»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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Geth doc: a24b3fa998 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6
clarify phrasing
 00:29
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lookatme morning 00:32
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kybr gist.github.com/kybr/3577b4e69493e...101d6b4774 thoughts? 00:43
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lookatme I think it's ok. 01:00
timotimo i'm not sure what "a small Num" means 01:01
oooh 01:02
you were expecting a Rat every time
you might have to create all the parts as FatRat to make that work properly
rat will turn into num if the denominator overflows a 64bit int or something like that 01:03
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Will "Coke" Coleda 'clarify phrasing' 01:06
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252224839 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/29e7f...4b3fa998fc
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timotimo kybr: does that help? 01:07
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lookatme timotimo, Can you help me? This is a problem about **require** : gist.github.com/araraloren/ea1bf8d...45f778fc43 01:12
Geth doc: db9bfdba9b | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | htmlify.p6
remove commented out code
 01:14
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timotimo m: say (require ::("foobar")).perl 01:22
camelia Could not find foobar at line 0 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
CompUnit::Repository::Absolut…
timotimo ah
i expect we're not generating a call to .sink for require statements
that's why a failure is created, but just disappears into the ether
kybr timotimo: yes. thanks. i'll try using FatRat internal to the sub 01:23
timotimo kybr: FatRat is "infectious", so you probably only need to turn one of the things into a FatRat. just gotta be the right one :) 01:25
ideally the first one that'll be executed, precedence-wise
lookatme timotimo, But if no require, the line 11 ` @plugins.push(::($plugin.^name)::Compiler.new);` would be failed 01:26
timotimo m: require ::("omgwhat"); say ::("omgwhat").perl 01:27
camelia Could not find omgwhat at line 0 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
CompUnit::Repository::Absolu…
timotimo oh, huh. so where'd the failure come from ...
lookatme github.com/araraloren/perl6-app-sn...t/C.pm6#L5 01:28
This is the class/module I want import 01:29
timotimo i always get tripped up about how exactly you get something into your code with require only
lookatme rakudo report it can not find App::snippet::C::Compiler if missing require 01:30
timotimo yeah 01:33
let me clone all of this
actually i'm far past my bedtime >_< 01:36
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timotimo huh, could it be that the plugins call actually returns the things loaded? 01:40
lookatme I think no way
wait me try 01:41
timotimo it totally is! \o/ 01:43
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timotimo you may have to do something ugly like $plugin.WHO<Compiler>.new 01:45
lookatme timotimo, it can not get inner name of module
timotimo and printing the .perl of that says it's a App::snippet::C::App::snippet::C::Compiler.new
lookatme oh
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timotimo good night! 01:48
lookatme timotimo, seems like ok now, thanks
good night
timotimo YW
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lookatme Maybe there is a problem with require. Or there are something else I didn't know 02:32
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kybr is anyone using this: github.com/samgwise/Net-OSC 02:43
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Geth doc: 1df9aecb6b | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6
Minor grammar change to Hash section
 03:34
doc: 35800ae146 | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod6
Little update to ibus-daemon suggestion

This change works a little better and the --desktop option can have odd side effects.
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evanm Hi, I'm trying to figure out a strange error message when I have a sub-signature 04:02
seems to have been brought up before here: rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=123116 04:03
but I still see it with the latest rakudo
p6: sub foo(&block (Int --> Bool)) { say "thanks" }; foo(sub (Int $x) { Bool($x) })
camelia Too few positionals passed to 'foo'; expected 1 argument but got 0 in sub-signature of parameter &block
in sub foo at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
 04:04
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evanm The "Too few positionals passed" error message doesn't make any sense. Similar NativeCall functions work fine. 04:06
ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x) { say "thank you" }) 04:12
camelia thank you
ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int --> Bool)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x --> Bool) { say "thank you" })
camelia thank you
ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int --> Bool)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x) { say "thank you" })
camelia Constraint type check failed in binding to parameter '&block'; expected anonymous constraint to be met but got Sub (sub (Int $x) { #`(Sub...)
in sub foo at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
 04:13
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geekosaur that last is kinda a lousy error 04:14
message
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evanm So I take it that this works if a colon is placed after &block 04:20
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travis-ci Doc build errored. Samantha McVey 'Little update to ibus-daemon suggestion 04:24
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252253789 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/db9bf...800ae14690
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buggable [travis build above] ✓ All failures are due to timeout (1), missing build log (0), GitHub connectivity (0), or failed make test (0). 04:24
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Geth doc: 9a9465fe0d | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Type/List.pod6
Use routine roundrobin instead of sub roundrobin

sub roundrobin doesn't match what we use anywhere else in the docs or on the same page as well.		 05:04
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Geth doc: 0b005062fb | (Samantha McVey)++ | 19 files
Replace occurances of =head2 sub with routine for consistency
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Geth doc: 1274f18751 | (Samantha McVey)++ | .travis.yml
Don't highlight Travis CI build to speed up build times

Hopefully this will prevent the build from timing out and going over the Travis max numbers of minutes.		 05:32
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travis-ci Doc build errored. Samantha McVey 'Use routine roundrobin instead of sub roundrobin 05:54
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252268288 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/35800...9465fe0d41
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buggable [travis build above] ✓ All failures are due to timeout (1), missing build log (0), GitHub connectivity (0), or failed make test (0). 05:55
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Samantha McVey 'Replace occurances of =head2 sub with routine for consistency' 06:01
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252270996 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/9a946...005062fb63
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 06:01
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Samantha McVey 'Don't highlight Travis CI build to speed up build times 06:07
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252272568 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/0b005...74f18751bb
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 06:07
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samcv well i think it's *actually* failing but i have no clue why 06:31
now that i set it to just to bigpage
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lizmat clickbaits p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/07/10/...do-is-hot/ 07:40
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parv wonders (bit haugty) why do people need to make their life diffcult (www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....988.html)? 07:57
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lizmat wonders about that a lot 08:00
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araraloren evening 11:37
lizmat araraloren o/ 11:39
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pmurias what would be a good way to parse a signature in string form? 13:15
I want to parse something like 'Backtrace::Frame:D: --> Int' into something I can work on 13:16
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robertle 444444 13:22
sorry
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lizmat pmurias: in Perl 6 code? 13:29
perhaps split on ('::',':','-->',' ') ??
multi-fixed string split is pretty fast 13:30
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moritz $x where { $x ~~ / '::' .+ 'x' / } 13:31
pmurias lizmat: I can use NQP or nqp:: level ops if it's the best way
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moritz valid signature too 13:31
lizmat pmurias: then you're outta luck on the multi-fixed string split
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pmurias I'm mostly concerned with parsing the signatures that we have in our core docs 13:38
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araraloren parsing signature string ? 13:38
pmurias araraloren: in the docs we have 'Defined as method line(Backtrace::Frame:D: --> Int)' 13:40
araraloren: I want to make the stuff in the signature clickable
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pmurias so that you can click on the subparts of signatures in my doc viewer: 6docs.github.io/awesome-p6docs/typ...ace::Frame 13:41
araraloren oh, great idea
pmurias argh, broken link 13:42
araraloren maybe you can stole something from rakudo/nqp source code 13:45
or create your own grammar
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od1 hello people 13:49
araraloren hi od1 13:50
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pmurias araraloren: I played around with stealing parts of Rakudo's grammar but some stuff like default values require the whole thing 13:58
araraloren: I think I should either use the full one or fix up Perl6::Parser
araraloren hmm 14:00
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pmurias fixed link to my (early WIP) doc viewer: 6docs.github.io/type/Backtrace::Frame 14:34
one that actually works: 6docs.github.io 14:35
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Ven`` .u [^-'] 14:37
yoleaux U+0027 APOSTROPHE [Po] (')
U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS [Pd] (-)
U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET [Ps] ([)
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ambs either I do not know how to fake a from e-mail address, or ezml is too intelligent. 14:54
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timotimo 163011 pmurias │ fixed link to my (early WIP) doc viewer: 6docs.github.io/type/Backtrace::Frame 15:30
oops 15:31
that 404s :(
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ugexe for allowing commit-ids, tags, etc in git urls does it make sense to use # instead of @ as the uri / commit-id separator? e.g. `github.com/ugexe/zef.git#v0.1.15` instead of `github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.15`? I believe the later is not a valid uri 15:39
raschipi It's a valid url, but everything before the @ is a username 15:40
user:password@domain.name/path 15:41
ugexe can you have a user with no password / colon separator in a valid uri? 15:42
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perlpilot tools.ietf.org/html/std66#section-3.3 15:43
raschipi Yes, if the [:password] part is missing it's considered a user without password. Colon separator would be invalid in most servers but it's not forbidden in the URI.
perlpilot Read the last paragraph of section 3.3 :-) 15:44
ugexe oh i've read it a few times... I have a URI grammar in both Grammar::HTTP and Zef::Utils::URI. i just know i never thought about those cases enough to test 15:45
perlpilot and "@" is explicitly listed as one of the valid chars in a path segment.
ugexe i wonder where my grammar was getting caught up then 15:47
raschipi I see, the "authority segment" has to end at the first slash, that's what I was missing. 15:48
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ugexe ah so @ can go in the path, but there doesn't appear to be any rules for handling it as anything other than a regular charater in the path 15:54
nicq20 When messing with slangs and the grammar, what does an action need to return for statement_control? 16:03
timotimo you usually don't return things from action methods
i expect you mean "make" instead of "return"? 16:04
nicq20 Oops, yes.
timotimo i guess you'll make some sort of qast node (or rather tree)
nicq20 New to slangs and stuff sorry.
Something along the lines of a QAST::Op? 16:05
timotimo i'd have to look through Perl6/Actions.nqp
nicq20 Ok. I'm looking at this for reference: github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/...ng/SQL.pm6 16:06
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araraloren_ That codes already outdate 16:09
nicq20 That could be why I'm having trouble. (Possibly)
araraloren_ You can refer some other slang module 16:10
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araraloren_ night 16:11
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nicq20 See ya. 16:11
ugexe how is it outdated?
last I knew it worked 16:12
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ugexe tony-o: ^ 16:13
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nicq20 Anyone happen to know what this error means: `New type for Perl6::Grammar must have a matching representation (P6opaque vs Uninstantiable)` 16:24
Huh, I can't even find this error in rakudo or nqp. 16:29
timotimo it's inside moarvm 16:35
you're trying to rebless something?
maybe you're passing something incompatible to the augment_slang (or whatever) method? 16:37
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TimToady yes, that slang code is outdated; nobody should be setting %*LANG any more except for compat with old versions 16:51
tony-o that's the only part of the slang that is outdated, i haven't looked up the new way to integrate the slang yet 16:52
yoleaux 10 Jun 2017 20:20Z <eveo> tony-o: tony-o/perl6-http-server-threaded and perl6/perl6-http-server-async appear to be the same module. Should one of them be removed from the ecosystem?
tony-o eveo: they're different modules. 16:53
TimToady nowadays you should just be able to say $*LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', SQL::Grammar, SQL::Actions) or so
for define_slang, you'd have to do your own mixins, but refine_slang will do the mixins for you
one can put both ways into their own try, so it works with both old and new rakudos 16:55
or however you say that grammatical-like 16:56
tony-o m: %*LANG.^methods.say;
camelia (DESTROY AT-POS AT-KEY defined handled Int Num Numeric Set SetHash Bag BagHash Mix MixHash mess sink self CALL-ME FALLBACK STORE new Bool Str gist perl exception backtrace AT-POS AT-KEY BIND-KEY ASSIGN-KEY STORE iterator sink unshift chrs gist BIND-POS N…
tony-o hmm.. i wonder if my moar is broken
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TimToady %*LANG is still there, but mainly only to catch old usages and warn 16:57
eventually it will go away
tony-o oh oops
i'm on nom - maybe i'm broken
TimToady refine_slang is more recent than define_slang, so you might not have ityet
tony-o it finds the method for me, just complains about MRO 16:58
Incompatible MROs in P6opaque rebless for types
guess i should work on updating this sooner rather than later
timotimo might have to make your grammar and actions roles instead of classes? 16:59
tony-o they're both roles 17:00
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Zoffix tony-o: what's the actual code you're using? 17:02
buggable: eco bioperl
buggable Zoffix, BioPerl6 'Collection of Bioinformatics classes, roles, and modules': github.com/cjfields/bioperl6 17:03
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Zoffix umm.. nope not it 17:03
tony-o gist.github.com/tony-o/a7958c38482...e1-txt-L74
Zoffix tony-o: you're giving it your own grammar instead of having it mixed into main lang. Here: github.com/MattOates/BioInfo/blob/...m6#L37-L39 17:04
tony-o with define_slang it get the error that ::Grammar needs to be uninstantiable or P6Opaque so that may be a clue
ah 17:05
Zoffix tony-o: oh wait
tony-o: see you're using .refine_slang instead of define slang. I've not heard that one yet
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TimToady I added it at tpc::na :) 17:06
Zoffix Ah
TimToady it's not heavily tested yet...
Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar; 17:07
camelia 42
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Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, class {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar; 17:07
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
An exception occurred while evaluating a BEGIN
at <tmp>:1
Exception details:
5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling
Cannot find method 'specialize' on object of type Perl6::Metamodel::ClassH…
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TimToady those have to be roles, yes 17:09
Zoffix Ah
m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, role {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar;
camelia ===SORRY!===
Incompatible MROs in P6opaque rebless for types Perl6::Grammar and Perl6::Actions+{<anon|56403104>}
TimToady hmm 17:10
Zoffix Ah, I see the bug
It's trying to mix it into MAIN instead of MAIN-actions
TimToady ah, that'd do it :)
Zoffix I mean bind to
Zoffix hackety hacks
TimToady has not used it with actions yet
obviously...
tony-o: anyway, define_slang with your own mixin should work fine till that bubbles through 17:11
tony-o thanks TimToady and Zoffix - fixes to bring the slang up to date have been pushed
TimToady you'll want to mix in with what you pull out via $*LANG.grammar and $*.actions, iirc
er, $*LANG.grammar('MAIN') and $*LANG.actions.slang('MAIN') I should say 17:12
in lieu of reading from %*LANG
tony-o nicq20: Slang::SQL should be up to date now
TimToady all that boilerplate is why we have refine_slang now :) 17:13
tony-o TimToady: ++
nicq20-mobile Woo! Thanks
TimToady even if it doesn't quite work yet...
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tony-o haha :-) 17:13
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nicq20-mobile Are there any docs about the kind of stuff? 17:15
*this
TimToady not very; this is all the internals that we'll eventual build slang syntax with
*ly 17:16
tony-o next 'to-do' on that module is interpolating variables
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nicq20-mobile Ah, ok. Any chance there's something in QAST? 17:20
*on
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nicq20-mobile Gee whiz this keyboard. 17:20
Zoffix nicq20-mobile: github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/d...t.markdown 17:21
Not this is unofficial-we-can-change-it-any-time-we-want-without-warning-use-at-your-own-risk type of stuff
nicq20-mobile Well, it's better than my current knowledge. :) 17:22
Zoffix Also...
huggable: nqp course 17:23
huggable Zoffix, nothing found
Zoffix huggable: internals course
huggable Zoffix, nothing found
Zoffix you suck
nicq20-mobile This is how the robot uprising starts...
Zoffix huggable: internals course :is: Rakudo/NQP Internals Course: github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nq...s-workshop 17:24
huggable Zoffix, Added internals course as Rakudo/NQP Internals Course: github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nq...s-workshop
Zoffix Slightly outdated in places but gives you a general idea
Compiler I built during the course: github.com/perl7/perl7/
nicq20-mobile Oh, cool! That will help a lot. 17:27
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Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang("MAIN", role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, role {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar; 17:51
camelia 42
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Zoffix tony-o: ^ there. Fixed forever. 17:51
Zoffix flies away into the sunset 17:52
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tony-o lmao 18:20
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nemo So. I was reading docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry 18:34
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nemo "You may have issues using the compose key in all programs. the xim input method requires no extra installation, but it will not work with high codepoint values, such as emoji. " ← that's false 18:34
you can absolutely put emoji into .XCompose - hell that's one of my main uses for it
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nemo m8y.org/tmp/XCompose.txt ← a simple example 18:35
github.com/kragen/xcompose/blob/ma...otXCompose has no emoji, but you could easily extend it if for some reason you wanted to inflict those on your perl6
timotimo but xim isn't xcompose? 18:38
nemo timotimo: yesitis
geekosaur xcompose is the configuration file for xim 18:39
timotimo interesting
nemo so yeah. no idea who wrote that but is wildly off
XCompose forever!!@!
geekosaur someone was testing in gtk, I bet 18:40
nemo is my fav 'cause it works everywhere and has a relatively easy config file 😃
geekosaur: that seems plausible
that is. ignoring the xim part
geekosaur gtk apps have a cut-down xim implementation
nemo geekosaur: yep. that's why the section above has the override instructions
geekosaur: gtk has this harcoded useless thing
geekosaur yep
nemo geekosaur: it isn't xim at all really
geekosaur but I suspect not everything honors the override
nemo geekosaur: ummm 18:41
geekosaur: everything gtk does
for qt apps not using a bridge would need the qt override
but it is similar
geekosaur: native X apps would not need the override
geekosaur: you're going to have the exact same problem w/ uim tho
anyway regardless that sentence is simply wrong
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geekosaur sadly, not *everything* gtk. I have certainly seen gtk programs that override (literally overwrite) your env config 18:43
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geekosaur because gtk3/gnome devs know better than us little people 18:43
nemo geekosaur: huh. which program? so I may blacklist it? 18:44
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nemo I already have a long blacklist that amounts to "everything written by Lennart Poettering" 18:45
(well, on the gentoo machines - on ubuntu the fix will be devuan once EOL is reached on LTS)
mst nemo++ 18:46
nemo mst: m8y.org/tmp/package_mask.txt I don't take credit for it. and tbh systemd bothers me way more than pulseaudio which is of more limited scope 18:49
anyway. OT
raschipi Debian works fine without systemd. Devuan only use is to show people that dislike systemd have no idea what they're doing. 18:55
nemo raschipi: I have no interest in maintaining a distro myself. devuan is a convenience 18:56
hahainternet is Devuan even alive?
every time i've seen it linked there's virtually no activity
nemo git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages/activity 18:57
hahainternet nemo: that's what i mean, that's very dead
nemo oh? seems active enough to me. there's not that much that needs to be done to change debian 18:58
as raschipi noted
hahainternet: just blacklisting and shims
same reason gentoo works fine without it
raschipi "there's not that much". They are two years late in their releases and the most recent debian release was very big. reaally big. 18:59
hahainternet nemo: i can't say whether or not devuan works fine, but i don't see any evidence of actual use in any volume
for example, there are many many open issues, many without comments, many from months ago
nemo plausible. but then. debian is already smaller than ubuntu so doesn't surprise me devuan would be even smaller
raschipi They won't be able to complete the GCC 7 migration at all.
Ubuntu is smaller than debian 19:00
nemo in terms of user base?
that seems a little unlikely
hahainternet i think he means packages 19:01
and i'm not sure, it's likely to be quite even
nemo hahainternet: packages not surprising since it is a derivative. all debian-based will be smaller
and devuan is indeed quite tiny by that measure
hahainternet anyhow, there's (imo) very few non anti-poettering reasons for abandoning systemd 19:02
and i have been a linux admin for more than half my life now :(
afaik devuan have put absolutely zero compelling arguments forward
nemo without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/...st_systemd 19:03
raschipi I mean in relation to development effort
hahainternet nemo: this is just a link of links, few of which have any value
nemo shrugs
hahainternet: I anticipated that. but at least you can't say nothing was presented
my very very fav rant, the more fundamental one, was wizardofbits.tumblr.com/post/452323...shit-stemd plus was entertaining 19:04
setting aside the stupid bugs and responses
but again this is soooo OT
I just came by to try and get that perl6 unicode page corrected ☺ 19:05
hahainternet ☺
but this page is nonsense, it insists you should keep old init, because it 'monitors' processes, but it doesn't
so the whole page is dead
nemo m8y.org/tmp/unicodesilliness.txt
hahainternet oh interesting, i use those graph characters to draw graphs
on a different channel
nemo hahainternet: I'd say the heart of that page is... "YOU LOSE. YOU LOST WHEN YOU DECIDED THAT PID 1 SHOULD DO A LOT."
hahainternet nemo: but i don't lose, my systemd boxes are significantly more useful than my sysvinit boxes 19:06
nemo that's missing the point
hahainternet: m8y.org/tmp/chess2.txt + m8y.org/tmp/temp3.txt
hahainternet: we were playing games on IRC
hahainternet nemo: yeah i've done that too, won a chess game entirely done through irc :) 19:07
nemo hahainternet: sure. but maybe the board layout is new
hahainternet nemo: haha, nice PM, and i've read the page now and the only compelling argument is against d-bus 19:08
but named pipes do not replace d-bus
and d-bus will become a kernel mediated system bus
which is an improved design
so again the argument falls away
nemo ಠ_ಠ 19:09
oh well whatever
don't really care. choice right!
geekosaur no, actually, kdbus is a hack because userspace dbus is a steaming pipe
*pile
nemo "you're entitled to your incorrect opinion" to use the standard internet line
hahainternet geekosaur: kdbus is long dead
github.com/bus1
geekosaur so whgat is the new kernel mediated "hotness" to work around dbus being crap? 19:10
hahainternet 'work around'
it provides a bus
that is the point
geekosaur just keep trying to fix dbus by not fixing it, of course
hahainternet what?
geekosaur shove it into the kernel, we don;t need to fix our crap code
hahainternet what are you talking about geekosaur, bus1 is not dbus is not kdbus 19:11
the concept of a kernel mediated system bus is a reasonable thing
lizmat .ask perlawhirl should this say True or False in your book: say <a b c>.Mix ⊄ <a b b c d>.Mix
yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to perlawhirl.
nemo geekosaur: remember this one from last year ? www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_cra..._one_tweet
geekosaur see, I think properly done system bus and properly done systemd would be good things. I just do not trust the current developers to program their way out of a wet paper bag, and they keep demonstrating they cannot be trusted to do so 19:12
hahainternet nobody can be trusted to do so
nemo I trust BSD folks more
hahainternet nobody writes bug-free code
geekosaur ...
hahainternet apple did not verify SSL certificates for significant amounts of time 19:13
BSD has CVEs just like everyone else
geekosaur right, nobody is in any way shape or form competent so their incomptence is fully justified
hahainternet recently all Linux software was determined to be able to violate stack guard pages
nemo heh
hahainternet geekosaur: who do you trust to write good code?
nemo so because all software has some flaws therefore all software is equivalent in quality ☺
I've heard that argument used in favour of C over Rust too
hahainternet that's not the argument i made, but hey 19:14
nemo can write bugs in rust, why try to improve verification?
hahainternet i agree verification should be improved
moritz 21:13 < hahainternet> geekosaur: who do you trust to write good code?
nemo 15:12 < nemo> I trust BSD folks more
15:13 < hahainternet> BSD has CVEs just like everyone else
hahainternet but you cannot trust any developer
moritz finally a question I can answer
nobody!
nemo you went straight to an absolute
hahainternet hi moritz :)
geekosaur hahainternet, you just made that argument again
hahainternet nemo: because that's the reality
geekosaur so much for not making it
nemo ok. just saying. that was the argument you made
hahainternet no, i didn't, i'm not saying "you should trust all developers equally"
geekosaur nobody is operfect, therefore provably bad is good
nemo 😃 19:15
hahainternet i am saying nobody is perfect, so the phrase "trust the current developers" is meaningless
because you should trust no developers
nemo moritz: hey... can you fix that docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry.html ? That's why I came here
geekosaur ...
timotimo nemo: there ought to be a link to the github repo at the botto
m
geekosaur yes, trust is all or nothing, there is no such thing as some being more trustworthy than others
never has been, never will be
timotimo so you don't have to rely on any dev to do it for you
hahainternet geekosaur: how do you measure trustworthy? 19:16
nemo timotimo: ah yes. "just issue a PR"
Triplefox trust is many dimensional
nemo and wait
timotimo: all I want is 'he xim input method requires no extra installation, but it will not work with high codepoint values, such as emoji.' deleted
as wrong
hahainternet nemo: you can make pull requests specifically on github
without having to do anything else
geekosaur hahainternet, for starters, does not release as a production version code that has not been tested. which poettering does continually, and red hat pushes into production and shoves down everyone's throat continuously 19:17
hahainternet geekosaur: what do you mean by 'has not been tested'?
geekosaur what is *wrong* with you? 19:18
hahainternet afaik systemd doesn't even have the concept of 'production version'
moritz geekosaur, hahainternet: could you please move to channel where you discussion is more on topic? Thanks
*to a channel
grammar is hard
geekosaur I'm just dropping it because there is no discussion here
timotimo nemo: but the "requires no extra installation" part can stay? 19:19
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geekosaur yes, it's built into X11 19:19
nemo timotimo: ↑ 19:20
timotimo: it's just that it reads awkwardly without the last part 19:21
so might as well just drop the whole phrase
samcv seems to be the one who added it. *shrug*
timotimo k
nemo github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0d4110...d20321ac42
Geth doc: 580bb6a9a8 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod6
remove counterfactual statement. nemo++
 19:22
timotimo how's that?
nemo thanks. my OCD is assuaged
timotimo: also big fan of my gigantic .XCompose - works on almost everything, and I even have lil' perl script to use it with ctrl-a+v from tmux to replace the missing screen functionality 19:23
timotimo: although frankly I'd be surprised ibus would ever work better than xim in terms of cross-framework support - but who knows. depending one's system, if ibus is already setup correctly, might be easier to use that 19:24
there is an ibus-xim bridge I think 19:25
geekosaur ibus --xim
nemo ah. that simple. cool.
geekosaur: but then if you're using that, why would emoji be an issue. so confused ☺ 19:26
anyway. fixed so moving on
hahainternet: BTW. WRT those silly unicode snippets. this one on the page was golfed to smallest size possible in bash with help of #bash 19:27
hahainternet:
for i in {0..63};{((i%16!=11&&i%16<14))&&C+=($((i+127137)));};n=52;for i in {1..5};{((x=RANDOM%n--,y=C[x],C[x]=C[n]));printf "\U`printf %x $y` ";}
it actually draws a shuffled poker hand ☺
my initial variant was much less terse 19:28
s/shuffled/random/
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cxreg anyone aware of an ongoing attempt to get rakudo running on wasm? (with or without moarvm) 19:48
moritz not 19:51
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kybr IO::Socket::Async does not allow setting the source port. can someone correct me if i'm wrong? 19:52
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cxreg moritz: I've been at nodesource for a while so I'm shoulder deep in libuv, v8, etc 19:53
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Timo Paulssen 'remove counterfactual statement. nemo++' 19:53
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252540300 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/1274f...0bb6a9a8c1
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 19:53
cxreg moritz: thinking of giving something a whirl, just looking for a jumping off point 19:54
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timotimo kybr: it appears you are correct 19:57
kybr does this go all the way down to nqp? moar? 19:58
moritz my own incoherent ramblings on the Perl 6 naming debate: perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2017-01...ation.html 20:02
even with a typo in the URL. great.
kybr timotimo: thanks. i'm trying to do this: stackoverflow.com/questions/987306...ocket-in-c 20:03
timotimo ah, for udp 20:05
we support it for neither tcp nor udp ;( 20:06
cxreg moritz: what ever happened to Camilia as a potential name?
[Coke] moritz++ 20:07
moritz cxreg: I have no idea. I don't even know if anybody inside the Perl 6 community ever liked it, or seriously proposed it 20:09
[Coke] that never really had traction, I don't think.
moritz so far I've mostly heard that from p5 folks, and I feel free to ignore those suggestions
cxreg fair :)
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ranguard moritz: "Two years ago, I didn't believe. Now you're reading a tired man's words. 20:13
p5 people have had that for many many many more years, so please don't just ignore them.. some of us are VERY tired 20:14
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ranguard s/very tired/have given up/ 20:15
moritz ranguard: I don't ignore people suggesting Perl 6 should rename. I ignore suggestions for specific names that come from outside the Perl 6 community
and that seem to point to any possible name, regardless of its quality, just to have it not be called "Perl 6" anymore 20:16
cxreg what about naming it PERL :D
ranguard specific names, fair enough.. naming is hard :) 20:17
cxreg I still maintain btw that after spending a year deep in node.js adoption land, that the space is ripe for the taking 20:18
mindshare is hard :/
Zoffix moritz++ yey! You didn't waste my time with the post :) It's perfectly valid to not like "Rakudo Perl 6". As I've said, that name is not ideal due to exactly the reasons you stated, but it's probably the only one that could be forced into use by the "rebels" so to speak if there is no official stance on extending the name. My hope is a better extension can be made by people in power to change names. 20:19
[Coke] "extension" ? 20:20
Zoffix I would be perfectly fine with "Something Perl 6" where "Something" is selected entirely by TimToady and is officially declared to be so
moritz let's call it "Ruby Perl 6". 20:21
cxreg Mu
timotimo Perlinius 6
Zoffix [Coke]: some feel "Perl" branding is valuable, so the current proposal is not to "change" the name but to extend it with an extra word
moritz: clearly it should be Ruby 3 Perl 6. Make it impossible for them to release the next major version :p 20:22
cxreg I think maybe that's mostly nostalgia and emotion on the part of the suggester, more than current reality. imho.
[Coke] Zoffix: thank you for the clarification. 20:23
Zoffix & shopping
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[Coke] m: say "\c[ZERO WIDTH SPACE]Perl 6" # dad joke level? 20:23
camelia ​Perl 6
tbrowder Turbo Perl 6 20:24
Mod Perl 6 20:25
zengargoyle sorry to have missed the Input Method bashing, ibus vs xim vs uim is a total PITA for me... must read some of nemo++ links.
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zengargoyle between input methods and fonts and HiDPI display i'm sorta in a only half way works as much as it used to point in life. :/ 20:27
timotimo .o( camelious ) 20:28
cxreg zengargoyle: ibus -> ibis -> www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO-OpFjHRbE 20:29
raschipi Royal Perl6
zengargoyle cxreg: arrrghh me has PTSD about birds. :) 20:31
El_Che I think what Zoffix's post proofs is that the naming discussion wasn"t settled with a weak compromise (one that no one was really happy with) as many hoped and that the discussion will come back from time to time 20:33
whatver the course, I would prefer not see see aninomisity between perl5 and 6 people 20:34
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zengargoyle gokuraku -- sorta same roots. (1) (Buddh) Sukhavati (Amitabha's Pure Land)/(2) paradise/(P)/ 'tis the thing you say when slipping into a nice hot bath. 20:36
zengargoyle tends more to the just call it p6. 20:37
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Zoffix Why not Z9? 20:39
Triplefox Java Perl 6...now for jvm
zengargoyle r4o 20:40
El_Che maybe the relation with ruby and elixir could be an example?
zengargoyle .... r5o
urlang
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zengargoyle glot -- if we go back to the idea of slangs and univerality. 20:43
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Zoffix meh 20:44
El_Che The Perls could be too close to C and C++ (where the naming suggest an enhancement but many people don't agree)
zengargoyle has an unnatural desire for mixing languages like Inline::* on steroids. one sub in p6, one in forth, one in prolog, etc. 20:45
raiph I already know Zoffix's objection to what I suggested but does anyone else object?
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El_Che zengargoyle: you hate your fellow programmers :) 20:45
Zoffix Even I'm unsure what you suggested.... "P6"? 20:46
So it'd be "P6 Perl 6"?
zengargoyle i see a close relation between p5 and p6, maybe it's just coming from a really distant point of view.
raiph No. One would choose P6 or Perl 6 depending on whether or not you wish to emphasize "Perl"
El_Che What about Pisces?
P.+6 20:47
lizmat
.oO( fishy )
[Coke] El_Che: .... sounds fishy
Zoffix Interesting, I see no relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6. Hell, even the sigils are different
[Coke] TOO SLOW!
El_Che even the greek char looks like abutterfly
♓
zengargoyle in the infinite dimensional space, all languages are the same. for me, p5 and p6 share some very similar shadows. 20:48
Zoffix heh
:)
Zoffix &
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El_Che Zoffix6 20:49
zengargoyle like choosing different axioms but arriving at the same spaces of what can be proven and what can't. different incompletes that are close shadows to each other. :) 20:51
zengargoyle thinks *gah* the same peeps thought up both of them...
timotimo zof6? 20:52
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zengargoyle also wonders if anybody else follows Marpa... 20:56
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[Coke] I'm see blog posts every so often, but it seems like a purely academic thing to me. (says the Perl 6 person) 21:13
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evanm Hi, I have a question about the new await behavior described here: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1004 21:23
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evanm My understanding is that if "await" is called by a managed (non-main) thread, the call to "await" may return from a different OS thread 21:26
This appears to be the case from my tests, however it also appears that $*THREAD is not properly updated
So for instance I have two threads running concurrently (post-await) that are reporting the same thread ID 21:27
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evanm Has anyone run into this issue? Or is $*THREAD.id behaving as expected, but my expectations are wrong? 21:28
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Zoffix evanm: no idea about the answer. But if you don't get it today, try asking again on Thursday. Our resident expert who'd know the answer for that question is currently on vacation :) 21:49
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lizmat evanm: that sounds like bug 21:51
if you can golf it, submitting a rakudobug would be appreciated
timotimo we do have something that makes sure dynamic variables from where you called start will stick around for the inside of the start block 21:55
maybe it accidentally keeps the $*THREAD around from where the start was called originally
i haven't looked at the mechanism that does it, i just remember the commit message scroll past
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lizmat ah, that could very well be the reason :-) 21:57
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evanm Thanks. I'll go ahead and file a bug report. What's the vacationing expert's irc handle, so I can make sure it gets attention? 22:03
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zengargoyle evanm: i'd guess jnthn for almost anything dealing with await and threads and concurrency in general. 22:11
evanm timotimo: If you happen to have the commit message handy, I'll include it in the report as a possible lead 22:12
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lizmat evanm: pretty sure the commit message is not very useful, as that would apply to all dynamic variables 22:17
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lizmat whereas the stickiness of $*THREAD when continuing on a different thread is just a side-effect for *that* particular dynamic variable 22:18
it wouldn't matter for any other dynamic variable, unless it has some dependency on the thread ID
but none come to mind right now 22:19
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timotimo i found it 22:21
the message is "Code in start blocks see dynamics of starter"
bedf2a7073042c79b886aec9e39ad8be4b0af498 22:22
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nicq201 What does the '{}' mean in `token comment:sym<#> { '#' {} \N* }` from Grammar.nqp? 22:28
evanm Thanks... my juicy bug report is almost ready.
timotimo it terminates the declarative prefix of the token 22:29
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timotimo since after a # anything is valid, this rule would win over anything else that starts with #, like for example #`( foo ) 22:30
nicq201 So how does #`(foo) get called then? Wouldn't it just be taken by '#'? 22:31
timotimo nope 22:33
it's defined something like #`<opener> {} or something
with LTM (what you get when you use | or protoregex) the longest token matched wins
but only the declarative prefix counts 22:34
nicq201 What exactly is a 'declarative prefix'?
timotimo it's anything from the beginning to the first thing that can't be parsed declaratively (think of it as "parsed by a NFA")
anything that's a traditional, "mathematical" regular expression
no backreferences, no lookarounds, no arbitrary code blocks 22:35
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nicq201 Ok. So between / '#' / and / [ '#' ** 2..3 ] / The first would be the one that would be called? 22:38
(Kind of a poor example, but best I could come up with). 22:39
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timotimo well, if you have #` there, ## can't even match at all 22:42
nicq201 Better example: between `/ '#' {} \N*/` and `/ '##' {} \N*/`, the second would be called given "###Hello"
timotimo that'? right
sorry
that's right
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nicq201 And the reason for choosing the second one is because more of the regex exactly matches. 22:43
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timotimo "exactly" is a strange word for this 22:44
if you have / . {} .* / and / .. {} .* /, the second one also wins 22:45
it's not about whether a match is exact, like a literal vs a character class, or something like that
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nicq201 Hmm... I having some trouble understanding how some of this works. :/ 22:54
Is there a doc on this so that I don't need to bother you? 22:55
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zengargoyle lizmat: thanks for PackUnpack info, looks like it will replace my 'use experimental :pack;' and make some things a bit easier at least until some more official-ish p6-way thing turns up. 23:00
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nicq201 tony-o: Ar you still online? 23:18
*are
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timotimo nicq201: well, the old spec docs are rather exhaustive, but partially obsolete 23:23
S05:1 23:24
synopsebot6 Link: design.perl6.org/S05.html#line_1
nicq201 timotimo: Yeah, I don't really check them for info anymore. :/
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nicq201 Well, the reason I ask was because I was trying to emulate Smart::Comments from P5, and thought it could be a useful way of learning how to make Slangs. 23:31
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nicq201 github.com/nicqrocks/perl6-smart-comments if you want to take a look. 23:33
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timotimo that's cool 23:34
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MasterDuke nicq20: i don't know anything about slangs, but is this relevant? irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-07-11#i_14856952 23:42
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ugexe you can now use git revisions in git uris. both as META6.json "source-url" : "github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.23" or `zef -v install github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.23` 23:48
23:48 dct left 23:52 cpage__ joined 23:54 cpage_ left, cpage__ is now known as cpage_

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