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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
timotimo CUnion exists 00:01
SmokeMachine on `has $.bla = 1 + 1` where is it being stored the `1 + 1` to run on instantiation?
Kaiepi perfect
thanks
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Geth doc: 375b00243f | Coke++ | util/manage-page-order.p6
whitespace
 00:10
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timotimo SmokeMachine: it's a piece of code that's probably stashed away in the BUILDPLAN 00:25
SmokeMachine yes... at number 4, right?
timotimo: right? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/56c0...N.nqp#L101 00:26
timotimo i wouldn't call that "at number 4" 00:27
did you see the big comment before create_BUILDPLAN near the beginning of the file?
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SmokeMachine yes 00:31
m: class C { has $.a = 42 }.^attributes.head.build.say #it works! :)
camelia 42
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SmokeMachine m: multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $attr, :$bla!) { say $attr.build }; class C { has $.a is bla = 42 } #but it doesn't... the initialised wasn't parsed yet? 00:32
camelia (Mu)
timotimo the buildplan gets created at compose time 00:33
i think you can install a compose method on the attribute or something? 00:34
SmokeMachine m: multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $attr, :$bla!) { say $attr.^lookup("build").^name }; class C { has $.a is bla = 42 } 00:43
camelia ForeignCode
SmokeMachine m: multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $attr, :$bla!) { $attr.^lookup("build") does role :: { method CALL-ME(|) { 13 } } }; say class C { has $.a is bla = 42 }.new # :( 00:45
camelia C.new(a => 42)
SmokeMachine m: multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $attr, :$bla!) { $attr.^lookup("build") does role :: { method do { 13 } } }; say class C { has $.a is bla = 42 }.new # :( 00:47
camelia C.new(a => 42)
SmokeMachine m: multi trait_mod:<is>(Attribute $attr, :$bla!) { my \b = $attr.^lookup("build"); b.^attributes.first({ .name eq q"$!do"}).set_value: b, { 13 } }; say class C { has $.a is bla = 42 }.new # :( 00:49
camelia C.new(a => 42)
timotimo what are you trying to do, though? 00:52
it's quite possible that by the time you're changing something in the buildplan, it will have already been used to generate code
i.e. it wouldn't be interpreting the buildplan any more
SmokeMachine timotimo: Im trying to use the build and modify its return 00:54
s/use/get/g 00:55
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SmokeMachine timotimo: I think you are right 01:53
m: class C { has @.a = 42 }; C.^attributes.head does role { method build {13} }; say C.^attributes.head.build; say C.new
camelia 13
C.new(a => [42])
SmokeMachine maybe if I override the ClassHOW's create_BUILDPLAN 01:55
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SmokeMachine m: class C { has @.a = 42 }; say C.^BUILDPLAN 02:16
camelia ((0 (C) @!a a) (4 (C) @!a 42))
lookatme_q m: class C { has @.a = 42 }; dd C.^BUILDPLAN 02:27
camelia ((0, C, "\@!a", "a"), (4, C, "\@!a", 42))
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SmokeMachine m: class C { has @.a = 42 }; C.HOW does role :: { method BUILDPLAN(|) { (|callsame, (8, C, q"@!a", 13)) } }; say C.^BUILDPLAN; say C.new # :( 03:24
camelia ((0 (C) @!a a) (4 (C) @!a 42) (8 (C) @!a 13))
C.new(a => [42])
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SmokeMachine m: class C { has @.a = 42 }; C.HOW does role :: { method BUILDALLPLAN(|) { ((0, C, "\@!a", "a"), (4, C, "\@!a", 13)) } }; say C.^BUILDALLPLAN; say C.new # :( 03:50
camelia ((0 (C) @!a a) (4 (C) @!a 13))
C.new(a => [42])
lookatme_q SmokeMachine, you have to do that before the class compose
SmokeMachine m: class C { has @.a = 42; C.HOW does role :: { method BUILDALLPLAN(|) { ((0, C, "\@!a", "a"), (4, C, "\@!a", 13)) } } }; say C.^BUILDALLPLAN; say C.new # lookatme_q :( 03:52
camelia ((0 (C) @!a a) (4 (C) @!a 13))
C.new(a => [42])
SmokeMachine m: class C { has @.a = 42; C.HOW does role :: { method BUILDALLPLAN(|) { say "here"; ((0, C, "\@!a", "a"), (4, C, "\@!a", 13)) } } }; say C.new # that's not being used... 03:55
camelia C.new(a => [42])
lookatme_q yeah, it didn't call that method 03:56
SmokeMachine lookatme_q: I was trying to use something lithe this to "fix" this comment: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/97...me/e4avd91 03:58
lookatme_q: any idea to "fix" that? 04:00
lookatme_q SmokeMachine, I think you may have to consider inherit from Metamodel::ClassHOW 04:09
SmokeMachine lookatme_q: I do...
lookatme_q: github.com/FCO/Red/blob/master/lib.../Model.pm6 04:11
lookatme_q Don't have time currently :) 04:20
I will check it off work 04:21
SmokeMachine lookatme_q: ok, thanks 04:22
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ToddAndMargo How do I do this is perl 6? 05:30
$ echo "a-b-c" | perl -pe 's/-//g' abc
Figured it out: $ echo "a-b-c" | perl6 -pe 's:g/"-"//' abc 05:33
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Kaiepi how can i give a set size for a carray? 05:52
lookatme_q I think you can't get a size of the carray 05:53
Kaiepi fuck
does it matter if the array has a size, but the way it's used is irrelevant? 05:54
it's char [14], but it can be any length
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lookatme_q I don't know 05:55
Kaiepi i might be able to get away with dealing with it in c since i don't think the mbuf pointer passed to the icmp functions is ever changed 06:03
hopefully so 06:04
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ToddAndMargo Hi 06:16
lookatme_q o/
ToddAndMargo Is there a perl 6 (or perl 5) subsitute for the following sed command. It prints out liens 3 and 4: 06:17
ls -al /mnt/Rent-A-Nerd/ | sed -n 3,4p
My sed and grep broke for some reason and I have had to find subs (ack for grep). I have been using `awk 'FNR>=3 && FNR<=4'`, but gee wiz! 06:18
lookatme_q How about
ls -al | perl6 -ne '.say if 3 <= ++$ <= 4' 06:19
ToddAndMargo I will try!
lookatme_q evalable6: qx/ls sandbox/
evalable6
lookatme_q evalable6: qx{ls sandbox/*}
evalable6
lookatme_q evalable6: qx{ls -al sandbox/*} 06:20
evalable6
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lookatme_q evalable6: qx{ls -al ~} 06:20
evalable6
lookatme_q evalable6: say qx{ls -al ~}
evalable6 total 67292
drwxr-xr-x 17 bisectable bisectable 4096 Aug 5 04:01 .
drwxr-xr-x 11 root…
lookatme_q, Full output: gist.github.com/a6f0a7071cb56304b6...fab4b75614
lookatme_q evalable6: say qx{ls -al sandbox/*}
evalable6 -rw-r--r-- 1 bisectable bisectable 5546 Jun 15 11:07 sandbox/040-request.t
-rw-r--r-- …
lookatme_q, Full output: gist.github.com/125ba7d5db8d504503...33cb5852c6
lookatme_q evalable6: say qx{ls sandbox/*}
evalable6 sandbox/040-request.t
sandbox/0.806238500539699.lock
sandbox/answer
sandbox/basic.t
sandbo…
lookatme_q, Full output: gist.github.com/aed1b20fdd20d00e61...330087c79a
ToddAndMargo $ x=3; y=4; ls -al /tmp | perl6 -ne ".say if $x <= ++$ <= $y" 06:21
A thing of beauty! Thank you!
lookatme_q welcome
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lizmat weekly: opensource.com/article/18/8/garbag...ion-perl-6 06:31
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
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Kaiepi oh i'm an idiot i added Buf.allocate specifically for static sized carrays 07:32
er
CArray.allocate
i'm fairly sure it's documented too 07:34
dumb me
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Kaiepi are functions in header files used in c files for nativecall supposed to be defined? 09:34
i could've sworn they were 09:35
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ZzZombo Why does `sudo apt-get install rakudo` also pull in `libjs-angularjs libjs-bootstrap`, is this some sick joke or what? 09:36
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ZzZombo Also WTF, it doesn't include `zef`. 09:40
benjikun ZzZombo: You have to get rakudostar to have zef included currently, otherwise, you'll have to build/install them separate 09:44
Rakudo is just the compiler itself
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ZzZombo There is no `rakudostar` package. 09:46
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jnthn ZzZombo: I suspect those are because of the profiler UI (when I first worte it, I just used a CDN, but packagers seem to prefer to bundle it, which I can understand, and then of course they package all the things individually, so it's a dep :)) 09:47
yoleaux 06:31Z <brrt> jnthn: i'll have a look at the gist
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benjikun ZzZombo: You can build zef pretty quickly 09:49
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benjikun github.com/ugexe/zef 09:49
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ZzZombo Yeah, I did. Now I have to add it to path though, because why not leave it out, everybody likes to types paths out fully. 09:50
benjikun It has the instructions to add it to the path on the instructions under rakudo.org/files 09:52
A more one-install solution will come soon, there's an ongoing discussion revolving around that
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Kaiepi it looks like i was right 09:56
i'll make an issue about it
Luneburg Is there any way to check what if a variable is present in an array, and it's position? 09:57
yoleaux 16 Aug 2018 13:10Z <uzl> Luneburg: I don't know if you're using the printed version of TP6 but in the latest pdf, that error has been fixed. This is the book's repo: github.com/LaurentRosenfeld/thinkp...ster/book. You might want to file an issue if find more errors.
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Luneburg So like if there is an @array = [a z m pq d], and I want to find if pq is present, and if so the position of pq? 09:59
benjikun Luneburg: `.first`
lizmat Luneburg: @a.first( * == 42, :k )
benjikun m: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 10, 4, 5; say @a.first: * == 10, :p; 10:00
camelia 3 => 10
benjikun index is 3, value is 10
m: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 10, 4, 5; say @a.first: * == 10, :k;
camelia 3
benjikun `:k` for just the index
Luneburg benjikun: Thanks guys!
benjikun :)
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ZzZombo Really? "I ran into a problem while trying to set up Linenoise: Must specify something as a path: did you mean '.' for the current directory?". It is still not fixed? 10:02
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Kaiepi never mind about making an issue, send_icmp wasn't in the library file itself 11:10
benjikun I wish we had more users on at this time every day
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tbrowder_ o/ 11:48
benjikun howdy
tbrowder_ benjikun: where do you hang your hat? 11:49
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benjikun huh 11:59
tbrowder_ old slang for: where do you live? 12:01
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benjikun tbrowder_: North carolina, what about you? 12:04
tbrowder_ niceville, fl 12:05
benjikun ah, nice 12:06
tbrowder_ i’m working (slowly) on a perl6.club website where interested p6 people can post their names and locations so we can see locations to aid in planning p6 meetups, 12:08
benjikun I see, interesting
I doubt there is many if anyone else in North Carolina 12:09
tbrowder_ the map part will be similar to that on my website here: novco1968tbs.com
there are some p6 people in or near atlanta, and there is a linux meetup in nc annually where we could have a meetup 12:10
also some p6 people in texas 12:11
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tbrowder_ i would like to lobby for a perl conf in nw florida but not enough volunteers nearby 12:14
benjikun isn't the next perl conference in massachusetts 12:15
tbrowder_ would be nice if p6 could pick up some academic interest in the nc research triangle
benjikun or is it pennsylvania
tbrowder_ next perl conf is in pittsburg 12:16
benjikun ah
you gonna go up for that?
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mst we did have a conference in Asheville once 12:20
but that was some years ago
benjikun I wasn't aware of that
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benjikun while perl6 has been around? 12:20
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benjikun I was never really involved in the perl5 community 12:20
mst perl6 existed as a project back then, certainly
I forget how far along it was
benjikun ah
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mst I think that might've been before I got jnthn to talk to the Moose guys and he ended up coming up with MoarVM 12:21
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mst is mostly a perl5-er who plans to use Inline::Perl6 to get at grammars later ;) 12:24
tbrowder_ i plan to attend pittsburg 12:25
benjikun I will if I can
not sure how much I'd fit in at one of these 12:26
tbrowder_ trust me, i understand, but i have now attended 2 tpc:nas and p6 people are pretty welcoming for the most part 12:27
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sarna o/ 14:19
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tyil o/ 14:21
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tyil sarna: poke 14:40
benjikun howdy tyil and sarna 14:41
tyil hey benjikun :>
benjikun how's it hangin
tyil used to be better before I heard some talk was censored at the perl conf 14:42
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timotimo i wonder what that's about 14:44
tyil sarna: I've removed the first part of the blogpost I asked you to review 14:45
benjikun the heck
why would it be censored lol
tyil "on Wednesday a Lightning talk was given that use a series of tropes and stereotypes. Despite the fact that these were being used to as a mockery of how those stereotypes do not actually exist or apply. The talk was inappropriate and not the manner of talk that should have been given. We have taken the decision to remove the video and it will not be shown on the internet and the speaker has removed the talk
timotimo hearing something like that, my first reaction is "is this one of those cases where people yell 'censorship' when it doesn't apply at all"
tyil and its slides from any public access."
from act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-gl.../news/1568 14:46
timotimo: I cant verify whether it applies, since its only described in a vague way and all proof of the harmful talk have been removed from public sight
benjikun wonder what it was about
tyil I did not attend the lightning talks, so all I can see is that someone apparently was offended, and someone's effort was just completely purged from the world because of that 14:47
timotimo yeah, that makes it difficult to judge from the outside. but it could just as well have been a "hey, speaker, that was pretty much not cool", "oh i guess you're right, let's remove it before people get the wrong idea" situation
tyil the news post even says the stereotypes were used to prove they were incorrect
timotimo i.e. at most self-censorship, at best late insight
tyil so apparently there are some words that are simply censored in any context 14:48
timotimo that's quite a jump there
tyil thats how the news post words it
benjikun Could be over-protective, could be reasonable, hard to tell
tyil benjikun: censorship is never reasonable in my opinion
timotimo TPC is, after all, a public event that seeks to display and promote perl and culture and such to the world 14:49
benjikun I don't think so either, but it's an organization for a programming language
tyil all I can see is that some things are apparently not accepted in any condition, but we wont say which words are in that blacklist
benjikun they don't want themselves to look bad
timotimo i'd say this is less a censorship thing, more of a "this is not the right place for that" thing
benjikun They spelt "privilege" wrong in that post
tyil so now I have to censor myself because otherwise my efforts may just be removed from the face of the earth because someone was "offended"
timotimo um ... 14:50
you can still take your recording and slides and put them up everywhere on the .net
tyil benjikun: one of the things I always praised about the pelr community was their openness and receptiveness to other opinions
this goes directly against the things I love about this community
benjikun tyil: I'm on your side when it comes to censorship for SOME things.. but in this case, if it would put a negative image on the perl community, they have the right to censor it
I don't really know until I see what the content entailed 14:51
tyil yes, they have the right to do whatever
doesnt make it a good call, though
with great power comes great responsibility
and right now, it just seems like someone abusing a CoC to silence opinions/words they dont like
benjikun Whether or not it was over-sensitivity is impossible to tell sadly
tyil it always is when CoCs and the like are involved
the way they work is by spreading uncertainty and harshly censoring those who have different opinions 14:52
its a rule by fear of backlash
benjikun Wonder who presented it and if it's elsewhere 14:53
tyil if it exists somewher I'd love to see it so I (and others) can actually form their own opinion
instead of just being forced to accept the viewponts of others who apparently think they know best for everyone
benjikun Perhaps multiple people decided to not show it 14:54
tyil we'll never know, because specifics are never given in these situations
just vague explanations that could apply to almost everything
timotimo it doesn't sound at all like the presenter had a problem with removing the stuff
benjikun ^ True
Hard to tell though lol
There's nothing to deduce
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benjikun weekly: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/97...mple_page/ 14:55
notable6 benjikun, Noted!
timotimo the most important thing about whether humor is fine: is it punching up, or down? 14:56
tyil anyways, sarna: thanks for your feedback on my blogpost, but due to recent events I cant release the first part
timotimo the post makes it sound like there was mostly punching down involved
tyil (and it really does bother me)
benjikun timotimo: Or as if someone just interpreted it wrongly
who knows
tyil benjikun: oftentimes in these situations it's someone interpreting it wrongly on purpose, just so they can play the offended card to silence others 14:57
benjikun mdk is in here, he's the one who wrote the post 14:58
oh, nevermind
he must've left
tyil he's probably attending the current talk
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benjikun true 15:00
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sarna tyil: sorry I was afk 15:01
tyil np
benjikun Have you guys ever thought what a shell would be like that utilizes Perl6
with some added bits and bobs, of course
tyil not very good, I think
OO in shells is generally terribly ugly for the tasks a shell is used for 15:02
and perl 6 isnt particularly fast
timotimo benjikun: have you tried spitsh?
benjikun yeah, not fast or anything
but still
timotimo: I have not, what is it?
timotimo basically perl6 for shell scripting
there was a recorded talk about it, too
benjikun wow
haven't seen this before
tyil there was a good talk about zsh for perl people 15:03
benjikun a minimalized Perl6 could be interesting for a shell
if you exclude some of the huge bits
timotimo where the F was the talk
sarna tyil: about the feedback - no worries :) also, I'm kind of glad this talk was removed
tyil did you attend the lightning talk that was removed? 15:04
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benjikun Honestly, it'd be cool if we had a very minimalized Perl6 like perlito that wasn't just to java/javascript 15:04
timotimo www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGaQ397bTv4 15:05
p6weekly to the rescue
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benjikun It'd be even cooler if it was so minimal that it compiled to C... 15:05
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benjikun kinda like microperl 15:06
looks neat timotimo, thanks for the link 15:07
timotimo i'll go ahead and watch the "future of perl 5 and 6" talk from the beginning
sarna tyil: nvm I misunderstood :^) 15:08
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benjikun where's that timotimo? 15:09
timotimo youtu.be/Y3TH8dJhEwE?t=4h18m58s
benjikun ty
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tyil so, I spoke to mdk 15:22
apparently the vague wording was intentional
benjikun I see
tyil the speaker agreed to have his talk removed, because he did not want to offend anyone, and it is his job not to offend anyone
even if that's a practical impossibility
the underlying issue of the actual offense that people took will not be shared
so to me this feels like the victimisation ideology has won in the Perl community, just be offended for whatever reason and you'll get your way 15:23
xq what is this about removed talks 15:27
and offended people?
timotimo act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-gl.../news/1568
tyil ^
timotimo that's the news post in question
xq uhm, so why remove it still 15:28
public bug trackers exist for a reason
if someone has an issue with something, state it, state reasons, document it, document full resolution of it 15:29
that page is empty of meaning
timotimo i disagree about that 15:30
if the names of either the person giving the talk or the person who brought up the issue went public, i'd expect a not insignificant amount of abuse and vitriol to be hurled at those people
you know how social media is
tyil yes, and I don't want that behaviour to come in here 15:31
on social media the norm is now "if someone yells "IM OFFENDED", the world stop turning to cater to their wishes, no matter the repurcussions"
timotimo i think you only see one half of that 15:32
tyil yes, because the other half keep s getting censored
timotimo that's not what i mean
xq without public discours this is just between behind-the-scenes bullying and/or censorship 15:33
tyil offense is always taken, not given, people can be offended for any or no reason
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xq discourse* 15:33
tyil using "someone was offended" as the sole reason for any action is incredbily silly
xq: the speaker himself agreed to have his talk removed, but I can't say if he was forced into that position 15:34
timotimo you're fine assuming ill intent on behalf of the offended person from the get-go, right?
tyil well, there's no information given, so assumptions are all we have
xq tyil, yes see the bullying part
tyil which is why I ask for specifics
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tyil and ofcourse the staff has the power (and perhaps a right) not to share any details 15:35
but that comes at the cost of people being forced to assume things instead
timotimo i find it very strange that you'd claim silencing that speaker would be a "reward" or something
tyil and generally, when people try to hide information, its because there's something thats worth hiding
feeling like a victim is a great reward for many people these days
you get all sorts of special attention from it 15:36
timotimo oh
yeah, i bet the person who got offended now gets a few hundred followers on twitter from being mentioned by name in the news post
not.
jnthn Where does it say "someone was offended"? It says the talk was inappropriate.
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tyil sarcasm isn't going to make any side happy here either, timotimo 15:36
timotimo sorry, you're right about that 15:37
tyil jnthn: I talked to mdk and the presenter of the talk, who told me its because people came forward saying they were offended
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MitarashiDango[m Was it not that the CoC was called into question? 15:39
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xq "people came forward saying they were offended" 15:40
tyil the CoC was mentioned when I talked to the people in person, saying that offending people is not acceptable (which is indeed in the CoC)
xq ^ "file a formal complaint please" is the proper response
tyil a CoC using such terms is a terrible document in my opinion, though
vague terms allow abuse of such documents, and "offense" is taken, and incredibly objective 15:41
what I find offensive differs greatly from what others find offensive
there are people that are offended for me when I make a joke about my own autism 15:42
benjikun same
tyil to me, that's insane, to others, any joke about any condition is considered insane
it's practically impossible to promise a world where nobody is ever offended 15:43
and I don't think it's sane to try and make such a world either
timotimo goes to enjoy some food 15:44
tyil yeah, I best take a break as well to let my emotions cool a bit I think
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benjikun tyil: Are you watching the perl conference livestream? 15:57
heh
stmuk I found mdk's news post more offensive than the original talk 15:59
benjikun stmuk: What was the original talk like? 16:00
tyil benjikun: I'm physically attending 16:01
benjikun oh wait really
are you in the room rn?
watching the lightning talks?
tyil I just entered
caught the last half of the promotion of the Contributor Covenant
benjikun lolll
I see
tyil which, in my opinion, nobody who cares about healthy societies should ever consider
benjikun I agree 16:02
I knew you would have that opinion
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tyil :p 16:02
benjikun weird how I'm all the way across a huge ocean watching a livestream of a place where you are
tyil I'd also like to state that I do respect the speaker's effort to talk about things they care about 16:03
I don't have anything personal against the people who promote things like the Contributor's Covenent or any other CoC
benjikun same
I just don't agree with it
tyil I just disagree with the ideology and harmful environment they promote
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benjikun I wonder how much of the perl community uses perl6 16:04
sarna there was a survey
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benjikun yeah I made the question about if you used perl5 before perl6 for the p6 survey :P 16:05
are you talking about that or the perl5 survey that had a couple p6 questions
sarna ah right, but there's a question about perl6 in perl5 surveys
tyil sarna: I believe benjikun makes that p6 survey
sarna yeah
tyil: oopsie
tyil :p
(though I also contributed to it now!)
I added one option to a question and moved some options around 16:06
sarna benjikun: iirc less and less people use perl6, according to the perl5 survey?
benjikun www.perl.com/images/the-2018-perl-...image4.png
I found it
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benjikun ouch 16:06
yeah you're correct sarna 16:07
sarna benjikun: maybe these people migrated here and stopped participating in the perl5 surveys? 🤔
benjikun yeah, or it was just different people for some other reason 16:08
who knows
there's still a lot more avid perl5 users it seems
compared to p6
tyil that's to be expected 16:09
Perl 5 has a couple decades of legacy going for it
benjikun yeah, much older
sarna p5 is installed by default on most of the Linux distros, no?
benjikun yeah it is
this lightning talk speaker has hexchat open
I wonder if he's in here 16:10
tyil most if not all
benjikun: the ccdif guy?
benjikun tyil: yep
tyil that'd be tux
benjikun guess he's more of a perl5-er too
tyil I highlighted him, but I dont think the popup showed 16:11
he does Text::CSV
in both Perl 5 and Perl 6
benjikun ahh
I've used that before lol
tyil his module is used as the main way to see if perl 6 got faster :>
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benjikun are you hiring :P 16:12
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tyil no, but I am close to one of the people that raised their hand for it :p 16:12
benjikun lol 16:13
[Coke] I'm only looking at review here, not any announcement from the con about a particular video or talk, but it seems to me that they are not required to host any particular content at all. if the content is problematic, that is between them and the presenter. I would hope that tyil of all people would be aware at this point that some content is actually problematic, and while you're free to share it yourself, 16:16
no one else in the community is required to share it for you.
tyil [Coke]: surely, they have the right to publish (or not publish) whatever 16:17
doesnt mean I agree with their actions
I want the community to be the best it can be, and things like this go directly against that
[Coke] That said, having a clear CoC is always helpful.
tyil so I speak up about it
also, I strongly disagree on that
benjikun same 16:18
stmuk tyil++
[Coke] I do not think that an effort to police inappropriate behavior is bad for the community. exactly the opposite. 16:20
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tyil and what exactly is "inappopriate"? 16:20
also, will context be taken into consideration? 16:21
[Coke] For example: your previous behavior.
benjikun what is and isn't inappropriate is subjective
tyil which previous behaviour?
I have been here for about a year
stmuk I think some of Shadowcat are some of the worst offenders for toxic and destructive behaviour in the Perl Community
tyil is it just in the past 5 minutes? is it something I said last month?
stmuk if they are the Police we are lost
[Coke] (subjective) if the organizers of the con made a decision about content associated with their con, yes, it's up to them ultimately to make the decision, sure. 16:22
tyil saying "previous behaviour" is not very "clear"
[Coke]: as I said, I agree that they can do whatever, but if I feel it is harmful to a community I deeply care about, I will speak up
timotimo i was assuming that to refer to an incident with a specific word
benjikun It's their decision, yeah, but doesn't have to be the right one
tyil and I am (for now, at least) still allowed to talk
[Coke] tyil: sure. I disagree with you that it is harmful. 16:23
tyil that's fine 16:24
but you just called my behaviour harmful
and you have yet to say what was harmful
[Coke] yes, using racial epithets is harmful.
tyil "past behaviour" is incredibly vague, and one of my issues with this whole debacle is the vagueness 16:25
oh, so its not about this particular discussion
[Coke] I'm referring to the "n-word" incident. Apologies if that wasn't you.
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tyil that was not at all clear by the way you talked about it 16:25
and it's saddening to see you're holding a grudge towards something I publicly apologized for multiple times now
[Coke] Sorry, from my perspective, it's one of the few interactions I've had with you.
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[Coke] I am not holding a grudge. 16:25
tyil yet you still have to bring it up
[Coke] I was answering your question about what type of behavior with an example that I thought would stand out for you. 16:26
stmuk I think we should leave personal attacks out of this.
tyil I actually actively asked what people expected of me to fik the issue
[Coke] I think you fixed it, yes. Thank you.
tyil and apparently, nothing is good enough for you to forgive anyone for a past mistake, and you have to keep bringing it up to undermine anything that person ever says
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tyil if you have any comments on the topic I was discussing here, I'd gladly hear them 16:27
[Coke] That is explicitly not what I've said. I apologize for bringing up a painful topic, and will attempt to use a different example if this comes up again.
tyil if you're going to just personally attack me continuously for a past mistake, I don't think you're helping at all
[Coke] I am not personally attacking you, and I apologize if it feels that way. 16:28
Let me rephrase: it's not my intent to attack you.
tyil see the issue of using vague terminology to make hard rules for subjective feelings?
if there was a rule that its a bannable offense to attakc anyone personally, would this be one of those cases to ban you? 16:29
stmuk [Coke]: that's not the impression I'm getting here. You do seem to be attacking tyil
tyil I feel attacked, even though its not your intention
by the rules of the CoC applied to this conference, you are to be removed from the community
I strongly disagree that anyone should be removed for something like this, though
stmuk [Coke]: in particular implying racial abuse and that saying you aren't even sure about it seems strange. 16:30
tyil which is why I'm upset that a talk was removed from the archives over something similar
stmuk [Coke]: if you aren't sure why did you mention it?
tyil I dont think any speaker at the conference here was actively trying to "offend" anyone
[Coke] Obviously it is possible to offend without intent, as I've done. 16:31
tyil yes, because offense is taken 16:32
as such, its very subjective
as such, its a terrible measurement to take active action upon
[Coke] Have you reached out to the conference organizers about the issue?
benjikun The point tyil is trying to make is important in my opinion, too
tyil as such, any CoC that uses the term "offense" as a bannable action, is by definition, not a clear CoC
stmuk anyway maybe best moving into other topics, CoC discussions seem to lead to even worse arguments than licences
tyil [Coke]: yes, I have 16:33
[Coke] Excellent, thank you.
tyil they dont want to discuss any part of it, and they stand by their actions
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tyil I'm actually considering to draft an official complaint instead, to see if we can get some official changes going to prevent harmful ideology from hurting the community and future events 16:34
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stmuk releasable6: status 16:37
releasable6 stmuk, Next release in ≈1 day and ≈2 hours. 2 blockers. 212 out of 448 commits logged
stmuk, Details: gist.github.com/db159590bb80621152...cb61b166ca
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stmuk anyone tried windows recently? 16:40
to mention an offensive OS :)
benjikun why are ya asking?
I haven't used it in a while :P 16:41
stmuk I meant the rakudo port
benjikun ah
is something broken or something?
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stmuk it doesn't tend to get as much love as it should 16:42
linenoise doesn't work currently which seems to be a rakudo issue
benjikun yeah I think I saw an issue for that
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benjikun someone mentioned it not working on *nix recently in here, actually too 16:43
I don't know why it wasn't working for him
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benjikun colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...08-17#l290 16:47
here it was
stmuk benjikun: thanks, it doesn't mention which platform but that is the windows problem and I guess it's Windows 16:48
benjikun He was using debian, I think
he mentioned apt
stmuk ok I'll try it 16:49
although it looks like he is using an official debian package which is probably too old to be useful 16:51
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benjikun I heard it was up-to-date actually, now 16:52
stmuk sid has 2018.06.1 16:53
benjikun: do you know if he was using sid?
benjikun no idea, he didn't mention that
stmuk can't reproduce that problem with either a source build or using debian's 2018.06.1 package 17:03
I see the odd debian deps!
timotimo the javascript deps? 17:08
angular and bootstrap?
i seem to recall we asked some debian person about that once? i believe they are just "recommends", though, not "depends"
stmuk Depends: moarvm (>= 2018.06), moarvm (<< 2018.07), nqp (>= 2018.06), nqp (<< 2018.07), libc6 (>= 2.4), libffi6 (>= 3.0.4), libtommath1, libuv1 (>= 1.4.2), libpath-tiny-perl, libgraph-perl 17:14
Suggests: valgrind
timotimo huh, that is kinda weird 17:15
you mean the version numbers thing, right?
stmuk I'm surprised there is the runtime dep on perl5 modules, and where the libjs-angularjs libjs-bootstrap come from I don't know!
I meant more the deps 17:16
timotimo i don't see the js deps there? do you have a link?
stmuk gist.github.com/stmuk/31f5ddb40e7f...0f78515de9 17:18
timotimo well, angularjs and bootstrap are simple; nqp --profile will output an html file that uses angular and bootstrap.
stmuk ah
timotimo as jnthn explained, though perhaps not in this channel?, he used a cdn link in the html files, but debian would probably prefer not communicating to the outside for this 17:19
which i find very sensible
the perl5 dependencies also confuse me, though. at most there's Configure.pl, right? the example languages don't use perl5? do we have tools in nqp/ that use perl5 perhaps?!
i'm not entirely sure if maybe the moarvm exprjit compiler requires some of these perl5 things, but that's a compile-time dependency, not run-time 17:20
stmuk /usr/share/perl6/rakudo-helper.pl uses Graph.pm 17:23
timotimo what's that? 17:24
* postinst script and rakudo-helper to support upgrades
and module package precompilation and cleanup
is that it?
stmuk looks like something they added to "help with precomp"
timotimo wiki.debian.org/Perl6Policy - this has a little bit about that 17:26
benjikun timotimo & stmuk: jnthn commented on the js deps 17:27
colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...08-17#l250
they are used in the profiler UI
timotimo i just explained that a few lines back ;) ;) 17:29
benjikun oh, oops 17:30
sorry timotimo
didn't read those lol
timotimo no problem :)
robertle I could explain what debian is doing around rakudo-helper, basically it's the desire to manage and clean up pre-comp files 17:33
so if you install a module, and remove it later, it should not leave precomp files behind on the machine
there are two ways to do that: ship the precomp files in the package, or create and remove them on installation and package removal respectively 17:34
we ended up with the second option
the graph.pm stuff is so that we can tell which precomp files are for a given package, rather than for a dependency 17:35
stmuk makes sense .. thanks for the info 17:36
still puzzled to why ZZzombo saw a linenoise problem .. I think they must have installed zef and linenoise from source 17:38
and it works when I try it 17:39
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Geth ¦ doc: MorayJ self-assigned Inconsistent capitalization and use of period in the "Language" page github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2146 17:49
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pmurias tyil: not publishing videos that can only potentially cause a shitstorm doesn't seem like a super bad thing 18:52
I didn't like the leftist keynote last year but I'll just skip it next year 18:53
benjikun keynote? 18:54
Do you mean the one on CoC's
pmurias the empathy one 18:57
benjikun oh
I must've missed that one
pmurias it was in 2017
benjikun oh lol, then I definitely missed it
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benjikun hi stmuk_ 18:58
again
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masak does the spaceship operator <=> originate with Perl, or did Perl get it from some earlier language? 20:13
Ulti specifically the operator syntax or having a numeric compare operator infix? 20:19
timotimo well, i know about a "smaller, greater, equal than" operator from Le Maths 20:20
Ulti Icon had <-> but for xor swap of two variables
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mst thought so. 20:28
timotimo "per loo tut", eh? 20:31
mst in loo of what, though? 20:35
timotimo not quite sure, tbh
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[Coke] that took me a second. 20:37
mst moritz: bought grammar book just before leaving. read most of it on the train. bloody good introduction. need to finish the case studies then try and find a suitable yak to trial it on. 20:43
timotimo first i read "suitcase yak"
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Ulti www.masteringperl.org/2018/08/benc...i-numbers/ in P6 I thought this would be: (4 +< $n*(3+$n)) div ((4 +< 2*$n) - (2 +< $n) - 1) +& ((2 +< $n) - 1) 20:45
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Ulti but it doesnt work out, I assume either precedence is off, or I just failed totally 20:45
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Ulti runs faster than 1 minute to get the wrong answer though for what thats worth :3 20:47
mst timotimo: they don't fit in the suitcase easily until *after* you shave them 20:49
the hair tends to jam the lock
timotimo oh, i can imagine that's annoying
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tobs Ulti: you're right about the precendence 21:05
m: sub fib ($n) { (4 +< ($n*(3+$n))) div ((4 +< (2*$n)) - (2 +< $n) - 1) +& ((2 +< $n) - 1) } ; fib($_).say for ^10 21:06
camelia 0
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tobs (two pairs of parens added near +<) 21:06
m: 5 »*» (2..4) 21:14
camelia Potential difficulties:
Useless use of »*» in sink context
at <tmp>:1
------> 035 7⏏5»*» (2..4)
No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'Mu'. Did you mean any of these?
note
take

in block <unit> at <…
tobs that's not my usual scolding when I use the hyper infix 21:15
m: say (2..4) «*« 5
camelia Lists on either side of non-dwimmy hyperop of infix:<*> are not of the same length
left: 3 elements, right: 1 elements
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
tobs I get the direction of «» wrong consistently every time. Is there an mnemonic? 21:17
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tobs To me "«*« 5" looks like "push as many 5's into it as necessary" 21:18
timotimo to me it's more "»*» 5" is "power up the 5" 21:20
tobs Hm! The docs mention "the pointy part of « or » aimed at the shorter list". I get that. 21:28
oh dang. I hope nobody looked forward to opening R#2222 themselves 21:32
synopsebot R#2222 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2222 LTA error message with non-dwimmy hyper infix
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tbrowder_ .ask Altreus do you have a pod problem other than the declarator/attribute issue? 22:11
yoleaux tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to Altreus.
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tyil .tell pmurias anything can potentially cause a shitstorm, so by that definition nothing should ever be published under any circumstances 22:32
yoleaux tyil: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
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AlexDaniel tyil: s/potentially/likely/ :) 23:37
though I have no idea what everyone is talking about
Garland_g[m] I have a function pointer inside of a CStruct, and a method I want it to point to. is there any way to assign a Callable to it? 23:38
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AlexDaniel` m: class A { method foo { say 42 } }; my $x = A.new; my &x = $x.^lookup(‘foo’).assuming($x); x() 23:49
camelia 42
AlexDaniel` @Garland_g:matrix.org: not sure if this helps ↑
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timotimo i think they want something for NativeCall 23:53
so function pointer at the C level
AlexDaniel` mmm
timotimo is at like a quarter mental capacity right now and tied up with something else that he really wants to get done 23:54
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Garland_g[m] Yeah, I'm looking for NativeCall. I'm currently reading through the NativeCall source to see if I can find something that might help. 23:57
timotimo look at the test files inside rakudo's repository in the t folder 23:58
there's tests there for function pointers

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