»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
timotimo what you can do to be absolutely sure is open the file, seek to an address, read a single byte, and output that 00:00
Guest89780 in perl?
timotimo for example, yeah
i mean, xxd will give you that, too
and hexdump with the right flag
it's just the default mode of operation for hexdump is not what you'd expect 00:01
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Guest89780 xxd is better than hexdump? 00:01
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timotimo not better, just different 00:02
Guest89780 xxd is more unix-like because three letters is the unix way
timotimo if that's so, why is unix four letters? :D :D
Guest89780 one letter is silent
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Guest89780 or maybe it must be vanity for unix to be more than the parts that make unix 00:03
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timotimo that's deep 00:03
Guest89780 i know right
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Guest89780 wc is two letters 00:03
so there can be less than two 00:04
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Guest89780 but less and more are four 00:04
timotimo there's also just w
Guest89780 today I learned
much
timotimo also, there is [ which you might call "not one letter" in some interpretation of the word 00:05
Guest89780 one character
timotimo yeah
but i don't know a unix command that's less than one character :(
Guest89780 are there binary and hex and oct and other base operations? 00:06
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Guest89780 the search box for the docs is unhelpful 00:06
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timotimo docs.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlfunc#hex 00:06
oct also exists on that page
Guest89780 I mean like bitshifting 00:07
timotimo oh!
Guest89780 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwise_operation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_manipulation
timotimo well, bin/hex/oct really are not really relevant for bitwise operations; the name "bitwise" implies that you operate in base 2 00:08
of course, you can use bitwise operations to do "hex-wise" operations by doing multiple bits at a time
Guest89780 there must be equivalents for other bases though
yeah
timotimo yes, shifting is equivalent to multiplying or dividing by the base
Guest89780 where would one find such documentation? 00:09
timotimo perl6 has bitwise operations with a + at the front, +< and +> are left and right shift, +& and +| are bitwise and and or
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timotimo yeah, the search box is unhelpful here 00:09
Guest89780 are they undocumented?
timotimo that is actually possible, but i suspect they're just not added to the index 00:10
Guest89780 how do you do bit masking?
so +! is not but what about xor? 00:11
timotimo should be +^
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timotimo bit masking is done with +& like you're probably used to 00:12
m: say (0b10101010 +& 0b11110000).base(2) 00:13
camelia 10100000
Guest89780 docs.perl6.org/language/operators 00:14
it would help if there were examples for all of them
timotimo that's true 00:15
Guest89780 so from binary hacking how do you self host?
timotimo you want to write a perl6 compiler and/or runtime starting from x86 machine code? 00:16
Guest89780 by runtime do you mean repl?
or interpreter? 00:17
timotimo think more like what libc is to C
like, the collection of subs and classes you have as a user, and much more
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Guest89780 that is already implemented in perl6 00:17
timotimo that's true 00:18
i don't know where to start answering this question :D 00:19
rakudo sits on top of NQP, which is the part that is self-hosted
Guest89780 what about grammar?
timotimo grammar stuff is implemented in NQP, too
NQP uses a grammar to parse NQP code, rakudo uses a grammar to parse perl6 code 00:20
docs.perl6.org/type/Int - this page also has more information about bases and conversions btw 00:21
Guest89780 so rakudo uses nqp grammars to parse perl6 code?
timotimo that's true, but nqp grammars and perl6 grammars are almost the same
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timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...r.nqp#L466 - here you can see that the perl6 grammar literally derives from HLL::Grammar, which lives in NQP 00:23
github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s...rammar.nqp
Guest89780 where do they go from grammars to binary? 00:24
timotimo there's multiple stages 00:25
Guest89780 are there flowchart diagrams?
uml?
timotimo not uml
if you're interested in the nitty-gritty, there's the internals workshop
Guest89780 dot?
timotimo github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nq...s-workshop
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timotimo the gist of it is, text goes into the grammar, every successfully parsed regex/rule/token causes a method of the same name to be called in the corresponding Actions class, which - together with World - creates an AST + a bunch of objects 00:26
the AST format is called QAST and is made up of nodes like QAST::Op or QAST::Stmts or QAST::Var 00:27
there's the QASTCompiler pieces which are the first bits that are fully backend-specific
so for moarvm you have QASTCompilerMAST (MAST stands for MoarVM AST) and for JVM you have QASTCompilerJAST (Java AST in this case) 00:28
the next step for those is moarvm bytecode on one side and jvm bytecode (.class files inside a .jar file) on the other side
Guest89780 why is there java and c and c++ and perl5 in rakudo? when perl6 can handle binay 00:30
binary*
timotimo multiple reasons 00:31
some low-level ops live in rakudo, for the jvm they are implemented in java, for moarvm they are implemented in C
the tests folder includes C and C++ code to test our foreign-function interface
and we have some perl5 code for our build system, i.e. Configure.pl and code to run the spec test suite (with a perl6 version also available, but only about a year or two old) 00:32
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timotimo i gotta go to bed now, feel free to come back or stick around for more questions. have fun with perl6! o/ 00:37
herby_ o/ 00:38
Guest89780 🦋 00:40
timotimo i put a message into the moderator mail for /r/perl6, herby_ 00:42
herby_ timotimo: thanks!
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timotimo no, thank *you* 00:43
github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1922 - Guest89780 this one is for your issue with bitwise operators not being findable and not having examples 00:47
bye!
Guest89780 timotimo: thanks! 00:48
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Geth perl6.org: ccworld1000++ created pull request #105:
Multilingual translation		 01:14
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Xliff \o 01:35
Been a few weeks.
How are you #perl6?
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Xliff I've been trying to rakudobrew but it is giving me build errors. Should I nuke moar and start over? 01:36
Aand... that seems to have worked. 01:37
geekosaur Xliff, the faster fix is to remove the contents of the directory it complains about early (3rdparty/libatomic_ops) 01:41
git doesn't handle moving things to submodules well 01:42
you have to help it along or it gets tangled up in its boxers
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Xliff Yes. It's why I nuked. 01:43
JIC.
BRB
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Xliff Ahh. New version of HC 01:47
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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herby_ Xliff: o/ 01:57
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herby_ spontaneous poll: what does everyone use for your development environment? 02:56
I'm bouncing between vscode and vim
lookatme I am using QtCreator/vscode/atom/emacs :) 02:57
herby_ hmmm. I've never heard of QtCreator
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lookatme it's for c/c++ 02:58
herby_ ahh, that could be why then :)
lookatme also, it's for QT
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MasterDuke vim 03:04
herby_ for p6 development, what are your big vim plugins? 03:05
right now i just have the vim-perl6 one
MasterDuke pretty much the only other one i actually use lets you put a colon and line number after the filename and vim will open the file directly to that line 03:07
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MasterDuke e.g., `vim src/core/Str.pm6:123` 03:07
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MasterDuke which is useful for copy/pasting from backtraces and greps 03:08
herby_ hmmm. what's that plugin name?
MasterDuke it's just file_line.vim in my ~/.vim/plugins 03:09
SmokeMachine jnthn: hi, I just wrote an "extension" (github.com/FCO/test-time) to your Test::Scheduler and I'd like to know if you have any plan to make anything like what I did natively on Test::Scheduler. 03:10
MasterDuke: Why do you use that? I'd use something like `vim src/core/Str.pm6 +123` 03:11
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herby_ i learn something new every day :) 03:13
MasterDuke it makes it really easy to just double click to highlight a grep/backtrace result, middle click to past, and enter to open
without having to go and change the ':' to ' +'
SmokeMachine MasterDuke: yes... that makes sense... 03:14
MasterDuke github.com/bogado/file-line 03:18
SmokeMachine .tell jnthn hi, I just wrote a small "extension" (github.com/FCO/test-time) to your Test::Scheduler and I'd like to know: are planning to make anything like that natively on Test::Scheduler? 03:20
yoleaux SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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Geth perl6.org: 7a5203362a | CC++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | README.md
Multilingual translation
 03:56
perl6.org: 928a36dfdd | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | README.md
Merge pull request #105 from ccworld1000/patch-4

Multilingual translation
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moritz mr_ron: Perl 5's (?>....) corresponds to Perl 6's backtrack suppression, not (*PRUNE) 05:07
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AlexDaniel looks at RedMonk *Programming Language* rankings 05:47
AlexDaniel sees “KiCad”
jmerelo AlexDaniel: probably not Turing-complete :-) 05:48
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Geth doc/master: 4 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++ 05:52
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Zoffix Thinking of doing an event quarterly: "Rakudo Star Unboxing". Timed right after Rakudo Star releases but people can organize on their own whenever they want (e.g. Mongers meetings). The goal: get another human to install and "try out" Perl 6 (part of the event could include some theme for the programs to write or whatever). The underlying goal: shake out all the issues newcomers to the language experience: 06:01
e.g. trouble finding what to install; trouble installing ( github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/20 ); trouble finding appropriate resources for learning/docs; and logging any negatives into github.com/perl6/user-experience/ ... Those who are not new to the language or don't have access to humans for the purpose of the event would be taking care of all the filed issues, as well as trying to
identify any possible issues without the help of a newbie-in-training; basically similar to a SQUASHathon
Geth doc: 8ab2d19c88 | (JJ Merelo)++ | CONTRIBUTING.md
Minor changes. Mainly reviews and closes #1909
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jmerelo Zoffix: probably a good idea. But we might have to test-drive it to see how many actual meetings are really organized and what are the results. 06:07
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Zoffix Well, there'd only be one digital one, same as how SQUASHathon is done. 06:11
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jmerelo Zoffix: you mentioned Mongers meetings, so I thought you were talking about F2F events. Same thing, anyway. Test-drive and evaluate. 06:13
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travis-ci Doc build failed. JJ Merelo 'Minor changes. Mainly reviews and closes #1909' 06:18
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/365959190 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/f4171...b2d19c8843
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AlexDaniel interesting idea 06:18
buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually.
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Zoffix On second thought, might be hard to gather enough newcomers during the event (and I don't want people spamming it in inappropriate places). Rather make a "Perl 6 Starter Kit" that lists installation instructions and pointers to key resources and stresses that all encountered issues should be reported on github.com/perl6/user-experience Then people can hand those out at events like whatever was 06:22
happening that caused github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/20 to be filed.
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Zoffix "But without timotimo's support I probably would have postponed Perl 6 for a (another) year or so..." 06:25
Fairly concerning, especially because the user is referencing our primary download page (e.g it isn't like they tried to build compiler-only from source and had problems).
El_Che yes 06:26
Zoffix Also, I've seen multiple times people saying they're waiting for LP6 to come out before trying P6. That's in a 2-4 months and I expect a user influx when it comes out. We should fix up all the thorns affecting the initial impressions. And also make stresstest pass on Windows ( S#320 ) [without fudging anything] 06:27
synopsebot S#320 [open]: github.com/perl6/roast/issues/320 Windows roast failures just before 2017.09 release
El_Che LP6?
donpdonp whats lp6
donpdonp high-fives El_Che 06:28
Zoffix "Learning Perl 6": www.learningperl6.com/
the book
donpdonp nods
El_Che maybe it'd be good to have an idea what he proposes for installation, so we don't change everything before it releases 06:29
Geth doc: c98d635b58 | (JJ Merelo)++ | CONTRIBUTING.md
Eliminates tab
El_Che low-fives donpdonp
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donpdonp laughs 06:29
Zoffix Let's see 06:30
El_Che I would love to get linux repos up before then 06:31
and maybe some repo's will have a decent rakudo version as well
Zoffix First thing mentioned is docker with rakudo star, and on Windows rakudo star via choco package manager 06:32
El_Che ubuntu 18.04 will have 2018.03
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donpdonp wow! 06:33
El_Che I though chocolatey was an appveyor thing, but it seems it's a package maanger 06:34
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Zoffix Glob.io mentioned for "try without installing" and that's about it. Installing perl6 is listed as Excercise 0.1 06:34
El_Che no brew for mac? weird 06:35
donpdonp it looks right now anyways that its 2015.12 packages.ubuntu.com/bionic/perl6 (bionic = 18.04)
Zoffix No mentions of brew
donpdonp oh the req is >=2015.12, and the rakudo package is 2018.03-1 06:36
thats fantastic.
18.04 will put perl6 on a lot of boxes. 06:37
Zoffix Oh, the prose after choco examples does mention rakudo.org: "You can also download source or binaries some from rakudo.org. That’s how I get my macOS packages."
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El_Che Zoffix: there was mention of brew in the old rakudo download pages. It it by far the easiest way to install and kee it updated 06:38
Zoffix El_Che: install what rakudo star or just rakudo? 06:39
El_Che: new page: perl6.org:4242/files/star/macos that's after clicking the "macOS" panel in the middle: perl6.org:4242/files 06:40
And also mentioned if the user goes to 3rd-party packages option: perl6.org:4242/files/star/third-party
El_Che that sucks 06:41
brew install rakudo-star
braw update
\o/
Zoffix "sucks"? What do you mean?
El_Che download a file, dubble click it, drag an icon to an other icon, repeat every x weeks/months 06:42
compared to installing star with brew install rakudo-star (and doing updates of all your brew packages with brew update) 06:43
Zoffix I meant the "Other variants: Rakudo Star is available from Homebrew. To install, run brew install rakudo-star" shown on that page
El_Che osx packaging admin is pure horror
Zoffix: I wonder if it should be the default as it's just rakudo-star. It's it ok depend on a third party package manager? stmuk_ are you a mainly osx user? stmuk_, any thought? 06:45
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El_Che Zoffix: news from pmichaud_ ? 06:46
Zoffix None since irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2018-04-11#i_16034438 06:47
El_Che good!
he's aware
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Zoffix BTW what happened to "Web Development with Perl 6" book or something along those lines? Based on Bailador. I thought it was meant to be come out in December or something. 06:51
December 2017
ufobat_ i have no clue
gabor is quiet for a while 06:52
but i just released Bailador 0.0.15 ;
isn't usually a bot anoucing new cpan uploads? 06:53
Zoffix buggable: uptime 06:54
buggable: help
buggable Zoffix, tags | tag SOMETAG | eco | eco Some search term | author github username | speed | testers CPANTesters report ID
Zoffix Yeah, it should
buggable New CPAN upload: Bailador-0.0.15.tar.gz by UFOBAT cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/U/UF/....15.tar.gz
ufobat_ lol! 06:55
Zoffix .ask moritz the perl6book.com site shows a chart with a couple of books and it's easy to miss the full book list at the bottom: i.imgur.com/bpIYyWR.png Site should be re-styled. If there's a repo, I can submit a PR.
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to moritz.
ufobat_ guilty conscience, buggable?
Zoffix eco: Bailador:from<cpan>:author<UFOBAT> 06:58
buggable Zoffix, Nothing found
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Zoffix eco: Bailador from<cpan> author<UFOBAT> 06:58
buggable Zoffix, Nothing found
Zoffix eco: Bailador from:cpan author:UFOBAT
buggable Zoffix, Bailador 'A light-weight route-based web application framework for Perl 6': www.cpan.org/authors/id/U/UF/UFOBAT....14.tar.gz
Zoffix hm
Can prolly use that to make the bot paste links to modules.perl6.org instead 06:59
ufobat_ thats still 0.0.14
moritz Zoffix: it's a repo, github.com/moritz/perl6book-web 07:00
yoleaux 06:55Z <Zoffix> moritz: the perl6book.com site shows a chart with a couple of books and it's easy to miss the full book list at the bottom: i.imgur.com/bpIYyWR.png Site should be re-styled. If there's a repo, I can submit a PR.
moritz Zoffix: and yes, better style is always appreciated :-) 07:01
Zoffix ok
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Geth modules.perl6.org: 00d0a6fd82 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Root.pm
[REAPP] Add URL to dist on the site in JSON api search results
 07:11
moritz Zoffix: I've invited you as a collaborator, in case that makes it easier for you in any way 07:14
Zoffix moritz: is the site updated from the repo automatically?
moritz Zoffix: I don't think so 07:15
Zoffix OK
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perlawhirl bug? 07:35
m: say (.minmax => (.min, .max)) for (0..10), (^10)
camelia (0 10) => (0 10)
(0 9) => (0 10)
perlawhirl ie, why is .max on ^10 == 10 07:36
Zoffix Nah, not a bug. .minmax gives largest/smallest elements of the range, while .min/.max are the endpoints you need to combine them with .excludes-min/.excludes-max endpoints to get the actual value that includes exclusion point 07:37
s:2nd/endpoints/attributes/; 07:38
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Zoffix uhh 07:38
m: dd ^10 .minmax 07:39
camelia (0, 9)
Zoffix m: dd ^10.1 .minmax
camelia Failure.new(exception => X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Cannot return minmax on Range with excluded ends"), backtrace => Backtrace.new)
Zoffix s: ^1, 'minmax', \()
SourceBaby Zoffix, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/08b9...e.pm6#L708 07:40
Zoffix Filed as R#1729 07:43
synopsebot R#1729 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1729 [LTA][consistency] Range.minmax inconsistency / LTA error
Zoffix m: dd (1, 2, 3).minmax; dd (1, 2, ^3).minmax; # dafuq :/ 07:44
camelia 1..3
^3
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Zoffix ah, it flattens it; nevermind 07:46
Tison m: dd (|^10).max 07:47
camelia 9
Tison m: dd (^10).max 07:48
camelia 10
Zoffix weekly: there's some effort to translate perl6.org to Chinese that could use more humans helping out: github.com/ccworld1000/perl6.org github.com/perl6/perl6.org/pull/10...-381053036 07:49
notable6 Zoffix, Noted!
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Tison m: dd (^10).^name; dd (0..10).^name; dd (|^10).^name; dd (0..9).max; 07:50
camelia "Range"
"Range"
"Slip"
9
Zoffix The (|^10).max version calls .max method on a List. The (^10).max version accesses the .max attribute on the Range.
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Tison m: dd (0..9) ~~ (^10); dd (^10) ~~ (0..9); 07:54
camelia Bool::True
Bool::False
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Tison Interesting, so (0..9) and (^10) both Range and they contain same data but not same thing 07:55
Zoffix s: (0..9), 'ACCEPTS', \(^10)
SourceBaby Zoffix, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/08b9...e.pm6#L438
Zoffix That sounds like a bug 07:56
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Tison cause by .max, looks like 07:57
lookatme m: say &infix:<<"~~">>;
camelia sub infix:<~~> (Mu \topic, Mu \matcher) { #`(Sub+{Precedence}|35612560) ... }
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Zoffix looks like just failing to check the opposite of `!topic.excludes-max && $!excludes-max` 08:02
m: use nqp; dd nqp::iseq_i(nqp::add_i(nqp::istrue(1), nqp::istrue(1)),1) 08:03
camelia 0
Zoffix m: use nqp; dd nqp::iseq_i(nqp::add_i(nqp::istrue(1), nqp::istrue(0)),1)
camelia 1
Zoffix m: use nqp; dd nqp::iseq_i(nqp::add_i(nqp::istrue(0), nqp::istrue(1)),1) 08:04
camelia 1
Zoffix prolly that would fix the bug
Zoffix is too sick to fix anything ATM -_-
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Zoffix Filed as R#1730 08:05
synopsebot R#1730 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1730 [LHF] Range.ACCEPTS fails to accept one of two equivalent Ranges
Tison github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/08b9...#L708-L714 08:07
So (0..^10).minmax returns (0, 10) because it returns ($!min, $!max) 08:08
where $!max = 10 and $!excludes-max = True
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Zoffix yeah 08:08
Tison I don't have an idea how we think of it, should [0, 10)'s max be 10?
s/how/what/ 08:09
Zoffix wait, no, it returns (0, 9)
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Tison oops 08:09
Zoffix because it returns computed minmax; whereas separate .min/.max calls return the values of attributes 08:10
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Tison yes, is-int be true so it returns int-bound 08:10
lizmat m: dd 9.9 ~~ 0.0..^10.0 # can also have non-int in ranges 08:11
camelia Bool::True
lookatme m: say (0..^10).minmax;
camelia (0 9)
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llfourn does anyone else get weird emails from an housing lender via RT? 08:46
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lizmat [email@hidden.address] ? 08:52
llfourn ^^^
llfourn lizmat: yeah :)
lizmat yeah, me2
I guess someone / thing got subscribed to it somehow? 08:53
at least the issue numbers are nicely predictable :-)
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llfourn haha yeah 08:54
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llfourn and at least they're fedeerally insured 08:54
oh cool a whole bunch more just came through
Zoffix .tell [Coke] FYI, there's this spammer on RT spamming all the ticket *replies*. I've no idea how to mark that as spam. Need to block the address somehow: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...xn-1546669 08:55
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to [Coke].
llfourn I think someone just subscribed their support ticket system to RT 08:56
or that's just the default response from [email@hidden.address] probs just need to remove that account. 08:57
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ufobat_ lizmat, i think you're maybe wrong about your comment on my ticket, because we're exiting this sub with True, not With False: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/08b9....pm6#L2972 09:01
Zoffix I have a fix for that bug, if anyone's interested... 09:03
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Zoffix ufobat_: BTW, we also accept tickets on GitHub: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/new 09:13
ufobat_ oh that's cool! :) 09:14
didnt know that, thanks
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ufobat_ Zoffix, if the require failes the installed package that should be replaced will never be deleted, is this a bug or could that cause any troubles? 09:41
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Zoffix ufobat_: "is this a bug" as far as I know, nope. "could that cause any troubles" dunno, maybe if you require tons and tons of packages 09:44
ufobat_ Zoffix, thanks for your fix :D 09:47
Zoffix No problem. 09:48
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Zoffix This is no longer a problem (samcv++): alerts.perl6.org/alert/7 10:15
(the build failure requiring nukage of 3rdparty/libatomic_ops)
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jkramer m: my Str $s; $s.?trim 11:49
yoleaux 12 Apr 2018 16:08Z <jmerelo> jkramer: to take a look at this and help however possible stackoverflow.com/questions/498007...3_49800790
camelia Invocant of method 'trim' must be an object instance of type 'Str', not a type object of type 'Str'. Did you forget a '.new'?
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jkramer Shouldn't this call .trim only of $s is defined? 11:50
So return Any or whatever?
timotimo i think that only calls a method if the method exists
m: my Str $s; $s.?lolwat
camelia ( no output )
timotimo m: my Str $s; $s.lolwat 11:51
camelia No such method 'lolwat' for invocant of type 'Str'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
ufobat_ and you cant find .? in the dokumentation because 404
docs.perl6.org/routine/.%3F 11:52
jkramer Ah right I remember. But is there a dot-op that calls the method only if the object is defined?
ufobat_ there is with 11:54
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ufobat_ m: my Str $s; .trim with $s 11:55
camelia ( no output )
ufobat_ m: my Str $s = " ab "; .trim with $s
camelia ( no output )
ufobat_ m: my Str $s = " ab "; say .trim with $s
camelia ab
ufobat_ m: my Str $s; say .trim with $s 11:56
camelia ( no output )
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jkramer m: my $x; my %h = :foo(123), :bar($x.trim with $x); dd %h 11:58
camelia Hash %h = {:bar(Empty), :foo(123)}
jkramer Sweet :) 11:59
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jkramer m: my $x; my Str %h = :foo(123), :bar($x.trim with $x); dd %h 11:59
camelia Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected Str but got Int (123)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jkramer m: my $x; my Str %h = :foo('lol'), :bar($x.trim with $x); dd %h
camelia Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected Str but got Slip (Empty)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jkramer Hmm
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jkramer m: class LOL { method lol(LOL:D: Str $s) { say "lol $s" } }; say LOL.?lol("test") 12:01
camelia Invocant of method 'lol' must be an object instance of type 'LOL', not a type object of type 'LOL'. Did you forget a '.new'?
in method lol at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
araraloren m: class W { }; say W.?xx("foo"); 12:02
camelia Nil
jkramer Couldn't one argue that since I specifically defined the lol method for defined objects, the method LOL:U.lol doesn't exist so .?lol should do nothing? 12:03
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araraloren I think they just check method name 12:03
jkramer Ah
araraloren if method named `lol` exists, then call it 12:04
jkramer Hmm
m: class LOL { method lol(Str $s) { say "lol $s" } }; say LOL.?lol('too', 'many', 'args')
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 4
in method lol at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jkramer Yeah seems so
araraloren hmm
ufobat_ jkramer, i'd say that the method exists! it is just that its signature doesnt match, which is not checked by .? 12:06
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scimon Yeah .? see's there is a matching method name and then passes it of to normal dispatch. Which then fails. 12:08
m: class LOL { multi method lol(LOL:D: Str $s) { say "lol $s" } }; say LOL.?lol("test")
camelia Cannot resolve caller lol(LOL: Str); none of these signatures match:
(LOL:D $: Str $s, *%_)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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jkramer Anyway, a method call op that checks of the object is defined first would be a nice addition :) 12:12
araraloren m: class W { }; say W.?xx.?yy 12:13
camelia Nil
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jkramer The docs of all the dot operators say "Technically, not a real operator; it's syntax special-cased in the compiler." - does this mean I can't defined my own postfix call operator in my code? 12:16
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jmerelo jkramer: probably not. You can use any other postfix, though 12:18
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araraloren Maybe you can handle it in Slang :) 12:19
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nine jkramer: I think it just means that '.' is not implemented in high level Perl 6 but it shouldn't keep you from defining your own call operator. Having the special case is probably needed for bootstrapping and maybe efficiency. 12:20
Because....how do you implement a call operator when you can't call anything :)
jkramer m: sub postfix:<./> ($object, $method) { $object.$method if defined $object }; my Str $s; $s./trim 12:21
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3od if defined $object }; my Str $s; $s./7⏏5trim
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
statement end
stateme…
jkramer No idea if this makes any sense o_O
I guess the method name would need to be a string or variable to make this work, not just a bareword 12:22
nine Also shouldn't that be an infix?
oh, that's certainly true
jkramer Yeah I thought so too, but in the docs all the .* ops are called postfix ops so not sure
nine Ah, they're dispatchers: method dispatch:<.?>(Mu \SELF: Str() $name, |c) is raw 12:24
jkramer Hmm so I'd have to patch Mu to make the operator work universally? 12:27
m: augment class Str { method dispatch:<./>(Str $name, |c) { self."$name"(|c) if self.defined }; say Str./trim 12:30
camelia MoarVM panic: Could not spawn thread: errorcode -11
jkramer huh
timotimo i don't think you can have the dispatch called unless you also register it in the grammar
jkramer Oh
So where can I officially propose a new operator for core? :) 12:31
timotimo i guess send an rfc ticket on rakudo's github repo? 12:32
jkramer Isn't rakudo just the implementation?
timotimo i suppose it was the most fitting candidate when we started the move away from RT 12:33
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jkramer Hmm I just assumed the language specification and changes to it would be discussed somewhere else 12:35
timotimo do we track these tickets in roast perhaps?
jkramer I'll just try rakudo and see where that goes :) 12:48
timotimo someone who knows better than me will probably notice and move it to the right place 12:49
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jkramer github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1732 13:03
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jkramer I kept it really short and abandoned the suggested ticket format because it really doesn't fit in the bug report template, hope that's ok. 13:04
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ufobat_ m: my $var = "B"; say "wow" if $var.fc eq fc("a"|"b"|"c") 13:10
camelia wow
jkramer I guess assigning labels works for core members only or am I missing something?
ufobat_ is this doing what i am expecting?
i am unsoure because of fc of a junction 13:11
unsure
jkramer m: say 'B'.fc eq fc('a' | 'b' | 'c') 13:13
camelia any(False, True, False)
jkramer Seems correct to me
ufobat_ but the documentation says fc(Str:D ---> Str:D) docs.perl6.org/type/Str#routine_fc 13:14
m: Junction ~~ Str 13:15
camelia ( no output )
ufobat_ m: say Junction ~~ Str
camelia False
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jkramer m: sub lol(Str $x) { "lol $x" }; say lol('foo' | 'bar' | 'baz') 13:16
camelia any(lol foo, lol bar, lol baz)
ufobat_ *shrug*
jkramer I think the sub isn't actually called with a junction but the junction magically calls the sub for each option 13:17
m: sub lol(Str $x, Int $y) { "$x $y" }; say lol('foo' | 'bar' | 'baz', 1 | 2 | 3) 13:18
camelia any(any(foo 1, foo 2, foo 3), any(bar 1, bar 2, bar 3), any(baz 1, baz 2, baz 3))
jkramer Interesting :)
[Coke] (quarterly unboxing) I'd be happy to use that as an excuse to get some Albany.pm meetings going again 13:21
yoleaux 08:55Z <Zoffix> [Coke]: FYI, there's this spammer on RT spamming all the ticket *replies*. I've no idea how to mark that as spam. Need to block the address somehow: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...xn-1546669
[Coke] (brew on mac) there's also macports
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[Coke] zoffix, I pinged the perlbug admins on that spam issue 13:24
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timotimo i can explain the way junction autothreading works 13:32
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timotimo jkramer, ufobat_, if the dispatch fails to find a matching candidate, but there's junctions involved, we call the junction fallback, which finds the appropriate junction object to thread and calls the function/method again once for each value in that junction, if there's multiple junctions in the argument list, it recurses 13:33
if you define a multi candidate that takes Mu rather than Any, you will receive the junction object itself in the call 13:34
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ufobat_ ty! 13:40
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jkramer Nice 13:47
timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast....nqp#L3336 - here you can see how rakudo reacts to a bind error, a few lines down (if the $bind_res is 2) it calls Junction.AUTOTHREAD 13:51
DrForr o/
timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...P.nqp#L650 - this is the implementation of the bind method, btw 13:55
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...P.nqp#L321 - this is where bind_one_param retruns $BIND_RESULT_JUNCTION, which should be the 2 from that comparison, if there's a junction involved that needs to be autothreaded 13:57
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herby_ o/ 13:59
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herby_ \o 14:02
DrForr If I had my /maarena macro around....
donpdonp now the Cuban Pete melody is stuck in my head (from Jim Carrey's The Mask) 14:03
herby_ catchy song :)
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DrForr Could be worse. Could be 'seasons in the sun' :) 14:16
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jkramer After thinking about the postfix call ops a little I'm curious about what would a use-case for .+ and .* be. I can't think of a situation where it would make sense to call all methods of a certain name. 14:22
Any ideas?
I mean even if that's what I wanted and there are multiple methods of the same name, since I can only give one set of arguments most likely all methods but one that matches the signature would fail 14:23
DrForr CLOS lets you create those method combiners, I might look there for inspiratio... 14:24
And you might be able to use that to your advantage. 14:25
My head isn't in that space right now otherwise I'd look for possible examples...
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Zoffix jkramer: don't know about usecases, but note the consistency we currently have between methodops and regex: `.` => "one thing"; `.?` => "maybe one thing"; `.+` => "one or more things"; `.*` => "zero or more things" 15:55
And the .// cuts into that (and IMO looks gross)
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Zoffix From S12:909 I gether these variants fall into the same niche as nextsame/callwith and the like 15:59
synopsebot Link: design.perl6.org/S12.html#909_I_ge...s_nextsame
Zoffix stupid robot
S12:909
synopsebot Link: design.perl6.org/S12.html#line_909
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jkramer Zoffix: .// indeed looks gross and ./ was really just randomly chosen when I tried to implement it myself. :) 16:05
Zoffix :)
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Zoffix hack is ded again... I was able to ssh but running any command just freezes 16:19
(well, I ran just one, htop)
moritz I'll reboot it 16:20
Zoffix Way ahead of you 16:21
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Zoffix .tell Util FWIW, there's irc.p6c.org for IRC users if you don't to be dropped any time hack hangs 16:22
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to Util.
AlexDaniel Zoffix: do you know why it hangs? Could it be bots making it run out of memory? 16:25
Zoffix Not much, last time I looked at the hypervisor there was plenty of memory still remaining, but I don't know if it's accurate or not
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Zoffix Also, if it is some app, it might be alerts.perl6.org. I think the frequent hangs started around the same time it got launched 16:26
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Geth doc: a9e3ebee83 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod6
remove duplicate word
 16:29
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/faq
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El_Che Zoffix: Task in /system.slice/p6lert-web.service killed as a result of limit of /system.slice/p6lert-web.service 16:42
Zoffix El_Che: no idea what that means. Is that the indicators that it *is* alerts.perl6.org that's causing trouble? 16:43
El_Che it's an indication it uses more resources than allowed
checking the details 16:44
it does not mean it's the cultpit
just that the system killed it
stmuk_ El_Che: I'm a linux user 95% and only use os x and windows to build star
El_Che Zoffix: memory: usage 1740800kB, limit 1740800kB 16:45
stmuk_ El_Che: I don't think the "official" os x should have non standard deps like brew
El_Che so it uses more ram than allowed
Zoffix almost 2gb :o yeah, it ain't meant to be that big 16:46
El_Che stmuk_: it the easiest option, but indeed, it would be weird
Zoffix Wonder if it's DBIish...
stmuk_ even although I'd probably use brew myself if I used os x :)
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El_Che Zoffix: the problem is that the max ram for the app is pretty close to the ram of the vm 16:48
it should be way lower 16:49
Zoffix El_Che: can you change it to be lower?
El_Che so the app would be killed, but the VM wouldn't be in trouble
stmuk_: we're in the same boat. I only use osx on the train 16:50
Zoffix: I am looking if it's set or if it's a failsafe default
Zoffix: it's set in the systemd service file for the webapp 16:51
MemoryLimit=1700M
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El_Che moritz: are you ok with me changing it? 16:51
jmerelo El_Che: cultpit. Interesting concept. 16:52
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moritz El_Che: what would you like to change it to? 16:53
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El_Che jmerelo: cul (representing Latin culpābilis guilty) + prit (representing Anglo-French prest ready), marking the prosecution as ready to prove the defendant's guilt. 16:54
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El_Che moritz: certainly lower, how low depends on what zoffix thinks his app needs 16:54
moritz El_Che: how much does it need after a fresh start?
El_Che Zoffix: if you're in Java ram territory, you have a leak :) 16:55
Zoffix: how much does it need after a fresh start?
Zoffix Uses 230MB 16:57
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Zoffix (with empty db) 16:58
Is there a way for it to *restart* it if it gets too high instead of just killing it?
AlexDaniel that's what systemd will do 16:59
El_Che not that I know of. Maybe a small monitor daemon that checks the usage and restarts it if needed
AlexDaniel: no, it killed it
oom
moritz does it have a Restart: always in the unit file?
AlexDaniel El_Che: add this then? github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob...ervice#L38
what moritz said
moritz s/': '/=/ 17:00
El_Che it soes
does
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AlexDaniel Zoffix: so maybe it's this same issue: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1686 17:01
shareable6: uptime
shareable6 AlexDaniel, 4 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes, and 21 seconds, 658.328125MiB maxrss. This is Rakudo version 2018.03-134-g20495f097 built on MoarVM version 2018.03-56-g85fc758ce implementing Perl 6.c.
El_Che train arrived 17:02
bbl
Zoffix AlexDaniel: well maybe, but in nearly the same up, I had huge memory leak over a year ago and I'm 80% sure it's DBIish 17:03
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AlexDaniel I wonder why I have this limit for *ables MemoryMax=1.5G 17:04
was it quotable that peaked that high when processing something…
Zoffix grr, looks like there's a problem with WWW module (or rather HTTP::UserAgent). After 992 `get`s dies with `Could not create socket: Too many open files`
What was the op to force gc?
m: use nqp; nqp::forcegc
camelia ===SORRY!===
No registered operation handler for 'forcegc'
dogbert17 a dash I think 17:05
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AlexDaniel m: use nqp; nqp::force_gc 17:05
camelia ( no output )
Zoffix thanks
dogbert17 AlexDaniel: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1733
AlexDaniel .tell timotimo github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/95...05a3412877
yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
Zoffix s/in nearly the same up/in nearly the same app/ 17:06
That .tell doesn't tell why you're pointing to that commit
AlexDaniel he made that commit 17:07
ah
crap
Zoffix heh
AlexDaniel .tell timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1733 17:08
thanks
yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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tony-o Crypt::Libcrypt has a PR to make it work on OSX 17:16
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Zoffix well, after about 10K-30K requests, alerts.perl6.org is up to 531MB :( 17:17
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AlexDaniel Zoffix: OK that's very good, can you reproduce that locally? 17:19
and if so, can you please try on 2018.03 ?
and see if it's any better
El_Che AlexDaniel: f memory usage cannot be contained under the limit, out-of-memory killer is invoked inside the unit. 17:20
what restart does is just restarting after the killing
not prevent the killing
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AlexDaniel so? 17:21
17:21 simpleseeker joined
AlexDaniel I mean, there's no other solution… 17:21
if it keeps doing that
El_Che if it important to let it down gracefullt, a process can monitor it and restart it before it hits the max 17:22
depends on the app
Zoffix AlexDaniel: yeah, it was local. 17:23
gonna check on 2018.03 later 17:24
|6h check alerts app on earlier kudos
ZofBot Zoffix, Will remind you on 2018-04-13T19:24:51.817467-04:00 about check alerts app on earlier kudos
Zoffix goes back to being deathly sick
AlexDaniel btw I'm asking about 2018.03 specifically because that's the only release I know of that didn't leak for whateverable
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Zoffix noted 17:25
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AlexDaniel maybe 2018.02 also didn't, but no guarantees from me 17:25
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AlexDaniel get well! 17:25
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lucasb re DCU spam: I think they are just subscribed to the perl6-compiler mailing list, and replying to the RT emails that arrive there. If anyone have admin powers over that mailing list, I think it would be easier to just unsubscribe them. 17:59
AlexDaniel how did they get subscribed in the first place? 18:01
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lucasb No idea :) 18:02
I may be wrong. The sender only replied to RT emails, but not to normal ones. So yeah, maybe it's RT-related, not mailing list issue 18:05
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FROGGS ahh, so it is not just me who gets these mails... 18:15
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buggable New CPAN upload: DBIx-NamedQueries-0.0.1.tar.gz by MZIESCHA cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/MZ/...0.1.tar.gz 18:24
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Herby__ hmm. "perl6 main.p6 --profile" seems to fail to generate a html file containing the profile, and it fails silently 21:49
"perl6 --profile main.p6" successfully generates the html file
is that silent failure expected?
jnthn It's not even a failure. Arguments after the script name are arguments to the script, so just show up in @*ARGS 21:51
yoleaux 9 Apr 2018 08:45Z <jmerelo> jnthn: if there's some posted slides of his talk act.yapc.eu/gpw2018/talk/7326
03:20Z <SmokeMachine> jnthn: hi, I just wrote a small "extension" (github.com/FCO/test-time) to your Test::Scheduler and I'd like to know: are planning to make anything like that natively on Test::Scheduler?
HaraldJoerg Isn't --profile "perl6 main.p6 --profile" just an argument to main.p6?
Herby__ the more i know :) 21:52
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Herby__ is there any guide to reading the generated profile? using HTTP::UserAgent, it's taking up to 6 seconds to request a simple webpage 21:53
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jnthn .tell SmokeMachine Well, the `sleep` part of it changes the semantics of `sleep` in a subtle but perhaps troublesome way once the code runs under 6.d. The time-wrapping bits overall OK, though I'd not planned them so far. 21:58
yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.
jnthn Herby__: The first thing I'd do is `time curl ...that page...` to see if it's anything to do with Perl 6 at all 22:00
And then try another module if the reuslt is a lot different 22:01
The Routines tab is the one that will probably be most informative in the profile, since it shows which routines spend time 22:02
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Herby__ jnthn: thanks. I'm completely foreign to profiling and optimizing. just curious what the process looks like 22:05
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Herby__ looking at the "Routines", it's telling me that 69% of the time in spent on "recv" at SETTING::src/core/IO/Socket.pm6:19 22:06
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jnthn Then that almost certainly means 69% of the time is spent on the remote server to actually send stuff 22:07
*on waiting for the
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Herby__ ah ok 22:08
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Herby__ are you able to tell me (at an extremely high level) what the column for "Interp / Spesh / JIT" means? 22:10
I'm assuming green=good?
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Herby__ or where i could go to read more on it? 22:12
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SmokeMachine jnthn: is there any suggestion of a better way to "simulate" the `sleep`? I'm wandering a better way but I can't find it... I think Ill publish that code as a module... (Im needing something like that to test another module...) 22:15
yoleaux 21:58Z <jnthn> SmokeMachine: Well, the `sleep` part of it changes the semantics of `sleep` in a subtle but perhaps troublesome way once the code runs under 6.d. The time-wrapping bits overall OK, though I'd not planned them so far.
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jnthn Herby__: Interp means it was executed using the slow-path interpreter. Spesh means the code was specialized but not compiled into machine code for some reason. JIT means it was optimized and compiled into machine code, which is the best. 22:16
SmokeMachine: I don't like the action-at-a-distance of wrapping; I'm far move inclined to do a `:&sleep = CORE::<&sleep>` for functional APIs for a `has &.sleep = CORE::<&sleep>` for OO ones, and then have the test case pass in its chosen sleep mock 22:18
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Herby__ jnthn: thanks for the explanation 22:19
Zoffix: o/
Zoffix .tell AlexDaniel yeah still leaks on 2018.03. Though starts differently, with 340MB in use (instead of 230MB), which then goes down for a bit. But after 70K requests it grew it 1.3GB 22:20
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
AlexDaniel .
yoleaux 22:20Z <Zoffix> AlexDaniel: yeah still leaks on 2018.03. Though starts differently, with 340MB in use (instead of 230MB), which then goes down for a bit. But after 70K requests it grew it 1.3GB
timotimo AlexDaniel: what does the spesh log look like for that?
yoleaux 17:05Z <AlexDaniel> timotimo: github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/95...05a3412877
17:08Z <AlexDaniel> timotimo: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1733
Zoffix I bet on DBIish
Herby__ Do any of the army of bots in this channel alert when there is a newly tagged perl6 question on stackoverflow? 22:21
timotimo nope
Herby__ is that something that you think would be worthwhile? I could try my hand at it. seems relatively low hanging fruit :) 22:22
but I don't want to clutter
timotimo one more bot wouldn't stand out :P
Herby__ would it be better to add on to the functionality of an existing one? 22:23
AlexDaniel Geth: source
Geth AlexDaniel, Source at github.com/perl6/geth To add repo, add an 'application/json' webhook on GitHub pointing it to hack.p6c.org:8888/?chan=#perl6 and choose 'Send me everything' for events to send | use `ver URL to commit` to fetch version bump changes
AlexDaniel ↑ look at that one maybe
Herby__ will do. 22:24
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Zoffix So turns out not even pmichaud controls the rakudo.org domain. It's entirely in petdance's hands... 22:25
AlexDaniel timotimo: no idea
SmokeMachine jnthn: I mean to not "changes the semantics of `sleep` in a subtle but perhaps troublesome way" 22:26
AlexDaniel :)
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timotimo i can't test stuff right now, could you? 22:26
AlexDaniel sure 22:28
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Zoffix .tell El_Che how did you figure p6lert-web service had its mem limit set near the VM limit? It's got 19GB of RAM and currently uses 1.8GB 22:37
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to El_Che.
Zoffix I reduced it to 1GB now, but now I doubt it'd help anything with the hack hangs
I guess I can pop open an htop session and wait for the next hang to happen... 22:38
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AlexDaniel timotimo: uh-huh, well github won't take a 23.7M gist :) What are we looking for exactly? 22:38
before that change went in the spesh log was much smaller, by the way 22:39
8M, not sure if that's related 22:40
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Herby__ herby_bot: testing zoffix's tutorial :) 22:50
herby_bot Herby__, TESTING ZOFFIX'S TUTORIAL :)
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Herby__ StackOverFlow_Qs: latest p6 question 23:53
StackOverFlow_Qs Herby__, [2018-04-13@09:56:54] Does pattern match in Perl 6 have guard clause?: stackoverflow.com/questions/49814220/
tyil neat 23:54
Herby__ thanks. first thing I've created in p6 that may be useful 23:55
Zoffix: your irc::client module and tutorial makes creating an irc bot extremely easy, even for a beginner
tyil bonus points for having a shortcut to inform people to ask their questions on SO and notifying on IRC when a new perl6 related SO question gets opened 23:56
Herby__ tyil: that is what I'm aiming for. to alert whenever a new "perl6" tagged question is opened on SO
tyil sounds cool
Herby__ I thought I read somewhere recently that there is 1 p6 question asked per day on SO, so I don't think the bot would generate too much noise 23:57
tyil yeah
we get more new CPAN uploads each day I think
if it gets too noisy people will kindly ask you to move it out 23:58
we could always drop it in its own #perl6- channel if we reach a point where it spams away actual conversation

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