»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by masak on 12 May 2015.
tony-o_ r: Proc::Async; 00:04
camelia ( no output )
..rakudo-jvm 2ec563: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Async'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
ugexe i was confused because it compiled fine. But I didnt realize there was a Proc object 00:05
tony-o_ weird 00:07
weird 00:08
oops
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skids m: sub f(*$f) { }; f(); # Not the way I'm given to interpret the spec. 00:39
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/JHnEFhQh7W␤Calling f() will never work with declared signature (Any $f)␤at /tmp/JHnEFhQh7W:1␤------> 3sub f(*$f) { }; 7⏏5f(); # Not the way I'm given to interpre␤»
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tony-o_ skids: ?? 00:58
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ugexe m: sub f(*@f) { }; f() 01:06
camelia ( no output )
ugexe m: sub f(*%f) { }; f()
camelia ( no output )
ugexe slurpy can take 0 arguments
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tony-o_ skids: was that in ref to a slurpy $_ ? 01:17
ugexe slurpy anything 01:18
skids Yes, the way I read it a slurpy $ should not be a mandatory parameter.
tony-o_ no i know your thing but skids comment about it ans the spec
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dalek ecs: a964d4b | hoelzro++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
Fix typo
 01:31
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TEttinger hmm. I'm not sure what quoting means in NQP, or perl in general. if I want to read in the match of one grammar rule, but not evaluate it, is there a standard way to do that? 03:21
lisp's single quote reader macro, as in '(1 2 3) or '(a b c) (where a b and c are not defined variables, it still won't evaluate them so it doesn't care) 03:22
I think quote_EXPR is something like this but I don't know if it means "like double quoted stuff" or "like a code quotation" or both 03:25
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TEttinger masak: when you get the chance, I'd like to talk to you about your 007 project 03:49
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dalek ecs: 2b0a478 | hoelzro++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
Fix typos
 04:27
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dalek c: c8c4cad | hoelzro++ | lib/Type/IO (2 files):
Document rename()
 04:55
c: 5f737bd | hoelzro++ | lib/Type/IO (2 files):
Document move()
c: d2313a5 | hoelzro++ | lib/Type/IO (2 files):
Document unlink()
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TimToady wow, finally caught up on backlog 05:32
yoleaux 23 Jun 2015 20:15Z <pmichaud> TimToady: in post-GLR, should arguments of cross/zip still flatten?
23 Jun 2015 23:10Z <[Coke]> TimToady: you ok with adding "is required" as a trait for attributes? 05:33
TimToady .tell pmichaud I'm fine with args to X/Z not flattening by default, I think, as well as circumfix:<[ ]> (but postcircumfix:<[ ]> should still be a list of flattened lists for multi-dim slicing) 05:35
yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to pmichaud.
TimToady .tell [Coke] I'm okay for adding it as a toy, but maybe we want the ! modifier as someone suggested for sugar
yoleaux TimToady: I'll pass your message to [Coke].
TimToady plans to drive 700 miles tomorrow, so had better sleep now... 05:36
zzz &
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[Tux] jnthn++, now that you fixed RT#124191 (YEAH!) I'd suggest RT#124298 for something difficult to fix :) 06:42
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=124191
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RabidGravy marnin 06:46
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tony-o_ finally got hiker up and running 07:07
Ven \o #perl6 07:13
tony-o_ yo 07:14
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masak the `!` modifier as sugar for `is required` is a really nice idea, the kind that I wish I'd thought of. :) 07:23
tony-o_ what is that going to look like?
masak (morning, #perl6) 07:24
tony-o_ sup masak
masak tony-o_: `has $.attr!;`, presumably
El_Che masak: it looks ruby-ish 07:29
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masak El_Che: oh? Ruby has something similar? 07:34
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El_Che masak: syntax-wise but not in that meaning 07:36
masak: they have .method, .method? and .method!
the latest returns nil if failure 07:37
TEttinger hey masak! I'm curious about your work on 007
do you do anything like macroexpansion? 07:38
masak El_Che: oh, that one. 07:40
El_Che: well, it's worth pointing out that Perl 6 already has the `$foo!` syntax in parameter lists. (also with the meaning "required")
El_Che "Let's fix Perl by adding more puntuation FTW!!" :)
masak El_Che: it's tastefully placed punctuation ;) 07:41
TEttinger: hi! I'd love to discuss 007!
TEttinger: yes, macro expansion works already, at about the same level as Rakudo.
TEttinger: very simple example at the bottom of masak.github.io/007/
TEttinger click
masak TEttinger: (I'm currently working in a branch to make it work for macro operators, too) 07:42
TEttinger: see github.com/masak/007/issues for all the crazy ideas that I/we haven't gotten to yet
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tony-o_ m: class A { method B { "B".say; } }; my $r = A.new; $r = &$r.B; $r.(); 07:46
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«B␤Cannot find method 'postcircumfix:<( )>'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/a8ke4v22Zc:1␤␤»
tony-o_ m: class A { method B { "B".say; } }; my $r = A.new; $r = &$r.B; $r();
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«B␤Cannot find method 'postcircumfix:<( )>'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/sJhQxo_PlT:1␤␤»
TEttinger masak, so as I understand it, your user-written macros return an AST, that then gets put in place of the macro's call positions at compile time?
(like common lisp) 07:47
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masak TEttinger: that is right. 07:53
m: macro foo { quasi { say "OH HAI" } }; foo()
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
TEttinger whaaaat it's in rakudo?
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RabidGravy unfortunately it's doesn't work soon enough for types, 07:57
m: macro blip { quasi { Int } }; my blip $a
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'blip' is not declared␤at /tmp/JkIzhQ9bzv:1␤------> 3macro blip { quasi { Int } }; my blip7⏏5 $a␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/JkIzhQ9bzv:1␤------> 3macro blip { quasi { Int } }; my7⏏5 blip $a␤␤»
RabidGravy which is a peculiar use case I have right now
tony-o_ what is the benefit of that?
masak TEttinger: it's in Rakudo, but part of the reason I'm doing 007 is to scout ahead, because I see we need something better in Rakudo. 07:58
TEttinger: see my blog for details. 07:59
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RabidGravy well, the actual code I want is "macro NInt { if $?BITS == 64 { quasi { num64 } } else { quasi { num32 } } }" 07:59
or something like that
moritz note that this won't work as a type constraint 08:00
marcos are only allowed in term position right now
masak S06 is a bit vague on this. 08:07
it only gives examples of macros in term position, and it only really makes sense for them the way they are presented to be in term position.
but practically everyone wants them to work in a wider context than that. 08:08
I don't have a good solution to that yet.
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mst expression macros are awesome 08:17
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masak mst: in RabidGravy's case, he wants to write something like `my NInt $foo;`, but the problem is that the parser is not looking for the macro `NInt` when it's about to parse a type. 08:22
mst ah
masak Lisp has an easier time there, because "everything is an expression" in some sense.
in Perl, not everything is.
mst that's interesting actually 08:23
their example sounds like it doesn't need macros
ShimmerFairy masak: question: do macros have a way of being classified by what type of thing they return? I wonder what it would be like if you could do things like macro foobar makes QAST::Something::Type { ... }
mst I mean, in perl5 I'd just alias it to one or the other
masak if I were to handwave a solution, I'd go "well, expressions are one of many contexts where macros could occur. we just need to catalogue and allow all the other contexts." 08:24
mst but the problem's quite fascinating
ShimmerFairy I've always found Lisp's "everything is an expression" to make it impossible to figure out what macros exactly _are_.
mst I prefer fexprs
macros are kinda restrictive, having access to the full power at runtime rather than compile time is way more fun 08:25
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moritz TIL that there aren't only sexprs, but also fexpres 08:26
are there also exprs for the other letters of the alphabet?
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RabidGravy the type thing is because you can't use an expression everywhere you might want a type so 08:27
m: $?BITS == 64 ?? num64 !! num32; my $nint⏏ $thing;
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Mlv5_MAYSG␤Variable '$?BITS' is not declared␤at /tmp/Mlv5_MAYSG:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$?BITS == 64 ?? num64 !! num32; my $nint␤»
RabidGravy won't fly either
except I failed to copy the entire line
m: use NativeCall; my $nint = $?BITS == 64 ?? num64 !! num32; my $nint $thing;
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/K_qUlmouF8␤Variable '$?BITS' is not declared␤at /tmp/K_qUlmouF8:1␤------> 3use NativeCall; my $nint = 7⏏5$?BITS == 64 ?? num64 !! num32; my $nint␤» 08:28
moritz m: constant myname = rand() < 0.5 ?? num64 : num32; my myname $x = 3e5;
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZHULYlLpRw␤Unsupported use of rand(); in Perl 6 please use rand␤at /tmp/ZHULYlLpRw:1␤------> 3constant myname = rand7⏏5() < 0.5 ?? num64 : num32; my myname $x ␤»
moritz m: constant myname = rand < 0.5 ?? num64 : num32; my myname $x = 3e5;
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/By7RH7fui7␤Please use !! rather than :␤at /tmp/By7RH7fui7:1␤------> 3constant myname = rand < 0.5 ?? num64 :7⏏5 num32; my myname $x = 3e5;␤ expecting any of:␤ colon pair␤»
moritz m: constant myname = rand < 0.5 ?? num64 !! num32; my myname $x = 3e5;
camelia ( no output )
TEttinger hm
RabidGravy ooh
will try that in the actual code later
ShimmerFairy masak: would it be correct to think of macros as just generators for various kinds of things? For some reason I want to think of C++ templates as kind of class/function macros, based on that "generator" definition.
RabidGravy right, now to finish this patio. Catch you all later 08:30
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[ptc] .tell hoelzro what is your opinion regarding the use of panda in Travis builds? Should we retain panda and use panda-test, or remove panda support and just use a prove incantation? 08:33
yoleaux [ptc]: I'll pass your message to hoelzro.
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itz non specific tz greeting 08:34
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moritz itz: it is always morning in UGT 08:41
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tadzik github.com/FourMan/4 this may amuse some of you :) 08:58
masak ShimmerFairy: "generate, analyze, typecheck" is the slogan, yes. 09:08
ShimmerFairy: see link about this in strangelyconsistent.org/blog/macros...long-break
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ShimmerFairy masak: btw, when writing C++ I've found that macros are nice for abstracting repetitive code. In particular implementing the basic arithmetic ops for a type (+-*/%), where the only change is the symbol for the operator. Can P6 macros take care of something like that currently? 09:13
something like macro classoper($op) { sub infix:<{{{$op}}}>($a, $b) { ... } } , or whatever the proper syntax is :P 09:14
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tadzik feels like there should be an easier way, like "does Numeric" 09:27
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smls
.oO( class Vector does Numeric { method ADD { ... }; ... } )
 09:28
masak's 007 looks interesting btw. Though of course requiring parens for function calls, is heresy... :P 09:29
ShimmerFairy You don't want to see my toy language then :P 09:30
smls I guess it's the price to pay for getting rif of sigils. 09:31
*rid
masak no, I could support listops, even without sigils.
it's just I don't feel it's worth the extra complexity.
smls when then you'd give up reliable TTIAR based errors?
masak also not a problem. Perl 6 has listops. 09:32
but yeah, there are some warts. I tried to solve them in another toy language of mine, Nugget.
like what does `foo;` mean?
and how do you refer to the function as a noun? 09:33
smls yeah
Though I must admit, the lack of sigils in itself doesn't bother me as much as it maybe should (as a Perl/Perl 6 advocate)... :P 09:34
In fact, there are times when I wonder if they still pull their weight in Perl 6. 09:35
now that the "..{EXPR}.." syntax has significantly reduced advantage regarding string interpolation
and the GLR seems to be significantly reducing their automatic flattening advantage 09:36
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masak I still like them, and I especially like how Perl 6 promises to fit "non-standard" data types into the $@%& model. 09:41
smls yeah, they're nice as syntactic sugar in variable declarations and routine signatures
my @foo; is nicer than my Positional foo = []; 09:42
Also, without sigila how would we have twigils :D 09:44
masak probably the way Ruby has them, as sigils.
smls heh, I suppose so
masak anyway, I figure if I/we can use 007 as a "playground", that might be the quickest path to finding out exactly how Perl 6 macros should look. 09:47
I'm really close to being able to do cool things with synthetic Qtree objects in 007. looking forward to when that works and is effortless.
it already made me realize that we need an "AST strengthening" operation/phase: github.com/masak/007/issues/5 09:48
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jaffa4 hi all 09:58
How can I match a string with different regex, continueing matching... or trying to match the same string if the previous regex fails? 09:59
JimmyZ m: say 'foobar' ~~ / 'fr' | 'foo '/ 10:00
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
JimmyZ m: say 'foobar' ~~ / 'fr' | 'foo'/
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤»
JimmyZ m: say 'foobar' ~~ / 'fr' || 'foo'/
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤»
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jaffa4 if regexes are separate 10:00
JimmyZ you can make it a token 10:01
two token, and combine it as a regex?
jaffa4 IN perl5, this was if ( $instr ~~ /\G([\"\'])/gc ) { 10:02
g+ c switches
JimmyZ knows nothing about it in perl5 10:03
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smls jaffa4: design.perl6.org/S05.html#line_318 10:09
jaffa4 thanks, smls 10:10
smls jaffa4: Though it is much less neede in Perl 6 10:11
because we can now get nested capture trees from a single match
so in your example, you may be able to simply do $instr ~~ /[.*? (<["']>)]+/ and have all matches in $0 10:12
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masak m: my $r1 = /foo/; my $r2 = /bar/; my $r = / $r1 | $r2 /; say "foo" ~~ $r; say "bar" ~~ $r; say "baz" ~~ $r 10:18
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤｢bar｣␤Nil␤»
masak m: my $r1 = /foo/; my $r2 = /bar/; my $r = / $r1 | $r2 /; say so "foo" ~~ $r; say so "bar" ~~ $r; say so "baz" ~~ $r
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«True␤True␤False␤»
masak jaffa4: maybe something like ^ ?
jaffa4 say so? 10:21
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jaffa4 Where can I see what modules are being translated? 10:23
or would be good to be translated?
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[ptc] jaffa4: have a look at the most wanted modules file: github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted...modules.md 10:24
jaffa4: there's a link to it from modules.perl6.org. 10:25
hope that helps :-)
masak jaffa4: `say so` means "I'm only interested in True/False, not the whole Match" 10:26
jaffa4: `so` is a lower-precedence version of `prefix:<?>` 10:27
jaffa4: just like `not` is of `prefix:<!>`
jaffa4 Does it force boolean context? 10:28
[ptc] tadzik: panda seems to only support installing modules that have source-url set in the metainfo, however some modules use only repo-url (e.g. Tardis) and some others use only support => source (e.g. Kains) 10:29
moritz repo-url is probably quite old, and should be deprecated
[ptc] tadzik: support => source is actually what's in the design documents, however isn't used much in metainfo in the ecosystem modules
tadzik [ptc]: yeah. repo-url is obsolete for ages, as for support.source... I don't know where it came from :D 10:30
[ptc] moritz: I think so too
moritz panda should support support => source and source-url
tadzik oh? I really don't like that then
[ptc] tadzik: so should I try implementing 'support => source' support in panda?
tadzik I don't think support section is an appropriate place for a mandatory field like that
smls jaffa4: That's one way to put it. Though Perl 6 has not actually have 'context' in the Perl 5 sense. I believe prefix:<?> and prefix:<so> simply calls .Bool on their argument, and return the result.
moritz doesn't care much where it came from, but that it's consistent
[ptc] agrees
jaffa4 then casting.... 10:31
tadzik [ptc]: I'd rather argue with spec a bit first :P
[ptc] tadzik: go for it :-)
tadzik So I need to get ahold of FRO<TAB><TAB> and lizmat
smls jaffa4: Yes. Though we don't always think of it that way; you'll still hear people say 10:32
"evaluate in boolean context"
[ptc] to clear that issue up would be really good, then I can patch the few modules that use repo-url, and those that use support => source
... and possibly submit patches to update the design docs
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tadzik I like your enthusiasm :) 10:34
[ptc] thanks!
tadzik hey, what's the name of that translation library that all projects use?
gnu thing, iirc
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[ptc] I'd really like to have most of the modules working and almost all of the deprecated code out of the modules before "Xmas" 10:35
DrForr Gettext?
tadzik yes, thank you
DrForr Who in their right mind uses mozzarella for a Caesar salad?... 10:37
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masak .oO( I said "Caesar salad", not "Käse salad" ) 10:38
sue somebody generous (i like mozzarella) 10:39
[ptc] .oO( "Ceasar salad"? "Yes, I see ze salad" ) 10:40
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itz Caesar salad? No I paid for mine 10:44
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mst beware the iceberg of march 10:49
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itz Greek Salad? No someone else paid for it 10:55
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[ptc] Waldorf salad? Sorry, we're completely out of Waldorf. 11:04
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moritz Geek Salad? 11:19
jaffa4 What should user as eval {} in Perl 6? 11:20
[ptc] Beware geeks bearing gifts
itz jaffa4: EVAL 11:21
moritz no, try
eval { } in perl 5 catches exception, nothing more
(well, a bit more, but not much more; no code evaling, at least) 11:22
jaffa4 Does try catch all?
moritz yes
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moritz except if you add a custom CATCH block that lets through some exceptions 11:22
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Begi Hello ! Do someone use Perl6 (Rakudo) with Windows 8 ? 11:24
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FROGGS Begi: I only used it on Win7 and Windows XP yet 11:30
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jaffa4 what is this Placeholder variable @_ may not be used here because the surrounding block takes no signature? 11:34
moritz jaffa4: it means exactly what it says 11:37
pro tip: don't try to program Perl 5 in Perl 6 11:38
jaffa4 sub process_this_file {
I have similar code, and I do get this error message 11:39
nwc10 I forget - is there a way to get any (obviously) unnamed arguments, if one calls that as process_this_file('foo', 'bar'); ?
itz I spent 30 mins this morning trying to program perl5 in perl6 before I spent the 5 mins reading the docs :)
jaffa4 moritz: I have similar code and I do not get this error message
moritz m: sub f() { return { @_ } } 11:40
camelia ( no output )
moritz m: sub f() { return -> { @_ } }
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Z5rzFzTf3I␤Placeholder variable '@_' cannot override existing signature␤at /tmp/Z5rzFzTf3I:1␤------> 3sub f() { return 7⏏5-> { @_ } }␤»
moritz jaffa4: then maybe show the code that produces the error
nwc10 m: -> { @_ }
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/I_s4D9maf0␤Placeholder variable '@_' cannot override existing signature␤at /tmp/I_s4D9maf0:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5-> { @_ }␤»
moritz m: sub f { return { @_ } }
camelia ( no output )
moritz m: { @_ } 11:41
camelia ( no output )
Begi FROGGS : When I launch my .pl file with Windows 8, I have this error : Bytecode stream shorter than header.... 11:42
jaffa4 moritz: gist.github.com/jaffa4/50d6cf69507335368fba
Begi I laaunch it with moar.exe 11:43
lizmat m: sub f() { return -> (*@_) { @_ } }
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS Begi: you should launch it with perl6 11:44
moritz jaffa4: which line number? 11:45
jaffa4 3546
you can see the error message if you run it with perl6-m 11:46
Begi FROOGS : perl6, what's the name of the file ? 11:47
jaffa4 moritz: I do not get an error for the sub only
Is there way to see what is surronding block? 11:48
moritz m: module Perl::Tidy; sub check_syntax { 11:49
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Y8pHnSPnEG␤Missing block␤at /tmp/Y8pHnSPnEG:1␤------> 3module Perl::Tidy; sub check_syntax {7⏏5<EOL>␤Saw 1 occurrence of deprecated code.␤========================================================…»
moritz m: module Perl::Tidy; sub check_syntax { @_ }
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«Saw 1 occurrence of deprecated code.␤================================================================================␤Semicolon form of 'module' without 'unit' seen at:␤ /tmp/5raVnvIrKM, line 1␤Deprecated since v2015.4, will be removed with releas…»
moritz jaffa4: dunno; but I'd recommend to use a proper signature instead
jaffa4 I get an error in that case too 11:50
moritz:
moritz jaffa4: I don't 11:51
I just get the deprecation warning
oh yes, I do 11:52
no, for a different sub
jaffa4 Which one did you modify? 11:54
I get variable truth is not declared
moritz jaffa4: I modified check_syntax 11:56
anyway, I currently don't have the time to wade through several thousand lines of half-converted Perl 5 11:57
my advise would just be write more 6-y code
jaffa4 I think the problem is , the compiler does not give enough information
it is a guessing game 11:58
moritz if you can boil it down to a minimal test case, you are free to submit it as a rakudo bug
though my suspicion is that if if you do reduce it to a minimal test case, you'll actually find your error in the process (likely incorrect nesting of scopes/packages/subs/whatever) 11:59
masak jaffa4: Rakudo used to give very little information in error messages. nowadays, it's much better. 12:00
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jaffa4 improving I can say 12:00
in this case, it is weird
moritz the boundary between "giving helpful error messages" and "garbage in => garbage out" is often fluid 12:01
masak jaffa4: if you have a case with too little information, that is something we're interested in fixing. so yes, please submit a minimal case that triggers your problem.
itz as a perl5 programmer I was pleasantly surprised by the helpful rakudo messages
masak jaffa4: but please make it minimal. I agree with moritz; it's hard to know whether it's you or the compiler that's confused until you've golfed it down to a small piece of code.
itz is it possible to reverse moarvm bytecode to source?
jaffa4 I saw many helpful ones but I stumbled into unhelpful one
masak itz: possible? yes.
itz: has someone actually done it? not that I know.
dalek kudo/nom: 8988d39 | lizmat++ | src/core/EnumMap.pm:
Remove deprecated scheduled for deletion
 12:03
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moritz would like a command line switch that makes all deprecations fatal, and use that when running the spectest suite 12:03
dalek ast: 2c82fd6 | lizmat++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
Remove test for removed deprecated code
lizmat moritz: would an env variable do the trick as well ? 12:04
moritz lizmat: aye
lizmat ok, that should be easily done :-)
masak ++lizmat 12:05
jaffa4 I figure out $truth ius reserved?
moritz jaffa4: most certainly not
m: my $truth = 42; say "{$truth / 2} is only half the truth!" 12:06
camelia rakudo-moar 2ec563: OUTPUT«21 is only half the truth!␤»
dalek ast: 891df00 | lizmat++ | S02-types/assigning-refs.t:
Unfudge now passing tests
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cognominal It is fascinating in the paper pointed by lizmat, that the guy uses Perl 6 but must provide excuses for that. Interesting that Perl (here 6) "does the job" even in academic setting, but like in most company settings it is a shameful thing you would shove under the rug if you could. 12:18
hoelzro o/ #perl6 12:23
yoleaux 08:33Z <[ptc]> hoelzro: what is your opinion regarding the use of panda in Travis builds? Should we retain panda and use panda-test, or remove panda support and just use a prove incantation?
Ven missed said paper
cognominal: mind pointing me to it? 12:24
cognominal probably, one of the Perl "sins" is that, unlike lisp, you cannot write a reader as one of the first exercices. Grammar.nqp is ~5k long. So an accident, lisp lack of syntax is turned into a dogma, homoiconicity.
Ven, www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~gc/p...eagain.pdf 12:25
hoelzro [ptc]: if we remove panda support, we need to find a way to generate our own Makefiles to build and test more complex modules 12:26
I see ugexe's point, though
cognominal Ven, the guy who wrote that works for the CNRS at Paris Diderot :)
Ven cognominal: I inferred that from the domain name :P 12:27
the name rings a bell
xiaomiao cognominal: deviating from (socially expected?) norms is expensive
cognominal in such setting, may be, not using OCaml is a sin :)
...or Coq(orico) 12:28
hoelzro I tried building the docs last night, but I got a 'const_iX NYI' failure. I tried again with a checkout of 2015.05, same thing. Has anyone else been running into this?
lizmat hmmm... a suprising number of spectest fail with deprecations being fatalized 12:30
moritz which means we should have done that sooner :-) 12:34
colomon moritz++ lizmat++ 12:35
moritz only did the talking, lizmat++ did the work :-)
lizmat talking is good :-)
smls so for the other side of the coin, can we now make deprecation warning in release builds opt-in? :P
moritz no 12:36
smls :(
moritz nobody ever enables opt-in warnings
which means they don't fix the deprecations
and then there's no point in having them at all 12:37
smls well, end-user seldom fix upstream code anyway
moritz that's one of the lessons perl 5 learned the hard way
lizmat yeah, but the report should be easily forwardable
dalek rl6-most-wanted: 63e9b23 | timo++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
it'd be cool to have access to DBus

sd-bus seems kinda nice.
lizmat even by end-users
moritz smls: but at least they can report them to the author
smls people who should see the warnings: 1) developers, 2) testers, 3) packagers
not end-users
lizmat or by packagers
moritz in real live, end-users also act as testers 12:38
lizmat who could also use the info to patch themselves before moving them upstream
smls well, packagers run unit tests (assuming the build system does it automatically, as it does in panda)
moritz smls: then in our ideal world, the packers fix the deprecations, and the user doesn't see them anymore 12:39
smls so they don't need to see the warnings outside of test runs
that leaves no grace period though
moritz if that doesn't work, it's better to bother the user with deprecation warnings than to swallow them whole, and later break the code (which the unit tests won't catch; otherwise they'd be fixed)
smls if warning were only visible during building, packagers would have to "fix" them when they create the next package revision 12:40
now, they have to fix all Perl 6 program packages as soon as a new Rakudo or upstream module deprecates something
moritz smls: that might work well for compile-time warnings, but not for run-time warnings
Ven cognominal: I already caught an error in the paper :P
smls unit tests (which are run before pre-compiling) should check run-time stuff 12:41
moritz but often enough don't
smls well, that's up to the program devs 12:42
I don't think compiler writers should force that "safety" on down-stream devs at the expense of end-users.
lizmat Ven: I'm pretty sure the author would like to know :-)
Ven lizmat: who should I ping? it's only errors in the code, though 12:43
lizmat Giuseppe Castagna [email@hidden.address] by mail I guess
and/or invite him to the channel :-)
smls moritz: End-users will also report to the author if the program starts failing because a previously deprecated feature has been removed altogether. 12:44
lizmat smls: yeah, but that should be prevented, no?
smls By forcing them to adabt immediately to a deprecation, undoes the whole point of having a grace period which is what deprecatios are for
lizmat: prevented by forcing it to happen earlier? 12:45
lizmat ah, yes, RAKUDO_DEPRECATIONS_FATAL should only be optional
so there should be a grace period, indeed
smls well, a non-fatal deprecation warning is as bad as a fatal one, if your program considers its STDOUT/STDERR its user interface 12:46
moritz also, deprecations only activate in versions higher than the release
smls which should be kept tidy and user-facing
moritz so if you switch to releases, the module and program authors have a month of grace period
lizmat smls: please note that deprecations are only written to STDERR *after* the program is done
so in a lot of cases, there should be no issue 12:47
moritz if you use a bleading edge rakudo from git, you can be bothered to submit deprecations warnings to the module authors
smls: please ask nwc10 how well (or not well) opt-in deprecation warnings worked for Perl 5
lizmat: if you push your RAKUDO_DEPRECATIONS_FATAL patch to rakudo (without enabling it in the tests yet), I could start going through roast 12:48
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lizmat moritz: I'm seeing odd things in the patch, checking whether it is something I did 12:49
[Coke] waves.
yoleaux 05:35Z <TimToady> [Coke]: I'm okay for adding it as a toy, but maybe we want the ! modifier as someone suggested for sugar
smls moritz: So why not suppress them on *all* stable released Rakudo versions, and *only* force users of git builds to become deprecation testers? 12:50
moritz smls: because experience in perl 5 shows that this doesn't work well. 12:51
smls well for whom?
moritz smls: it doesn't work well for anybody
smls
.oO( Maybe sympathy for keeping STDERR fully under the program's control is underdeveloped among programmers who tend to write server or GUI apps?)
 12:52
moritz not for the perl 5 core devs, who write deprecation warnings that nearly nobody actually sees
nor for the developers, who don't get feedback on their use of deprecated features
smls You wouldn't want GTK::Simple to force a label with deprecation warning on the tope of the main window?
Or your server app to send them at the top of every HTML page?
moritz nor for the end-users, who get broken software when the deprecated feature was removed 12:53
lizmat smls: would you be happier if we would send deprecation output to a file optionally?
moritz smls: I prefer it over completely broken software
but then I'm not the perfectionist that I used to be when I was younger 12:54
smls lizmat: How would that be controlled?
If it with a pragma, care shoudl be taken that it does not affect unit-test runs. 12:55
moritz: Having 1 month (=1 Rakudo release cycle) grace period, is at least something. 12:56
moritz smls: did a deprecation warning cause you some actual trouble? 12:57
smls If post-6.0 releases start to be spaced out more (akin to Perl 5), this should period will automatically become longer right?
moritz yes
smls Then I might actually be fine with that system. 12:58
Basically a 3-stage approach: First the warning is endabled for testers and bleeding-edge users; later for everyone; later becomes fatal.
12:59 Begi left
dalek kudo/nom: 98e36a3 | lizmat++ | src/core/Deprecations.pm:
Introduce RAKUDO_DEPRECATIONS_FATAL env var

When set to a true value, will die with the deprecation error report as soon as the deprecation is seen.		 13:01
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lizmat lunch& 13:01
smls re "actual trouble": not in the sense of systems crashing and rockets exploding, no. But in the sense of not standing in the way of delivering the best possible user experience. (Which, imo, includes forward-compatibility. Even if you fix a deprecation warning in your program right away, users may not install your new version right away.
(but they may get a new compiler version during that time from their distro etc.) 13:02
[Coke] it's easier in java, when you can get the deprecation warnings at compile time, not runtime. 13:03
jaffa4 rakudo: my $b = Mu; if ($b) { print "do";} 13:07
camelia ( no output )
jaffa4 rakudo: my $b = 1; if ($b) { print "do";}
camelia rakudo-moar 8988d3: OUTPUT«do»
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moritz m: if 'abc' !~~ /['"]/ { say "foo" } 13:12
camelia rakudo-moar 8988d3: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ASXzRhBTpo␤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" ␤at /tmp/ASXzRhBTpo:1␤------> 3if 'abc' !~~ /['"]/ { say "foo" }7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ single quot…»
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FROGGS moritz: I already replied to that ticket 13:19
[ptc] hoelzro: I see ugexe's point as well. However, feel that using panda is the better way. 13:26
hoelzro agreed
moritz FROGGS: yes, just saw it in RT 13:27
dalek ecs/substr-range: e337b93 | hoelzro++ | S32-setting-library/Str.pod:
Propose Str.substr(Range)
 13:28
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[ptc] hoelzro: it'd be good to have the build scripts that we've got running on the TravisCI infrastructure just to see if everything works. 13:30
hoelzro: surely we can update the code later to improve things if necessary 13:31
masak hoelzro: maybe say something about the indices needing to be Real? 13:32
[ptc] hoelzro: I'll tell BanzaiMan to roll out the build scripts the way they are. Are you OK with that?
13:32 skids joined
dalek ast: a7b55f7 | lizmat++ | S02-types/ (2 files):
Make sure deprecations tests don't die
 13:39
osystem: 07cf973 | (Steve Mynott)++ | META.list:
add App::p6tags - editor tag generator
 13:43
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masak hm, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr sounds kind of similar to strangelyconsistent.org/blog/macros...parameters 13:48
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TimToady
.oO(The only thing we have to fexpr is fexpr itself...)
 13:49
masak feh :P 13:52
TimToady -> 14:01
TimToady -> Tahoe
14:02 skids left
jnthn
.oO( of gotahoe.com fame... )
 14:04
colomon
.oO( is that like the current American TV show Got Ham? )
 14:05
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hoelzro masak: alright, I'll put that in there 14:11
[ptc]: I'm good with that
when you all get a chance, could you provide feedback on github.com/perl6/specs/pull/93, and whether that would be a good addition to the standard library? 14:18
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smls just realized that the Artistic License 2.0 inherently allows the code to be redistributed under the GPL (or similar free software licenses), and that's why Rakudo/Perl6 no longer needs the dual-licensing which Perl 5 used (Artistic 1.0|GPL1+). 14:29
jaffa4 how would you write that in Perl 6? @token_short_names{@identifier} = ('i') x scalar(@identifier); 14:30
timotimo just xx *
though you'd of course write %token_short_names instead of @token_short_names 14:31
jaffa4 xx instread of x?
masak yes.
timotimo x is for string repetition only in perl6 14:32
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jaffa4 What would be the benefit of having perl tidy in Perl6? 14:33
It is in the list of doable modules 14:34
timotimo having a tidy-up-my-code tool is always nice 14:35
smls I guess that was meant to refer to creating a perl6tidy in Perl 6 (not doing a plain port of perltidy)
tadzik a Perl6::Grammar subclass that emits the source, but with spaces rearranged :) 14:37
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muraiki p6fmt 14:44
heh :)
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jaffa4 How can I override signals n Perl6? 14:59
timotimo design.perl6.org/S17.html#System_ev...s_Supplies 15:00
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ugexe should a module installer try to compile/install a distribution that does not list all its files `use`d in the 'provides'? if the file is listed but uses an absolute path instead of a relative, could this safely be turned into a relative path to see if it matches any modules to correct a leading mistaken '/' (like /lib/Some/Module instead of lib/Some/Module)? 15:14
jaffa4 Is there way to declare a list of variable without using comma, like using space? 15:18
PerlJam jaffa4: you have something against commas? :) 15:19
jaffa4 qw(....
in Perl 5
PerlJam jaffa4: Perl 6 uses < > for qw() 15:20
assuming you mean my ($foo,$bar,$baz) = <foo bar baz>; # like this?
jaffa4 my ($foo $bar $baz) 15:22
PerlJam jaffa4: why do you want to do this? What's wrong with using comma? 15:24
ugexe: your first question doesn't make sense to me. the "files used" is more of a "depends" thing than a "provides" thing. 15:25
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jaffa4 PerlJam: I was convering Perl5 code which uses use vars(....... 15:26
PerlJam oh. 15:27
"use vars" was kind of a mistake IMHO. while it doesn't do exactly the same thing, you can convert it to our ($foo,@bar,%baz); 15:29
in fact, I think the docs for vars says not to use it
moritz Perl 6 code should try to avoid 'our' variables too 15:31
lexicals generaly work much better
(or OO, and no globals)
PerlJam moritz: sure, but ... one thing at a time :)
moritz PerlJam: I have to object 15:32
if you write crappy / unidiomatic Perl 6 code, your Perl 6 experience will suck
so it's good for mental sanity to start out with not-too-bad code 15:33
PerlJam moritz: in converting Perl 5 code to Perl 6, the introduction of too many new concepts into the code too fast will also cause the experience to suck (IMHO)
or, put another way, "I just wanted to convert this code, not redesign the thing!" 15:34
smls m: my $x = 42; class A { method a { say $x } }; A.a 15:35
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«42␤»
smls ^^ In Perl 5 this would fail
moritz it would?
PerlJam yeah, because that's Perl 6, not Perl 5 ;)
smls hm
ah, with subroutines it would fail
PerlJam smls: why exactly? 15:36
smls m: sub x { 42 }; class A { method a { say x } }; A.a
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«42␤»
moritz $ perl -wE 'my $x = 42; { package A; sub a { say $x } }; bless({}, A)->a()'
42
perl -wE 'my $x = 42; { package A; sub a { say $x } }; A::a()'
also works
smls right, I mixed that up, it works with my variables
PerlJam smls: but not with ... ??
smls but subroutines attach to their module in Perl 5, not to their lexical scope 15:37
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moritz yes 15:37
smls So even if your class is defined in the same file as the main program, it must use the main:: prefix to call its subroutines. 15:38
PerlJam or do what moritz did
smls no, that was for variables 15:39
$ perl -wE 'sub x { 42 }; package A { sub a { say x() } }; bless({}, A)->a()' 15:40
Undefined subroutine &A::x called at -e line 1.
ugexe PerlJam: you have to either 1. know the location of the pm6 files before hand (the provides) or 2. walk the directory tree and grep them. This is so you can determine build order. Anyway the question then is: should a package manager be grepping a directory for files? or should it only "see" the files in the metafile it knows beforehand? 15:41
smls But, this has nothing to do with my/our variables, that was just a thinko on my part
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PerlJam ugexe: I would think the latter. 15:43
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:45
yoleaux 05:35Z <TimToady> pmichaud: I'm fine with args to X/Z not flattening by default, I think, as well as circumfix:<[ ]> (but postcircumfix:<[ ]> should still be a list of flattened lists for multi-dim slicing)
15:46 kaare__ left
hoelzro morning pmichaud 15:47
pmichaud backlogs
for those of you who weren't active/around about 5 or 6 years ago, here's a restatement of the iteration conundrum 15:48
if a programmer writes 15:49
for 1, 3 ... 1_000_001 { ... }
we'd like to have the loop go through the sequence, but not keep the already-processed values around
15:50 diana_olhovik joined
pmichaud in other words, we don't want to be holding onto a list of 500K entries while processing the loop 15:50
however
if a programmer writes
my @a := 1, 3 ... 1_000_001; for @a { ... }
15:51 domidumont left, TEttinger joined
pmichaud the natural expectation is that @a will still have values (500K of them) once the loop has completed 15:51
so, how do we detect the difference between the two? Do we have to have bindings mark the bound value somehow ? 15:52
FROGGS nods
hmmm
good question :o)
japhb pmichaud: That's not my natural expectation, even though I know it is the current Perl 6 expectation. My *natural* expectation is that he for loop iterates along @a, but does not keep the reified values. After the loop, @a still is bound to the unreified sequence.
pmichaud japhb: how about if I rewrite it slightly? 15:53
sub foo(@a) { for @a { ... }; say @a.elems; }; foo( (1, 3 ... 1_000_001) ); # what gets output for @a.elems ?
japhb looking
PerlJam japhb: doesn't that become the opposite of laziness if we have to keep reifying the values over and over again?
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japhb PerlJam: I'm not claiming it's optimal in a CPU usage sense. It's just that pmichaud asked about (well, spoke of) "natural expectation", and it occurred to me that I had a different subconscious response. 15:55
pmichaud doesn't matter. replace the sequence with lines() and you'll see that one can't really do "unreified sequence"
for lines() { ... } vs my @a ;= lines(); for @a { ... }; say @a.elems
vs
japhb pmichaud: Your rewrite with @a.elems does indeed leave me conflicted. 15:56
Hmmm
pmichaud sub xyz(@a) { for @a { ... }; say @a.elems }; xyz( lines() )
japhb Yeah, that argues in favor of your interpretation. I'm still bothered that I respond differently to the different cases. 15:57
pmichaud it should bother you, at least a little. :)
japhb Like there's a way in which '1, 3 ... 1_000_001' is 'static', where 'lines()' is not.
(But yes, I know, what if the sequence had a closure in it) 15:58
:-/
pmichaud anyway, the only way I've been able to resolve this is to force the system to keep track of bindings. But even then I worry about things like binding to 'self' -- i.e., that probably shouldn't be treated a sa binding
japhb (I'm too old not to trust my "gut", and yet all too aware that the brain is an easily confused thing.) 15:59
pmichaud jnthn++ will also note that there's a difference between := and ::= and perhaps it's only the latter that we need to keep track of. Still, it means doing some sort of marking on every parameter binding.
japhb has forgotten the true meaning of ::= 16:00
lizmat perhaps the reified version should be indicated differently
PerlJam japhb: IIRC, it's a compile-time :=
pmichaud ::= is what happens when you pass an argument to a parameter
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lizmat my @a[1, 3 ... 1_000_001]; 16:00
std: my @a[1, 3 ... 1_000_001];
camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 140m␤»
lizmat or: 16:01
std: my @a[1, 3 ... 1_000_001] := *;
camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 141m␤»
pmichaud lizmat: I don't see how that applies to the question I'm asking. 16:02
lizmat let me rephrase: what does: 16:03
my @a[1..10];
currently (supposed to) mean
?
pmichaud afaik, it creates an array indexed from 1..10. I'd have to re-read S09.
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lizmat hmmmm.... 16:04
16:04 kaare__ joined
pmichaud reading S09, I don't see that it's a valid syntax. 16:05
lizmat ah, but std says it's ok
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pmichaud well, std will often pass things as being valid syntactically even if they don't make sense semantically or aren't permissible semantically 16:05
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lizmat in any case, by moving the sequence inside the slice spec, one would indicate one wants a reified array with thos values 16:06
as opposed to an iterator
pmichaud how does one do it for the sub parameter case, then?
lizmat which what would my @a := 1..10 would mean
lizmat looks
pmichaud I'm using a sequence as a simplified instance of lines()
lizmat you mean the "sub xyz(@a) { for @a { ... }; say @a.elems }; xyz( lines() )" case ? 16:07
pmichaud lizmat: yes
I'm using a sequence as an example of something that generates a large number of values
which we don't want to hold all in memory if they're just being iterated
lizmat I would see the lines() as an iterator 16:08
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lizmat if one would want to keep the values around, one would do xyz( @ = lines() ) ?? 16:08
pmichaud that seems quite unnatural. 16:09
lizmat perhaps because we didn't think of it before?
pmichaud well, we did go through this about 6 or 7 years ago.
that's what led to the current implementation using "immutable iterators" 16:10
lizmat I'm sorry I didn't partake in it then, please forgive any reiterations on my part (no pun intended)
pmichaud right, that's why I'm re-bringing it up now, and trying to get a couple of quick concrete examples for people to work with
to see if there are any new ideas.
lizmat fwiw, we're talking mostly syntax at this point, right? 16:11
pmichaud the immutable iterators was an attempt to solve the memory consumption problem, but it didn't work.
I'm primarily focused on the runtime, actually.
nine lizmat: intentionally or not, that was a great pun :)
lizmat perhaps we need to (re-?) entertain the idea that iterators are iterators, and sequences are sequences and never shall the two meet ? 16:12
and that we need syntactic sugar to differentiate between the two ?
nine Probably this is crystal clear to people who've been around 6 years ago, but isn't this a rather plain GC problem? If the sequence is bound to a container (my @a = 1..10), it will be kept around by that and if not, then who will do that? 16:13
pmichaud okay, everyone, do me a favor: forget the sequence. Obviously I goofed by trying to simplify it there.
Just focus on lines()
16:13 domidumont left
lizmat lines() is an iterator in my book 16:13
pmichaud so is a sequence, in reality, but let's focus on lines() 16:14
lizmat a sequence is a reified iterator in my book
moritz nine: the real problem is this: my @lines := lines(); for @lines { do something }; @lines[0]; # must keep all lines
nine: but for lines() -> $x { do something } # must not keep all lines in memory 16:15
pmichaud lizmat: I disagree, but I'd like to keep focused on the other problem for now.
16:15 abraxxa left
nine moritz: s/must not/need not/ in your second example? 16:15
moritz nine: must not
nine moritz: why?
pmichaud imagine a 10-billion line input file
moritz nine: because then using 'for lines() { }' will become an anti-pattern 16:16
pmichaud I'd compromise with "should not"
PerlJam This feels kinda like a type-inference problem to me (except we're trying to infer "keep" vs "don't keep")
moritz because it uses too much memory
smls had hoped that this had all been figured out at APW2014... :/
nine Ok, so this is _only_ about the memory usage optimization problem? Not something else that I haven't noticed yet? 16:17
moritz fwiw python solves this by using separate iterator types, and forcing you to do sometimes explicitly iterate (or coerce via list())
pmichaud I'm focusing on memory usage atm, yes.
moritz nine: well, it shouldn't be too slow, either
pmichaud My current conjecture is that there is a separate iteration type, yes. 16:18
it's possible that the solution is that iterators aren't positional, and thus do not bind to @ variables
nine moritz: but any slowness would be the result of a fix for the memory problem, wouldn't it?
moritz nine: I don't have a good enough overview of possible implementations to comment on that 16:19
pmichaud if we say that iterators aren't positional, then
sub xyz(@a) { ... }; xyz(lines()) would fail
the programmer would have to use @(lines()) or lines().list to coerce it to a list (which of course would then properly keep the values around, as intended) 16:20
nine sounds sucky
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moritz or maybe @ really means Iterable, not Positional 16:20
pmichaud please not that 16:21
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lizmat need to be afk now :-( & 16:23
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dha So, the example in the docs for chmod is C<$*CWD.chmod(0o700);> Shall I assume that that applies the mode to all the files in the specified directory? Followup: Could you use C<$fh.chmod> to apply a mode to an individual file via filehandle? 16:25
nine Ok, I think I understand now why this seems to require a binding count at runtime.
moritz dha: I'd assume it only applies to to the directory itself 16:26
pmichaud dha: what moritz++ said
I'll have to leave in a few; at the moment I see three possible resolutions 16:27
dha Ah. In that case, that example strikes me as confusing. Also, the p5 behavior of C<chmod> was that it applied to a list of files. Is that no longer the case, or can it only be done by using it this way: C<chmod (0o755, "file1, "file2"...>? 16:28
pmichaud dha: the p5 behavior of chmod isn't that it applies to all files in a directory, is it?
pmichaud checks
there's a difference between "list of files" and "all files in a directory" 16:29
moritz pmichaud: p5 chmod doesn't descend recursively either
pmichaud moritz: yeah, that's what I remember
dha no. But to a list of files. My assuming that applying it to the files in a directory was clearly a thinko on my part. I saw "CWD" and thought "that contains a bunch of files!"
pmichaud anyway, if someone has a list of files I'd expect @flist.»chmod(0o700) or something like that 16:30
moritz dha: clearer examples are very welcome
pmichaud or just chmod 0o700, @flist 16:31
three possible resolutions:
dha I guess I should figure out what the C<􏿽xBB> operator does, then..
pmichaud 1. iterators aren't Positional, so they don't bind to @-variables. Someone passing an iteration value to a position argument has to explicitly cast it into a list 16:32
2. The runtime marks an iterable whenever something is bound to it, the iterable then knows it has to keep values around 16:33
...i forgot #3. :-|
dha moritz - I'd suggest something like C<$filehandle.chmod(0o700);> for the example. But maybe I'm the only person to have that mistaken thought about cwd containing a bunch of files. :-) 16:34
pmichaud dha: I agree with changing the example to be something other than $*CWD
moritz years ago, but isn't this a rather plain GC problem? If the
dha oh, and in pmichaud's example of C<@flist.􏿽xBBchmod(0o700)> should it be assumed that C<@flist> contains a list of filehandles? 16:35
pmichaud dha: yes, or things that understand .chmod :)
dha right.
pmichaud and I'm not sure I had that syntax exactly right.
I can never remember where the » goes in relation to the dot
(because I don't use it that often yet) 16:36
nine pmichaud: on a more abstract level your solutions are: have the programmer be explicit or have the runtime do expensive book keeping 16:38
pmichaud I'm not sure the runtime bookkeeping has to be all that expensive, but it may be intricate from an implementor side. 16:39
more to the point, it becomes a jnthn++ issue or something that someone dealing with the binder has to get right
dha What does 􏿽xBB do, anyway? I don't see it in the operator doc page.
pmichaud dha: "hyper operator"
PerlJam from the peanut gallery, runtime bookkeeping seems like the "right" thing.
dha Aha. Documented anywhere? 16:40
pmichaud dha: design.perl6.org/S03.html#Hyper_operators
dha *nod* thanks 16:41
Maybe I'll just leave that part out...
dalek c: bd9f7a3 | smls++ | lib/Type/IO/Path.pod:
Show better example for IO::Path.chmod
 16:42
nine But why not utilize the GC? Knowing if something needs to be kept around is its job. I'm fantasizing about asking the GC whether there are any references to the iterator other than the for loop and using that to decide, whether to keep the values around or not.
dha Ah. Looks like it should actually be C<@files􏿽xBB.chmod>
smls the subroutine forms of several methods on that page still need to be documented
but possibly on the type/IO page instead 16:43
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dalek c: b1f566d | pmichaud++ | WANTED:
Add lines()/$*ARGFILES to WANTED. (#96)
 16:43
PerlJam nine: how is the GC to know about that for loop? 16:44
DrForr I take it github is having drama at the moment?
smls moritz: Should the subroutine forms of the IO::Path methods be documented together with their method forms, or together with the other io subroutines (like mkdir) on the type/IO page?
smls is not quite happy with how that part of the docs is structured. 16:45
PerlJam nine: also, if you leave it up to the GC, you'll have to force a run or wait until one happens to free all of the memory that you didn't want to keep around anyway. That could defeat the purpose of "saving memory"
pmichaud nine: the purpose of immutable iterators was to let the GC try to take care of it. The problem is that we end up having inadvertent references to the earlier values
dha DrForr - how so?
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nine Doesn't even have to happen before iteration starts. When iterating over a billion lines, the GC is bound to run soon. I imagine it saying "hey, cleaning up, I noticed that the values you produce are referenced by no one else. You may stop keeping them around" 16:46
moritz smls: along with the methods
smls ok
pmichaud nine: I think you have the role of GC backwards in this scenario. (more)
although perhaps better communication between GC and objects is warranted. :) 16:47
smls moritz: Hm, even though the subroutine forms also accept filename strings instead of IO::Path objects?
moritz smls: then ideally they'd go into both places
DrForr Rather, something up with the rakudo github pull.
pmichaud DrForr: github pull worked fine for me just now 16:48
DrForr Eeh, something in the VM.
pmichaud I have to go; important phone call in 12
bbl
DrForr GL
nine pmichaud: I think that's my point. Maybe the current implementation is not actually that far off and the solution is trying to get rid off those pointers to the list's start and making the GC communicate with the iterator so it can tell it to stop keeping values around.
pmichaud nine: jnthn++ and I explored the idea of trying to release all of the pointers to the list. It's much harder than that. (more) 16:49
it's not just the pointers that may exist at the p6 library level, but every register within the VM as well.
also, in many cases, we don't actually control the GC (i.e., JVM) 16:50
hoelzro tony-o_: could you share some of your concerns regarding github.com/travis-ci/travis-build/pull/415?
PerlJam nine: in my imagination, the compiler can markup the AST to build trees of how iterative values are connected and if there's any instance of an op that requires the values be kept around, it generates code to keep them, but if there's not, it doesn't. 16:51
pmichaud PerlJam: that doesn't work for when an iterator is passed as a argument
that's a runtime thing.
PerlJam well, that's where it becomes type-inferency in my imagination :)
pmichaud but you can't infer type at runtime for things like method calls 16:52
nine Or when the iterator is returned by a function as in for give_me_the_iterator() { ... }
jaffa4 rakudo: my %t = ( 'Goatse' => [q:w != ( ) =!]); 16:53
camelia ( no output )
nine Prohibiting iterators from binding to @-variables sounds like losing most of the advantages of laziness.
PerlJam indeed.
tony-o_ hoelzro: my concern is the same as ugexe's, panda is fairly consistently broken for me and i don't like the idea of being married to it when right now i have the option to a) manually download depends b) install panda as part of my travis-ci config, or c) build my package in a way that i don't depend on something - i like having the option to *not* be mandatory broken because something i don't need in many cases isn't working
pmichaud I don't see that it affects laziness at all 16:54
binding to a @-variable doesn't make something non-lazy
hoelzro tony-o_: fair point. but then how do we handle modules that have dependencies, or those that have a Build.pm for custom build logic?
maybe we should have Travis have some sort of use_panda_test config in .travis.yml
ugexe Build.pm is not the standard. Hooks/ is
PerlJam pmichaud: it doesn't directly, but it seems that you have to circumvent laziness to bind iterators to @things. 16:55
hoelzro [ptc]: ^
nine pmichaud: foo(lines().list) # will this cause Perl 6 to read in all lines and build the list in memory?
tony-o_ ugexe++
pmichaud PerlJam: how so?
.list is still lazy
it's .eager that forces non-laziness
hoelzro I've not heard of Hooks
PerlJam Hrm.
ugexe hooks is to contain code to be run by the packagae manager during the various phases of install 16:56
pmichaud m: my @a = 1 .. *; my @b = @a.list; 1; # still lazy!
camelia ( no output )
pmichaud m: my @a = 1 .. *; my @b = @a.list; say "hello"; # still lazy!
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«hello␤»
PerlJam I guess my mental model is a little off on that then.
(was :)
pmichaud lists are lazy
nine Ok, the .list would tell the iterator that it's most probably bound now so it has to keep the values around?
pmichaud therefore .list is something that can be lazy :)
hoelzro ah, interesting 16:57
pmichaud .list would produce something that is a list, getting its elements from the iterator
(which isn't a list)
tony-o_ hoelzro: even for the 'hooks' piece, i still have the option to manually do that stuff (same for Build.PM) in t-ci. agree that it doesn't test the package with panda but that seems like a very specific case which can be tested/used by manually installing panda in t-ci config
nine Definitely sounds like a working solution. But also loses some of Perl's magic and have its users care a bit more about types (which we tell them is an optional part) 16:58
hoelzro ugexe, tony-o_: you can override the default test command to use prove
ugexe the travis-ci deal uses rakudobrew as it is, so the user can simply do 'rakudobrew build-panda'
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hoelzro ok, good point 16:59
I'm just trying to think about what the best default setup is
PerlJam runtime bookkeeping still feels "right" to me.
pmichaud the only place I can see where it might expose itself is when passing something iterated to a function
I mean, my @a = lines(); # still works
...passing something iterated to a Positional function parameter 17:00
nine I could live with that if it makes iteration much faster without causing jnthn++ headaches :) 17:01
pmichaud iterated things are generally the results of gather/take, loops, and lines()
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pmichaud phone call 17:02
tony-o_ hoelzro: i think until things are more stable, my ideal set up is building panda explicitly so i know whether it's my commit or something else 17:03
hoelzro tony-o_: so you're nervous that panda failures will present you with false tests failures?
tony-o_ i'd appreciate any feedback anyone has on: github.com/tony-o/perl6-hiker 17:06
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tony-o_ hoelzro: yes, i like having the option to do something but not having the option to not do something, if that makes sense 17:08
dha Hm. so C<chown> is gone?
tony-o_ dha: doesn't seem so 17:09
hoelzro tony-o_, ugexe: I'm ok with just using prove until panda stablizes a bit, or until a better way of running tests arises. I'm still concerned about the boilerplate for testing modules with dependencies, though
dha tony-o_ - oh? I'm not seeing any indication of it anywhere, and when I tried it I got spat at. 17:10
ugexe the boiler plate is just rakudobrew build-panda. you still have to do the equivilent of 'cpanm --install-deps .' 17:11
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tony-o_ dha: ahh, i was having a problem with my shell - looks like you're right 17:11
dha whew. 17:12
hoelzro ugexe: except here, you also have to do something to the effect of perlbrew install-cpanm
tony-o_ i believe there is a function for chown in nqp though
ugexe yeah, a single line of boilerplate.
and considering cpanm is stable as can be expected, thats not bad 17:13
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ugexe otherwise might as well just supply Star 17:14
if your concern is ease of use for dependencies vs a line of boilerplate anyway 17:15
dalek osystem: 35337a7 | tony-o++ | META.list:
Hiker - PP6 MVC for the masses
[ptc] hoelzro: backlogging...
ugexe travis also allows you to execute commands if nothing else was entered in the travis.yml, so you can automate the 'rakudobrew build-panda && panda install-deps .' etc by setting it as the default cmd 17:17
[ptc] sure, we just need to document that nicely, so that the user knows what to do
ugexe, tony-o_, hoelzro: is it worthwhile leaving build-panda in there? 17:18
ugexe i dunno, none of that type of stuff is even documented in p5. try running a TCI test (using the current p5 method) without anything in the 'install' block 17:19
pmichaud back again
hoelzro [ptc]: if it's not used by default, I don't think so
ugexe i.e., if you put nothing in your install block it defaults to cpanm --install-deps ., which obviously wont work with a perl6 module :)
pmichaud (GLR/iterators/memory) I'm wondering if we can actually do this in stages. 17:20
I very much agree with PerlJam++'s comment that runtime bookkeeping feels like the right thing. Torment implementors on behalf of users and all that. 17:21
[ptc] it shouldn't be a problem for me to strip the panda stuff out of the build scripts; the code is still in the repo if we need it again in the future anyway
pmichaud on the other hand, I'm thinking perhaps it's good enough to do this in stages
tony-o_ [ptc]++
pmichaud in the first stage, we disallow binding iterated results into Positional variables, and see how much of a burden that imposes (and if it solves the problem)
[ptc] we just need to have in the docs what the standard incantation would be for someone using perl6
hoelzro that works for me! 17:22
pmichaud if it's too much of a burden, or if it doesn't resolve the issue, we can relax it later without undue hardship.
raiph pmichaud: how about if one binds an Iterable to a Positional all reified values are kept (modulo GC); to avoid ram consumption, bind to a Scalar?
pmichaud raiph: this still requires that we do some bookkeeping on binding at runtime. 17:23
tony-o_ hoelzro++
[ptc] tony-o_: do you also want to be listed as a maintainer? 17:24
raiph pmichaud: I'm not looking to avoid book keeping, rather trying keep things simpler for users
tony-o_ sure
[ptc] cool
pmichaud raiph: well, once we have an accurate binder bookkeeper, keeping things for users isn't really a problem.
it's the "once we have an accurate binder bookkeeper" part that is non-trivial, not the part that comes after :) 17:25
[ptc] tony-o_: your email address as mentioned on GH is ok to mention?
nine If bookkeeping eats performance we're tormenting users again anyway :)
tony-o_ [ptc]: yes, thank you for asking first
pmichaud well, I don't expect the bookkeeping to be expensive, just intricate.
timotimo hm. we can't really put values already iterated into a list without refering to said list ... 17:26
otherwise the "only keep values around if they are referenced" thing would work
pmichaud timotimo: actually, we can :)
timotimo now if we could reverse the dependency and somehow not call into the keep-around-thing
... we can?
pmichaud that's what immutable iterators effectively did
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pmichaud iterators don't place things into lists... rather, lists keep track of iterators 17:27
timotimo oh, right, it required the thing nomming from the iterator to go from iterator piece to iterator piece
pmichaud exactly
timotimo didn't you just say that wasn't implementable in the end?
pmichaud one problem with the current model is that we end up encapsulating all iterators inside of lists... which means we end up holding the entire chain
timotimo mhm 17:28
pmichaud I'm trying to break that "encapsulate all iterators in lists" part.
so, for lines() { ... } never sees a List associated with lines()
timotimo right
sounds sensible to me
pmichaud so the iterator chain can be GCd, since there's no "list" holding onto the head of the chain
[ptc] ugexe, tony-o_, hoelzro: so what should the default test script incantation be? By default it's 'rake test', I believe...
timotimo tony-o_: what is this PP6 you seem to have invented? :) 17:29
pmichaud also, now that we have a Slip type, the chain can be much more robust than the simple head->next->next->next chain we had previously.
[ptc] ugexe, tony-o_, hoelzro: sorry, I just switched my brain off. Please ignore me... *sigh* 17:30
pmichaud so, if someone puts an iterator inside of a list (as in .list), the list will end up holding all of the values for us. But if we never .list the iterator, its values will be discarded upon use 17:31
dalek rl6-roast-data: 5c04a8b | coke++ | / (9 files):
today (automated commit)
pmichaud another problem with the current model is that the parts doing the iteration *do* have to have a reference back to their containing list, so they can massage values going into the list. I'm breaking that dependency also. 17:32
dha Can safely assume C<chroot> is gone from p6? 17:33
pmichaud I see chroot mentioned in S29 (which is highly fossilized). 17:34
but that's the only place it's mentioned, so assume it's gone for now. 17:35
(it's not in any of the sources or other docs or ...)
dha ok.
TEttinger masak: I'm trying to find how macros are expanded in 007. I don't understand what roles or multi methods do yet, but I see this: github.com/masak/007/blob/master/l...ime.pm#L14 17:42
I do see that roles are used heavily in 007, can anyone tell me if that's a common perl 6 practice? 17:43
ugexe yes? 17:46
smls What's this: "const_iX NYI in sub at ./htmlify.p6:750" 17:47
ugexe looks like a precomp bug
ive seen it a few times. in my case it would occur only with the module precompiled at least. 17:49
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colomon TEttinger: Roles are commonly understood to be a fundamental part of p6’s OOP support. 17:51
TEttinger that's good to know! I wasn't familiar with the keyword in any other language 17:52
ugexe you may have heard them referred to as mixins 17:53
TEttinger ah, like in ruby or any prototype-oop lang?
muraiki TEttinger: you can also use roles as interfaces / traits by omitting the body of a method 17:54
well, replacing the body with "..."
TEttinger: there's some more info in github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master...-types.pod 17:55
but yeah, they are everywhere
:)
TEttinger so I see a lot of "role Thing does Q" ; the "does" keyword is like implementing a role?
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smls I believe the official terminology is "composing a role", but yes. 17:58
ugexe S12 is definately worth looking over 17:59
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dha So C<NEXT> blocks replace C<continue> blocks. How about just a C<continue;> with no block? C<NEXT;>? gone? something else? 18:11
ugexe github.com/perl6/specs/blob/4932a7...statements 18:13
dha Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm not seeing an answer there. It just tells me about blocks, and talks about C<next> which it says is the same as in p5, so I'm thinking that's not an equivalent for C<continue;> 18:17
skids dha: perl's bare "continue" is closest to "proceed" and "succeed" 18:18
*perl5
dha Aha. 18:19
skids docs.perl6.org/language/control#given
TEttinger thanks muraiki, I read what I understood of that 18:20
muraiki TEttinger: :) just keep playing with stuff and it'll make sense eventually 18:21
[ptc] ugexe, tony-o_, hoelzro: just updated the Travis Perl 6 docs, please review : github.com/paultcochrane/docs-trav...s/perl6.md
hoelzro [ptc]: should the example versions in "Choosing Perl 6 versions" be changed to 2015.06 and 2015.05 ? 18:23
also, does "latest" imply the latest release of the compiler, or what's on nom?
TEttinger wow, this is confusing... this submethod doesn't ever get explicitly called as far as my searching can tell. github.com/masak/007/blob/master/l...ime.pm#L14
dha I'm feeling pretty secure in telling people that C<crypt> is gone. 18:25
hoelzro [ptc]: regarding the "rakudobrew panda-install 2015.04" bit, is there a way we could have an environment variable with the current tag so that users can use panda-install with more than one Perl 6 version? 18:26
[ptc] hoelzro: latest is what's on nom
hoelzro alright, we might want to clarify that 18:27
[ptc] hoelzro: will do. will also update the "Choosing Perl 6 versions" bit
hoelzro :+1:
[ptc] hoelzro: I don't know if there's a way to control the panda version via env var though... I need to think on that one. Patches welcome :-) 18:28
hoelzro [ptc]: do you think "rakudobrew panda-install $TRAVIS_PERL6_VERSION" will work? 18:29
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[ptc] that's effectively what I had there before 18:30
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[ptc] the version is passed around as a variable at the Ruby level of the build script 18:30
what probably won't work is `rakudobrew build-panda 2015.06`: this requires panda to have the 2015.06 tag (which I haven't yet added....) 18:31
what would be required is that rakudobrew falls back to the next panda version, but that isn't implemented in rakudobrew yet 18:32
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[ptc] hoelzro: "latest" simply runs `rakudobrew build moar`, which builds Moar, NQP and Rakudo all from the relevant HEAD commit 18:35
hoelzro ah ha 18:36
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[ptc] it's for those who like to live life on the edge 18:37
I just pushed an update to the docs
[ptc] is still waiting for moar to build on his vagrant vm... 18:38
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timotimo dha: what is (was) crypt? 18:39
dha Created a digest string a la crypt(3) 18:40
the docs admit that it is poorly named.
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dalek line-Perl5: 713e208 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (2 files):
Pass on named arguments to constructors of imported P5 classes
 18:43
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hoelzro [ptc]: do you happen to know if the Git revisions when building with latest are printed out? that would be useful to a user tracking nom for finding commits responsible for regressions 18:47
b2gills Has anybody encouraged Giuseppe Castagna the author of www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~gc/p...eagain.pdf / www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~gc/p...typing.pdf to join us here? 18:51
[ptc] hoelzro: not off hand. Although I have a feeling rakudobrew does do something like that
jaffa4 rakudo: my $tok = ""; $tok ~= "something"; say "hello $tok";
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«hello something␤»
[ptc] hoelzro: am just running rakudobrew build moar on a power7 machine, and yes, lots of info about commit ids are printed out 18:52
hoelzro ok, cool
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TEttinger so, in an NQP actions class, I want to increment a counter every time a certain method is called (whenever an identifier is read in, the counter increments to ensure that if someone needs a unique suffix within a macro, it will be unique for that form) 18:58
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TEttinger is this reasonable usage for a lexical, dynamic, or package variable in the Actions class? I don't understand package scope yet 18:59
dha I assume that the behavior of C<do> with an expression instead of a block, i.e. that it treats the expression as a filename and executes the contents of that file, has gone away?
TEttinger nice, dha, onto d alphabetically :D
b2gills dha: It has sort of been replaced with EVALFILE 19:00
dha TEttinger - yes!
b2gills - Ah, I'll look at that. Thanks. 19:01
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jaffa4 rakudo: say (1,2,3,4).fmt 19:01
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
jaffa4 rakudo: say ((1,2,3,4).fmt)
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
dha b2gills - also thanks for the patch. My first for this project! :-)
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jaffa4 rakudo: my @e= (1,2,3,4); say @e.fmt; 19:02
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤»
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jaffa4 is .fmt working> 19:02
?? 19:03
b2gills I was thinking about going through the documents and finding more features like that which could be useful to mention
dalek blets: 23ea403 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-g-glossary.txt:
more infos and links about sets in glossary
pmichaud jaffa4: looks to me like it's working.
The default format is '%s'
b2gills rakudo: say (1,2,3,4).fmt: "%f" 19:04
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«1.000000 2.000000 3.000000 4.000000␤»
jaffa4 It should remote the last element
return
like $#
Unsupported use of $# variable; in Perl 6 please use .fmt
pmichaud using .fmt on a list maps to all elements of the list
smls Hrm, The "const_iX NYI" error persists even after nuking ~/.rakudobrew and rebuilding r-m and modules. The line in question is "return qqx{$command};". 19:05
b2gills m: $#
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/GrRSmuM6pI␤Unsupported use of $#variable; in Perl 6 please use @variable.end␤at /tmp/GrRSmuM6pI:1␤------> 3$#7⏏5<EOL>␤»
hoelzro smls: I managed to golf that down
jaffa4 rakudo: $#ewewe
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Unsupported use of $#variable; in Perl 6 please use @variable.end␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3$#7⏏5ewewe␤»
dha jaffa4 - heck, $# is deprecated in p5!
hoelzro gist.github.com/hoelzro/b5a5a7e368adda3797b8 # smls 19:06
flussence dha: not deprecated, removed entirely
jaffa4 rakudo: my @b =4 ; $#ewewe
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Unsupported use of $#variable; in Perl 6 please use @variable.end␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3my @b =4 ; $#7⏏5ewewe␤»
dha Oh, this is a fun one. Do we still have C<dump>?
hoelzro it's actually the LEAVE phaser that's messing things up
smls oh
pmichaud I'm pretty sure that $#ewewe should instead become @ewewe.end
jaffa4 rakudo: my @b =4 ; say ewewe.end
hoelzro smls: if you want to work on docs, I think using Inline::Python should still work
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Undeclared routine:␤ ewewe used at line 1␤␤»
dha flussence - ah, yes. I saw the deprecation line, didn't notice the following removal line.
jaffa4 rakudo: my @b =4 ; say @ewewe.end
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Variable '@ewewe' is not declared␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3my @b =4 ; say 7⏏5@ewewe.end␤»
pmichaud in this case, you'd want @b.end 19:07
jaffa4 rakudo: my @b =4 ; say @b.end
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«0␤»
jaffa4 rakudo: my @b =<4 2>; say @b.end
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (1,2,3,4).end
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«3␤»
b2gills rakudo: my @b =4 ; say @b[@b.end]
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«4␤»
pmichaud perhaps it'd better if you tell us what you're trying to get, though. :)
the canonical method for "get the last element" is to use [*-1] 19:08
smls hoelzro: You mean ./htmlify.p6 --no-inline-python ?
hoelzro smls: no, you *want* to use Inline::Python 19:09
have you installed it?
smls how do i specify that?
oh just install it, got it
dha I wonder when the last time someone actually used C<dump> was.
jaffa4 ===SORRY!=== Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null, cs = 0) 19:10
dalek line-Perl5: ae9f31b | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (3 files):
Delegate Any's methods to the Perl 5 parent class

Many Perl 5 classes use method names that are provided by Any in Perl 6, like list, end, say. Explicitly delegating these methods to the Perl 5 parent object seems to be the safer course and prevents very confusing error messages from appearing.
smls hoelzro: d'oh, installing Inline::Python fails with "unable to find Inline/pyhelper.so IN @*INC" 19:11
hoelzro smls: how are you installing it? just panda install?
smls yeah
19:12 zacts left
hoelzro =( 19:13
nine smls: sounds like it fails to compile?
smls the error is below "Testing Inline::Python"
nine smls: do you have a python-devel libpython-dev or whatever it's called package installed?
smls lemme check
nine smls: the unable to find message is the result, not the origin of the error. If the library is not there it failed to compile 19:14
jaffa4 Is there way to trace compilation?
I do not get a line number for error message
dalek ecs: 70b0ca3 | pmichaud++ | S07-glr-draft.pod:
Updates to latest design concepts for GLR.

Added a status summary at the top of the document. Reintroduced Parcel as an immutable List type. Other small cleanups.		 19:15
ecs: 8682eb6 | pmichaud++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
smls nine: I don't think Arch has a seperate -devel package (it tends to install all include files with the main packages) 19:16
However, it installs Python 2 as "python2"
could that be the problem?
19:17 skids left
nine smls: probably. I don't think I support Python 3 yet 19:17
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smls well, it would probably easier to add support for finding Python under the name "python2" 19:18
nine Yes. Though not by much. I have a good template for Python 3 support in Perl 5's Inline::Python 19:19
hoelzro jaffa4: have you tried --ll-exception? what's the error?
jaffa4 Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null, cs = 0) 19:20
19:20 espadrine left
nine smls: for now you could probably just symlink /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2 19:20
smls yeah
19:21 rindolf left
[Coke] (attr is required) is it ok if the error message refers to $!x if the "is required" is on $.x ? or must it report the same twigil used? 19:21
dha Hm. S29 indicates that for C<each>, one should see the C<.pairs> method, but the dont appear equivalent.
19:21 marel joined
[Coke] (I have no idea why it's reporting differently now, will have to investigate) 19:21
smls nine: It worked!
nine smls: great :)
marel hello. I know python very well, but I never used perl5 or perl6. were should I start? 19:22
dha s/the/they/
jaffa4 hoelzro: you know something
hoelzro oh, great, that error =(
b2gills dha: I used to use `dump` regularly, though that subroutine came from Data::Dump 19:23
hoelzro marel: a good start would be learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/
nine marel: learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/ or doc.perl6.org/
dha b2gills - ah, of course. I was referring to the builtin. :-)
TEttinger masak: woah, I just noticed that 007 isn't written in NQP; it's in perl 6?
marel hoelzro: thank you, is there good book I can use? I find using perl6 but it is 2012, is it still relevant ? 19:24
PerlJam [Coke]: I wouldn't mind a twigil difference.
hoelzro marel: are you talking about github.com/perl6/book? 19:25
PerlJam marel: It's relevant, but needs severe updating.
hoelzro got into Perl 6 because of that book
marel hoelzro, PerlJam yes that book, can I use it or will I learn outdated parts from it ? 19:26
PerlJam marel: you can use it fine, but you may run into some things that have changed. I dunno. I haven't looked at the book in a while.
19:26 smls left
dha Ok, I'm stumped. Is there no equivalent to C<each(%hash)> anymore? 19:26
hoelzro dha: %hash.kv
PerlJam dha: %hash.kv
hoelzro we should have a book jam or something
pmichaud dha: canonical is for %hash.kv -> $k, $v { ... } 19:27
hoelzro one Saturday, just fix/improve that book...
pmichaud I suspect the book has a lot of fossils, sadly.
b2gills I wonder if there should be a page that links to videos of good talks about Perl 6 for new Perl 6 programmers
PerlJam b2gills: +1
marel I will use learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/ until book is updated, too sad there are no up to date book about this language :( 19:28
PerlJam There were a few good talks like that this past YAPC :)
dha Yeah, that doesn't do what each is documented to do. <.kv> gives you a list of keys and values. C<each> gave you the *next* key/value pair.
PerlJam dha: some iterators are less exposed in P6
hoelzro dha: let's say you had each(), what would you do with it?
pmichaud dha: if you're looking for an exact equivalent, there isn't one. The canonical way of iterating through keys and values in a hash is to use the for loop I gave above. 19:29
19:29 marel left
dha I'm not looking for an exact equivalent, I'm just looking to know if there's an exact equivalent, so I can tell people. :-) 19:30
pmichaud in particular, .kv is allowed to be lazy.
so yes, it gives a list of keys and values, but it can be a lazy list
(and I suspect that post-GLR, .kv will give back an iterated sequence and not a list)
b2gills dha: I think a P5=>P6 document should indicate where someone should look, even if it isn't an exact equivalent 19:32
PerlJam pmichaud: as along as I don't have to worry about what an "iterated sequence" is to use it ;)
dha b2gills - indeed. but it should probably also point out that it *isn't* an exact equivalent.
Or not, I suppose. YMMV.
*shrug* 19:33
pmichaud PerlJam: for the most part I suspect it'll just work out.
Things are a lot nicer now that flattening has been taken away from 'for'
and parcels as positionals
19:36 skids joined
pmichaud lunchtime needed here -- bbl 19:36
19:37 colomon left, colomon joined
dha Where is C<< -> >> documented? 19:39
geekosaur I think you're looking for pointy blocks? 19:40
FROGGS dha: like in this? -> { }
19:40 zakharyas joined 19:41 smls joined
dha yeah. 19:41
FROGGS doc.perl6.org/language/control contains it but does not explain it 19:43
-> { } is in fact a routine declaration... after the arrow comes the signature (often an implicit one), and the the routine body (the block) 19:44
so when you know how to write a nice signature, you can apply it to loops also... 19:45
dha Yeah, I saw the examples, but would love to be able to point someone at an actual explanation.
FROGGS m: for < a b c d e > -> $a, $b, $c? { say "$a $b {$c || '?'}"}
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«a b c␤d e ?␤»
jaffa4 bye 19:46
FROGGS o/
19:46 jaffa4 left
FROGGS dha: design.perl6.org/S04.html#The_for_statement 19:49
19:50 _mg_ left
dha Hm. I guess I'll point to that and punt. 19:51
smls sha: Also, design.perl6.org/S06.html#%22Pointy_blocks%22 19:53
19:56 muethos joined
smls *dha 19:58
dha Ta.
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raiph b2gills, PerlJam: "videos of good talks about Perl 6" mebbe tinyurl.com/p6videos 20:09
b2gills I was thinking having a page on perl6.org or other community editable site 20:10
20:15 colomon left
dha So, C<shell> seems to be the analog to p5's C<system>. Is there an equivalent of C<exec>? 20:16
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lizmat run() ? 20:16
masak dha: is that "execute a command and don't return to script"?
dha yes.
hoelzro smls: I created a ticket for the issue: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125480
masak dha: I guess `shell(); exit()` is a first approximation :) 20:17
lizmat ah, not run()
raiph b2gills: the page I linked is a shortcut to the "Curated perl6 videos" link on the perl6.org/documentation/ page; I started and am maintaining the Perl Six youtube account but would prefer it was a community thing
dha lizmat - no. run() appears to be shell() without using the shell. :-)
lizmat yeah, figured that :-)
dha masak - Yeah, i guess that makes sense.
lizmat dha: wouldnt that be "exit shell()' ? 20:18
or conversely: exit run() ?
dha lizmat - Could be. 20:19
TEttinger ...hmmm. in this action method body, what is the precedence doing? make ~$/.ast;
is it stringifying $/ first, then getting its ast?
or the other way around? 20:20
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raiph masak: I just reread the wikipedia fexpr page and your macros-thunkish-parameters blog post and I feel I understood the latter much better 20:21
masak hah 20:22
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vendethiel- waves 20:22
masak raiph: when I re-read my blog post, I'm not sure why I kept {{{$expr}}}, instead of going with $expr.eval
vendethiel-: \o
raiph masak: I though the same then at the end understood why 20:23
*thought
TEttinger hey masak! how are things going?
masak TEttinger: things are going fine! how's with you?
TEttinger I sent some messages that probably should have been via .tell
masak I backlog quite badly these days. 20:24
TEttinger things are decent, I need to commit some code today
masak yes, you do :)
raiph masak: Because you were explicitly NOT willing to confuse one issue with another if you could help it (the {{{ ... }}} thing is listed at the end as not being dealt with)
TEttinger commit streak must get to 400
masak raiph: oh, ok.
vendethiel- TEttinger: I see someone's taking this seriously :P
TEttinger heeh 20:25
masak raiph: just felt like an easy thing to drop if I also dropped quasi
TEttinger it's at 375!
vendethiel- TEttinger: (for the record, I got to 531 days streak and stopped)
TEttinger oh woah
raiph masak: troo
masak TEttinger: remember, it's not the quality that counts, it's the quantity. :P
TEttinger masak, haha my C# would agree
vendethiel- masak: sometimes I just commit out of frustration, anyway. example: I spent the last two days trying to use intellij, android, scala and SBT experience. this was very, very painful 20:26
TEttinger vendethiel-, yes, I actually managed to get those all working together at one point
but it was pain.
sbt is not very good.
vendethiel- TEttinger: oh, it's working now (except for strings completion).
sbt is pretty much madness; what I'd like us to avoid for perl6 :P 20:27
hoelzro jjjj 20:28
vendethiel- hoelzro: 4j
TEttinger m: "hello" ~ 11111;
camelia ( no output )
TEttinger m: say "hello" ~ 11111; 20:29
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«hello11111␤»
TEttinger good.
20:29 smls left
TEttinger hm, the learn x in y minutes thing doesn't say what ':=' as an operator does 20:31
I'm guessing either destructive assignment or assignment to a key's value in a hash?
ugexe m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; $a = 2; say $b 20:32
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«2␤»
TEttinger so it assigns a reference?
[Coke] dha++ for jumping in on the 5-6 stuff.
lizmat TEttinger: it binds 20:33
dha Thanks. As always, comments welcome.
timotimo it binds a different container "into" a variable
TEttinger ah. ok
lizmat m: my $a := 42; $a = 1 # cannot change a constant
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to an immutable value␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/nGkBLBdeDZ:1␤␤»
TEttinger so it's making $b be a container around $a there
lizmat not, it makes them equivalent 20:34
TEttinger oh ok
interesting
20:34 colomon joined
lizmat m: my $a; my $b := $a; say $b.VAR.name 20:35
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«$a␤»
lizmat even to the point of introspecting the name of the variable 20:36
b2gills m: subset Huh of Int where { Bool.pick }; say (0..100).grep: Huh 20:38
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«0 2 3 5 6 9 11 13 15 17 20 22 30 32 34 36 38 41 43 47 48 50 51 52 54 56 57 60 61 62 65 66 68 71 72 73 74 75 78 79 82 83 84 85 88 91 92 93 94 96 97 98␤»
20:38 domidumont left
b2gills ^ Proof that www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~gc/p...typing.pdf won't work for Perl 6 20:38
vendethiel- twitter.com/tpolecat/status/613380313650049024 *chuckles* 20:40
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raiph masak: Am I miles off base thinking the general issue (related to your blog post and fexprs) is how a user gets in to the source code processing stream after a construct has been recognized by the parser and before the AST for its matching elements has been generated; that slangs are very well poised to handle this; that macros can't do the same wi 20:43
thout support from the parser?
hoelzro vendethiel-: I'm having a lot of wrong windows today!
vendethiel- hoelzro: a vim window can't be a wrong window :) 20:44
hoelzro =)
20:45 captain-adequate left
raiph vendethiel: If you can understand and answer my question ^^ for masak, I'd appreciate hearing that answer :) 20:47
vendethiel- raiph: I think "is parsed" is meant to die, at that point
masak raiph: I don't know. I'm not used to thinking of it in terms of fexprs. the problem I was trying to solve was the ability to create thunks in userland. 20:48
vendethiel- so "all" that's left is the operators and others we already have
masak "is parsed" feels both overpowered and underpowered at the same time.
overpowered, because it completely takes over the parse and allows any old weird thing to happen. 20:49
underpowered, because it doesn't even try to connect with the Perl 6 grammar.
dha Is C<flock> gone?
raiph I'm thinking slangs occupy the fexpr form of macro niche
(capability wise; the semantics seem totally different)
lizmat dha: it is at the moment 20:50
raiph (and that slangs also cover, more nicely, what "is parsed" was aiming at)
dha *nod*
masak raiph: you may have a point. 20:51
PerlJam lizmat: it's in IO.pod :)
masak raiph: I'd much rather hand over to a fully-formed grammar than leave things in the hands of "is parsed".
lizmat PerlJam: yeah, in the slushy POSIX section
20:53 captain-adequate joined
dalek kudo/nom: 9e66416 | FROGGS++ | t/04-nativecall/08-callbacks.t:
test doubles as num64 not num in nativecall callbacks
 20:53
dha S29 indicates that C<fork> exists. Is that a reasonable thing to believe? 20:54
masak dha: I'd say so. 20:56
dha: how else would we fork? :P
FROGGS dha: btw: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perl_6_Progr...nty_Blocks
masak it's such a Unix thing to do.
jnthn I don't think fork is going in core, more likely in a POSIX module
dha masak - I was just going to say "you don't use windows, do you?" :-) 20:57
jnthn It's already been noted you can implement it using NativeCall
FROGGS hehe, says the Windows guys :P
FROGGS .oO( What the heck is fork? )
dha jnthn - So, no C<fork> at the moment?
20:57 zakharyas left
dha FROGGS - Is that page actually kind of up to date/accurate? 20:58
jnthn dha: Not as a sub in the core built-ins, no
FROGGS m: use NativeCall; sub fork returns int32 is native { * }; say fork
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«0␤3359␤»
FROGGS dha: see^^
jnthn But it's a 2-liner, as FROGGS++ just beat me to demonstrating :)
FROGGS dha: no idea about the updateness of that page, but I skimmed the pointy blocks section and it looked fine 20:59
dha ok, so if I was telling a Perl 5 programmer what to do with a fork in Perl 6... ?
FROGGS - ok. I'll throw that in. Thanks.
FROGGS dha: tell him to chose a better layer of abstraction? I dunno... 21:00
dha In general, that might well be a good response. In my current context, however.
..
TEttinger hm, is BEGIN present in NQP, or am I confusing it with 007 or something else? 21:01
jnthn TEttinger: NQP has a rather restricted form of BEGIN
It can only access types in the surrounding context, not ordinary variables like the full Perl 6 one can.
dha I don't believe James Bond has a BEGIN.
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TEttinger I'm wondering how to handle compile-time state for lisp macros. 21:02
smls * is the canonical way to specify a matcher that smart-matches against everything, right?
TEttinger there are only a few that this matters for though.
[Coke] dha - (how to fork) point at the code snippet FROGGS posted above. 21:03
dha Ok.
masak dha: 007 has BEGIN. 21:04
FROGGS has BEGUN* 21:05
masak $ bin/007 -e='say(2); BEGIN { say(1) }'
1
2
dha masak - I was joking. :-)
21:05 muraiki left
japhb dha: Does 'Dr. No' count? 21:05
smls m: dd all(); dd all(1) 21:06
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«all() = all()␤Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤ in any at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2917␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/iXzcW9zw6C:1␤␤»
smls ^^ dd doesn't like junctions, does it
FROGGS I bet Dr. Nō does count
japhb m: &dd.signature.say 21:07
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«(Any |)␤»
japhb smls: ^^ That's why
smls heh
dha Arguably no. www.imdb.com/title/tt0310853/
21:07 bin_005 left
japhb "American spy James Bond"?!? 21:08
21:08 bin_005 joined
geekosaur *eyeroll* 21:08
[Coke] m: DUMP(all(1)) 21:09
camelia ( no output )
[Coke] m: DUMP(all(1)).say
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«Junction<1>(␤ :$!storage(Array<2>(␤ :$!flattens(True),␤ :$!items(BOOTArray<4>(▶1)),␤ :$!nextiter(▶Mu)␤ )),␤ :$!type("all")␤)␤»
japhb does a happy dance
[Coke] m: DUMP(DUMP).say 21:10
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«Not enough positional arguments; needed at least 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/FPxnYs3xJ5:1␤␤»
[Coke] m: DUMP(&DUMP).say
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)Use of uninitialized value <element> of type Any in string context in sub DUMP at /home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm:1␤Use of uninitialized value <element> of type Any in string context in sub DUMP at /home…»
[Coke] uhoh
m: DUMP(Nil).say 21:11
camelia rakudo-moar 98e36a: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TEttinger masak: I wasn't aware that language stuff like 007 could be written in perl 6 instead of NQP, or am I mistaken by the .pm extension? 21:12
21:12 uncleyear left, uncleyear joined
masak TEttinger: it's written in Perl 6. 21:13
TEttinger: I just happen to do it the hard way. 21:14
TEttinger heh
masak handling all the parsing, compiling, AST, and runtime stuff myself.
TEttinger so NQP is easier? I would think having more features for the compiler would be nice
masak NQP is a compiler toolkit.
TEttinger ah, I did see Runtime.pm
masak I'm just saying I built my own tools instead. 21:15
thing is, it's not a lot of code.
TEttinger yep!
I think my NQP is longer than 007 right now, mostly copy pasted from rubyish and NQP's src
*think my NQP code
21:16 colomon left
dha Ok. I've made it through "f". 21:16
TEttinger nice, dha++!
21:16 FROGGS_ joined
dha Although, to be honest, I've been staring at the screen long enough that I'm not sure how good any of it is, but, hey, f!. 21:17
PerlJam dha: something is better than nothing.
It's always easier to modify and existing thing than to create a new thing
s/and/an/ 21:18
dha Yeah, I know. As I am, currently, creating a new thing. ;-)
21:18 vike joined
japhb m: &DUMP.DUMP.say # curious ... 21:19
camelia rakudo-moar 9e6641: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)Use of uninitialized value <element> of type Any in string context in block <unit> at /tmp/md707kgEe9:1␤»
21:19 FROGGS left
japhb wonders why that blows up, but is lacking cycles to trace it at the moment 21:20
21:21 FROGGS_ left 21:22 dha left
pmichaud back for a bit 21:24
21:26 Vlavv left 21:27 skids left
jnthn o/ pmichaud 21:29
pmichaud is there a link to dha++'s document from perl6.org yet? I'm thinking there ought to be.
o/ jnthn 21:30
jnthn: anything in glr-draft look especially spooky or worrying yet?
masak 'night, #perl6 21:33
pmichaud 'night, masak 21:34
lizmat good night, masak
hoelzro good night masak 21:36
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jnthn pmichaud: I didn't catch up on the latset changes yet; been tied up with my apartment/country move :) 21:36
pmichaud jnthn: no problem. 21:37
jnthn Should fine a moment for it tomorrow. :)
*find
Anything in particular you want my input on?
pmichaud not at the moment.
jnthn ok
Then I'll give it a read over and let you know
pmichaud I'm _hoping_ to be able to get iteration efficiency w/o having to deal with binder reference marking... but we may need that ultimately.
jnthn Either tomorrow, or during Friday's long train journey :) 21:38
pmichaud having the binder mark lists isn't (yet) a blocker, at any rate.
jnthn OK
I don't imagine implementing that will take me long if we do need it...provided mark means "call a method" or so
pmichaud I think I have enough of the big picture stuff down that I'll be able to commit code soonish.
I'm going to start by writing much of the GLR as a module and evaluate it there. 21:39
jnthn +2
pmichaud how goes the moving? :) 21:40
last week I had to do house stuff myself.
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jnthn Smoothly overall; it's just quite a bit of work. 21:40
In 5 years, it's possible to accumulate quite a lot of stuff.
pmichaud try 11 years. :) 21:41
jnthn Oh my... :)
pmichaud or, try 11 years with a wife + kids :)
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dalek kudo/nom: 545e69d | lizmat++ | src/core/Str.pm:
Implement substr(-rw)(Range)
 22:06
lizmat hoelzro: ^^ :-)
hoelzro \o/
lizmat++
guess I'll merge in that design PR =) 22:07
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hoelzro we should probably roast that, too 22:07
lizmat yeah, working on that 22:10
or: if you would do the honors, that would be brill as well!
necessary changes were only needed in an internal sub or so 22:11
hoelzro I can do it tonight or tomorrow 22:12
the specs changes has been written, and the docs/tests won't take long 22:13
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hoelzro s/has/have/ 22:17
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dalek c: 89c2bc8 | smls++ | lib/Type/IO/Path.pod:
Document &chmod
 22:18
c: 005b719 | smls++ | lib/Type/IO (2 files):
Merge &dir, &mkdir, &rmdir documentation into /type/IO/Path.pod

  ...where the methods of the same name are documented. Previously the sub
forms lived in /type/IO.pod. Joining them removes unnecessary duplication and makes the docs easier to navigate.
The remaining path'y subroutines in /type/IO.pod shall follow.
lizmat tonight would work for me
c: e6928eb | smls++ | WANTED:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/doc
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dalek ecs: e337b93 | hoelzro++ | S32-setting-library/Str.pod:
Propose Str.substr(Range)
 22:25
ecs: ab86846 | lizmat++ | S32-setting-library/Str.pod:
Merge branch 'substr-range'
kudo/nom: 553f0ea | lizmat++ | docs/ChangeLog:
Mention addition of Range to substr(-rw)
 22:26
lizmat and with that, I call it a night 22:27
so good night, #perl6!
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hoelzro night lizmat 22:32
jnthn o/ lizmat 22:33
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raiph .tell tony-o github.com/tony-o/perl6-template-p...e/issues/1 22:52
yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to tony-o.
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dalek c: d59d2b3 | smls++ | lib/Type/IO (2 files):
Merge &rename, &move, &unlink documentation into /type/IO/Path.pod
 23:14
hoelzro ah, thanks smls 23:21
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hoelzro it's not often that *unoptimizing* code makes it break =/ 23:41
hoelzro is looking into RT #125480 23:42
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tony-o_ raiph++ - i'll take a look at that more later 23:58
tony-o raiph: re-protone
yoleaux 22:52Z <raiph> tony-o: github.com/tony-o/perl6-template-p...e/issues/1

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