-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by apple-gunkies on 11 November 2005.
svnbot6 r8053 | Darren_Duncan++ | r1069@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-12-02 16:52:55 -0800 00:57
r8053 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated Overview.pod and TODO.pod following Bricolage developers' feedback
clkao awzzz 00:58
justatheory Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!
stevan_ luqui: ping/pong/whatever 02:33
luqui stevan_, gnop 03:32
stevan_ hey luqui
luqui so, in case you didn't see, I did a 180 on the type system 03:33
stevan_ yup, I saw :)
luqui and now it's going to depend a lot more on the metamodel...
stevan_ yup
luqui so, how's that going
stevan_ LOL
03:33 stevan_ is now known as stevan
luqui fails to see what's funny 03:34
stevan luqui: the metamodel is stalled looking for a parser to connect with
luqui hmm?
stevan has written at least 3 versions of the metamodel by now
and I am exploring the idea of one in PIR right now
luqui: the most recent metamodel work is in the Perl6-ObjectSpace,.. but I dont think that is what you want 03:35
luqui I'm really just looking for theoretical ideas
stevan ah
get a copy of "The Art of the MetaObject Protocol"
that along with the Smalltalk "Brown Book" 03:36
luqui reads the descriptions of said books
stevan those were my guides
what specific theoretical ideas are you looking for though
luqui well, I dunno, seeing as how they're ideas and if I had them then I wouldn't need to look for them 03:37
er... something
stevan ok
luqui basically I'm looking for some ground to stand on somewhere 03:38
stevan ok
well the core building blocks of the metamodel are an "instance" type, a "method" type and an "attribute" type
luqui what is this "brown book"? 03:39
stevan goes and looks for a link
it is called "Smalltalk 80 : The Language "
www.amazon.com/gp/product/020113688...p;v=glance
its a classic ;) 03:40
so, once you have this "instance" type,.. you make an instance named Class
this is the class Class
then some bootstrapping handwaving
luqui okay 03:41
stevan then you create the class Object
then set the superclass of Class to Object
(this is your object model cycle)
because Object is an instance of Class, and Class is a subclass of Object 03:42
this is the core of the metamodel IMO
luqui hm, okay
stevan with this foundation, you can easily build a highly reflective object model along the lines of CLOS 03:43
you can ditch some of the early steps, and just make classes "exist"
but then you end up with Java/C#-ish classes
and you have to build your reflection layer on top of it 03:44
luqui okay, that should be pretty easy to reason about in a type system.
(except the object/class cycle might give set theorist some heartburn, but whatever)
stevan there is probably a good amount of work already done re: thing kind of model
oh wait,... one other book for you 03:45
luqui bascially, I'm thinking that we expose AST to the language level
and let you annotate it with whatever kind of data you like
during this annotation you're allowed to die, of course. this is where typechecking can occur.
stevan www.amazon.com/gp/product/020143305...p;v=glance
luqui the hard part about this is how to actually make use of the types other than yelling at the user
stevan "Putting MetaClasses to Work" ,... this is the one which inspired Guido to use C3 03:46
luqui so I want a way to communicate certain guarantees back to the runtime
stevan so it is runtime type checking?
luqui uh, not really
stevan or are we exploiting that "run at compile time" bit here
luqui I mean, you could insert runtime checks, but the idea is that this happens at compile time
yeah, definitely exploting that... a lot 03:47
stevan like BEGIN phase runtime?
luqui right
stevan ok
luqui (and typechecking of the BEGIN block would happen at the BEGIN's BEGIN time)
stevan so one trick about the metamodel
it has to be built on something
(this is what Perl6-ObjectSpace investigates)
that something needs to exist prior to the metamodel existing 03:48
luqui $150!!??
stevan native types basically
what is $150?
luqui that book
stevan eak
I got it for like $1 off ebay 03:49
luqui ahh, that's a good iea
stevan yeah ,.. ebay is great for odd computer books
luqui okay, built on something... 03:50
stevan oh "Putting MetaClasses to Work" has lots of theory "stuff" in it (aka - skawiggly things I dont understand) 03:51
yes,.. the P6-ObjectSpace attempts to define the smallest set of "thing" a "backend" would need to provide in order to support the metamodel 03:52
luqui hmm
stevan so you have really basic int, string, bit, list, hash, closure, etc
luqui I see it as the type system's job to let the backend know when it can use a larger set of "things"
stevan I dont understand that comment 03:53
luqui (oh, also when it can unbox and whatnot)
well we have a minimal set of necessary support
stevan these 'things' are not exposed at user level
they are all deep inside the runtime
luqui sure
stevan however, I was pondering ways to expose them to the runtime, but nothing final yet
luqui that necessary support might be slow, if the runtime has better support for some native perl 6 concepts, it should be able to use those 03:54
stevan anyway,.. in P6-ObjectSpace there is a metamodel which is composed of nothing more than those types, and message sends
luqui but then again, I guess that's more of the PIL->Native compiler's job than the type system's
cool 03:55
stevan well, that was partially what I wanted to do with the "runtime thing" to "userland thing" bridge
the basic idea was to have some kind of core primative "thing" which looks suspicously like a Role 03:56
then provide a bridge from that "thing" to a Role in the post-metamodel bootstrap world
the large idea was that if we could define all "userland" access this way, then implementation of those underlying things is irrelevant 03:57
and we could then allow each backend to optimize according to the specific features it had
luqui hmmm.. just trying to grok this. on what level is this "thing" "core primitive" 03:58
stevan but this is all still in my head,.. and I am not sure it will work anyway,.. so probably best to ignore all that
stevan ponders drawing a picture
core primatives | metamodel primatives | metamodel | userland
those are the 4 steps
luqui okay 03:59
stevan although we should probably insert a "container & boxed types" item in between "metamodel" and "userland"
since the container and boxed types should be implemented with the metamdoel
so this primative thing which looks like a role,.. lets call it a "sig" 04:00
luqui mmkay
stevan this "sig" lives in the "core primatives" level
a sig is much like a Java interface
(this is all ripped off from Standard ML's module system) 04:01
luqui hmmm
stevan you can also have some kind of implementation attached to the sig
stevan still hasn't worked all this out for real,.. so I am gonna handwave some 04:02
every "thing" defined prior to the end of the "metamodel" step will have a sig
then post metamodel bootstrap,.. we make a Role which corresponds to each sig in the system 04:03
and whalla we have Roles for all our primative "things"
stevan waves his hands madly 04:04
luqui wonders what a sig looks like at a low level
stevan sig Bit { method to_num (Bit $self:) returns Num; method to_str (Bit $self:) returns Str; } 04:05
something like that
luqui er, I mean, from the other end of the low level
how would the runtime we're implementing on see it 04:06
stevan although the real thing woul be more like: $Bit = sig->new(name => Bit); $Big->add_method(....)
stevan waves his hands madly again
the runtime would probably not use it that much
although the ideal is that we do something like ML's Functors 04:07
luqui but those are strongly typed IIRC
stevan and we just program to the interfaces
luqui and that's about the only interesting thing about them
stevan well, they are polymorphic modules basically
so we can program to the Bit interface
and the underly impl is irrelevant 04:08
luqui but polymorphic over what?
stevan wonders what should be under the polymorphism?
oh,..
over the other sigs
cyclical systems rock :)
luqui so you give it a sig, and it gives you back a module
stevan a sig and a impl 04:09
and it gives you back a "type"
you use the type
luqui er
stevan yeah I know
luqui yeah... see, I'm trying not to have types down there
stevan waves his hands madly once more
luqui they must be getting tired
stevan they arent really types
there is little value in having sigs for very primative things like "bit" 04:10
luqui how come?
stevan except that with my sig->to->Role idea,.. you get role Bit {} for free
luqui (what case supposed to be significant there?)
s/what/was/
stevan well they are only used inside the runtime,...
luqui where by "free" you mean "implemented elsewhere" 04:11
instead of defining role Bit you just define sig Bit
and it's about the same either way ;-)
stevan no, I mean the role Bit is just a box around the core primative "bit"
well you can't use roles below the "metamodel" layer 04:12
and you need to use bits in those lower levels
luqui I'm still not seeing what, er, role sigs play
stevan lets ignore it for now,.. I am smoking too much crack 04:13
luqui is the idea that the metamodel defines sigs, and the runtime implements them?
stevan no
sigs are a core runtime thing (below the metamodel layer)
the metamodel uses them
because the metamodel methods will return core runtime "things" 04:14
luqui isn't sure how you can really define a "core runtime thing", seeing as we are trying to target existing runtimes
i.e. that part isn't up to you
stevan true, but if they want my metamodel.. I need to have some basic building blocks
luqui we're probably in vocabulary hell here
stevan yeah thats surely a problem too
oh wait,.. i think i see one issue 04:15
backend != runtime
parrot != runtime
luqui backend is deeper than runtime?
stevan parrot == backend
yes, think of parrot as the "platform"
luqui but runtime would be implemented in PIR, not perl, right? 04:16
stevan or in the case of Perl6-ObjectSpace,.. the "platform" is p5
I think some of the runtime will be in PIR, and other parts in perl
preludes and such 04:17
the metamodel can be part of the prelude actually
if the right 'things' are there
04:20 gugod_ is now known as gugod
luqui alright. let me sleep on this. I'll have a peek at Perl6-ObjectSpace 04:20
stevan good idea :)
I think autrijus should be in on this converstation too 04:21
he and I discussed a lot of this
luqui Well, I'll be back in about a week.
stevan and I am sure he has some of the insight you are looking for that I dont have
luqui I really have some big projects to do for school and I'm procrastinating by thinking about htis
this
stevan ok,.. $work is busy for me too, so my tuits are very limited 04:22
P6-ObjectSpace is probably a good place to start
so enjoy :)
and get those books if you can
they are great
luqui alrighty
stevan (+ (+ CLOS)) 04:23
luqui heh
stevan goes off to watch some TV &
later
luqui sayonara
meppl gute nacht 04:47
04:59 evalbot_8052 is now known as evalbot_8053
luqui ?eval Inf+1 05:09
evalbot_8053 Inf
luqui ?eval Inf/Inf
evalbot_8053 NaN
luqui ?eval Inf-Inf
evalbot_8053 NaN
luqui ?eval 1/0 05:10
evalbot_8053 Error: Illegal division by zero
devin ?eval Inf*0
evalbot_8053 NaN
luqui seems to be correct
under the assumption that it treats infinity as a number in the first place
devin see t/operators/arith.t around line 300 05:13
i suppose there is an ieee or posix standard pugs should follow here 05:14
luqui ?eval 1**Inf 05:15
evalbot_8053 1.0
luqui I disagree
(I agree with the POSIX thing; I disagree with the result of that eval)
?eval (-1)**Inf 05:18
evalbot_8053 1.0
luqui ?eval (-2)**Inf
evalbot_8053 Inf
luqui and I definitely don't agree with those
devin i agree that if you are going to say Inf*0 is NaN then you should say the same thing about 1**Inf
luqui ?eval (-.5)**Inf
evalbot_8053 0.0
luqui Oh, and: 05:19
?eval Inf**0
evalbot_8053 1.0
devin well i guess the first thing you should do is write failing tests for those cases and submit a patch to the test suite
luqui yep 05:20
doing so
Khisanth luqui: why do you disagree with 1**Inf? 05:21
devin cool ... big parts of the pugs testsuite will be usable for other implementations 05:22
luqui because (1.00000000000000001)**Inf == Inf
Khisanth heh assuming there is another :)
luqui I can come up with a more rigorous example if you like
Khisanth hmm but 1 is not a float 05:23
luqui ahh... that's an interesting perspective
devin ?eval 1.0**Inf
evalbot_8053 1.0
Khisanth see that is disagreeable :) 05:24
luqui but Inf is a float... and we surely don't have infix:<**>(Int, Num) defined... do we?
devin Inf is not a float either, so who knows
Inf is a float?
luqui sure. you can put it in floats in C at least 05:25
(we're on the edge of mathematics and engineering here, you see)
(a lot of bullshit happens in these lands)
devin wow you are right, i have used floats in C for years and never realised Infinity was a possibility
luqui the mathematician in me has strong objections to the allowance of Inf in any variable
but the programmer in me likes them, because I can use them in min() and max() 05:26
s:g/them/it/
devin Inf and NaN are like undef and SQL's NULL etc .. sentinel values 05:27
luqui and I definitely have objections to "if $x == Inf {...}" 05:28
anyway.
I don't consider this to be a part of the language design where rigor is essential
because people have been using floats with these possibilities for years
and every once in a while they have a good use
devin Inf is not infinity. it's a special purpose value that just represents infinity ... so it's not math, it's binary comparison. don't think of it as algebra 05:29
*shrug* time for me to go pick up my cleaning 05:30
luqui the thing is, when I don't think of it as algebra, then I can't use algebra to reason about it
devin actually i think it should be rigorously defined... that is what the test suite does 05:39
as long as it is rigorously defined, then for sure you will be able to use logic to reason about it, which is fine even if the logic isn't the same as algebra 05:40
luqui oh, by "rigor", I suppose I meant "conventional mathematical rigor". 05:44
I agree that it should be precisely defined
devin sounds like we're in violent agreement 05:51
luqui ?eval 0**(-6) 05:53
evalbot_8053 pugs: Ratio.%: zero denominator
luqui ?eval 0.0**(-6.0)
evalbot_8053 pugs: Ratio.%: zero denominator
luqui ?eval 0.0**(-6.1) 05:54
evalbot_8053 Inf
luqui gr
?eval 1/0 05:56
evalbot_8053 Error: Illegal division by zero
luqui hmm... shouldn't that just be NaN, since we seem to be applying that everywhere 05:57
svnbot6 r8054 | luqui++ | Added tests about infinity, and "fixed" op2Exp to make them pass. They should 06:08
r8054 | luqui++ | be checked for correctness.
dwold hello all
can anyone see this? 06:09
luqui yep 06:10
dwold good :)
got a one line paste do I still need to put it in the past urls?
luqui you can just put it here 06:12
lisppaste3 dwold pasted "regex" at paste.lisp.org/display/14245
luqui or.. not
that's one line?
lisppaste3 dwold annotated #14245 with "regex" at paste.lisp.org/display/14245#1
dwold say well now lol 06:13
Well I just posted the whole thing
What I cant get to work properly is the regex, Im not too familiar with either perl or regex
luqui first, this is not the correct place to ask this question
this channel is about Perl 6, which hasn't been released
go to #perl or #perlhelp
dwold ahh Woops :)
sorry 06:14
luqui no prob
?eval 0**0 06:15
06:15 evalbot_8053 is now known as evalbot_8054
evalbot_8054 1/1 06:15
luqui ?eval (-1)**Inf 06:16
evalbot_8054 NaN
luqui It's possible that that commit was antispec 06:18
I seem to recall Larry specifying that Perl will follow some common floating point spec
rather than trying to reinvent the wheel
however wrong that spec might be
devin yes, pugs should be "bug-compatible" with everyone else 06:25
luqui I just read the IEEE spec wrt infinity.
I'll roll back my changes :-( 06:26
?eval 0/90 06:27
evalbot_8054 0/1
luqui ?eval 0/0
evalbot_8054 Error: Illegal division by zero
luqui ?eval 0.00/0.00
evalbot_8054 Error: Illegal division by zero
luqui ?eval 1.43/0
evalbot_8054 Error: Illegal division by zero
luqui hmm
that should be NaN... maybe
it really depends on whether we're interpreting it as a float or as a rat
svnbot6 r8055 | luqui++ | Darn. Rolled back my "fixes", because of Larry's decree that 06:32
r8055 | luqui++ | we should follow IEEE floating point, even if it is broken.
autrijus luqui: ping 07:17
luqui pong 07:18
er, autrijus, pong 07:19
autrijus we need to talk :)
> Perl 6 has no type system.
Perl 5 has a strong, dynamic (late-bound), type system 07:20
luqui alright, fine, I was not being precise
autrijus nowhere did I see in type_meta that says we do without it
also:
luqui (keep in mind that type_meta is largely a work-in-progress: I am still researching) 07:21
autrijus my Socket $fh = open('/etc/passwd');
I gather from the text of type_meta that this should _still_ fail at runtime?
luqui yes
autrijus if so, that is a type system... unless we discard "Socket" by default
which would be kind of wacky.
luqui right
I meant no "static" type system. I intend to make a very simple pattern-based "type system", basically allowing roles to be functions from objects to bools 07:22
autrijus also, MMD being late-bound... I see no problems with it.
luqui ? 07:23
autrijus the text seem to argue that MMD needs to be statically determined
otherwise it's lost at sea
luqui there is only one problem
autrijus I fail to see that, really
luqui and that is with "is lazy" and MMD
you know, the reason you added the tiny type inferencer currently in pugs
autrijus yes, but that is not really MMD 07:24
you can get it with SMD too
luqui 'splain
autrijus sub foo (Socket $s is lazy) { ... }; foo(open('/etc/passwd')); 07:25
luqui that's not *deciding* what to execute based on the type of $s
you can delay a check
autrijus how do I delay it?
luqui but you can't roll back and say "oh, now that we've evaluated, I think we actually should have chosen this other sub instead" 07:26
autrijus sub foo (Socket $s is lazy) { system("rm -rf /") }
sub foo (Socket $s is lazy) { system("rm -rf /"); ... evaluate $s ... }
luqui uh
autrijus it's the same problem really... with lazy evaluation we still don't want rm-rf to happen
luqui I suppose
autrijus it's, in a sense, deciding which path to execute (rm-rf or type fail)
it's asif all sub{} is actually multi{} with a default case that throws type error. 07:27
luqui okay, I'll buy that
but that was a problem before
(and it's a hard one... hmm, hadn't thought about it before)
Incidentally, if you consider lazy passing as passing a coderef, i.e. my proposal a little while back, the problem gets swept under the rug 07:28
sub foo ($s is lazy:(--> Socket)) {...} 07:29
we can't check that that is the type of $s if it is untyped
we can only check that it is a code at all
hmm. You can't really do MMD on function types. 07:30
dynamically, that is
autrijus sure we can, if the function is explicitly typed.
luqui yeah, but if it's not
there's nothing we can evaluate to figure out its type 07:31
autrijus if it's not it's populated with Any by default, which is like CLR's "Object" catchall type
luqui but now, supposing for a second that we did have a static type system, there is a subtle interplay between compile-time and runtime multiple dispatch 07:32
autrijus anyway. my point is that if people discover that adding type annontation does not bring any errors forward to compile time
luqui (and makes their programs slower to boot)
autrijus then there is significantly less incentive of adding any sort of annotations.
yup.
luqui yeah. But "use Types::Static" isn't so hard to type...
they just have to know about it
autrijus ah but what would Types::Static bring to table, is the questoin. 07:33
luqui The whole idea is that you put the static type system in the hands of CPAN, not eliminate it altogether
autrijus yup, I understand that
luqui okay...
autrijus however, even under separate compilation, type constraints expected by a module still has to be understood by another
luqui yeah, that's the part that I haven't figured out yet 07:34
autrijus so there still have to be a static calculus somewhere
luqui research, thinking, sketching, all of that
dduncan autrijus, I'm not sure if it was addressed in the last couple weeks, but when I last tried to define a perl 6 class whose constructor had named arguments, it didn't work
autrijus dduncan: minimal example?
dduncan see Locale::KeyedText::Message
luqui thinks dduncan should write a test case instead ;-) 07:35
dduncan I was under the impression that normally you just define a BUILD submethod, and not a new() ...
autrijus luqui: nodnod... I think it's a healthy direction (not tied to any static calculus for the moment) but I think the static calculus is still needed -- it has to be very rich and not at all decidable
dduncan and that named arguments are what the default new() has ... you only explicitly make a new() if you want positional args
luqui autrijus, does that help us? 07:36
autrijus luqui: if we don't have that, we can't capture constraints in module interfaces, and no static analysis can exist in multimodule programs
luqui: and by limiting to a sensible subset in it (via some Types::* framework), the frameworks can provide users with interesting services
like inferrence and whatnot.
luqui hm... 07:37
dduncan but when I declare just a BUILD having named arguments, the argument's value is a Pair
the reason I'm asking you is ...
autrijus submethod BUILD (Str :$msg_key!, Any :%msg_vars? = hash()) {
}
this one?
luqui the thing I'm thinking is that the calculus in CLTI is not a subset of F<:
dduncan when I last brought this matter up, there were opinions raised that the behaviour I expected wasn't what should be done ... someone had a problem with that design idea 07:38
autrijus, yes
part of the reason I'm bringing it to you is to see what you think the correct behaviour is supposed to be, so I can code to that
autrijus luqui: p6 already has Ada's "range" constraint types... we can't be a proper subset of F<: anyway
(unless you demote them all to runtime, but I think it's a pity) 07:39
my Int where {1..5} $x = 3;
dduncan I didn't make a test suite because I didn't know if an official decision had been reached about what the correct behaviour is supposed to be 07:40
luqui dduncan, it's hard to understand what you're asking
can you write a little code please?
just paste or whatever
autrijus, ah, no, I'm just saying that there are interesting calculi which may not be a subset of ours
autrijus dduncan: does BUILD work if you call it explicitly?
luqui which may be okay
it'd be nicer to increase the demand for writing a Types:: module instead... if that is possible
autrijus, i.e. the type system would provide more an interface than a calculus 07:41
autrijus luqui: nodnod... but you can have a calculus that is just collecting annotations and has _no_ static progression rules
luqui still not quite sure what that would look like though
autrijus (every thing is deferred to runtime)
luqui oh
I see
autrijus so you can typecheck this:
6.{7} = 1.(3) 07:42
as there's no static progression)
luqui autrijus, for example, so that two modues that use parametric types can agree with each other about what they mean
autrijus yup
luqui okay, I can see that that might be a necessity
autrijus once that is in place, I'm going to argue there is still a default static type system that makes 1.(3) not typecheck 07:43
dduncan autrijus, I didn't know I could call it explicitly, for some reason, but I could try that ...
autrijus but we can save that arguement later :)
dduncan when you say "call it explicitly", do you mean declare a new() that declares bless(), or call BUILD from the outside?
autrijus call BUILD from outside 07:44
dduncan will try ...
luqui autrijus, well... what I argued in type_meta is that if you have a default, it has to be good
but I guess we're saving that argument until later ;-)
dduncan brb
autrijus dduncan: nvm, I fixed the bug. 07:45
luqui: yup... 1.[6.(3)] exceeds my definition of "good by default" :) 07:46
meanwhile, can I commit this?
--- notes/type_meta.pod (revision 8551)
+++ notes/type_meta.pod (local)
-Perl 6 has no type system.
+Perl 6 has no single, canonical, static type system.
luqui sure
it was kind of a shock effect thing, but I suppose I shocked you too much :-) 07:47
dduncan oh, luqui ...
luqui dduncan, asiiiiiiiii?
dduncan I just remembered that I *did* write a test case
luqui cool
dduncan its the then-new file t/oo/named_parameters_in_BUILD.t, committed on Nov 13th
after I committed this, it was on the list that someone said my expected behaviour was disagreeable 07:48
so autrijus, if /oo/named_parameters_in_BUILD.t passes its tests, then my problem is probably fixed 07:49
luqui dduncan, that's, um... I don't remember that
autrijus dduncan: it should as of r8057
luqui but I think the expected behavior is entirely agreeable
I don't see how one could argue otherwise
dduncan I can check the log to see who disagreed ... 07:50
autrijus anyway, it's caused by Prim.hs still using the &infix:=> form instead of the new exploded Syn "named" form
dduncan: 07:51
1..2
ok 1 - BUILD arg declared as named and invoked with literal pair should contain only the pair value
ok 2 - same arg should be of declared type
enjoy :)
dduncan thank you
luqui hooray, bugfixes!
autrijus np... sorry for being away this long :)
dduncan checking the latest smoke from a couple days ago, that was still broken ... great for the fix
svnbot6 r8056 | autrijus++ | * Perl 6 does have a strong dynamic type system
r8057 | autrijus++ | * In calling BUILD from BUILDALL, use named arguments instead
r8057 | autrijus++ | of unexploded pair objects. Reported by dduncan.
autrijus I assure you it was by neccessity and on short notice. :)
dduncan something else I'll bring up, which may have already been fixed, concerned CATCH blocks not being called 07:52
luqui you going to blog about it autrijus?
dduncan between what autrijus just fixed and that, which I think already had a failing test written by someone else ...
autrijus luqui: I think I did already
dduncan those are the main things in the way of the rewritten Locale::KeyedText working properly in perl 6
luqui that really abstract blog that I didn't understand? 07:53
autrijus luqui: yeah, and the current one talking about financial hell
dduncan: I don't think we even parse CATCH blocks.
luqui ah right, now I remember
dduncan CATCH blocks did parse, but they didn't execute
the only way I could check if an exception was thrown was to read $!, like how its done in perl 5 07:54
I can do that as a workaround, but its ugly
autrijus ?eval CATCH { 1 }
07:54 evalbot_8054 is now known as evalbot_8057
evalbot_8057 Error: No such method: "&CATCH" 07:54
autrijus it did not parse :)
?eval BEGIN { 1 } # compare this
evalbot_8057 1
dduncan if it didn't parse, why was the error not citing bad syntax?
anyway ... 07:55
autrijus maybe it was used in a function application position
luqui It's trying to execute CATCH(sub { 1 })
in that case at least
autrijus I see t/builtins/control_flow/try.t already has tests
dduncan: for now you may have to test $! by hand until someone adds CATCH to ruleClosureTrait in Parser.hs 07:56
I can try to help but my pressing priority now is still Roles and .meta 07:57
once that's done though, hooking closure traits like CATCH should be much simpler
dduncan no problem ... at least there IS a workaround
autrijus nod... whilst with BUILD there was none
dduncan yes
autrijus thanks for your persistence as usual :)
I may need to run for a bit... be back in ~15 mins 07:58
dduncan fyi, I think it was Juerd that disagreed with my assumption
luqui oh, Juerd, that makes sense ;-)
dduncan see colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/...2005-11-13 , time index 01:34 07:59
luqui oh, that
it was on a larger scale than specific semantics
dduncan and since he thought that, well it seemed maybe others did 08:00
luqui like, oh, say, me
but that was unrelated to the issue
if it does change, it needs to be a major change
dduncan I'm not sure
luqui and endorsed by Larry especially
dduncan actually, you were involved too 08:01
luqui yeah, I remember
and I agree with Juerd that the new/BUILD thing is both wrong and overly complicated. but that requires a proposal to fix, not a "this buggy behavior might actually be correct" kind of issue 08:02
well, I'm tired. I wanted to go to bed at midnight and it's already 1:00 08:03
dduncan meanwhile, now that it is fixed, my code written that way in Perl 6, and my mirroring Perl 5 code using Class::Std, can work the same
luqui g'night. thanks for poking holes in pugs where they need to be poked.
dduncan good night 08:04
luqui &
autrijus re 08:33
svnbot6 r8058 | root++ | * My original Chinese name is officially obsolete as of last week.
autrijus oh wow, "root"
(that's my misuse of svn+ssh -- apologies. fixing) 08:34
fixed. 08:35
xinming autrijus: ping 09:31
:-)
autrijus xinming: pong 09:32
xinming autrijus: what's your Chinese name for now? :-/
autrijus xinming: that's a secret :)
xinming or, are you going to become in hidden mode. :-/ 09:33
autrijus no... not really, just disassociating with my past as a notorious poster child for whatever 09:34
so I can focus on work I like, eg. pugs
xinming autrijus: well, But your English name still exists. :-P 09:36
autrijus you mean the net-id "autrijus"? yeah, that's going to stay around
xinming want to be the first person who knows antrijus' changed name... :-D 09:37
autrijus nah... it's already known by some people :) 09:38
xinming could you send me private message to tell me this. :'( 09:39
autrijus one day I will, but the day is not today... :)
xinming ..
Well, Ok.
autrijus kane_: hey! 10:03
oops. 10:04
kane_ autrijus! long time no see :) 10:05
wherabouts are you now?
autrijus just arrived to .au 10:06
sorry I missed your msgs... I also just discovered I forgot to identify to nickserv again
kane_ ah, right... nice weather i hope?
yeah, nickserv is annoying
autrijus yup, excellent excellent weather
kane_ did you happen to have a chance to see what happened to S22? 10:07
autrijus I've seen the misc/sixpan
does it have something to do with you?
and no, I havn't really read thru it. plan to do so now as part of journaling
kane_ eh, yeah :)
read the S22, check out hte prototype dir -- that's my code
in short: it'll work 10:08
but not on dpkg ;)
autrijus that... is very reassuring
very rare someone utter that in association with a synopsis/perl6 :)
kane_ well, i can make shit up as i go along -- no silly syntax problems, no legacy.. it's so much easier :) 10:09
oh, and this could technically be bolted on to existing p5 infrastructure, if we felt like giving it a good run
dpkg++ # good place to steal ideas from 10:10
r0nny morning 10:14
autrijus kane_: excellent... I'll read, sleep on it, and get back :) 10:15
(going to meet alias tomorrow morning and fly to melbourne)
kane_ autrijus: okidoki -- have some sleep & fun, we'll talk later 10:16
autrijus cool! kane++
r0nny autrijus: can u take a look at rafb.net/paste/results/J1QI3k92.html and tell me if im wrong, or the method dispatcher ? 10:19
autrijus do you mean that doit should not be able to be called as a subrountine? 10:21
as $.baz is undef
that is a bug alright, but it's kinda subtle
r0nny well - it aslo happens, if $baz has a method with the name doit
i had a design, where i had a class with a method, and if u called the method it calles a method with the same name on a attribute, with itself as 2nd param 10:22
autrijus ok, I think I know why
r0nny it allways ended up in endless loops
why ?
i really want to know 10:23
(else im forced to switch to python)
autrijus ?eval class Foo { has Bar $.bar; method doit { $.bar.doit } } class Bar { method doit { 'bar' } }; Foo.new(bar => Bar.new).doit 10:24
10:24 evalbot_8057 is now known as evalbot_8058
evalbot_8058 "bar" 10:24
autrijus that works
r0nny btw - does evalbot run on pugs ?
autrijus yes
?eval class Foo { has Bar $.bar; method doit { $.bar.doit } } class Bar { method doit { 'bar' } }; say Foo.new(bar => undef).doit 10:25
so you see, the dispatch is really keyed on the actual runtime type of $.bar
evalbot_8058 (no output)
r0nny hat appens, if i dont define the type of bar ? 10:26
autrijus it depends on what actually is in it
the bug here is that if it is undef
then it degrades into a call to doit() in the current scope
which is obviously wrong.
but in your design it should not be undef, should it.
(as the first case of my ?eval above)
(and also... give ruby a try before switching to python. :-)) 10:27
r0nny it is never undef
autrijus can I see some actual code? 10:28
where it is not undef, that is
r0nny actually im on rewriting everything
i just deleted my code using it
autrijus ok
r0nny but i think a new one will be ready in about 6-7 hours
autrijus k... I'll check back after I wake up tomorrow morning 10:29
r0nny ok
gn
gaal looks at 8058 and wonders if the domain name should perhaps have been eruditorum.org 10:40
autrijus it's obra's domain :) 10:41
gaal yeah, I found that out a while ago :-) 10:42
what is your favorite color?
autrijus dark purple
gaal "Autrijus the dark purple" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "Enoch the Red", but I guess we'll have to make do with that. 10:43
autrijus ... 10:44
I still havn't read anything in that cycle other than cryptonomicon
gaal I wonder if it's SPJ the (referentially) Transparent 10:45
autrijus I'm sure chromatic is chromatic.
gaal autrijus: I've got them all if you're into speed-reading ;-)
Crypronomicon, of course, is number i in that series. 10:46
autrijus cc2e, with barely 1000 pages, already took me more than a week
I think speed reading is not my forte :)
integral but CC is rather serious compared to TBC :)
autrijus I don't know... I flipped thru some of the later TBC tomes
they look serious
or at least seriously long 10:47
integral you don't read on planes/trains much? 10:48
integral reads another pterry every time he travels
gaal a friend is really excited about the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian. They apparently are quite "serious" in the sense that they are impeccably reserached.
autrijus integral: I do... now that I don't bring laptops into (say) bath, I've got even more slices of time to read 10:49
gaal: I heard someone saying that wrt Rule of Four. then I read it. a bit underwhelmed. :/ 10:50
the pizza is kicking in... I'll be back after a short nap :) 10:51
gaal actually although I really dig Stephenson's writing, this isn't exaclty my favorite genre
gaal makes a wish for pizza 10:52
autrijus I note you read Nobokov... which really really helped, btw.
gaal++
Nabokov, even
bbiab... & 10:53
gaal bye :) 10:54
dduncan good night 11:17
r0nny is there a global var, tells if im in debug mode, ot not ? 11:44
gaal what's debug mode, r0nny? 12:40
r0nny gaal: my app 13:02
gaal r0nny: but what is debug mode? afaik we don't have a debugger in pugs yet. in p5 I suppose you could do this: 14:44
# perl -le 'print "IN DEBUG MODE" if keys %DB::'
Juerd_ There being something in %DB:: could also mean someone used the include-trick (tnx.nl/include) 14:47
gaal wow, that's a dirty hack :) 14:48
Juerd_ Dirty but incredibly useful :) 14:49
It's a shame that this feature can only be accessed this way.
gaal but so ok, the test above can trivially be fixed to look for one of the expected debugger routines.
r0nny does anyone know, how the yadayada operaots are done ? 15:39
eg ..., ??? and !!!
gaal what do you mean, how they are done? 15:41
look in Parser.hs, IIRC at the bottom of the file.
r0nny i want to write a own yadayada operator 15:42
gaal ?eval sub castle_of_aaaaaah { !!! } castle_of_aaaaaah()
evalbot_8058 Error: !!! - not yet implemented
gaal what do you want it to do?
r0nny print wich class, wich method , wich instacne class, then exit 15:43
eh return failure
gaal ?eval sub XYX { Carp::confess } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYZ() } 15:44
evalbot_8058 undef
gaal grrrr.
?eval sub XYX { say Carp::longmess } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYZ() }
evalbot_8058 undef 15:45
gaal grrrr!
?eval sub XYX { say Carp::longmess() } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() }
evalbot_8058 undef
r0nny u miss to call one of the subs
gaal GRRRRR!
?eval sub XYX { say Carp::longmess() } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A()
evalbot_8058 Error: No such method: "&Control::Caller::caller"
gaal wtf!?
r0nny i think hell foze in an instant 15:46
hmm 15:51
gaal ?eval sub XYX { say caller() } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A()
evalbot_8058 OUTPUT[<obj:Control::Caller> ] bool::true
gaal ?eval sub XYX { say caller().subname } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A()
evalbot_8058 OUTPUT[&main::C ] bool::true
r0nny ?eval sub XYX { say caller.caller.subname } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A() 15:52
evalbot_8058 Error: No such sub: "&subname"
gaal you need the ()
r0nny ?eval sub XYX { say caller().caller().subname } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A() 15:53
evalbot_8058 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
r0nny ?eval sub XYX { say caller().meta } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A()
evalbot_8058 Error: No such method: "&meta"
r0nny darn
gaal oh and you can't call caller() on the object returned by caller().
r0nny is there a way, to get more of the stack ?
gaal read the source for caller in Prelude.pm. 15:54
Juerd_ Yeah, but don't stray to the dark side of the source. 15:55
gaal ?eval sub XYX { say caller(skip => 2).subname } sub A { B() } sub B { C() } sub C { XYX() } A()
evalbot_8058 OUTPUT[&main::A ] bool::true
gaal when did longmess break, is what I want to know. 15:56
my fault for not writing a test for it :/
Juerd_ Does mess stand for message? 15:59
We need standard abbreviations. msg, mess, mesg... Too confusing
gaal yeah. this is unspecced, lifted straight from p5 Carp.
rafl I guess it stands for messiness 16:00
gaal that too
as it loops on caller rather than using some more efficient API.
then again people who need upstacking to be efficient may have other problems.
r0nny hmm 16:01
svnbot6 r8059 | kane++ | * whitespace fixes 16:05
rafl kane_: Hello 16:13
kane_: Do you know a nice p5 module that does the stuff File::Copy::Recursive stuff but with support for patterns? I don't want to clutter up the code for copying the module src to _jib/build to exclude _jib from that.. 16:15
Juerd_ rafl: package Acme::Nice::Module::Copy; sub cpr { system "cp -r @_" } 16:16
rafl: ;)
gaal cpr reminds me of Inline::CPR (which is totally cool) 16:17
rafl If it comes with a portable cp script.. why not?
gaal what, Inline::CPR? No, it doesn't :-)
kane_ rafl: i think you could use File::Find::Rule and add the output to File::Copy 16:20
rafl: btw, i'm working on JIB::Source now -- to build our source package sfrom a dir (analog to prototype's create.pl)
gaal kane_: you have to create dirs too. 16:21
kane_ doesn't file::copy just Get That?
gaal I think it doesn't, at least not portably.
rafl kane_: Oh, I'm as well. Well, maybe commit your's so I can code there as well.
gaal bbiab& 16:22
kane_ rafl: heh.. typical... ok, i'll do an intermediate commit
rafl: btw, i lowercased the methods in config.pm -- seemed more consistent with the rest of the code, i'll submit that too
rafl: btw, the JIB::Meta needs some consistency checks in it too, to make sure the META.info is 'sane' -- if you feel like that, by all means :) 16:23
rafl kane_: First I need to do some work that I get paid for.
kane_ rafl: np.. i'll hack on source.pm in the meantime 16:24
commit coming up
svnbot6 r8060 | kane++ | * lowercase config.pm methods 16:30
r8060 | kane++ | * add first rendition of source.pm + tests
rafl kane_: Thanks. 16:51
kane_: I'll do the Repository stuff next, if you're fine with that. 16:52
kane_ rafl: i am -- i'm adding some utils & constants modules too.. good place to cram stuff (stealing most of it back from CPANPLUS) -- i'll check those in next 16:53
rafl: oh.. the meta sanity checks also good -- if you find the time/energy of course
rafl kane_: OK. I'll look into it when I've done my work for monarch. 16:54
kane_ ok
svnbot6 r8061 | kane++ | * add jib::constants & basic tests 17:00
r8061 | kane++ | * add jib::utils & basic tests
r8061 | kane++ | * add 'build_dir' to config.pm
r8061 | kane++ | * work in progress
r8062 | kane++ | * basic tests for config.pm
r8063 | kane++ | * replace the loc() strings 17:06
rafl kane_: Why do the Utils method start with an underscore? 17:28
Khisanth hmm weird 17:34
make unoptimized takes 46 minutes to fail but "make" succeeds in 29 minutes :/
kane_ rafl: internal use only 17:48
not part of the published API
and i'm hating perl... frigging no decend path manipulation tools
rafl kane_: I actually like Path::Class. 17:49
kane_: At least its api. Some things are still missing to make it good enough.
kane_ it's missing the manipulation though.. or maybe i should say fs manipulation tools 17:50
like 'mv' and 'cp -R' and 'rm -r' that Just Frigging WOrk on *nix
it takes me 20 lines to do a clever recursive copy
that's just stupid
wheras cp -R does what i need
kane_ ponders jsut leaving the system()'s in for now, and clean it up later 17:51
will go Much Faster
SamB Khisanth: that is peculiar 17:52
maybe there are tools in the tree that need to be optimized to fit in memory and/or work right?
Khisanth SamB: seems to be fairly consistent as well 17:54
SamB well, this sort of thing does tend towards being that way 17:55
usually there is one thing that doesn't work quite right if a certain optimization doesn't happen 17:56
bsb kane_: IO::All has $io->all to recurse dir trees 18:01
Don't know about copying though
kane_ i got the recursion.. it's the copying
kane_ prays for a good file::copy::recursive
hrmpf 18:02
kane_ hates software some more 18:03
rafl kane_: It does some manipulation..
kane_ screw it, i'll fix this later
rafl kane_: $dir->rcopy($dest), etc.
(WRT Path::Class)
clkao kane!
kane_ cl, dude!
rafl: /rcopy/ is not mentioned in the path::class docs 18:04
rafl kane_: You're right. The only thing I can find for path manipulation are mkpath and rmtree. 18:05
kane_ yeah, this blows... i'll use the old root-* way of building and we'll fix this later
i hate getting stuck on this nonsense for 45 mins becasue perls tools blow :(
gaal kane_: I assure you, cp is more than 20 lines of code :-) 18:10
r0nny re 18:11
rafl kane_: I can give a try to fix that. My create.pl equiv was able to copy everything into the right place. 18:13
kane_ rafl: good.. i'll check it in with prototype code, and we can just tear out the system()'s one by one
svnbot6 r8064 | kane++ | * add more deps to makefile.pl 18:28
r8064 | kane++ | * fail miserably in getting cp -R to work Proper
r8064 | kane++ | * stay with system() calls, remove them later
r8064 | kane++ | * also, i hate perl sometimes
r0nny i got a problem with the yadayada operator ??? - it exits the program - acording to the docs it just prints a warning 18:31
anyone can tell me whats up with this ? 18:33
kane_ ?eval print 1 if ??? 18:37
18:37 evalbot_8058 is now known as evalbot_8064
evalbot_8064 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle) 18:37
kane_ ?eval if( 1 ) { ??? }
evalbot_8064 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
kane_ eyes the bot
r0nny sub test{???}; test; 18:39
?eval sub test{???}; test;
evalbot_8064 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
wolverian ?eval ??? 18:41
evalbot_8064 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
wolverian ?eval !!!
evalbot_8064 Error: !!! - not yet implemented
r0nny ?eval ...
evalbot_8064 *** ... - not yet implemented at <eval> line 1, column 1-4
r0nny ?eval sub foo{...};foo
evalbot_8064 *** ... - not yet implemented at <eval> line 1, column 9-12
r0nny darn it 18:42
eval $?VERSION
?eval $?VERSION
evalbot_8064 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?VERSION"
r0nny eval $?V
gaal ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
evalbot_8064 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r8064)"
gaal please see Run.hs for globals
r0nny i will do
gaal kane_: File::Path has a mkpath function. 18:44
kane_ it's recursive copying with exclusion i want
but thanks for trying :)
gaal yes, i was referring to _mkdir
kane_ it calls, under the hood: eval { File::Path::mkpath($args->{dir}) }; 18:45
it's just a wrapper to DTRT and handle errors
gaal oh.
r0nny btw - is there a global is set, when compiling ?
gaal r0nny: explain? 18:46
kane_: what do you want a recursive copy to do? you mentioned "exclusion"...?
r0nny if i coampile, i want to include the stuff usually is loaded based on runtime-determined variables
kane_ in shell speak, along the lines of cp -R source_dir destination_dir, where source_dir has been grep -v'd for a pattern 18:47
like no txt files or so
gaal kane_: rcopy($from, $to, Rule $except?) { ... } ? 18:48
is the filter applied deeply as well? 18:49
kane_ yes
in our case, it's 'dont copy one particular subdir somewhere in the tree'
gaal oh. but what if a file with the same name exists somewhere else? 18:50
a regex would not be enough. looks like you need your own visitor.
kane_ i can do the filtering with file::find::rule
just the -R doesn't do the right thin any more on cp or anything else
gaal then what's missing?
kane_ but rafl said he had some code that worked, so hopefully that does the trick
gaal ok.
kane_ the implicit mkdir -p for one
gaal r0nny: sorry, I don't understand 18:51
kane_ and the mkdir'ing of hte basename, rather than the whole path you feed it
and stuff like that
gaal kane_: I must have written this a few times in the past. :-)
r0nny gaal: when i conpile, i want to include all modules could be needed, while if i run it, i just want to use these are actually needed 18:52
gaal r0nny: so you want something like AUTOLOAD that possibly loads additional modules?
...but which are forced-loaded when precompiling 18:53
r0nny yeah
gaal ah, now I understand the "global" you were asking about.
r0nny how to do this ?
gaal I don't think this is specced anywhere, since the perlrun stuff hasn't been specced. 18:54
r0nny :/
then my build system will be very slow 18:55
gaal as a workaround, not very neat, you can check %*ENV in a BEGIN block.
and conditionally load things if sometihng like IS_PRECOMPILING is set.
that'd be your applicative env flag, though. 18:56
r0nny hmm
gaal this can be made into a module fairly easily, the question is what interface to give it. Ask p6-l maybe? 18:59
r0nny hmm
maybe i should wait, till binary modules are suppported 19:00
btw - kane_ what will be used for binary module building
kane_ r0nny: in what regard? 19:01
r0nny sixpan
kane_ no binary modules on sixpan 19:02
r0nny hmm 19:03
then what willbe used on the client to compile them ?
rafl The Perl Compiler? *duck*
kane_ r0nny: Some Build Tool (tm)
package manager ne build tool
r0nny kane_: mind if i contribute the default build tool ? 19:04
kane_ knock yourself out -- that would be the replacement of EU::MM/Module::Build
you might wanna take it up with those guys for the guts
r0nny hmm
kane_ doesn't know much about the ev0l of building modules 19:05
r0nny EU::MM ?
long name ?
kane_ ExtUtils::MakeMaker -- current 'default' installer for perl5 19:06
the JIB code (sixpan pm) will invoke 'a' build tool with certain arguments at certain times.. what happens next is up to the buildtool, etc
r0nny hmm 19:07
kane_ the end result of what hte buildtool should do is install thigns in a target directory which it should treat as /..f rom there, JIB takes over again 19:08
r0nny hmm
my build tools default is to create a directory wich contains everything needed to copy to / to install the thing
kane_ that's pretty much what i said 19:09
only difference would be is that we say 'here is that dir' rather than you making one up :)
r0nny my tol will be happy to eat your preferences 19:10
but atm its not mature enough
rafl kane_: Everything commited by now? I'd like to leave now and hack on my way.
kane_ no, much hacking in progress
i got $src->biuld working, so we have .jibs now
doing JIB::Installation next, so we can do $src_pkg install as well 19:11
r0nny jibs ?
kane_ points r0nny at the S22 draft
rafl When do you expect to be done so I can pull it and leave?
kane_ hopefully within the hour
provided no stupid perl things annoy me :)
you can pull now though, and just remember i'm hacking on those 2 sections :) 19:12
i'll just commit something that's save then
rafl OK. I hope the WLAN at $rafls_destination hasn't changed its WEP key again. :-)
kane_ just committed 19:13
Committed revision 8065. 19:14
that should be fairly safe
kane_ finds hacking stuff in and leaving lots of XXX markers speeds things up :)
19:15 _SamB_ is now known as SamB
svnbot6 r8065 | kane++ | * rework config.pm to be mutable 19:15
r8065 | kane++ | * add a few config settings from prototypes _inc.pl
r8065 | kane++ | * add more tests for config.pm
r8065 | kane++ | * add a conf.pl to be loaded at the beginning of a test to set up the environment
rafl kane_: Thanks.
r0nny Module::Build is fun - unfortunately is supports only perl
rafl kane_: Hm... acceleration X's :-)
kane_ rafl: exactly.. im just taking our prototype and throwing it in a good API
the guts will need fixing up then obviously
rafl Indeed. 19:17
Bye!
r0nny kane_: are u going to support multiple build systems ? 19:18
kane_ r0nny: yes
r0nny sweet
plz tell me, if its ready 19:19
kane_ ok 19:20
r0nny i want my system to fit from the beginning 19:21
btw - how are u doing the depency solving ? 19:22
kane_ there's a dependency engine -- i suggest you read the S22 draft, it explains a lot 19:24
r0nny hmm 19:27
i'd say add llvm support, and then allow bytecode modules 19:28
kane_ what are you talking about? 19:29
r0nny right - forgot to mention the context 19:30
i'd like to see a distribution, where the users can load bytecode modules, are faster loaded - and since llvm supports this for c-bits and reachs native speed it would be very usefull 19:32
kane_ sounds great... do it :) 19:34
r0nny omg - im allmost on my limits with studying, the build system and the os 19:35
how could i possibly get llvm support into perl6 19:36
kane_ dunno... persuade someone else to do it then.. just dont look at me :)
r0nny looks at kane_ with the "who else coud do" eyes 19:37
kane_ package manager > bytecode imho
kane_ points at his just 2 hands
r0nny i could give u some others - i know much people only need one ;P 19:38
svnbot6 r8066 | kane++ | * remove loc() strings
kane_ ok, now you're just freaking me out 19:39
r0nny puts another "freaked-out-person" stamp on his wall 19:40
svnbot6 r8067 | kane++ | * add a .jib file for testing 19:56
r8067 | kane++ | * add work in progress install code to package.pm
r8067 | kane++ | * remove loc() string from constants
r8067 | kane++ | * add installation.pm & tests to use for query local installation information
Alias_ .jib? 20:01
DesreveR hmm
jesus is back
20:02 DesreveR is now known as r0nny
kane_ waves in the general direction of S22 once more :) 20:02
r0nny ;P
r0nny hands kane a wave-mashine
svnbot6 r8068 | kane++ | * get basic install working jib::package 20:14
Khisanth hmm yaht.kwid 21:18
kane_: where is the perldoc program that can actually parse S22draft.pod? 21:19
r0nny Khisanth: usually its part of the perl5 dist 21:24
Khisanth hmm this version handles it but someone what having problems with some of the directives 21:25
r0nny hmm 21:26
21:52 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
venk attach irc.perl.org 22:38
autrijus the "nap" turns out to be 13 hours :/ 22:57
wolverian it's good for you :) 22:59
goo looks really neat, I just can't figure out how to use it 23:00
if anyone has tips, please do share :)
autrijus runs to airport to meet Alias 23:08
Khisanth goo? 23:09
use Goo; splatter "wolverian"; ? 23:10
wolverian see thegoo.org/about.html, particularly the tour 23:18
(and the LPW slides, too.. they're on the LPW site I believe.) 23:19
Khisanth damns the ,
wolverian sorry :)

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