pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: xrl.us/e98m | Auto-smoke: kungfuftr.com/pugs-smoke.html | win2k:r1344(187/3478) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1342(189/3478)
Set by Corion on 30 March 2005.
crysflame nods 00:00
kungfuftr nn all 00:34
Darren_Duncan Here's something for you Mac OS X users ... 01:13
The result of a short intro exchange I had with BareBones Software is that they will indeed be adding Perl 6 specific syntax coloring et al to BBEdit 8, in response to my feature request (fwd to the lists 2 days ago), though specific dates are unknown as yet 01:14
Also, aside from the legal paperwork, I have been accepted as a beta tester for that feature once its is ready 01:15
For those of you who don't know about it, this is the program: www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/index.shtml 01:17
crysflame bbedit rules 01:23
REALLY
Darren_Duncan++ # hot damn, you rule
Darren_Duncan crysflame, I also asked and ... 01:24
other people such as yourself, who use the program, can also apply to beta test this feature
that said, they don't want to maintain a huge beta pool, so prefer just the most qualified candidates 01:25
a wild guess of mine is that about a half-dozen of us who work A LOT with Perl 6 and know it inside and out is probably about the right maximum 01:26
chrysflame, are you on version 8, or an older version? 01:27
I mean crysflame
crysflame i do not use bbedit 01:31
but thank you for the offer
even if i were to beta test it i wouldn't use it much, and my perl6 experience is so slim as to be nearly nil
it would be a waste of their time to accept me as a beta tester right now :) maybe in a while 01:32
i submit ingy in my place
Darren_Duncan so was your praise of the program based on third party experience rather than yours?
crysflame no, i've used it before
Darren_Duncan what do you use now? 01:33
crysflame i use vim and textedit
textedit is super lightweight
Darren_Duncan I see
crysflame vim is heavy and effective
bbedit doesn't offer me anything that i don't already have satisfied elsewhere :|
Darren_Duncan I find that BBEdit has lots of features but is not bloated, and many features I use everyday that the likes of textedit don't have ... I also find command-line editors (eg vim) to be too difficult to use, even if they are powerful 01:34
it also keeps improving greatly with each version.
my last version was 6.5, from 3 years earlier ... big improvement since then 01:35
prior to that, I used the Lite 4.1 for years, which was free
now, Text Wrangler is free
since its free, its no sacrifice for you to try TW
I just like the look and feel of it too 01:37
more so than anything else
crysflame, you suggested Ingy as a candidate ... do you know for a fact that he uses Mac OS X? 01:39
q[acme] he's got an ibook and everything 01:41
crysflame yes
01:42 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
theorbtwo svn rm util/catalog_tests.pl ; svn mv util/catalog_tests.jmm.pl util/catalog_tests.pl OK with everyone and the right way to do it? 01:52
stevan theorbtwo: no 01:57
oh wait 01:58
yest that is right
sorry read it wrong
theorbtwo Whew, because I already did it.
stevan :)
I switched the rm and mv at first
theorbtwo Also, replaced a bunch of code. Still has more or less the same problems as before, but seems a lot cleaner to me. 01:59
Also, it works around it's own problems at least somewhat.
jabbot pugs - 1360 - ...in with the new (I hope I didn't mess 02:01
pugs - 1359 - Out with the old...
pugs - 1358 - catalog_tests: This code has around the
kcwu I expect "$x=-> $a { -> $b { $a+$b }};" should work as "$x=sub ($a) { sub ($b) { $a+$b }}", but pugs doesn't. Is pugs wrong? Or I am wrong? 02:32
theorbtwo Your expectations mesh with mine. 02:33
jabbot pugs - 1361 - Fix links. (Who tried to put syntatic q 02:41
autrijus hi lambdacamels! 02:56
it seems that there's another Pugs hackathon at June, a few weeks before yapc::na
featuring leo toetsch and yours truly!
theorbtwo A few weeks? 02:57
autrijus details tbd (austrian perl workshop)
theorbtwo Oh, OK then. 02:58
autrijus 9th 10th june
theorbtwo I'm going halfway out of my mind trying to schedule my summer vacation, but if this is in australia, I don't care.
Oh. Austria. Possibly I care.
autrijus :D
theorbtwo Oh: Good-morning.
autrijus Vienna.pm++
good morning :) 02:59
hcchien Vienna!!
theorbtwo thinks he's in the mood for a new and deeper project, so you've showed up just in time for me to quiz you about the parser... 03:00
autrijus woot 03:01
quiz away
kcwu: I think it's a bug (or likely a bug). write a test?
theorbtwo Is there a reason that identifier `sepBy1` (try $ string "::") is repeated all over the place, or should they be taken out and replaced with a common (monadic) function? 03:02
autrijus there's no reason
please refactor away
call it ruleQualifiedIdentifier
or something like that.
theorbtwo Does that belong in... ah, that was one of my next questions. Lexer or Parser? 03:03
autrijus your call. I don't terribly care.
theorbtwo OK.
Parser it is.
autrijus =)
stevan hey autrijus, good morning 03:09
kcwu How do I write tests if pugs runtime error? comment that line and write fail("msg") ? 03:12
stevan kcwu: does it work with eval ?
or does it fail with that as well
kcwu even with eval(), pugs terminate when encounter that line 03:13
stevan comment out the test and use fail 03:14
but there is a standard message ,.. it should be in t/README somewhere
fail("FIXME parsfail")
I think
and if it is a bug, use fail(), but if it is un-implemented feature, use todo_fail() 03:15
theorbtwo Hm, I'd really rather the actual code be present in the message issued, so it shows up in my HTML thingy.
stevan theorbtwo: good idea, can you ammend t/README to say that? 03:16
theorbtwo Hm, I probably shouldn't have broken the smoker while kungfuftr is asleep.
Oh, wait, he's not using the bit... I wonder why it's not running, then.
Oh, it is, but his clock is wrong.
stevan did he get it to watch the RSS feed? 03:17
or is it just a regular cron?
theorbtwo Last I heard, a cronjob running at 0 and 30 past the hour. 03:18
But the time in the title tag says 2:57:21 (GMT), but the r shown is up-to-date.
So I'm confused. 03:19
jabbot pugs - 1362 - add tests for nested "pointy" block 03:21
04:53 hoowa2 is now known as hoowa
theorbtwo Oh. Nevermind, the smoker's running, it's just doing it slowly. 04:56
jabbot pugs - 1363 - adding tests for hex(), ord(), chr() and 05:01
pugs - 1364 - adding tests for abs(), log(), rand(), s 05:31
pugs - 1365 - rand() may equal to 0 05:41
jdv79 stevan, still around? 06:00
06:36 castaway_ is now known as castaway
jabbot pugs - 1366 - mostly minor LKT and SRT test updates - 06:41
gaal to2, you there? 07:01
castaway was wondering that 07:04
kungfuftr moo 08:39
gaal se! 08:44
castaway Servus!
gaal continuation antler style }:) 08:45
castaway hey nm 08:57
nothingmuch morning
nothingmuch hates banks
Darren_Duncan morning 09:00
I made my first use of multi-methods today ... and tomorrow is my first use of hyper-operators
the SQL::Routine perl6ification is thereby proceeding further into the "what does perl 6 add" waters 09:01
jabbot pugs - 1368 - ArgParse.hs - moving from strings to an
pugs - 1367 - another SQL::Routine perl6ification incr
Juerd Someone port DBI please ;) 09:37
rgs ask Tim 09:38
jdv79 DBI on parrot or bust! ;) 09:43
castaway Juerd, DIY, methinks :)
Juerd What is DIV? 09:44
rgs DIY is Do It Yourself </purl> 09:45
Juerd Oh, Y, not V
This font really sucks.
jdv79 divs are an xhtml thing
Juerd Someone get me a useful small font that isn't too small. A direct truetype version of X's misc-fixed would work.
castaway: I'll port DBIx::Simple when DBI's there ;) 09:46
Though I really, really, do hope the default interface will be made sane.
jdv79 DBI and DBD::* is a lot of code isn't it?
castaway default interface?
Juerd castaway: DBI's interface without wrapper 09:47
jdv79: Loads.
castaway Juerd: hmm, works fine for me
Juerd castaway: It works, but it sucks. Somewhat like PHP.
jdv79 i don't think DBI is gonna change radically anytime soon
Juerd fetchrow_array doesn't return an array, it returns a list
castaway If you say so, I havent found it sucky 09:48
Juerd But fetchrow_arrayref isn't consistent, because it does return an arrayref, not a listref
(listrefs do not exist)
And why all the typing? Why fetchrow_arrayref if "array" implies the rest?
jdv79 in the docs he says that he's looking to fix those little things
Juerd Further, why are fetchall_arrayref and fetchall_hashref so terribly different?
etcetera, 09:49
s/,/./
castaway Because.
Juerd jdv79: I hope so. But I hope "fetchrow_", "selectall_" and "fetchall_" are seen as a problem that needs fixing
Otherwise it'll only be made consistent, while improvement can be found in much more.
jdv79 i don't see it as a problem 09:50
castaway goes back to prodding at oracle procedures
jdv79 the new p6 context stuff might be able to "fix" what you are talking about Juerd 09:51
is that what you mean?
Juerd No
The method names are stupid.
It can be made a little more intelligent 09:52
In essense, letting the thing know what you want makes sense
And having a lot of methods instead of one that does everything you want makes sense too
But saving on typing by having lots of methods, and then making the method names this long is a bit weird.
For that matter, it could just have been fetch(row => 'arrayref') 09:53
jdv79 how would you "fix" it?
and that's less typing how?
Juerd jdv79: Have a look at DBIx::Simple 09:57
That's one way 09:58
But I imagine Perl 6 has more idiomatic ways to solve this
jdv79 oh course you wrote it so you're biased no matter what:)
Juerd In particular, I imagine a 'fetch' method that uses the want object to know what's wanted
$result.fetch.as(Array) 09:59
my @foo = $result.fetch
my %foo = $result.fetch
jdv79 i think the more fine grained calling context can help
Juerd And then having fetchall makes sense again.
selectall and friends are a terrible mistake
Necessary only because without it, DBI's a pain in the arse. 10:00
(Lots and lots of typing)
jdv79: I made it because of exactly the same reason: I think DBI's interface sucks
Or, well, could be much better.
jdv79 did you tell Bunce about your ideas? 10:01
Juerd The dbh/sth idea works well, naturally, even though it'd be nice to skip the extra steps in between *by default*
jdv79: Not explicitly. I'm certain he knows about DBIx::Simple though.
castaway thats what selectall does, surely?
jdv79 how can you expect DBI to change if you don't tell the author about your grievances? 10:02
Juerd castaway: Yes, but specifying the return type in the dbh method is a serious breach of purity, and would require wrapping of each of the methods in order to be consistent.
castaway: A single method that says "prepare and execute this query and return the sth" fixes a lot.
jdv79 isn't that do() 10:03
Juerd That's the very first thing EVERY DBI wrapper does.
jdv79: No, that doesn't give you the sth
jdv79 it gives you one step further, the result, doesn't it?
Juerd jdv79: I don't *expect* it to change. Its author obviously thinks about this differently than I do, because otherwise why would the module be as it is? 10:04
castaway thinks the DBIx::FetchContext (or whatever its called) adds those
Juerd jdv79: No, it does not. do is useless for select queries.
jdv79 ContextualFetch and yeah, that one is cool
Juerd Another thing that's needed is statement caching
castaway Juerd, generally because thats what the author thought of at the time.. without suggestions, its hard to see the wood for the trees
Juerd So you don't have to prepare and cache manually
castaway: If they're smart, and of that I'm convinced, they look at all the existing DBI wrappers to see what they all do. 10:05
jdv79 totally, i would suggest you write this all down and send it to Bunce Juerd
Juerd Obviously, I think only DBIx::Simple got it right, but one thing they all do is provide a single prepare-and-execute method in one form or another.
castaway Juerd: who has time for such? (I certainly wouldnt have)
Juerd jdv79: I've written it all down once, but I can't find the PM node.
castaway plus ALL is a lot of them
rgs who is nothingmuch ? 10:06
castaway this is why its a community, people work together
rgs, how do you mean?
rgs Yuval Kogman, ok
castaway: I'm adding people to the P5 AUTHORS files.
I had only his email address
castaway ah, ok
ingy hola
autrijus Juerd: I use the Anonymous font. 10:07
Juerd perlmonks.org/?node_id=415809
autrijus it looks great on small size
Juerd There it is
Google-- # lost a hell of a lot of PM nodes!
jdv79 we don't need to see it - send it to the author of DBI!
Juerd autrijus: Thanks, I'll have a look soon
castaway google is not supposed to have PM nodes 10:08
Juerd It is
Super Search is no longer in the menu and Google is recommended
castaway as far as I understand it anyway
Juerd In fact, perlmonks.thepen.com exists for search engine (mostly Google) indexing.
castaway Funny, its in mine, and I've never seen such an announcement 10:09
Juerd Oh, it's back :)
castaway the stuff to sort out robots etc isnt add yet, afaik
Juerd I'm sure it was gone a while.
castaway Not that I ever noticed anyways
tomyan Juerd: have you read groups.google.com/groups?selm=20040...a-plan.com
Juerd Google very properly ignores the PM site, as requested by the site.
tomyan: Yes. 10:10
castaway right.
rgs hi nothingmuch
Juerd tomyan: TBH, I don't care much about the internals. They work very well for me, and I expect them to continue to work in a similar way. People working on this I'm sure are doing the right thing.
perlmonks.org/?node_id=415809 is the rant about DBI's interface, fyi 10:11
Unprepared so unstructured
jdv79 if its just interface then your module fixes "the problem" 10:12
i personally would like to see both the interface and the guts a little nicer
but it works fine for now:)
Juerd jdv79: Yes, the module does fix it. 10:13
jdv79: Otherwise I would not have written it
jdv79 ok Juerd
Juerd jdv79: However, as things are already going to be incompatible, it'd be great if DBI's own interface would be so that wrappers can mostly become an historical artifact.
And there can be DBI::Compat perhaps 10:14
jdv79 well, even if it does change i can almost guarantee it would mirror your module 10:15
won't rather
kungfuftr nothingmuch: mind if i make a few changes to the testgraph stuff? 10:19
Juerd jdv79: That's not necessary. 10:26
jdv79: Perl 6 has many neat features that allow for an even better interface.
jdv79: And when the interface itself is good, features can be added in subclasses/roles/mixins instead of wrappers, and everyone can benefit from them. 10:27
(They can now, but it's much harder)
jdv79 cool, tell Bunce cause I'm not gonna do it:) 10:28
Juerd Before I contact anyone designing DBI directly, I want to have a solid idea of what I think would be best. 10:29
And at this moment, I don't have that
Because I don't know how to tell a method what to return
This is something that Perl 6 should do, not the module itself. And the want object is how to read this informatio
(Or return value based dispatch, which isn't going to happen iirc)
%hash = RHS, @array = RHS are simple and clear 10:30
But what do you do in the case of foreach $result.fetch -> ... { ... }
It'd be neat if that worked such that for $result.fetch -> %hash { ... } and for $result.fetch -> @array { ... } dwym
(s/foreach/for/g)
And for $result.fetch -> $columnfoo, $columnbar { ... } 10:31
That'd also throw some renewed purpose into sigils.
Since they're kind of purposeless in current Perl 6 :)
They're just syntax with subtle differences, no longer necessary, as $aref can be used just as @array in almost every situation. 10:32
Odin- Some kind of mental assistence: "This is how I intend to use this"..?
Juerd I should probably dump this at p6l 10:33
But first I need to think about it some more
The smart .fetch is the only idea I currently have
And that neglects the prepare/execute thingies
Odin- is under the impression that Perl6 is getting to be frighteningly like some sort of "lisp with syntax"... 10:34
Juerd Let alone the func interface (Which I'd love to see gone completely - let drivers subclass DBI and add real methods)
Odin-: Correct impression.
Odin- :)
Juerd afk 10:35
Juerd is going to work (place, not verb)
nothingmuch kungfuftr: feel free 10:36
it's not my code
it's stevan's
but it's not really his, it's ours
btw, could you update your pugs-smoke.html to be more like mine? 10:37
that is, also generate docs?
autrijus right. we're jsut a bunch of crazy socioanarchists :)
autrijus finally recovered from mild food poisoning
Odin- autrijus: Isn't that the idea behind open source?
nothingmuch food poisoning? again?
autrijus Odin-: sure, as eben's paper had nicely put 10:38
nothingmuch: yeah. :-/
nothingmuch oi vey
Odin- autrijus: 'Anarchism triumphant', or?
autrijus yes, that. 10:39
Odin- Yeah. :p
autrijus one of classical readings :)
nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: sial.org/pbot/<channel>
pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "smoke report generating script" (38 lines, 1.1K) at sial.org/pbot/8792
autrijus nothingmuch++ 10:40
Odin- Hm. Yeah, although he's from the FSF, and thus a bit more ... shall we say ideological, than 'open source' folks... :/ 10:41
nothingmuch autrijus: eris sometimes goes to sleep, i'll make etherwake setuid, and make a global 'wake-eris' cmd
autrijus Odin-: sure, but it makes a good read nevertheles 10:42
Odin- autrijus: Indeed. (I myself belong more in that camp, I'm afraid. ;) 10:43
autrijus that's fine :) 10:44
nothingmuch: roger
nothingmuch oi vey: ld: truncated or malformed archive: /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/libHSbase.a at offset 1388334 (member extends past the end of the file, can't load from it) 10:45
kungfuftr nothingmuch: i would, however still can't work it out
nothingmuch what can't you work out? 10:46
testgraph.pl, or that shell snippet?
hmm... my squid is acting up 10:47
osfameron squid++ # battered, if it's not overcooked and rubbery 10:50
nothingmuch but sometimes it refuses to be greedy
in that case even I feel like cooking it 10:51
although i'm a vegeterian
nothingmuch asked it to save up to 10 GBV
du -sh /var/cache/squid/ 10:52
944M /var/cache/squid/
kungfuftr nothingmuch: getting the docs generated
nothingmuch policy is lru
perl catalog_tests.jmm.pl makes t_index out of t/Synopsis and t/
castaway smiles. 10:55
nothingmuch smiles back at castaway 11:17
disktool/diskutil 11:25
nothingmuch likes the fact that every app on OSX has some kind of esoteric, hidden, but very complete CLI
softwareupdate, installer
Kicker and configd
via scutil
nicl
especially in raw mode
xerox What does CLI mean? 11:26
nothingmuch command line interface
castaway nm, they do? so wheres the SEE one? :) 11:34
nothingmuch 'see' ;-)
castaway and anyway, wheres my test sEE? :)
wow, really?
nothingmuch yes
castaway whts it do?
nothingmuch you can open pipes or files in SEE
and it can wait, or be async
castaway is impressed
nothingmuch no, wait, i can't 11:35
nothingmuch has no subetha on eris yet
i can pull it off
i'm not logged in, so SEE can't really run
castaway umm.. eh? 11:37
nothingmuch i don't think you can publish/announce from the CLI yet, though
i have SSH access
but no windowserver session
castaway ah, I see
nothingmuch you can do most that stuff from 'osascript' though
castaway osascript?
nothingmuch OSX apps have what's called the open scripting architechture 11:38
castaway (we have a product/solution called "OSA" :)
nothingmuch which allows you to send events
typically scripted by applescript
castaway funky stuff
nothingmuch perl has Mac::Glue to take advantage of that
the app must be enabled though
wolverian is that like corba?
nothingmuch wolverian: much higher level
tell application "SubEthaEdit"
open "file/name" 11:39
announce file # or whatever, app specific
castaway sounds like COM/VBScript
nothingmuch raise window 0
end tell
i bet it's similar
wolverian that looks _very_ nice
if only linux had that kind of application consistency
(although I guess gnome will get there eventually.) 11:40
nothingmuch autrijus' subetha/kwiki hack uses applescript
search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Kwiki-...SubEtha.pm 11:41
don't view it in a browser, it's screwey
view source
castaway *g*
nothingmuch errm, wait not that 11:42
search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Kwiki-...hakwiki.pl
look at that 'tell menu stuff 11:43
that's really funky
oh, i forgot 'open'
it does URLs, or file based handling
open foo.txt -> your editor
kungfuftr nothingmuch: who own's the cataloging script?
nothingmuch kungfuftr: we do
;-)
theorbtwo wrote it's begining
kungfuftr nothingmuch: ah, k
nothingmuch i did most of the ugly stuff
svn blame 11:44
castaway pugs owns it ,)
kungfuftr yar, is it effecient? ie: doesn't try to update if test hasn't changed, etc?
nothingmuch kungfuftr: not yet
we could break it up 11:45
and then use make to handle that logic
s/long/longer/
the snippet i posted does that in parallel
it rarely takes it long than it takes GHC to skip everything
wolverian nothingmuch: gnome-open works similarly, it uses gnomevfs, so it can open documents I think even via gopher. 11:48
nothingmuch that's cool 11:49
nothingmuch hacked together mailtomutt
wolverian gnomevfs-mount is the coolest app of this week. 11:50
nothingmuch and there's also lbdb support for address book
wolverian mounts a website
nothingmuch so then i could do open 'mailto:blah'
and have a new terminal with mutt
and completion, and so on
but since then i've moved to a laptop
ooh
castaway theres too many camps in the "linux software" troup to get a general consensus on stuff like that, methinks, anyway
nothingmuch osx knows to mount ftp and DAV
castaway there'll always be X ways to do it
tomyan yeah, like kde has dcop 11:51
wolverian gnome can mount just about anything as well, but the mounts aren't integrated into the filesystem, AFAIK
nothingmuch thinks all of unix is too much legacy
the standard C libs, and posix in general could be rethought
wolverian that is, you can only use nautilus to browse the mounts, not the CLI
nothingmuch based on the current state of the linux kernel it could be made much nicer
nothingmuch doesn't want that to happen though 11:52
can't just uproot everything 11:53
kungfuftr bah, cataloging thing hates me
nothingmuch kungfuftr: it has many deps
and it needs a new Fille::Spec
there's a bug in an old one
that ships with recent perls (like 5.9.1)
abs2rel was broken somehow 11:54
kungfuftr nothingmuch: ack well, i'll just try it
wolverian nothingmuch: freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dvfs might be interesting. 12:01
sorry if you know about that already :) (it is relatively new)
nothingmuch i don't work with gnome/kde, so i visit freedesktop only sporadically
it sounds good 12:03
wolverian the idea is nice, though. I'm not sure how fully it is implemented in even COM and such.
nothingmuch OSX has a FileManger object in Cocoa
it's got some nice facilities
for creating, opening, closing, saving (atomically too)
it wraps aroudn kqueue (i think) for notifications
maybe in GNUStep it's done with FAM 12:04
wolverian isn't FAM just an alteration monitor? 12:05
(e.g. not a generic messaging bus)
nothingmuch oh!
another OSX thing:
pbcopy, pbpaste
very useful
pbpaste | perl is something i use all the time
wolverian what does that do?
nothingmuch wolverian: i meant the monitoring part
it talks to the clipboard
in nextstep it's called the pasteboard 12:06
wolverian nothingmuch: ah. yes, I expect linux things to use fam/gamin for that.
(gamin is a strict subset of fam functionality, simpler code)
hmm, pbcopy/paste seems useful. 12:08
I wonder if I have something like that. using the mouse is a bother.
kungfuftr nothingmuch: rightio... generated... add to script 12:09
nothingmuch kungfuftr++ 12:10
so now we have osx and freebsd
you should ci your css change
(just normalize the grey so it's on the whole doc, i think) 12:11
autrijus purr 12:12
q[acme] miaow 12:13
kungfuftr nothingmuch: k 12:14
nothingmuch: who else is running an auto-smoke? 12:18
nothingmuch me, so far
we're working on merging it
well, planning on working
i'll write a CGI that takes the tests.yml and consolidates
and then keeps HTML results X revisions back, or something
kungfuftr ah, k 12:19
i might need to change it to run every hour instead of every 30 mins 12:20
=0(
jabbot pugs - 1372 - Changes to make the testgraph more reada 12:21
pugs - 1371 - r4327@speights: samv | 2005-03-31 20:1
pugs - 1370 -
pugs - 1369 - r4313@speights: samv | 2005-03-30 15:1
kungfuftr nothingmuch: no plans to hack Test::Smoke for our purposes? 12:23
nothingmuch soon 12:25
;-)
it'll be in pugs
kungfuftr yay 12:27
rightio... auto-smoker will run every hour here now 12:28
=0/
12:32 obra is now known as ingy_, ingy_ is now known as whiteg_ 12:33 whiteg_ is now known as obra
shapr huzzah! 13:40
nothingmuch LOL: Die Larry Wall and Perl developers, 13:42
castaway ?
nothingmuch this was a thank you letter ;-)
hmm 13:43
rgs harmless typo.
I suppose.
nothingmuch it's still very cute
rgs in fact, I hope it's only a typo 13:44
Juerd This is why you should enter text with a keyboard, not thought recognition. 13:45
nothingmuch groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.p...81e478fa0a
Juerd: i meant to ask you
know the touchstream, and what you said about RSI and physical/audible feeback?
Juerd I even mentioned it in that conversation
nothingmuch i /reaaallly/ like feedback (apple keyboards of the 80s have wonderful response) 13:46
i have no rsi problems
Juerd And I said I thought it'd be horrible, but otoh maybe not because you don't have to press anything, so you also don't have to know when to stop pressing.
nothingmuch i hate reaching for the mouse
and i like gestures
Juerd I haven't tried any yet.
nothingmuch ok, that sort of makes sense
nothingmuch is afraid that if he'll buy it he'll start developing some problems
the bass has tought me to be gentle
but that's the mother of all feedbacks 13:47
Juerd The only way to find out if something is a good solution for you, is to try
nothingmuch thinks he may not be able to decide till after it's too late
at $400 i'm a bit hesitant =)
Juerd I spent thousands.
In fact, in USD it'll be well over 10k. 13:48
nothingmuch on ergo equip?
Juerd Often I like something at first, and then after a month start hating it.
You can't evaluate input devices in a week.
nothingmuch doesn't have ergo problems, i'm only seeking the coolness
well, ok, good point
Juerd And certainly not in a few minutes in a store
nothingmuch someone at work is a fan of these things
Juerd Or worse: from pictures on a website
nothingmuch so i might be able to steal it
the touch pad thing really seems logical to me 13:49
especially for scrolling
Juerd Yes, but I wonder if a keyboard without keys would work well
nothingmuch i don't know about typing
Juerd My current keyboard the opposite of flat :)
nothingmuch excatly
Juerd And the touchstream thingies are as flat as can be.
I really like this keyboard.
I'm going to buy one for at home soon.
nothingmuch this is my other option: matias.ca/tactilepro/ 13:50
i think
for the clickity behavior
Juerd Clickies are nice to type with if you have strong hands
If your hands are not strong, don't use them even if you like them
I liked them, but my hands weren't strong enough
castaway bah, clickies
Juerd And training is an illusion.
nothingmuch i had the original clickie keyboard this one refers to 13:51
i used it for a long while
Juerd Long whiles don't say a thing
nothingmuch .../ 13:52
?
Juerd I used the same great keyboard for many years until I first experienced tremendous pain.
Then I had to switch
nothingmuch when did that start?
Juerd August 2001
nothingmuch i mean age wise
Juerd The information sheet has no information.
17
Maybe 18 13:53
nothingmuch beh. tough decisions
Juerd Yes, 18.
What crappy site is this?
They don't mention the force of the keys. 13:54
nothingmuch which site is crappy?
ihb Juerd: if you had to choose, would you take a split keyboard with buttons that are harder to press, or a straight laptop-type keyboard?
nothingmuch the keyboard one i posted?
Juerd ihb: The normal famous split keyboards only move the problem from your wrists to your shoulders
ihb: So then it'd be the laptop keyboard, but only a good one - not compaq. 13:55
ihb what makes a laptop keyboard good?
Juerd ihb: However, if I had to choose between a good split keyboard (kinesis contoured) and a laptop kb, the kinesis'd win
The kinesis has perfect feedback too, by the way.
It clicks loudly.
ihb: The IBM part number ;) 13:56
ihb Juerd: my wrists hurt when i type on straight keyboards. :-/
Juerd ihb: It should feel solid, not wobbly.
ihb: And feedback must be right
ihb Juerd: kinesis contoured?
shapr I have two kinesis contoured, they're my favorit!
Juerd The Type Matrix keyboards are a nice idea, but I never got to fully evaluate the design principle because they implemented it with a rather crappy type of laptop keyboard, which gets on my nerves.
shapr And I use a custom "I am not a koala" keymap that moves all modifier keys under my thumbs.
Juerd ihb: www.kinesis-ergo.com 13:57
shapr Have you guys seen the flinder?
Juerd shapr: Eh, all except shift already are there.
ihb i'm about to get a new keyboard, so any tips are appreciated. :-)
shapr I'd suggest kinesis contoured.
Juerd ihb: If you're on a budget, get a Key Tronics ErgoForce
ihb: If not, Kinesis Contoured 13:58
shapr Juerd: I swapped Shift_L and DEL, and got rid of Shift_R (it's iswitchb-buffer now). I remapped End and PgDn to Hyper, and Home and PgUp to Super. 13:59
nothingmuch would like a programmer's dvorak
shapr My keymap started out as dvorak. 14:00
castaway desert-island.dynodns.net/bilder/di...iraffe.jpg (my keyboard)
nothingmuch {} and sigils should be easy
; should be veeerry easy
every time i try to switch programming stops me
shapr: what other changes did you make?
ihb Juerd: so you're saying that in general split isn't any better than straight? 14:01
shapr Meaning-oriented changes mostly. I'm in pursuit of Jef Raskin's ideals.
castaway (dont all click at once, that lags :)
shapr castaway: gorgeous keyboard, what did you map that large giraffe key to do? ;-)
nothingmuch shapr: i have a silly project i'm not getting to that is sort of like raskin's zoom
did i bug you or only stevan about it?
shapr Not me.
nothingmuch i'll bug you some time, if you're curious 14:02
shapr I'd very much like to hear about it.
nothingmuch i know how i'll implement it, i just can't find the tuits
castaway shapr, its the look-cute key :)
nothingmuch has to go to his bass lesson soon though
so can't now
shapr I agree with Raskin's ideas, though I don't always agree with his implementations. I met him at EuroPython 2004, and I'm sorry he's gon now :-(
castaway: Wow, great idea! 14:03
Juerd ihb: Depends on your body.
Juerd: For thin people, it's bad.
shapr Isn't that a key-locked 5.25 disk holder to the left of your screen?
castaway checks 14:04
Juerd nothingmuch: I use dvorak and like it very much.
nothingmuch: My dvorak course is at dvorak.nl
kungfuftr ah... much better
castaway (the pic is a bit old)
shapr I'm not thin, and I still don't like split keyboards. I think the kinesis design is much more natural. When you sit down and relax, do you put your hands on your knees, or together in your lap?
castaway na, thats a 3.5" box
Juerd shapr: Hands on the keyboard 14:06
They give you soft pads with it
It's comfortable too
shapr I mean split keyboards like microsoft natural. They still put your hands together. Kinesis doesn't require that.
I much prefer Kinesis.
Juerd The distance is fixed though
At a good distance imo 14:07
shapr ihb: if you're in north Sweden, you can try my Kinesis =)
Juerd And if you're near .nl, you can try mine
But not for a month, because I need it :)
shapr I have a spare.
ihb haha :-)
Juerd It takes more than a month to get used to it
shapr Hm, it took me about three days.
Juerd Were you no touch typists before? 14:08
s/ts/t/
shapr But then, I regularly remap my keyboard for fun, maybe that's related?
Juerd haha
The problem I had is that the keys are no longer horizontally shifted each row
They're in a matrix position, and that took serious getting used to 14:09
shapr Oh yeah, I had that problem with the next to bottom row, my fingers couldn't find that row at all the first few hours.
Juerd I have to admit that I still have only one and half of my typing is at home on a normal keyboard
I have a problem with the bottom row
I've remapped all those keys elsewhere so I have two options
Only very slowly I'm getting used to hitting the original keys 14:10
shapr I have a theory that dealing with change is a skill like any other, and I practice that with stuff like continual small keymap changes.
Juerd I can handle small keymap changes well
And it took me only a week or so to get used to dvorak 14:11
(then a month to regain my old speed)
shapr That is impressive.
And that's not a small change.
Juerd It's a big change indeed
But using the key positions I had always used
Getting used to keys in a slightly different position is harder
shapr For me that's the other way around. I can use different keyboards with the same layout just fine. But different layouts on the same keyboard is more difficult. 14:12
Juerd shapr: What layout do you use? 14:13
shapr modified dvorak.
Like I said, I've moved the modifier keys under my thumbs.
Juerd Modifier keys are not part of dvorak.
shapr True, but dvorak on kinesis does define modifier keys. 14:14
mattc Hi all, I'm thinking of having a look at the modules and tests for missing builtins in the IO namespace. Anything you think I should know?
Juerd shapr: Not differently from qwerty
mattc sorry to interrupt the keyboard chat :)
shapr heh
Juerd shapr: I don't use the kinesis' dvorak layout by the way. I hate how it changes some things around for no reason at all.
And I must have `~ in the upper left corner
castaway wonders if she missed a pic of a kinesis, whatever that is 14:15
Juerd castaway: www.kinesis-ergo.com "contoured"
shapr I don't know what the kinesis dvorak layout is, I use the dvorak layout flavor I like.
castaway: kinesis-ergo.com/images/500-blk.jpg
mattc: which tests? 14:16
castaway mm, funky, tho it looks like it needs more space on the desk
shapr I'm a lambdafolk trying to get comfy in the Perl6 world.
castaway: it's smaller actually, because of the missing keypad .
wolverian I seriously need to force myself to learn dvorak. dammit, I'll just move the keys physically.
castaway but theres all that space in the middle 14:17
ihb shapr: ah, we've talked in haskell, haven't we?
shapr It is taller than other keyboards, which gave me a neat idea. Just put a nano-ITX mobo into the keyboard - www.scannedinavian.com/2004-05-24.html
ihb: yes we have.
castaway *g* shapr 14:18
looks odd.. anyway
mattc shapr: um, eof, fileno, getc etc 14:21
Juerd castaway: No, less space.
mattc tests for those builtins 14:22
Juerd castaway: Or, well, a little more, but not significantly.
wolverian are strings arrays/lists in perl6?
castaway Juerd: hmm take a pic of one in action? :)
Juerd castaway: Action in a picture?
shapr I think the request is for a picture of a Kinesis on a desktop in front of a screen. 14:23
castaway Juerd: heh, yup.. y'know what I mean, with hands and surroundings etc
shapr Then you get a better feeling for the amount of space it requires.
Juerd With hands? WHY? :)
castaway correctimo
because
wolverian just wondering, since S02 seems to say that arrays also have .bytes etc. and handling strings and arrays the same skips a .split.. :)
Juerd I'm not going to show you my hands. That's private! :) 14:24
castaway then borrow someones :)
Juerd castaway: This is madness :)
shapr gives Juerd a hand
I've got a spare.
castaway :) 14:25
castaway never claimed to be sane
shapr Oh, I had an idea for a seriously nutty keymap recently. Hidden Markov Model!
Juerd I can make a picture of my desk if you want
But without body parts.
shapr Instead of one single keymap, create a unique optimized keymap to follow each key pressed, and reserve one key to reset to a known state.
castaway That would be appreciated 14:26
Juerd It's a mess though 14:27
Be warned :)
castaway :) 14:28
cant be worse than ours.. hmm, wheres that bash.org-mess entry.. 14:29
same url bilder/mess.jpg :)
Juerd same url? 14:30
same as what?
shapr As the giraffe?
castaway as the one I gave before
castaway is too lazy to type (same hostname, really)
stevan mattc: you were asking about IO builtin tests?
castaway thats a more recent pic too
mattc stevan: yes, I was 14:31
was thinking about having a look at porting the IO namespace
some builtin tests seems a logical place to start
stevan mattc: the IO namespace? as in Haskell System.IO?
mattc stevan: no, the perl 5 IO namespace 14:32
shapr Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
Juerd castaway: It's less, but only because I have a bigger desk and a lot of space to store stuff.
mattc don't know anything about Haskell....
stevan mattc: ah
mattc: well the t/builtins/io/ directory could definitely use some work 14:33
mattc stevan: yeah, looking at that now
stevan you might also was to look at Synopsis 29 for a list of Built-ins
shapr And I don't know anything about Perl...
mattc excellent
castaway yeah, 2 machines on the same desk is pushing it a bit
mattc I'll do that
stevan mattc: here is the link to teh latest version www.rodadams.net/Perl/S29.html 14:34
mattc stevan: thanks very much
Juerd foto.juerd.nl/desk.jpg
Left desk is mine
mattc any other pointers are welcome :)
stevan mattc: actually it looks like Syn 16 will cover IO more
mattc ok
stevan mattc: t/README is a good reference
other that that, just ask here, and someone will answer :) 14:35
mattc: are you committer yet?
mattc yeah
castaway ooh, loadsaspace
Juerd castaway: Do you want a picture with this keyboard and a normal one?
stevan good
mattc I did some tests a couple of weeks ago
castaway mm, yeah, why not, if you've got one handy..
thats a high monitor, are you tall? :)
mattc alright, I'll get started then, thanks for your help stevan 14:36
Juerd 1m83
scw Juerd: Why's the mouse on the floor? :p
stevan Juerd: is that some kind of foot pedal?
Juerd stevan: Yes
stevan mattc: your welcome :)
Juerd: what for?
Juerd stevan: To access the numeric portion of the keyboard
The "keypad" layer
Which is full of macros and remapped keys :)
castaway looks up 14:37
stevan Juerd: very cool
mattc: be sure to add yourself to the AUTHORS file as well 14:38
shapr Juerd: is that silly putty on your desk? 14:39
Juerd castaway: foto.juerd.nl/keyboards.jpg
castaway: Smaller, as you can see
shapr: No, crazy putty.
stevan shapr: I saw that too :)
shapr grins
castaway scales pic 14:40
ah yes, eversoslightly
shapr stevan: Is Silly Putty still sold in the US?
Juerd Get firefox :)
stevan looks like Juerd likes Jelly Beans as well :)
Juerd shapr: crazyputty.com
stevan: winegums
stevan shapr: I think so
Juerd: winegums?
Juerd That's what they're called 14:41
shapr Similar to jelly beans.
EuroBeans =)
Juerd Not really, shapr
shapr I think they're similar.
stevan for a more "mature" palette :)
castaway Juerd, only one problem tho.. I got taught (cough) one-handed typing :)
Juerd Winegums are soft, larger, not as annoyingly sweet
castaway: So?
castaway uses 1.5 hands tho
well, wont work on that keyboard so well :)
Juerd castaway: With this keyboard you automatically learn to type :)
castaway try it without thumbs ,) 14:42
Juerd Forget it
wolverian Juerd: is that windows running on your computer? :)
Juerd Do you not have thumbs?
wolverian: No
wolverian: It's the IE icon, right?
:)
wolverian yes. :) it'd have to be custom themed, though. 14:43
Juerd It's KDE
And IE runs with wine
wolverian ah, okay.
are you one of those strange people who don't run everything maximised?
castaway No, no thumbs
Juerd I quite messed up Abeltje's lightening talk about IE automization
castaway grins at wolverian (thanks for adding to my survey .)
shapr uses ion3 14:44
Juerd By asked "Will that work with IE under Linux?" "Of cour... IE under Linux?!"
s/asked/asking/
wolverian castaway: can I see this survey somewhere? :)
shapr yeah, me too.
Juerd wolverian: Yes.
castaway wolverian: heh, its in my head.. people that like everything maximised are seriously male brained (IMO anyway) 14:45
shapr male brained?
wolverian castaway: why?
Juerd I'm male and homosexual. Should be male brained.
shapr I am thoroughly male, if that helps any.
wolverian I'm a very girlish male! 14:46
shapr castaway: I shall ask the ion3 author if he has any females on the mailing list. That's a fascinating idea.
castaway well (my opinion), its similar to the multi-tasking thing.. men that cant stand seeing more than one window at once are terrible multitaskers
whats ion3?
wolverian castaway: a window manager. think screen for X
castaway and its all due to male brainedness..
Juerd foto.juerd.nl/winegums.jpg # not jelly beans.
wolverian (although it's not as simple; a better equivalent would be ratpoison)
shapr ion3 is the ultimate in running everything maximised.
wolverian shapr: ratpoison!
castaway (ie concentration on the task at hand - hunting, not gathering)
shapr wolverian: I can't use gimp well with ratpoison. 14:47
castaway shapr: that would be an interesting question, yes
shapr castaway: I disagree, I cannot function in this society without large doses of methylphenidate.
wolverian shapr: ah, okay.
Juerd shapr: See? Not similar.
castaway Juerd: not all males are male-brained
methy-wot?
shapr Ritalino
Vitamin R :-)
ADDeral, Concerta, etc
Juerd castaway: So there could be a female in my head? That's scary. 14:48
castaway has no clue what that is and why
Juerd (Women just are scary. Not my fault.)
shapr The trade name Ritalin has the chemical name methylphenidate.
castaway Juerd: its all my personal opinion, see it how you will :)
shapr castaway: it's a fascinating question, thanks for mentioning it. I shall continue to do research on that question for the next few years.
Juerd wants confirmation from shapr (concentrate! :)) about winegums not being like jelly beans 14:49
shapr Juerd: No sir, I lived in the USA for the first 27 years of my life, and I've been in Finland and Sweden the next five years. I believe that winegums are very similar to jelly beans.
stevan Juerd: are they wine flavored?
Juerd And I'm not going to say what I want to say about ion before you answer :)
shapr: They're not!
stevan: Yes.
shapr c'est votre choix
Similarity is in the eye of the beholder. 14:50
Juerd shapr: Anyway, ion works well with non-maximized windows.
castaway shapr I still dont know what Rita-wotsit is.. (but whatever .)
Juerd I've used it for more than a year.
shapr castaway: have you heard of ADD or ADHD?
castaway shapr, wine gums are nothing like jelly beans!
Juerd castaway++
castaway shapr, vaguely
shapr If you say so. Possibly my US culture oriented palate has been permanently poisoned by the refined sugar culture from which I originate.
stevan shapr: they dont look or sound like jellybeans, I am gonna have to agree with them
Juerd Real winegums have the wine they taste like stamped on them, these all say "REDBAND" 14:51
stevan Juerd: are they a dutch thing? or german thing?
Juerd I don't know
stevan remembers lots of weird gummi's from his time in germany
Juerd The name is english :)
castaway british
stevan even stranger :P
Juerd So
shapr castaway: Small children who cannot sit still, who cannot focus on a single task, they grow up to become adults who are just the same. Like me!
Juerd What else do you want to see? 14:52
castaway wine gums are soft, jelly beans have hard shells
Juerd It's almost 5 o'clock
stevan shapr: all Hail the ADD !!!!
shapr Hail Eris!
Juerd shapr: Long live cocai^Writalin
castaway shapr ah.. just another different human trait
Juerd No more pictures?
shapr castaway: Yup, but at certain extremes it does not fit into today's society.
stevan likes his ADD, and dislikes ritalin 14:53
shapr I love Ritalin. I can keep a job now!
Heck I have my own company now.
Juerd shapr: You don't mind that it does things to your thought stream?
stevan shapr: so many of my coworkers have ADD, so ti works well for me
shapr Juerd: Yes I do mind. But the natural me does not function in this society.
Juerd shapr: I have my own company too. Doesn't mean I'm having work :) 14:54
castaway Juerd: aeh, no all done, thanksverymuch!
stevan mind-altering drugs ++ :)
Juerd castaway: You're welcome
shapr: Natural me has trouble too, but so far manages
stevan functioning-in-society--
castaway bah, drugs--
making society fit oneself, better .)
wolverian work-- 14:55
shapr The point of drugs like Ritalin is to allow the user to build up habits that solve the problem so that you can (hopefully) not need the drugs at some point.
stevan castaway++
castaway sounds like a bad theory
shapr I dunno. Some parts of it are true for me.
stevan shapr: my worries with Ritalin was always that its really just high-grade speed 14:56
shapr It's not. I've had amphetamines too, and they are a 'dirty stimulant'. The side effects sucked.
stevan speed is really bad for your heart (among other organs)
shapr Ritalin specifically stimulates the focus parts of the brain.
Juerd As if ritalin has no side effects.
castaway tries to remember where this tied in with male brains :) 14:57
shapr Ritalin has almost zero side effects for me. The only one of any importance is that I get nervous in social situations.
stevan shapr: you are likely immune to the side effects now
shapr castaway: you were talking about focus oriented male brains. I use full-screen-only ion3 and I am *not* focussed.
castaway ah, gotcha
Juerd foto.juerd.nl/office.jpg
Last picture for now :)
shapr stevan: Could be. I started taking Ritalin four years ago. 14:58
oh, I want to post a picture! It's me! www.scannedinavian.com/images/uni-hop.jpg
Right so, how can lambdafolk contribute to Pugs? 14:59
Juerd Your bicycle is broken.
shapr Juerd: Now two people can use my bicycle at the same time!
castaway grins
shapr, can I clarify that, are the *Apps* fullscreen in ion3 ? 15:00
hattmoward I think you've got a penguin infestation, son.
Juerd castaway: Windows can't overlap in ion
(not by default that is)
castaway Oh
Juerd castaway: So they fill up to preformatted shapes, by default: full screen
shapr castaway: www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/ecb.png
Juerd shapr: Ew, big terminal.
I like to have 6 terminals on screen when I'm programming 15:01
It saves you a lot of brain context switches.
shapr I have eshell.
Juerd What be that?
wolverian ew, emacs. :)
Juerd EEEEEEEEwwwwwmacs.
hattmoward keeps two terminals connected to the same screen session 15:02
shapr emacs shell. M-s pops up eshell into the same directory as the file I'm seeing. And I can use buffers like files on the command line in shell. So I get to pipe in and out of buffers.
Juerd Oh, when I said 6 terminals, note that three of them are remote ssh sessions with screen running
shapr Haven't you ever wished files you're editing were directly addressable from the command line?
stevan regularly has 6 terminal windows too, of which 3 are SSH
Juerd stevan++ :) 15:03
stevan and at least one is Pugs :)
one for dev server, one for staging server and one for prod server
shapr emacs can also edit over one or more of ssh, su, sudo, scp, etc. So I need ssh less. 15:04
castaway Juerd: thats what we were talking about :)
Juerd I'm going to tidy this place a little and then drive home
castaway pounces on hatt
Juerd castaway: We were? What exactly?
hattmoward no!
15:04 Corion_ is now known as Corion
castaway multiple thingys on the screen ,) 15:04
Juerd castaway: Does that make my brain female then?
castaway IMO, yup
shapr Ich veiss nicht!
Ich habe keine ahnung!
Juerd Aren't "male" and "female" terribly wrong then?
stevan also has IRC, iTunes and iCHa 15:05
Juerd shapr: weiss, Ahnung.
shapr whoops, thanks.
Anyway, how can lambdafolk contribute to the Revolution? Is there a lambdafaq?
castaway Juerd: depends on the context..
whats a lamdafolk?
stevan castaway: how is it that a female brain is better at multi-tasking?
Juerd castaway: Restricted greeks.
shapr Juerd: only if camelfolk count as that too :-) 15:06
stevan shapr: I have a list of things I would like implemented :) if you are looking for something to do
castaway stevan, the theory (ages old) goes, that men were out hunting (as cave people this is), and thus had to fully concentrate, to avoid getting hunted themselves..
stevan hmmm
castaway While women gathered, looked after kids, cooked, make clothing etc.
shapr stevan: Tell me more. No promises as to what I can do though. 15:07
Juerd shapr: camelfolks are kamlotaur :)
shapr So women were forced to multitask?
stevan castaway: ok, that makes sense,... however I blame it less on my "female"-ness and more on my ADD
hattmoward castaway: I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. ;)
shapr grins
Corion Grrr. lightstep broke my pugsrun tests while refactoring the code :(
stevan shapr: I commited some test for basic builtins yesterday
shapr "Messages in A Bottle" - Castaway's Writings. 15:08
stevan hex(), chr(), ord(), and some math functions
Juerd castaway: But women can't drive and I can. How does that work?
:)
castaway Right.. but lately, the theory is less that these functionalities (?) are bodily oriented, just more brain oriented, that a "female" brain has more connections between the 2 halves
castaway drives Juerd off a cliff, just to prove
stevan castaway: I will buy that one
castaway shapr++ 15:09
shapr castaway: Does ambidexterity count?
I tend to switch primary hands every coupla years for entertainment purposes.
castaway shapr, I hadnt taken that into account.. but it sounds female-brained to me
stevan went to school for fine-arts painting and ended up a programmer
castaway funky
Juerd castaway: But autism is said to be related to having *less* connections between brainhalves
xerox shapr: how do you use buffer like files in pipes?
Juerd castaway: This could explain why more men are autistic, in the context of what you said
stevan shapr: I am starting to think Ritalin is a good thing for you :)
Juerd castaway: But it'd make me a very weird person.
shapr xerox: sure.
castaway Juerd: yup.. which is why autistics are not good at most things, just the one, no?
shapr stevan: I know it is! 15:10
castaway people are weird, theres no getting around that
shapr stevan: Where are you? Maybe I can drop by one day and meet you.
I like to meet ADD people. They're always interesting.
castaway taught herself to write lefthanded, just because :)
shapr Have you tried left-footed writing?
stevan shapr: Eastern US, Connecticut
Corion Writing upside-down/right-to-left is a fun exercise too (that is, 180Ā° rotated) 15:11
shapr I can type on my kinesis with my feet, except for the fact that my largest toe *really* gets in the way.
Juerd I can type with my feet
stevan just uses telekenisis
Juerd But I never hit the keys I want to.
shapr I can also take my glasses off with my feet, but I end up with toeprints on the lenses.
stevan Juerd++
shapr stevan: mah roots is Birminhayum, so I dunno if I'll get up that way anytime soon. 15:12
castaway Juerd++
shapr, I never got far with my feet, odd that
stevan shapr: Birminhayum? 15:13
shapr Birmingham, Alabama
castaway taking glasses off is easier
15:13 clkao_ is now known as clkao
stevan shapr: ahh, I've been to Mobile, but never Birmingham 15:14
Juerd Who wants to buy a crappy colour laser printer? 15:15
EUR 350
stevan Juerd: you might want to improve your sales pitch :)
Juerd It's brand new. 15:16
And does duplex printing
stevan unless 'crappy' means 'really nice' in Dutch
shapr snickers
lekker == lexer? =)
Juerd stevan: No, the print quality really is subprofessional :)
shapr ik begrijp het niet!
Juerd shapr: lekker == tasting good
shapr: DAN HEB JE PECH
shapr snickers
Juerd m&m's 15:17
hattmoward mr. goodbar... s 15:18
Juerd heh.
stevan winegums 15:19
castaway pokes hatt 15:20
hattmoward hmm? 15:21
jabbot pugs - 1373 - * even more speculative work on IMC comp
castaway rejoin #pm, silly :) 15:22
hattmoward yah, scott let me know
wasn't paying attention
shapr sings "I'll send an SMS to the world" 15:23
hattmoward heheh 15:24
castaway tsktsk 15:25
castaway grins
castaway has no mobile phone
Juerd Are you proud of not having a mobile phone? 15:27
castaway yup 15:28
shapr stevan: it seems the darcs repo hasn't been updated since day before yesterday, that's why I can't find your changes. 15:30
Corion BTW, does the current build still build/test/work for anybody ? I think it must be broken due to the borked argument parsing ... 15:31
stevan shapr: try svn
shapr I think I'll just wait...
Corion Ah - no, some stuff still works (but -l doesn't I think) 15:33
stevan shapr: so do you do Haskell at work? 15:34
shapr Some, yes.
Mostly I do Python at work.
Juerd Where do you work? 15:35
shapr In my bed!
Juerd You mostly do Python in bed?
That's scary.
shapr Seriously though, I have two companies, one which is just me, and one which is I half own with my fiancee.
Juerd I know what working in bed is like 15:36
I do that too sometimes
But not Python! :)
shapr is afraid to ask.
Juerd Afraid to ask what?
(heh)
shapr Nothing to ask here, move along folks.
Juerd No, ask
stevan shapr: what kind of work do your do?
shapr stevan: if it's geeky work, I'll take money to do it.
Juerd stevan: My guess is that he's mostly a Python programmer.
shapr: What about nerdy work then? 15:37
shapr I dunno the difference.
I mostly do webdev in Zope/Plone the last year or two.
autrijus try darcs again
shapr yay
autrijus is it synced?
error was "argument lists too long"
shapr I dunno, but if you ask me to try it's likely.
autrijus the buffer overflow for the shells
PerlJam shapr: you mean you don't code scheme for a living? ;)
shapr PerlJam: I scheme to code for a living, does that count? 15:38
PerlJam :-)
autrijus be glad you don't code schema for a living :
:)
shapr laughs
Juerd shapr: Enough can be found with Google about the difference.
Juerd is both :)
shapr I did some XSLT work recently, it was painful.
Juerd shapr: What was that question now?
shapr Ich habe keine Ahnung!
Ik veit het niet!
Juerd weet
shapr thanks 15:39
castaway It ws "which work did you do from bed"
,)
Juerd Du hast wohl eine Ahnung en je weet 't wel!
shapr Jag har ingen aning!
castaway hat aber auch keine Ahnung
shapr wonders if Juerd speaks any Swedish...
Juerd (This opposite of "not" is something I really, really miss in English.)
shapr You can say "You do so have a suspicion." 15:40
Juerd shapr: nej
shapr But you're right, such a thing is rarely used in English.
Juerd shapr: Jag inte alls talar Svenska 15:41
jabbot pugs - 1374 - Added examples/obfu/snowing.p6 -- first
shapr Och kan jag inte tala Svenska heller.
Juerd Vad trōæ½xE5kigt... 15:42
xerox ƶ 15:43
Juerd xerox: My terminal doesn't do utf-8
xerox It was a smiley :P
shapr tyvƤrr
Corion I need some Haskell help - the ArgParse.h does not parse C<-I foo> anymore since the ADT rewrite, and I don't know how to coax the Haskell except some ugly postprocessing :) 15:44
Juerd shapr: What's the 4th character?
shapr: ōæ½xE4? 15:45
&auml;
shapr tyv&auml;rr
c'est 'quelle dommage' en suƩdois.
autrijus gatherargs?
Corion: line 93
gatherArgs("-I":dir:rest) = [Opt "-I" dir] ++ gatherArgs(rest)
rgs 'quel dommage', even
shapr rgs: merci :-) 15:46
stevan: aha, the naturalOrRat code?
Corion autrijus: That line already exists in my source ...
autrijus add a (('-':'I':dir):rest) form?
stevan shapr: no I added the t/builtins/hex.t,ord.t, chr.t and the t/builtins/math/* tests 15:47
Corion autrijus: According to my printouts, the parsing already messes things up by allowing "-I" if not followed by a value to become "-I" "", which is wrong.
autrijus oh ok.
Corion autrijus: I didn't rework it to become like it is now, I just want to fix my test cases anymore :)
Juerd shapr: comment pensez-vous que je ne pouvait deviner ca? ;)
+pas
Corion autrijus: err - s!anymore!!
autrijus Corion: I see. talk to lightstep? :)
shapr looks up deviner...
autrijus I can take a look it after my journaling too 15:48
Corion autrijus: If lightstep were here, I'd ask/explain/point out the failing tests :)
shapr Of course, 'to divine'
Corion autrijus: maybe I'll find somebody who explains it while you
... you're journaling :)
Juerd shapr: kaj kiel paroladas ni fremdlingve? :)
autrijus Corion: shapr here is also a skilled lambdafolk :) 15:49
shapr minƤ en puhu norska!
Corion autrijus: :)
shapr Juerd: Is that norsk?
autrijus shapr: so is the darcs repo uptodate?
shapr Corion: though I claim tmoertel is more skilled than me in both lambda and camel worlds.
wolverian shapr: en minōæ½xE4kōæ½xE4ōæ½xE4n. :) 15:50
Juerd shapr: I have no idea. Jeg snakker ikke norsk.
Corion shapr: I don't mind - I'm not really skilled in making Haskells pattern matching work for me :)
shapr autrijus: datewise it seems so, but it might not be, I can't find hex.t / ord.t / chr.t
autrijus t/builtins/hex.t ? 15:51
shapr I haven't got one.
shapr pulls again
jabbot pugs - 1375 - Missing keywords
shapr Nope
Corion got hex.t 15:52
r1375
stevan has it too (but I wrote it, so ....)
shapr wolverian: kiitos
Juerd I'm going home now
wolverian shapr: ole hyvōæ½xE4.
Juerd Gxis revidoj!
Corion shapr: You got a moment / inclination to look into the command line parser ArgParse.hs ?
wolverian Juerd: bye.
shapr looks 15:53
Corion shapr: The problem in parsing is, that -I and -e can be given in two variants, -Ifoo and -I foo. The parser currently only allows/thinks of the first variant, and gives an empty string plus a separate (wrong) argument in the second case. 15:54
"How to fix that?"
shapr Which tests work on this? 15:59
autrijus shapr: try again?
shapr pulls
autrijus I _think_ it's fixed
for real thi
s time
stevan shapr: none :) hex(), ord() and chr() are not yet implemented
shapr what about the -I arg? It has tests? 16:00
autrijus oh. I'll also be happier if ArgParse.hs
can be renamed into Main/Args.hs or Run/Args.hs etc.
shapr autrijus: yay! I have {hex,ord,chr}.t !
autrijus but it's not a priority :)
shapr: yay!
shapr thanks!
xerox Be back later, enjoy pugs hacking shapr ;) 16:01
shapr :-)
Corion: Is there a test for -Idir ?
Corion shapr: pugsrun/01-dash-uppercase-i.t
shapr: (tests both, -Idir and -I dir) 16:02
shapr spiffy
er, and what the command to run just one test again? :-/
autrijus make
preferably make install
Corion shapr: I wouldn't care for -I dir, but theorbtwo uses it and Perl supports it too :)
autrijus then ./pugs t/pugsrun/01-dash-uppercase-i.t
alternatively, if -I is working 16:03
Corion shapr: I use nmake && pugs -Iblib6\lib -w t\pugsrun\01-dash-uppercase-i.t
autrijus then what corion said.
Corion shapr: You might need to adjust the make tool and the path_sep variable :)
autrijus it doesn't help a lot if -I is broken :D
Corion autrijus: Luckily, -Ifoo is not (yet) broken ;)
autrijus very lucky.
Corion We should get to a zero-bug state soonish so one quickly sees if a change broke something... 16:04
shapr I have a package hiding problem with ghc 6.4, is that known?
Corion ... but that conflicts with the goal of having parsebug tests
Maybe a watcher "you broke more tests than when you checked out" would help :) 16:05
autrijus shapr: hm?
shapr Main.hs wants Posix, which is masked by default in ghc 6.4, but ghc-pkg expose posix-1.0 gives me a different compile error.
autrijus oh wow. no. hrm. 16:06
shapr specifically src/Internals.hs:21:4: \n Conflicting exports for `createDirectory': \n `module Posix' exports `System.Posix.Directory.createDirectory' imported from Posix at src/Internals.hs:66:0-11 \n `module System.Directory' exports `System.Directory.createDirectory' imported from System.Directory at src/Internals.hs:83:0-22
autrijus I wonder why it does owrk for me.
shapr That's after ghc-pkg expose posix-1.0
autrijus try using a ifdef hack to work it around?
shapr tries 16:07
Which createDirectory should be exported from Internals? Sys.Dir or Posix? 16:08
shapr hides createDirectory and removeDirectory from Posix 16:10
autrijus yup. 16:11
jabbot pugs - 1376 - r4722@hcchien: hcchien | 2005-04-01 00
autrijus I think Sys is correct.
kcwu what is the difference between "is(eval'foo')" and "eval_is('foo')"? pugs will terminate with former, not in latter
autrijus weeird. 16:12
there should be no diff.
kcwu t/data_types/anon_block.t line 50 16:13
is(eval'$pointy_block_nested(5)(6)', 11, '-> $a { -> $b { $a+$b }} nested <"pointy" block> works'); will termiate
Corion Yay. I fixed it through voodoo. Fascinating.
autrijus haskell voodoo is fascinating. :) 16:14
stevan kcwu: eval_is just wraps it inside the eval, which will prevent pugs from dieing 16:15
autrijus kcwu: ooh...write a meta-test? :)
kcwu or because haskell lazy?
Corion autrijus: Yes.
Grrr. And lightstep even removed (Perl code generating) functionality :( 16:16
autrijus you can easily revert them back :) 16:18
by some more voodoo, I presume
Corion autrijus: No, because lightstep made the code much more Haskellish, which is what I wanted. But I wrote the tests, so the features I wanted stay :)
(as my Haskell is not good, I see more value in my tests than in the Haskell that I write :)) 16:19
autrijus sure :)
Corion BTW, are BEGIN blocks in already ? 16:21
autrijus no the are not, sadly.
I really need to finish this metacompiler.
Corion autrijus: No worries - BEGIN would be nice, so -l works (by s!-l!-e "BEGIN{ magic }"!), but not important :) 16:22
autrijus svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/o...snowing.p6
asavige is at it again
Juerd This car is going to kill me soon. 16:25
On the way home it stopped functioning twice. In 10 km.
shapr You could get a unicycle.
Juerd And goddamn, suddenly losing power steering IN A CORNER sucks. 16:26
autrijus shapr always mentions unicycles at any given chance :)
shapr laughs
kcwu hmm, I think t/pugsbugs/syntax_crashes.t is about that. # < autrijus> kcwu: ooh...write a meta-test? :)
autrijus kcwu: ah. ok 16:27
ihb since has $.foo = { ...; }; is overloaded to execute at object initialization, is there any other way to create a class attribute that should hold a closure than to wrap the closure in another closure so that the wanted closure is returned at object initialization? (i realize that wasn't exactly crystal clear) 16:31
jabbot pugs - 1378 - tests floating numbers and return types
pugs - 1377 - change fail() with eval_is()
autrijus sub {}
maybe?
ihb autrijus: won't sub {} also create a closure? 16:32
autrijus I'm not terribly sure of that.
ihb hmm, btw, exactly what does "pseudo-assignment" mean? (dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S12.html -- Attributes, 6th paragraph)
perhaps i misinterpreted that paragraph when i first read it. 16:33
i've never heard of pseudo-assignments before.
autrijus points ihb to p6l :-/ 16:34
ihb ok. 16:35
Corion Heh. I think I fixed the argument parsing :) 16:36
ihb a hopefully simpler question: what's the difference between has and my/our?
stevan anyone ever use a hosted SVN server? for work (pseudo-closed source) code? 16:37
autrijus ihb: has is instance prop, my/our is class?
uh, not me, my work uses openfoundry
Corion stevan: I use locally an svn server which I connect to via ssh, but that's the only solution I know via server side 16:38
stevan Corion: that is what we do now, but we are looking to be more "virtual" (aka, get rid of the office)
ihb that's my guess too, but i don't find it clear from S12.
Juerd shapr: unicycles do not go 100 km/h
Corion stevan: Ah, but I'd still keep the svn server hidden behind an ssh tunnel
stevan: (that is, you should run your own server, or at least have some shell accounts on some server) 16:39
shapr Juerd: sounds like your car doesn't either =)
Juerd It does
At that speed, it doesn't fail.
stevan Corion: there are a number of SVN hosts out there which offer secure access cvsdude.org is one
Juerd It's below 30 km/h that it's unreliable
stevan Juerd: so drive him faster
Juerd That's why this keeps happening in corners 16:40
Can't take these any faster.
Corion stevan: Hmmm - interesting... I still believe in self-hosting/administering, but that takes time, true
Juerd stevan: it...
stevan Corion: usually I do too, but without a central location, its hard
s/him/home/
Corion stevan: Why is the location a problem ? I rented a machine in some data center
stevan: I could offer you shell access there, for a miniscule fee :)))) 16:41
shapr Juerd: do you have a carbeurator or fuel injection?
Juerd shapr: Yes
But not when driving on LPG
stevan Corion: that is the other idea, but I thought I would explore the other options first
Juerd And it happens on gas too
stevan would like to not have to be SVN admin anymore 16:42
stevan needs more interns to do the monkey work
Corion stevan: Having a machine on the 'net is some hassle. Pair seem to do good managed hosting, but you don't get to be root on the machine.
stevan: What's so wrong with ssh tunnels into the (managed) machine?
stevan: (other than you staying the svn monkey)
Juerd shapr: Oh, you probably wanted to know which one of the two. Injection. 16:43
stevan Corion: nothing, other than the monkey bit :)
shapr Juerd: If you have a carbeurator, you may need to clean the fuel lines or the exit ports.
Juerd shapr: But LPG isn't directly injected.
shapr Oh, then I don't need to explain to you how Venturi relates to carbeurators.
Juerd shapr: Injectors, spark plugs, valve lid, gasoline pump, gasoline, oil, coolant, PAM sensor, lambda sensor all have already been replaced. 16:44
shapr What's LPG? better gas mileage? and how do you have indirect fuel injection?
Juerd Even the screen wiper fluid has been replaced :)
ihb what happens if you do "class Foo { sub foo { ... } { my $.foo; } { my $.foo; } }" (i assume you can do things like "class Foo { method foo { ... } print 'foo'; method bar { ... } }" in Perl 6)
Juerd shapr: LPG is liquid gas.
shapr: GPL in french, autogas in some languages 16:45
shapr Your car runs on butane or something?
Juerd No, LPG :)
shapr asks google
Juerd It's a mixture of butane and propare IIRC
propaNe
shapr That's amazing.
Juerd It's much cheaper than gasoline. 16:46
shapr That is one sort of car I have never worked on!
Juerd 45 cents instead of EUR 1.27 per liter
You get only 1:10 out of it instead of 1:12 (with my car)
But that's certainly still worth it :)
bbl # dinner 16:47
shapr Internal combustion is at best inefficient with changing demand.
Aaaanyway...
lightstep hello. i saw myself on the journal, can i help? 16:49
autrijus yes you can.
lightstep figured he broke ArgParse
autrijus Corion: lightstep comes!
Corion autrijus: :)
lightstep: I think I fixed most of it already, but I'm hunting down some failures still :) 16:50
lightstep cool
Corion bare "-" for example ("read from stdin")
lightstep: But other than breaking my tests, you did exactly what I had in mind :))))
lightstep: ... although I don't understand the complete stuff yet, it looks far more Haskellish :)
lightstep bare "-" should be where "--" and detecting file names is
that is, in unpackOptions 16:51
lightstep is nowhere near the precious homedir with the local image
Corion lightstep: Yeah ... 16:52
lightstep oh, and findArg should have `guard (not (null param))' in the middle, so `-e expr' will work
and -l is broken, since it was broken anyway, and i didn't know what to do with it 16:53
Corion lightstep: Interesting method - I fudged it by replacing all empty args with the next File. But yes, your way sounds better, and I should add a test that prevents -e "" foo from getting parsed wrongly 16:54
lightstep: What was broken about -l ?
shapr autrijus: are you using ghc 6.4?
autrijus shapr: yes I am.
on fbsd and win32
shapr Weird, I'm getting several errors. 16:55
lightstep it didn't work for me, and the code looked as if it wouldn't work (it expanded to "-e" with comments)
autrijus let me check out darcs to see if it's darcs prob
lightstep and the code can be prettier: '-':x:[] = ['-',x]. i don't know why i forgot about it in the first place
Corion lightstep: That's the idea - -l in Perl5 would be -e "BEGIN{ magic }"
shapr autrijus: oh, I think I just hid the wrong createDirectory, doh 16:56
Oh, I guess not. 16:57
Where's the svn repo?
lightstep you can make "-l" work as a special case in Main and Run, or convert it in procArg, or convert it when finding it 16:58
shapr Mentioned on the homepage maybe? too easy!
autrijus hrm, the network here is dying 16:59
I may have to drop soon. please keep feeding the puppy :)
shapr grins
autrijus: I'll figure it out.
autrijus danke!
&
Corion lightstep: Yep - I put it in gatherArgs currently 17:00
castaway puppy?? 17:01
Corion castaway: Small dog.
castaway sneaks off with the puppy
Corion castaway: Small dog.
Oops - wrong window
shapr castaway: pugscode.org/images/pugs.small.png 17:02
Happy Puppy!
castaway cute!
autrijus shapr: for what its worth, darcs fresh checkout builds just fine on fbsd 5.3 with ghc 6.4. 17:04
[not|autrijus]~/work/pugs_0$ ghc --version
The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.4
lightstep Corion, how did you figure foldl out without learning the haskell libraries?
Corion lightstep: ??? I read some of Prelude
autrijus lightstep: by being exceedingly smart? :) 17:05
Corion lightstep: And I know foldl under the name of "reduce" :)
autrijus: I'm not smart :)
... but I hide the consequences of most of my mistakes very well !
lightstep wow. usually, people learn to use the procedures before the combinators. maybe you're like bird
Corion lightstep: Functional programming (except the types) isn't that foreign a concept to me. Perl has it in some ways too. 17:06
autrijus it's just you have to pay a very heavy language tax in perl to use them :)
up to 70%, in some of Higher Order Perl examples
Corion (and Monads are foreign to me as well; I think I understand what they are for, but haven't grasped them really)
autrijus but yeah, pretty much all advanced perl module authors know some functional stuff, I think. 17:07
Corion autrijus: HOP hasn't come out here yet :( It's a sure buy for me, even though I've read many chapters already :)
autrijus it's great to have a deadtree version :D
Corion autrijus: indeed
theorbtwo autrijus: Take a job translating it, and get paid to have a deadtree version! 17:08
Corion Mmmmm. Translating HOP to German would be a nice idea. Except that I doubt there'll be a market here ;(
rgs HOP. 17:09
autrijus uh, I already have a dead tree version as a gift :)
theorbtwo That, and you aren't an experinced translator.
perl.plover.com/hop/
Somehow I read a Corion line as a autrijus line. 17:10
Corion jabbot: HOP is at perl.plover.com/hop/
jabbot Corion: ōæ½xB0Oōæ½xA6ōæ½xEDōæ½xA4F
Corion jabbot: HOP also is Higher Order Perl
jabbot Corion: ōæ½xADōæ½xECōæ½xA8ōæ½xD3ōæ½xA6pōæ½xA6ōæ½xB9ōæ½xAAōæ½xFCōæ½xA1I
autrijus jabbot: hop?
jabbot autrijus: That is interesting. Please continue.
Corion ... I hope the responses are not insults ...
jabbot: HOP ? 17:11
jabbot Corion: HOP is at perl.plover.com/hop/
autrijus jabbot: HOP?
jabbot autrijus: HOP is at perl.plover.com/hop/
theorbtwo They don't appear to be valid utf8 at all.
Corion theorbtwo: I wondered why ChatZilla wasn't displaying anything worthwhile...
autrijus Corion: no; they are "gotcha" and "ach so!" respectively, in traditional chinese, in big5.
shapr too
haha
Corion autrijus: Ah :) ChatZilla didn't render them as chinese glyphs though ... 17:12
lightstep jabbot, higher order perl?
jabbot lightstep: Please go on.
Corion jabbot: higher order perl is HOP 17:13
jabbot Corion: hmm
Corion :-)))
jabbot: higher order perl?
jabbot Corion: higher order perl is HOP
Corion jabbot: HOP?
jabbot Corion: HOP is at perl.plover.com/hop/
Corion :)
Corion reminiscences the Good Ol' Times with his infobot 17:14
theorbtwo jabbot: HOP is also higher order perl
jabbot theorbtwo: ōæ½xADōæ½xECōæ½xA8ōæ½xD3ōæ½xA6pōæ½xA6ōæ½xB9ōæ½xAAōæ½xFCōæ½xA1I
theorbtwo jabbot: higher order perl is also at perl.plover.com/hop/ 17:15
jabbot theorbtwo: ok
Corion Hah. Fixed.
theorbtwo BTW, autrijus, I'm curious: Do books get translated into both trad and simp, or only one, and if both, do you do both at once, or sepperately? 17:17
Corion thinks that jabbot should chatter whenever it feels a question goes unanswered :) 17:18
castaway eep 17:19
Corion castaway: I ran such a bot - it had a delay of 3s or something, and if nobody seemed to answer the question, it pulled its own answer.
castaway: 'twas fun :)
(provided it had an answer) 17:20
Otherwise it only spoke when directly addressed
Heh. Seems like my fixes didn't break anything else in a spectacular way :)
castaway hmm 17:22
castaway looks for a website where complex flights are bookable.. ie A->B->C->A
Corion castaway: Castorbaway World Tour 2005 ? :) 17:23
castaway: But I think Opodo offers that...
castaway something simliar 17:24
hmm, www.qixo.com was actually nifty (for normal flights), until it failed to come up with one-way ones 17:25
Corion Does 224/3842 failures sound sane for r1378 ?
Corion commits anyway 17:26
Ooooo - ChatZilla is really nice - I can just click into the topic and edit it in-place! 17:27
pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: xrl.us/e98m | Auto-smoke: kungfuftr.com/pugs-smoke.html | win2k:r1378(224/3842) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1342(189/3478) 17:27
Khisanth old news! 17:27
Corion That's a funky interface :) 17:28
Khisanth: But new to me ;)
Khisanth doesn't use chatzilla
jabbot pugs - 1379 - Command line parsing fixes 17:31
theorbtwo When you're editing things and want to make sure you don't create new bugs, save around a tests.yml from before, and diff -u with the one after. 17:42
Corion theorbtwo: Aaaah - that's a great idea! I forgot about the tests.yml, thanks! 17:45
Khisanth hrm those numbers are for how many tests are passing? 17:49
theorbtwo The ones in the /topic? How many are /failing/. 17:55
Corion pass, fail - where is the difference? 17:57
theorbtwo One shows red, the other green? 17:58
It's very christmasy, really...
Reminds me, somebody wanted to ci updates to testgraph, but didn't? 17:59
Corion Hmmm. Should while(=<>) { ... } work ? Because I get "Fail: <stdin>: hGetLine: end of file"
theorbtwo Also, kungfuftr, if you're around, you should check in your testgraph.css, it looks quite nice.
I think you want foreach (), but it should work.
Er, for.
Khisanth I mean the ones for the three different platforms
Corion theorbtwo: Ah, yes :) 18:00
theorbtwo It should parse, though.
Run, even.
Corion The error is gone, but it doesn't read anything :)
theorbtwo It just won't assign the line you read anywhere.
Corion theorbtwo: Ah - then I'll do a TODO test with that :) 18:01
I've implemented -p and -n then, but I'll make the tests TODO, until for (=<>) is implemented
Khisanth about =<>, is it suppose to work? 18:02
Corion Khisanth: No, seems like not yet 18:03
Khisanth oh ok, I was just trying autrijus' slides the other day 18:04
Corion Ah - my tests are TODO already anyway :)
theorbtwo: How do I generate the yml ? 18:05
Corion goes looking at the HTML generator
theorbtwo export HARNESS_PERL=/usr/src/pugs/pugs; perl util/yaml_harness.pl 18:06
Corion theorbtwo: Thanks! :)
Juerd re
theorbtwo nothingmuch, did you take a look at my changes to catalog_tests.pl? 18:07
(Note the lack of .jmm.; I rm'd the other one and mv'd the .jmm. in it's place, since the other one was unmaintainted.)
Corion Eh - I get lots of "Couldn't match line" ... Does that mean it has problems with DOS line endings ?
kungfuftr theorbtwo: the css is checked in now 18:08
Corion Or are there any prereqs that I don't meet ? Like, Test::Harness version? 18:09
kungfuftr bbiab - hometime
theorbtwo No, that means poorly written regexes.
I think.
Corion theorbtwo: Hmmm - doesn't look like my test output would ever match the regex - it scans for /<pos:/ and I've never seen that in test output 18:10
theorbtwo Oh.
I was thinking of some place completely different. 18:11
Corion theorbtwo: That's the only place in the source where I see "Couldn't match line" ...
castaway thunk someone sed earlier, that a newish/er Test::Harness wu a requirymento
castaway wonders if irssi has 'search in buffer'
Corion Ah - I'll upgrade Test::Harness and see what happens
theorbtwo wonders where castaway's spanish kick came from. 18:12
Corion castaway: BTW, I took the plunge and will move my DSL to 1&1
castaway: So in a few weeks, you'll know if you can safely move over :)
castaway ;) 18:13
spanish, moi?
Corion Still the same failures, even though I have Test::Harness v2.46 now
theorbtwo Hm. 18:15
Corion theorbtwo: I can paste the output, but I'll poke the script a bit (after committing) 18:16
crysflame hi, cwest
cwest Hi
theorbtwo Pasting the output would be nice.
crysflame build issue?
Corion Will have to wait, as one of my tests still fails in an unexpected way (rather than in an expected way :)) 18:18
kcwu castaway: try /lastlog to grep logs
castaway Meeee?
wtf?
oh! in irrsi?
kcwu yes
castaway sorry, was miles away already
hmm, guess isnt in the scrollback anymore.. thanks! 18:19
ooh Corion, cute pop-up calendar on www.travelocity.com, when you click in the date box! 18:22
(and it works in Opera ;)
Corion castaway: Mine doesn't ?
castaway I dunno.. just thought you'd be interested ,) 18:23
Corion But yes, it's really cute - I like how it highlights the field you're currently editing
chip Hi all ... anybody remember whether traits can be specified with <> parameters? i.e. if there were a "doc" trait, could I say $x is doc<foo> to mean $x is doc('foo') ? 18:27
castaway indeed, Corion :) 18:29
Corion jabbot, nopaste 18:31
jabbot Corion: Please go on.
pugs - 1380 - Small -p and -n changes
Corion jabbot, nopaste?
jabbot Corion: nopaste is paste.phpfi.com/ or nopaste.snit.ch:8001/ or at irc.csie.org:8888/
Corion jabbot, pastebot? 18:32
jabbot Corion: Tell me more about that.
Corion Hmm - what was the bot that automagically announced the pastes too?
crysflame nopaste?
pastebot?
pasteling! 18:33
Corion Aaah ! crysflame ++
theorbtwo sial.org/pbot
jabbot, nopaste is Use sial.org/pbot 18:34
jabbot theorbtwo: ōæ½xA9Ņ„Hōæ½xA1H
theorbtwo jabbot, patebot is Use sial.org/pbot
jabbot theorbtwo: ok
crysflame blinks
theorbtwo jabbot, pasteling is Use sial.org/pbot
jabbot theorbtwo: ōæ½xA4Fōæ½xB8ōæ½xD1
theorbtwo Somebody told jabbot to use various phrases in big-5.
pasteling "Corion" at 217.234.123.6 pasted "Output of util/yaml_harness.pl for theorbtwo" (45 lines, 1.6K) at sial.org/pbot/8804
cwest bah
Khisanth cwest: still compiling ghc? :) 18:35
cwest heh
nope. make error on pugs actually
pasteling "cwest" at 216.92.130.109 pasted "pugs, make, macosx 10.3" (6 lines, 470B) at sial.org/pbot/8805 18:36
cwest Probably something silly.
theorbtwo Hm, Corion, does setting things in ENV not work correctly, possibly? 18:40
Corion theorbtwo: Aaah - might be - I'll do it manually and verify that
theorbtwo Can you set $ENV{TEST_ALWAYS_CALLER}=1, then run a test by-hand?
Corion Nope - still the same when running the harness. 18:41
... and the output of a single test is no different than with ! exists $ENV{TEST_ALWAYS_CALLER} 18:42
theorbtwo Hm, odd.
x86 w00t :P 18:44
x86 didnt realize there was a dedicated perl6 channel 18:45
im gonna go register #perl7 and #perl8
x86 grins
integral it's more Pugs than p6
theorbtwo Is there another p6?
qmole Pugs is more p6 than p6 :)
x86 hah
kungfuftr ah... home at last 18:53
shapr Anyone built up-to-the-minute pugs on debian/unstable with the 6.4 debs? 18:54
theorbtwo Yes. 19:00
shapr works fine for you?
theorbtwo Yep.
shapr ok, I'm going to check out the svn repo and try it again.
theorbtwo: Did I do something wrong? "svn checkout pugs && cd pugs && perl Makefile.PL && make -j3" 19:05
kungfuftr shapr: try `make test` by itself
theorbtwo That looks right to me, shapr. 19:06
shapr theorbtwo: What version do you get from dpkg -s ghc6 ?
Oh I think I found the problem. 19:08
I'm using ghc6.4 from the haskell-unsafe debian repository.
pasteling "theorbtwo" at 84.245.186.194 pasted "dpkg -s ghc6" (20 lines, 1.2K) at sial.org/pbot/8806 19:09
shapr ok, now I'm really confused.
theorbtwo: thank you 19:10
kungfuftr starts to port File::Path and its dependencies 19:15
Corion Hmmm. File::Find::Rule could be ported. Maybe even as File::Find :) 19:16
dada good nacht 19:17
theorbtwo Goodnight, dada.
kungfuftr hhhmmm...
Corion Hmm. What would be the basic building blocks of directory interaction ? opendir / readdir / closedir ? I'd wrap them into an iterator anyway, but Pugs needs these, right? 19:27
Who'd I ask for builtins ? 19:31
theorbtwo p6l. 19:32
Corion theorbtwo: Ah. Yet-another-mailing-list ... I'll wait it out then ;) 19:34
jabbot pugs - 1381 - Added test for unpacking hashes. 19:41
Corion How do I call a subroutine by name in Perl6 ? 19:43
PerlJam Corion: "Hey Foo(), come here!" ;) 19:44
crysflame heh 19:47
19:47 metaperl__ is now known as metaperl_
castaway PerlJam++ 20:01
Corion I currently drift in the direction of making opendir/readdir/closedir become "slurpdir" instead 20:20
(with the same list/scalar semantics as slurp() maybe)
... because I've never used rewinddir() myself
stevan hey Darren_Duncan 20:21
PerlJam Corion: what's needed is an IO::All-like interface IMHO
Darren_Duncan hey stevan
PerlJam The {open,read,close}dir interface can be kept for backward compatibility but be relegated to POSIX or something 20:22
Corion PerlJam: IO::All is the devils doing. It's convenient for nice hacks, but even less secure than open "|foo; rm -rf /"
I want a safe open function that will open a file exactly as specified, and not some behind-the-scenes-magic that'll wreak havoc. 20:23
But that's unrelated to the builtin that tells me about the contents of a directory :)
... the alternative I'm currently thinking about would be to return a "directory" object, just like open() returns a file object... 20:24
... but then, you never rewind/seek in the directory object, so the directory object would be a lazy list anyway
PerlJam Many things turn into lazy lists in perl6 20:25
stevan Corion: I think Apoc16 is going to deal with all that stuff
(no idea when that will be out though)
Corion stevan: I was about to ask that resp. make the comment that I'd have learned Haskell by that time :) 20:26
PerlJam Corion: I've heard that IO::All is influencing the design of some perl6 things at the cabal level.
stevan Corion: you will likely be teaching graduate level courses in Haskell by the time its out :)
Corion PerlJam: Ah well - if they reintroduce the all-singing, all-dancing open backdoor, so be it. It was a nice time with Perl6, but Perl5 has its merits then. 20:27
PerlJam stevan: not if Larry delegates the work somewhat :)
Corion open(my $fh, "<", $filename) is almost good. open(my $fh, "| foo") is too powerfull.
stevan PerlJam: looks like he is starting to do that with s29
Darren_Duncan anyone know what the "CPAN drinking game" is that Autrijus referred to? ... the name suggests something in my mind, which is take a certain number of drinks when you see something on cpan, but I haven't found anything on google to back it up 20:28
Corion IO::All can be hacked in afterwards, just like it was done in Perl5
Darren_Duncan: I think it involves alcohol
stevan Corion: would you prefer a all_hell_breaks_loose() builtin then?
Darren_Duncan yes, all drinking games do
Corion stevan: That's called eval ""
stevan Corion++ 20:29
Darren_Duncan you take a small drink when encountering something frequent, and many when something rare
the rules are usually made up to make fun of something
stevan Darren_Duncan: post a comment, ask him what it is
Darren_Duncan ok
in any event, he said he won it
stevan Darren_Duncan: "wining" a drinking game is open to interpretation 20:30
Darren_Duncan yes, its all a big joke really 20:31
theorbtwo I think you win if you're the last one concious.
Darren_Duncan yes
stevan Darren_Duncan: if you come to YAPC::NA I am sure we can get another game going 20:32
Darren_Duncan mainly, I wondered what the list of conditions was for this particular game, if it were written up already
metaperl Darren_Duncan, did you write Rosetta?
Darren_Duncan metaperl, yes
if you mean the database library
stevan theorbtwo: did you get any more info about YAPC::NA accomidations
metaperl what a huge piece of software!
Darren_Duncan yep, 2 years in the making and it still can't do more than open and close a connection end-to-end 20:33
theorbtwo Stevan, haven't asked.
metaperl you seem to have a lot of obligations for your code to be database and web-server independant
Darren_Duncan I like to design for the long term
metaperl you're Canadian right? 20:34
20:35 metaperl__ is now known as metaperl_
Darren_Duncan I am, yes 20:35
stevan Darren_Duncan: I read that first as "I like to design for a long time" :) 20:36
Darren_Duncan did you hear me say it here?
that is a side effect
metaperl CGI-MultiValuedHash is pretty fresh
Darren_Duncan my first 5-8 releases of Rosetta, in 2003, had no code, just documentation 20:37
what does 'fresh' mean in this context? 20:38
do you mean 'it is different' or it was recently updated?
metaperl fresh means nifty and well-worth knowing about
in this case
it is a valuable contribution 20:39
stevan metaperl is getting all hip-hop on the canadian :P
metaperl :)
Darren_Duncan a short description of the way I work is "over-engineered" 20:40
stevan over-engineering++ # me too
Darren_Duncan it takes a long time to get anything functional, but once it is, it should last a long time and be very adaptable
stevan queues some Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five for Darren_Duncan
Darren_Duncan that's my goal, to make stuff that is very useful
I see the whole Perl 6 / Parrot scene as being similar ... slow to become useful, but when it is, watch out! 20:42
metaperl lol@stevan
stevan Darren_Duncan: re: perl6/parrot, I agree, it will keep me from moving to (Ruby | Python | Java) 20:43
Darren_Duncan my saying 'slow' meant the process was started about 5 years ago, but only just now starting to be able to run perl 6
however, I consider it worth it for the quality of what is coming out
metaperl you left out C++
stevan metaperl: yuk!!! never
Darren_Duncan I agree
C++ is a has-been
metaperl Andrew J. Bromage likes C++
shapr But he likes Haskell better =)
metaperl there is a book on generic programming in C++ 20:44
stevan metaperl: who is Andrew J?
kungfuftr work++ # yay! unlimited safari account
Darren_Duncan away from comp for 10 mins ...
metaperl Java lacks generics .... AJB was a former Perl programmer...
stevan metaperl: I think Java is going to get generics soon
metaperl he won paper of the year at TPC2 for a CGI-based kiosk system
stevan C# 2.0 is getting them too
personally I like Ada style generics more than more type-based generics of C++, etc. 20:45
metaperl stevan are you on the extremeperl mailing list? 20:46
we are kicking up some serious dust on that list
stevan metaperl: i dont think so
metaperl you should join 20:47
shapr It's fun.
metaperl www.extremeperl.org
stevan metaperl: who is running the list? 20:51
metaperl I suppose Rob Nagler
stevan joined 20:57
Darren_Duncan ... back again 21:04
I had a quick look at the extremeperl group too ... 4 years its been around and 1/3 of the traffic was in just this month 21:08
anyway, since the list is normally low traffic, I signed to it also 21:10
shapr What do you guys think? Can you learn the lessons of Haskell without using Haskell? Can Perl alone teach you what there is to know about Haskell?
Corion shapr: No 21:11
Darren_Duncan what are the lessens of Haskell
stevan shapr: no
theorbtwo Perhaps /you/ can, but /I/ certianly can't.
stevan shapr: however I think you can learn about Haskell and then apply that back to perl
Corion shapr: At least the types are something quite foreign to Perl, and the Monads as well
shapr Yes, I think so too.
The Pugs people have changed my opinion about Perlers in general. 21:12
For the better =)
Darren_Duncan I don't consider myself an XP programmer, but I do constantly refactor my code
stevan shapr: I learned alot of ML, and later applied the knowledge to perl (because I have any ML work)
theorbtwo shapr, you're a lambadite?
shapr I'm not much of Perl user. I used it for two weeks once in ... 1999? 21:13
stevan theorbtwo: he also like *shhhhh* python
shapr Actually, in the last month, my opinion of Python has gone down much, and my opinion of Perl has gone up much.
Odin- Perl6 is something of a perl-lisp hybrid freak. :/
Corion shapr: Why has your opinion of Python gone down?
Odin- (I mean that in a kinda-good way, though.) 21:14
theorbtwo Oh, perl6 gets a lot more freakish then that.
shapr Because the man who designed Python, Guido van Rossum, thinks that all the Function Programming features of Python should be ripped out.
Odin- theorbtwo: Yeah, but I think that's a good description. ;)
Corion You can only appreciate (the features of) Lisp after you've reached a certain level of programming complexity
theorbtwo Yeah, Guido is very much of the There is Only One Way To Do It school of thought. 21:15
stevan shapr: lambda in Python is not so good, it could use reworking
Corion shapr: That's my impression too - I'm still programming in Python 1.6 and 2.2.
theorbtwo It has it's advantages, but it's not for me.
shapr I prefer multi-paradigm languages, I've considered Python to be one up to this point. If the FP features are removed, I think it will hurt the language as a whole.
Corion shapr: My feeling is that Guido is ripping it all out to sacrifice it for speed.
shapr stevan: I totally agree. I think the FP features in Python should be fixed, not removed.
stevan python list compressions are nice though (at least they were when I looked at them a while back)
ninereasons I like how much admiration of other languages has gone into the design of perl6
shapr stevan: they came from Haskell =) 21:16
stevan shapr: yup :)
shapr ninereasons: yes, me too.
The famous "What I don't like about Advocacy" perl post says something about that.
x86 im gonna build my own perl6 implementation and call it rotts
x86 chuckles
jdv79 admiration? interesting word to use. 21:17
ninereasons "envy" is the word that was used during design
admiration is a nicer word, and I think truer to the ... sentiment :-) 21:18
shapr I mentioned in some of the Python related IRC channels that I was unhappy about FP features being removed from Py3K, and most pythonistas said they didn't like the features anyway. Personally, I think that's because the FP stuff in Python doesn't work so well. 21:21
stevan shapr: lambda is just ackward to use especially without proper closures
jdv79 you don't think its just because most developers are used to OO these days? 21:22
Corion shapr: lambda is unwieldly, but that's no reason to remove it - it should be made _more_ usable instead. But Guido has lost much with me since he introduced types into Python and reduced the flexibility of objects
shapr Yeah, it is. But the FP features of Python got me started doing FP, and that got me into Haskell.
jdv79: It might be, I don't know. 21:23
Khisanth shapr: wouldn't python being multi paradigm be at odds with "there can be only one way to do it"? :)
jdv79 we hired two new programmers for our very small team at work and all they know is OO
shapr I do think the monadic abstraction is lot like the object abstraction, but instead of separate objects stuck to each other, you have a conveyor belt.
jdv79 well, its what they are proficient in at least 21:24
Corion jdv79: Then maybe you hired the wrong programmers ? :)
jdv79 could be
stevan jdv79: is all they know OO, or Java?
jdv79 stevan, :)
Corion ... if you work in a SmallTalk shop, you better know OO :)
jdv79 talk about hitting the nail right on the head! 21:25
stevan I have meet many a OO programmer who really just knows how to write bad Java, and knows little of what OO really is
jdv79 one does seem to understand OO pretty well whereas the other seems to be a "Java coder"
stevan java is becoming the language of choice at several schools, which is a bad thing IMO 21:26
shapr agrees
stevan not that Java is bad (its ugly at times, and really nice at times)
but I think it boxes you into a bad thought pattern
jdv79 C and C++ was used where i went to school
shapr COBOL and 360 asm where I went to school =) 21:27
stevan went to art school, mostly I used oils, and some watercolors :)
shapr Not that I ever got into the CS program.
hiya lightstep
stevan personally I like JCL, now those were the days :P
shapr grins 21:28
lightstep good evening
shapr stevan: I predict you are older than thirty years of age.
stevan shapr: LOL, 31 to be exact :)
shapr: I am a programming language fetishist 21:29
lightstep does make also make Makefile ?
shapr oh me too!
lightstep: perl Makefile.PL
stevan I have a really nice SNOBOL book on my bookshelf, right next to the IBM 360 ASM book
Corion Ah, so this is #over-30 on freenode :) 21:30
... except for autrijus, who is here to make us feel younger
stevan shapr: I have 3 kids though, which make me feel older than I am sometimes :)
shapr I'm over 30!
but I have no kids.
lightstep i think it's hard to get to contrinuting to a perl6 implementation effort in haskell is you're not a programming language fetishist
Khisanth kids make you age faster? :)
stevan shapr: my personal favorite esoteric language is Lucid, ever hear of it?
shapr Yup, dataflow language. 21:31
stevan lightstep++
shapr You'd like Haskell's Yampa.
And you'd like Arrows too.
stevan Khisanth: re: kids, they make you have to "act" older
shapr My favorite esoteric language of the moment is Epigram, heard of it?
Khisanth stevan: I was thinking of the stress 21:32
lightstep linux is on darcs but pugs is on svn? howcomes?
Darren_Duncan if you're going talking about ages, I'm 27 and single
stevan shapr: no
Corion single and kids are orthogonal :) 21:33
Darren_Duncan I do have younger siblings, however, and lots of friends have young children, so I'm still around them all the time
Corion lightstep: I thought Linux was using BitKeeper?
stevan Khisanth: its actually not so stressful, but my friday nights are a lot duller since kids
Darren_Duncan no children of my own, to clarify
stevan Darren_Duncan: that you know of ;) 21:34
lightstep Corion, it was #haskell's first april's fool joke
Corion lightstep: Aaah :)
Darren_Duncan stevan, unless someone stole my blood and mixed up a batch, definitely there are none
I'm not one of those people who sleeps around 21:35
Corion anyway - have a nice next 8 hours :) 21:36
stevan shapr: "Epigram is a dependently typed functional programming language" interesting ...
Corion (type inference)++
Darren_Duncan so here's a question ...
shapr stevan: You can describe code behaviour in the type system. It's wild.
Darren_Duncan If I make my big announcement about major code release tomorrow (SRT/Rosetta) Developer release #2, will people take it seriously?
shapr I doubt it. 21:37
Darren_Duncan does April Fools intrude on cpan?
Corion Darren_Duncan: Make it interesting, but keep it vague enough so that people keep wondering if it's for real or a joke :)
Darren_Duncan: Sure
Darren_Duncan: Don't release Acme::Rosetta and expect it to be taken seriously :)
Darren_Duncan I don't make Acme modules
lightstep netscape went open source on april first
Corion lightstep: And Parrot was conceived as an April Fools joke too 21:38
Darren_Duncan also, the rumors say Apple will anounce Tiger's release on april 1st
Corion I also heard that the next release will be called Pooh, after the success of tigger
Darren_Duncan yes, the origin of Parrot is a classic
maybe in 5 years, after they run out of cat names, and express unhappiness about the situation 21:39
shapr Fuzzbutt, MacOS MCMLXXXVIII 21:40
Darren_Duncan Corion, if I remember, I will make sure to keep my announcement vague, although that is the opposite of what I normally do so it may stand out 21:45
maybe if I make some outlandish claims, that'll do it 21:46
Khisanth no that would make it too fake :) 21:52
Darren_Duncan I know ... and this is the best yet ... 21:53
I'll just do it exactly the same way I would if it were some other day! 21:54
jdv79 i thought you didn't hang at rutgers any longer 22:05
22:26 beth__ is now known as beth
lightstep @seen 22:44
jabbot, seen nothingmuch
jabbot lightstep: nothingmuch was seen on Thu Mar 31 22:02:39 2005
lightstep jabbot, seen lightstep 22:45
jabbot lightstep: lightstep was seen on Fri Apr 1 06:44:56 2005
lightstep shapr, pugs/src/Posix.hs is the module 22:55
shapr So why the heck can't make find it?
it has -i. -isrc 22:56
lightstep wrong window 22:57
shapr Isn't make the correct command? 22:58
lightstep if MakeMaker creates incompatible make, that might be a problem. i have GNU Make 3.80
shapr same here, 3.80-9 22:59
Maybe my system is just totally broken? 23:03
lightstep maybe 23:04
Maybe Broken = Nothing | Just Broken
omg, summer just hit (making it 2am instead of 1am) 23:05
Limbic_Region US has another week to wait 23:06
theorbtw1 Another week? I thought just a few days... 23:07
Limbic_Region oh - did everyone read autrijus's journal entry indicating that there was a good chance he might be living with Leo for a couple weeks
Limbic_Region lost track of time
yes - this weekend
for those who aren't familiar with Leo's code churning output capabilities - they rival autrijus
that should be some fun and exciting times 23:08
shapr Wow
I look forward to that. With some trepidation, but mostly excitement.
crysflame blinks 23:11
oh, wow
that should be awesome
go autrijus
Khisanth Limbic_Region: that would probably be a strange time to be visiting Leo then :) 23:15
shapr yay! 23:17
I can build pugs!
23:21 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo

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