»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
Juerd Single key compose! (Well, two keys if you count compose itself) 00:00
It actually allows the arrow keys to be used. This rocks.
AlexDaniel Juerd: except that now you have to reach for arrows :)
Juerd That would be an issue if I typed arrows all the time.
AlexDaniel ←don↑'t↔←↑y→ou?↑↑←← 00:01
Juerd Not, really, no. ↑ 00:02
s/,// 00:03
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BenGoldberg m: my @a[-9999999999999999]; say +@a; 00:37
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 18366744073709551624 bytes␤»
BenGoldberg m: my @a[-9223372036854775808,-2]; say +@a
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«-9223372036854775808␤»
BenGoldberg m: my ([$a]); $a.WHAT 00:40
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
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timotimo ouch :) 00:47
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dalek Iish: 0055e68 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | / (2 files):
GLR test target
 01:37
DBIish: 3849814 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | lib/DBDish/StatementHandle.pm6:
DBIish: The GLR of DBDIsh. $sth.allrows now returns Seq
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bobby_ I was curious...what is the expected speed for P6 after it finishes the optimization phase? 02:20
I guess if Perl5 is a 1 and C++ is a 5
timotimo so, the more the faster? 02:21
bobby_ is the final speed for P6 on the MoarVM with bytecode going to be faster than P5?
yes
timotimo it already is in specific cases
sometimes really noticably so
but in many other cases, we're far behind
but also, our rationals and complex numbers are noticably faster than the ones p5 has 02:22
one thing that's slower than necessary is invocation in general
bobby_ that is pretty sweet...in layman's terms, how is it faster in some areas? I know P5 is implemented in C and so is P6 right?
timotimo that, of course, isn't pretty good
moarvm is implemented in C, that's right. pretty much all of the perl6 compiler is implemented in nqp and pretty much all of the "standard library" code is in perl6 02:23
teatime psch: hehe, I've gotten really far. including ↤ as an infix operator.
timotimo when rakudo/moar gets a single loop fully inlined without invocations, it's really fast
skids bobby_: JIT would be a distinguishing speedup gain over P5 02:24
bobby_ K, that makes sense. Ahh...forgot a/b the JIT
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skids Also, optimizeable OO to some extent already, vs. Moose. 02:25
bobby_ so when ya'll say JIT, is that similar to how C# does a JIT? If so, it'd be really nice to have in the neighborhood of that performance from a dynamic language. I guess that would require the user to make use of the gradual typing features to help the JITTER right? 02:26
skids bobby_: yes and not always... you can JIT based on runtime specialization at callsites. 02:27
bobby_ I'm fairly ignorant to how OO in P6 or Moose works behind the scenes, but my understanding is that although Moose is powerful, it is pretty slow
timotimo did you read the newest post up on "6guts"? 6guts.wordpress.com 02:28
there's one (newest or 2nd to newest) about speeding up accessors, that also compares against moose
bobby_ I thought i did, must have missed the Moose part
skids That is to say, if you notice that a particular call to a function at a certain point in the program is being called with an int, you can specialize/JIT for int and then undo the specialization if it gets called differently.
timotimo ah, yes, native ints and nums can drastically speed up things 02:29
but if you mix int and Int too much, you'll be boxing and unboxing a lot of the time
and that gives you a bit of GC pressure :)
bobby_ thanks everyone for the answers, I do find all the posts on the compiler and NQP internals to be very interesting, although hard to find info on the web without invoking ya'll directly :) 02:31
i recognize ur name by the way timotimo from the blog posts i've seen...thanks for all the work you've done
timotimo recently it's been almost exclusively lizmat who did the posts, though :)
jnthn has a few sets of slides and recorded talks up on youtube that explain stuff about the internals 02:32
bobby_ def recognize that name too lol
timotimo "the secret life of garbage collectors", for example (which i think is up on some website that hosts only talks) is pretty good
bobby_ I'll have to check it out
timotimo jnthn.net/papers/2014-yapceu-performance.pdf -t his one goes into internals, too, from a performance standpoint 02:33
bobby_ thanks!
I hope someone writes a P6 book at some point as well
I've asked around and haven't really gotten a response, although I see Brian D Foy might be working on a Learning Perl 6, although from his blog it looks like it is in super early stages. 02:34
timotimo that sounds about right
of course there's the perl6intro.com page which i suppose would be good as a pdf, too
that's only an intro, though
bobby_ Yea, I actually wrote a reddit post on how much i really like that intro today lol 02:36
timotimo that's certainly nice of you :) 02:37
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timotimo the time where perl6 would get a ton of flak by one or two people all the darn time is apparently over 02:37
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bobby_ It's awesome, but I like the concrete-lengthy examples usually done in a book, and I can't find much of anything on the MOP that isn't super complicated...I've read about how Smalltalk and CommonLisp have a MOP, but really need to dig into how it works in P6. 02:39
timotimo github.com/timo/ADT - this module is MOPy
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bobby_ sweet...pulling that up now...and glad ya'll aren't getting as much flak these days....it really looks like ya'll have a nifty language the combines the features i like in a clean way with the chances for decent performance 02:44
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timotimo it's definitely not like we don't know where our performance problems (and especially potential savings) lie 02:45
bobby_ and it looks like Jonathan is doing a good job working on those which is pretty sweet 02:47
timotimo that's right 02:48
and i'm glad TPF is accepting all those grant proposals
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bobby_ me 2...I think ya'll will get a lot of P5 converts once the majority of the P6 language has better performance 02:51
than P5 at least...I know CPAN is huge for perl users though 02:52
is there some movement to rewrite the most important modules in P6? 02:53
Hotkeys there's a most wanted modules list somewhere
github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted...modules.md
bobby_ I honestly don't know, but i figure the vast majority of dowloaded P5 modules would probably fill a list of less than 50 modules (I could be way off though :)) 02:55
If all those were recoded, it seems that there'd be less pushback....once you have an XML, CSV, JSON, datadumper, Oracle/SQLServer/POSTGRES library...that sort of thing 02:56
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Hotkeys bobby_: modules.perl6.org/ 02:58
There's quite a few of what you listed already
bobby_ good to hear, just read through the most wanted modules list u sent, there's a lot more on there than I thought lol 03:00
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timotimo there's also Inline::Perl5 03:06
bobby_ true...i guess it doesn't matter what your module is written in if you're just calling functions 03:16
anyway, thanks everyone! reading through all the material ya'll sent 03:17
timotimo Inline::Perl5 (and Inline::Python, too) allow you to derive your classes from other languages' classes, too 03:20
not just calling methods and functions
bobby_ well i was referring to if you have a P5 module, u might not care that it is in P5 and not P6 if you just want to use a few functions 03:21
*using inline
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aaafoo hello 06:08
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moritz \o 07:41
sortiz \o moritz 07:43
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RabidGravy harr! 08:30
Hotkeys Marnin 08:37
RabidGravy:
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sortiz \o RabidGravy 08:48
RabidGravy er
erp
Hotkeys You okay?
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RabidGravy fabulous! 08:49
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kaare_ If I class b is a - and a is inother file, I seem to need to use a; first? 08:50
in another
RabidGravy yes
kaare_ ok, I just can't seem to find any definition or examples for that. 08:51
Naively as a perl 5 coder, you'd probably think it would try to find the class in the lib path
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psch huh? 08:54
kaare_: you mean, if you define class B is A you want B.pm to automatically load A.pm?
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psch fwiw, p5 OO introduction examples also explicitly use the parent class... vOv 09:04
kaare_ psch: Not really sth I want. Just feels natural 09:05
psch yeah, i really don't agree with that
kaare_ And a lack of examples led me to ask 09:07
psch *that* point is probably valid... :)
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DrForr Um, if you folks promise to be gentle, 173.230.155.209/ is the start of a very much prototype Prancer-based blog. For the moment I'm just using the HTML from my Google blog, so many files are served from off-site. 09:10
RabidGravy the touchstone is that all Symbols must be defined before they are used, so you have to either define them in the compulation unit or "use" a file that does
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moritz DrForr: looks nice 09:30
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DrForr Thanks, but that's mostly due to Google :) Everything I serve is coming directly from Prancer, including images, to prove that it handles more than HTML. It's got session management and templates, and most content is served from dynamic routes. 09:33
Incidentally, I haven't checked. Is it possible to create dynamic variables such as $*foo in a separate namespace, or is that missing the point? I rather suspect the latter. 09:34
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psch m: module Foo { our $*FOO }; Foo::<$*FOO>++; say Foo::<$*FOO> 09:36
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«1␤»
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RabidGravy yeah I think I have an "our $*FOO" in some code somewhere 09:38
DrForr I wanted to be able to keep Prancer variables in a separate namespace so they don't collide. I'd probably have a short name, or abbreviate to $*S or something. 09:39
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DrForr Actually, on further consideration I'd probably have a singleton object that uses the private Prancer::<$*S> variable, that way I can hide it in a separate namespace. 09:47
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dalek osystem: 054ce6a | titsuki++ | META.list:
Add Algorithm::SetUnion to ecosystem

See github.com/titsuki/p6-Algorithm-SetUnion		 09:56
osystem: 357d05b | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #175 from titsuki/add-setunion

Add Algorithm::SetUnion to ecosystem
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RabidGravy another week and *still* no-one has made an HTTP Digest auth module 10:06
tsk, slackers
DrForr I'll probably get around to it at some stage once I'm finished with other random work :) 10:07
RabidGravy I'm sorta kinda blocking on it with Sofa (or using it as an excuse to get distracted,) 10:08
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DrForr Though it apparently relies on MD5 which IIRC is broken under a birthday attack. Not sure if that matters in this case. 10:13
RabidGravy I think that the choice of algorithm is pluggable, it's just MD5 is the most common 10:14
DrForr Yah, noted that as well upon reading. 10:15
RabidGravy I ought to pull the (partial) OAuth implementation out of the soundcloud module 10:16
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DrForr I've got to get around to doing OAuth (er, OpenID - OAuth doesn't actually do what @mgmt guessed it would do) for blogs.perl.org. 10:17
RabidGravy hasn't OpenID gone away now?
DrForr That's one of the thngs I need to look at. When the spec got written up someone stuck OpenAuth in, and as it is it took me 3 weeks to get across the point that OpenAuth wasn't what was needed or meant. 10:19
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DrForr m: 259-70 10:24
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/TjzdbipzFL:␤Useless use of "-" in expression "259-70" in sink context (line 1)␤»
DrForr m: 259 - 70 10:25
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/Lfwml343Ab:␤Useless use of "-" in expression "259 - 70" in sink context (line 1)␤»
DrForr m: say 259 - 70
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«189␤»
DrForr Sorry for the noise.
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dbohdan Has anyone were used Perl 6 on the JVM for a (public) web application? How mature is it? 10:26
DrForr Not JVM, no. Moar is currently sitting at 173.230.155.209/ where I'm checking out speed. 10:28
Well, allow me to rephrase. I haven't used JVM for that, others may have. 10:29
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dbohdan Hmm. I get a Blogspot blog at that IP on port 80. 10:29
RabidGravy correct
DrForr Yep. I'm using my blog's content to test. 10:30
dbohdan Is the content pre-downloaded or does it act as a proxy?
FROGGS DrForr: the last char is a typo right? "INSERT INTO tag VALUES( 4, 'Dancer' ); -- 2 -> (2 * 2) == 4<" 10:31
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DrForr Pre-downloaded, run through Prancer. It's handling static and dynamic content where I've changed links to point to localhost. Lots of it resides on other servers. 10:31
FROGGS in 173.230.155.209/2016/02/from-regula...pt_13.html
DrForr FROGGS: Probably. The original is on the actual blogspot site, it might not have the bug. 10:32
RabidGravy maybe someone ought to make a "Powered by Perl 6" badge ;-) 10:33
DrForr It's just a heavily hand-edited version of the site so I can have a few different URLs to work with.
FROGGS the html content is served quite fast I'd say
DrForr Yeah, it wasn't running all that great on my VM so I thought I'd put it up on my Linode.
FROGGS RabidGravy: or a ribbon that points to perl6.org/downloads? :o)
RabidGravy :) 10:34
FROGGS "Made with Love and Perl 6"
DrForr If someone wants to make up one I'd be happy to put it on the pages.
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dbohdan DrForr: I see. Here are the response times I'm getting: chunk.io/f/c4db0f66bf254ad7826d03be2ce9c098 10:34
DrForr It's only temporary anyway... so he says. 10:35
I do intend to save everything to localhost and point links locally so everything gets served out of Prancer, but that's going to be next week after I finish writing and giving talks. 10:36
RabidGravy I really ought to try and compile on my FreeBSD vm at some point, last time I tried it didn't work due to some compiler thing
DrForr dbohdan: Nice. The original content is at theperlfisher.blogspot.ro - What timings are you getting there? 10:37
dbohdan DrForr: One moment. 10:38
DrForr No hurry. I'm going to be called away to get lunch here in a few moments as it is. Tex-Mex is hard to find here... nom nom nom.
And *CRAP*, I should have brought my hot sauce. 10:39
dbohdan chunk.io/f/9f9756af6d1144d195a06296869b983c
RabidGravy I've got a bottle of some monstrous scotch bonnet sauce in the kitchen 10:42
dbohdan (Note that in my case I was redirected to theperlfisher.blogspot.nl. I am not in the Netherlands; it's a quirk with my ISP.)
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dalek osystem: 5872adc | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
Add Audio::PortMIDI

See github.com/jonathanstowe/Audio-PortMIDI		 11:07
RabidGravy there, another one bites the dust 11:08
have fun
tadzik, ^
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tadzik \o/ 11:14
awesome!
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perlawhirl hi perlers 11:17
lizmat perlawhirl o/ 11:18
perlawhirl so... grammars. if i have a bunch of 'sections' : START Title \n [ <bunch of stuff> \n ]* END Title \n 11:19
how do i capture the first 'Title' to use it as the capture for the END Title
something like START <title=.word> [...] END $<title> 11:20
i should have said .. how to i capture the first 'Title' and use it to MATCH the END Title 11:21
i don't really need to capture the END on again :D just match on it
psch m: grammar G { token TOP { :my @*TITLES; <start-title> <TOP> <end-title> || .+ }; token start-title { START ' ' $<title=\w+> { @*TITLES.push: $<title> } }; token end-title { END ' ' <?{ @*TITLES[@*TITLES] }> { @*TITLES.pop } } }; say G.parse: "START foo\nbla\nEND foo" 11:25
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«｢START foo␤bla␤END foo｣␤»
psch that's probably already overkill
should be able to deal with nested titles though, i think
m: grammar G { token TOP { :my @*TITLES; <start-title> <TOP> <end-title> || .+ }; token start-title { START ' ' $<title=\w+> { @*TITLES.push: $<title> } }; token end-title { END ' ' <?{ @*TITLES[@*TITLES] }> { @*TITLES.pop } } }; say G.parse: "START foo\nSTART barbla\nEND bar\nEND foo"
camelia rakudo-moar 1bbef9: OUTPUT«｢START foo␤START barbla␤END bar␤END foo｣␤»
psch hm, yeah, kinda-sorta
perlawhirl: should definitely get you started, i hope :) 11:26
anchoring in start-title and end-title might already take care of the hiccup there
perlawhirl cool yep... thanks psch!
psch actually, duh 11:27
it would have a $<title> in the Match if it actually went there :/
DrForr dbohdan: Thanks, any information like that is useful. 11:30
psch perlawhirl: yeah, maybe it works as a first approach, but there's something missing... :) 11:31
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perlawhirl actually it works pretty much as i thought... ie: START <title=.word> \n <line>* END \s+ $<title> \n 11:33
i just had an error in my initial capture which meant it wasn't matching the end properly
psch perlawhirl: oh, yeah. i was thinking across multiple tokens...
arnsholt Yeah, I was about to remark that just doing $<title> should work 11:34
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perlawhirl you're right in thinking that, though... i should probably be on the lookout for any nested sections in my data that would require a more careful solution 11:34
so thanks is still in order psch, for making me think more about errors that i might encounter in the future :D
dbohdan DrForr: You're welcome. I can run a brief stress test on your server with siege(1) if you'd like. 11:37
DrForr Hold that thought, let me get some other bits of work starightened out first. 11:40
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dbohdan Is Perl 6 generally faster on the JVM (once it's had the time to warm up) or on the MoarVM? 11:42
arnsholt I don't think so, in general 11:43
moritz dbohdan: I know of no recent benchmarks comparing the two
DrForr I haven't done comparisons myself, wouldn't know.
RabidGravy I would also guess that they may be individually faster for different things 11:45
dbohdan The most recent comparison I have found is t.h8.lv/p6bench/2015-01-30-six_mont...akudo.html
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RabidGravy over a year is a looooOOoooong time in rakudo land 11:52
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jnthn There's daily Perl 6 bench runs at www.moarvm.org/measurements/perl6-bench/ though they don't include JVM figures 12:00
lizmat jnthn o/ 12:03
that's because JVM currently basically doesn't run :-( 12:04
psch yeah, it kinda hobbles, doesn't it..? :S
plus not-6.c-compliant probably 12:05
lizmat currently working on making it at least come past "make test" unscathed
dbohdan Oh. 12:06
lizmat but boy, does it take long to build the settings on the JVM :-(
reminds me of the parrot days
psch lizmat: fwiw, the interop tests pass with the jvminterop branch
lizmat: i haven't merged it yet 'cause the tests are way too few, though 12:07
lizmat psch: good to know
atm, all of the nativecall tests fail because of a problem in BUILD_LEAST_DERIVED
alas, the line number in the stack trace points to a die, but the message comes from somewhere else 12:10
Cannot access a native attribute as a reference attribute
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jnthn lizmat: heh, and JVM actually built faster than Parrot too, as I remember it ;) 12:14
lizmat jnthn: any pointers on that error message ^^^ ? 12:15
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jnthn lizmat: Probably means some code is carelessly doing getattr/bindattr in a place it should do getattr_[ins]/bindattr_[ins] 12:17
lizmat: And JVM doesn't yet manage to make those cases work out 12:18
(It'll need to eventually if we want to do things like compact structs)
lizmat but those mostly fail on MoarVM also, no ?
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DrForr dbohdan: Well, the application hasn't fallen over yet. Go ahead and fire up siege, point it at the / and a /search?foo URL if you don't mind. 12:27
jnthn lizmat: "It depends". In either case you don't tend to be very helpful results. :) 12:29
lizmat ? 12:30
jnthn m: class A { has int $.x }; nqp::getattr_i(A.new(x => 42), A, '$!x').WHAT.say 12:31
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/uu3V4_jF3z␤Could not find nqp::getattr_i, did you forget 'use nqp;' ?␤at /tmp/uu3V4_jF3z:1␤------> 3nqp::getattr_i(A.new(x => 42), A, '$!x')7⏏5.WHAT.say␤»
jnthn m: use nqp; class A { has int $.x }; nqp::getattr_i(A.new(x => 42), A, '$!x').WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
jnthn m: use nqp; class A { has int $.x }; nqp::getattr(A.new(x => 42), A, '$!x').WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«(int)␤»
jnthn You end up with *that*, which is a freak boxed form of a native type. :)
Back to $dayjob meeting... & 12:32
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RabidGravy right let's see what you lot broke in the last week 12:37
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travis-ci Rakudo build failed. Elizabeth Mattijsen 'Correct error message 12:49
travis-ci.org/rakudo/rakudo/builds/117434353 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/compare/0...36eb73b912
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RabidGravy Grr, my ancient gcc on this here FreeBSD vm doesn't like "-Wno-logical-op-parentheses" 12:52
is there anyway I can turn this off? 12:53
lizmat RabidGravy: no idea, maybe moritz FROGGS have an idea ?
FWIW, I the Travis build failure is because it cannot install perl 5.14 ?? 12:54
RabidGravy well I can move on by editing the moarvm Makefile by hand, but that's far from ideal 12:57
lizmat RabidGravy: the generator files live in tools/build/Makefile- 12:58
moritz RabidGravy: do you expect anything more actionable than "install a newer gcc"? :-) 12:59
RabidGravy I'd love to but ;-p
I really ought to upgrade the whole VM but currently it's running an EOLed FreeBSD so upgrading part of it no worky 13:01
FROGGS RabidGravy: we should probe for its support and add it conditionally... 13:03
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FROGGS RabidGravy: but wait... this warning is enabled for clang only 13:05
RabidGravy: you said you're running gcc? 13:06
RabidGravy yep
gfldex you could try a shellscript wrapper that dropps that argument
RabidGravy it totally fails to guess the right compiler so I have to tell it to use gcc ecplicitly 13:07
FROGGS RabidGravy: hmmm, so let's fix that problem instead 13:08
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FROGGS ahh yes, clang seems to be the default for freebsd (looking at the bottom of build/setup.pm) 13:09
RabidGravy this is an ancient, now EOL Freebsd it's probably not worth fixing too hard TBH 13:11
jnthn iirc, gcc doesn't need that flag at all 'cus it doesn't whine about it 13:14
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RabidGravy on the other hand, having fixed that manually it otherwise compiles and runs okay 13:19
[jns@jail0133 ~]$ perl6 -e 'say $*KERNEL' 13:20
freebsd (8.4.RELEASE.p.4)
and in other news you have successfully avoided breaking any of my modules this week :) 13:22
sortiz Now I understand why DBDish::mysql lacks prepared statements... yet 13:23
moritz sortiz: iirc nativecall wasn't powerful enough back when I took over DBIish from mberends 13:24
sortiz moritz, That C API is ugly ;-) 13:25
moritz sortiz: that's related, yes. It was powerful enough for postgres and sqlite3 prepared statements :-) 13:26
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sortiz moritz, After the ODBC experience, now working btw, mysql will not be left behind. 13:29
Azry could someone explain me why this code fails? : class a { has $.c is rw; }; class b is a { submethod BUILD(:$!c = "t"){ } }; b.new; 13:31
DrForr "It will, however, be dragged kicking and screaming." 13:32
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[Coke] m: class a { has $.c is rw; }; class b is a { submethod BUILD(:$!c = "t"){ } }; b.new; 13:35
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/xWbfiopyrz␤Attribute $!c not declared in class b␤at /tmp/xWbfiopyrz:1␤------> 3 is a { submethod BUILD(:$!c = "t"){ } }7⏏5; b.new;␤ expecting any of:␤ horizontal whitespace␤ p…»
jnthn Azry: Because attributes are private to a class. You should be writing the initialization of $!c inside of class a
Azry: Inheritance doesn't leak attributes from base classes in Perl 6, to help prevent tight coupling between subclasses and their base classes.
gfldex m: class a { has $.c is rw; }; class b is a { method new(){ my $o = self.bless; $o.c = "t" } }; dd b.new; 13:37
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«"t"␤»
gfldex m: class a { has $.c is rw; }; class b is a { method new(){ my $o = self.bless; $o.c = "t"; $o } }; dd b.new; 13:38
camelia rakudo-moar a136eb: OUTPUT«b.new(c => "t")␤»
lucasb submethod BUILD(:$c = ...) { self.c = $c } # a workaround maybe. but idk if it's very clean
gfldex jnthn: i'm pretty sure that's a tight coupling. It's quite explicit tho.
RabidGravy does a backup 13:39
jnthn self.bless(c => "t") works just as well for that case 13:41
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Azry Is there always a better method than writing a "new" method for a class ? I think i read that i should use BUILD/BUILDALL 13:43
jnthn Azry: What are you trying to do? If you just want to set a default value for an attribute then the best thing is just has $.c = 't'; 13:44
Azry: As a rule, though, a BUILD submethod is for initialization of attributes in the current class (and you write a submethod BUILD for each class that needs it), and a custom new method is if you want to present a different public constructor interface than "a bunch of named parameters" 13:45
Azry I'm trying to add a different .new to a class which inherits from IO::Handle 13:46
so i want to initialize IO::Handle path parameter if the .new is empty for example 13:47
jnthn Sounds like you want to just be writing that differnet new method then 13:48
Azry oh ok, i just thought i read somewhere that i should avoid that, but i will try that with your explanations, thanks =) 13:49
RabidGravy you should avoid it in the absence of any other way of doing what you want to do 13:50
jnthn I see it more as differnet tools for different problems
RabidGravy er except in the absence
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sortiz RabidGravy, I have a solution for the CArray of CStructs problem, needed for MYSQL_BIND 13:52
timotimo yeah, you can turn each CStruct into a CPointer and memcpy 13:53
RabidGravy kewl 13:55
sortiz timotimo, Better yet. ;-)
stmuk RabidGravy: I thought the gcc (rather than clang) detection of FreeBSD 8.4 was fixed? 13:57
timotimo oh hey stmuk 13:58
sortiz timotimo, Want to see in action? github.com/salortiz/NativeHelpers-...-cstruct.t 13:59
stmuk RabidGravy: 7a99212 in MoarVM should have worked (although I can't remember if I actually tested it or not)
RabidGravy dunno, I actually have a little wrapper that explicitly sets the cc so that may have confused it 14:00
timotimo oh, interesting 14:01
why is there a TypedPointer in there? 14:02
is that any different from Pointer[Foo]?
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sortiz Nop, its *the* Pointer[Foo]:D of the first element. 14:03
timotimo ah, i guess 14:04
ah, at first i thought it was a type
because of how it's capitalized
sortiz yep, the final names should be lowercase. 14:05
timotimo definitely something good-to-have 14:08
also, we'll have something for that in core at some point :)
14:09 ab6tract joined
ab6tract o/ #perl6 14:10
RabidGravy boo
ab6tract i found this benchmark produced confusing results: gist.github.com/ab5tract/2e0928088ea1f4059767
RabidGravy another external drive bites the dust
timotimo ugh 14:11
ab6tract was testing "bigint" performance vs perl5
and it seems that parallelization actually hurts the run time
timotimo ab6tract: i wonder what happens when you use brace-less while in there
ab6tract timotimo: how do you mean? and wouldn't thunking make things slower? 14:12
timotimo that's not thunking
stmuk ab6tract: have you tried restricting the size of the thread pool?
timotimo i mean $ret = $ret +| (1 +< (@ids[$c] - 1)) while $c++ < +@ids 14:13
and i wonder how much you'll save by getting +@ids up front
jnthn ab6tract: Do you have 4 cores?
ab6tract jnthn: i'm running this on a 24 core box :) 14:14
jnthn ok :)
jnthn is trying it locally
ab6tract: I get nearly factor of 2 speed-up on parallel: gist.github.com/jnthn/72f214ec027fae4aa881 14:15
ab6tract jnthn: very curious :/
RabidGravy at times like this "fsck -f -c" seems to be in order 14:16
ab6tract jnthn: i get the opposite result! gist.github.com/jnthn/72f214ec027fae4aa881
(left my numbers as comment)
nine I get 8 seconds for sequential and 10 seconds for parallel
jnthn Odd
ab6tract nine: that's about what i get on my laptop
jnthn tries it again 14:17
Got the same result again
Within noise
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timotimo i get 9.3 and 5.9 14:18
ab6tract jnthn: are you testing on windows?
jnthn yup
timotimo: 9.3 seq, 5.9 parallel?
nine Odd. Especially since the parallel version uses 400 % CPU.
timotimo aye
jnthn So faster parallel for you too
I bet you're not on Windows? :)
timotimo correct
and one of my 4 cores was busy displaying video content
jnthn ab6tract, nine, timotimo: CPU?
14:19 vendethiel joined
ab6tract "This is MoarVM version 2016.03 built with JIT support" 14:19
jnthn (Intel Core i7 quad core, HT enabled here)
perlawhirl :q
jnthn ab6tract: Same here
nine Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700MQ CPU @ 2.40GHz
14:19 rhr left
ab6tract "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2640 0 @ 2.50GHz" 14:19
14:20 perlawhirl left
stmuk I get 11 seq and 7 parallel Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2520M CPU @ 2.50GHz 14:20
ab6tract oldie but goldie ;)
timotimo model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570 CPU @ 3.40GHz
wowza
23.44% self/children time spent inside MVM_fixed_size_alloc, says perf report 14:21
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jnthn timotimo: Yeah, with caller being allocate_frame, no doubt? :) 14:21
timotimo how do i get perf report to say that ..
jnthn Dunno, I usually callgrind stuff
Or the VS profiler 14:22
If I had to take a wild guess though: MoarVM creates contention in places it eventually shouldn't, and that upsets some CPU architectures/caches more than others. 14:23
timotimo cachegrind spits out "brk segment overflow" a whole bunch of times o_O
jnthn o.O
fireartist fwiw, I get 6.2, 7.6 on a 4core windows desktop - if I change it to 3 threads, I get 6.2, 4.7
nine Upgraded MoarVM and nqp to master and rakudo to nom and now I'm at 7.769326 serial, vs. 6.855778 parallel!
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jnthn Interesting. 14:25
[Coke] (still waiting on valgrind...)
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jnthn should keep this one around as a benchmark to try after various of his planned Moar improvements... :) 14:25
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ab6tract jnthn: please do :D 14:26
fireartist: don't forget to bump the number of times bigpackids gets called :) 14:27
timotimo heh heh heh
nine Btw. I get 9.8 seconds for the "parallel" version with a single thread. So about 2 seconds penalty just for running this on a different thread.
timotimo wow. how does that scale if you make the workload itself bigger? 14:28
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nine It seems to be 20 % overhead. Scaling it down 10 fold reduced the difference to 0.2 seconds 14:28
timotimo and scaling it up? :) 14:29
nine running
timotimo can that be the overhead we get from having to lock to increase/decrease references to frames
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nine (sequential): 41.9691964, (parallel): 53.7649131 14:31
with 50_000 iterations
jnthn timotimo: Maybe, though perhaps also GC orchestration overhead 14:32
lizmat fwiw: (sequential): 9.8104622 (parallel): 6.88002807
timotimo oh, hmm
i haven't spent many brain-cycles on gc orchestration at all
sortiz 6.10 seq 5.06 parallel on Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4790 CPU @ 3.60GHz
nine Sweet spot seems to be running 3 threads. We're already worse than sequential at 5 threads 14:34
fireartist ab6tract: dumb mistake; yes, when I run the correct number of tests, parallel is a couple tenths/sec slower for both 2 or 3 threads 14:35
ab6tract data point: python 2.7 can do 100,000 in around 7 seconds :(
nine Isn't it lovely that we're actually looking at scalability here and not at making it work at all?
lizmat fwiw: at 50000: (sequential): 51.6682107 (parallel): 31.5795883
ab6tract nine: true! :D
timotimo :) 14:37
ab6tract: we're not 10x slower :) 14:38
RabidGravy I guess the external disk was a bit chilly
bit of exercise and it's all good
timotimo huh. 14:39
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travis-ci Rakudo build passed. Elizabeth Mattijsen 'Add testing of native str arrays' 14:41
travis-ci.org/rakudo/rakudo/builds/117455433 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/compare/a...6d4b5d30e8
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perlpilot Should travis-ci be on #p6dev (if it's going to be anywhere) 14:43
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timotimo good idea 14:45
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timotimo moritz jumped right on that :D 14:47
moritz done
for rakudo and nqp
easy karma :-)
timotimo do we want the rest there, too? i'd say docs and examples can also go there 14:48
even though they are less developer-centric, the travis messages are less interesting to general users
moritz no idea 14:49
hm
imho they can stay here
I see #p6dev really as language and compiler development
awwaiid I'm ok either way (as a doc contributor)
moritz docs and examples are fine here
timotimo shall DBIish's dalek output move to #p6dev, btw?
moritz (until gets spammy)
timotimo ah
awwaiid well. doc is pretty important for the language imo :)
jnthn I think DEIish can stay here, I think
*DBI 14:50
Agree on docs/examples too
(Staying here)
awwaiid works for me
jnthn It's not a statement of importance.
awwaiid Yeah, my comment was silly :)
jnthn Just one of scope. :)
awwaiid yep
dbohdan DrForr: I'm back. I'll fire up siege in a couple minutes. 14:51
timotimo almost 1s to send out index.html ... :\ 14:52
sortiz jnthn, Agree, I see DBIish as a lib that stay here, for the users. 14:54
timotimo it's also sensible to keep dalek and travis output close to the people who are most likely to contribute to those parts
so yeah, agreed on all points
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dbohdan Running `siege -c 25 -b -t 2m -f urls`. 14:56
Where urls are / and /search?foo on the server. 14:57
Looks like the server's down. 14:58
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timotimo heh heh 14:59
DrForr Weird. 15:01
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pmurias [Coke]: did the TPF contact you in regards to being grant manager? 15:02
DrForr dbohdan: Server's restarted, I'm not sure what happened. 15:03
timotimo you didn't get any output?
pmurias [Coke]: I'll write the grant progress (later today or tommorow) once I'll finish the closure serialization and wrap up the work on nqp-js-on-js 15:05
lizmat pmurias: would be great to have at least on blog post for the Perl 6 weekly this week :-) 15:06
*one
RabidGravy I don't think I'll have time to make any new modules 15:07
sena_kun Hi folks. Is behavoir of rakudo with a C-libs changed lately? I found some module which I want to patch and reference to library like "libfoo" fails with error "I can't find liblibfoo", but with plain old "foo" it compiles perfectly. Is it an error of author of module or reference to shared library with "libfoo" was valid before?
jnthn lizmat: When will the weekly be? :) 15:08
stmuk sena_kun: yes it changed in exactly that way
timotimo uh-oh, jnthn has something planned? :D
RabidGravy that's been changed since at least November
lizmat in about 7 hours at the latest
[Coke] pmurias: no, of course they didn't 15:09
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sena_kun stmuk, thanks, I'll patch it then. Some old compiler this guy has... 15:09
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jnthn timotimo: No, I just had visiting family this weekend, so didn't get my usual Sunday afternoon write-up-the-last-week slot :) 15:11
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timotimo ah, understood 15:12
oh, i don't think i mentioned, i started writing a qt app that's supposed to let you explore the heap and such. the only thing it does right now is parse my own format into lists of things, but iiuc you've got a different format in mind, and also some extra data your locally patched code spits out? 15:13
jnthn Wednesday is carved out as all day Perl 6/MoarVM hacking this week. And I'll have some bits of other days too. :)
pmurias [Coke]: I just meant in regard to having suggested you as grant manager ;) the blog posts are supposed to be biweekly so I have a day left for that
jnthn timotimo: Yeah, I'll get that lot cleaned up/pushed soonish
timotimo OK
how dramatically different is your format?
jnthn timotimo: I didn't actually have time to look at yours yet, sorry. 15:14
Was going to do that though to see if there's anything I should steal :)
kaare_ developers are allowed to have families now? omg, what's next?!
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moritz otherwise they can't reproduce :-) 15:16
(insert appropriate XKCD here)
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timotimo oh, hehe 15:17
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timotimo well, it's basically a "a line starts with a signifier of what it is" kind of deal, except for the string heap, which really should also have a signifier set up for it 15:17
so "[ stringheap", "r 0,0,0;1,1,1;2,2,2;..." and "c 1,2,3,4,5,6;2,3,4,5,6,7;..."
also comments with # 15:18
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[Coke] pmurias: yes, that's how I read it - no, I have heard nothing about your grant or managing it at any point since you submitted. 15:22
RabidGravy right, reboot for upgrade ahoy
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jnthn [Coke]: hehe, I wonder if you're my GM without knowing it too ;) 15:23
[Coke] jnthn: very possible!
jnthn timotimo: I JSON the string heap and then the rest is a line-based format 15:24
timotimo: So it's easy to line-parse it and then only further split those up if they're interesting to look at (for example, you may want to look at only certain snapshots) 15:25
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lizmat m: my int @a = ^5; @a = (); @a[4] = 22; say @a.join(":") # hmmm... 15:32
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«0:1:2:3:22␤»
lizmat m: my int @a = ^5; @a = (); say @a.join(":"); @a[4] = 22; say @a.join(":") 15:33
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«␤0:1:2:3:22␤»
lizmat jnthn: would you consider this a bug or a feature? :-)
stmuk It's a BugFeature type! 15:36
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jnthn lizmat: I think we'll call that one a bug :) 15:37
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lizmat bbiab 15:41
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dbohdan DrForr: I can't reach it (100% request failure). Maybe something in siege's headers brings it down before it can send even one response? 15:48
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timotimo jnthn: in my use case it's probably more work to include a json parser than to just give each string a tiny prefix 15:53
but yeah, sounds like we're using similar approaches 15:54
sena_kun Just bumped into "a JSON string ought to be a list or an object" with panda when tried to install package. Reinstalling of panda is the only true answer? 15:56
Can give a backtrace of error if needed. 15:57
timotimo maybe something has an invalid META.info/META6.json?
sena_kun timotimo, I tried it with the old package, got the error, then tried to reproduce it with new(my) package and error is still here. It seems this old package broke guts of panda. I will try to rewrite META6.json of this old package and try with reinstalled panda... 15:59
timotimo oh lord, that's a bad failure state
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[Coke] sena_kun: if you're trying to upgrade past the 2015.12 release, it's quite possible that's going to be rough. 16:01
sena_kun [Coke], I upgraded to latest rakudo(from 2016.02) maybe a few days ago, then upgrade panda today. Will try with fresh install now. 16:02
s/upgrade/upgraded/ 16:04
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nine -win 41 16:08
timotimo that's almost two times as many windows as i have :\ 16:09
nine When did KDE start forgetting application keyboard layout settings again? This was fixed already :/
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Sucess Ayyo 16:23
sena_kun I catched this bug again and I know a way to reproduce it. My way is to the panda's issues now, right? 16:29
timotimo sounds about right
sena_kun Okay... 16:30
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dalek osystem: 0a64683 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
META.info is now META6.json for ncoding::Huffman::PP6
 16:47
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pmurias lizmat: when will Perl 6 be writte this week? 17:15
lizmat I expect to post it in about 5 hours 17:16
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pmurias I'll get to work on the grant progress raport then ;) 17:17
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lizmat pmurias: cool! 17:18
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[Coke] pmurias++ 17:41
jnthn is working on his too ;) 17:42
[Coke] jnthn++
sena_kun "const char*" can be represented as plain Str?
Stop, should look at the docs first... 17:43
jnthn sena_kun: Yeah, or you can pass a Buf if you want "binary" data. Otherwise the Str you pass is encoded to utf8 (and there's a trait to tweak that :)) 17:44
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cognominal @all-stars-bloggers>>++ 17:44
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sena_kun jnthn, thanks, already found it at the docs. Still not used to search there. :/ 17:45
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lizmat is going to see whether London has fallen 18:02
and after that complete the P6W
afk until then&
18:05 sena_kun left
timotimo london bridge is falling down? 18:07
gfldex timotimo: see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Has_Fallen 18:08
timotimo oh 18:09
tadzik hello from mal-moo! \o/ 18:10
jnthn I'm not sure I ever saw any cows there... :)
tadzik they may be mal-functioning 18:12
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Skarsnik Hello 18:16
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perigrin lizmat: it gets up again, nobody gonna keep it down. 18:24
geekosaur had been thinking fallenlondon.storynexus.com/ 18:25
cognominal London has fallen but Damas still holds ? The difference between scare propaganda and reality is that many syrian towns are *really* mostly ruins 18:27
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RabidGravy eugh 18:45
dha That doesn't sound good. 18:46
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RabidGravy I spent half an hour tryiing to work out why my laptop wasn't getting a dhcp address 18:46
18:46 musiKk_ left
RabidGravy the router was refusing to give it the one from an old lease 18:47
bad networks,bad! bad!
dha And who set up the network? 18:50
RabidGravy magic network fairies
I just upgraded fedora, I think dhclient tried to re-use the lease from before the upgrade 18:51
skids has been called the network "guy", "pro", "admin", and "wiz", but never the network "fairy". What I'm supposed to be looking under people's laptops for baby teeth? 18:53
dha skids - yes.
skids If it has the same mac and same client-identifier that should not be a problem. Likely the client-identifier changed. 18:54
RabidGravy yeah I think that's what happened 18:56
it changed the name of the nic over the upgrade for some reason
18:56 yqt left
skids bleeding edge dhcpd can ignore the client-id if you have no use for it (e.g. dual booting) 18:57
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Skarsnik RabidGravy, did you already tried to create fake directshow device on windows? 19:16
RabidGravy no, I haven't touched a computer running windows for over a year :) 19:17
well I might have touched one inadvertently but not with a view to actually using it
masak .oO( I haven't touched [a computer running Windows for over a year] ) :P 19:22
RabidGravy Oooh a new bit if hotness in fedora 23 though 19:25
you can mount the google drive of an authenticated google account in nautilus :)
stmuk hasn't touched a RPM based linux system in a year :P 19:27
Skarsnik ah nice 19:28
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hankache good * 19:34
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nic_ p6: say "Hello" 19:37
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«Hello␤»
nic_ p6: subset tmp of int where * < 5 19:38
camelia ( no output )
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timotimo skids: you're supposed to look under the user's pillow for broken-off ethernet cable clips :) 20:03
you know, the little things that make sure the cable stays in
the ones that always break off :(
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RabidGravy boo! 20:11
*must not start any more modules until I've finished some more* 20:12
but that ecasound control interface looks mighty temptung 20:14
timotimo i have no idea what that even means :)
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jnthn Phew, I got my weekly report done in time for the p6weekly: 6guts.wordpress.com/2016/03/21/a-w...p-of-work/ 21:09
lizmat: ^^ :)
lizmat jnthn++
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lucs say "｢?-1 ?-2｣" ⋯ for qw< a-1 a-2 b-1 b-2 ⋯ n-1 n-2 >; # How to work with groups of two? 21:13
Um, just <⋯>, right.
moritz lucs: for <list> -> $a, $b { ... }
lucs Ah, cool. 21:14
Thanks
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arnsholt jnthn: As a comment on "a topic for another day", yes, I am now curious how a modern reachability GC works now =) 21:21
moritz m: say 'a' .. 'f' -> $a, $b { say "$a:$b" }
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Ye0Q7oxiK1␤Unexpected block in infix position (missing statement control word before the expression?)␤at /tmp/Ye0Q7oxiK1:1␤------> 3say 'a' .. 'f'7⏏5 -> $a, $b { say "$a:$b" }␤ expecting any of…»
moritz m: for 'a' .. 'f' -> $a, $b { say "$a:$b" }
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«a:b␤c:d␤e:f␤»
21:21 musiKk_ left
moritz jnthn++ # blog post, optimization work 21:22
21:28 Ven left 21:30 Ven joined 21:31 dha left 21:37 espadrine joined 21:39 wamba left
jnthn :) 21:40
arnsholt: I expect to cover some of it in follow-up posts :)
arnsholt \o/ 21:41
El_Che jnthn: yeah, always interesting to read. If that architect thing doesn't work out, you could always try writer ;)
jnthn ;-)
jnthn thinks he'll try sleeper next :)
'night, #perl6
.oO( no, no, don't make a "sleeper in training" pun, just go to bed! )
 21:42
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moritz Stage parse : 58.294 # new laptop makes rakudo hacking fun again :-) 21:43
lizmat good night, jnthn
moritz 16GB RAM, don't have to stop firefox to compile rakudo :-)
El_Che moritz: that's not decandently a high number any more. Probably by next year, the raspberry pi will have as much ram :) (I love the 16gb on my machine too) 21:47
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Xliff Hi! I'm a Perl5 coder making the move to Perl 6. I have a question about one of the examples found on perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/07-rules.html 21:51
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Xliff Particularly... wouldn't the following expression return false? 21:51
'abcdefg' ~~ m/(.(.)) (e | bla ) $<foo> = (.) / 21:52
FROGGS m: say 'abcdefg' ~~ m/(.(.)) (e | bla ) $<foo> = (.) /
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«｢cdef｣␤ 0 => ｢cd｣␤ 0 => ｢d｣␤ 1 => ｢e｣␤ foo => ｢f｣␤»
FROGGS no, why should it
?
Xliff I guess I'm being thrown by the "= (.)" part
FROGGS $<foo>=... is a named capture 21:53
arnsholt That's just syntax to name a capture
FROGGS so it is not part of the matched text
Xliff slaps forehead.
OK. Thanks.
arnsholt Same as (?<foo> ...) in Perl 5
FROGGS m: 'abcdefg' ~~ m/(.(.)) (e | bla ) $<foo> = (.) /; say $<foo> 21:54
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«｢f｣␤»
arnsholt But less ugly and more readable =)
Xliff Yeah. Readable when you pick up on how things should be read... =)
My perl5 brain wanted "abcdefg = 1" .... 21:55
FROGGS aye :o)
psch Xliff: design.perl6.org/S05.html#Extensib...t;...>) is a good primer
Xliff: i don't know how good the docs regarding regex on doc.perl6.org are, but those would be preferable
Xliff pach: I'm going through perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6 in order... 21:56
psch goes to check
the docs only list all the possible usages of < > in regex, but don't group them quite as nice 21:57
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psch well, at least that's my opinion :) 21:57
Xliff pach: And yes, that link looks to be chock full of information, but quite... dry
I'm trying to ease into it.
One of the step by step tutorials I was trying to read slipped into German mid-document!!! 21:58
psch Xliff: it's not an 'a'... :)
gfldex Be warned. Trying to ease into Perl 6 may take you 15 years. :->
Xliff www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ial_part_2
gfldex: I've been using Perl for over 20.... so that's par for the course. ;) 21:59
TimToady still wonders what he's gonna do when he grows up...
diakopter watch the Warriors
moritz TimToady: you might have missed your chance already
TimToady no, I'm pretty sure we have the Warriors recorded :) 22:01
Xliff Warriors? You aren't talking Basketball, are you? 22:02
diakopter mayyybe
Xliff Ouch... Metasyntax <> is starting to give me a headache. 22:04
<.gather { take foo($􏿽xA2,1,2,3) }> 22:06
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TimToady well, it can't be as bad as (?...) in p5 22:06
Xliff Wait... "Dollars and cents" ... someone is having me on, right? 22:07
How the hell do you type 􏿽xA2 anyways?
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moritz Xliff: we actually have documention on that somewhere on doc.perl6.org :-) 22:07
Xliff LOL
TimToady compose c/ usually 22:08
Xliff I'm on a PC.
moritz that's fine, you can install Linux on a PC :-)
Xliff *sob*
I have Linux as a VM and also as a dual-boot on this system.
But I'm currently running Windows....
*double sob*
TimToady so are some of our devs, so it's not a big deal 22:09
moritz doc.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry for the record
teatime Xliff: WinCompose is pretty decent. 22:10
Xliff: also maybe AltGr+c or AltGr+$ or something
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Xliff my $π = 3; 22:11
Oh lordy.....
TimToady m: say π
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
lizmat m: my \π = 3; say π # biblical accuracy
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«3␤»
moritz Xliff: basically all modern programming languages allow non-ASCII characters in identifiers. Welcome to the 21st century :-) 22:12
arnsholt Just like Java =D 22:13
Xliff moritz: Dude, I am a purist. If I can't type a character using only the Shift key, it's dead to me.
TimToady cue the No True Scotsman fallacy...
moritz Xliff: even purists can learn :-)
arnsholt (Even Python, I think...)
Xliff moritz: I will grant you MathML. But THAT'S IT!!! >_<
TEttinger m: my \ = 3; say  22:14
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ojHXBk57H7␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/ojHXBk57H7:1␤------> 3my7⏏5 \ = 3; say ␤»
TEttinger AW
TimToady we're insane, but we're not mad
or is it the other way 'round?
AlexDaniel Xliff: hmm, so dead keys are dead for you too? 22:15
TEttinger anyway, java allows \ufeff in identifiers, though not at the start. clojure allows \ufeff as a fn name, as a variable, whatever. that char is zero-width and normally undisplayable, I'm glad Perl6 seems to treat it differently
Xliff AlexDaniel: No. Symbols that need the ALT key are, though.
I will have to check this WinCompose thingy.
teatime Xliff: AltGr is a little more sane than windows-style Alt+code 22:16
AlexDaniel Xliff: you have dead keys somewhere on the first layers? Huh?
psch m: say uniprop "\xfeff"
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«Cf␤»
psch TEttinger: <ident> has to start with Ll afair
teatime but Compose gives you easy access to lots more symbols
TEttinger u:  22:17
teatime I use both, but if I had to pick one, it'd def. be Compose.
TEttinger .u 
yoleaux U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE [Cf] (<control>)
Xliff teatime: I will look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.
psch teatime: how's your XCompose tool coming?
TEttinger psch: lower case is different from upper case? what about title case?
psch TEttinger: i'm talking about the unicode property 22:18
teatime psch: I got suprisingly far, including defining ↤ as an infix operator
Xliff Well this IRC client does not look to support AltGR
Not even the alternate Ctrl+Alt
TimToady is it displaying Unicode properly? 22:19
teatime Xliff: it's something you'd configure in windows. but just skip that an go for WinCompose.
geekosaur only shift is more "No True American"
TEttinger m: my \THON = 3; say THON
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«3␤»
psch teatime: there's doc.perl6.org/language/modules#Dis...ng_Modules if you think it might be useful for others... :)
Xliff github.com/samhocevar/wincompose
Dat right?
TEttinger Ll doesn't seem necessary, L seems fine
Xliff Oh yay! No Auto-Hot-Key necessary? 22:20
TimToady yes, L is fine
Xliff Although I think I have that installed on this system. Heh.
teatime Xliff: yes, and correct, it includes the lib from the AHK project so you don't need AHK separately.
psch TEttinger: right, that's my lack of unicode knowledge :)
TEttinger ah ok
teatime Xliff: I use both for different things and they work together.
TEttinger Lu and Ll are nice to be able to use, it's a pity so few places support L&
TimToady well, I'm rather fond of Lo myself 22:21
TEttinger L& is, and I haven't confirmed this, anything that can have its case changed, or has a case
teatime TEttinger: that's not part of the standard though, right? 22:22
Xliff 􏿽xA9
22:22 synopsebot6 left
Xliff YES! 22:22
22:22 synopsebot6 joined
Xliff 􏿽xA2 22:22
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TimToady Xliff++ 22:22
Xliff does a happy dance.
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teatime adds 1 to the number of compose key users personally converted. 22:22
TEttinger tbh I see a question mark here
teatime TEttinger: fix your stuff :)
TEttinger I wonder if it's a different encoding
Xliff The only hangup now is to figure out the sequences.
teatime Xliff: the beauty is that you can usually guess the correct sequence. 22:23
lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2016/03/21/...happening/
teatime Xliff: for example, how do you think you'd make ♥ ?
TEttinger yeah, the heart shows correctly for me, pi did earlier
Xliff π
TEttinger I wonder what went wrong with that one... that pi works
TimToady how 'bout 𪚥, which should show 4 dragons, a 64-stroke character? 22:24
TEttinger shows, though not reasonably
teatime TEttinger: I would say maybe they're not in your font, but ¢ and © are both very common.
psch the reminds me that i wanted to install all-repository-fonts
which is an actual package on the aur...
Xliff Ꙭ
LOL
That one isn't in Windows, yet.
gfldex TimToady: looks like a small QR code
Xliff ❣ 22:25
TEttinger teatime: both of yours displayed fine
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TimToady m: say ∞ 22:25
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
Xliff ❥
22:25 snarkyboojum left
teatime TEttinger: well he had to've sent them in UTF-8 'cause I got them fine. 22:25
22:25 FROGGS left
Xliff I need one right side up and pointing right 22:25
♥
Hoh! Intuitive that one.
TEttinger here's my "stuff" as a screenshot i.imgur.com/8r5PuJY.png 22:26
teatime Xliff: most of them are like that
Xliff teatime: Thank GOD!
Sometimes I think intuitiveness in computer software has gone the way of the dodo.
22:26 YP-QMUL-W left
Xliff 004D AIL 22:26
teatime TEttinger: weird. although, maybe he's not doing UTF-8, and the server is translating? but then, how would he send these random dingbats. I'm very confused, TEttinger.
Xliff ✉ 22:27
TEttinger as am I
TimToady ⌨
TEttinger I mean I see anything since those first two just fine, regardless of sender
teatime Xliff: also compose key is very very old, so Windows' alt+code is just yet another example of MS re-inventing *nix poorly :)
Xliff OT: Anybody happen to catch this, yet? -- www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15...=billwurtz
If that hasn't gone viral, it should􏿽x85 22:28
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Xliff teatime: Speaking to the choir, here. 22:28
I'm still on Win7 because I am *NOT* a Metro fan.
TimToady or singing to the preacher
Win10 seems betterish 22:29
Xliff That's a LOW bar to set.
Hrm. I wonder if there is an X-Chat plugin to properly process extended color control charaters.
TimToady oh wow, a raft of cinnamon updates when I say that... :) 22:30
teatime Xliff: extended color control characters?
like, the normal color control chars IRC uses?
or are there more??
Xliff teatime: This client isn't properly interpreting some of the control characters the bots use to color stuff. 22:31
teatime weird.
Xliff The normal ones.
tony-o are you using cygwin ?
TimToady m: foo bar
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/8XVwgnzwNi␤Undeclared routines:␤ bar used at line 1. Did you mean 'VAR', 'bag'?␤ foo used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady m: 42 43
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/D4HIvrGYZt␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/D4HIvrGYZt:1␤------> 03427⏏5 43␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ s…»
Xliff tony-o: Cygwin is installed, but this is the win-native client.
TimToady that should show 42 in green and 43 in red
with ⏏ in amber 22:32
diakopter it .. does
oh
*blink*
Xliff TimToady: That, it did, but there are codes it can't interpret between the 42 and the 43 on my display.
And elsewhere in there. 22:33
diakopter probably missing in your font
TimToady that's just a yellow EJECT
.u ⏏
yoleaux U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL [So] (⏏)
diakopter which font is it using?
Xliff Hmmm.... What's a proper Windows unicode font?
diakopter Consolas works ok
Xliff A proper momospaced unicode font.
diakopter yes, Consolas 22:34
Xliff Nope. Those symbols still show up in Consolas. So it must be something in this version of X-Chat.
TimToady (もも would be Asian spaced...)
lizmat
.oO( how fast do momos pace ?)
TimToady I think they roll better than they pace... 22:35
heh, 桃 is "tree significant" 22:36
(peach, for those who want subtitles)
((though not pronouned "momo" in Chinese, only in Japanese)) 22:37
Xliff LOL 22:38
Cygwin IRC client is now called "hexchat"
22:39 firstdayonthejob left
TimToady last I knew, cygwin was still abysmal at unicode... 22:39
Xliff I might bring up my VM to see if I can get a better client, but I am still having trouble with VirtualBox and Xorg for some reason. 22:40
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Xliff plays SevenDust - Waffle 22:42
diakopter latest VirtualBox? recent updates fixed numerous things 22:43
Xliff Yeah. I've heard that before.
5.0.10 vs 5.0.16 22:44
Doesn't look likely things have been fixed. 22:46
Window still doesn't resize properly when the VM is started. 22:47
Having to resize the VM window manually EVERY TIME sucks,. 22:48
diakopter did it install the virtualbox drivers 22:50
Xliff Yup
I'm reinstalling the Guest Additions, now.
Still doing this small window shit. 22:51
And trying to go into Full-Screen mode still crashes the bloody thing. 22:52
The system acts like it wants to be some weird small resolution.
22:54 jack_rabbit joined
Xliff And.... it crashed again. 22:56
Dammit, I may have to rebuild the entire Linux guest host.
22:59 Xliff-2 joined
Xliff-2 m: 42 43 22:59
camelia rakudo-moar 54ce66: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/2BVkniWl8s␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/2BVkniWl8s:1␤------> 03427⏏5 43␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ s…»
Xliff Still same missing chars on the Cygwin hexchat client.
Hrm.
22:59 Xliff-2 left
Xliff \002Bold?\017 23:01
Hrm.
Holy crap... really? 23:03
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teatime What should I install? rakudo-star-2016.01 ? 23:38
or perlbrew?
sorry, radukobrew.
rakudo. bah. 23:39
gfldex if you like bugfixes, you should build rakudo ourself. Not that you will have to install panda as well
teatime I plan to, but question still stands. 23:40
gfldex i fetch both rakudo and panda from github by hand and that has worked well for me for the last 3 years or so 23:41
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