ joined
pugssvn r31115 | lwall++ | [STD] don't complain on "%{$count}s" in printf format as if it's a P5ism 22:52
22:57 pmurias left
lue ohai 23:00
23:02 orafu left, orafu joined 23:08 Woody2143 left 23:14 plainhao joined 23:16 Woody2143 joined
lue *chirp* 23:17
23:31 Woody2143 left
pugssvn r31116 | wayland++ | Made some changes based on S05 -- they may even be right :). 23:33
23:35 azert0x left 23:36 Woody2143 joined
sorear TimToady: Is Cursor and $¢ a specified thing in Perl 6.n, or is it strictly an implementation detail? 23:36
23:38 justatheory left
TimToady spec, grep for $¢ in S05 23:38
sorear The first mention of Cursor in S05 is before the definition of Cursor 23:39
ah, found it 23:40
hmm 23:41
23:42 cdarroch left
sorear S05 says that every regex returns a Cursor and <&foo> is "sugar for something like" { $¢ = foo($¢); } 23:43
was this written before the current conception of regexes as returning lists?
TimToady no, it's just sloppy writing and thinking in ratchet terms 23:44
every regex returns a list of Cursors, potentially
and I don't know how we'd write that inside a block offhand 23:45
except { return () } fails the current rule 23:48
and { return $¢.foo() } would return the list that foo returns 23:49
perhaps we need a block in list context that lazymaps or .[0]'s as appropriate 23:50
sorear why would a block in a regex catch control exceptions? 23:58

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!