'-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6'
Set by rafl_ on 5 November 2005.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo, eric256: Well, bugger you. I challenge you to read texts written in Old English, and be able to understand the meaning without needing a dictionary or other assistance. :) 00:00
theorbtwo No, Juerd, it's not. They're from somewhere else too. They were just there a little longer.
Juerd theorbtwo: In other parts of the world, there are actually very large groups of people who have for many generations been in the same spot on earth.
theorbtwo Yes. They came from somewhere else too, though. They've just forgotten about it.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Doesn't change the fact that the prior inhabitants were forcibly removed. 00:01
Juerd theorbtwo: That is true.
Odin-LAP (Well, apart from the ones inadvertently killed by diseases, but we can't really blame anyone for that, can we?)
eric256 challenges Odin-LAP to find a nation founded somewhere they didn't force *somebody* out
Odin-LAP eric256: Hi. Iceland. 00:02
Juerd Odin-LAP: Religious people have a great tool for that. They have dieties to blame for everything.
theorbtwo Odin-LAP: The ones inadvertently killed? No. The ones purposefully killed: Yes, we can blame them for that, too.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Hmh?
eric256 Icelands never forced ANYONE out? i'm not prepared to rebuke that, but i doubt that it is true. it might have happened long long ago but i'm sure it happened
theorbtwo Germ theory may not have been figured out, but everybody knew that objects could carry desese, and some of those blankets sure as hell did. 00:03
Juerd theorbtwo: It was thought that *spirits* and *soals* could carry disease.
SamB Juerd: those people couldn't spell! 00:04
Juerd theorbtwo: That blankets could was for a very long time unknown and unthought of.
SamB: Neither can these. Your point?
SamB hmm, that exclamation point was out of place...
Juerd SamB: Your exclamation pointless point then? 00:05
Odin-LAP eric256: Iceland was uninhabited, when vikings came here. There is some indication that there were christian celts here ... but the evidence is unclear whether they had left already, or left after the vikings came. There is no indication, neither historically nor archeologically, that they were forced to leave. There is no evidence whatsoever of long-term inhabitation before that.
SamB hmm, lame attempt at humour?
Juerd Odin-LAP: Ooh, like Mars </american> :) 00:06
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: True. Those weren't the cases I was considering, though.
theorbtwo Odin: I find it more likely by far that they were forced to leave and there is no longer evidence available of it then that they weren't.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: ?
geoffb Returning to a (much) earlier tangent: IIRC, the proper single word for refusing to buy into the question is "mu", from Chinese. But I could easily be mistaken, it's been a while. 00:07
Juerd theorbtwo: How is your geography?
theorbtwo Not wonderful.
Juerd theorbtwo: How would people *get* there?
theorbtwo: It requires a certain level of sophistication
Odin-LAP Oh, and did you know that norsemen in Greenland didn't see any inuits for the first hundred years or so? :>
Juerd theorbtwo: And the Vikings were very probably the first... :)
eric256 Odin-LAP...yea some quick research seems to confirm that. but america is definitly not the only place where that happened. i wonder if you could pick a second. unfortunatly its time to leave. later
Odin-LAP And that when the vikings came to the north american continent, they were actually driven away by the natives? :> 00:08
Juerd theorbtwo: It's not a distance anyone could swim :)
theorbtwo Boats?
Odin-LAP eric256: I never meant to imply america was the only place.
Juerd theorbtwo: Not just any boats.
Odin-LAP Juerd: Oh, people did stop by earlier.
Juerd Odin-LAP: But not with the means of staying there for long.
theorbtwo There's pretty good evidence that nobody is native to anywhere but Africa. 00:09
eric256 Odin-LAP in such discussions its often implied. anyway we are just one of the most recent and probably best documented cases. not that anyone alive today played any part in it.
Odin-LAP Like I said, there's evidence to support the presence of celts, for sustained periods. Not communities, though. Apparently monestaries.
theorbtwo: That's a misrepresentation of the term native.
eric256: I'm not assigning any blame, either. :)
eric256 sticks aronud long enough to hear Odin-LAP representation of the word native
liz6 is swimming to bed 00:10
Juerd liz6: Don't drown :)
liz6 oOOooOoOoOOoOoOooOOOoOOO *zzzzz*
Juerd liz6: Heh... This gives new meanings to "je bed induiken"
Odin-LAP eric256: Well, if you're born there, grew up there, have lived most of your life there ... doesn't that mean you're native?
I like the australian name ... "aboriginal". 00:11
I don't think that has any worse negative association than does native. Although it is, as has been pointed out here, arbitrary.
eric256 that hardly fits "native americans" then doesn't it? the population of americans a forced out indians was in large part native too. ;)
alright. later
Odin-LAP Well, yes. I disagree with the terminology "native americans", but I'm in such a tiny minority that I think it's better to just shut up and conform than raise a noise. 00:12
It's not *that* important an issue... :>
(The real important issue is the continuing racism and discrimination. :) 00:13
theorbtwo It's not, but it seems closely related to the earlier discussion.
geoffb Odin-LAP, you're not in a tiny minority -- it's just that, most of the time, it does no one any good to argue the point.
Juerd theorbtwo: For the record, please do note the "" I put around native.
Juerd too is in this tiny minority, regardless of whether it actually is that. 00:14
Odin-LAP Heh. :p
Juerd The impossible is always in some way attractive. 00:15
theorbtwo I think English is such a successful language because it's so accepting of new words. Thus, new concepts get new words quickly in English, and other languages tend to use the English terms for them, but keep them English, rather then absorbing them into their linguistic identity.
This, at the very least, is my impression.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: That's utter bullshit.
Juerd refrains from saying what he thinks
geoffb Odin-LAP, not holding back . . . .
Odin-LAP Other languages make them theirs in just the same way as English does. That's what the whole process is about. 00:16
Juerd Though this should provide you with enough information to guess the underlying thought patterns.
theorbtwo Odin: What's the Icelandic term for a HTML file?
Odin-LAP That's why they are loanwords, dammit! If they weren't made conform to the language, they wouldn't even be that.
theorbtwo finds a randm multilingual manual. 00:17
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: "HTML skjal", usually. In Icelandic, you're quite likely picking the lousiest target for your point of any european language.
Juerd theorbtwo: That is unfair. Your question involves a deliberately unilingual name for a technology. It was consciously named, and an acronym even. 00:18
Odin-LAP We're worse than the french as regards constructing new words for most everything. :)
theorbtwo What does HTML stand for in Icelandic? Hyper-Text Markup Language, I'm betting.
Juerd DUH.
Odin-LAP O_o
theorbtwo Why does this document say "ist für Turbo" and "ist für Reset" insted of using the German terms for Turbo and Reset? 00:19
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: BIPM still stands for "Bureau International des Poids et Mesures" in English, you know.
Juerd theorbtwo: They're technical jargon, which happens to be English, because you guys INVENTED it. Or, well, often claim so :)
theorbtwo Yeah, we still get some of them.
Juerd: The concept of going faster is not a purticularly new one. 00:20
Juerd Technical jargon is often encouraged to not be translated.
To keep it easy to exchange development and understanding.
In a Dutch Perl article, I'd not translate array. 00:21
Or hash.
Or regex.
Or sub.
Or print.
theorbtwo Yes. And somehow, they generally seem to be in English.
Juerd Because that'd make it very hard to ever learn Perl, considering that the official documentation is in English.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: For political reasons, not linguistic. 00:22
Juerd theorbtwo: That has much to do with Larry's being of English tongue.
theorbtwo I think the same is true in Ruby.
I don't know much Ruby, I'm afraid, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Juerd theorbtwo: In Ruby, it is because of political reasons only.
But do note that there's a lot of japanese Ruby documentation. Even some that has no English counterpart.
theorbtwo I'm surprised. 00:23
Odin-LAP English is the lingua france of the modern age. Nobody is arguing otherwise. What's in dispute is the reason for that. :)
Juerd Still, computer technology makes for very bad examples.
Odin-LAP Oookay.
Muscle memory in action?
s/france/franca/; # BAH!
theorbtwo I think computer technology is a good example; it's a place where lots of terminology gets invented all the time. 00:24
Some of it makes it into the public conciousness, some doesn't.
Juerd theorbtwo: Computers made English THE MOST DOMINANT language. 00:25
Computers, and only computers, could do this. Politics can do a lot, but computers were very important.
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Computers distort the field heavily towards english.
Juerd Everything that has to do with computers is in Englesh.
English even
Odin-LAP By virtue of politics. ;)
Juerd (This is a huge generalization.)
Now, consider cars.
Parts have different names in different countries. Regardless of where the car came from, actually! 00:26
My Korean car is described using Dutch words.
And no, the original manual for the car is not English, it is Korean.
theorbtwo Juerd: But I'll bet there are a number of English terms for it, in the English alphebet, even, and not transliterated. 00:27
Juerd Is it a very old car, then? No, only 8 years.
theorbtwo Do you have a copy of the original manual?
Juerd theorbtwo: For which "it"?
theorbtwo I meant "in it", the original manual.
Juerd I don't have any copy. I've seen it in microprinting, though. 00:28
theorbtwo Nod.
Hm, I wonder if I have a manual handy for any nontechnical equipment with a non-latin-character-set language in the manual.
Juerd I can't read Korean. There are ways to transliterate (lossily), but acronyms are usually kept roman. There were surprisingly few roman characters on the pages.
theorbtwo Probably not; I don't generally keep them. 00:29
Juerd Fortunately, Hyundai does translate these things too.
To English, because it's the lingua franca, and thus because of politics.
theorbtwo s/thus/that/, BTW.
Juerd If you wish.
It's not what I meant to say, though. 00:30
Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Actually, no.
The meaning is different.
theorbtwo Hm. I know the meaning is different, but I though it was what Juerd meant to say.
Juerd I've been arguing that s/// should be non-mutating by default for quite some time now. This is another good reason.
theorbtwo I'm going to shut up now, though, because I told Jess I'd be up to bed soon for quite a while now. 00:31
Er, quite a while ago now.
Juerd And it's time I went home and into bed too.
theorbtwo Juerd: I'd agree with making s/// non-mutating in non-void context, but mutating in void context.
Uh, where are you?
Juerd theorbtwo: That's dangerous.
theorbtwo It's 1:30 in the morning there, no? 00:32
Juerd Everything should be non-mutating, even in void context
for @array { uc } shouldn't mutate.
It's 1:30 am here, yes.
I'm in my office.
theorbtwo Um, OK. 00:33
Have a nice trip, and sleep well.
Juerd Would there be non-ok places for me to be? :)
Just wondering...
Anyway, thanks and bye
Good night
ycheng autrijus: will you come to icos ? 00:39
theorbtwo OK, not so much.
apple-gunkies 00:41
apple-gunkies oops 00:41
Did I do that for everyone?
leo yes 00:42
apple-gunkies I was just trying to click on the likn
link
-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6 00:43
geoffb thanks for fixing it again, apple-gunkies 00:47
gantrixx Is there anyone here who lives in Arizona and is looking for a job? If so, message me privately. 01:45
dduncan gantrixx, does it need to be in Arizona, or is telecommute fine? 02:36
svnbot6 r7926 | Darren_Duncan++ | r773@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 02:31:48 -0800 04:52
r7926 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /docs/Copying which outlines my copyright related intentions for Rosetta
r7927 | Darren_Duncan++ | r784@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 20:46:39 -0800
r7927 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new /examples directory which contains 'inverter1' and 'inverter2' examples for Locale::KeyedText; the content of these 10 new files used to be POD in KeyedText.pm prior to its rewrite
r7928 | Darren_Duncan++ | r787@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-10 20:58:48 -0800 05:04
r7928 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : oops, forgot to remove trailing whitespace
dduncan hmm, it seems that I've found one way that svk behaves differently than svn ... it pushes the same update more than once if I'm inside a different subdir of the remote-mirror local copy 05:09
so now I'll try and actually execute the rewritten Locale::KeyedText using the new examples, and validate that it works 05:25
geoffb gantrixx, if you're still around, I have the same question that dduncan had . . . 05:28
gantrixx ok
msg me privately 05:29
eric256 hello 05:38
azuroth hey 05:42
eric256 anyone know if p6 has a nice easy way to make linked lists? i can't say i've used linked lists in p5 at all. but the code at www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=507605 made me wonder. that is bracket hell! ;) 05:44
azuroth I wonder if eric's coming back.. 05:55
?eval my $a = "5"; ~+$a 05:57
evalbot_7928 "5"
azuroth ?eval my $a = "5a"; ~+$a
evalbot_7928 "5"
azuroth cool..
Khisanth wonders why anyone would need to be making linked lists in Perl 06:11
geoffb Khisanth, doing a lot of splicing? 06:12
(In and out of really long lists, I mean)
Khisanth but what are the advantages over arrays? 06:14
geoffb splice() is O(1), not O(n)
(Assuming you already know the splice point) 06:15
Khisanth that is a strange answer
geoffb Of course, finding the splice point may have become O(n) instead of O(1), so there's a tradeoff. :-)
Khisanth, why is that strange? 06:16
Oh, also linked lists handle sparseness better than flat arrays 06:17
azuroth sparseness?
little memory?
dduncan are you wanting linked lists because you think it will perform faster, or just so it is easier to use?
geoffb azuroth, when only a few elements out of a large virtual array have non-empty values
azuroth ahh 06:18
dduncan if just the former, remember the old "don't guess but benchmark" rule
geoffb dduncan, I hope you're not asking me . . . I'm only answering Khisanth's theoretical question.
dduncan I'm asking whomever wants linked lists
geoffb ah, well OK then. :-) 06:19
dduncan and that person left the chat room ... oops
Khisanth geoffb: well in that particular post it looks like they only needed to be able to iterate through it, no need to randomly access things in the middle 06:21
geoffb Having just looked at the post, I've no clue why someone would do it that way, except because they were used to a language that didn't have arrays (or a decent idom for iterating over them) 06:22
azuroth maybe eric was just wondering because that way's so ugly?
geoffb azuroth, possibly 06:23
Khisanth that would be odd too, I mean not even the equivalent of for( i=0; i < size; i++ ) { }? :)
geoffb Khisanth, c-for is not my idea of a decent iteration idiom. ;-)
Khisanth that post doesn't look much better :P 06:24
geoffb Khisanth, oh, totally agreed. 06:25
perl -i.bak -pe 's/(level = ){/$1[{/; s/, next =>/},/; s/}+;$/}];/;' 06:27
seems a good start
azuroth that hurts my head 06:32
geoffb azuroth, :-)
azuroth plus I don't know what -i and -p mean. is -p like :p on regexes? 06:33
geoffb -i is output directly back to the same named file you input, with an option to make a backup with a specified extension. 06:35
-p means "iterate over every line in input file, printing the result of whatever changes you've made to each line"
azuroth ohh. cool 06:36
geoffb in other words, its a while { ....; print } loop
-n is the same, without the implied print
azuroth how sneaky 06:37
geoffb gratuitous self-plug: www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/10/14/file_editing.html
azuroth ahh, I get it now. I was getting confused with perl 6 closures slightly ;-p 06:40
azuroth reads 06:41
gaal ooh! the parser change *did* work, but the test was wrong. 07:27
geoffb :-) 07:28
gaal grrr, no, actually, not exactly \-: 07:29
geoffb is exhausted, and the pugs build will take a while, so I'm off to bed. Night all.
gaal ?eval say "cond true" if "don't matter" ~~ { say "in cond" }
evalbot_7928 in cond cond true bool::true
gaal ?eval say "cond true" if "don't matter" ~~ { say "in cond"; bool::false }
evalbot_7928 in cond undef
gaal this is correct behavior
but the when { } { } still doesn't work 07:30
night geoffb
azuroth lisppaste3? 07:31
hmm. I was hoping it would tell me about itself
buu lisppaste3: LIVE. 07:32
gaal does the order of rules matter in parsec? 07:35
i mean of haskell functions in the file.
is there a way to get a trace of the whole parse? 07:36
i'll ask #haskell :-)
azuroth hehehe
clkao dduncan: svk pushes same update more than once? 08:55
dduncan hello 08:56
well, something weird seems to have happened ... just a minute ...
clkao, look at the Pugs commit log revs 7920 and 7926 ... the same message appears twice, but only the first one should appear 08:57
quickie url is rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/.../pugs/log/ 08:58
clkao what were you doing and where in checkout? goit command history? 08:59
dduncan I have my svk set up with the single nameless repository, one subfolder to mirror remote pugs, one for local pugs
I typically do all control within my pugs working dir, which is the checked out local svk subfolder 09:00
to update, I say 'svk pull', which brings things all the way through like svn up did
to commit, I first svk-commit, then svk-push 09:01
now I did something else which may be unusual, but was what I said so far normal enough?
how I often work is that ... 09:02
clkao *nod*
dduncan what is mirrored and checked out is all of pugs
quite often my cwd is /ext/Rosetta-Incubator ...
sometimes I invoke svk while the cwd is that, and other times I invoke svk when my cwd is the pugs root, which that is a subfolder of 09:03
from my svn experience, I assumed that it didn't matter and the right thing would happen as long as I was in any subdir of the pugs checkout folder 09:04
clkao ya, you branch the whole tree, right?
dduncan yes
I do it roughly like this ...
svk mirror //pugs_try1/mirror http... 09:05
svk cp //pugs_try1/local //pugs_try1/mirror
svk sync ...
svk checkout //pugs_try1/local pugs
and in that checkout folder I mainly just do pull, push, and commit 09:06
or I do those things in subdirs of the checkout folder
I may have a few syntax errors in what I said here
clkao *nod* but the flow is alright. so you usually push and pull inside ext/rosetta?
dduncan sometimes 09:07
clkao and doing what on toplevel resulted in weird behaviour?
dduncan I normally pull inside the pugs root folder, to get everyone's changes, and sometimes push there
sometimes I push in Rosetta if thats where all my changes are
I did notice ...
that sometimes svk reports a whole bunch of auto-merges going on, or names files with the 'g' flag on the left column, when I push or pull, when I wouldn't expect that to happen 09:08
said merges were between my local and mirror, on files that either I and no one else edited, or other people and not I
the 'g' I think appeared just naming the files in the commit that appeared on pugs main server twice 09:09
this seemed unusual, so I thought perhaps my cwd at the time of the push/pull may have been a factor ...
unless there's a better solution, I'm thinking to just explicitly cwd to the pugs root checkout before doing any push/pull so that doesn't happen 09:10
clkao 'g' during push or pull? or both? 09:11
dduncan I'm having trouble remembering, but I think it was either once on both or once on the pull 09:12
I think it occurred when I pushed when inside the ext subdir, and later pulled when in the main dir
clkao ok, i will take a look at pugs repository later
there should be trace 09:13
dduncan on a separate note ...
do you remember my saying a few days ago that svk spat out warnings from Class::Autouse on every invocation?
clkao ya. it seems to have something to do with c::autouse version and svn version iirc. 09:14
dduncan I tracked this down to apparently being a bug in perl 5.8.1, which no longer exists in version 5.8.7
clkao really?
but i thought people still see that on macosx perl 587
dduncan the warning is ...
Useless use of a constant in void context at /usr/local/svk-1.05/perl/Class/Autouse.pm line 79 ... and other lines
but looking at that source file showed that the constant's use was not a void context 09:15
in my interpretation ...
for example, line 79 says : _debug(\@_, 1) if DEBUG 09:16
that doesn't look like a void context, since the constant DEBUG is being used in an if-statement 09:17
as a test, I tried getting the same Autouse from CPAN and making it by itself ... doing this under the system perl 5.8.1 spat out the same warnings, though fewer of them ... making it under my custom perl 5.8.7 did not display any warnings 09:18
this was my first determination that it was a bug in perl
also, yesterday I looked at the perldeltas for the 5.8 series, and around 5.8.5 it said it removed some warnings which seemed relevant 09:19
so now, I tried to make use of this fact, and tried customizing the svkbuild config file to use my custom perl rather than the normal one, but some of the bundled perl modules threw a fit, I think due to /usr/bin/perl being hardcoded in some places, so I had no choice but to install svk against the system perl and put up with the warnings 09:20
clkao, so that's my report re svk for today 09:21
r0nny yo 09:25
dduncan yo jo
renormalist rafl? 09:49
azuroth whoa. fluxbox is weird 10:22
buu ratpoison, ratpoison!
azuroth haha. yeah, I'll give that a go 10:23
buu Good!
azuroth flux looks like I could get used to, though, hopefully
buu Hrm
File system has 6103459 clusters but only space for 6102014 FAT entries.
Anyone ever seen tha?
Guess not =[ 10:24
And you were my last hope.
azuroth :x
that's interesting; alt tab only cycles through unminimised windows 10:30
buu You shall experience the joy of the poison
azuroth I will in a minute
I'll bet not for long though
buu It's awesome 10:32
You never have to touch the mouse to manipulate windows.
No more reaching over.
azuroth I wonder what "exec," "execcommand," and "execute" do differently
buu Where?
azuroth in fluxkeys 10:33
I'm trying to make ctrl+alt+T open a terminal 10:34
buu Pssh 10:35
That's what you get for not using a real wm
azuroth how cruel. I changed the "style" to a bad one, and now I can't open the styles menu for some reason 10:40
svnbot6 r7929 | kane++ | * add a general flow and more explenation 11:46
rafl renormalist: Yes?
r0nny re 12:37
azuroth help me with ratpoison! 13:35
r0nny azuroth: its like screen 13:39
azuroth I can't figure out how to use the resize thingy 13:40
I've managed to get a browser open now though, so yay 13:41
cognominal_ ?eval my @a = ( "a") ; "a" ~~ rx| @a | 14:07
evalbot_7929 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w:: @a *** Error: end of file Match.new( ok => bool::false, from => 0, to => 0, str => "", sub_pos => (), sub_named => {} )
r0nny azuroth: âfaik ratpoison has no resize 14:24
azuroth: each windows is fullscreen
svnbot6 r7930 | kane++ | * write out the alternatives section 14:41
r7930 | kane++ | * note that we've got that working now in the prototype
14:55 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region 15:02 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region
gaal hello! polling again for Parsec folks. any about? 15:06
PerlJam I wish there were more Parsec folks about. With sufficient mass, they could implement p6 rules :) 15:11
SamB PerlJam: are you kidding? we haven't even implemented ParserT yet! 15:12
15:19 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region
Limbic_Region seen autrijus 15:19
jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 1 days 21 hours 19 minutes 34 seconds ago
kolibrie wants to learn Parsec, maybe 16:33
xinming ?eval role A { method test { "$?CLASS" } }; class B does A { }; B.new.test; 16:51
evalbot_7930 "A"
xinming Is this right?
?eval role A { method test { ::?CLASS } }; class B does A { }; B.new.test; 16:54
evalbot_7930 \::A
gaal $?CLASS is compiletime, no? so i think it is right. 16:56
xinming gaal: hmm, I don't agree with that. :-/ 16:58
gaal: if so, which variable will be used for current class name? 17:00
gaal $*CLASS maybe? I'm not sure about OOP in p6 at all; this is by analogy with other things. 17:03
Juerd $?CLASS 17:05
xinming Juerd: So, This might be a bug.
Juerd Why? 17:06
xinming Juerd: As, role A is used for code reuse, and class is used for instance management, But here, what the example above shown is that $?CLASS should be the same as "B". :-/ 17:07
hmm,
xinming isn't so sure about this...
Juerd I think you're right. 17:08
Juerd is labeling 3.5" diskettes again. 17:09
It feels like I went 10 years back in time.
Juerd remembers the first time he did some work for a company. 17:10
They couldn't pay me in cash, but I was very, very happy with the 10 boxes of diskettes.
I had a few hundred in use. 17:11
xinming I still remember what I did for my first job is posting new articles. :-P
Juerd I was 13, and couldn't really afford all the disks I needed to store everything I wanted to store.
It was hard to throw the diskettes away after they had been magnetized by a misplaced magnet. 17:12
Sure, I hadn't used any of the disks in over a year, but it was painful anyhow :)
Now, many years later again, I actually had to buy a box... To install Windows Server 2003. 17:13
The morons still want their SCSI drivers on old fashioned magdisks.
liz6 you mean the tinkering charlatans? 17:16
Juerd Other prutsers, but yes :)
kolibrie xinming: $?CLASS is set at compile time, but is lexically scoped, so I think you are right - should be B
xinming Juerd: hmm, for installing, Windows, You'd better to buy a Floppy Drive. though, you can make an iso yourself with the needed Controller driver built in, But it is really a pain while you try this, 17:17
xinming ever wasted 5 CD-Rs,
Juerd I know, I know...
It's exactly why I still put old fashioned disk drives in Windows boxes.
xinming That's why I have to choose Linux for my Sata 200G disk. :-/
Juerd Haha 17:18
xinming Ext3 isn't so stable in some situation.
Juerd I think Microsoft has some evil contracts with fdd manufacturers.
This is the only reason they still produce these things :)
Then don't pick ext3. 17:19
You have a dozen filesystems to choose a good one from.
If ext3 doesn't fit your need, choose another.
kolibrie thought he had a working 5 1/4" floppy drive, but seems to spin forever now, instead of reading the disk
Juerd I still have 5.25" floppies in a shrink wrapped box.
liz6 remembers that as a feature of FastBack
Juerd No drive for them, though :)
xinming Juerd: HDD installation for Xp is also a big pain, I ever met one don't know to run smartdrv before installation, the copy progress takes over 2 hours. 17:20
Juerd I have noticed by the way that diskettes nowadays are always preformatted. :(
smartdrv? 17:21
Huh?
That kind of stuff is done automagically nowadays, isn't it?
I install XP once every few weeks. Always takes less than 45 minutes.
xinming Juerd: hmm, not too bad in my opinion, they use dm to partition the disk, and dm won't check for sectors.
Juerd (Then finding and installing all drivers and software, and then configuring it, is what takes the rest of the day...)
xinming Juerd: hmm, Try hard disk installation, go into DOS, and run winnt :-) 17:22
kolibrie (debian)++
Juerd debian++
ubuntu++ too
xinming (debian)+++++++++
Juerd I'm using kubuntu 5.10 on my laptop
It's the nicest desktop distro I've experienced so far. 17:23
xinming For reinstallation of Debian, It will only take less than 3 hours after the whole thing configured.
Juerd: hmm, I prefer pure Debian, :-P
Juerd 3 hours?
xinming: For non-workstations, so do I.
xinming Juerd: hmm, need to download. :-)
Juerd Workstations should work, not be pure. Otherwise they'd be purestations :)
xinming: By the way. Pure debian: juerd.nl/debianraid 17:24
It's pure if you use debootstrap :) 17:25
I don't want a menu driven installer :)
xinming And now every time I use Windows 98, And I still feeling odd for that I can afford the blue screen...
Juerd (Takes too long)
xinming Juerd: I make a system tar.ball after I installed debian, So, I just need to go into another small Linux tar xf into the spcified partition, :-) 17:27
Why I prefer Linux is because I can use console to come here, and access the Internet while the system is downloading stuff. 17:28
hmm, I think I should say debian. :-) install red hat 7.3 is also a pain compared with debian. 17:29
?eval class A is B { method f {1} }; class B { method g { ./f } }; A.g; 17:31
evalbot_7930 1
xinming what does ./f mean here?
hmm, a bit confused about the '/'
kolibrie xinming: ./f was a one-time syntax for $?SELF.f, or something like that 17:32
died in p6l after a bitter war
xinming but still alive in pugs. 17:33
kolibrie :)
svnbot6 r7931 | yiyihu++ | role A { method test { "$?CLASS" }}; class B does A { }; B.new.test should return the "CURRENT" Class name, 17:36
r7931 | yiyihu++ | add the test.
Juerd xinming: In short: ./method is short for self.method 17:37
self is probably not yet implemented in pugs, but I'm not sure.
xinming: Re the tarball: that'll give you an out of date base system in a few years, and that has tiny but important disadvantages 17:38
xinming ?eval class A { method t { $?SELF }; A.new.t; 17:39
evalbot_7930 Can't exec "./pugs": Permission denied at examples/network/evalbot//evalhelper.p5 line 46.
xinming oops 17:40
Juerd: But debian can seamlessly upgrade to the newest version, 17:41
?eval class A { method t { $?SELF }; A.new.t;
evalbot_7931 Error: unexpected end of input expecting end of input, ";", statements or "}"
xinming ?eval class A { method t { "$?SELF" }; A.new.t;
evalbot_7931 Error: unexpected end of input expecting end of input, ";", statements or "}"
xinming ?eval class A { method t { "$?SELF" }}; A.new.t;
evalbot_7931 "<obj:A>"
Juerd xinming: It doesn't always update everything.
xinming: There's always some level of necessary backwards compatibility. 17:42
17:42 stevan__ is now known as stevan
kolibrie Juerd: any hints you can give me so my irssi can notify me of things when I'm on a different screen? 17:48
kolibrie just read Juerd's irrsi page
spinclad (ooh, where?) 17:49
kolibrie juerd.nl/site.plp/irssi
spinclad thx
xinming Juerd: your handsome. :-P 18:13
Juerd xinming: Really? Thanks :) 18:21
kolibrie: /hilight
kolibrie Juerd: can it give me some visual cue if I'm on a different screen (or how can I set up /hilight -> bell -> visual bell), maybe it's a screen question 18:37
Juerd kolibrie: Set the actcolor 18:49
kolibrie: That changes the colour of the window number in the [Act: ] part of the status bar. 18:50
kolibrie: Or do you mean screen(1) windows?
kolibrie: If so, write a Perl script to match incoming lines and echo a \a 18:51
kolibrie Juerd: actcolor looks very nice, didn't know about that
Juerd: and yes, I always run under screen(1) 18:52
Juerd What do you mean by "a different screen"?
I'm sure you mean window, not screen, but which window? Screen's window, or irssi's window?
kolibrie screen's window
Juerd Then you will need a real bell 18:53
Which irssi doesn't do
kolibrie so, I'd need something that echos an \a if a hilight matched, which would sound the bell, which screen would capture and turn into a visual bell? 18:54
Juerd kolibrie: Well, it doesn't have to be a visual bell 20:19
kolibrie: Screen warns in the form of "21:08 < Gerrit> hoi Anakinzero 20:20
21:10 -!- Anakinzero [~Anakinzer@ip54566d41.speed.planet.nl] has joined #autsider
Fuck
I hate broken copy/paste.
Okay, I'll be non-lazy and type it.
kolibrie: Screen warns in the form of "Bell in window 0"
kolibrie Juerd: I see those sometimes, but miss them often 20:21
Juerd It keeps them visible for only a short while.
I don't know if that's configurable
kolibrie right now, I just have to check my irssi window from time-to-time, if I remember. I'd just like something that can get my attention, if I want to give it 20:22
Juerd I use a separate terminal for irssi :) 20:23
So I don't have that problem
I use screen anyway, but this screen primarily for irsi.
kolibrie then you just poke that terminal out at the bottom, so you can see the [Act ] bar? 20:24
Juerd No, my terminals are all in the same Konsole window 20:25
It has a tab bar.
kolibrie does it show other tab activity somehow?
Juerd I shift between terminals a lot (shift-cursorleft and shift-cursorright), so I automatically see the irssi window from time to time.
It can, but I don't use that feature
Computers get too annoying when they constantly grab your attention. 20:26
kolibrie that is true
wolverian hooray, my new thinkpad! 20:41
Corion I blamed GHC 6.2 in perlmonks.org/?node_id=507854 for the compilation errors. Is that correct? 20:50
Juerd wolverian: Congratulations! 20:56
wolverian: Model?
wolverian Juerd, R51 20:58
Juerd Good :) 21:00
wolverian it's not a graphics monster, but I don't need one :)
Juerd Uhhuh 21:01
integral Corion: you're right about pugs requiring 6.4.1 at least 21:04
Corion Cool :) Have a nice localtime all 21:14
svnbot6 r7932 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - updated to new p6 syntax. 21:26
r7932 | fglock++ | new bug - it seems like some methods can't be called from outside the Class - see output of 'pugs -Ilib t/array-lazy.t'
liz6 seen autrijus 21:27
jabbot liz6: autrijus was seen 2 days 3 hours 26 minutes 45 seconds ago
masak ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)) 21:39
evalbot_7932 6
masak that's not what my pugs said... 21:40
it said ((((6 | 7) & (7 | 8)) | ((8 | 9) & (9 | 10))) & (((8 | 9) & (9 | 10)) | ((10 | 11) & (11 | 12))))
'course, i prefer 6... :)
wolverian evalbot doesn't understand junctions very well yet.
masak wolverian: oh. i thought evalbot was pugs, more or less 21:41
wolverian masak, it is, just somewhat broken. 21:42
masak ok
in this particular case, i have all sympathy for evalbot. i cannot parse the above mega-junction either 21:43
wolverian well, it's correct. :) 21:44
masak i don't doubt it :) 21:45
it's just that i cannot visualize it very well
one-level junctions are ok
but not deeper ones
eric256 ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)).perl 21:46
evalbot_7932 1.0
eric256 ?eval ((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8))
evalbot_7932 6
eric256 ?eval 1|2
evalbot_7932 1
eric256 ?eval (1|2).perl
evalbot_7932 "(1 | 2)"
wolverian I think he just picks the first element in the junction
wow, that worked
eric256 "he" doesn't do anything
just (eval " ").perl
in a perfect world ;)
?eval (((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8))).perl 21:47
evalbot_7932 "((((6 | 7) & (7 | 8)) | ((8 | 9) & (9 | 10))) & \n (((8 | 9) & (9 | 10)) | ((10 | 11) & (11 | 12))))"
eric256 ?eval ~(((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
evalbot_7932 "10"
eric256 ?eval ~(((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
evalbot_7932 "10"
eric256 ?eval (((1&2)|(3&4)) + ((5|6)&(7|8)))
evalbot_7932 6
eric256 i have no idea why its getting six. lol
masak maybe it numifies the string representation of the junction :) 21:48
theorbtw1 It's the first element.
masak yes, but why? 21:49
Juerd 22:46 < wolverian> I think he just picks the first element in the junction 21:53
wolverian: Conceptually, there is no first element.
wolverian yeah. 21:54
Juerd ?eval (1&2)|(3&4) 21:55
evalbot_7932 1
Juerd ?eval (99&2)|(3&4)
evalbot_7932 2
Juerd ?eval (99&3)|(3&4) 21:56
evalbot_7932 3
Juerd ?eval (99&4)|(3&4)
evalbot_7932 3
Juerd It picks the least element.
masak weird
Juerd Testing things using sequential numbers isn't really a good idea.
wolverian Juerd, do you know if the ibm active protection functions in linux? 22:02
22:12 Gruber is now known as Grrrr
Juerd wolverian: Since 2.6.14; I haven't tried it yet. 22:32
cognominal_ Juerd, I have a folder with almost 100 papers named in the format: "year -- authors -- paper title" like 2 1992 -- Phikip Wadler -- The essence of functional programming.ps 23:51
are you interested do get them in a public place in feather? 23:52
they are about compilation, function programming, type theory. subject that will probably matters to perl6 people 23:53

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