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Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
masak post is now live: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/0...variables/ 00:02
00:09 shi left 00:13 risou_ joined
masak each time I see shi's quit message, it makes me think about DAGs. 00:13
computer science has corrupted me. :)
TimToady didn't anyone tell you that you are actually just an xkcd comic? 00:14
masak I knew it!
00:16 risou left
lichtkind can it be that rakudo is weak on quoting adverbs? 00:20
masak yes.
Alias__ releases P5 List::MoreUtils 0.28 00:21
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Alias__ The any/all/none functions now behave identically to the P6 junctions in null list cases 00:21
masak Alias__++
Alias__ Is there a 4th junction? 00:22
jnthn one
Alias__ For the complete set, List::MoreUtils has notall
jnthn (exlusive-or-ish)
Alias__ I'm not sure why, personally
masak `notall` and `one` sound like they're just one well-placed negation apart.
Alias__ I think L:MU has a history of adding more and more functions for no good reason 00:23
masak no, wait.
`one` means "exactly one".
Alias__ right
TimToady someone please add the missing list functions to S32-setting-library/Containers.pod, except for the ones we don't want :)
Alias__ notall is to all as none is to any
masak whoa :)
...yes. :)
Alias__ Personally, I didn't think we needed it 00:24
But I only wrote the original blog post that inspired L:MU, I didn't actually write it or maintain it until this week
TimToady how is that different from not all()
masak not at all :P
Alias__ Why have none instead of not any() ?
Symmetric case
masak 'none' looks much nicer than 'notall'. 00:25
Alias__ The visual ugliness of notall is acknowledged, but an orthogonal issue :)
TimToady :)
masak not in #perl6 :)
Alias__ files a community bug report 00:26
masak heh :)
thundergnat Ok, then the code I wrote earlier to implement [^^] ( RT# 65164 )at gist.github.com/730480 has been built and tested under linux and windows. There's a diff at gist.github.com/731232 . Anyone with a commit bit like to review and/or commit?
masak wait, which community? :)
I just assumed it was against the Perl 5 community...
Alias__ moves onto core'ifying YAML::Tiny
TimToady std: my @a; [^^]@a 00:29
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/CWlsQbYiqh line 1:␤------> my @a; [^^]⏏@a␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤
..prefix_circumfix_meta_operator␤ prefix_postfix_meta_opera…
TimToady std: my @a; [^^] @a
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤» 00:30
TimToady thundergnat: ^^
or should I say [^^]?
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jnthn rakudo: my @a; [+]@a 00:33
p6eval rakudo : ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: my @a; [+] @a
p6eval rakudo : ( no output )
jnthn std: my @a; [+]@a
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/X3s2UwqFte line 1:␤------> my @a; [+]⏏@a␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤
..prefix_circumfix_meta_operator␤ prefix_postfix_meta_operat…
jnthn ETOOLIBERAL 00:34
oh masak... :)
TimToady rakudo: say (1 ^^ 0 ^^ 2 ^^ 0 ^^ 3).perl
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/XsINn7q324␤»
masak submits rakudobug
TimToady Undef?!?
jnthn wtf...Undef?
masak Parrot leakage.
jnthn I want a Parrot without Undef... :|
TimToady rakudo: say True if 1 ^^ 2 ^^ 3 00:35
p6eval rakudo : ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say True if 1 ^^ 0 ^^ 0
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
TimToady it's hard to understand the [^^] logic, which seems a bit contorted for "exactly one of these is true"
masak it's weirder than that. it's "give me the one true element in this list... unless there are more of them, in which case I want Bool::False" o.O 00:37
thundergnat Well, It's if exactly one of these is true, return that value, otherwise return Bool::False
err, what masak said 00:38
TimToady okay, if it does that, fine; was too lazy to figger it out :)
masak yes, and that's the semantics of infix:<xor> as well. 00:39
TimToady btw, for shouldn't need ()
thundergnat Sorry, habit. 00:40
masak TimToady: by the way, why *does* C<[+]@a> constitute a TTIAR?
TimToady consistency with other listops
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....kup_tablet 00:41
masak TimToady: oh; I thought it was because most other listops were words, like 'say'.
std: [+] 00:42
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Prefix requires an argument at /tmp/2R_iev_A3G line 1 (EOF):␤------> [+]⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
masak TimToady: also, if C<[+]> is a listop, why is C<[+]> not a valid program, but needs to be C<[+] ()>?
TimToady that's a known bug, but only happens at the end of the buffer
masak std: [+]; say "OH HAI"
TimToady iirc
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
masak oh, ok.
I feel better now.
thought it was a feature.
jnthn rakudo: [+] 00:43
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "[+]"␤»
jnthn rakudo: [+];
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "[+];"␤»
jnthn aww.
rakudo: [+]; say "I am ok!"
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "[+]; say \""␤»
masak submits rakudobug
TimToady part of the reason for requiring the space on listops is to distinguish foo() from foo (), and this applies to [+] too
jnthn wonders if that and the other parsing bug are related.
masak TimToady: that's a good reason. thanks.
TimToady the error message could perhaps be a bit better though 00:44
not my highest priority at the moment, alas
masak *nod* 00:45
TimToady it just seems like it'd be clearer for [^^] to just count true values, and return false on the 2nd true 00:47
jnthn sleep & 00:48
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thundergnat It still has to save the value of the first true value somewhere so it can check the rest of the list to make sure it was the ONLY true value. 00:49
It returns the value that evaluates to true, not just true 00:50
TimToady right, I keep forgetting that :)
premature senility, I don't doubt
thundergnat join the crowd
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diakopter speaking of clearer error messages, may I suggest considering one for /(?:x)/ 00:52
TimToady std: /(?:x)/ 00:53
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/VZtH9ulToV line 1:␤------> /(?:⏏x)/␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady looks like a good message to me :P
or are you thinking of something more along the lines of "This is Perl 6, duh!"
diakopter I guess I was thinking of p5 00:54
TimToady what would be bad is if we made (?:x) actually mean something in P6 :)
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet 00:57
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masak sleeps 01:04
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lichtkind masak: o/ 01:26
karma: Herbert Breunung
karma Herbert Breunung
aloha Herbert Breunung has karma of 193.
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lichtkind :( i thought i lost my karma 01:26
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lichtkind parrot: my $a = q////; 01:51
rakudo: my $a = q////; 01:52
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "my $a = q/"␤»
lichtkind std: my $a = q////;
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Bogus term at /tmp/wHVKWIY72s line 1:␤------> my $a = q////⏏;␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
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lichtkind std: my $a = q/\//; 01:52
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
lichtkind std: my $a = q|\||;
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
lichtkind rakudo: my $a = q|\||; 01:53
p6eval rakudo : ( no output )
lichtkind rakudo: my $a = q|\||; $a
p6eval rakudo : ( no output )
lichtkind std: my $a = q|\||; say $a
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
LaVolta morning #perl6
lichtkind moin
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dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ics_tablet 03:51
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rjbs moritz_: p6 advent day 3: s/sp,e/some/ 03:59
sorear good * #perl6 04:26
diakopter hi 04:31
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sorear How should CLS Events be exposed to Perl 6? 06:36
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moritz_ good morning 07:09
rjbs: updated, thanks. I don't know which cat walked on my keyboard, because I don't have one :-) 07:11
sorear hello moritz_ 07:12
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moritz_ oh hai sorear 07:14
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moritz_ -> commute 07:20
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moritz_ wow, that was exhausting 08:02
biking through the snow sludge
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finanalyst jnthn: ping 08:14
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sorear out 09:19
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masak oh hai, #perl6 10:16
jnthn o/ 10:17
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masak three days to Big Announcement. 10:26
finanalyst good localtime to you. What Big Announcement? 10:28
masak finanalyst: the one I'll announce in three days...
it's something Perl 6-related. 10:29
finanalyst masak: that is sneaky and highly commercial to do linked advertising 10:30
makes everyone want to know what it is without knowing what it is
masak finanalyst: be glad you caught on now, and not a month ago, when I started teasing :P
finanalyst masak: I have not been trolling this forum for several months due to $problems_at_work 10:31
masak sorry to hear that. 10:32
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hdanak masak: is this announcement rakudo related? 10:47
masak hdanak: I'm not authorized to say.
hdanak: if you want clues, there are a few strewn out in the backlog. 10:48
oha masak: it remember me a game... "is it an animal?" ... "does have 4 legs?"
masak hdanak: on 2010-11-10, 2010-11-20, and 2010-11-30.
oha: "20 questions"?
oha but you must reply only with Bool::True or Bool::False
hdanak masak: meh, i can wait 3 days :)
masak I'm happy I've reached at least two people with the news today :) 10:49
just remember: you'll like it, so you might as well be excited now. :)
hdanak btw, i was wondering what the rationale is behind changing the ternary operator in perl6 to ?? !! ?
masak hdanak: many things. 10:50
hdanak: it started out with the assumption the ? and : were too important as single-char operators to be claimed by this relatively unusual construct. 10:51
(more unusual than, say, && or ++)
hdanak: then it was ?? :: for a while, so just a doubling of the characters. 10:52
but the :: caused problems with package-related things, so ideas were thrown around and we landed on ?? !!.
hdanak i see
kinda makes sense, i guess i can live with that
masak it has a nice "strange concistency" about it, I think. 10:53
'!' usually means "not" -- here it kinda means "else".
hdanak especially since !! is kinda like an "error" case
masak yes.
hdanak i'm just waiting for rakudo to be fast enough to use perl6 instead of perl5
masak also, ?? !! is related to boolean things, and many other such operators have double characters" || && // ^^ 10:54
hdanak however much I love perl5, some things (mostly fixed by perl6 grammars) feel like jury-rigging in perl5 even though it may be the preferred way to do it
masak hdanak: well, "fast enough" depends on what one is doing. for some things it's already fast enough. for others, it's definitely not.
Juerd masak: Did :: really cause problems with namespaces? I thought the switch to !! was purely because of the ?-! contrast that already existed in two other places. 10:55
masak "jury-rigging". I like that description.
hdanak well, the constant factor is too high... doing anything with >> 1000 elements
especially the regexes
masak Juerd: I'm not 100% sure, but I seem to remember that (collision with pachages) being the rationale.
Juerd :: isn't really an operator, is it? 10:56
Whitespace would be the disambiguator
masak indeed.
though this was many years ago, so it might have been before TTIAR was formalized. 10:57
I dunno.
hdanak i find the whole dot-notation ugly though...
masak hdanak: huh. I don't.
hdanak yeah, mostly because it's no longer concatenation 10:58
masak the ?? !! construct also went through a number of changes in precedence.
hdanak by the way, is [+] folding operator rfold or lfold?
masak hdanak: as far as I know, you're not supposed to have to care. 10:59
hdanak hmm
it could matter if your operator isn't commutative
well, no
it matters in haskell for infinite lists at least :)
masak aye.
I'm going to mumble "sane default" here and leave it at that. :) 11:00
the spec doesn't say, as far as I know.
jnthn It looks at the ops assoc trait, iirc.
masak oh!
of course!
jnthn Netcraft^WActions.pm probably confirms it. :) 11:01
masak :)
hdanak the real question is... how will vim know how to highlight perl6 vs perl5? 11:04
flussence same way it can figure out what dialect a .sh file is in... 11:06
put some more lines into the gigantic content-sniffing file 11:07
(which it already has in 7.3 btw) 11:08
tadzik o/ 11:25
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hdanak flussence: hey, do you know how I can change modes from the perl/vim interface (embedded perl interpreter in vim)? 11:59
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flussence hdanak: never used it, sorry 12:29
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finanalyst perl6 reports that you can set --trace=s but what values of s are possible? 12:45
moritz_ small integers 12:46
finanalyst different values of -t from 0 to 15 seem to have no effect 12:48
moritz_ then the option is broken 12:49
instead you can try
parrot --trace=1 perl6.pbc <scriptname> 12:50
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takadonet morning all 13:01
moritz_ g'morning
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smash hello everyone 13:39
takadonet smash: yo
smash hey
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tadzik hello 13:43
masak the greetings-to-code ratio is too high today :P 13:47
tadzik so, C++ anyone? :) 13:50
tadzik fighting with dynamic linking
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oha masak: otoh, i feel that the thanks-to-code is too low in general. so ty :) 14:04
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masak feels warm all over :) 14:05
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donri try.rakudo.org/ fails to evaluate any code 14:07
takadonet donri: thanks for the heads up 14:09
colomon tadzik: just working on my $work plans (mostly in C++) for the next year. 14:19
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takadonet www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...variables/ 15:47
masak takadonet++ 15:48
I must admit to not understanding this view of programming: www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...an/c1832zl
I hear the same about Haskell sometimes. "the only errors that got through were design or logic errors!"
moritz_ ... or endless recursion 15:49
masak as if there is a big threatening heap of errors being avoided because the compiler is draconian.
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moritz_ well, there's some kind of oversight error that the compiler catches 15:50
masak I'd say the risk of committing stupid logic or design errors is about as large with languages that are draconian on the type level.
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masak but the user feels better, perhaps because he *likes* getting whipped. 15:50
colomon I'm almost inclined to say the risk is worse, because of the danger of contorting your logic to make the type system happy. 15:51
flussence false sense of security...
moritz_ masocism programming?
masak there's a similar type of discipline that I *do* like: getting test failures. I value those much more than I value stupid type casting errors.
also, I'm not dismissing type systems and strong typing (whatever that means) altogether. for example, I consider it good documentation. 15:52
flussence when it's done right :)
masak but yeah, "false sense of security" sums it up. typing is not a panacea.
I believe moritz_++ wrote a blog post about that once.
moritz_ did I? 15:53
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moritz_ can't remember :-) 15:53
flussence (I screw up simple things in postgres often...)
moritz_ speaking of blogs
moritz_ looks up who's next
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colomon There is no panacea, period. 15:53
moritz_ tadzik++ is up for tomorrow's advent calendar
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moritz_ no volunteer for Dec 9th so far 15:54
masak moritz_: ah, I was thinking of this: perlgeek.de/blog-en/misc/dbc-vs-tests.html
moritz_ I've started on an article about the flip/reverse/invert distinction
masak c'mon, people! volunteer for the Advent Calendar! it's fun!
moritz_ if nobody wants the day after tomorrow, I could chime in
but I hope others do it, because I've already written 2 posts 15:55
masak moritz_: oh, I'd better help you write that one, I already got some ideas what to write :)
moritz_ masak: that post was from a slightly different angle
masak moritz_: yes, I see that now.
moritz_ masak: we can colaborate, and publish as masritz or mosak :-) 15:56
masak ooh
masitz 15:57
or mohawk.
colomon mohawk!
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masak I've long wanted to co-present with someone on a YAPC-like conf. 15:58
would be great fun.
even if it's just a lightning talk.
moritz_ indeed
[particle] one mimes the sigils while the other reads the code? 15:59
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masak [particle]: I don't know about you, but I tend not to read the code out loud during my presentations. 16:00
[particle] heck, no.
there must be an abbott and costello-like routine for perl6 waiting to happen. i don't know what it is, though. 16:01
PerlJam you could each simultaneously give the same lightning talk in different languages.
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moritz_ ... and the interference pattern results in a third language :-) 16:01
masak moritz_: "While waiting for the Catalyst dependencies to install, I decided on a whim to try out Mojolicious, a new-ish web framework." -- is that unintentional or intentional biting criticism? :P 16:02
moritz_ masak: it's just facts
masak moritz_: I laughed out loud reading it :)
moritz_ :-)
I did type 'cpanm Catalyst', and after a few depencies I realizied it would take some time 16:03
PerlJam moritz_: have you ever used Dist::Zilla?
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moritz_ and since I hang out in #perlde together with sri I did consider mojolicious 16:03
PerlJam: yes, but not voluntarily
PerlJam I was joking on #dzil about it having almost as many dependencies as Catalyst and rjbs pointed out that dzil actually has *more* dependencies than Catalyst. 16:04
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moritz_ I'm quite sure it does 16:05
back then I didn't have a custom perl instllation
but actually built debian packages out of all perl modules I wanted to install
installing dzil was a pain, mildly put 16:06
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tadzik hopes he'd be able to write the post before the midnight tomorrow 16:11
moritz_ tadzik: if it looks like you won't be able to, just tell us, somebody might be able to chime in 16:13
(like me, perhaps)
masak I'm ready to help, too. 16:15
tadzik moritz_: I think I'm gonna make it
even sooner, if someone could gimme a hand with C++ and dynamic linking :)
(brb)
masak heh. I searched the web for "inferior runloop", and came up with a lot of Parrot links. is this term specific to Parrot? 16:16
rakudo: $a
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/VoYqtvzkK9:22)␤»
masak might I suggest we could do better than '<anonymous>' there?
actually, I don't see how 'in <anonymous>' would ever serve me very much. 16:17
might as well say 'in <I don't know>'
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = sub { $a }
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/VK0rAlHnyo:22)␤»
masak ok, I accept that case. :)
moritz_ hm 16:18
colomon would you prefer "Symbol '$a' not predeclared (/tmp/VK0rAlHnyo:22)"?
masak rakudo: sub foo { say "OH HAI"; { $a } }
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in foo (/tmp/laLazHlhuR:22)␤»
moritz_ 'anonymous' doesn't even occur in src/Perl6/BacktracePrinter.pm
masak colomon: I'd prefer a line number and a file.
colomon you've got them 16:19
"/tmp/VK0rAlHnyo:22"
masak right. I see them now. :)
yes, so just get rid of 'in <anonymous>', at least when we're not actually in something.
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moritz_ urk 16:23
it comes from PAST::Compiler it seems
masak o.O
flussence s/'in <anonymous>'/'at top level scope'/ ? 16:24
moritz_ flussence: that would be wrong in sub f() { my $x = sub { $undeclared }}
masak indeed.
moritz_ rakudo: $x; BEGIN { say "OH NOEZ" } 16:27
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«OH NOEZ␤===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/w4j0Lkezm2:22)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: $x, BEGIN { say "OH NOEZ" }
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«OH NOEZ␤===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/aSwDxo0xfj:22)␤»
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moritz_ see, the check for declaredness of variables is too late 16:27
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moritz_ it's at the codegen stage 16:27
not at parse time
(that's because we don't have the lexpad at compile time around, a fact which I've bemoaned many times now) 16:28
moritz_ doesn't feel motivated to submit rakudobug, but wouldn't stop masak from doing so, just for the lulz
masak tough one. 16:31
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masak I've no mind to submit bugs that just sit there, not getting fixed... 16:31
better submit too few bugs than too many, that's what I always say. 16:32
moritz_ well, it will get fixed at some point[tm]
colomon #phasers in 2.5?
moritz_ will likely miss it
but yes, 2.5h sounds correct
masak will try to be there
moritz_ but I haven't done much 6y anyway, except for the advent calendar
smash colomon: sorry, didn't have time to share the benchmarking scripts, but it's on my TODO list, sorry
colomon smash: no worries 16:33
masak moritz_++ # guiding the advent calendar along 16:35
I'm somewhat surprized that I didn't get one single reaction on my "this week in Perl 6" idea. am I the only one who misses those weekly updates? 16:36
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colomon I miss them, but I'm a little scared at what they'd show at the moment... 16:37
takadonet masak: what was the idea?
masak colomon: scared? how so? there's lots going on.
moritz_ masak: sorry for not reacting. I thought a lot about that, and didn't want to infect you with my pessimism 16:38
PerlJam masak: I think we're just in a down-phase for development (mostly), so people don't get very excited by "this week in Perl 6"
moritz_ PerlJam: I kinda disagree. Much interesting development happens in modules these days
PerlJam: like cosimo++ porting Factor to Perl 6
masak takadonet: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-12-05#i_3059185
colomon masak: There's a good bit going on, but it's all off in its own little corners. And Rakudo development has more-or-less stopped. 16:39
masak I would *love* to see a weeky-updates effort get going. I think it would be excellent PR, even *within* the ranks of Perl 6.
I'm prepared to put in quite a bit of work to get it going, as long as I'm not entirely alone.
PerlJam moritz_: then I guess "this week in Perl 6" would be an awesome thing to have so that these things get publicity :)
colomon Factor? 16:40
masak colomon: the previous iterations of the weekly updates focused much on p6c and p6l.
PerlJam colomon: facter. I've got the post book marked, but I have no idea what it is.
masak colomon: nowadays, we could also focus on IRC, newly released modules, non-Rakudo implementations, etc.
nom &
16:40 masak left
dukeleto moritz_: who is porting Factor to Perl 6? 16:43
dukeleto had plans to port Factor to Parrot quite a while ago, but never got around to it
PerlJam dukeleto: my.opera.com/cstrep/blog/2010/12/06...-to-perl-6
dukeleto whoa, that is "facter" not Factor 16:44
PerlJam right.
dukeleto Factor is a stack-based programming language
tadzik (also, it doesn't work)
dukeleto tadzik: facter or Factor doesn't work? 16:45
tadzik dukeleto: facter the Perl6 module
at least for me, I remember cosimo fixing it, but it managed to eat 2.5 GBs of RAM trying to get my uname -a output 16:46
colomon would love to see Factor the language ported to Parrot
tadzik so it still needs some love I guess
dukeleto colomon: i plan on taking another crack at it soon. I will be sure to let you know when I do. 16:47
colomon Actually, even just a working Forth might well be useful.
dukeleto colomon: I am friends with the guy who started Factor. He is a cool guy. I would always chat with him, comparing Perl 6 and Factor concepts
colomon dukeleto: I've only played with a bit, but it seemed very cool. 16:48
moritz_ apologizes for confusing Facter and Factor 16:54
dukeleto moritz_: you will be appropriately punished ;) 16:55
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dukeleto moritz_: they are only 1 letter off, I can totally understand 16:55
tadzik 's gravatar is now a real tadzik, not a dog 16:56
dukeleto: especially, when facter is port of factor :)
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dukeleto tadzik: oy vey 17:03
tadzik: my parrot port of Factor is called "Kea" 17:04
tadzik: it is a Parrot from New Zealand that occasionally eats the kidneys of sheep
tadzik: secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kea 17:05
TimToady dead ones, I hope
.oO(I vant to suck your kidney!)
 17:06
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colomon TimToady! \o/ 17:12
TimToady ·⍤Ö(Someone could do an advent panegyric on Camelia) 17:14
maybe it goes with the community entry 17:16
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thundergnat rakudo: my @a = (1,2,3); .say for @a, *; 17:34
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤Whatever()<0x726fa20>␤»
thundergnat rakudo: my @a = (1,2,3); .say for @a, @a[*-1] xx *; 17:35
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«(timeout)␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3␤3􏿽xE2􏿽x90
17:36 envi left
thundergnat Hmm SO3 says those should be equivalent. 17:36
takadonet looks at TimToady 17:37
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colomon None of the automatic , * extension stuff is implemented in Rakudo yet, is it? 17:39
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thundergnat Possibly not. It doesn't work as specced yet at least. 17:40
[Coke] masak; (this week) those are a HUGE PITA to produce. 17:42
and Planet Perl Six gives me about 1/2 of what TWIP did. 17:43
moral: blog more?\
moritz_ would like an interface to submit individual posts from foreign blogs to planetsix 17:44
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[Coke] moritz_: Low tech: create a new blog that just refers to those articles you wish to republish. 17:48
17:48 wes_ joined
[Coke] allison's blog often has entries that are just pointers to other articles. 17:49
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smash colomon: go to gil.di.uminho.pt/users/smash/rakudo-bench.html, scroll down to end of page, you have a link to the script that i use to run the benchmarks 18:17
colomon: a very simple script
18:19 dakkar left
tadzik smash: why so many __underscores in the code? 18:19
[Coke] I read that as "Private" 18:21
smash tadzik: auxiliary functions that could be implemented in different ways
and most probably aren't done in the best way
and should be replaced
colomon \o/ 18:22
smash the main purpose was to being able to add new scripts or rakudo versions without having to change the script 18:23
s/add new scripts/add new benchmark scripts/
PerlJam smash: where's the standard deviation? ;) 18:26
smash PerlJam: somewhere in my TODO list ;)
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thundergnat rakudo: my ($a, $b); say $a ~= 'yay! ', $b = $b ~ 'oh noez!'; # why the difference? Can't find a relevant ticket in RT 18:39
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«yay! Any()oh noez!␤»
tadzik oh funny 18:40
rakudo: my $b; $b.Str.perl.say
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«"Any()<0x61740b0>"␤»
tadzik that's fixable, no?
thundergnat I can deal with undefined in sring context being Any(), I was just asking why ~= seems to suppress it. 18:43
Though personally I would prefer '' to Any()
colomon huh
tadzik same here
colomon rakudo: my $b; $b.Str.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Str()␤»
colomon rakudo: my $b; $b.Str.perl.say
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«"Any()<0x619c0b0>"␤»
colomon that seems like a bug, no? 18:44
rakudo: my $b; $b.Rat.WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Method 'Rat' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/k69x95Ldv0␤»
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colomon #phasers T-3 minutes 18:57
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dalek : 78644f2 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/topic-brainstorming:
[advent] reorganize brainstorm file: move already-used topic to own section
 19:40
: cd6a87e | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/different-names-for-different-things.pod:
[advent] add a post about flip/reverse/invert
moritz_ masak: see latest push, comments welcome
masak looks
masak changes the deplorable use.perl link to strangelyconsistent.org instead 19:41
strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-ta...edy-on-irc
daxim oooo bubbles 19:42
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masak yes, sorry about those :) 19:42
daxim this web software looks homegrown
masak it's Perl 6 software :)
daxim まさか 19:43
masak oh yes.
and it wasn't even that hard to build.
I'll release it any day now.
(but it's not the Big Announcement) :) 19:44
tylercurtis "Big Announcement"?
masak yes. three days to go.
19:44 plobsing left
tylercurtis Good {now}, #perl6. 19:44
masak tylercurtis: oh hai
on Friday, there'll be a Big Announcement, by me. on my blog.
about something Perl 6-related. 19:45
moritz_ "that's it, I quit"
diakopter heh
masak まさか
daxim hey, that's my catchphrase
masak ;)
daxim rate this announcement on a sliding scale, where time-travel debugging is considered "cool"
masak moritz_: I'd like to add, at the end, the suggested general idiom for actually inverting a hash. it's not obvious. 19:46
daxim: I'm not at liberty to give you such a measure. all I can tell you is that I know what it is, and *I'm* excited :) 19:47
daxim alright
daxim subscribes the feed
masak :D 19:49
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sorear good * #perl6 20:01
masak \o
dalek : 928c322 | masak++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/different-names-for-different-things.pod:
[advent] changed URL to a cuter blog

Same content, but nicer to look at.
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sorear masak: it's not "invert %hash"? 20:17
masak sorear: well, yes. but you're also supposed to .push the result of that onto the new hash. 20:18
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dalek : 99c3194 | masak++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/articles/different-names-for-different-things.pod:
[advent] added .invert use case
 20:20
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moritz_ masak: should we volunteer for Thursday? 20:26
masak sure, why not? 20:30
at least when we have ascertained that we're not preventing someone else from volunteering :) 20:31
moritz_ well, I've been asking for volunteers all day
masak the lurkers are inattentive today... :)
moritz_ still 10 open slots 20:32
PerlJam I'd like to see an advent post from TimToady if he is willing.
dalek : ab95c80 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2010/ (2 files):
[advent] volunteer us for Dec 09
 20:33
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moritz_ std: my $ 20:43
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
20:43 daxim left
masak std: my ($, $, $, $, @, %, &) 20:43
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
moritz_ std: OUTER::$x 20:44
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/Gm5Dn3Vd8F line 1:␤------> OUTER::⏏$x␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ statement modifier loop␤Parse
..failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
masak $OUTER::x
rokoteko how far implemented are the feed operators? 20:46
jnthn In Rakudo, they're pretty basic at the moment.
rokoteko rakudo: my @array = <a, b, c, d>; my @src = 0, 1, 2, 3; @src ==> @array[@(*)] ==> my @dest; @dest.perl.say
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«too many positional arguments: 3 passed, 3 expected␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
rokoteko jnthn: ok.
jnthn Right, the @(*) target syntax isn't yet done.
Do put it into perspective, what we have now was written in about an hour. :) 20:47
*To
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sorear rakudo: my @array = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; my $sl = [1,2,3]; say @array[~$sl] 20:54
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«2␤»
sorear rakudo: my @array = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; my $sl = [1,2,3]; say @array[$sl]
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«234␤»
TimToady that seems kinda bogus 20:55
I would expect it to say 4 20:56
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....kup_tablet
TimToady rakudo: my @array = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; my $sl = [1,2,3]; say @array[+$sl]
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«4␤»
TimToady like that
jnthn is surprised that is flatterning in there.
er, flattening. 20:57
sorear TimToady: rakudo decides whether to slice or index based on $index ~~ Positional
jnthn oh
TimToady flatterning will get you knowwhere
jnthn It's not about flattening.
sorear: Right.
Which makes sense I guess...
tylercurtis rakudo: say ~[1, 2, 3];
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
tylercurtis rakudo: say +~[1, 2, 3]
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1␤»
sorear I am wondering if I can get away with using the list flag instead
20:58 jferrero left
sorear so @foo[@array] slices but @foo[$array] won't necessarily 20:58
TimToady I don't want list contexts to appear to be flattening $ vars
jnthn TimToady: Aye, though here it looks more like it's about multi-dispatch semantics than context. 20:59
TimToady: I suspect that the signature is @slice
sorear yes
which is a Positional constraint 21:00
jnthn Right.
TimToady well, it's a hack around the fact that rakudo doesn't actually do lol yet
jnthn We do omg and wtf quite well, though. :P
TimToady in @a[foo;bar;baz] the dimensions are supposed to be in list context
which means @a[@b] should flatten, and @a[$b] never should 21:01
sorear Should @a[$b] and @a[$b,] be the same? 21:02
TimToady yes
both are slices of one element
sorear What does '@a[0] = 1,2,3' do? 21:03
Assign 1 to @a[0] and throw away 2,3?
sorear had been thinkinging that @a[0,] = ... was list assignment and @a[0] = ... was scalar 21:05
much as $a, = ... is list assignement and $a = ... is scalar
PerlJam $a, = ... looks like some sort of error to me. 21:07
masak std: $a, = ...
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/F9RgxBS5AW line 1:␤------> $a⏏, = ...␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/F9RgxBS5AW line 1:␤------> $a, ⏏= ...␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01
..120m…
masak std: my $a; $a, = ...
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/h3m2nOYaYe line 1:␤------> my $a; $a, ⏏= ...␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
masak PerlJam: you're right. 21:08
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tylercurtis sorear: According to S04, "However, anything more complicated than that (including parentheses and subscripted expressions) forces parsing as list assignment instead." 21:11
where that refers to a scalar variable with optional traits, declarators, and type constraints.
TimToady sorear: back in the pugs heyday we used to try to figure out whether there was only one container on the left, and it turned into madness, so @a[0] = is now always list assignment
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ock_tablet 21:12
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tadzik hey, is someone rich of time and ideas? 21:16
sorear tylercurtis: I think parsing as a list assignment and executing as a list assignment are two different thngs
TimToady it's like the ... $endpoint decision; a little less dwimmy in some cases, but much much easier to explain
tadzik I'm afraid that if I'll be able to publish something tomorrow, it'll come up after 20:00 or something 21:17
PerlJam tadzik: that's okay.
21:17 icwiener left
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet 21:18
tadzik PerlJam: If I'll make it. I'm terribly tired, and have 3 Big Things for the Uni on Thursday
sorear TimToady: if $obj.attribute = 5; is list assignment, how does it execute? 21:19
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sorear TimToady: does it put 5 into flattening list context, then assign the first value out to the attribute? 21:20
tadzik but if late hours are ok, then I'm okay as well
thundergnat rakudo: say 0 || 0 || 1; say 0 || || 1; # O_o perhaps related to rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=72828 ?
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«1␤Capture()<0x77dd630>␤»
thundergnat rakudo say 0 |||| 1; 21:21
duh 21:22
rakudo: say 0 |||| 1;
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«Capture()<0x6b099d0>␤»
thundergnat std: 0 |||| 1; 21:23
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
thundergnat O_o 21:24
flussence wtf?
jnthn thundergnat: prefix:<|> 21:25
Is how capture formed.
PerlJam it would really help if there were something that parenthesized expressions I t hink
sorear std: ||0 21:26
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
sorear std: 1 ~~~~ 0
p6eval std a194beb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Expecting a term, but found either infix ~~ or redundant prefix ~␤ (to suppress this message, please use space between ~ ~) at /tmp/VQjCJMBuMu line 1:␤------> 1 ~~~~⏏ 0␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
PerlJam rakudo: say 0 +-+-+-+ 1 21:27
p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«-1␤»
PerlJam (not at all intuitive :)
sorear niecza: say 0 +-+-+-+ 1
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«-1␤»
sorear who says p6 sucks for obfu? 21:28
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TimToady sorear: it gives the list to whatever container was returned by the method call, and the container decides how many things to take off the list 21:33
p6 doesn't suck at obfu, it is relatively (compared to P5) suckier at golf 21:34
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sorear I see 21:35
TimToady ...said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw. 21:36
sorear I have seen inconsistant statements about ($x,) === $x
TimToady === doesn't do lists
masak but it's not syntactically illegal, is it? 21:37
TimToady it's fine syntactically, but unless $x happens to contain its own outer parcel, it'll be always be false 21:38
sorear wanted: unambiguous metasyntactic equality operator
put another way, after my $x; my @a; @a[0] := $x; is @a[0] ($x,) or $x ? 21:39
you called it a one-element slice earlier
TimToady for assignment, not for binding 21:40
masak how can I make $x contain its own outer parcel? :)
TimToady beats me
but you can preannounce it if you like 21:41
masak ouch :)
TimToady: maybe I'll tell everyone except you on Friday... :P
TimToady anyway, after @a[0] := $x, it is certainly the case that @a[0] === $x 21:42
and @a[0] =:= $x should also be true, methinks 21:43
sorear so slicing should behave like &return and only create a parcel if !=1 element is requested?
TimToady I believe so 21:44
and if you can prove it at compile time, you can get rid of the list altogether
bypassing the slicer
.[$x] should be considered sufficient proof, hence my expectation of 4 above 21:45
sorear wonders 21:46
niecza: my @a = 1,2,3,4,5; say @a[[1,2,3]] 21:47
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«4␤»
sorear er
niecza: my @a = 1,2,3,4,5; say @a[~[1,2,3]]
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Numeric in class Str␤ at line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤ at line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 5)␤ at line 992 (SAFE G1034ANONC @ 1)␤ at line 992 (SAFE module-SAFE @ 29)␤ at line 992 (SAFE mainline @ 1)␤ at line 0 (boot @ 1)␤ at line
..0 (Ex…
TimToady sugoi
sorear (1) terible, dreadful (2) amazing, great 21:48
what a word.
21:49 ruoso left
diakopter "awesome" 21:50
tadzik phenny: "sugoi"?
phenny tadzik: "sugoi" (fil to en, translate.google.com)
sorear tadzik: 3: 凄い （すごい） (adj-i) (1) (uk) terrible; dreadful; (2) amazing (e.g.of 21:51
strength); great (e.g. of skills); wonderful; terrific; (3) to a great extent; vast(in
numbers); (P)
from the xjdic file
21:51 thundergnat left
tadzik interesting 21:52
jdv79 so, i use autodie; then use autodie qw(read); because my class defined a read sub. and it still gets wiped out. 21:53
wrong perl chan. p5. sorry.
21:56 mtk left
sorear TimToady: so, in my $x = [], there is an Array object and a Scalar object. You hold them to be fundamentally the same sort of thing? 21:58
TimToady not sure what you're asking 22:03
dalek osystem: 230187c | (Timothy Totten)++ | projects.list:
Removed perlite6, as the project has been deleted.
22:07 jfried left
diakopter nqp: say $/ 22:09
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say $/"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 635 (src/cheats/hll-compiler.pir:206)␤»
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diakopter nqp: say($/) 22:09
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Symbol '$/' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:109)␤»
diakopter niecza: say($/)
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«␤»
diakopter niecza: say($/[0]) 22:10
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«␤»
diakopter niecza: say(+$/)
p6eval niecza f30c13c: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method Numeric in class Any␤ at line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤ at line 0 (MAIN mainline @ 0)␤ at line 992 (SAFE G1034ANONC @ 1)␤ at line 992 (SAFE module-SAFE @ 29)␤ at line 992 (SAFE mainline @ 1)␤ at line 0 (boot @ 1)␤ at line
..0 (Ex…
diakopter sorear: where does it declare $/
(apparently it doesn't, in nqp)
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sorear diakopter: $/ is like a contextual; it doesn't need to be declared 22:21
at runtime $/ searches up the outer stack for the first frame with a most recent regex match 22:22
TimToady: in an expression of the form @a ,= @b, how does &infix_postfix_meta_operator:<=> know what kind of assignment to do? 22:23
For that matter, what kind of assignment does &infix:<=>(@a, @b) do? 22:24
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sorear How does &infix:<=>(@array[0], (1, 2)) know to assign only one value, while &infix:<=>($x, (1, 2)) assigns the whole parcel? 22:25
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sorear out 22:31
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masak miyagawa++ makes the same observation moritz_ did once :) -- twitter.com/miyagawa/status/12275270752935936 22:47
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BinGOs strangely mesmerising background he has there. 23:08
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masak tell me a bit about the initial values of typed dimensionalized arrays. 23:44
my Int @a[10; 10]; # is it filled with Int? 23:45
my int @a[10; 10]; # is it filled with 0?
lichtkind is the rakudo REPL supposed to end on exception? 23:49
masak no, it's not. it's a bug, it's known, and it's been reported several times by several people.
lichtkind allright
masak followup question to those above: would it be better for 'my Int @a[10; 10]' to be filled with 0? if not, what's the shortest way to fill such an array with zeroes? 23:52
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