»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
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masak jnthn: "abuse of a proto"/"someone will probably find a way to [abuse it more]". you must be new here. :P 00:01
masak cackles evilly
colomon "This week's challenge is to figure out how to abuse proto...." 00:02
masak jnthn++ # nice blug post 00:03
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dalek odel: e7e4edb | diakopter++ | / (3 files):
[dotnet] implement push, pop, unshift, shift in NQPArray
 00:04
colomon jnthn++ # what masak said, plus sounds like good hacking!
jnthn 'twas a fun weekend :-) 00:05
lue jnthn++ # everything said above + reminding me to check on the P6 community more often 00:07
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sorear woah, diakopter is hacking 6model now? 00:14
masak diakopter++ 00:16
jnthn I only wrote the "stuff to hack on" file yesterday and diakopter++ has already demolished over half the tasks. :-) 00:24
masak what a delightful destructive activity! 00:26
jnthn :-)
jnthn goes to get some rest - $dayjob tomorrow 00:28
night o/
sorear I should make one of those!
masak night, jnthn. 00:30
lichtkind good night everyone 00:35
perigrin jnthn: that just suggests you need to write a larger TODO list next time 00:38
or pick harder things
masak lol, I bloggethed: strangelyconsistent.org/blog/yet-an...f-november 00:42
lue masak++ # I feel like I haven't done Actual Real Coding™ as well 00:46
masak adds the '™' to the post 00:47
lue Web.pm is the thingy that (theoretically at least) would let me evilly code my site in P6 instead of, say, PHP, right? 00:49
masak right.
there's even been talk about making a Rakudo distribution optimized for that. 00:50
I think that would be a very nice goal.
flussence from what I understand, it'd be really easy to make a setting library to make rakudo php-like. 00:52
(auto http headers and stuff like that, not the functions :)
lue I tried building meself a site (no place online yet though), and I was wearing my P6-colored glasses while coding javascript, and couldn't bear it :D 00:53
diakopter perigrin: yes, harder things :)
(or just lots more things)
well-expressed/defined (aka easy) things are good too. 00:54
masak lue: have you seen the "Good Parts" talk by Doug Crockford? www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVTIJBZook
perigrin diakopter++ 00:56
lue No, and I can't.
[ A ~10 year old laptop does not a video player make :/ ] 00:57
masak oh. sorry. :/
anyway, it's a good talk.
lue It's fine. I tried watching Patent Absurdity once by downloading it first. 00:59
It was the day I learned this computer cannot play any sort of 'video' or other visual wonder.
(I just tried compiling LibreOffice. Letting it run 24/7, it took days (as in several) and still didn't finish. *sob*) 01:00
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masak possibly a sign that it's time to upgrade? 01:01
lue I got this laptop for free though. :) 01:03
Compared to LibreOffice, Rakudo takes no time (I heard LibreOffice takes 2 hours on a quad-core!) 01:04
flussence I can sympathise with that, chromium is a nightmare to compile too :) 01:06
lue Then Chromium would be a Steve Moffat story for me ;) 01:07
flussence on my quad-core desktop, it takes longer than rakudo on my netbook...
I think that's due to it bundling half an OS worth of duplicate libs, though. Hopefully that'll be gone by version 10ish 01:10
colomon the last november for masak?!?!!! 01:12
masak well, I'll still exist afterwards :) 01:13
I hope.
lue as long as you don't have a legally binding contract with any deity that tied you to those novembers, you'll be fine. 01:14
colomon and you're making a secret announcement in december, eh?
masak yep.
sorear lue: do you also have free electricity/
colomon (well, the announcement isn't secret)
masak colomon: clue. you'll like it.
colomon \o/ 01:15
sorear lue: if not, a reasonable upgrade will pay for itself
power conservation tech improved a *lot* from 2000-2007, and 3 year old computers are still pretty cheap
lue My computer could be wasting energy and I don't even know it!? WOW! [not sarcastic there] 01:18
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flussence I've actually checked mine a few times... 01:21
barebones P3 server - ~70W, P4 desktop - 200W, PhenomII X4 - 120W
colomon masak: I'm having a hard time imagining what you'd know for certain now and yet want to keep a secret.
masak colomon: good. :) 01:22
colomon but I like good surprises!
sorear the P4 is one of the worst processors in history as far as power consumption 01:27
they had to switch to the Core line cause P5 prototypes kept melting
masak that processor was hot! 01:28
lue the PPC G5 suffered like that, why it's not in any Apple laptops (unless I missed something and P5=G5) 01:33
sorear no, the P4 was an Intel chip, the G5 came from IBM 01:39
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diakopter afraid; I did stuff not in LHF.txt or ROADMAP 01:57
dalek odel: ad6fd43 | diakopter++ | / (3 files):
[dotnet] finish implementing pasttype while; implement until, repeat_while, repeat_until; add 14-while.t (all pass); add 05-comments.t b/c it passes.
 01:58
diakopter actually I guess those are in ROADMAP under "Other types of loop" 01:59
sorear needs to make up a LHF and a ROADMAP 02:00
and finish up the docs
diakopter :)
sorear: jnthn's overall compilation approach is _incredibly_ similar to [what I thought I was inventing, novelly, in] Perlesque's 02:02
diakopter starts to guess it's kindof a common pattern 02:03
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sorear I'm going to need to implement real continuations at some point, hmm 02:16
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diakopter sorear: :P 02:26
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dnl moinsen 03:05
sorear hi 03:06
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diakopter sigh. stupid merge branch master, again. 03:15
[CursorBase] special thanks to NYTProf; apply some inlining and CSE for a 10-15% speedup when parsing grammar-heavy input. github.com/perl6/std/commit/c3fb774...e1a683181a 03:16
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Chat0660 hi room 06:34
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sorear hello 06:35
Chat0660 whatsup
sorear How long of a timespan do you care about? 06:36
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Chat0660 what do u mean 06:37
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jnthn o/ #perl6 08:42
moritz_ \o 08:45
uniejo |o| 08:46
LoRe /o\ 08:47
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tadzik o/ 10:41
jnthn o/ tadzik
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masak oh hai, #perl6! 11:05
moritz_ looks forward to masak's next November blog post 11:08
masak aka "masak's first November blog post"... :)
tadzik oh hai masak
so, is pls going to use Module::Tools maybe? 11:09
masak possibly. 11:10
will investigate. 11:11
but now, lunch &
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jnthn diakopter: Just read over ad6fd437 - it looks good. :-) Yes, that was what the relevant item in the ROADMAP meant. 12:04
jnthn digs back into $dayjob after nice noms
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masak they what? twitter.com/pjf/status/29265124349 12:45
jnthn hehe 12:46
moritz_ giggles
masak now it feels like I'm missing out... :) 12:47
Perl 7.9. fancy that.
jnthn I want to think it's a typo for 5.9, apart from that woulda been a development version... 12:48
masak yeah. it's odd.
jnthn Literally *and* figuratively. ;-) 12:49
takadonet morning
sjn 5.7.9? :)
Perl6, version 7.9
Perl5*
moritz_ sjn: would be weird, since that's an (old) development version 12:51
sjn yep
doesn't seem like a typo either 12:52
sbp they're using a fractional base, not decimal
sjn 7 and 5 aren't really next to eachother on the keyboard
perhaps they mean the "september 2007" release? :-P 12:53
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moritz_ rakudo: sub factors($n) { ($n X/ 1..$n).grep: { .Int == $_ } }; say factors(15).join(', ') 13:00
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«15, 5, 3, 1␤»
masak rakudo: sub factors($n) { grep { $_ %% $n } 1..$n }; say factors(15).fmt(", ") 13:09
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
masak rakudo: sub factors($n) { grep { $_ %% $n }, 1..$n }; say factors(15).fmt(", ")
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«, ␤»
masak huh. 13:10
oh!
rakudo: sub factors($n) { grep { $_ %% $n }, 1..$n }; say factors(15).fmt
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«15␤»
masak rakudo: sub factors($n) { grep { $n %% $_ }, 1..$n }; say factors(15).fmt
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«1 3 5 15␤»
PerlJam heh
masak rakudo: sub factors($n) { grep { $_ R%% $n }, 1..$n }; say factors(15).fmt # :) 13:11
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«1 3 5 15␤»
moritz_ tries to find nice non-junction versions of Damian's examples 13:13
masak moritz_: I had missed you in that thread. kudos for entering it.
jnthn I really want to read that thread and get to grips with it. 13:14
But multi-dispatch has been nomming all my brain tuits.
:-)
masak I find nowadays that I'm not too invested in junctions. they may be a central part of Perl 6, but they're not a central part of my Perl 6 coding. 13:16
they're occasionally nice, that's all.
sbp moritz_++ # entering the thread
jnthn I find them like hyper-operators. I won't use them in every bit of code I write, but when they're useful they're really useful.
PerlJam so ... you guys use || more than | in regex? :) 13:17
moritz_ jnthn, masak: I fully agree
masak PerlJam: I tend to use ||, because (I'm not aware that) | works as spec'd yet. 13:18
urgh. parens fail.
| doesn't work as spec'd in regexes. at least I'm not aware that they do.
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masak hence, I tend to use ||, for future compatibility. 13:18
I tend to avoid writing bitrottable code when I can. :) 13:19
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jnthn The link with | in regexes is also more fluffy than deep implementation level too, I suspect. 13:22
masak moritz_++ # making a lot of sense in the thread
but urgh, sigil-less constants. do not want. :)
Util Having created a class ReallyLongClassName, I want to make a shorter typename R, so that I can say 13:23
multi sub infix:<+> ( R $a, R $b ) {...}
instead of
masak those sigils are there for a reason! why would I, after choosing a sigil-full language as Perl, choose to deprive the reader of the information that UNACCEPTABLE is an array?
Util multi sub infix:<+> ( ReallyLongClassName $a, ReallyLongClassName $b ) {...}
What is the Perl 6 syntax for such an alias, and does Rakudo support it yet?
masak Util: constant R := ReallyLongClassName
moritz_ Util: in a perfect world, my ::R := ReallLongClassName
masak Util: or subtype R of ReallyLongClassName, but that's assymetric in that ReallyLongClassName !~~ R, I think. 13:24
moritz_ masak: that will result in parse errors when you try to use the constant in place of a type name
masak moritz_: oh?
rakudo: class A {}; subtype B of A; say A ~~ B; say B ~~ A
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &of␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/gMeharChHr␤»
Util Single colons instead of double colons on the := ?
masak rakudo: class A {}; subset B of A; say A ~~ B; say B ~~ A
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤1␤»
masak interesting answer :) 13:25
moritz_ std: constant R = Int; sub f(R $x) { }
masak submits rakudobug
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/iCojxN1Gyb line 1:␤------> constant R = Int; sub f(R ⏏$x) { }␤ok 00:01 123m␤»
moritz_ std: constant R = Int; sub f(R $x) { $x }
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
moritz_ wonders why that works
masak Util: double colons are probably better.
jnthn rakudo: ::I = Int; my I $x; say $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤In "my" declaration, typename I must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at line 22, near " $x; say $"␤»
jnthn rakudo: my ::I = Int; my I $x; say $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 22, near "::I = Int;"␤»
masak moritz_: why wouldn't it work?
jnthn :/
masak moritz_: oh, I see now. 13:26
moritz_ masak: because only type names are allowed before parameters
masak right, and the parser doesn't know that the constant represents a type name.
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moritz_ www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=868728 13:28
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moritz_ thinks he now knows how to describe meta object protocols to the curious perl programmer 13:29
it just takes a lot of work to write down
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masak the meta object protocol is just an API to OO stuff. 13:30
an OO API to OO stuff, even.
moritz_ right
jnthn moritz_: Dunno if any of my slides or blog posts make good things to link to.
moritz_ jnthn: they do, but I'm thinking of a somewhat different approach 13:31
outline:
jnthn I have explained this stuff, though it's often in the context of other things.
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masak likes jnthn's "innocent questions" approach :) 13:31
moritz_ let's start with a simple class, where each instance stores a callback
if it makes this callback invocable through a method call, it's a very simple MOP 13:32
if all instances share the same callbacks, it acts like a class implementation
masak sounds like the "let's build it ourselves" approach. 13:33
moritz_ indeed
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masak I like that, too. 13:33
moritz_ starting from something very common (callbacks)
masak aye.
Util Thanks, all. Since none of these are supported in Rakudo yet, I will workaround, and make a note to revisit after one of those solutions is fully implemented. 13:34
jnthn Yes, showing how to build a simple one up is nice. 13:35
masak Util: huh? the subset thing seemed to work.
jnthn Worth noting that the core primitive in 6model is actually really, really simple too.
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jnthn Though its factoring is tied up in representation poly, which is less fun if you're still trying to get your head around meta-models. 13:35
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jnthn But all it manages to do is dispatch methods and hold a list of attributes. 13:36
Util masak: creating the subset works, but using the subset in a param-list declaration is failing. Hmm. Let me look closer.
masak rakudo: class A {}; subset R of A; sub foo(R $x) { say $x }; foo(A.new) 13:37
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«A()<0x5db87f0>␤»
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masak seems to work here. 13:37
of course, among the different approaches, this is the Wrong one, conceptually. 13:38
but it works.
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jnthn e.g. you could accidentally a candidate narrower like this and affect multi-dispatch. 13:40
Since R is narrower than A here. 13:41
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moritz_ rakudo: my ::A 13:42
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at line 22, near "::A"␤»
jnthn std: my ::A;
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'A' (see line 1) at /tmp/2_oKyMhSZP line 1:␤------> my ::A⏏;␤Multiple prefix constraints not yet supported at /tmp/2_oKyMhSZP line 1:␤------> my ::A⏏;␤Malformed my at
../tmp/2_oKyMhSZ…
moritz_ that's a LTA error
jnthn std: my ::AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA; 13:43
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA' (see line 1) at /tmp/KnwUjRMmkd line 1:␤------> my ::AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA⏏;␤Multiple prefix constraints not yet supported at /tmp/KnwUjRMmkd line 1:␤------> my
..::AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA…
perigrin masak: I've been telling people that MOPs are Object Models of how to build Object Models.
masak submits rakudobug
perigrin: yes, exactly. they're an OOD for OO.
perigrin yep
jnthn I tend to see a meta-object as just an object that describes how another object behaves and/or provides introspection for it. 13:44
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moritz_ perigrin: do people actually understand that, if they haven't worked with a MOP before? 13:44
perigrin moritz_: sometimes 13:45
it depends on their exposure to OO
a lot of people write very procedural code in OO
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masak sometimes that's what you want. 13:47
Util Aha! Subset *does* work. I was using Q instead of R, which fails (I think) because single caps are reserved for meta-ops.
Using Qu works: subset Qu of Quaternion;
masak Util: quoting. 13:48
Util: Q fails because it's used for quoting.
Util Oh , of course; R is a meta-op anyway.
masak it's a known, and quite annoying, bug.
Util Thanks!
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moritz_ std: subset Q of Int; my Q $x; 13:50
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
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tadzik hello 14:48
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masak tadzik: hi! 14:51
"perl 1.0 patch 8: perl needed an eval operator and a symbolic debugger" -- wow. github.com/mirrors/perl/commit/a559...01be0bac10
Perl was small at that time.
tadzik oh wow
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jnthn ...is that debugger really a source filter that inserts debug hooks? :-) 14:53
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jnthn "What has been seen..." :-) 14:54
tadzik :)
seen smash 14:55
aloha smash was last seen in #perl6 2 days 23 hours ago saying "pmichaud: mornin'".
tadzik I'm curious about gil.di.uminho.pt/users/smash/rakudo-bench.html
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masak so far Perl 1 and Perl 6 are tied in moritz_++' poll. www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=868728 15:24
I wonder if people know that they're voting for Perl 1, and not for (say) vanilla Perl 5.
either that, or they're simply punie humans. :P 15:25
tadzik voted and changed the situation :) 15:28
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masak (Buddha Buck)++ # introducing *real* quantum theory on p6l, not the pop-culture trivialized versions of which junctions are but one example 15:38
colomon pmichaud++ # listening to his interview with merlyn now... 15:39
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masak but, unfortunately, due to junctions only being a distant relative to real quantum superpositions, I doubt that "asking for the eigenstates of a quantum superposition is asking the wrong object for the property" translates to anything sensible in Perl 6. 15:40
of course, that's just one more argument for .eigenstates being the wrong name for the method.
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pmichaud hello, all 15:44
masak hi pmichaud o/
tadzik hello, pmichaud
masak pmichaud++ # interview
tadzik indeed
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pmichaud I'm stuck offline most of the day -- we're getting new broadband service at the house today 15:44
colomon pmichaud: listening to you talk right now...
masak today is Yapsi release day, by the way. 15:45
pmichaud yapsi++
colomon masak: \o/
jnthn o/ pmichaud
tadzik (Official Perl 6)++
jnthn pmichaud: Will you make #phasers tomorrow?
pmichaud colomon: how does the talk sound? I haven't heard it yet
colomon sounds great
pmichaud jnthn: definitely, unless something unexpected comes up
jnthn pmichaud: OK. I'll haz a question or two. :-) 15:46
masak question is, should I spend time adding some feature to Yapsi today, or should I just release it as-is? hm...
pmichaud masak: whatever facilitates the release
jnthn pmichaud: The main one is: if you were doing pasttype for, and the underlying implementation looked however you fancied, what would you do? Something like Parrot iterators, or... 15:47
masak pmichaud: good point.
tadzik masak: it didn't change much since the last release, did it?
masak no, not much.
but there was a bugfix that went in.
ooh!
I know!
pmichaud jnthn: hmmm, I'll have to think about that one (1 day)
masak I'll restore Tardis to a working condition.
that's not much work.
tadzik "I'll implement threading!"
pmichaud I don't have a solid answer 15:48
jnthn pmichaud: It's fine, I wasn't planning to do it tonight. :-)
pmichaud: But would really like to have for loops soon. For one because not being able to iterate hashes is gonna block me soon. :-)
I figure we don't want the full-blown Perl 6 iterator model at NQP level though.
pmichaud I'm wondering if perhaps we do.
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tadzik jnthn: are you basically rewriting the whole NQP? 15:49
jnthn tadzik: Not really. It's just that pasttype<for> on Parrot compiles down to Parrot's iterator model. I don't have one of those yet for the 6model on .Net implementation though. 15:50
tadzik I see 15:51
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masak bottom icon at modules.perl6.org/fame-and-profit has bitrotted. :/ 15:53
pmichaud afk for a while
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masak wow, Tardis is not a very big project :) 16:04
this is promising. :)
flussence it's bigger on the inside! 16:05
masak I see now that I really had that one coming. :) 16:06
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masak good news! Tardis, while written for alpha and since unmodified, workd fine on master! \o/ 16:10
moritz_ masak: wow, that's impressive
masak maybe because it's so small.
colomon \o/
masak it's basically a subclassing of the Yapsi runtime.
hm. it runs, but not 100% flawlessly. 16:11
time to tinker a bit.
colomon time to add more tests! 16:12
;)
masak indeed. 16:13
I haven't run the tests yet.
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jnthn home & 16:19
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moritz_ masak: that would have been my first thing to do - running tests :-) 16:20
that's what you write them for, after all
masak mumbles something about backseat coders... :)
I'm going to run the tests. of which, I'm sure, there are several... :) 16:21
moritz_ "several" 16:22
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moritz_ mumbles something about backseat testers 16:22
masak :D
moritz_ :-) 16:23
masak I'm not sure we agree on the term "backseat X-er" here. but nvm.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-seat_driver
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moritz_ I know it wasn't the best term to use, but worth the retort anyway :-) 16:24
masak nod 16:25
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masak the tests tell me the same thing that running the program manually did. ordinarily, I would have run the tests first as well. but I'm a pessimist, and I actually thought I'd get a compiler error :) 16:32
moritz_ so you think your programs are half broken :-) 16:33
masak that's not a matter of debate :P 16:34
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masak rakudo: my $a = "fool!"; $a ~~ / (foo) /; say $0 16:35
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«foo␤»
masak rakudo: my $a = "fool!"; $a !~~ / (foo) /; say $0
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«foo␤»
masak ooh!
masak resolves rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=76892
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masak also interesting: last time I wrote this, I had the runtime do self.*tick rather than self.?tick -- my reasoning was that if there are several subclasses, each subclass will want to run their .tick method. 16:41
but this time it seems that I'm going with self.?tick again.
reasoning as follows: it's always the responsibility of the .tick method in the most derived class to determine how the rest of the dispatch is to be performed. 16:42
TimToady it can control it either way
masak is the result the exact same, though? 16:43
TimToady but one way you use lastcall, and the other way you use nextsame
masak ah, right.
TimToady all you're changing is the default
masak nod.
TimToady the main thing is that they all have to agree
masak anyway, I think I want the default to be .? and nextsame.
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masak just as I want the default in my email client to be "reply" and not "reply to all" :) 16:44
by the way, I don't remember if cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/11/1006...3/fulltext has been linked here yet. 16:47
colomon I haven't seen it linked here.
I think he's a bit daft. 16:48
:)
masak please elaborate.
(I haven't read the article.)
colomon but I'm shocked at how many people out there responding to the article want nothing to do with Unicode.
He disses Perl, operator overloading, and heaven forbid the notion you might define your own operators. 16:50
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masak some people don't like the idea of freedom under responsibility. 16:51
colomon and is pro-things like having colors be important in your code.
moritz_ colomon: most people don't know about Unicode until something goes wrong
colomon: so they always associated Unicode with something hard to understand that you have to fiddle with to unbreak stuff
colomon moritz_: rather more darkly, I think a lot of people don't give a rat's ass if languages are not great for working with anything but English.
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colomon mostly, though, I think the article is just confused. 16:53
or maybe that's just from my perspective. 16:54
I guess the quick summary is, he wants to widely open the scope of what might constitute your language's syntax, while at the same time mocking the idea of freedom under responsibility. (as masak++ so nicely put it) 16:55
masak I work with Java people daily.
tadzik wait, is he implying that Perl is unreadable because of the ability to define new operators?
colomon no, he's imply Perl was unreadable before that. 16:56
but he says that if C++ had let you define new operators, it would have been unreadable even before Perl was.
masak ok. swimming, then nom, then November blogging, then Yapsi release. :)
&
moritz_ "Why not make color part of the syntax?" seems he hasn't heard of ColorForth 16:57
"And, yes, me too: I wrote this in vi(1), which is why the article does not have all the fancy Unicode glyphs in the first place." -- what about :help digraphs ?
TimToady that would be vim
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TimToady there are tests for colorblindness; maybe we need some tests for Unicodeblindness... 16:58
masak :)
"does this just look like dots to you?"
TimToady ⣮ 16:59
masak I know that's Braille, but my first association was to the front panel of the computer in War Games. 17:02
allbery_b <moritz_> "Why not make color part of the syntax?" seems he hasn't heard of ColorForth
Piet
masak I've heard Whitespace uses colors, too :P
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colomon re ColorForth -- yeah, that's the other thing, the guy doesn't seem terribly well-informed, either. 17:05
moritz_ well, it was an amusing read 17:06
allbery_b wonder if there are any toy languages yet which use fonts for syntax 17:08
TimToady English?
allbery_b (you'd think this would be a no-brainer, considering that the Algol community always used specific conts for keywords vs. variables etc.)
specific fonts 17:09
colomon TimToady: are you kidding? that language is write-only! ;)
diakopter I thought it was read-only
allbery_b ...that's why we're here...
TimToady not if you add in all the Unicode glyphs, apparently :)
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moritz_ remebers the windows 3.11 days, where you'd use a different font to get non-Latin-1 glyphs. Then changing the font made the whole document useless 17:09
TimToady changing to a non-Unicode font can still do that :P 17:10
moritz_ yes, but a simple change back fixes it again
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dalek ast: 4d4775e | moritz++ | S05-capture/subrule.t:
[subrule.t] tests for RT #76892
 17:19
moritz_ would like to give Nick Wellnhofer a Rakudo commit bit. He has submitted various good patches (often related to parrot changes). 17:23
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moritz_ maybe somebody can propose it in #phasers tomorrow, I might not be able to make it (or I might forget it) 17:24
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dalek odel: 412d72d | mberends++ | java/runtime/ (22 files):
[java/runtime] sync with dotnet/runtime up to this point
 17:37
diakopter mberends: :) 17:38
mberends the java/compiler side is almost caught up, but the generated code is still faulty :/
currently creating a test harness for the runtime to make sure the bugs are not over there... 17:39
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jnthn mberends: Wow, that's quite some catching up! 17:57
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jnthn (generated code faulty) doesn't compile, or crashes at runtime? Got a stack trace? 17:58
ash_ jnthn, how does 6model work? 18:02
moritz_ with magic! 18:03
ash_: there are lots of blog posts on 6guts.wordpress.com/ that describe it
ash_ i am just curious because i have been thinking about my thing i started last spring, nq-nqp, and the biggest problem i was the parse, could something along the lines of 6model help me with that? 18:04
diakopter ash_: currently it emits C# using a compiler written in NQP, and the C# code is compiled against a runtime manually written in C#
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ash_ i guess i wouldn't shoot for p6 code, i'd aim at parsing and emitting for nqp 18:04
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moritz_ ash_: it uses the parrot nqp-rx thing for parsing 18:04
jnthn ash_: What diakopter++ said. 18:05
moritz_ ... until it's bootstrapped
jnthn ash_: The aim for parsing is to write a PAST::Regex emitter to C#.
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jnthn And then compile use the nqp-rx grammar. 18:05
And bootstrap it.
ash_ the emitters and the PAST of parrot/nqp/p6 are all still really foreign to me, thats one area i haven't looked at to try to understand how it works yet 18:06
jnthn ash_: The PAST to C# emitter is written in NQP 18:07
ash_: Which may well make it easier to get your head around than the PAST to PIR one, which is written in PIR.
ash_ is that in dotnet or common? 18:08
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jnthn ash_: dotnet/compiler/ 18:09
ash_: See PAST2DNST.pm
ash_: DNST is a dotnet-y syntax tree. 18:10
ash_: The idea is that rather than converting it to C#, we'll eventually turn it right into IL.
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jnthn Without having to re-write all of PAST2DNST.pm 18:10
ash_ IL?
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ash_ is IL the .net intermediate language? 18:11
jnthn ash_: Yes 18:12
ash_ got ya
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ash_ is that independent of mono vs ms's runtime? i don't really know anything about C# or .NET or the CLR 18:13
jnthn ash_: It works on both. mberends++ regularly tries it out on Mono, and I work against the MS one.
The switch to IL shouldn't cause issues there.
ash_: DNST and JST (same thing for Java) will, ideally, get merged at some point soonish, and then we'll have a DNST2[worreva we call it], and then [worreva we call it]2C# and [worreva we call it]2Java or some such. They're already really similar, and it'll save some duplication of work. 18:15
Up to mberends++ when that happens. :-)
ash_ i wonder if that could work with the llvm too, thats the whole point of the nq-nqp i was working on, was to try to compile nqp down to llvm code when possible, with the appropriate runtime defined of course 18:16
diakopter the switch to IL won't exactly be ... trivial, since IL is stack-based 18:17
and the C# is currently generated inside-out
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jnthn diakopter: Agree it'll be non-trivial. I started out with generating C# 'cus it's just...a load simpler to make something work. :-) 18:22
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jnthn ash_: Maybe take a look through either dotnet/runtime/ or java/runtime/ (whichever of the two you find easier to read), and see what it might take to get that kinda thing in place on llvm. I've really not that much idea how hard it'd be. Also nom branch in nqp-rx has some work on doing 6model bits in C. LLVM is a bunch more low-level than the CLR or JVM. May be worth dragging in the APR to provide hashes and a bunch of other stuff to save re-inventing various wheels 18:25
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ash_ i am using C++ currently to save myself from having to re-inventing some wheels, and some of the llvm lib's too, they have a StringMap that is an optimized hash template for C++ for instance 18:28
jnthn That works too. :-) 18:30
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jnthn nom & 18:33
sjohnson nom = nom nom? 18:34
eating?
tadzik yep
moritz_ nom nom, but with less repetition :-) 18:35
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sjohnson i eated a cheezburger 18:36
colomon pumpkin seeds 18:41
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sjohnson colomon++ # halloween spirit 18:51
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sorear argh now I've lost ash_ 19:12
ash_ hmm?
sorear I don't have enough tuits to fight the JnthnNQP Borg ;)
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ash_ assimiliate ! 19:13
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sorear yeah, you and mberends and now even diakopter... 19:19
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mberends sorear, don't despair, when 6model reaches a certain critical mass we'll all come over to niecza to have a play as well :-) 19:22
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Util New RC: rosettacode.org/wiki/Simple_Quatern...ons#Perl_6 19:49
shortcircuit Hm. Looks like the Perl6 syntax highlighting could use some improvements in the interpolation department. 19:51
Not sure whether or not that's possible in this version of GeSHi, though.
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slavik1 sqrt ( [+] ( self.reals X** 2 ) ) square root of all the numbers squares added? 19:52
[+] is a folder?
TimToady yes
slavik1 that is awesome! :D
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TimToady all those parens are useless though 19:52
slavik1 TimToady: not disagreeing. :) 19:53
TimToady: how good is your understanding of russian? there is a funny bash.org type quote you might enjoy
TimToady I don't really grok russian.
slavik1 :( 19:54
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TimToady and don't tell me: "It's only funny in Russian." :) 19:54
slavik1 translate.google.com/?hl=en#auto|en...%BD%D0%B4% 19:58
D0%BC%D0%B8.%0A-%20%D0%95%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D1%87%D1%82%D0%BE%3F%0A-%20%D0%9D%D1%83%20%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F%2C%20%D1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%20%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%2C%20%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5.
oh man
that is horrible
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slavik1 tinyurl.com/24j627t 19:58
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slavik1 basically, the interviewer used the word that came from english (meaning to contaminate) when talking about russian being contaminated with words from english 19:59
TimToady I guess it's only funny in Russian. :)
tadzik subset Qu of Quaternion; # Makes a short alias 20:00
interesting. How local is it?
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TimToady subset defaults to 'our', but you could say 'my subset' 20:01
jnthn lol...контаминация :-)
tadzik cool
kontaminacja?
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jnthn kontaminacie po slovensky :-) 20:02
slavik1: I'm getting the impression that there's often a "proper" Russian word along with an English loan for quite a few things. :-) 20:04
TimToady I demand that we desist from utilizing French words.
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tadzik I think French people have some beaurocracy behind finding pure-French equivalents for english worlds 20:04
that's why they have Ordinateur instead of Computer, and stuff 20:05
Util tadzik: I reall wanted something more to the point, like "my ::Qu ::= Quaternion", but it does not work yet.
tadzik how about my $q = Quaternion, like with anonymous classes?
TimToady well, constant Q = Quaternion ought to work 20:06
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TimToady type names are just funny constants 20:06
std: constant I = Int;
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
Util tadzik: That would look odd in a signature, if it worked: multi sub infix:<+> ( $q $a, Real $b ) {...} 20:07
jnthn std: constant I = Int; sub foo(I $houlda-thought-so) { }
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $houlda-thought-so is declared but not used at /tmp/_VK1TERBpP line 1:␤------> constant I = Int; sub foo(I ⏏$houlda-thought-so) { }␤ok 00:01 123m␤»
tadzik std: say "ok 00:01 {rand}m" 20:08
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
tadzik oh look, an implementation :)
Util: oh, probably
slavik1 jnthn: yes
TimToady: I agree
TimToady std: sub foo (42 $x) {...} 20:09
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/sZdrIUgizn line 1:␤------> sub foo (42 ⏏$x) {...}␤ok 00:01 121m␤»
Util TimToady: would have loved the constant, but "Constant type declarator not yet implemented"
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TimToady I'll have to glare at the parameter grammar. 20:10
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jnthn rakudo: sub foo(42 $x) { ... } 20:11
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: ( no output )
jnthn bwaha
rakudo: sub foo(42 $x) { say "ok" }; foo(42)
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«ok␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(42 $x) { say "ok" }; foo(69) 20:12
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$x'␤ in 'foo' at line 1:/tmp/uW3WPdLswg␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/uW3WPdLswg␤»
jnthn Wow.
Rakudo is...smart enough to promote it to a constraint?!
rakudo: sub foo(42 $x) { ... }; say &foo.signature
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«Signature()<0x634e3e0>␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(42 $x) { ... }; say &foo.signature.perl
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«:(Int $x where (42))␤»
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jnthn That's a...surprise win. :-) 20:13
Util removes some excess parens. TimToady++ 20:14
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TimToady you don't really need the parens around the args to Z* either 20:15
(you would if it were a hyper though)
the parens inside the [+] are also being useless, since Z* is tighter than [+] 20:17
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Util TimToady: Fixed. Thanks! 20:21
BBL; will backscroll
TimToady o/
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sjohnson hi 20:25
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pinkstarrpunk24 can anyone tell me how this chat thing works? 21:10
diakopter I don't know
sjohnson heh
colomon and there you have it.
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sjohnson people chat, you find something funny, you write back 21:11
jnthn pinkstarrpunk24: To take part, type /part
pinkstarrpunk24 well that doesnt help me lol
no, i have been in plenty of chat rooms, i get that part, lol...this particular chat site, i dont get 21:12
at least i found one where ppl speak English tho...haha
diakopter which site is that
pinkstarrpunk24 some blackberry app i downloaded. 21:13
chatmosphere irc
diakopter did it randomly select #perl6 on freenode (where you are now)? 21:14
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mberends presumably pinkstarrpunk24 asked chatmosphere to find the friendliest channel on Freenode ;) 21:17
perigrin and it didn't pick #perl?
perigrin hides.
diakopter chides
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pinkstarrpunk24 It just popped up when i put in USA.... 21:29
diakopter interesting...
pinkstarrpunk24 why? 21:30
diakopter interesting that there is an app that does such a thing
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pinkstarrpunk24 really? yeah, id never seen it before in my blkberry app world but it was there one day. its only a trial version tho. i wont have it in 9 days. 21:31
masak ahoy!
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pinkstarrpunk24 4soooooo this is kinda boring. 21:33
masak are you kidding?
this is the best thing since... since Perl 5! 21:34
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masak pinkstarrpunk24: you know what I'm doing tonight? I'm embarking on a 30-day journey of ascetism, coding, and blogging. 21:34
pinkstarrpunk24 13hahahahaha huh, well, this is the first time ive been in here and im still kinda lost.
masak that is to be expected. 21:35
colomon masak++
masak solution: come back more often.
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masak pmichaud++'s interview is doing a lot of good: twitter.com/johndcook/status/29390988890 21:35
flussence I was convinced that 69.41.* was some sort of not-particularly-effective spambot. Guess I was wrong :/ 21:36
colomon I like Cook's blog. Lots of tasty math.
pinkstarrpunk24 13huh, i dont know anything about that stuff....i do everything online related from my phone. lol
masak oh noes, the postfix "lol". that is a strong signal that you're a one-time visitor. 21:37
pinkstarrpunk24: well, it was nice to know you.
diakopter masak: see the backlog.. it was a random chatroom selection :) 21:38
masak I'm reading backlog as fast as I can! :)
pinkstarrpunk24 13lol is it that obvious? haha well, good luck on your 30 day bender :)
diakopter why the app includes freenode in the list of networks at all is ... surprising.
Tene Lots of non-english in "Perl 6" search on twitter.
masak ascetism is the opposite of a bender, isn't it? :)
Tene: it's TimToady++'s fault. 21:39
szabgab I wish I had some time to write Perl 6
masak pinkstarrpunk24: I don't mean to scare you off at all. I'm happy you're here.
szabgab: I wish I had money to pay you to write Perl 6 for me. 21:40
szabgab I am working on that :)
masak \o/
szabgab we have a Perl devroom at FOSDEM 21:41
masak slavik1: so... it's an autopun, and that's the funny part? 21:42
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Tene Haha, the last item on this page: help.webcity.com.au/categories/WEB-...l-and-CGI/ 21:42
pinkstarrpunk24 13lol thanks. im just confused with all the lingo. so, im trying to read and understand. :) 21:43
masak Tene: we discussed it earlier today.
Tene :)
szabgab Tene: they are in .au, they come from the future :)
masak pinkstarrpunk24: I've been here for 5 years. *I'm* confused with all the lingo.
pinkstarrpunk24 13masak: hahahahahaha okay, good. i dont feel so bad now. so what exactly are all of you here for? i mean, is it just to chat? 21:44
masak we're building a programming language that we hope will last for the coming 20 years. 21:45
or is that 20 years since 2000?
anyway. that's what we're up to.
rakudo: say "OH HAI pinkstarrpunk24!" 21:46
p6eval rakudo 5f5bae: OUTPUT«OH HAI pinkstarrpunk24!␤»
masak there it is. we have a program called Rakudo that can run our language.
I just typed in a short program, and it ran it, right here on the channel.
colomon also one called yapsi
masak and one called Pugs.
szabgab and one called TimToady 21:47
masak :)
pinkstarrpunk24 13whoa! thats cool! idk what a programming language is but i im sure whatever it is, its prolly pretty awesome.
diakopter _._
mkramer I'm calling troll 21:48
Tene ⍨
masak a programming language is a language for communicating intent to a computer, and to other programmers.
pinkstarrpunk24 13thats neat. how do u know how to do all that?
masak that's something one has to learn over time.
diakopter mkramer: it's light-hearted. it's still entertainment.
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pinkstarrpunk24 13oh, i see....thats really neat. i wish i could relate. lol 21:50
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masak pinkstarrpunk24: we take pride in our particular programming language being easy to learn and use, and a good language for experienced programmers. 21:50
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Guest58610 mkramer: did you call me ? 21:50
masak :)
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pinkstarrpunk24 13u should take pride in that. that is certainly a skill that not many have. ive never understood computers past logging onto my facebook. lol 21:52
masak well, there are programmers behind Facebook as well.
for every computer application you use, someone somewhere has coded it up. 21:53
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pinkstarrpunk24 13my uncle designed and programmed the first micro chip for ATM machines. 21:53
masak that's a bit more to the hardware side of things, but fair enough.
pinkstarrpunk24 13yeah, he works with computers. i know he gets paid 6 figures for his computer knowlege so i assume he would understand all this. lol 21:55
diakopter pinkstarrpunk24: how did you make your text pink? 21:56
pinkstarrpunk24 13to the right of the text bar there is a box with colors in it. i just picked one. 21:57
diakopter regarding the FLOSS weekly page, "Rakudo Star is a more usable and stable distribution of Perl 6." more usable and stable .. than what?
szabgab welcome to the new age of IRC :)
flussence diakopter: more usable and stable than... before? 21:58
masak diakopter: more usable and stable than really unusable and unstable things.
diakopter no offense, but those don't really make sense
jnthn found it a slightly curious wording too, tbh 21:59
masak there's a slight chance they weren't meant to :)
diakopter masak: granted/noted :D
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patrickas o/ 22:06
masak patrickas! \o/
patrickas LOLITSMASAK! 22:07
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pinkstarrpunk24 13masak: okay, im gonna go. thanks for trying to explain all of this to me. :) good luck doing all of this! 22:16
masak pinkstarrpunk24: thanks! good luck with your stuff too!
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patrickas oh by the way that's the second time a bb user has joined accidentally the channel in the past couple of days! 22:17
masak must be some bug somewhere :)
patrickas Never underestimate the appeal of #perl6 for bb users! 22:18
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ash_ can we get rakudo (or other implementation) running on the bb? :P 22:24
tadzik Star works on n900 iirc 22:25
dalek psi: 567c031 | masak++ | lib/Yapsi.pm:
[Yapsi] adapted to Tardis

This meant adding back the .tick method calls, as well as exposing the
  $.current-lexpad as an attribute, so that the .pick method in the deriving
Tardis::Debugger class can see it. (It could see a private $!current-lexpad too, but that's a deficiency in Rakudo, that shouldn't be exploited.)		 22:28
jnthn .pick? :-)
masak nope, .tick 22:30
as in one atomic step in a program, as in debugging. 22:31
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jnthn masak: There was a .pick in the commit message, thus my confusion. :-) 22:35
masak oh dang :) 22:36
I could go back and change, it but it's pushed history, so I'll just let it stay confusing.
orz
tadzik you can push --force 22:41
git star wars style
masak right; I know. 22:42
I'm not sure I think it's worth it. 22:43
tadzik night.good() 22:47
22:48 tadzik left
masak tadzik: night! 22:48
22:49 justatheory joined 22:52 colbseton_ left
patrickas night all 22:55
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masak blog post! strangelyconsistent.org/blog/novemb...ive-action 23:18
colomon masak++
masak just a teeny tiny bit over the mark. :)
oh well, it's the 1st somewhere :)
jnthn yay, November! \o/ 23:19
masak goes into Yapsi release mode
jnthn :-) 23:20
colomon it's the 1st here!
flussence Yayvember!
23:23 dnl- left 23:28 dnl joined
jnthn -> sleep 23:35
masak 'night, jnthn. 23:36
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masak any comments on github.com/masak/yapsi/blob/master/...ce/2010.11 ? 23:37
please let me know if I'm missing any obvious ways to be silly.
dalek psi: 16b2615 | masak++ | doc/announce/2010.11:
[doc/announce/2010.11] added
psi: 7809b61 | masak++ | doc/ChangeLog:
[doc/ChangeLog] updated for 2010.11 release
masak finds grammar parsefail on line 14 23:38
fixing.
23:41 justatheory left
masak ok, making a tarball. last call for comments on the release announcement. 23:42
dalek psi: 36dfe5c | masak++ | doc/announce/2010.11:
[doc/announce/2010.11] fixed grammar-o
 23:43
psi: cce1b5a | masak++ | doc/announce/2010.11:
[doc/announce/2010.11] small fix
23:50 cdarroch left 23:59 ash_ left, hatseflats left
masak curses! github.com/masak/yapsi/downloads is down, so I can't upload my tarball. 23:59

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