»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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dudz thanks perlawhirl , thought i'd ask 00:09
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seatek if you do a ["a".."z"].pick -- does it allocate the whole range before picking? is pick 1, "a".."z" any different? 01:46
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timotimo when you write ["a".."z"], it'll iterate the range to put it into a list, as you requested 01:50
if you do ("a".."z").pick, it should be better
seatek :) that's pretty much what i was thinking too
i can't seem to find any difference between pick and roll 01:55
timotimo yeah, it's only for when you give it a number 01:56
m: say ("a".."h").pick(10)
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(c b d f h e a g)␤»
timotimo m: say ("a".."h").roll(10)
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(a d c f b d e f b h)␤»
timotimo m: say ("a".."h").roll(100)
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(h c d e h e d h a h a f a b e f c d d g d g g b h e g c c e a g c h g h h b b b c c b c a a h e h f f c h g b g a h c a c e a a e c a g f e e b a h g f e a a c g c e d e g g f e a b a f g e a c f d g)␤»
timotimo m: say ("a".."h").pick(100)
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(f c h d b g e a)␤»
timotimo pick is "pick one, don't put it back"
roll is "roll it like a dice"
seatek oh my gosh how subtle and cool :) 01:57
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seatek timotimo++ thank you 01:58
japhb timotimo: 'dice' is plural. :-) 02:01
timotimo oh fuck off and dice, english ;) 02:02
japhb 'die' is the singular.
Pretty much.
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shin- m: say 10; 03:53
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«10␤»
labster bisect: old=2016.10 my $errors = 3; my @stuff = flat ("abc" xx 255) Z ("12" xx 128+$errors); for @stuff -> $line { unless $line ~~ m/1/ { say "seen: $line" if $line.index("2") }; if $line ~~ m/9/ { } } 03:57
bisectable6 labster, On both starting points (old=2016.10 new=f928a20) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
labster, Output on both points:
labster bisect: my $errors = 3; my @stuff = flat ("abc" xx 255) Z ("12" xx 128+$errors); for @stuff -> $line { unless $line ~~ m/1/ { say "seen: $line" if $line.index("2") }; if $line ~~ m/9/ { } } 03:58
bisectable6 labster, Bisecting by output (old=2015.12 new=f928a20) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
labster, bisect log: gist.github.com/2be3fc5ee5f1d7ca2d...886341ceaf
labster, (2016-08-19) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25...b0673f26e2
labster heh, moar bump.
ZzZombo_ Inline::Perl5 returns wrongly false for ^can calls on P5 objects. 04:07
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ZzZombo fucking stupid nickserv 04:08
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timotimo that feel when rakudo.org is dead 05:02
skrshn hello I am interested in solving the computation of Euler number using Rat lazily - gist.github.com/anonymous/7bc8161c...1c54f43088
stuck
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timotimo m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*]1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[^10].say 05:05
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3(0...*).map({ 1 / [*]7⏏051..$^a }).produce(* + *)[^10].say␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ s…»
timotimo m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[^10].say
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(1 2 2.5 2.666667 2.708333 2.716667 2.718056 2.718254 2.718279 2.718282)␤»
timotimo skrshn: does that look good to you?
skrshn let me check :-)
timotimo m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[^10]>>.nude.say 05:06
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«((1 1) (2 1) (5 2) (8 3) (65 24) (163 60) (1957 720) (685 252) (109601 40320) (98641 36288))␤»
skrshn cool I need to look up produce
At what point does a Rat get converted to Num? 05:07
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gfldex on any sub or method listed as returning Numeric in docs.perl6.org/type/Cool 05:10
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timotimo i think when the denominator overflows 64bit 05:10
skrshn timotimo: thanks a lot
timotimo m: (0...*).map({ FatRat.new(1,1) / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[100]>>.nude.say 05:11
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«((4299778907798767752801199122242037634663518280784714275131782813346597523870956720660008227544949996496057758175050906671347686438130409774741771022426508339 158180026176176529968981760773333390662230454685392578760327057449521355920728670523629599959587…»
timotimo m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[100]>>.nude.say
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«No such method 'nude' for invocant of type 'Num'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *).first(Num, :k).say
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«21␤»
timotimo wow, already at the 21st entry?
m: (0...*).map({ 1 / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[20].nude.say 05:12
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(6613313319248080001 2432902008176640000)␤»
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skrshn :-) 05:13
dalek c: 156555f | gfldex++ | doc/Type/Rat.pod6:
link to FatRat
 05:14
synopsebot6 Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Rat
gfldex m: (0...*).map({ 1.FatRat / [*] 1..$^a }).produce(* + *)[100]>>.nude.say
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«((4299778907798767752801199122242037634663518280784714275131782813346597523870956720660008227544949996496057758175050906671347686438130409774741771022426508339 158180026176176529968981760773333390662230454685392578760327057449521355920728670523629599959587…»
skrshn wow!! 05:18
It is super fast too 05:20
timotimo perl6 is super slow, though
well, not always. sometimes it can be very fast 05:21
skrshn I am scratching the surface one-and-off and am loving it. speed not been an issue for me. maybe for some real problems
side question: is there a vim mode for the REPL ? 05:22
timotimo depends entirely on what Linenoise and Radline provide
Readline*
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skrshn My environment is (set -o vi) in zsh 05:24
timotimo tbh i have no clue how to configure readline or linenoise
skrshn But I don't have vim mode in the REPL
timotimo but you can use rlwrap
gfldex the REPL comes with it's own problems. You may be better of with teaching vim to run a script with the press of a button.
timotimo aye, the REPL can cause some really mysterious failures and misbehaviours 05:25
gfldex nmap <F1> :w<CR>:!perl6 -I ./lib %<CR>
imap <F1> <esc>:w<CR>:!perl6 -I ./lib %<CR>
skrshn good suggestion. tx
timotimo yeah, you never use the F1 key anyway!
geekosaur readline reads a config file (there's a default and apps can override it) and you can specify vi default in there 05:26
gfldex nmap <F5> :!git commit %<CR> 05:28
nmap <F6> :!git push<CR>
nmap <F7> :!git diff %<CR>
PR welcome btw :)
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ZzZombo So how can I check if a Perl 5 object has a method? 05:43
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gfldex m: class A {}; class B {}; multi sub infix:<.>(A:D, B:D){ say 'calling B on A' }; A.new.B.new 05:46
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«No such method 'B' for invocant of type 'A'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: class A {}; class B {}; multi sub infix:<♥>(A:D, B:D){ say 'calling B on A' }; A.new♥B.new 05:47
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«calling B on A␤»
ZzZombo Perl 5 05:48
<ZzZombo_> Inline::Perl5 returns wrongly false for ^can calls on P5 objects.
gfldex i got that part, still down know the answer
ZzZombo ^can or can, result is the same.
gfldex you may want to file a bug report 05:49
timotimo how would you figure it out in perl5?
ZzZombo if($obj->can("method")) 05:50
gfldex if there is no sane way I would eval
so for the time being you can EVAL
ZzZombo or if I was to call it afterwards
if(my $m=$obj->can("method")){ $m($obj,@_) }
Actually, I don't know how an eval would help me. I can't usefully pass the object into the EVAL string, because it will get stringified, and if I escape the sigil, it will be just an unknown identifier for P5 code. 05:58
Won't it?
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seatek EVAL!! 06:51
seatek twitches
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gfldex ZzZombo: if the object is stringified you need to do a dynamic lookup to turn the name back into an object. If that is possible in Perl 5 I don't know. 07:36
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nine ZzZombo: the Perl5Parent and Perl5Extension roles already have a proper implementation for can. Will just have to copy that to Perl5Package. Until that's done, you can always use the low level interface Inline::Perl5.default_perl5.call_method($obj, 'can'); 07:45
Actually s/Perl5Package/Perl5Object/ or just put it in both... 07:52
ZzZombo hm, why is Inline::Perl5.default_perl5 available from outside the class? It's declared via 'my'. 07:58
nine There's an accessor method 07:59
ZzZombo ah, must've missed it.
nine It's mostly there so EVAL 'foo', :lang<Perl5> and use Foo:from<Perl5> find their Inline::Perl5 object, but can be used for other purposes, too. 08:00
ZzZombo nine, so how exactly do I use call_method? Inline::Perl5.default_perl5.call_method($obj, 'can', args)? 08:02
that is, $result=Inline::Perl5.default_perl5.call_method($obj, 'can', args) 08:03
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timotimo now gcc is just fucking with me 08:08
gist.github.com/timo/fbd1ccb77a5b0...17b23f931d - you see how it tells me the thing that's in BODY is an MVMArrayBody, but also that i have explicitly put an & before the part where i take the object's body? 08:09
what is gcc smoking ;_;
wait ... is the address of something that's a union just not defined? or something?
maybe when i lie down now i can get some sleep? bashing heads against walls tends to do that to people 08:11
ZzZombo yeah, don't bash people's heads, not even if not against walls. 08:12
zilti According to the error you did not put an & before BODY? 08:14
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moritz www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/5d...h=e0c612aa a reddit thread with more than 5 comments, and none is negative! 08:38
DrForr *?* 08:39
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moritz crazy stuff, right? 08:48
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ZzZombo is IO::Spec.catfile() similar to File::Spec->catfile()? 09:05
m: say ''.IO.WHAT 09:07
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«Must specify something as a path: did you mean '.' for the current directory?␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: say '.'.IO.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(Path)␤»
ZzZombo not IO::Path? 09:08
m: say './asd'.IO.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«(Path)␤»
ZzZombo m: say './asd'.IO.abspath 09:09
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«/home/camelia/asd␤»
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cygx o/ 09:16
DrForr \o
cygx timotimo: & has lower precedence than ->, so you need to add parens either when you cann the macro or change BODY->in_situ to (BODY)->in_situ in its definition 09:17
*call
(...and the keys aren't even close to each other...)
dalek c: fe43e2e | ZzZombo++ | doc/Type/IO/Path.pod6:
Update Path.pod6
 09:19
synopsebot6 Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO/Path
arnsholt I'd vote for the latter solution 09:20
That's good practice when writing macros in C anyways. Always, always, always put parens around macro arguments in the expansion
ZzZombo why would I want to write 'if $file.IO ~~ :e' instead of 'if 'path/to/file'.IO.e'? 09:23
gfldex m: say '.'.IO.^name 09:24
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«IO::Path␤»
gfldex ZzZombo: .^name will give you the FQN
cygx ZzZombo: the smartmatch might not be particularly useful when using explicit ~~, but it allows you to use :e in given..when, etc 09:30
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gfldex m: say so '.'.IO ~~ :e|:d 09:32
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«True␤»
gfldex ZzZombo: ^^^^
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ZzZombo IC 09:32
but again, probably in the docs, it's better to stick to the procedural, natural form, and use such intricate syntax only where it's relly needed or useful. 09:34
m: class A { method m { .n}; method n { say 'n' } };A.new.m; 09:36
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«No such method 'n' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in method m at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: class A { method m {n}; method n { say 'n' } };A.new.m; 09:37
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤ n used at line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: class A { method m {self.n}; method n { say 'n' } };A.new.m;
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«n␤»
dalek c: 671e00e | gfldex++ | doc/Type/IO/Path.pod6:
improve examples
synopsebot6 Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO/Path
c: c306960 | ZzZombo++ | doc/Type/IO/Path.pod6:
Improve this further ;)
 09:40
synopsebot6 Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO/Path
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gfldex ZzZombo: i do not agree. If it points to a directory it needs to be a symlink to a dir. 09:52
I can point at you but I will never be you
ZzZombo what 09:53
do not mix the path and the physical entry on the disk up. 09:54
the argument you give to IO related functions is path.
path points to files and directories.
it can't be any of them.
gfldex if that is true, why are there no hardlinks to directories (for sane OSes)? 09:55
ZzZombo what are you talking about? I honestly have no idea. 09:57
gfldex from the standpoint of the OS the location on disk/device-id of a dir is it's identity. From the standpoint of the user a path that does not include fancy stuff linke symlinks, reparse-points or bind mounts, provides the identity of a directory. Quite in contrast of a file that may be hardlinked. 10:00
DrForr UNIX ln creates hardlinks by default, it's just that we're so used to typing 'ln -s' that finger memory has helped obliterate knowledge of them... 10:01
gfldex i wrote "sane OSes" 10:02
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ZzZombo Man, again, you feed the function a path, a string that points to a file/folder. Whatever that file or folder points to is entirely different story. 10:03
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arnsholt Saying that the path object for a directory points to a directory rather than being a directory is needless semantic hairsplitting, IMO 10:14
Especially given the existence of symlinks 10:15
I'm confused why the example tests agains ":e & :d", though4
Since :d implies :e anyways
gfldex arnsholt: to show that you can use ~~ with a junction of the colon pair form 10:17
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arnsholt Sure. But in that case, why not something useful like ":f & :r"? 10:18
gfldex good point 10:19
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ZzZombo m: die X::IO::DoesNotExist.new(:path("foo/bar")) 10:32
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤Failed to find 'foo/bar' while trying to do '.'␤ in block <unit>…»
ZzZombo m: die X::IO::DoesNotExist.new(:path("foo/bar"),:trying(''))
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«Failed to find 'foo/bar' while trying to do '.'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: die X::IO::DoesNotExist.new(:path("foo/bar"),:trying('trying'))
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«Failed to find 'foo/bar' while trying to do '.trying'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo eh 10:33
I don't need that 'trying' thing.
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gfldex ZzZombo: you could subclass X::IO::DoesNotExist 10:38
ZzZombo nah, I'm not that badly against it.
too much effort for that. 10:39
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ZzZombo m: class A { method m {$.n}; method n { say 'n' } };A.new.m; 11:58
camelia rakudo-moar f928a2: OUTPUT«n␤»
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ZzZombo so it says I shouldn't use warn() directly, but rather use note(), do I read it correctly? 14:24
timotimo warn goes through the exception mechanism 14:30
so you can "quietly" it if you want
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field ($value where defined){ $!value=$value;return self } };say A.new.field('nyan').field; 14:31
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unsupported use of bare "defined"; in Perl 6 please use .defined if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument, or use &defined to refer to the function as a noun␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3multi me…»
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field ($value where .defined){ $!value=$value;return self } };say A.new.field('nyan').field;
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute $!value not declared in class A␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3defined){ $!value=$value;return self } }7⏏5;say A.new.field('nyan').field;␤ expecting any of:␤ horizontal whitespace␤ …»
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field ($value where .defined){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.new.field('nyan').field;
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller field(A.new(field => "nyan"): ); none of these signatures match:␤ (A $: $value where { ... }, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field ($value){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.new.field('nyan').field; 14:32
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller field(A: ); none of these signatures match:␤ (A $: $value, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
jnthn You'd need to write a multi to get it also 14:33
multi method field() { $!field } 14:34
Or so
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field (Str:D $value){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.HOW.methods;
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in any methods at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 494␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field (Str:D $value){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.HOW.methods(1); 14:35
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(field)␤»
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field (Str:D $value){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.HOW.methods(111);
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(field)␤»
ZzZombo hm 14:36
jnthn Better written A.^methods
(which does A.HOW.methods(A))
ZzZombo m: class A { has $.field='value'; multi method field (Str:D $value){ $!field=$value;return self } };say A.^methods; 14:37
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(field)␤»
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ZzZombo why is there only one method? Does my declaration make the implicit one go away? 14:37
jnthn Yes
ZzZombo wel 14:38
l
jnthn An accessor is only installed for you if there's no method of that name already
ZzZombo I hoped for them to coexist
there is no reason for manually writing those trivial getters for all of them.
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jnthn There's no reason for writing trivial setters either, just stick "is rw" on things. 14:39
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ZzZombo but 1) I don't like a.x=y; 2) I need some logic attached to changing values. 14:40
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jnthn Well, on 1) can't do much for you; if you're going to fight the language you're going to write more code. Same in any language. 14:40
ZzZombo I'm not fighting at all. 14:41
jnthn On 2 - what logic do you need? If it's validation, just stick there where on the attribute.
ZzZombo If assigments could do that, I would stick to them pretty much.
lucasb_ m: say <a b c>[0..*] 14:42
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c)␤»
lucasb_ m: say <a b c>[0..*+1]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c Nil Nil)␤»
ZzZombo what logic? When filename changes, load that file.
lucasb_ in a range subscript end, it seems like Whatever means both numbers 14:43
for a list of 3 values, * means both 2 and 3 ??? :)
m: say <a b c>[0..*-1]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c)␤»
lucasb_ m: say <a b c>[0..*-2]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b)␤»
lucasb_ ^^^ noticed that 0..* and 0..*-1 return the same thing? 14:44
awwaiid ZzZombo: filename changes meaning a field for the filename is modified? If that's the case, a more explicit ".load_file($filename)" method might be more usable ath the invocation point
lucasb_ can someone clarify this to me?
masak lucasb_: do you agree that '*' is the big exception here?
jnthn ZzZombo: I'd probably consider writing a method with a meaningful name for what's going on and having the filename attribute as an internal detail.
timotimo the thing is that 0..* is the same as 0..Inf
whereas when you have 0..*+1 you end up building a WhateverCode that takes the argument passed to it from postcircumfix:<[ ]> 14:45
awwaiid m: say<a b c>[0..(*)]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Use of non-subscript brackets after "say" where postfix is expected; please use whitespace before any arguments␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say7⏏5<a b c>[0..(*)]␤ expecting any of:␤ argument …»
awwaiid m: say<a b c>[0..*+0]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Use of non-subscript brackets after "say" where postfix is expected; please use whitespace before any arguments␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say7⏏5<a b c>[0..*+0]␤ expecting any of:␤ argument …»
timotimo so in one case it finds the end of the list and says "we're done here" (infinite list), in the other you're requesting an actual range
awwaiid m: say <a b c>[0..*+0]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c Nil)␤»
timotimo awwaiid: you need to put ( after say
or a space
yeah
awwaiid m: say <a b c>[0..(*)]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c)␤»
awwaiid yeah, wasn't reading the error
ZzZombo when I was working with XML, I'd created objects corresponding to the structure of the file elements. When you change a field of such object, it modifies corresponding element in the DOM. 14:46
awwaiid m: say <a b c>[0..(*+0)]
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«(a b c Nil)␤»
lucasb_ oh! I didn't pay attention to this detail :)
yes, the 0..(*+0) clarified it perfectly
thanks masak, timotimo, awwaiid
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awwaiid m: &infix:<..>.candidates>>.say # I am dissapointed that this doesn't have an explicit ..Whatever invocation 14:50
camelia rakudo-moar 6e7782: OUTPUT«sub infix:<..> ($min, $max) { #`(Sub+{<anon|47920480>}+{Precedence}|57979744) ... }␤»
ZzZombo Well, it's a shame the OOP-side of P6 isn't as mature as, say, in Delphi; it puzzles me why it didn't look natural to attach proper accessors to properties to the designers of P6. I expected something like that. 14:51
timotimo um, huh?
how do you mean that? 14:52
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ZzZombo how I mean? 14:53
14:53 AlexDaniel joined
ZzZombo excuse me? 14:53
lucasb_ how come?
timotimo why do you think our accessors aren't "proper"?
awwaiid they might be deeper than you think 14:54
AlexDaniel listens carefully
ZzZombo because I don't see how such an easy task (reload a file on changing filename) makes you to write your setter and also getter that in another situation would be provided by the compiler itself. It's natural to attach such logic to the write accessor in Delphi, w/o some dedicated 'load_file' method. 14:56
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moritz then make changing the file name a method, instead of an RW accessor 14:56
timotimo yeah, just change the filename using private access and make it readonly otherwise 14:57
moritz a r/w accessor provides an illusion of transparency that additional logic on writes violates
which is why the language doesn't optimize for that case
use the language's strengths, not its weaknesses 14:58
this will make both you and camelia happier
ZzZombo <timotimo> yeah, just change the filename using private access and make it readonly otherwise 14:59
I don't understand, even tho sounds like a solution, can you explain? If I change it to private, I still won't get an implicit getter, so I will still have to write one myself, won't I?
timotimo you don't have to change it to private 15:00
every public attribute has its $!foobar to go along with its $.foobar
moritz ZzZombo: have a method change-filename($new-name) { logic here; $!filename = $new-name } 15:01
awwaiid How can I get the candidates for a method? I want something like &Range::new.candidates (since looking at the &infix:<..> it redispatches to .new) 15:03
viki ZzZombo: just use a Proxy and stick your logic into STORE
awwaiid ZzZombo: can you show the Delphi equivalent? I'm interested to see what that looks like 15:05
ZzZombo yes, give me a minute
viki "Cannot use := to initialize an attribute" well.. fme
awwaiid coo
timotimo yeah, you have to return the proxy from an accessor method 15:06
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viki timotimo: so there's no way to have a proxy attribute withotu writing accessor manually?> 15:06
moritz m: say Range.^find_method('new').^candidates.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«No such method 'candidates' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki I wonder if a trait can do it...
m: say Range.^find_method('new').candidates.perl
moritz m: say Range.^find_method('new').candidates.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(method new (Mu $: *%) { #`(Method|64277432) ... }, method new (Mu $: $, *@, *%_) { #`(Method|64277584) ... }, method new (Range $: Range $min, \max, :$excludes-min, :$excludes-max, *%_) { #`(Method|74604384) ... }, method new (Range $: \min, Range $max, :…» 15:07
rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(method new (Mu $: *%) { #`(Method|37645192) ... }, method new (Mu $: $, *@, *%_) { #`(Method|37645344) ... }, method new (Range $: Range $min, \max, :$excludes-min, :$excludes-max, *%_) { #`(Method|47972128) ... }, method new (Range $: \min, Range $max, :…»
timotimo a trait will surely be able to do it
moritz awwaiid: ^^
timotimo if not, there's always slangs
lucasb_ did anyone took a look at RT #130160 ?
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=130160
lucasb_ I was trying to golf it
viki ZzZombo: right, so figure out how to stick a Proxy into an attribute without a lot of manual work and voila \o/
awwaiid moritz: thanks! 15:08
lucasb_ m: sub f(@a) { say @a; f(@a[1..*, ()].flat) if @a }; f(<a b c d>) 15:09
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(a b c d)␤(b c d)␤(c d)␤(d)␤()␤»
lucasb_ m: sub f(@a) { @a.Bool; @a.elems; say @a; f(@a[1..*, ()].flat) if @a }; f(<a b c d>)
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(a b c d)␤(b)␤()␤»
lucasb_ ^^ that's what I have arrived at
ZzZombo awwaiid, gist.github.com/ZzZombo/263b43ac18...1295ce232. 15:10
viki m: my $filename := { my $s; Proxy.new(FETCH => method {$s}, STORE => method ($v) { say "loading stuff from file $v"; $s = $v })}(); $filename = 42; say $filename 15:11
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«loading stuff from file 42␤42␤»
AlexDaniel well, uh… Proxy… that's probably not the answer he is looking for
viki AlexDaniel: why not? 15:12
AlexDaniel /o\
viki Since the winge is that they don't wanna write the basic setter multi
AlexDaniel ok, well… maybe you are right
awwaiid ZzZombo: ah cool. so the "write SetFilename" says when you write to the attribute you invoke the method 15:13
ZzZombo yes
AlexDaniel but I can't imagine anyone using Proxy for real in this case
that would be just too complicated for such a simple thing
viki AlexDaniel: you wouldn't be using it directly. You'd have a trait taking a piece of code that does the setter stuff
awwaiid I feel like Moose does this
ZzZombo so later ffile.Filename:='my.stuff' will run ffile.SetFilename('my.stuff')
viki and the trait would stuff the proxy into the attribute, and it'd be doing fancy stuff on setting and still provide the getter, just like that delphi code 15:14
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viki Sounds like a perfect module for ZzZombo to write and release into the Ecosystem ;) 15:15
ZzZombo I would, actually.
viki Sweet \o/
ZzZombo But I'm still learning
don't expect much, eh 15:16
AlexDaniel m: class MyFile { has Str $.filename; method set-filename($f) { #`{ do something here; } $!filename = $f } }; my $x = MyFile.new; $x.set-filename(‘hello’); say $x.filename
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«hello␤»
AlexDaniel so again, what's wrong with this?
viki ZzZombo: you can probably steal a lot of code from these two modules: modules.perl6.org/#q=Attr+Lazy
awwaiid yeah, I think as timotimo said, a new trait (which doesn't have to be in the core) should be able to do this. I think it would look like class Foo { has $.filename :writer<set-file>; method set-file($filename) { ... } }
or something like that
viki That's not what I was thinking at all... 15:17
Or maybe it is
ZzZombo I don't like decoupling between the property and the accessors in the code.
timotimo well, that syntax isn't going to work :)
awwaiid I just don't know the syntax quite right
but throw an 'is' or something in there...
ZzZombo anyway, I'm gonna sleep, so cya all. 15:18
viki bye
timotimo seeya!
awwaiid what would the syntax be for a parameterized trait? 15:19
viki is blahblah(param)
m: my $x is default(42); say $x 15:20
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«42␤»
viki m: my $x is default{42;}; say $x()
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«42␤»
awwaiid so maybe class Foo { has $.filename is writer<set-file>; method set-file($filename) { ... } }
viki I was thinking of just direct code block... has $.filename is writer{ load $filename } or whatever 15:21
awwaiid naw, that'll get out of hand 15:22
oh, just to invoke the method
should be able to do both :)
timotimo if you have a code block, you probably use "will" instead of "is"
AlexDaniel this is kinda relevant: stackoverflow.com/a/31684147/2698019 15:23
(using Proxy just like Zoffix suggested)
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lucasb_ m: -> @a { say @a }.( <a b c>[0..2, ()].flat ) 15:33
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(a b c)␤»
lucasb_ m: -> @a { @a.Bool; @a.elems; say @a }.( <a b c>[0..2, ()].flat ) 15:34
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(a)␤»
lucasb_ ^^ a cleaner golf
so, just calling @a.Bool; @a.elems before printing @a changes the result
MasterDuke lucasb_: does it need @a.Bool and @a.elems? 15:35
lucasb_ MasterDuke: I only arrived at this result using both .Bool and .elems in that order 15:36
but it can be changed to other equivalents like 'if @a {...}' or @a.Num
m: -> @a { @a.Bool; @a.elems; say @a }.( <a b c>[1..2, 1..2].flat ) 15:37
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(b b c)␤»
lucasb_ m: -> @a { my @b = @a; @a.Bool; @a.elems; say @a }.( <a b c>[1..2, 1..2].flat )
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(b c b c)␤»
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FROGGS o/ 16:00
viki \o\
DrForr o/ \o/ /X\ _X_ Heeey Macarena 16:01
16:01 girafe joined
viki Hm... this buggy keyboard driver is a fairy solid evidence of when I' 16:02
m using work computer to slack off...
DrForr: what's this macarena stuff?
timotimo it's a dance that goes with a song
viki A dance to apease Macaroni God? >:)
DrForr Sigh, one moment. 16:03
youtu.be/x87B1pjR3H0?t=19 16:04
viki Oh god... I'm bleeding from my ear canals... 16:05
DrForr Eventually I'll figure out how to do it in all precomposed glyphs.
Oh, my musical tastes are *much* more depraved, I can assure you.
viki cues www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ls1jWX-TM as a cure
DrForr It's also at least a whole step up from where I remember it. (Doing ear training at home in spare time...) 16:07
MasterDuke viki: changing topics completely, weren't you musing about !== a little while ago? you were expecting it to be auto-generated from '!' and '=='? i thought that was interesting, because i would assume it's !(a === b), same at != is !(a == b) 16:08
timotimo viki: huh, that's not The Cure!
DrForr locks the taskbar.
16:10 lucasb_ left
viki ;lkuibn' vWER KU BVRYTESA.Lv. buSAK,RTDEAVS D,.FBTHJMV BLS.ADUT,EN'; BSDRTF/I.LN ASRDF./IKL 16:11
That's me headdesking due to users...
TWO people tell me description is missing from product on the website and they think that 'causes the problem of viewing the product via a thingie we have. I reply no, that won't fix it and the problem is with the thingie, BUT I added description anyway and here's the LINK TO THE PRODUCT.... Both of them tell me it isn't showing up, and I tell them to clear cache, they say it's still not there, so I tell them 16:13
send me screenshots, and turns out... **drum roll** they were using that thingie to access the website instead of my link, because they thought adding the description fixed the thingie even though I told them it won't 16:14
16:14 zacts left
viki *rage* 16:14
DrForr www.youtube.com/watch?v=3avaYymFHrE
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timotimo DrForr: you think that's depraved? :) 16:15
16:15 zacts joined
timotimo is not sure what to pull out of his arsenal to counter 16:16
viki MasterDuke: oh, I kinda didn't thik we had != for some reason.
s: &infix:<!=>
SourceBaby viki, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/1b84...ic.pm#L270
viki s: &infix:<!==>
SourceBaby viki, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/1b84...ops.pm#L13
DrForr Oh, no, I start at www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4TZfEOWwW4 and go into weird areas from there.
viki s: &infix:<!===>
SourceBaby viki, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/1b84...ops.pm#L13
viki nqp: nqp::say(2 != 2) 16:17
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«0␤»
viki nqp: nqp::say(2 !== 2)
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Missing required term after infix at line 2, near " 2)"␤ at gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:625 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:panic)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:791 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:EXP…»
viki shrugs
MasterDuke: well, the !== is == with ! as a metaop, while != is a proper op.
s: &infix:<!!==>
SourceBaby viki, Something's wrong: ␤ERR: ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e␤Undeclared routine:␤ infix:<!!==> used at line 6. Did you mean 'infix:<∖>', 'infix:<lt>', 'infix:<eq>', 'infix:<o>', 'infix:<~|>'?␤␤
timotimo i must admit that video is well made 16:18
viki But that said... if SourceBaby can recognize it, wtf cmp-ok can't :/
m: say &CALLERS::("infix:<!==>") 16:19
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«No such symbol '&infix:<!==>'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki m: say &CALLERS::("infix:<Z>")
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«sub infix:<Z> (| is raw) { #`(Sub+{<anon|44843824>}+{Precedence}|57430480) ... }␤»
viki m: say &CALLERS::("infix:<ZZZ>")
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«No such symbol '&infix:<ZZZ>'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki Oh, OK, it doesn't generate it *there*
s: &infix:<ZZZ> 16:20
SourceBaby viki, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/1b84...ops.pm#L78
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timotimo DrForr: the "lock the taskbar" song is growing on me slowly 16:25
DrForr: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA0QVGVEJw - have you come across the axolotl song yet? :) 16:26
DrForr yes.
I blame QI :)
[Coke] waves from the highway, wishing everyone a happy US thanksgiving.
timotimo oh, was it featured on television? 16:27
[Coke] ... and in return, just hit dead stop traffic. *angry hand wave*
timotimo don't irc and drive :) 16:28
DrForr If he's in LA it's a moot point.
16:28 wamba left
moritz you can totally do that from the co-driver's seat :-) 16:29
timotimo right
moritz at least outside the US, we sometimes have more than one person in a car, strange as it sounds :D
viki But then... you aren't *driving* 16:30
moritz viki: [Coke] didn't say he was
PerlJam hopes Coke didn't *actually* hit traffic 16:31
Happy Turkey Day everybody! 16:32
viki But it already happened, in October!
PerlJam m: my @n = ^10; @n <<*=>> 2; dd @n; 16:33
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«Array @n = [0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18]␤»
PerlJam m: my @n = ^10; @n <<=>> 5; dd @n;
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing << or >>␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my @n = ^10; @n <<=>7⏏5> 5; dd @n;␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤»
PerlJam It's weird that the first one works but the other does not
moritz ah 16:34
it tries to aprse it as << => >>
viki m: my @n = ^10; @n <<[=]>> 5; dd @n;
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«Array @n = [5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5]␤»
moritz parse
because => is a longer token than = 16:35
viki m: my @n = ^10; @n «=» 5; dd @n;
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«Array @n = [5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5]␤»
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PerlJam and that's why I've taken to using « and » as often as I can. 16:38
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PerlJam (though I only noticed the <<=>> weirdness because I'm on a keyboard where I don't readily know how to generate « and » except in vi and I wasn't in vi when I was typing stuff) 16:38
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japhb scans the backlog idly, sees people trying to compete over most depraved youtube video, and decides to just back away slowly 16:44
viki Mine wasn't depraved. 16:45
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viki is starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel of RT#130160 17:51
Ah, yes... 17:53
*snif* *snif*
That distinct scent of a bug... Yummy 17:54
AlexDaniel SourceBaby: source 17:57
SourceBaby AlexDaniel, See: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-sourceable
18:01 wamba left
viki w00t, totaly found it \o/ 18:05
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viki lucasb_: I found the cause of the bug you were wondering about today, the flat one 18:16
lucasb_ viki: are fixing it already? :) 18:17
*are you
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viki lucasb_: yeah, I already got Fix#1, which deletes 18 lines and adds zero :) 18:17
I wanna see the performance hit of that and if it's bad, then I got Fix#2
timotimo so we had a performance optimization that was doing things wrong? 18:18
lucasb_ viki: delete everything :) Perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away
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viki timotimo: I looked at git blame briefly and it doesn't look like this was added for performance reasons, I think it may be a leftover from before we made the default impl. in a role 18:20
it really just saves a single method call
heh. BEFORE: 32.4776000, AFTER: 32.4663461 18:21
viki does a couple more runs
timotimo wow that's bad 18:23
viki What do you mean bad? It got faster!
timotimo oh, you are right 18:24
i got it in reverse
viki m: say "{3.1404537725 / 3.140447684}x faster" 18:25
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«1.0000019387x faster␤»
timotimo fantastic 18:26
viki no diff basically
umm
MasterDuke: "Makefile:101: recipe for target 'spectest_update' failed"
DrForr And it's still almost pi seconds.
viki and Makefile:523: recipe for target 'm-stresstest5' failed 18:27
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viki tries blowing everything up and cloning from scratch 18:28
heh, rm -fr rakudo took like 12 seconds to run... All those precomp files :) 18:29
bah
That had my unpushed test for one of Zeframs tickets! 18:30
timotimo ah!
oh :(
they are lost now?
viki Yup :) 18:31
18:33 nnunley joined 18:34 labster joined
viki MasterDuke: nevermind, nuking and recloning the repo fixed that issue 18:34
AlexDaniel m: sleep 9999999999999999999; say ‘awww, that was some good sleep!’ 18:40
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«awww, that was some good sleep!␤»
AlexDaniel commit: all sleep 9999999999999999999; say ‘awww, that was some good sleep!’
viki heh
:|
committable6 AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/c3683e0a915db9918d...26277528c8
AlexDaniel I keep forgetting that old versions did not support ‘’ 18:41
viki Oh, for a second I thought using an `all` junction made it work all of sudden :D
AlexDaniel :)
anyway, I'll submit a bug report, I guess
though people are probably still annoyed by my 9999 bug reports
viki yeah
AlexDaniel yeah? yeah… 18:42
viki I dunno, I recall when I was annoyed with Zefram's bug reports of these weird edge cases, but now I'm actually looking forward to them :)
AlexDaniel :)
viki yeah as in "yeah, submit it" :)
18:42 hankache joined
AlexDaniel STILL NO CREATE NEW TICKET BUTTON!!! AAAAAAAAAAAA 18:43
aww, too bad there was a ticket between #130168 #130170 :) 18:47
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=130168
Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=130170
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AlexDaniel m: say now + Inf 18:56
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding to nu; expected Int but got Num (Inf)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
AlexDaniel yea, nu
viki I think there's a ticket for that already 18:58
Or at least for the cause of that error
18:58 wamba joined
viki Something about Inf being a Rational but not fitting into Rat? or Num? something or other, so it slips past type restriction but can't be used as that type 18:59
AlexDaniel hmmm? 19:00
viki Well, don't see that ticket now, but I know I was the creator and lizmat commented on it that the offending behaviour was added on purpose to make Inf.Num.Something roundtrip 19:02
geekosaur I suspect it fits into a Rat (1/0) and something assumes that anything that can be a Rat can be converted to an Int, but you can't represent infinity as an Int 19:03
viki m: my Rat $ = Inf.Rat
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment; expected Rat but got Rational[Num,Int] (?)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
geekosaur o.O
viki Ah, here: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history 19:04
AlexDaniel no such ticket with Inf in the title
ah… dammit
geekosaur ok, I guess thats one way to roundtrip it. pretty unfortunate way, but then representing something as a division by 0 is also pretty unfortunate
viki 'casuse I used ∞ :D
geekosaur edge cases are so much "fun"
AlexDaniel YAY! Edge case party! 19:05
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arnsholt Representing infinity as x/0 would be pretty unfortunate, seeing how it's not quite correct and all 19:07
m: say Inf.Rat.nude # I wonder 19:08
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(Inf 0)␤»
viki m: say NaN.Rat.nude
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«(NaN 0)␤»
AlexDaniel ∞/0 ? Really? :-/ 19:09
arnsholt Yeah. That's in some way even more unfortunate 19:10
19:10 zakharyas left
geekosaur looks to me like it just shoves the original in the numerator (which is why it ends up being Rational[Num,Int]) and use the denominator as a flag for it 19:10
AlexDaniel /o\
geekosaur er, uses denom==0
AlexDaniel cancel the party, I am out
viki m: Inf.Rat.base(10).say
camelia rakudo-moar 1b840f: OUTPUT«P6opaque: get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the representation '20' of type Num␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
AlexDaniel /o\
viki m: Inf.Rat.perl.say 19:11
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«P6opaque: get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the representation '20' of type Num␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki (.perl uses .base)
arnsholt geekosaur: Yeah, that sounds plausible
eisen74 Is there a simple way to instatiate an array of a determined size using a declaritive statement or is a for loop?
viki eisen74: is it always gonna be that size? 19:12
eisen74 In this case yes, size of array is known in advance.
viki eisen74: my @a[42]; if yes, my @a = 0 xx 42; if no
well
eisen74: then the first one will do, that's a shaped array 19:13
m: my @a; @a[^42]; dd @a
eisen74 It's actual an array or arrays (matrix)
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Array @a = []␤»
viki m: my @a; @a[^42] = (); dd @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Array @a = [Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any]␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a[25] = ($_ for ^25); say @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«[0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24]␤»
viki And that would be the way for unshaed arrays
eisen74: @a[42;72]; (first and second dimension sizes)
m: my @a[3;4]; dd @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Array.new(:shape(3, 4), [Any, Any, Any, Any], [Any, Any, Any, Any], [Any, Any, Any, Any])␤»
viki m: my @a[3;4]; a[2;^4] = 42 xx 4; dd @a 19:14
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤ a used at line 1␤␤»
viki m: my @a[3;4]; @a[2;^4] = 42 xx 4; dd @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki m: my @a[3;4]; @a[2;|^4] = 42 xx 4; dd @a 19:15
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller AT-POS(Any: Int, Int, Int); none of these signatures match:␤ (Any:U \SELF: int \pos, *%_)␤ (Any:U \SELF: Int:D \pos, *%_)␤ (Any:U $: Num:D \pos, *%_)␤ (Any:U $: Any:D \pos, *%_)␤ (Any:D $: int \pos, *%_)␤ …»
viki eisen74: it's worth noting those are a fairly new feature so you may come across rough edges :}
m: my @a[3;4]; @a[2;0..3] = 42 xx 4; dd @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Partially dimensioned views of arrays not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
eisen74 Oh wow! That's a neat feature.
19:16 andrzejku joined
viki Well, I don't get what it means by partially dimensioned... I guess slices aren't yet implemented on shaped arrays 19:16
m: my @a[3;4]; @a[2;0] = 42; dd @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Array.new(:shape(3, 4), [Any, Any, Any, Any], [Any, Any, Any, Any], [42, Any, Any, Any])␤»
viki huzzaa
andrzejku hello gentelmens 19:17
viki Only gentelmens? :) No gals or robots? 19:18
We have a sizable population of both :)
andrzejku sure 19:19
viki andrzejku: how's your quest on starting Perlmongers group going?
AlexDaniel changes “shit error message” to “bad error message” in the title of the next bug report
moritz hello gentlebots :-)
andrzejku viki, I will meet with my friends on december
viki \o/
Awesome 19:20
andrzejku however I am not sure if they like perl :D
AlexDaniel make them
andrzejku but we will enjoy together
=)
AlexDaniel, that's not easy
to be true I found Ruby as better than perl last time 19:21
AlexDaniel 5 or 6?
viki heh
andrzejku Perl5
Perl 6 should be a powerful future I suppose
but I still need share my time with current job which I do mostly in C++ 19:22
not easy x) 19:24
19:25 RabidGravy joined
eisen74 thanks viki, camelia. 19:26
19:28 xinming joined
eisen74 So the multi-dimentional array initialization shorthand is not work looks like. Next best way to init one with a default value? 19:28
19:29 domidumont joined
AlexDaniel eisen74: what do you mean? 19:29
m: my @a[2;3] = (25,30,35), (2,3,4); say @a
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«[[25 30 35] [2 3 4]]␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a[2;3] = 1 xx 3 xx 2; say @a 19:30
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«[[1 1 1] [1 1 1]]␤»
eisen74 yes, camelia, AlexDaniel, that's what I was looking for.
viki eisen74: it works fine, it's assignment to a slice that wasn't working above.
eisen74 !!Thx
ok got it.
19:31 labster left, nwc10 joined
nwc10 I'd just like to say 19:31
m: Inf.Rat.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«P6opaque: get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the representation '20' of type Num␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
nwc10 that is an awesome bug :-)
viki it's just trying to put a Num into a native int inside .base 19:32
lizmat I'm open to suggestions to fix this mess :-) 19:33
also: please fix the fact that the min/max value of Int isn't an Int :-)
viki m: Int.max.say
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
lizmat m: dd Int.Range
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«(-Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf, -Inf... (lazy list)␤»
viki hah
lizmat m: say Int.Range
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«-Inf^..^Inf␤»
lizmat m: say Int.Range.min.WHAT 19:34
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
AlexDaniel and also let's have Int accept infinity, hehehe…
one of those great ancient ideas
viki doesn't have any ideas for fixing this mess
AlexDaniel lizmat: well, the point of #130171 is to just fix the error message somehow 19:35
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=130171
geekosaur can't think of any that won't make other things worse (every DWIM has a WAT and this area's chock full of both)
viki yeah
nwc10 this is also a bug?
m: say Inf.Rat*0
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding to nu; expected Int but got Num (NaN)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki nwc10: that's the same cause 19:36
nwc10 OK. I'll add that to the ticket unless someone else has already
19:37 Tonik left
viki nwc10: there're a couple of related tickets: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history and rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history 19:37
19:38 labster joined
viki And this is the commit that explains what problem we solved by the current situation: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/49...2017d779f3 19:38
So any new solutions should solve that problem too.
nwc10 OK 19:39
lizmat sometimes I wonder if we should have an IntNum allomorph
viki Intersting. 19:40
geekosaur possibly, but I can see that causing other problems too. (like that Int.Range issue is likely to develop weird edge cases)
viki m: class IntNum is Num is Int {}; my IntNum $x .= new: Inf; say $x; say $x ~~ Int 19:42
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Inf␤True␤»
viki hehe
m: class IntNum is Num is Int {}; my IntNum $x .= new: Inf; say $x; say $x ~~ Int; say now + $x
camelia rakudo-moar 61a18c: OUTPUT«Inf␤True␤Attempt to divide by zero using div␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
19:44 domidumont left 19:47 domidumont joined
AlexDaniel and then also IntNumStr 19:48
19:50 jonas1 left 19:57 nwc10 left
andrzejku do you think that one day one guy will write something like RoR for Perl6 20:00
and he will make a boom
timotimo *shrug*
perl6 certainly has bad performance like ruby did back then 20:01
:P
andrzejku ruby had bad performance too
timotimo that's what i'm saying
vendethiel- "back then" :P
20:01 vendethiel- is now known as vendethiel
timotimo it must be important for the success of the thing 20:02
andrzejku however I think moat vm should be rewritten to c++ without nqp to achieve better performance when the API will be consistence
vendethiel Oo
.oO( goatvm needs no yakshaving; at least )
 20:03
andrzejku right now C got worse performance than C++
vendethiel that's a pretty meaningless statement :)
tbrowder ref rakudo star: after fooling with it for two days, i give up. going to try straight rakudo with a separate module install script.
timotimo it sounds like you're confused
viki andrzejku: doubt there will be any booms from RoR-like product. If there's one thing the world needs less now is a yet another web dev framework that is the same as all the rest. 20:05
timotimo viki: it's not about a web framework 20:06
viki andrzejku: besides, wasn't RoR dying or dead because they designed themselves into a corner?
timotimo it's just "any killer app"
andrzejku mhmm
viki Perl 6 is the killer app :) 20:07
20:07 hankache left
andrzejku viki, ruby is not dying, I met with some strange statistics on Tiobe about Ruby but as open source GitHub projects they are a lot and more more 20:07
20:08 Ven joined
viki andrzejku: that's 'cause TIOBE is crap :) 20:08
andrzejku right now Javascript and NodeJS is winning among developers
viki andrzejku: and I've said RoR, not Ruby
vendethiel viki: RoR is doing just fine
andrzejku viki, I am not web specialist
vendethiel it's been a corner for 10years now 20:09
viki andrzejku: but they *aren't*. They're just oft-used because Javascript is the only thing you can reliably run on clientside in browsers.
andrzejku but I think Javascript must be fucked
viki vendethiel: well, I'm just quoting what chief architect of another web framework said and I heard another guy point out that no one uses RoR so *shrug*
andrzejku: what does that mean?
andrzejku by adding to web engine perl/ruby interpreters 20:10
vendethiel viki: very surprising that a guy would talk smack about a competitor heh :)
viki andrzejku: haha. which web engine? :D
vendethiel: the smack talking guy wasn't the competitor.
20:10 Ven is now known as ven
andrzejku WebKit or something 20:10
viki andrzejku: and what about others?
andrzejku I don't care
RabidGravy I'm confused now 20:11
andrzejku if some companies told users to use Explorer
moritz from looking at job postings, my impression is that quite many commercial applications are still on Java, many other on RoR, PHP and a few newer ones on pure JS stacks
viki andrzejku: no real website will use Perloscript for their website if it doesn't work in half the browsers
timotimo JS is already bad enough in browsers :)
viki andrzejku: on one of our main websites, I still worry that a user with IE8 will show up, because I know $boss will make me fix the issue... And that browser has been deprectated by its developer and receives no security updates! 20:12
The "I don't care" philosophy with Web only if you're running a personal website about nerdy stuff
andrzejku viki, that's not true 20:13
viki s/only/works only/;
moritz or you have a very hip audience
but much serious business doesn't
andrzejku viki, if you say we got best website with best performance you can say the users use firefox and fuck rest
and they will do that, guess why?
viki andrzejku: if your website is broken in my browser, I have no means to become your customer.
andrzejku: what's "firefox"? 20:14
moritz andrzejku: many users out there don't even know what a browser is
andrzejku because they don't care what a shitty browser they will use
viki Man, the "average user" doesn't know wtf a browser is..
20:14 bstamour joined
andrzejku they just want to got your app working everywhere 20:14
viki andrzejku: what app? They don't know who I am, because when the chance for them to find out came, my website was broken in their browser
andrzejku so you come on your website and there will be message use these browsers to be in power 20:15
and they do it
moritz andrzejku: you seem to argue from a very privileged perspective that many of us can't afford
ven
.oO( As always, the best move is not to code )
moritz most businesses don't have "the best", and everybody is desparate to use their thing
viki andrzejku: 99% of users in my office won't be able to install any of those browsers. They would get permission denied from their user accouint settings 20:16
moritz on average, most of them are average
RabidGravy I thought the days of "best enjoyed with ,,,, browser" were passed
viki andrzejku: and at least half of them will think your site is trying to get them to install a virus
andrzejku ;-) I also work in office and most of ppl do what someone told them to do 20:17
they will not think it is a virus 20:18
viki And I can install a brower, but I'd just go to a different website. I like *my* browser. I don't care that you're too inept to make your site work in it.
Because there's a competitor that makes me do less work, so I'll go to them.
andrzejku: so your office has unrestricted accounts? 20:19
andrzejku viki, sure
viki Sounds like a nightmare for I.T. department
andrzejku viki, but I use linux
viki, linux is illegal there and it is out of restriction however most of tricky problems I need resolve alone or with linux office budies 20:20
viki, moreover you can be true about competitors and favourite browsers, but I believe that the world belongs to the bravest
andrzejku let the perl make great again 20:21
20:22 ven left, Ven joined
viki That's just an empty saying with no reality to it. 20:22
andrzejku moritz, let the germany make great again :P 20:23
viki I meant the brave thing.
andrzejku :)
viki There's nothing brave about forking a browser engine and implementing language XYZ in it. In fact, I'm sure there are hundreds of those. Dead and unloved. 20:24
In fact, now I recall there was one that can run Perl 5 client side. 20:25
andrzejku viki, gimme the source
viki I saw it mentioned on r/perl, but that was ages ago
dudz but from a marketing view buzzwords like brave and best are profit :)
RabidGravy activeperl will run in IE ActiveX scripting host
dudz *hello
viki And it kinda proves my point: I know that browser exists, but I can't even find it! :) 20:26
RabidGravy or whatever they call it now
viki dudz: Courage!
lucasb_ viki++ thanks for fixing the .flat bug
viki lucasb_++ thanks for golfing it
andrzejku: this may be it, but the site isn't loading for me: www.brainbell.com/tutors/Perl/Clien...e_Perl.htm 20:27
lucasb_ viki: did benchamark only the range flat snippet? won't the deleted pull-all method make a difference in other use cases?
*did you
*push-all :) 20:29
viki lucasb_: doubt it. The only thing re-implementing push-all would save is a method call, 'cause it'd be the same impl. as pull-on, except you'd be pushing to $target instead of returning the result and looking for iterend instead of the first found value
lucasb_: well, a method call *per item*
lucasb_ viki: ok 20:30
viki m: my @a; @a[$_] = ^3 .List for ^10_000; @a[$_][0] = ^3 .List for ^10000; dd @a 20:32
camelia rakudo-moar b6de5e: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable Int␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm line 1␤ in block at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
viki :/
20:33 stux|RC-only left
lucasb_
.oO( "The Immutable Integer" sounds like a cool band name )
 20:33
andrzejku I think the future is Perl for Android and iOS but I have no idea how is working
20:33 rurban joined
bstamour What about "The Immutable Rat" instead? ;) 20:34
20:34 domidumont left
timotimo on devices that only have like 256 megabytes of ram, it's a bad idea to run a rakudo-moar that already takes about 60 megs to just start up and compile the main program :P 20:35
andrzejku timotimo, how the ruby mine works? 20:36
ruby motion, pardon
there are already great apps made with it
timotimo ruby motion? 20:37
20:37 stux|RC-only joined
andrzejku timotimo, www.rubymotion.com/ 20:37
viki star: for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager }; say now - INIT now 20:38
camelia star-m 2016.10: OUTPUT«2.6514073␤»
viki star: for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager }; say now - INIT now
camelia star-m 2016.10: OUTPUT«2.56446215␤»
viki m: for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager }; say now - INIT now
camelia rakudo-moar b6de5e: OUTPUT«3.18496066␤»
viki m: for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager }; say now - INIT now
camelia rakudo-moar b6de5e: OUTPUT«3.23080829␤»
viki /o\
20:38 TEttinger joined
viki lucasb_: good spot. seems like it could use a custom push-all after all 20:38
20:39 stux|RC-only left
timotimo andrzejku: well, we're wasting a lot of ram, we can quite probably do much better somewhat soon 20:39
viki is off for the day in 11 minutes, so will add it tomorrow or the weekend
20:40 stux|RC-only joined
andrzejku timotimo, do you mean perl6 is wasting? 20:40
timotimo yes
andrzejku well
viki lucasb_: or not... I'm getting the same diff for the original bench I used, so it's likely star being slower :o 20:41
andrzejku timotimo, I think it is design problem
viki benchable6: help
benchable6 viki, Like this: benchable6: f583f22,HEAD my $a = "a" x 2**16;for ^1000 {my $b = $a.chop($_)}
andrzejku timotimo, it will be much more better to throw out nqp 20:42
and do what lisp languages do
lucasb_ viki: star being... faster, you mean?
timotimo throw out nqp and write everything in pure perl6?
andrzejku write a base in C/C++ and do as much as we can in perl6
AlexDaniel viki: you can try it, but right now benchable is a bit… broken :)
viki benchable6: 1b840f1,HEAD for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager };
benchable6 viki, starting to benchmark the 2 given commits
viki, benchmarked the given commits, now zooming in on performance differences 20:43
andrzejku then just improve performance by rewrite most critical things to native again
benchable6 viki, ¦«1b840f1»:2.3638␤¦«61a18c0»:2.8944␤¦«HEAD»:2.8443
AlexDaniel benchable6: 1b840f1,HEAD for ^50 { <a b c>[^3 for ^1000].flat.eager };
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 2 given commits
andrzejku timotimo, I tried to understand nqp but it is not described well
AlexDaniel let's give it another try just in case… :)
viki m: say 2.3638/2.8443 20:44
camelia rakudo-moar b6de5e: OUTPUT«0.831066␤»
viki benchable6: 1b840f1,HEAD for ^1000 { ^10_000 .flat.eager };
benchable6 AlexDaniel, benchmarked the given commits, now zooming in on performance differences
AlexDaniel, ¦«1b840f1»:2.3712␤¦«61a18c0»:2.8496␤¦«HEAD»:2.8442
viki, starting to benchmark the 2 given commits
viki, benchmarked the given commits, now zooming in on performance differences 20:45
viki, ¦«1b840f1»:2.7403␤¦«HEAD»:2.8107
viki benchable6: 1b840f1,HEAD sink(for ^1000 { ^10_000 .flat.eager });
benchable6 viki, starting to benchmark the 2 given commits
viki, benchmarked the given commits, now zooming in on performance differences
viki, ¦«1b840f1»:«run failed, exit code = 1, exit signal = 0»␤¦«HEAD»:«run failed, exit code = 1, exit signal = 0»
timotimo andrzejku: code written in nqp is already many times faster than the equivalent code written in perl6 20:46
why would it be faster to rewrite that code in perl6?
lucasb_ in sink((for ...)) another pair of parentheses?
andrzejku timotimo, yeah because perl6 is compiled to nqp
lucasb_ sink is a statement or subroutine? I didn't find its definition in the source...
viki m: sink 20:47
camelia rakudo-moar b6de5e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Whitespace required after keyword 'sink'␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sink7⏏5<EOL>␤Missing block or statement␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sink7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ term␤␤»
viki :)
timotimo what do you mean by "perl6" in that sentence?
andrzejku perl6 -> nqp -> native calls
timotimo that seems wrong
andrzejku perl6 -> native calls
timotimo, look at lisp 20:48
lucasb_ perl 6 -> ... -> the machine -> the electrons -> the mind -> the universe
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andrzejku as Stallman quote says "List is a language created by god" 20:49
viki AlexDaniel: ... oops
andrzejku it got very tiny vm
AlexDaniel viki: not your fault
viki *phew* :D
AlexDaniel Unhandled exception in code scheduled on thread 13
Unhandled exception in code scheduled on thread 12
Cannot send a message on a closed channel
I think this is the same issue as this: github.com/perl6/whateverable/issu...-262159968 20:50
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viki Oh, so them it *is* my fault? I ran a command in #zofbot 20:52
viki relocates
AlexDaniel viki: but you did nothing wrong, it crashed because there is some issue in rakudo 20:53
moritz has anybody translated the "Higher Order Perl" examples to Perl 6 yet? 20:58
tadzik ooh, that's a very cool idea
iirc the regular ones are, hm, prety Oldschool Perl :) 20:59
moritz it's from 2005 :-)
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moritz hop.perl.plover.com/ has links to JS and Ruby translations 21:01
masak tadzik: that's not my memory of it, though it's been a while since I read it. 21:02
tadzik: I remember the code in that book being highly readable, and admirably clean.
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masak it's one of the books that really made me appreciate Perl as an adequate Lisp :P 21:03
tadzik hm, I was reading it on a kindle, which is not perfect for code examples, maybe that skews my memory a bit
moritz s/one of// for me
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timotimo andrzejku: as long as you're not showing actual implementation, your suggestions sound like "we should add blast processing to perl6" to me 21:09
andrzejku timotimo, I am not an expert
if I got a perl guy support 21:10
I will
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AlexDaniel soooo… I'm thinking… 21:17
the idea of changing the setter a little bit is not that unusual 21:18
and the Proxy solution is just too painful
having a module to do such a basic thing is weird 21:19
the guy is right 21:20
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wamba m: my $a=(1,3,2) but role :: { method sort { self.pick(*).list but $?ROLE } }; say ($a, {.sort} ... *)[^10] 21:33
camelia rakudo-moar 172898: OUTPUT«((1 3 2) (1 3 2) (2 3 1) (2 1 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3) (3 2 1) (3 1 2) (2 3 1) (1 3 2))␤»
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viki AlexDaniel, so.... add all the thing to core? :) 21:59
AlexDaniel viki: we have added TWEAK to the core, this is the same thing 22:00
and we also have .indent
viki I don't think the guy is right (don't even know if it's a guy)
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AlexDaniel that's a good point 22:01
viki His premise is the attribute must have the same name as accessor for some reason, I'm not really buying that as a reason to add another core feature 22:02
AlexDaniel because that's what we provide by default??
viki TWEAK solves a real problem, because without it, you have to move defaults of all attributes
The solution to his problem is a prive attribute with a public accessor, there won't be any code savings on top of that 22:03
So we'd be adding maintenance burden for some purely psychological ideal that all attributes must be named the same as their accessors 22:04
Makes no sense to me
AlexDaniel we can keep bragging how creating a class is just a few lines and everything is autogenerated for you, but if there's no way to have your own setter then it's like one step forward and two steps back
viki But there *is*!
And if you don't like it, you can make a module 22:05
AlexDaniel yeah, using a Proxy. How easy and readable that is!
viki That's what modules are for
No, using a trait
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AlexDaniel huh? 22:05
viki And this is the first time I see anyone complain about it in a year and all of a sudden you're bent on making it a core feature 22:06
AlexDaniel well that's how TWEAK got implemented
timotimo no
viki Can we not use "TIMTaoDy" and "but we added that useless feature already" as an excuse to adding more useless feature
timotimo people have been complaining about TWEAK being missing for years 22:07
AlexDaniel ah ok
timotimo at the very least one year
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viki AlexDanel, not at all, I went on at least two rants about TWEAK and mst made fun of us for Moose have it and us not having it several times, that's at least what I witnessed, there may have been more 22:08
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viki And .indent is used by heredocs anyway :) 22:09
RabidGravy what is TWEAK?
or is there a roast test I can examine to see what it does?
viki RabidGravy it's an awesome new feature that let's you do BUILD without having to move defaults of all attributes 22:10
RabitGravy there are docs for it :)
docs.perl6.org/language/objects#in...ntry-TWEAK 22:11
RabidGravy got it 22:12
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RabidGravy on the attribute thing, you could make the separately named r/w accessors with a trait 22:27
without a proxy 22:29
but you'd have to wrap the attribute's compose method or something 22:30
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RabidGravy because you don't know what class you're in until that point 22:31
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RabidGravy if one was to put something in the MOP for it, a compose hook on the attribute which could return some methods might be a more flexible alternative 22:35
lucs p 22:43
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kalkin-_ When you try to do zef install Task::Start it will fail because LWP:Simple is missing IO::Socket::SSL. After installing IO::Socket::SSL by hand it works 23:19
yoleaux 23 Nov 2016 13:17Z <viki> kalkin-_: FWIW, nine++ improved upon your PR (also, I recommend you join #perl6-dev): github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b5...9811d72ba8
timotimo i think the IO::Socket::SSL dependency is an optional one
kalkin-_ is not seeing any IO::Socket::SSL dependency definition in perl6-lw--simple/META.info 23:20
23:20 kalkin-_ is now known as kalkin-
kalkin- There is an issue from coke github.com/perl6/perl6-lwp-simple/issues/2 He wanted to reopen a new issue, but hasn't followed through on it(?) 23:22
viki kalkin-: right, it's an *optional* dep.
viki reads a few lines higher 23:23
Oh....
viki tries
Ah 23:24
No, I see commits to Pod::ToBigPage that address this github.com/gfldex/perl6-pod-to-bigpage/issues/5 23:25
kalkin-: what's the failure output? 23:26
kalkin- just closed the console, will restart it
viki `zef install Task::Star` succeeded, but I'm pretty sure IOSSSL was already installed on my box. 23:28
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viki kalkin-: OK. Well, there are two ways to fix this. #1, move `p6doc` dep in Task::Star to be before LWP::Simple. It'll bring in Pod::To::BigPage with it, which has IO::Socket::SSL dep on it. Or #2, reopen the issue you mentioned for LWP::Simple and make the author toss SSL tests or add it as a dep. 23:31
Right now I see there's an arbitrary env var that one can set to avoid the test: github.com/perl6/perl6-lwp-simple/...uth.t#L12, but that's not the default condition 23:32
There's use Test::When <online>; one can use, or if module dep is not desirable, at least it's var, ONLINE_TESTING can be used when it *is* turned on: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Test-When#online 23:33
</shameless-plug>
ONLINE_TESTING is not part of Lancaster convention, but other vars in that module *are*, so there's a chance of wider adoption of all of them by module installers 23:34
Ah, I see the current choice was suggested here: github.com/rakudo/star/issues/77#i...-258132929 23:36
#WhyYourSoftwareWorksThatWay :) 23:37
kalkin- gist.github.com/anonymous/f237ead6...f2b5fedd38 23:39
now I try to install panda without Task::Star, AFAIR it failed a few days ago with the same error 23:40
ohh viki meant p6doc not panda
hmm seems to work 23:41
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kalkin- I think reopening the issue would be the best thing, I don't like non obvious fixes like the first one proposed by viki 23:42
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