»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
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cog rakudo.org does not answer to web request. Where can I download rakudo star ? 01:33
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lookatme cog, maybe you can install rakudo alone 01:41
there are some binary for Linux: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases 01:42
Util cog: hmmm. perl6.org is also a zombie. 01:43
cog thx lookatme 01:46
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cog It installed fine but the installer GUI in ubuntu 18.04 said the licence is proprietary 01:49
I usually install from the master branch but people where whining at the French Perl Workshop that Perl 6 was troublesome to install from distributions packages. 01:51
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Util Can anyone get to modules.perl6.org over http or https? Like rakudo.org and perl6.org proper, it accepts the socket connection, then hangs on the initial request (for me). 02:01
lookatme I can access perl6.org/ 02:03
oh, not able now
I can access it some minutes ago
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Zoffix can't ssh to the box. Gonna reboot it 02:20
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Zoffix fuggen virt-manager keeps hanging -_- 02:25
cog: it's back upo 02:27
Util Zoffix: perl6.org, modules.perl6.org, and rakudo.org all look good. Thanks! 02:28
lookatme cog, rakudo.org is available now :) 02:29
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jmerelo o/ 05:13
Current ranking of perl6/doc issue closers jj.github.io/TPF-Grant/illos/close...c-ranking/ 05:16
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nine .ask moritz I wonder what's so different about the German implementation of the GDPR which makes it impossible to host the IRC logs. I've spent the last couple of months with this regulation and don't really see a deal breaker there 06:48
yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to moritz.
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moritz nine: since I'm only familiar with the German implementation, I can't tell you the differences 06:53
yoleaux 06:48Z <nine> moritz: I wonder what's so different about the German implementation of the GDPR which makes it impossible to host the IRC logs. I've spent the last couple of months with this regulation and don't really see a deal breaker there
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nine Fair enough but what in German law prevents you from hosting the log? 06:54
moritz nine: if you don't see risks, you're welcome to run the software; I'll happily provide you the configuration files I used
nine: I need consent before I process or store PII 06:55
and I don't see an airtight way to obtain consent from the people in the channels that I log, much less from the people about whom they might share PII 06:56
sjn isn't IRC considered a public space?
moritz dunno; IANAL, which is why I'm not taking such risks 06:57
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nine The only maybe PII in the IRC logs are the nicknames which are pseudonyms. Anyway article 2 (2) c) explicitly excludes processing by a natural person for private purposes. The logs were not hosted by a company, were they? 07:00
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moritz nine: if I wrote something about the sexual preference of somebody else on IRC, that is most certainly PII 07:02
anyway, I'm not continuing this discussion; if you don't see risks, either host it yourself, or arrange a consultation with a lawyer that convinces me 07:03
I'll happily assist in setting up ilbot installations 07:04
nine I am considering both options :)
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moritz maybe team up with lizmat, seems she had similar ideas 07:08
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ufobat___ anyone intersted in my sexual preferences, just for the irc logs of course? ;-) 07:19
moritz ufobat___: ewww, get out! :) 07:23
ufobat___ :/ 07:24
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jmerelo The problem are not so much nicks as the association of nicks to IPs. Also the fact that someone is connected, or not, at a particular time. Just check the latest messages. We know that Schepeers has connected from 177.70.169.55 07:52
I can connect that to their service providers, and it wouldn't be too difficult to associate that to a person. 07:53
So we thank moritz for the service provider so far, and I understand perfectly his move. 07:54
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El_Che jmerelo: so, anonymising IP's is enough? moritz point was that he could not monitor when people type personal data (eg an adress in a message) 07:57
jast a nation-wide hardware store has adopted a new policy to no longer make speaker announcements about things like lost wallets, badly parked (or damaged) cars etc., due to potential PII
personally I think that's over the top, but it's definitely a topic that is getting a lot of attention
El_Che jast: that's crazy. it's about holding date 07:58
it's ok if they don't keep in in a db
for ever en ever and spam the ppot guy with ads about wallets
jast it's not just about holding it, it's also about "processing" it
I don't know whether making an announcement is a type of processing, but evidently they've decided to go maximum paranoia 07:59
El_Che they are intellectually lazy
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jast no, I think it's excess caution, of the "there's a non-zero probability we might get sued for billions" variety 08:00
jmerelo El_Che: I think so. But as long as personal data is stored, GDPR says the person can ask for it to be removed and searched. That's a burden that he can't possibly take.
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jast anyway, my favourite fallout of GDPR is sites that have started displaying a huge "click here to accept your tracking and ads" before you see their content 08:02
El_Che jmerelo: does a nick count as a name
?
jmerelo El_Che: if it can be associated to a name or an IP, it might. 08:03
El_Che that's not the same level
what's coutns as personal information is name, sex, age, religion, politics, etc 08:04
jmerelo El_Che: no, rather things like IP, address, any VAT numbers, things like that. 08:05
And I guess the point is if you get to the coordinates, you can easily get to the other things
El_Che yes, IP is personal 08:06
correlation isn't
it's still protected
but not on the same level
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Geth doc: 8e38ef4dea | (JJ Merelo)++ | html/.htaccess
Changes encoding
 08:32
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jmerelo I've git-blamed every single file in the Perl 6 documentation repository. Here's the ranking of authors by number of lines currently visible www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSo...1mnOj2uF0C 08:52
And the winner is...
... wait for it ...
... moritz
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lizmat clickbaits p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/06/04/...ed-closed/ 08:57
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moritz jmerelo: I did start the repo back then :) 09:04
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jmerelo moritz: still. Lots of lines. Like 3 books or more :-). Thanks for so much work. 09:07
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Geth doc: 5f7646f2f6 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Normalizes output, closes #2091
 09:38
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
stmuk we could use blockchain for IRC logs! :) 09:40
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Geth doc: da5138ad75 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Adds rakudo-specific example

Closes #1056. Also reflows and reformats examples.		 10:08
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n1ge it's a bit of a bummer about the irclog being lost - I understand though about the GDPR question 11:56
hmm - I wonder if you could get consent - even then you would need to provide a way for a user to delete their records 11:57
tadzik I think the problem is retroactively getting consent from people who you know only by IRC nicknames 11:58
DrEeevil "by joining this channel you agree" ;) 11:59
tadzik from now on, perhaps ;) 12:00
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tadzik not quite explicit enough for GDPR though 12:00
nige the logging service could manage the consents I suppose going into the future 12:02
there would need to be some sort of authentication combined with the nick
a new incoming channel user could get a private message with an invitation to log their contribution 12:04
you would have to sync the nicks in the irc channel and those used by the loggin service 12:05
as there is no guaranteed one to one relationship there between irc nick and web log - this could make is a non-starter I suppose 12:06
if someone did come in and started using your nick (and leaving log messages) - then the originating nick owner would be able to purge the log - so that could work 12:14
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nige yes - I think that could work - the bot asks first time nick users to opt in for logging by consent by private message 12:20
masak or you just have to shout I CONSENT TO BEING LOGGED on channel 12:21
huf what if a nonlogged person says something and a logged person quotes them
they'd get logged even though they didnt consent
masak the logged person would have to pay royalties 12:22
nige yes - that would be unfriendly I suppose
huf the bot would have to log everything secretly so it can compare new lines to old ones
to see if they're quotes :)
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masak reminds me of the xkcd-related channel where you got kicked by a bot if you said something that had been said before 12:23
tadzik "hello!"
masak /kick tadzik
;) 12:24
nige tricky problem :-) 12:25
tadzik masak: good luck I'm behind 7 proxies!
masak tadzik: it's just a kick, it's not a kickban ;)
tadzik: "feel free to stop by and say 'hello!' anytime!" :P :P :P
tadzik masak: "stop by, for a moment" ;) 12:26
nige masak - the shout thing is quite good as it lets other members know the person is logging
hmm - what about bots though - do we ask them for consent? ;-) 12:27
masak tadzik: "putting the 'relay' back in IRC" :D
tadzik robot rights are still being neglected
masak in #perl6's defense, though, this is the most bot-friendly place I know
tadzik we like to talk about how important accesibility, and at the same time we're actively hostile to some of the less fortunate beings 12:28
"prove that you're a human" -- seriouslY!?
masak "we're nice because Matz^WLarry is nice. the bots are nice because we're nice"
nige as we're currently log free we can say whatever we like about the bots - and the drones won't get dispatched ;-)
masak including botist slurs
nige peace bots 12:29
masak releasable6: you're a tin can
releasable6 masak, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Releasable
masak taps dalek rudely on the shell 12:30
yoleaux: tell yourself that you're not eligible for the Turing test
masak remembers that according to H2G2, the most passive-aggressive thing you could do to a digital being was to count, slowly 12:31
tadzik . o O ( you know that I am called the count... ) 12:33
masak tadzik: I love how there's (apparently) hordes of people who watched the Count when they were young, and then just one day in adulthood, out of a clear blue sky, got the pun :D 12:34
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tadzik masak: for me it's one of those things where I watched a parody before being aware that the original thing exists :P I have that with a lot of songs by coverbands too 12:39
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Wd-Q3F8KM call me childish but I think it's hilarious :P 12:40
masak yes, I know about that one :P
it only goes to show how censoring can make [REDACTED] so much more [REDACTED] 12:41
speaking of which, if you're on a plane to Saudi Arabia and get to pick a movie, do not pick "Kingsman". it makes much less sense when it's cut that much. 12:42
tadzik oh? What was offensive about that film?
(...drinking?)
masak mostly some sexual jokes, I think
tadzik ah
AlexDaniel nige: log free? huh? colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...06-05#l269 12:46
:)
masak "colabti? now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time" 12:47
n1ge OMG - the bots heard us - quick close the shutters I hear the drones coming :)
masak are you still there? 12:48
masak nope.
I got eaten by the bots. I'm now just three bots in a trenchcoat.
n1ge they replaced masak with the masakbot ..... noooooo
AlexDaniel yeeeees, why not
masak to be honest this feels much better
tadzik *that's* a name I haven't heard in a long time
AlexDaniel quotable6: masakbot 12:53
quotable6 AlexDaniel, OK, working on it! This may take up to three minutes (4582161 messages to process)
AlexDaniel yes. sue me
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quotable6 AlexDaniel, 153 messages (2009-05-05⌁2015-10-23): gist.github.com/16661eff63b66dd84d...6c17996853 12:53
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AlexDaniel actually I was updating quotable's cache once every few weeks 12:55
so it probably doesn't have a bunch of messages from the last two weeks at least
and obviously won't get any new ones
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Ven`` moritz: would it be possible to get an archive of #6macros logs? For personal use. 13:01
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jonathon Hi! I've been using "install-dist.pl" to install zef 0.3.1 into /usr/share/perl6/vendor, but with 0.4.3 this no longer works as expected, and, when run, zef complains about a "Missing or wrong version of dependency". Running `perl6 -Ilib zef` works fine however. Is there a "new" way to perform system-wide module installation? 13:37
yoleaux 15 Dec 2017 16:44Z <Zoffix> jonathon: doesn't seem like any good hints for reasons in your build failure. Do you have enough memory to build? You need about 1.3GB of RAM/swap for rakudo (though I think those failures manifest differently). We already have pre-built Ubuntu packages. You could just use them: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases
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jonathon /usr/lib/perl6/vendor, even 13:47
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lucasb "If there was an IRC conversation that can give some background or useful information, you can link to it by visiting irclog.perlgeek.de and linking the link provided by the timestamps on the left side of the page." 14:03
-- CONTRIBUTING.md
jonathon was that directed at me? 14:04
lucasb jonathon: no, sorry
jonathon no worries :)
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AlexDaniel lucasb: we can wait a bit before changing that :) 14:06
there is hope
lucasb I think the community took for granted this beloved service (thanks moritz++) 14:07
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lucasb "for background", "for further discussion", "for the rationale", please see irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6(-dev)/... 14:10
^^ lots of things like these spread around in RT tickets, issues, commit messages, code comments
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Zoffix jonathon: you can install zef with zef itself, by cloning the repo (or otherwise downloading its code): github.com/ugexe/zef#manual 14:23
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Zoffix There's a ton of references to IRC logs in commit messages. 14:24
And this dude who claims to be a GDPR consultant, says "archiving purposes in public interest" are explicitly allowed: twitter.com/bozhobg/status/1003874140678512641 14:26
lucasb hm, interesting. I hope he is right. 14:29
stmuk I don't think anyone really understands what GDPR means yet and FDPA seems worse 14:31
AlexDaniel “archiving purposes in the public interest” is what colabti author mentioned when we talked about GDPR 14:33
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stmuk www.parliament.uk/business/publica...03/111381/ 14:39
jonathon Zoffix, thanks. I'll keep playing with install-dist.pl, I suspect something has recently changed which could be in zef or in rakudo 2018.05 14:40
stmuk that talks of "museums, galleries, archives and libraries." and says "it is not defined in the GDPR"
jonathon: it might be worth talking to nine about install-dist.pl 14:41
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jonathon it might be related to github.com/ugexe/zef/issues/254 14:43
stmuk, ah, will do
robertle jonathon: I would be very interested in your findings as well. I am currently playing with install-dist.pl to install perl6 packages in debian. would be great to know of possible problems. it's interesting that intalling zef doesn't work, isn't zef "just" more perl6 code? do you understand why it does not work? 14:47
stmuk I'm fairly certain install-dist.pl *used* to install zef since I did consider using it to install zef in star 14:49
jonathon robertle, install-dist.pl has worked well up until now for every p6 module thrown at it (see e.g. all the perl6 modules on aur.archlinux.org)
i'll try older zef versions, then try with rakudo 2018.04
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melezhik Hi! How do I reference to module name inside module? 14:54
unit module Foo; __module__? 14:55
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lucasb m: module Foo { say ::?MODULE } 15:00
camelia (Foo)
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melezhik thanks, lucasb: 15:13
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melezhik how do I interpolate ::?module into string ? 15:17
ilmari m: module Foo { say "this is {::?MODULE}" } 15:19
camelia Use of uninitialized value of type Foo in string context.
Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
this is
in block at <tmp> line 1
melezhik m: module Foo { say "aaa" ~ ::?MODULE }
camelia Use of uninitialized value of type Foo in string context.
Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
aaa
in block at <tmp> line 1
ilmari m: module Foo { say "this is {::?MODULE.^name}" } 15:20
camelia this is Foo
melezhik ok
ilmari you can interpolate arbitrary code in strings with { ... }
melezhik yeah
thanks
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jnthn $?MODULE.^name() should interpolate too :) 15:29
[Coke] sees that the perlmonks thread devolved exactly into what he expected.
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moritz at least no knee-jerk reactions to my answer so far 15:38
BenGoldberg Your poor knees, why are you jerking them? 15:47
[Coke] moritz: I don't see your answer on 1215822 15:50
ah, I was too far in already 15:51
(perlmonks UI)--
the nature of the thread looks much nicer at a higher level. 15:52
raschipi Well, no wonder they try to hide as much as possible. 15:55
El_Che which pm thread? 15:58
I see nothing weird there
raschipi perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=1215821 15:59
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El_Che If I was a troll I would post that kind of stuff all the time :) 16:00
"but there are unfortunately quite a few monks around here who have very negative knee-jerk reactions to Perl 6. " 16:01
answer below that: chromatic
:)
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lizmat waves from Amsterdam 16:10
raschipi lizmat: my wife's biggest dream is to visit Amsterdam. 16:11
lizmat well, she's welcome :-) 16:12
El_Che since lizmat moved out it's not the same anymore, though :) 16:13
lizmat indeed. It's turned into an amusement park
Geth doc: 6dbb9d5af0 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Changes irc log URL
doc: 9d9e4ed2cf | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Range.pod6
Adds «in-range»

With a note indicating that it's only part of Rakudo. It's not listed in the methods, but in the introduction to the type. Also indexed. Closes #819.
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/glossary
Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Range
El_Che lizmat: Amsterdam or the new place where you live?
:)
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lizmat Amsterdam :-) 16:14
El_Che moritz: the thread is nice as perl6 people don't sound bigoted or crazy 16:15
very calm + and - 16:16
it's ironic how similar the negative discourse about Perl6 of some Perl 5 people mimics the negative discourse about Perl 5 16:17
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raschipi P6 is too perly for them. 16:18
Someone better call briandfoy, jmerelo will soon fix all the issues in the doc repo. 16:19
jmerelo raschipi: Can't help but imagine this www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ with that sentence as lyrics
raschipi "I'm so perly it hurts...." 16:20
jmerelo raschipi: :-) someone will move a letter in htmlify.p6 and it will generate 75+ issues.
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jmerelo But if anyone wants to help, I've slapped the "help wanted" tag on this issue github.com/perl6/doc/issues/516 16:24
raschipi I think Perl 6 should be split from perlmonks so that they eat all the newbs and the language choice becomes very clear for them. 16:28
Bonus: fix the UI
El_Che raschipi: doesn't the perl6 tag on SO do that already?
raschipi Yes, but I'm talking about changing the rules there so that newbs are sent to SO instead. 16:29
stmuk ha! I've just done a not very exotic debian install and its added *three* versions of python 16:30
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raschipi stmuk: which application? It's not very difficult to imagine one with three Perl versions either... 16:31
El_Che does debian package 3 pythons? 16:32
stmuk ah I misread actually 2 16:33
El_Che that's more likely :) 16:34
raschipi another one in virtualenv and you're there.
geekosaur there are a few things packaged that still want python 2.6. but I don't think a default install includes any 16:35
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[Coke] ff/win 3 17:05
[Coke] feels like that should be worth an entry. :)
raschipi Its acidental after all. 17:10
TimToady jmerelo: noticed the math doc references BigInt, but Int is already big integers 17:18
jmerelo TimToady: hum. So BigInt is what? Any size integer?
TimToady m: say 2*200 17:19
camelia 400
TimToady m: say 2**200
camelia 1606938044258990275541962092341162602522202993782792835301376
TimToady m: say 2**2000
camelia 11481306952742545242328332011776819840223177020886952004776427368257662613923703138566594863165062699184459646389874627734471189608630553314259313561666531853912998914531228000068877914824004487142892699006348624478161546364638836394731702604046635397…
TimToady m: say BigInt
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared name:
BigInt used at line 1. Did you mean 'SIGINT'?
jmerelo TimToady: right... 17:21
TimToady m: say SIGINT ~~ Int 17:22
camelia True
TimToady :)
jmerelo TimToady: it's not yet implemented, right? OK, deleting that right now.
TimToady: Thanks for letting me know.
TimToady what would it be that Int isn't already?
m: say [*] 2..80 17:23
camelia 71569457046263802294811533723186532165584657342365752577109445058227039255480148842668944867280814080000000000000000000
TimToady m: say [*](2..80).WHAT
camelia (Int)
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TimToady m: say [*](2..100).chars 17:24
camelia 158
TimToady m: say [*](2..1000).chars
camelia 2568
rindolf hi all
yoleaux 31 May 2018 00:44Z <timotimo> rindolf: fwiw, the euler 287 program when slightly modified to be valid nqp code runs in 1:13.8, which is almost 45s faster than perl6 with only minor code differences
rindolf timotimo: here? 17:25
Geth doc: 2d3a128eb7 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Eliminates reference to non-existing BigInt and reflow
 17:26
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jmerelo TimToady: ↑↑↑↑ Thanks! 17:26
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raschipi huggable: deb 18:00
huggable raschipi, Alpine, CentOS, Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu Rakudo packages: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg#rakudo-pkg
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Geth doc: 239980a645 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | util/update-and-test.sh
Utility script; run 'make xtest' only on changed files.

does a git pull, determines which files have changed, and then ONLY runs make xtest against those files. Useful for testing other people's changes.		 20:31
[Coke] There, I've been doing that by hand for too long. 20:32
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AlexDaniel [Coke]++ 20:40
Geth doc: 9120db3cea | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | util/update-and-test.sh
Don't run full test when no changes made
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timotimo rindolf: i'm here for a moment, what can i do for you? 22:16
rindolf timotimo: did the p6 program take overa minute to run? 22:17
timotimo yes 22:18
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rindolf timotimo: ah 22:19
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TimToady So basically, someone else's right to be forgotten is gonna destroy my right to be remembered? I intentionally put a lot of quotables into those logs... 23:51
.oO(Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair...)
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AlexDaniel as far as I can see, no, it's just that we need someone who'd be willing to host the logs 23:55
also, someone's right to be forgotten only affects their data
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