»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
00:07 Exodist joined 00:11 skids left
Todd_ This did the trick: 00:12
use Terminal::ANSIColor;
my $Terminal = %*ENV<TERM>; 00:13
sub PrintRed ( $Str ) {
if $Terminal ~~ /xterm/ || /linux/ { print color('bold'), color('red'), "$Str", color('reset'); } }
thank you again! bye bye 00:14
Geth doc: 2dd13df6e2 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | 2 files
Don't use private class WrapHandle

The WrapHandle class:
o Isn't actual part of the signature of these methods o Is a private class (internal to the methods on Routine), so we can't
   refer to it at this level and expect the signatures to compile.
also fix a typo.
Closes #1254		 00:15
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Geth doc: 46be212f6f | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/quoting.pod6
Add example of nested Q delimiters

Closes #1256		 00:22
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samcv sweet. nqp::chr is soon going to be 46% faster 01:11
which causes the Int.chr to be 12.3% faster 01:12
raschipi samcv++
AlexDaniel :O
\o/
samcv except in the rare case the caracter has to be normalized before creating the string. then it's the same speed as before 01:13
raschipi samcv: If you keep this up, soon we will be as fast as C.
samcv hah.
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samcv just doing the good work :) 01:22
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Voldenet Hm, I wonder how to forward all arguments to another method or submethod 01:39
I'm looking for something like `sub one { ... } sub two { one(@_) }` from perl5 01:40
m: sub one (Str $x) { say $x }; sub two { a($^a) }; two("test");
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
a used at line 1
Voldenet m: sub one (Str $x) { say $x }; sub two { one($^a) }; two("test");
camelia test
MasterDuke Voldenet: `sub one(|c) { sub two(c) }`, something like that
Voldenet m: sub one (Str $x) { say $x }; sub two { one(@_) }; two("test"); 01:41
camelia Type check failed in binding to '$x'; expected Str but got Array ($["test"])
in sub one at <tmp> line 1
in sub two at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet Uh, obviously. :)
MasterDuke huggable: capture
huggable MasterDuke, nothing found
MasterDuke huggable: Capture
huggable MasterDuke, Argument list suitable for passing to a Signature: docs.perl6.org/type/Capture
MasterDuke Voldenet: check out that link ^^^
u-ou in the repl, is there a way to say the previous answer 01:42
AlexDaniel m: sub one (|x) { two(|x) }; sub two($blah) { say $blah }; one ‘test’;
camelia test
Voldenet m: sub one (|x) { two(|x) }; sub two($blah, $foo) { say $blah, $foo }; one 'test', 'foo'; 01:43
camelia testfoo
Voldenet splendid
samcv huggable, hug me
huggable hugs samcv
u-ou is there a way to get the last evaluated thing in the repl? 01:44
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u-ou like _ in python 01:45
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MasterDuke u-ou: i don't think so, pretty sure the repl loses a lot of info about stuff that just happened 01:45
u-ou ok
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BenGoldberg u-ou, You can always just assign the result to a variable. 01:59
Does anyone know if there's something like nextsame/nextwith, but which can use an arbitrary Callable? 02:07
I'm kinda thinking of perl5's goto &subname.... 02:08
AlexDaniel BenGoldberg: return foo(…) ? :) 02:09
raschipi Obligatory: tail-call optimization, when? 02:10
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AlexDaniel raschipi: when someone submits a PR? :) 02:10
don't think it is as simple though 02:11
BenGoldberg Some things might depend on being able to play with the results of callframe(), and so *automatic* TCO is probably not a good idea. *However* letting users perform explicity TCO should be doable. 02:12
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Geth whateverable: e1420bc936 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | Unicodable.p6
Make unidump: command understand hex numbers

Just a quick change to make it work		 02:43
whateverable: 5bba2379ee | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | Unicodable.p6
Tiny style tweaks

Just making it more consistent. I wish the whole unicodable will be refactored eventually.
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AlexDaniel (… had to update rakudo to get :i fix) 02:52
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ZzZombo What modules would be my best bet at creating my own HTTTP proxy server? 02:59
SmokeMachine m: enum Bla of Int (bla => 42) # should it be valid? 03:00
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
No such method 'set_of' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::EnumHOW'
at <tmp>:1
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skids What's the nqp incantation to transform a BOOTStr to str? 03:14
timotimo nqp::hllize
or perhaps you mean decont_s?
skids I think it's an NQP 'str' but I'm not totally sure. it's from a nqp::getattr_s 03:17
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skids still 'P6opaque: representation mismatch when storing value (of type BOOTStr) to attribute (of type str)' 03:20
BenGoldberg m: for ^Inf { if callframe($_) -> $c { say $c.code ?? $c.code.name !! '?' } else { last } }; 03:21
camelia (signal SEGV)

sink-all
sink
<unit>
?
eval
evalfiles
command_eval
command_eval
command_line
?
?
?
BenGoldberg Oops? 03:22
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MasterDuke BenGoldberg: i just created a moarvm issue for that github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/issues/562 03:35
timotimo i'd prefer a more concise title ("segv from accessing code objects from callframes") and the code to run it at the beginning of the ticket's description 03:39
the segv there is just a missing null pointer check, though it's surprising to have a callframe that gives null there 03:40
though perhaps that's what you get when you give a too high number to callframe?
m: say callframe(10000).code
camelia ctxcaller needs an MVMContext
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo m: say callframe(10000).code.name
camelia ctxcaller needs an MVMContext
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo fair enough i guess
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ZzZombo sup 03:41
timotimo ZzZombo: have you heard of the http adaptation protocol (or something like that?) 03:42
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Con...n_Protocol
anything you could want to do with a custom proxy server you could do with squid and this instead
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skids Ah. The BOOTStr is null. 03:59
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ZzZombo timotimo: it was very interesting to learn, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot of usable ICAP servers for Windows. 04:03
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skids m: use nqp; my $b; "o" ~~ / . {$b := $/.CURSOR }/; my $f := nqp::getattr_s($b,Cursor,"\$\!name"); nqp::say(nqp::isnull($f)); nqp::say($f); 04:22
camelia 0
say requires a concrete string, but got null
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
skids :/
Ah. isnull_s. 04:25
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samcv ugh wikipedia how can you not sort things numerically 06:58
all the 9's at the top and it's not sorting by population 06:59
i'm guessing it might be because they used commas with the numbers so it's sorting it as text. maybe on wiki you have to put the raw numbers in and it adds the commas by itself 07:01
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samcv wiki markup is so insane. 07:05
when it gets to complicated tables and such
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samcv .tell nine getting those failing tests again. maybe because i'm using libffi under moarvm and not dyncall? 07:50
yoleaux samcv: I'll pass your message to nine.
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Woodi hi #perl6 :) 08:46
samcv hi Woodi
Woodi samcv: *nicode question, if you don't mind... 08:47
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pistacchio hi, is there a community forum anywhere? 08:47
samcv sure Woodi i am unicode. we all are unicode 08:51
Woodi so Unicode started as 32bit numbers, now 64 ? then encoding problems, let's say, resolved by utf-8... but that don't include *other* things like sorting, numbers - every such thing needs additional lookup table ?
just trying to find way to learn past bits and utf-8 :) 08:52
samcv ok. utf8 and unicode are seperate. unicode assigns characters to codeponits
utf-8 is a way of encoding these codepoint numbers in section of 8bits
the highest unicode codepoint is technically 0x10ffff but nothing is anywhere close to that high 08:53
which is 1,114,111 and there aren't that many cp (yet?) but how moarvm stores codepoints is in 32 bit signed numbers 08:54
well it can be 8 bits technically if all the codepoints in the string are under 128
but regardless. 32 bits signed. so those negative numbers are used to store things higher than the max of a 32 bit signed number, and are also used to encode 'graphemes' which are made up of multiple codepoints 08:55
Woodi but 32/64 bit number space do not include eg. sorting ? 08:56
samcv i don't get your question
but basically. there are enough negative codepoints to never run out (these synthetics)
you'd have to have so much string data that it cannot be stored in any computer to use them all up. 08:57
Woodi codepoints are just numbers. how to sort lexially, by checking $cp1 < $cp2 numerically ?
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samcv uhm cmp sorts by cp 08:58
i have implemented the Unicode Collation algorithm though if you want to sort properly
Woodi that algo uses additional data or just cp ?
samcv i added a docs page on the new metheods/operators i added docs.perl6.org/language/experimental#Collation
the unicode collation algorithm uses additional data. so sorts things properly. (alphabetically) 08:59
m: use experimental :collation; say <ä a o ö>.collate; # (a ä o ö)
camelia (a ä o ö)
samcv m: say <ä a o ö>.sort; # (a ä o ö)
camelia (a o ä ö)
Woodi and sotry with roman numbers and numbers from other cultures is similiar ? cp alone are not enought ? 09:00
*story
samcv yeah it does all languages 09:01
also for latin script, it will sort 'a' before the letter 'Za'
err 'Z'
and you can custom set how to sort it. like if you want to ignore case. or ignore diacritics 09:02
read docs.perl6.org/language/experiment...ion_Levels how the collation levels work
Woodi opened :)
ok, thank you samcv++ 09:03
samcv is that what you wanted?
Woodi yes :) making sure that cp's alone are not enough for all what Unicode do 09:04
it's kind of problem with learning Unicode
nadim_ Morning P6 \o/ 09:05
Woodi hi nadim :)
nadim_ do we have some Devel::Size equivalent?
morning Woodi, long time ...
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Woodi pistacchio: hi, sorry for late answer... we don't have specialised forum but Reddit have specialised subreddit for us :) 09:06
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nadim_ I find myself use'ing three four packages all the time, is there a way to use them all in a package and just use that one? 09:08
Woodi nadim_: I think distros could be the answer but not sure 09:10
samcv Woodi, i've been asked to do a chapter on unicode for moritz's book. and have been meaning to make a blog post about unicode for too long now lol. 09:11
Woodi private CPANs, etc :)
samcv: I hear writing is learned by writing things :) 09:13
samcv that's just a rumor... 09:14
Woodi samcv: there is many blog post and articles about unicode and moust of them are similiar... I think something new should be written... 09:15
samcv ok so write what other people haven't written about unicode. that seems easy enough. link to one of these blog pages so i can make sure to be better than that one :P 09:16
Woodi samcv: I don't know to point "this is typical, bad blog post" :) 09:17
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samcv this is an alright post www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/10/08/...o-excuses/ 09:19
Woodi samcv: problem is to explain you need to start from begining and that makes a lot of paragraphs. maybe post with very short intro ? :)
i read this twice I think. and that's basics, like subject indicate :) 09:20
samcv imo it goes too much into encoding and not into unicode
it doesn't really say what unicode is. just how it can be encoded 09:21
chansen_ This is aslo a good introduction post: reedbeta.com/blog/programmers-intro-to-unicode/
samcv which i thought was leaving a lot out of it
Woodi maybe usually diacritics part is where moust readers finish reading...
samcv that looks a lot better chansen_ 09:22
i find it really interesting lol. but that's just me
Woodi it's much never then joels++ :) 09:23
chansen_ samcv: yeah, touches more Unicode concepts
samcv unicode is a framework for programmatically determining the properties of a character. determining what a 'visual' character is. these concepts are clear to humans writing on paper. but to a computer, it does not know what words are 09:24
doesn't know how words and sections of words interact. and unicode is the framework which allows us as programmers to be able to support a vast array of scripts and languages by having clearly defined property values that can be followed 09:25
Woodi i think programmers just prefer simpler things like ascii, that them can control from start to finish...
samcv yeah of course. i mean ideally nobody would ever need to know the codepoint numbers and it wouldn't matter and it'd be abstracted enough away or something
Woodi how much is Unicode in Go and Rust ? 09:26
samcv so ascii it ties letters to 8 bits. but unicode actually describes WHAT they are. and how they interact wih the surrounding codepoints
not i don't think
i mean i think they support utf-8 09:27
but nothing like perl 6 with its concept of graphemes
Woodi so probably Perl6 have a guaranteed lead for next 20 years :>
samcv swift is #2 with unicode support
hah
perl 6 was designed to be good enough for the next 100 years. or so they say 09:28
at least in its flexibility and extensibility internally and such
Woodi samcv: I probably cynic here but I bet graphemes was sheduled to be invented by Unicode commeittee in future session :)
Perl6 just was too fast :) 09:29
samcv idk i could write a post about what unicode means for a perl 6 programmer. but. i don't like that really. because i think unicode should be transparent like it wasn't even there 09:30
and the codepoints themselves will eventually become irrelevant
and everybody would use the Unicode collation algorithm o sort things because the codepoints have no impact on the actual characters themselves and it will be a magical land, where everybody uses perl 6 09:31
Woodi samcv: maybe post how to use graphemes would be nice. eg. you used above .collate and that's not what ascii user can imagine... such things 09:32
samcv yeah. it's easy for people to grasp, these letters aren't in the right order!
when they see them. because that is the 1st thing that comes to mind, not their code values. and then expand on that. and show how unicode collation algorithm and all the properties and things give us a framework for this 09:33
actually i think unicode is enormously simple 09:34
for the task they do. it is amazing
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Woodi easy to say :) 09:35
parv m: say easy 09:36
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
easy used at line 1
Woodi first: how to type that thingies :)
parv Woodi, what did you say?
Woodi parv: when ? :) 09:37
samcv Woodi, could probably write the reason things get added to unicode. such as some things are added to aid in transcribing historical text. others to allow two way roundtripping with another encoding. and need for such a thing. as well as current usage
i find it interesting they have picture of squares. and like that is going to explain to you about the nature of unicode 09:39
though i guess it's kinda neat. but. that was my first thought. 09:40
parv Woodi, nevermind​
Woodi samcv: I think Unicode will be used when we switch to using command lines in GUI, like `console in games :) 09:41
parv has been doing copy-paste for unicode things not easily entered via US layout keyboard
samcv compose key! 09:42
parv samcv, I may set up that & remember the seq. or, not. don't 09:43
... care enough yet.
samcv parv, you can steal my xcompose github.com/samcv/dot-files/blob/ma.../.XCompose 09:45
Woodi dayly used things always have priority...
samcv you can always search for the description or search for the symbol you copied from somewhere to remember the squence
then you can do 🐧 and 💯 and uh. ≤ and “ this ” and ¿ and whatever stuff 09:46
parv samcv, thanks # downloaded & bookmarked
samcv i have M-dash and n-dash and minus sign and horizontal bar 09:47
chansen_ samcv: How about writing about Perl 6's string model? Show how it's superior to other models/languages (concatenation, substring ...). Such post would give Perl 6 good exposure outside it's community 09:51
samcv yeah that for sure :)
been good talking and getting me brainstorming 09:52
parv .oO(if one can search unicode grapheme by description in vim) 09:53
samcv can one?
parv I no nothin'. wondering myself 09:54
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RabidGravy m: gist.github.com/jonathanstowe/d9f6...7277336aa7 10:03
camelia (Hash[Str,<anon>])
(Str)
(Associative[Str,<anon>])
No appropriate parametric role variant available for 'Associative'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 12
RabidGravy any way out of that? Assuming I need to know the "of" of the Associative attribute 10:04
actually isn't that a bug? 10:07
in rakudo that is
seeing that the Associative role only has one parameter as defined but somhow it manages to create one with two parameters 10:09
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pistacchio how can i make "eq" to return "false"? I can only get Any 10:52
lizmat pistacchio: show us the code! :-) 10:53
m: dd "foo" eq "bar" 10:55
camelia Bool::False
pistacchio oh, done
it was the result of a grammar .made call. I just had to call .Bool on it :) 10:56
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lizmat m: dd ?Any # or prefix with ? 10:56
camelia Bool::False
RabidGravy so in the gist above how does the .type of the attribute become "Associative[Str,<anon>]" when there isn't a two parameter candidate for Associative? 10:58
or is the .gist() cheating somehow?
like the Mu.gist has knowledge of the guts that isn't exposed properly in the Perl6 associative role 11:00
lizmat RabidGravy: nothing springs to mind, I'm afraid :-( 11:02
RabidGravy my immediate thought for a fix is make Associative have two candidates 11:03
but I don't know what to call the key type constraint accessor 11:04
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lizmat afk again& 11:04
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RabidGravy or actually just give the existing one a second parameter with a sensible default 11:08
ah keyof 11:10
will make a patch for that later, as the sun is out we're going to the seaside
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pistacchio can you tell me why here ideone.com/AaSl2g <crontask> works file, while <crontask>+ hangs the execution? 11:14
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pistacchio can you tell me why here ideone.com/AaSl2g <crontask> works file, while <crontask>+ hangs the execution? 11:35
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moritz \o from Oslo 12:08
parv: <crontask> matches zero characters
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moritz sorry, meant pistacchio 12:08
EGONE 12:09
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sjn o/ from Oslo :D 13:00
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timotimo bench: compare HEAD "hey how are you".contains("w a") for ^100_000 ||| so "w a" ~~ / w ' ' a / for ^100_000 14:30
benchable6 timotimo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
timotimo, ¦HEAD: «Benchmark: ␤Timing 10 iterations of 0, 1...␤ 0: 0.4836 wallclock secs @ 20.6801/s (n=10)␤␉␉(warning: too few iterations for a reliable count)␤«timed out after 10 seconds»» 14:31
timotimo oh? whoops :)
bench: compare HEAD "hey how are you".contains("w a") for ^1_000 ||| so "w a" ~~ / w ' ' a / for ^1_000
benchable6 timotimo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
timotimo, gist.github.com/748f075fdcd57cff22...625aa0e372
timotimo hm, the n in there can't be controlled, right? 14:32
MasterDuke timotimo: correct 14:33
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MasterDuke you could make it controllable 14:35
timotimo it'd probably be beneficial to come up with a more involved benchmark to compare matching a string inside of another string with contains vs match (though perhaps it'd be fairer to use index instead of contains)
MasterDuke i keep forgetting how much overhead `for ^n` has compared to `loop (my int $i = 1; $i <= n; $i = $i + 1) {` 14:37
timotimo there is an optimization inside the Perl6::Optimizer that will transform that if n is literal 14:38
it constantly breaks, though
it's very sensitive to changes in other parts of the compiler ;(
MasterDuke bench: compare HEAD my $s = 0; $s = $s + 1 for ^1_000_000; say $s; ||| my $s = 0; loop (my int $i = 1; $i <= 1_000_000; $i = $i + 1) {$s = $s + 1}; say $s; 14:41
benchable6 MasterDuke, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
MasterDuke, gist.github.com/43d49c93c5ddffa99e...d8071c2acd
MasterDuke loop takes one-tenth the time
timotimo bench: compare HEAD my $s = 0; for ^1_000_000 -> int $_ { $s = $s + 1 }; say $s; ||| my $s = 0; $s = $s + 1 for ^1_000_000; say $s; 14:42
benchable6 timotimo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
timotimo, gist.github.com/53858e0d9e218e0c55...46b228890e
timotimo that's at least 2x faster 14:43
bench: compare HEAD my $s = 0; for ^100_000 -> int $_ { $s = $s + 1 }; say $s; ||| my $s = 0; $s = $s + 1 for ^100_000; say $s;
benchable6 timotimo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
timotimo, gist.github.com/a447873fa320927880...d89a7f804e
timotimo um ... huh?
apparently only after a given point
bench: compare HEAD my int $s = 0; for ^100_000 -> int $_ { $s = $s + 1 }; say $s; ||| my $s = 0; $s = $s + 1 for ^100_000; say $s; 14:44
benchable6 timotimo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
MasterDuke `-> int $_` has to create an extra frame, right?
benchable6 timotimo, gist.github.com/f72c3331f3e333521e...3a82bb0e20
timotimo that's right
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MasterDuke m: for ^1_000_000 {}; say now - INIT now 14:48
camelia 0.4982313
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timotimo DrForr: do you think it's already feasible to use Perl6::Parser to find stuff like "do any ecosystem modules call a method with this name with n positionals / this named arg"? 14:55
in the io grant, ioninja used a simple grep line to figure out if any calls to comb, lines, words, or slurp-rest pass the "close" named parameter, but it'd only ever find usages of "close" that's on the same line, and it'd false-positive on having "close" somewhere else on the line, too 14:56
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masak that's a very interesting use case to have. timotimo++ 15:26
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pmurias jnthn: do we need to keep p6invokehandler? It seems to be a parrot relict as the current backends just turn it into call. 15:36
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timotimo aye, perl6-all-modules is already fantastic 15:48
but unless you have a search tool with source code understanding, its use for automated surveying is limited
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jnthn pmurias: I suspect it's a relic also 15:51
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pmurias jnthn: is rakudo-debugger maintained? 16:06
jnthn pmurias: As time allows, yes :) 16:20
Or doesn't allow, perhaps :P 16:21
I think recent slang changes mighta caused some upset
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vendethiel > my @rm'd = $!state{'breakpoints'}.grep({ $_ ne @parts[2] }); 16:56
Grammar::Debugger's source code is nice :)
timotimo jnicethnice 16:57
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samcv anyone had experience with a dual intel/nvidia laptop running linux. i know there's some weird things since linux doesn't have the same support as windows for these weird configs 17:48
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samcv hmm maybe have to use proprietary drivers for this. sounds like a hassle. since i do no gaming 17:52
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AlexDaniel timotimo: in fact, maybe it'd be nice to have a bot for this… 17:53
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geekosaur I am under the impression recent nouveau does have limited support for it. but both the nv and nouveau drivers have (different) bugs 17:54
but I have no direct experience; all my gear has Intel Iris Pro
(that said, being the SME for a window manager means getting exposed to everyone else running into driver bugs :) 17:55
samcv i mena it's inherently weird. the nvidia card goes through the intel framebuffer 17:56
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samcv well this t540 feels much faster than my x220. has same ram frequency (x220 supports 1666mhz if you install hacked b ios) and same amount of memory. and 2.4ghz vs 2.6ghz 18:01
though i have an ssd and it is 6.0gb/s vs 3.0gb/s on the x220. though the cpu has got to be faster, or something. i don't think i really had a hard drive bottleneck before. 18:02
and doesn't look like i can max out 6gb/s with aes encrypted hd. that's benching at 2.3GB/s on the t540 18:04
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samcv but still could have less strain on the rest of the cpu. hmm 18:04
will have to run some rigorous benchmarks so i can actually figure out what it is
AlexDaniel m: say 2576980377.uniprop 18:05
camelia Error, MoarVM cannot get Unicode codepoint property for synthetic codepoint -1717986919
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
samcv actually wait. it's the same base ghz actually. more research is needed
lol AlexDaniel nice overflow 18:06
AlexDaniel seeing it in my tests…
samcv you test that high of a cp?
that's not a real one. but it should still throw differently
or show different error
or does it happen with normal ones 18:07
AlexDaniel samcv: github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...#L133-L136
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AlexDaniel m: say 0x11FFFF.uniprop 18:08
camelia
samcv what are you expecting to happen?
AlexDaniel m: say 0x99999999.uniprop
camelia Error, MoarVM cannot get Unicode codepoint property for synthetic codepoint -1717986919
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
samcv a different error? throwing in perl 6 and not moarvm?
AlexDaniel uhhh I don't know… 18:09
samcv or just say invalid codepoint?
AlexDaniel m: try { say 0x99999999.uniprop }
camelia ( no output )
AlexDaniel maybe it's fine…
except for the overflow
samcv yeah 18:10
probably an sprintf thing didn't do the right integer type etc lol
it thinks the cp is less than 0 though. which is weird. since it's not 18:16
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samcv and changing it to %li fixes it. hm 18:16
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AlexDaniel unidump: U+D800 18:18
unicodable6 AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/290250032f193908de...fd87a80fcc
AlexDaniel samcv: ↑ better than nothing I guess?
samcv this is sufficient
:)
i like your tables very much so 18:19
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AlexDaniel unidump: 0x99999999 18:19
:|
samcv XD
AlexDaniel I'll leave it as is for now… gonna revisit it later 18:20
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AlexDaniel m: say 0x99999999.uniname 18:27
camelia <unassigned>
AlexDaniel samcv: mmmmhmm
samcv: why uniname works but uniprop doesn't?
samcv because uniname isn't in the same property function in moarvm
AlexDaniel internally, yes. But as a user, why would I care? 18:28
samcv different functions are the path they go through. they don't really share
you shouldn't
AlexDaniel m: say 0x99999999.chr
camelia chr codepoint too large: 2576980377
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
samcv but you can't get a property for a non-real codepoint
AlexDaniel m: say 0xD800.chr 18:29
camelia Error encoding UTF-8 string: could not encode codepoint 55296
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
samcv the <unassigned> is not its name but is uh
AlexDaniel then I shouldn't be able to get its name also?
samcv whatever idk. will come back to it in an hour. gotta do something
AlexDaniel :)
samcv that's probably true AlexDaniel
for ones above the legal limit
cause it's not unassigned it's non grata 18:30
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pmurias n/j #perl6-dev 18:45
do we want to "fabricate" unicode properties for synthetic code poins? 18:47
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jnthn pmurias: Yes; so far we just take the properties of the base character and use those as the properties of the synthetic 18:53
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samcv .o(probably broken for extend graphemes but i have not checked yet) but that was added recently support for extend grapheme cluster break 18:53
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Voldenet How can I effectively load and unload snippets / modules in p6 script? 19:01
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Voldenet My use case is that I'd like to invoke perl6 scripts without reloading moarvm and leaking much memory 19:05
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MasterDuke Voldenet: EVALFILE 19:06
mst now scoping is lexical you can probably load stuff into scope
but I dunno if rakudo will free the loaded CU after it drops out of scope
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Voldenet Oh, hm. I guess that can be easily checked with some tests 19:07
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rjbs- twitter.com/ignasi35/status/845339657474859008 19:11
Voldenet Nice.
mst rjbs-: you have a tail
jnthn MoarVM can collect compunits, and to my knowledge we have no remaining EVAL-related leaks 19:13
mst jnthn: wondering if there are lexical loading related ones 19:18
mst plans to stuff things into a CUR with a timestamp version at some point or similar for reloading
or at least, I plan to try it and see what goes wrong
because that should be entertaining
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mst TimToady: incidentally, it seems like every time PEG grammars get mentioned online at least one person jumps in with "they're terrible use Marpa!" and a link to a not particularly clear critique of PEG - is there anything you can think of that elucidates the differences and explains why perl6 (and ingy's Pegex) preferred PEG ? 19:28
TimToady: my attempts to find comparisons just lead me in circles of Marpa zealots shouting "but PEG's terrible" and people going "uhh ... could you provide an actual analysis of this?" and then *crickets* 19:30
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RabidGravy I think the tumblweed is enough counter critique 19:32
(I have no view on the matter) 19:33
timotimo /me didn't even read
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masak mst: I read something -- a Marpa blog post -- to the effect that "while recursive descent is the easiest one to *explain* and conceptually *understand*, it's also the least optimal and least flexible from a number of parser-y points of view" 19:34
mst RabidGravy: yeah, it's enough for me to not worry about it ... but that doesn't mean the question didn't nerd snipe me anyway
raschipi u: A􏿽xCC􏿽x81 19:35
unicodable6 raschipi, U+00C1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH ACUTE [Lu] (Á)
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raschipi I wonder what normalizes the codepoints I pasted. 19:36
mst masak: that would be a pretty reasonable explanation
RabidGravy you need more beer, I for one fell asleep halfway through making a tiny change to Associative.pm
Voldenet How can I force GC in moarvm, can I do this? 19:38
masak mst: one concrete case of that that I could think of is that an operator parser could be recdescent'd, but everyone I've ever seen ends up making it something like shunting algorithm instead, often citing performance
timotimo Voldenet: yes, "use nqp", then "nqp::force_gc"
masak even Perl 6 itself does a custom parser for the ops, in fact
timotimo good thing about perl6 grammars is that you can drop in anything you can imagine at any point in the parse process 19:39
as long as you return a Cursor at the end, iirc
masak 007 uses that a little bit 19:40
somewhere in the region of "you can declare your own operators, and they install themselves in the parser" 19:41
mst masak: oh interesting 19:42
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Vishalk169 Hi 19:44
Who's there ? 19:45
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masak just us chickens... 19:45
mst too late
timotimo they came to see if perl6 is alive and it was clear to see that perl6 is actually dead 19:46
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AlexDaniel raschipi: perl 6 does :) 19:48
raschipi: I haven't done anything in the bot to prevent normalization
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AlexDaniel .u A􏿽xCC􏿽x81 19:49
yoleaux U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A [Lu] (A)
U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT [Mn] (◌́) 19:50
AlexDaniel I wonder who is more right
unicodable or yoleaux
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raschipi AlexDaniel: How hard would it be to prevent normalization in a string? 19:56
AlexDaniel raschipi: I guess you'll have to work with a Buf then
raschipi I'm thinking about file names, which need to be the same bit-by-bit to work. 19:57
geekosaur utf8-c8 is supposed to be engaged for filenames. but, yes, this needs to be thought out better 19:58
AlexDaniel where's Zoffix when you need him :)
raschipi If I have a file with the decomposed form on disk, I would need a Buf literal to be able to open it?
AlexDaniel raschipi: that's a good question, yes 20:01
but no, I don't know
raschipi Right, I created a file with the decomposed forma and now I can't delete it. Let me use a graphical file browser. 20:04
timotimo utf8-c8 will always roundtrip properly
but if you have something like the A with combining accute accent, you'll end up with one or two synthetic graphemes after the A
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raschipi OK, how can I declare a utf8-c8 literal? 20:08
timotimo you can't, source files go through NFG unless you specify a different encoding on the commandline 20:09
but you can spell out the Buf and put a .decode call directly in the source
raschipi That's a hassle, isn't it? Can't copy and paste filenames to source code. 20:10
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timotimo if your filenames are weird, then yeah :P 20:12
raschipi Is there a way to say: "This string or any canonically equivalent?" 20:13
timotimo if you have Str, then "eq"
Belial Hi all, here pretty much looking for where to start with Perl 6? I used Perl 5 for work and am interested to see what has been done for the new iteration. Any tips for a C/C++ programmer learning Perl 6?
timotimo we have a few documents that could be the right thing for you, Belial 20:14
El_Che Pick a problem, and write a solution
timotimo one is the 5-to-6 pages in the docs that highlight important differences when you come to 6 from 5
El_Che while keeping a browser open with the perl6 doc
timotimo another is the perl6 page on learnxinyminutes, which is for "people who can already program" in general
Belial Ah most excellent, won't have to slog through the very basics, for some reason I can't make myself skip it lol 20:15
El_Che (is there any known schedule for the release of O'Reilly Learning Perl 6?) 20:16
lizmat no known schedule, afaik 20:18
El_Che Is it me, or did brian d foy changed the title?
"Learning Perl 6, the Nutshell Book from O'Reilly Media"
I don't remember the nutshell part
lizmat perhaps that's just O'Reilly marketing, really 20:19
it's akin to "for dummies", but hopefully it shouldn't make you feel as stupid :-)
El_Che "Learning X" and "Nutshell" are very different kind of books
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Voldenet Hm, what's the most viable way to inspect the memory usage of moarvm? 20:21
RabidGravy does t/spec/S02-types/pair.rakudo.moar have traditional failures or have I broke something 20:22
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timotimo Voldenet: multiple ways to do it; i've been working on a little branch that does An Interesting Thing, let me dig it up 20:23
github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/536
another way is to use the moar-gdb.py gdb plugin and call "moar-heap" from a frame that has "tc" as a local variable available 20:24
Voldenet I want to see if ix.io/pfh will leak something, my understanding is that it shouldn't...
timotimo yet another way is the heap profiler which you get by telling perl6 to --profile=heap
Voldenet but I'd need to validate
timotimo oh, you can just watch the memory usage in top or something 20:25
Voldenet hm, something like this would probably work, but I might be profiling leaks in shell-* area ix.io/pfi 20:26
timotimo ah i was about to suggest using /proc/self for that
Voldenet Wow, I've used /proc/pid my whole life
:P
but i'll split that for sanity, I don't want to check if shell ops are leaky :P 20:28
timotimo right, that's why i suggested just watching in top 20:29
Voldenet hm, top has the problem of not monitoring over-time growth, and I don't want to sit 10 hours and watch it :-) 20:30
timotimo hm, okay, how about this 20:31
in addition to sleep 0.1, you also { say "hi" }
Voldenet :>
timotimo and you pipe that into something that invokes ps for every line it gets
Voldenet Well, I was just planning to make a perl script doing Proc::Async.new that'd save csv with memory usage measurements 20:33
(i'm sure it's already solved, but I definitely need this :P)
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[Coke] .ask awwaiid if they can check out github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1247 20:45
yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to awwaiid.
Voldenet uh, I wonder why Proc has pis and Proc::Async doesn't 20:48
s/pis/pid/
raschipi OK, IO::Path.new is 'multi method new(Str:D $path)' 20:49
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raschipi Shouldn't it take Stringy instead of Str so it can receive a Buf with the exact bits we need? 20:50
To open a file with a name that Str would normalize. 20:51
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Voldenet okay, I'm not sure what to do to get a pid 21:00
> perl6 -e 'my $sleep = run <sleep 3>, :out; say $sleep.pid' 21:01
this should theoretically work... right?
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pmurias jnthn: jnthn/rakudo-debugger seems to have a parrot specific Makefile, I have made a PR request to get rid of nqp::p6invokehandler but I don't know how to test it 21:06
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raschipi m: my $sleep = run <sleep 3>, :out; say $sleep.pid 21:11
camelia run is disallowed in restricted setting
in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1
in sub run at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 14
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jnthn pmurias: Oh, the Makefile should be tossed 21:13
pmurias: We moved the driver program into Rakudo since it needs maintaining with the compiler 21:14
So that repo of mine is just the frontend
pmurias: 'tis gone :) 21:15
pmurias: Test the PR - does it pass spectest? :)
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Voldenet Argh, I still can't just run the process and get its pid, i feel sad now 21:43
and running fork + execv doesn't feel like a perl6 solution at all :( 21:45
BenGoldberg Voldenet, run should work, just not with camelia. 21:48
mst I'm getting (Any) for .pid and also it doesn't seem like it actually ran it
I'm rather confused
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AlexDaniel and what are you doing exactly? 21:52
Voldenet reposting the same code, but: perl6 -e 'my $sleep = run <sleep 3>, :out; say $sleep.pid'
mst I can't work out if it even got started tbh 21:53
AlexDaniel mst: say $sleep.out.slurp-rest; :) 21:54
oh, and run needs :out then
mst but .pid is still (Any) after that
AlexDaniel ah, it's there, right
yea, I see
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Voldenet So... how do I force it to get started? 21:56
AlexDaniel interestingly… pid does not seem to be set at all 21:57
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/fb38...re/Proc.pm
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timotimo maybe some class deriving from Proc was supposed to do something about pid at some point 21:58
Voldenet well, I made some rather "solid example" 21:59
ix.io/pft
Without pid trying to do system-level stuff would get extremely hard 22:00
mst use IPC::Run:from<Perl5>;
timotimo i'm not sure what the api should look like to correctly get the pid out of our stuff
AlexDaniel Voldenet: yea, it's simply not there. Sad. Anyway, why do you need to know the pid exactly? 22:01
Voldenet mst: yeah, that does the job, but I could make that whole tool in perl5, the point was getting it done in perl6 :-)
timotimo i mean at the nqp op level
Voldenet AlexDaniel: getting /proc/(pid)/smaps
AlexDaniel :o
mst I'm curious how perl6 even tells when a process has exited if it doesn't have the pid to correlate with waitpid()
timotimo that's libuv domain 22:02
it knows what to do
geekosaur this is also why it's hard to get file descriptors, a lot of stuff is hidden at the libuv level
Voldenet it'd be harder to re-implement libuv though ;-) 22:03
timotimo yeah, we're planning to eventually throw out libuv partially
only fro synchronous I/O, of course
we just lazily implemented synchronous I/O based on just starting an uv loop and waiting for it to terminate, and that got us sync i/o
but it has big overhead and more frustratingly makes it impossible to open a socket on one thread and read from it in another >:( 22:04
mst Voldenet: what I'm finding is that perl6 can be used to write TCP daemons just fine, but for traditional unixy stuff, perl5 is still much more likely to be sane 22:05
(insert semi-regular grumble about no unix socket support here)
timotimo oh, yeah, that
Voldenet mst: but I tried some socket programming yesterday and managed to get some segfaults out of it, not with anything reproducible though
mst I haven't managed that yet 22:06
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mst I'm sure it'll happen eventually given the number of times I've segfaulted perl5 22:06
Voldenet It was basically something about writing to a 'already-closed' socket
AND signals
that's why it's not really a reproducible combo 22:07
gfldex do we got isatty somewhere?
Voldenet mst: well, perl5 sits rather tight with tons of native code wrapped into packages, it's bound to segfault at some point
mst Voldenet: oh, please, that doesn't count. 22:08
Voldenet (I remember using openssl + DBI + pthreads crashed it mercilessly)
mst I mean single threaded pure perl segfaults
breaking XS modules is for amateurs
Voldenet :-)
lizmat gfldex: IO::Handle.t
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mst I managed to make it deref a null pointer mucking with CORE:: once 22:09
that was -ing hilarious
gfldex lizmat: thanks
Voldenet That's... hilariously frustrating ;-) 22:10
timotimo oh if you want "hilariously frustrating" i have the story for you %)
have you heard of a program named "rakudobrew"?
Voldenet Not really, should I? :-) 22:11
timotimo not important
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Voldenet Or rather, heard the name, didn't use it. 22:11
timotimo anyway, it puts a folder in your home that has a bin/ where it puts a rakudo and any binaries you installed
you're supposed to add that bin/ folder to your path and you can have multiple versions in there and switch all scripts/modules/... with just one command 22:12
Voldenet and that's sane... enough
timotimo yup
some people use that as root, which is not so terrible, but not perfect
but in itself it's not problematic
here's what happened
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timotimo someone didn't want to add the path to every user's path (or something like that?) so they symlinked /usr/bin into the rakudobrew folder 22:13
now guess what the first thing is that rakudobrew does when you switch between versions
Voldenet hmm, throw "invalid .so"? 22:14
raschipi Nukes the directory, yay!
Voldenet Wow.
timotimo nukes the directory, exactly!
someone was left with a not very complete system
mst rm /usr/bin/* # oops
Voldenet Oh, now I get what's linking into /usr/bin was
timotimo and rakudobrew got something put in
to prevent that same thing from happening again 22:16
but we figured out since then that we shouldn't be recommending regular users to use rakudobrew at all
Voldenet Eh, but how does rakudobrew know which part of PATH contains rakudo? 22:18
timotimo huh? 22:19
it puts rakudo there
and you're supposed to add "there" to your PATH
Voldenet Ah.
timotimo i.e. export PATH=/home/me/.rakudobrew/bin:$PATH
Voldenet So it's more suitable to making some packages, not using in $PATH, and PATH way is for devs only 22:22
Okay, time to write some perl6 wrappers around native methods. 22:23
timotimo nah, you shouldn't create packages with rakudobrew
native methods? you mean C or C++?
Voldenet fork and execv :) 22:24
I guess passing the array to it moderately tricky.
s/it/it is/
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timotimo nah, we have CArray for that 22:28
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gfldex m: dd &fail 22:36
camelia Sub fail = sub fail (| is raw) { #`(Sub|60576296) ... } 22:37
gfldex this seams to point to the proto. Is there a way to get hold of a specific multi candidate?
geekosaur m: dd &fail.^candidates 22:38
camelia No such method 'candidates' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
geekosaur sigh
m: dd &fail.candidates 22:39
camelia (sub fail ( --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|37020544) ... }, sub fail (Exception:U $e --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|37020696) ... }, sub fail ($payload --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|37021152) ... }, sub fail (|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil) { #`(S…
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gfldex m: dd &fail.candidates».signature.grep(* ~~ :(|cap is raw (*@msg))) 22:42
camelia ().Seq
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gfldex m: dd &fail.candidates».signature.grep(* ~~ :(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil)) 22:42
camelia (:( --> Nil), :(Exception:U $e --> Nil), :($payload --> Nil), :(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil), :(Failure:U $f --> Nil), :(Failure:D $fail --> Nil)).Seq
gfldex m: dd &fail.candidates.grep({.signature ~~ :(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil)}) 22:43
camelia (sub fail ( --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|53990576) ... }, sub fail (Exception:U $e --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|53990728) ... }, sub fail ($payload --> Nil) { #`(Sub+{Callable[Nil]}|53991184) ... }, sub fail (|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil) { #`(S…
timotimo if you have a capture you can use .^can or something to get one that can do what you want
rather than having to grep 22:44
gfldex i want to .wrap the candidate with the right signature
m: dd &fail.candidates.grep({.signature ~~ :(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil)})».signature 22:45
camelia (:( --> Nil), :(Exception:U $e --> Nil), :($payload --> Nil), :(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil), :(Failure:U $f --> Nil), :(Failure:D $fail --> Nil))
gfldex it's matching a bit much
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timotimo you can wrap the whole thing, inspect if the incoming capture is right, then do your stuff or not 22:46
gfldex I want the least fragile possible.
And it may be a good bit faster to wrap only the stuff that needs wrapping. 22:47
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timotimo it's not enough to add a new candidate in a lexical scope, yeah? you need the whole-program effect of the wrap? 22:48
gfldex yes 22:49
timotimo OK
gfldex I want to .wrap the fail candidate that works on Str and add ANSI red to it `if $*IN.t`. 22:50
Not speed critical in this case but would be nice to have a method to do so if possible. 22:51
m: dd &fail.candidates».signature.grep(:(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil) ~~ *)
camelia (:(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil),).Seq
gfldex HA!
timotimo oh 22:52
it's not fail that's outputting stuff, you know?
well, it generates a message, i guess
Voldenet uh, i think I didn't get through
hm, what's the type for Null in CArray?
timotimo can you elaborate a bit more?
Voldenet I need to pass a null-delimited array to execv, something like: { "/bin/ls", "-l", NULL } 22:53
timotimo oh
easy. if it's a CArray[CString] just put in CString
i.e. the type object
because type objects are perl6's version of "undefined"/"no value"
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Voldenet no such thing as CString 22:54
and using Str doesn't work at all, hm 22:56
gfldex m: dd &fail.candidates.grep(:(|cap is raw (*@msg) --> Nil) ~~ *)».signature
camelia Type check failed in binding to '$e'; expected Exception but got Signature (:(|cap is raw (*@msg)...)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo oh, yes! you're right 22:57
it has to be CArray[Str]
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timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/....t#L26-L37 - here's some tests that use CArray[Str] 22:59
we might want to put in a test to cover passing a Str to get a null
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Voldenet so, eh, apparently invoking execv from perl6 isn't as straightforward 23:15
gfldex m: &fail.candidates[2].wrap({ say "foo" }); fail "oi‽" 23:17
camelia Cannot invoke object with invocation handler in this context
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
gfldex there goes my nice idea :( 23:18
Voldenet Any idea what's wrong with this: ix.io/pfC 23:20
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timotimo Voldenet: huh, doesn't that have to set $argc + 1 to Str? 23:33
m: my @argv = <hello how are you>; my $path = "me"; my @result; @result[0] = $path; $argc = @argv.elems + 1; for ^@argv.elems { @result[$_ + 1] = ~(@argv[$_]) }; @result[$argc] = 0; dd @result 23:34
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$argc' is not declared. Did you mean '@argv'?
at <tmp>:1
------> 3= "me"; my @result; @result[0] = $path; 7⏏5$argc = @argv.elems + 1; for ^@argv.elem
timotimo m: my @argv = <hello how are you>; my $path = "me"; my @result; @result[0] = $path; my $argc = @argv.elems + 1; for ^@argv.elems { @result[$_ + 1] = ~(@argv[$_]) }; @result[$argc] = 0; dd @result
camelia Array @result = ["me", "hello", "how", "are", "you", 0]
timotimo no, it's fine
can you find out what strace thinks is going on? 23:35
Voldenet timotimo: basically this, execve("ls", ["ls", "-la"], [/* 22 vars */]) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) 23:37
Yeah, maybe I don't have ls in my system
:D
timotimo are you sure execve will use $PATH for you? 23:38
stackoverflow says: execve() does not look at PATH; for that, you need execvp(). 23:39
Special semantics for execlp() and execvp()
The execlp(), execvp(), and execvpe() functions duplicate the actions
of the shell in searching for an executable file if the specified file‐ 23:40
name does not contain a slash (/) character.
raschipi You can tell by the p.
timotimo p stands for path?
raschipi yeah
timotimo earlier today i heard p stands for pot. 420 blaze it!
Voldenet hmm, still doesn't work with p on the end though 23:41
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raschipi Are you using a Unix-like OS? 23:43
Voldenet obviously, a debian
timotimo downloads teh code 23:44
Voldenet huh, strace does see a write syscall
raschipi Of course, since you used strace above
Voldenet ...but it doesn't output anything to the stdout 23:45
timotimo ah, yeah
it's trying to write to stdout
but it doesn't know that libuv already configured stdout to be quite a strange beast
so it's not talking to it properly
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timotimo and boom, it's getting "bad file descriptor" errors when trying to write its result to stdout 23:47
then it's trying to output the error to stderr
but stderr is configured the same way as stdout
so it just gets EBADF there, too
then it gives up and exits with code 2
geekosaur actually that sounds weird. does libuv really move stdout and stderr away from fds 1, 2?
timotimo no, it does not 23:48
or ... maybe it does?
geekosaur EBADF is only returned if the fd is closed
timotimo oh? huh. 23:49
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timotimo reads closely the full strace log 23:50
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geekosaur or if it's not open in write / read-write moe 23:51
timotimo here it dup3s 9 (which is /dev/tty) to 0
geekosaur but that would be even weirder
timotimo and then the same to 1
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timotimo i don't know most of these ioctls, FIONBIO? TCGETS? 23:52
Voldenet TCGETS is used to get termios 23:53
geekosaur non-blocking I/O for the first (old way; why???)
and also used incidentally by the isatty() check to see if it should use line vs. block buffering
(default line for ttys, block for everything else)
timotimo anyway, i'm late for bed 23:54
geekosaur those last 2 lines are about TCGETS
timotimo have fun figuring this out :) :)
may be enough to just close 0, 1, and 2 and opening then dup3ing /dev/stdin, stdout, and stderr in
hah, stat 4 times, then open 23:55
for many, many things, everything related to precomp and module loading
5 times in this instance here
geekosaur stackoverflow.com/questions/1150635...vs-fionbio fwiw 23:56
but I kinda want to slap anyone using FIONBIO for anything but a quick port of a 4.2BSD program >.>
timotimo feel free to ask the libuv people what their reasons are 23:57
they probably have some
Voldenet hmmm, hmmm, obviously perl5's exec doesn't work all that well 23:59

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