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Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
lue xenoterracide: there's no such bad practice sentiment for P6 modules AFAIK. Even if, just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean no-one will do it :) 00:00
FROGGS: ☺ 00:01
xenoterracide maybe a % modules hash would fix it though, then you see if you already have loaded a module, however that'd have to work otherwise
me not being all that familiar with this multi authority / version thought
FROGGS we have a %loaded_modules hash in our module loader 00:02
xenoterracide so if you define something within the scope it's seen and doesn't try to laod it
from an external file
lue I think that ("one class per file" & "class name matches relative path + basename") matches a very small number of modules, both theoretically and practically.
(or it will, in the asymptotic future)
FROGGS the path won't matter in future 00:03
xenoterracide lue: right but then how does use work? I'm not sure I see the problems this creates that use doesn't have a solution for?
FROGGS it is all about the module name and the things which are inside
and you only import the stuff you request
xenoterracide that brings another thought I had 00:04
can you have a module that exports a simple class name? or the like?
FROGGS so "use Foo" will locate a comp unit, and if there is a Foo package inside, it will import from it
(and it will ignore the rest)
lue xenoterracide: my point is that implicitly loading Foo/Bar.pm6 when trying class Baz is Foo::Bar isn't a very useful feature.
xenoterracide module MyAppliction::Model { class User is export { } } ?
or the like
FROGGS I think the MyAppliction::Model::User is already visible without the "is export", because it is not my-scoped 00:05
lue p: module Foo::Bar { class Baz { method OK { say "hi" } }; Foo::Bar::Baz.OK
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/PLfMkGY9iK␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}' ␤at /tmp/PLfMkGY9iK:1␤------> thod OK { say "hi" } }; Foo::Bar::Baz.OK⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any …»
xenoterracide lue: eh, I'm just all about reducing boilerplate where possible, I know in p5 I get annoyed at having to rename classes in 3 places because I renamed a namespace 00:06
lue p: module Foo::Bar { class Baz { method OK { say "hi" } } }; Foo::Bar::Baz.OK
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«hi␤»
00:06 baest joined
xenoterracide FROGGS: I'm more wondering if I can simplify to just using an object name User 00:06
lue xenoterracide: modules != classes, at least not in Perl 6.
xenoterracide lue: I know that
lue that's why i object to the idea.
00:07 go|dfish left
FROGGS xenoterracide: you might want to use an EXPORT sub in the comp unit then... 00:07
xenoterracide FROGGS: sounds evil
FROGGS xenoterracide: that sounds as evil as en import sub in P5 :o)
lue There's no guarantee class Foo::Bar exists in module Foo::Bar. Adding a feature in Perl 6 that assumes this is wrong. Allowing you to get away with not declaring a thing /somehow/ additionally makes it doubly wrong :) 00:08
xenoterracide well assuming I'm exporting a sub that hides' the class name
FROGGS but it would look like: sub EXPORT(|) { my %e; %e<User> := MyAppliction::Model::User; %e }
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xenoterracide wouldn't class Foo::Bar in module Foo::Bar be Foo::Bar::Foo::Bar ? 00:09
FROGGS lue: if it loads a comp unit and there is no Foo::Bar that helps to solve the trait, it would explode at compile time 00:10
xenoterracide: I think so
p: module Foo::Bar { class Foo::Bar { } }; say GLOBAL:: 00:11
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«("Foo" => Foo).hash␤»
FROGGS p: module Foo::Bar { class Foo::Bar { } }; say GLOBAL::Foo::Bar::
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
FROGGS k, it is smart :o)
lue FROGGS: yes, as it should. xenoterracide's suggestion would be to try and find the module that class is in before exploding (i.e. not having use The::Class::Is::Here; and having the compiler figure out and loading that module if a class from it is used.) 00:12
FROGGS lue: I don't see a problem with that 00:13
xenoterracide I'm having 2 different idea's
lue use A::B; class D is C { }; === class D is C { }; , essentially.
FROGGS it would just do two extra steps... need Foo::Bar and import Foo::Bar
xenoterracide idea one is that class Foo does Bar; is exactly the same as use Bar; class Foo does Bar; (except Bar should not be "globally scoped" or in that outer scope) 00:14
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lue FROGGS: but how would P6 find the module containing the class? 00:14
FROGGS lue: exactly like it does with a use statement
lue FROGGS: no, use finds a module, from which classes can be read. I'm talking about find_module(:with_class<Foo::Bar>) 00:15
FROGGS lue: there is no such thing
xenoterracide 2) module MyApp::Model { class User is export } module MyApp::Controller { use MyApp::Model :all User.new } or some such
lue FROGGS: exactly!
FROGGS lue: so you say "use Foo; Foo.new" is illegal too?
00:16 hoverboard is now known as CLIENTPOLICE
lue My point is that trying to find the right class from a pool of indefinite numbers of modules is not useful. 00:16
00:16 CLIENTPOLICE is now known as hoverboard
FROGGS lue: it would not try to find a class like "use Foo" does not try to find a class 00:16
lue FROGGS: I'm picturing a ~/.perl6/<ver>/lib/ with hundreds of modules. Find me the right Foo::Bar used in the statement class Baz is Foo::Bar 00:17
FROGGS nothing tries to find a class here --> "use Foo; Foo.new"
but we (the user) know that the Foo "module" provides a Foo class, so we can type a "Foo.new" afterwards 00:18
lue FROGGS: xenoterracide's original suggestion was this: consider "class A is B" --- if there is no class B in the current compunit, load module B
FROGGS which is the same for "Foo does Bar", we know that there is a "module" Bar that Foo can do
lue: correct
lue ? does works on roles, not modules 00:19
FROGGS true
lue (the genericest term is "package", IIRC)
xenoterracide would work on classes to
too*
should not import anything
well
lue tries to surpass the limitations of one-line-at-a-time IRC
xenoterracide anything additional
FROGGS lue: "Foo does Bar" should only locate a comp unit that under the name Bar, then it would import from it like the use statement does 00:20
and if there happends to be a Bar role in it, we would be happy 00:21
that is exactly what "use Bar; Foo does Bar" does
lue FROGGS: give me a minute, I'm writing a gist to better demonstrate the issues.
FROGGS the "use Bar" does not search for a role either
lue FROGGS: how else would you avoid unnecessarily loading modules in "Foo does Bar" situations? 00:23
FROGGS unnecessarily? it would only load it once 00:24
and it would be satisfied if there is a role Bar after that or it would explode nicely
xenoterracide searching % inc and the % modules or whatever 00:25
before doing things
FROGGS .oO( loaded comp unit Bar does not provide a role Bar needed in "Foo does Bar⏏" )
xenoterracide: that is the ModuleLoader's job
xenoterracide: we don't need to invent anything at that point since it does all that 00:26
xenoterracide FROGGS: well yeah, I assumed so, I think I was trying to just point out to lue that I believe that is how it does that... 00:27
and of course if it wasn't found it'd die the same way use does or the same way a missing symbol or whatever does
if you try to do Foo does Bar without importing Bar now
lue FROGGS, xenoterracide: gist.github.com/lue/8d1bed521dd48b1a6dad 00:28
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lue (updated for formatting) 00:29
FROGGS lue: if you do a "use Baz; Foo is Bar { }" you will be lost too
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xenoterracide lue: what is the guarantee if I do use Bar; that module Bar contains a class Bar? 00:30
lue FROGGS: I think you meant use Bar there. And in that case, you'd know exactly what things your loading into your compunit.
FROGGS lue: 1) example "use Bar; Foo is Bar", if there is no Bar in Bar, you are lost too
lue: no, I dont 00:31
lue xenoterracide: There isn't. /You have to know ahead of time, that's why implicit loading doesn't work/!
00:32 hoverboard left
xenoterracide no I don't understand the behavior is the same 00:32
FROGGS lue: 3) to make S11 work, the installed modules provide a list of namespaces, that is what we use when we hit a use statement, and this is what we could use here
xenoterracide there's no guarantee the programmer isn't an idiot and tried to load some bullshit
FROGGS correct 00:33
you can use a package and hope there is a role with that name in it, and you can do a module an pray that there a role is in there...
if you guesses wrong, it will explode in the same way 00:34
xenoterracide lue: I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how these problems aren't either already there or already addressed
FROGGS (because the symbol you want to do is unknown)
lue Mrf. Implicit loading demands an organizational scheme that many modules don't comply with, and there *will* be side effects if the scheme isn't complied with by the desired object's module. 00:35
xenoterracide: The problem is that the programmer shouldn't have to contend with "waitaminute, Perl 6 just /assumed/ I forgot a use statement?"
Implicit loading could work in C<no strict> I'll admit (in line with it allowing C<$a = 42> as a declaration), but /certainly/ not in the default modes. 00:36
xenoterracide perl6 sometimes assumes a lot I think? also if it's understood that (and Moose does this) that the does/is/etc implies an attempt to import if not already, then, it'll be known it tries to import
FROGGS lue: I am not fond of implicit loading either, but I can't agree to the points you made (in the gist for example)
xenoterracide FROGGS: I'd be curious to know why you aren't fond of it? 00:37
I mean maybe there's some downside that I've never thought of
FROGGS xenoterracide: I'm not sure.... one thing is that we have statements for loading packages... 00:38
if we do autoloading we would need to do it in more places
basically everytime you use a bare name :P
lue FROGGS: whatever similarities implicit loading shares with "use", IL adds the nice feature of "the programmer has *no control* over whether or not this happens, and *no control* over what gets loaded".
xenoterracide FROGGS: I'm not sure I'd say in all places, just obvious ones... (presumably does and is would also attempt to load from what I've seen) 00:39
hmm
FROGGS lue: you have exactly the same control, you give it a name, and it starts searching for such a comp unit... and that name is identical in the use statement to the trait
lue class Foo is Bar; sans IL will tell me I messed up if I mean 'Baz'. with IL that's not necessarily true. 00:40
FROGGS: unless 'use strict' turns off IL, and 'no strict' turns it on, you really *don't* have control over it. 00:41
FROGGS lue: how does it tell that you messed up?
lue r: class Baz { }; class Foo is Bar { }
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/4jV7EP48C9␤'Foo' cannot inherit from 'Bar' because it is unknown.␤Did you mean one of these?␤ 'Bag'␤ 'Baz'␤␤at /tmp/4jV7EP48C9:1␤------> ␤»
FROGGS ahh, that one 00:42
I've read a "use Baz; class Foo is Bar { }" there
xenoterracide that's interesting, but why would the error be different?
FROGGS lue: yes, I agree on this one
xenoterracide why would IL not give that error? 00:43
FROGGS the thing is, in one example you intended to load a module but not in the other
lue xenoterracide: module Bar could have a class Bar
FROGGS and then you would just inherit from a class Bar you don't even know :o) 00:44
00:44 Ben_Goldberg is now known as BenGoldberg
xenoterracide wouldn't I have to do Class Foo is Bar::Bar then? 00:44
FROGGS no
lue FROGGS: I don't see the 'is' trait and think 'loads modules', which is what IL thinks.
FROGGS we've seen that it does not double up names... and it would never do that with comp unit names, because these are kinda invisible after loading 00:45
xenoterracide module Bar { class Bar {} role Bar {} } < is this legal?
FROGGS dont think so
xenoterracide r: module Bar { class Bar {} role Bar {} }
FROGGS p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar {} } < is this legal?
p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar {} }# < is this legal?
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/1Eva_DFg_u␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/1Eva_DFg_u:1␤------> module Bar { class Bar {} ⏏role Bar {} }␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ horizontal…»
rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/0jeGX4ODiz␤Redeclaration of symbol Bar␤at /tmp/0jeGX4ODiz:1␤------> module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar ⏏{} } < is this legal?␤ expecting any of:␤ statemen…»
rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/CxtE6SXXG3␤Redeclaration of symbol Bar␤at /tmp/CxtE6SXXG3:1␤------> module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar ⏏{} }# < is this legal?␤ expecting any of:␤ stateme…» 00:46
FROGGS redecl
lue and once again, basing IL's enabled-ness on the use/no-ness of 'strict' would be fine with me (though I object to the concept in general).
FROGGS p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar {} }; say GLOBAL::
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/Ve7lCxXUXM␤Redeclaration of symbol Bar␤at /tmp/Ve7lCxXUXM:1␤------> module Bar { class Bar {}; role Bar ⏏{} }; say GLOBAL::␤ expecting any of:␤ statement l…»
FROGGS p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Baz {} }; say GLOBAL::
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«("Bar" => Bar).hash␤»
FROGGS p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Baz {} }; say GLOBAL::BAR::
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
FROGGS p: module Bar { class Bar {}; role Baz {} }; say GLOBAL::Bar::
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«("Bar" => Bar, "Baz" => Baz).hash␤»
FROGGS there is a Bar::Bar
p: module Bar { class Bar {} }; say GLOBAL::Bar:: 00:47
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«("Bar" => Bar).hash␤»
lue I vehemently object to the assumption of sloppyness when I'm using strict, and since no-one clarified if it happens during 'use strict', it felt like a 'always on' proposal.
xenoterracide that was expected, but would you end up being able o have Foo extend just Bar then?
lue (and perhaps I object to the concept in general because I never explicitly 'no strict' ☺)
xenoterracide lue: is there a use strict in p6? I thought I once read some objection to that
lue xenoterracide: there is, but it's on by default in most places, save for the perl6 -e IIRC 00:48
FROGGS xenoterracide: strict is always on except -e
and if you do: "6; $x = 42" the 6 would turn on lax mode too
lue IL fits perfectly with 'no strict', in my view. Just not 'use strict' :) 00:49
FROGGS sure
lue That way I can object to IL and solve my issue by not doing 'no strict' :) .
FROGGS :o)
xenoterracide dunno if p6 has the concept of feature, but I think I'd prefer the other way `no feature 'IL'` or whatever, it seems like, a "probably does the right thing most of the time" feature, IMO 00:50
because I'm lazy
and I'd rather explicitly turn off features
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xenoterracide than enable them 00:50
depending on the feature
lue xenoterracide: I just lumped it with strict because it's soooo similar to $a = 42; in nature
xenoterracide I don't know if I agree with that
lue but there could be an IL pragma, by default 'no IL' 00:51
xenoterracide I disagree with disabled by default in this case
it would lose most appeal
lue xenoterracide: I'm sure there are some features you'd rather not have enabled by default :)
xenoterracide well some
but p5 has turned into this, turn on everything modern
boilerplate fest 00:52
I want to remove useless boilerplate
lue xenoterracide: I think IL has too many potential side-effects to leave it on by default.
xenoterracide lue: possibly, though seems like maybe let an implementation vet that. As mentioned Moose does it without too many problems, though apparently Class::Load's way of doing that had some less than good side effects, but that's something to do with Class::Load 00:53
lue if I somehow don't have a class Bar into my compunit, I'd much rather have class Foo is Bar break immediately, than to cause my code to behave in unexpected ways.
xenoterracide anyways, beating the horse 00:54
lue btw, I said "similar to $a = 42" because they both can wreak havoc if you're not careful.
(in addition to giving you the benefit of the doubt on not-yet-declared things) 00:55
summation of my view: if IL is turned off by 'use strict', I'm fine with it existing, despite my misgivings on the concept.
xenoterracide btw, I think that having more than one class/role/module per file is a bit like $a = 42, finding where it began becomes a problem 00:57
lue ? I'm not making the connection. 00:58
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lue It's very convenient to group small Grammar/Action combos in one file, for instance. 00:58
xenoterracide curious could one do something like class Foo does require('Bar'):: # however that's done, I need to make a note of the way you can do the require( ).new, because I know that owrks now 00:59
lue --dinner &
xenoterracide lue: well the thing I like about one package per file is it generally makes it easy to find the code I'm looking for
I have a module name, and the code is in a matching file 01:00
with lexical variables I always know where the variable began, with one module per "import statment" I always know where the module came from 01:01
I don't care if that import is done via use/require/is/does 01:02
I just want to know where it came from
it either better be in the current file, or the import should be obvious
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dalek ecs: bbebb37 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
remove <prior> rule

This is a low-gain feature that penalizes everyone.		 02:05
colomon TimToady++ 02:06
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colomon rakudo (parrot) build fails to produce a working perl6 for me on the smoke test machine. 02:45
Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/Perl6/Actions.nqp'
current instr.: '' pc 938 (src/gen/perl6.pir:332) (gen/parrot/main.nqp:58)
TimToady make clean? 02:46
colomon can try that
TimToady or p-clean
dalek ast: b1ac97a | larry++ | S (2 files):
remove tests for <prior>
 02:50
colomon make clean didn't help. 02:54
p-clean?
TimToady just a subset for parrot 02:56
colomon just blew away my rakudo directory. 02:57
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colomon TimToady++ # that did it 03:20
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BenGoldberg Does anyone know if it would be possible to port the following: perl.plover.com/obfuscated/solution.html to perl6? 03:29
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TimToady you could maybe do it with channels 03:41
(jvm only right now)
we're a bit weak on pipes and forks at the moment 03:42
but channels and start {} are much the same 03:43
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BenGoldberg std: sub infix:<foo> is assoc('list') { join ',', @_ }; say [Rfoo] 1..4 04:27
camelia std 4731beb: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 131m␤»
BenGoldberg rn: sub infix:<foo> is assoc('list') { join ',', @_ }; say [Rfoo] 1..4
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 4 but expected 2␤ in block at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:16558␤ in sub at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:16665␤ in block at /tmp/vgbOMbkp0q:1␤␤»
..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to ANON, used 2 of 4 positionals␤ at /tmp/lpSDJXBSiR line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2767 (reduceop @ 12) ␤ at /tmp/lpSDJXBSiR line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/n…»
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TimToady rn: sub infix:<foo> is equiv(&infix:<X>) { join ',', @_ }; say [Rfoo] 1..4 04:29
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/Ke38POvEUp␤Routine given to equiv does not appear to be an operator␤at /tmp/Ke38POvEUp:1␤------> ␤»
..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to ANON, used 2 of 4 positionals␤ at /tmp/kkWOZIvTjL line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2767 (reduceop @ 12) ␤ at /tmp/kkWOZIvTjL line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/n…»
TimToady rn: sub infix:<foo> is equiv(&infix:<X>) { '(' ~ @_.join(',') ~ , @_ }; say [foo] 1..4 04:30
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 04:31
..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead at /tmp/Zmk_hQvdxN line 1:␤------> quiv(&infix:<X>) { '(' ~ @_.join(',') ~ ⏏, @_ }; say [foo] 1..4␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/PD4GqIQKIc␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead␤at /tmp/PD4GqIQKIc:1␤------> uiv(&infix:<X>) { '(' ~ @_.join(',') ~ ,⏏ @_ }; say [foo] 1..4␤»
TimToady rn: sub infix:<foo> is equiv(&infix:<X>) { '(' ~ @_.join(',') ~ ')' }; say [foo] 1..4
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/CIY1QYI2dn␤Routine given to equiv does not appear to be an operator␤at /tmp/CIY1QYI2dn:1␤------> ␤»
..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(1,2,3,4)␤»
BenGoldberg n: sub infix:<foo> is equiv(&infix:<X>) { '(' ~ @_.join(',') ~ ')' }; say [Rfoo] 1..4 04:34
camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to ANON, used 2 of 4 positionals␤ at /tmp/lu6wgtIIlv line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2767 (reduceop @ 12) ␤ at /tmp/lu6wgtIIlv line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/n…»
BenGoldberg How do I test whether a specific operator "is assoc('list')" 04:35
In particular, whether Rfoo (when foo is assoc('list') is *also* assoc('list')... and what the prototype of Rfoo is (actually, I'm 99% certain that Rfoo's prototype is to take 2 positional parameters...) 04:37
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[Coke] BenGoldberg: I don't see a way to get that from the sub itself. 05:14
digging through: say (&infix:<+>).^methods.sort>>.Str.squish
I think you'd have to introspect the grammar.
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BAMbanda so how does one go from a newb to a mage? 06:23
strangelyconsistent.org/blog/perl-6-is-my-mmorpg
moritz BAMbanda: with lots of practise :-) 06:31
BAMbanda moritz, indeed. The humor and personality of the perl6 and perl community in general makes this language too hard to stay away from 06:32
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moritz \o/ 06:42
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masak suddenly resurfaces from celebrating Christmas 11:51
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masak TimToady++ # "burying the bones of naysayers and yaysayers alike" 11:59
that blog post was beautiful. 12:03
(too bad the first comment by some guy talks about "PERL7" as if that were a solution to anything) 12:04
masak reads moritz++' Day 23 post 12:05
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timotimo morning o/ 12:12
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masak timotimo! \o/ 12:17
moritz \o * 12:20
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timotimo should this work? 13:02
r: say "abc123" ~~ / <+alpha+ws>+ /
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«｢abc｣␤␤»
timotimo rakudo-parrot infiniloops locally, it seems
er. abc123 isn't the right string for that rule 13:03
r: say "abc abc abc" ~~ / <+alpha+ws>+ /
r: say "abc abc abc" ~~ / <+alpha+\s>+ /
r: say "abc abc abc" ~~ / <+alpha+[\s]>+ /
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c, rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 13:04
rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/B4buqhU5Or␤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' ␤at /tmp/B4buqhU5Or:1␤------> say "abc abc abc" ~~ / <+alpha+⏏\s>+ /␤ expecti…»
rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«｢abc abc abc｣␤␤»
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timotimo hm. now Nil.any_method returning nil becomes an itch i'd like to scratch :P 13:22
r: say (try Nil.ast) // "foo" 13:24
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«foo␤»
timotimo IMO, that shouldn't throw; probably the // operator causing it?
... wait what?
that fails locally :\
oh, i was wrong it seems :)( 13:25
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masak timotimo: I think <ws> will always loop infinitely if you quantify it with * or + (because it can match the empty string) 14:08
timotimo ah, right 14:10
masak you're not the first one around which that trap closes. 14:26
who*
timotimo i could go around and put round tuits that fit perfectly into power outlets on people's desks ... into them 14:28
masak .oO( these tuits are shocking! ) 14:31
timotimo oh damn 14:33
installing Rakudo::Debugger with panda is currently broken
and i have a grammar i want to debug
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masak why is it broken? 14:42
"installing module X in panda is broken" feels like it deserves its own issue tracker.
(probably panda's own)
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timotimo masak: it doesn't create a binary i could run 15:00
Rotwang Is there some portable way to create shared libs to be used from NativeCall? 15:02
I want to bundle c source altogether with my module. 15:03
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Rotwang the only sane thing I can think of is to use cmake/probably waf 15:03
any thoughts? 15:04
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timotimo Rotwang: no clue :( :( 15:15
Rotwang I'm leaning to cmake, but it sounds silly to add dependency on cmake to compile two c source files [; 15:16
timotimo r: my %payers = timo => 10, rotwang => 5, masak => 4, everyone => 10; say %payers{bag * (-) "everyone"}; 15:17
i want this to work
does it?
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
timotimo :\
p: my %h = a => 1, b => 2; %h{-> $thing { say $thing } };
camelia ( no output )
timotimo it doesn't call closures that get passed to postcircumfix:<{ }>? 15:18
that would be *so* neat, though
ah, doh 15:19
colomon isn't that a [ ] thing, not a { } thing?
timotimo it's trying to access %payers{"set(timo, rotwang, masak)"} 15:20
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TimToady wow, au++ translated Day 24 :) 16:24
dalek kudo-star-daily: 2d012be | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 16:29
rl6-roast-data: 02b29b3 | coke++ | / (3 files):
today (automated commit)
timotimo was there some progress into making method calls to Nil return Nil for non-found methods?
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TimToady don't recall seeing any 16:30
timotimo just does it 16:31
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timotimo if i've done it correctly, this would have been a tiny amount of code :) 16:33
hoping to find some test in roast now :P
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TimToady we've kinda let the backlinks from roast to specs rot a little 16:44
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moritz p: say Nil.blerg 17:12
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«No such method 'blerg' for invocant of type 'Nil'␤ in block at /tmp/To9nsAVl3t:1␤␤»
moritz should be as simple as Nil.^add_fallback(-> $, $ { True }, -> $, $, { -> |c { Nil } } ); 17:15
FROGGS s/simple/cryptic/ :o)
moritz well, it's MOP :-) 17:16
the first argument to add_falback is a closure that determines whether the fallback succeeds
FROGGS ahh
moritz and the second argument is a closure that return the actual method object 17:17
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masak au++ # pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2013/12/advent-ventures.html 17:55
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Rotwang is there some fancy way to check if string is not empty? 17:59
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Rotwang r: " ".trim ~~ /^$/ 18:04
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
( no output )
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Rotwang I'd got ｢｣ 18:04
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Rotwang U+FF62 and U+FF63 18:05
FROGGS p: say " ".trim ~~ /^$/
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«｢｣␤␤»
Rotwang what is it supposed to mean?
FROGGS that is what Match.gist shows you
braces that indicate a matched literal
err, parens 18:06
p: print " ".trim ~~ /^$/
camelia ( no output )
Rotwang I see
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Rotwang ok, thanks 18:07
although my console font doesn't have ｢｣ :C
FROGGS :/ 18:08
sad
Monospace++ 18:09
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timotimo now i think i also have to write candidates that do postcircumfix:<[ ]> and :<{ }> on Nil to return another Nil 18:49
because right now Nil.foo.bar.baz<quux>[12] gives (Any) whereas i think it should give Nil
TimToady +1 18:50
timotimo seems very easy, but i'm getting distracted by blinking things and nice people and music and everything 18:51
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dalek ecs: 49c25bf | larry++ | S02-bits.pod:
subscripts also map Nil --> Nil

This used to fall out of the fact that subscripts were methods, but they aren't anymore, so we have to make this explicit.		 18:56
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Rotwang can I return a value from macro? 19:01
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TimToady er, you *must* return a value from a macro :) 19:02
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Rotwang it is not obvious from: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2012/12/2...23-macros/ 19:04
(only resource I've found on macros [;)
TimToady perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Macros 19:07
Rotwang thanks 19:08
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japhb Who worked on the Rakudo implementation of #= (.WHY) comments? 19:29
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tadzik me 19:29
japhb tadzik: Is there any multi-line variant supported yet? And what about #| ?
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tadzik japhb: no, I tried to make it work, and for some reason I couldn't :( 19:30
japhb Awww. :-(
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psch am i underestimating the complexity for the tests needed for bugs like rt #76368? it seems to me many missing tests would simply try to call the invalid statement and verify the error message, wouldn't they? 19:33
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...l?id=76368
Rotwang I've just segfaulted rakudo with macros ;C 19:34
psch i guess i'm asking if these are low-hanging fruit people don't bother to implement because they're not interesting
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moritz psch: checking the error message is a bad approach, because the tests break when we improve the error message 19:35
psch: the proper approach is to throw exception objects of the right type, and test those
psch: see github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...ons/misc.t for many examples of how to do it right 19:36
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psch thanks moritz, i'll have a look 19:36
masak Rotwang: a macro returns a value, but the value can be Nil, and that (by convention) means "no AST".
moritz psch: unfortunately, that sometimes means that writing a good tests blocks on throwing the right exception in the first place
masak Rotwang: 'return;' returns Nil.
psch i see 19:37
Rotwang r: macro quux { quasi { my $foo = ""; $foo; }; }; constant bar = quux; 19:38
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
moritz p: try eval 'sub foo(Str) {}; foo 42 '; say $!.perl
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«X::AdHoc.new(payload => "CHECK FAILED:\nCalling 'foo' will never work with argument types (int) (line 1)\n Expected: :(Str )")␤»
masak submits rakudobug
(the 'constant' one) 19:39
Rotwang www.angelfoodcomic.com/wp-content/u...-doing.jpg
masak :) 19:40
r: macro x { quasi {} }; constant y = x 19:42
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
( no output )
masak r: macro x { quasi {} }; constant y = x; say "alive"
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak r: macro x { quasi { my $foo = ""; $foo } }; constant y = x; say "alive" 19:43
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
masak oh, this one is already reported...
r: macro x { quasi { my $foo = "" } }; constant y = x; say "alive"
camelia ( no output )
..rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
moritz j: say 42
camelia rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«42␤» 19:44
psch so the bug i linked would is blocked by a missing specific exception for "wrong argument type"
s/would//
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moritz yes 19:46
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masak huh, apparently not separately reported. 19:47
r: macro x { quasi { my $foo = "" } }; x; say "alive" 19:49
camelia rakudo-parrot 53c60c: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
..rakudo-jvm 53c60c: OUTPUT«java.lang.NullPointerException␤␤»
masak no, there it is. 19:50
Rotwang btw. is there a portable line ending "macro"/constant like std::endl in c++? 19:53
TimToady that's what \n is supposed to be; say \xA or so if you really want a linefeed 19:55
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Rotwang nice, thanks 19:56
TimToady that's how it was at the start, but subsequent history has obscured the fact that \n was name "newline" for a reason :) 19:57
*named 19:58
jeffreykegler I'd want to go back to the old docs, but I think ASCII "new line" meant a horizontal motion downward ... 20:00
that did not return to position zero. They were thinking of teletypes, which were slow. 20:01
So from that point of view the folks who insisted that logical lines end with CR-LF were following ASCII more strictly 20:02
Rotwang interesting, never thought of that 20:04
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raiph i've started a Rakudo contribution quest. "Make Rakudo's sort work with a keyextractor => comparator pair". questhub.io/realm/perl/quest/52bca7...e15d0000ca I'd like feedback on comments I've added to the quest, especially the comment titled "The Plan". Tia. 20:09
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TimToady there is no ASCII "newline", but yeah, linefeed was just vertical motion, and carriage return, like, returned the carriage to the left margin 20:18
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TimToady Unix was a bit unusual in abstracting a physical CRLF to \n "newline" 20:18
jeffreykegler__ Iy' 20:21
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jeffreykegler__ It's interesting that ASCII did not really have the abstract concept of logical lines -- the nearest thing was RS for record separator 20:22
But instead of use RS, Unix decided to give LF an promotion 20:23
TimToady was a bit of a design flaw to overload LF for that, in retrospect
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jeffreykegler_ and was mechanically hard on the teletype, so that you avoided them for speed and to save hardware replacement costs. 20:26
So there was good reason to separate CR and LF and to do clever things about avoided CR when you could do so
*avoiding 20:27
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TimToady not only that, but the tty driver had to pad with up to (iirc) 5 NUL chars, depending on how far the carriage had to travel 20:32
jeffreykegler_ That's right, now that you remind me, one of my early programming tasks was writing the logic for various TTY's and terminals ... 20:33
and we had tables that specified how many nulls each one required to do a CR 20:34
japhb Timbus: New Net--IRC PR waiting for you. :-)
Help system via introspection FTW
jeffreykegler_ the downside was major, IIRC ... specify too few nulls and the TTY would starting printing the new line before the actual physical return to position 0 20:35
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Rotwang does it make sense to list core modules as dependencies of your module? 21:45
it doesn't make sense that panda installs already available modules, imo 21:46
lue Rotwang: Only R* comes with core modules. People who use the compiler releases of Rakudo or git repos of a Perl 6 compiler won't necessarily have them. 21:51
.oO(I personally blame the ASCII standard for not implementing a specific newline character. Surely, some systems had space concerns over speed concerns?)
 21:53
colomon Rotwang: though arguably Panda should be smart enough to know they are available already....
Rotwang lue: I didn't think of that 21:54
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jnthn evening, #perl6 23:16
preflex jnthn: you have 1 new message. '/msg preflex messages' to read it.
jnthn Only one? Phew!
colomon jnthn: Have you finished everything yet? ;)
jnthn colomon: No, this glass still has whisky in it. 23:17
colomon jnthn++
colomon has not poured a glass for himself yet.
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segomos_ TimToady closing all kinds of issues on github 23:24
TimToady no, only the kind I have answers to :) 23:25
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dalek kudo/nom: d7bf821 | jonathan++ | src/core/Cursor.pm:
Remove <prior> implementation.

It was removed from the specification. No use in Star, likely no use elsewhere, so not worth a deprecation note.		 23:33
TimToady \o/ 23:36
lue (Waitaminute, there's was an old implementation of Perl 6 in the repo, and I didn't know about it‽) 23:38
s/'s//
timotimo \o/ 23:45
hey jnthn, nice to see you again :)
jnthn o/ :) 23:46
Just a short visit before sleep :)
But still, I managed a patch :)
timotimo i wish you a good night's rest :)
when can we expect tuits to be spent on moarvm by you? :) 23:47
nwc10++ # has been on fire finding really tricky problems
jnthn Well, I'll try and at least look over the nwc10++ patches O(tomorrow) :)
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jnthn I'm going to be doing family visiting/relaxing this next week. Flying home in a week's time, and will be properly back to things then :) 23:49
But suspect I'll be around a little more this week than last week. 23:50
timotimo i'm glad :) 23:54

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