The Return of the Journal : pugs.blogs.com/ | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by GammaRay on 31 December 2005.
Juerd Fuck, fuck, fuck. START SSHD. 00:00
What's it doing? Thinking about the meaning of life?
It's up 00:01
But still slow
azuroth hi Juerd 00:02
Juerd Hello
azuroth how are you doing?
Juerd Guess.
azuroth is this feather you're fighting with? 00:03
Juerd Yes 00:04
And SATA connectors
disk io is slow on feather 00:05
And I don't know why
azuroth ick. I've never used SATA, but everyone I know seems to have problems with it 00:06
Juerd I also have many systems running without any problems. 00:07
azuroth main problem I've heard about is booting to windows 00:10
putter Ok, the 3 clusters of ext/ failures now all appear to be a small set of pugsbugs. this is now a haskell exercise. ;) 00:11
dduncan: see previous line. :)
Juerd azuroth: Haven't had problems with that either 00:12
Odin- doesn't have any problems with booting Windows: I just don't do it. :)
putter oh, it's fun. just don't do it in your bare feet. 00:13
Anyone looking for something to do: the ChangeLog still has quite a ways to go before it is up to date (it's at r8750), and needs a cleanup pass. 00:16
just svn log -r8750:8775 to get your feet wet 00:17
Juerd GODDAMNIT 00:20
Fucking goddamned box won't install lilo with a degraded array
Then how the hell am I going to get it to use a new kernel, so it can use the other box, so it can rebuild its array
Die, lilo 00:21
Juerd tries grub.
"Probing devices to guess BIOS drives. This may take a long time." 00:22
How long is a long time, genius programmer?
A week? A month? A year?
A decade?
How long until I can safely assume it's broken and reset the box?
Oh yay. I/O errors on the disk.
I give up
rafl Juerd: Is feather already working again? If not, you should probably disable cron.
00:24 vel joined
Juerd rafl: It works, but not well. 00:26
I don't know wtf is wrong.
I can write to the disk at 10 MB/s, which is full line speed
Let's degrade the raid array to see what the resynch speed will be 00:27
[>....................] recovery = 3.0% (742976/24418688) finish=8.4min speed=46436K/sec 00:28
That's normal speed
Then why does it perform so badly :(
00:30 grayson joined
rafl Juerd: Maybe because some pugs builds are running in parallel? 00:31
00:31 stennie joined
Juerd rafl: Both niced 00:32
00:32 xern joined 00:35 gilby joined
dduncan I be back 00:40
now checking ext/ 00:41
putter hey dduncan 00:42
dduncan hi
putter I fixed the one ext/ file that looked plausibly like a non-pugs-core problem. the rest are core exercises.
dduncan so last I checked, the only red zones were in 4 ext/ items
putter actually, your last smoke had 3 failed tests in magical/env.t
dduncan so you think the remaining failures are best fixed in the core and not the ext code itself?
putter yes. one is mentioned by iblech as that being audreyt's call, the others seem similar 00:43
I have no idea what's going on with env.t. your last smoke is the only place i've seen it fail. ??? 00:44
dduncan that does make sense to an extent
since a lot of the ext/ stuff was written before 6.2.10 and not changed since
putter on the other hand, I didn't look _behind_ the various ext/ failues, ie, what happens if failing test x is removed, do things then pass. 00:45
dduncan so if they fail now its because either the core's broken, or the ext/ was depending on broken functionality that was fixed
whereas, I try to isolate the problems ... but some of them just seem to say the core is at fault
even if futile, I'll give them a quick look now ... after all, the ext/ could be wrong 00:46
00:46 Limbic_Region joined
dduncan but I'll ask you a question 00:46
regarding File-Spec
putter any idea what happened in env.t?
dduncan I have to step out for a few minutes, but will look closer at env.t 00:47
putter ok
rafl Juerd: What did you change on feather? I can't imagine that changing memory makes the box that slow.. 00:49
Juerd rafl: Motherboard, CPU, memory.
6677 eric256 35 10 43580 40m 1520 R 15.0 2.0 0:56.66 catalog_tests.p 00:50
5537 eric256 35 10 43588 40m 1532 R 14.1 2.0 5:40.94 catalog_tests.p
2371 eric256 35 10 44712 41m 1648 R 13.5 2.1 14:15.35 catalog_tests.p
That's a bit overdone. 00:51
Okay, slayed users
Now let's see what a kernel build does
putter Compiling Pugs.AST ( src/Pugs/AST.hs, dist/build/src/Pugs/AST.o ) /tmp/ghc24699.hc: In function `PugsziAST_zdwcharInc_entry': /tmp/ghc24699.hc:39: warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size 00:52
rafl Maybe it's that slow that erics task isn't finished when the next one starts..
Juerd make clean is already slow
rafl: Could be.
putter And in Pugs.Lexer
Juerd But the disk was fast
45 MB/s is normal.
The CPU that's installed now is faster than the previous
rafl I'd blame the mainboard then. 00:53
00:53 weinig joined
putter *** Compiling PIL to JavaScript... 00:54
substr outside of string at /mnt/disk150_30G_5/pugs_kennel/r8869/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL.pm line 349.
Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at /mnt/disk150_30G_5/pugs_kennel/r8869/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL.pm line 349.
Juerd But what part?
Something has to be *broken* to perform so badly
But brokenness leads to error messages
rafl I once had a rally bad disk performance with a SATA disk when I didn't compile the driver in properly, but I guess you did that.. 00:56
Juerd But the disk does perform well. 00:57
45 MB/s is good, for these disks.
Limbic_Region nothing in dmesg ?
Juerd Limbic_Region: Nothing I interpret as bad. 00:58
rafl Juerd: How did you benchmark that?
putter dduncan: re F:S question, I'll be heading out to dinner in a few minutes. gone for perhaps an hour. 00:59
Juerd rafl: for i in f r a; do mdadm -$i /dev/md2 /dev/sda5; done; watch --interval=1 cat /proc/mdstat 01:00
Limbic_Region rafl - do you suspect an IO problem or you can't quantify the slowness? 01:01
iostat should show if the disks are getting slammed for some reason
Juerd Do you mean vmstat?
Limbic_Region no 01:02
Juerd If so, do you know how to interpret its output?
Limbic_Region I meant iostat
Juerd Does Debian have that?
Limbic_Region but vmstat is good too
Limbic_Region doesn't know as he isn't really a linux guy
Juerd 0 0 0 1625020 48344 304488 0 0 0 0 259 13 0 0 100 0
0 0 0 1625020 48344 304488 0 0 0 0 260 12 0 0 100 0
0 0 0 1625020 48344 304488 0 0 0 0 266 11 0 0 100 0
0 0 0 1625020 48344 304488 0 0 0 52 275 24 0 0 100 0
during idle
Limbic_Region iostat?
or vmstat?
both should be done for a collection interval of at least 5 seconds IMO 01:03
Juerd 2 0 0 1620416 48392 304792 0 0 0 244 304 195 90 10 0 0
1 0 0 1620416 48392 304792 0 0 0 0 267 174 86 14 0 0
1 0 0 1602164 48392 303180 0 0 0 20 315 248 94 6 0 0
1 0 0 1565584 48392 303180 0 0 0 0 258 11 95 5 0 0
Limbic_Region iostat 5 5
Juerd During perl Makefile.PL in pugs' tree
Limbic_Region or vmstat 5 5
Juerd Limbic_Region: vmstat 1
ok, vmstat 5 5 then... wait a sec
rafl Juerd: iostat is in sysstat.
Juerd 2;130 root@feather:~/pugs# vmstat 5 5 01:04
procs -----------memory---------- ---swap-- -----io---- --system-- ----cpu----
r b swpd free buff cache si so bi bo in cs us sy id wa
1 0 0 1622272 48560 304900 0 0 109 140 351 202 74 2 23 2
1 0 0 1612956 48572 303288 0 0 0 68 276 125 93 7 0 0
1 0 0 1522560 48592 303288 0 0 0 66 278 19 98 2 0 0
1 0 0 1613824 48592 304904 0 0 0 2 262 14 97 3 0 0
1 0 0 1548600 48604 304912 0 0 0 383 288 33 98 2 0 0
During perl Makefile.PL
Limbic_Region Juerd - this is for Solaris, but it should help deciphering www.adminschoice.com/docs/iostat_vm...ple:vmstat 01:05
Juerd If you don't mind, my mind is terribly overloaded. I can't learn now
I appreciate the pointer 01:06
iostat shows close to 100% user cpu load 01:07
Almost none system
That should indicate a non-io problem, right?
Also almost none iowait
Limbic_Region well, it is hard lining up your columns but it looks like you aren't cpu idle
does debian have top?
Juerd It does 01:08
If you want, you can log in on feather
Limbic_Region if I read that column correctly - you were 0 percent idle 4 out of the 5 samplings
that's not good
Juerd I can provide you with root access if you want to help fight the problem
Limbic_Region ok -
Juerd You have root access through sudo 01:09
Limbic_Region that's scary
Juerd And indeed, the CPU wasn't idle.
Limbic_Region sudo bash
Juerd What is scary?
Limbic_Region root access through sudo
Juerd Why?
I find it quite useful, because I can revoke the rights without changing the root password. 01:10
Limbic_Region well - I don't like having root access to any box I am not personally responsible for
Juerd Ah
Don't worry, there are no backups
Limbic_Region what's the hostname?
Juerd feather.perl6.nl
It's really weird to have a very slow box with 2 GB ram :) 01:11
Limbic_Region it doesn't have a very high load ATM
Juerd Limbic_Region: No, it's been idle because I was chatting with you :)
I have started a simple make clean 01:12
Limbic_Region no - it is still crazy cpu
oh
nevermind
Juerd And already the cpu load is almost through the roof.
Limbic_Region yeah - I am just watching top
Juerd Cpu(s): 98.8% us, 1.2% sy, 0.0% ni, 0.0% id, 0.0% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si
Insane
Limbic_Region perhaps unnice your make?
Juerd Though weird: sum up the values in the CPU column manually 01:13
Just estimate
I get nowhere near 100
Oh, now I do, now that find is busy
I started make
Limbic_Region well, everything points to being cpu bound 01:14
Juerd Yeah, but how does that make sense? 01:15
It's a 2.8 GHz CPU
And how to solve it :|
Limbic_Region that part I don't know - and I don't have time to help, got to go call my Dad 01:16
Juerd Okay; thanks much for your help so far
Limbic_Region Juerd - if it is still a problem tomorrow I will try to actually try to isolate the problem 01:17
good luck
01:18 Cryptic_K joined
dduncan putter, about env.t ... 01:27
when I'm in Pugs' root directory (with a copy of Test.pm sitting in my cwd), and run ./pugs t/magicals/env.t ... all 11 tests pass
if I'm in t/magicals (with a copy of Test.pm in my cwd), and run ../../pugs env.t, then all but the first 6 tests fail ... 01:28
in the latter case, it seems that the temp file is being written in pugs' own dir, while it is attempting to be read from the magicals dir (the cwd) 01:29
when I'm in Pugs' root directory, pugs own dir and the cwd are the same, so all the tests pass
neither of these scenarios matches my smoke, so I'm not sure what happened there
putter lol. I was so hopeful until that last line. ;) 01:30
Juerd I'm very tired
dduncan I'm normally in pugs' root dir when running make smoke
Juerd I don't know if I should drive home :|
Can't think clearly
dduncan sleep where you are? 01:31
putter food, drink ;)
rhesa sugar
putter lol 01:32
dduncan putter, I don't know what's causing it as yet, but running the current pugs shell leads to incessant beeping, like an unprintable character keeps getting output
this happened a few days ago, then went away when I fixed the non-delete problem, and now it's back.
01:33 wolverian joined
dduncan its return would coincide with the last 16-20 hours of commits 01:33
putter sigh. perhaps, as you mentioned earlier, r8840
dduncan yes, but I'm not sure its that one at fault
is anyone else here not using readline and/or can reproduce that symptom? 01:34
okay, I'm out for c 15 min
er, first I'll undo just that shell change and see if it has an effect ... 01:35
putter sounds good 01:36
I'll run a full smoke/js/pir spread over dinner.
oh, what was your F::S question? 01:37
dduncan a minute ... 01:38
before I rewrote Spec.pm, it was assuming that someone who used File::Spec would automatically see the exported functions of other modules that File::Spec uses, like File::Spec::* 01:39
putter yes
dduncan as if "is export" put things in the global namespace by default
is that supposed to happen? 01:40
I would have thought it only exported into the context where it was required/used
which would be Spec.pm, and not the user of Spec.pm
putter re is that supposed to happen?, my understanding is not.
dduncan my rewrite explicitly re-exported all the functions, which made it work 01:41
but I'm wondering if there was something in the perl 6 spec that said this was actually supposed to export into global, and my change just covered up a core bug
putter no, I think you did the right thing. 01:42
p6 will need more flexible re/export, but I think that's on the todo list. 01:43
Juerd Feather's problem is a memory problem 01:44
With other (less) memory, it runs fast.
But how to solve it :|
rafl Don't use any memory at all if it's getting faster with less memory? 01:45
putter I'm double checking, but I'm pretty sure your "export to global" is not intended.
s/your//
wolverian Juerd: ran a ram check yet?
Juerd wolverian: Have none 01:46
dduncan okay, I
will be away for 15
Juerd And without bootable CD's, I'm not going to run one either
rafl Juerd: There are several packaged for Debian.
wolverian Juerd: memtest86 is designed to run from a bootable floppy/cd
Juerd wolverian: No floppy, no cd. 01:47
rafl: I don't dare running one if I have no alternative means of booting.
rafl Juerd: You can boot if with $your_favourite_bootloader
wolverian Juerd: heh, install it on the HD then. debian has a package that should do the right thing (tm)
putter the dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S11.html "Importation" example suggests not.
rafl Juerd: There are also programs that run in userspace like memtester. 01:48
putter google: "is export" site:dev.perl.org :)
Juerd rafl: Are those any good?
putter dinner. bbl. hopefully with some smokes.
Juerd The boot loader thing is what I'm scared about. Userspace is fine
rafl Juerd: memtest works well. 01:49
Juerd Dear ASUS, "Latest beta bios" is NOT a good changelog entry.
Especially not if it's the ONLY changelog entry, for the last 5 releases 01:50
"The CMX1024-3200C2 is a 1024 MByte DDR SDRAM DIMM designed for extreme speed and is one of the 01:53
fastest 1 GByte modules available."
Yeah, that's why it was so expensive, and that's why I bought it for that other box that never happened
But the speed isn't quite showing :|
02:01 Amnesiac joined
Juerd Manually setting memory timings appears to help 02:02
Last time I ever did that was on my 386/387 machine.
Insert lots of profanity here.
Hm, no 02:04
Had the wrong module installed
02:05 autrijus joined, autrijus is now known as audreyt
audreyt dduncan: try r8870 for your libreadline (really emulated by libedit on Tiger)? 02:05
02:05 vel joined
audreyt (C language)-- # no module system 02:06
D++ # sane module system
wolverian graphviz++ # eternal fun 02:08
chronoa.dy.fi/~wolverian/reboot-languages.svg # here is a graph from another channel that maps users to languages. should I run it here? :)
audreyt go ahead :) 02:12
rafl votes yes
dduncan I'm currently running makefile.pl; will run make shortly 02:13
make 02:14
make error; rl_catch_signals undeclared 02:15
I think we were going to disable use of readline for systems like mine
audreyt mm 02:17
but Makefile.PL did compile for you?
dduncan yes
and the readline link was not disabled this time 02:18
audreyt okie 02:19
Juerd I'm getting insane
rafl Juerd: What's up this time?
Juerd I have one RAM module with which it boots fast and normal 02:20
Three with which it does not.
And I don't know what to do about it
Juerd starts to cry
dduncan audreyt, it may be simplest to simply disable readline on any system whose version doesn't implement those signal things, as was done 24 hours ago 02:21
rafl Juerd: Maybe a RAM slot is broken?
dduncan and/or if the version fails to have something we know is a new feature
Juerd Hm, two that run fast, but not together.
rafl: Tried different slots :)
dduncan then readline is used if it exists and is newish; it is not used otherwise 02:22
audreyt dduncan: yeah, I've committed a Makefile.PL 02:23
please rerun Makefile.PL
and see if Makefile still contains -DPUGS_HAVE_READLINE
r8871
dduncan pulling
makefilepling 02:24
the messages did not say that readline was disabled 02:25
but looking at makefile anyway ...
the makefile also does contain -DPUGS_HAVE_READLINE 02:26
so it wasn't shut off
audreyt weird. 02:27
dduncan I can try cleaning, if that makes any difference 02:28
audreyt can you trace Makefile.PL a bit?
that probably doesn't
the line that does this is line 178
and 631
dduncan I'm already looking at 178
audreyt the code snippet on line 178 should not compile+run on your system
but in any case you can save it under test.hs 02:29
and see if "ghc --make test.hs" works
alternatively, remove the -v0 in r644 (change it to -v3 perhaps) 02:30
s/r644/line 644/
and see if some useful debug info can be obtained
(I'll brb)
dduncan I removed the "-v0", 02:31
putter audreyt: why not go back to the full test snippet which is known to work?
dduncan I would concur
removing the "-v0", caused a few extra output lines to appear near the top: 02:33
Chasing modules from: Setup.lhs Compiling Main ( Setup.lhs, Setup.o ) Linking ... ghc-pkg: cannot find package plugins Chasing modules from: /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.hs Compiling Main ( /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.hs, /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.o ) Linking ... Chasing modules from: /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.hs Compiling Main ( /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.hs, /tmp/pugs-tmp-26787.o ) Linking ...
I will also mention that a haskelish error message did used to appear there when the test was working, yesterday
instead of the a-ok we see here 02:34
I will try making the 178 test longer, like the one from the other day ...
putter the version in -r8839 should work 02:35
audreyt ok, reverting to it. 02:36
committed as r8872. 02:39
dduncan I made my own revert and am running it
fyi, it seems to be just _rl_catch_sigwinch that it's complaining about here 02:40
audreyt indeed, though that might be a good thing
dduncan and that seems to have worked, mine that is
audreyt good. the reason I left it out from the probe was that I found out in systems with new (gnu) readline, sigwinch shouldn't be disabled 02:41
putter smoke of r8869 is up
audreyt but in Makefile.PL probing it's a good way to separate gnu and nongnu readlines
dduncan yes indeed 02:42
my own change, deltad with r8871 fixed the problem
audreyt dduncan: try trunk r8873?
dduncan I will now replace it with yours, for synchronizing 02:43
in my case I just changed the makefile 02:44
now I have pulled yours
audreyt putter: ok, one-line summary of the core bug(s) that needs to be addressed for the ext/ failures?
I know of the @array_of_spans[$index].stringify problem iblech mentioned in the commit log 02:45
putter the shortened test also didnt have a call to readline, yes? so control may never have actually hit the library. perhaps ghc just optimized it all away?
at least one of the two flags was just an extern integer. if the other one was too... 02:46
audreyt putter: indeed that might be the case.
yup
dduncan with your version, readline is disabled , ... now making
the shell also works with your version 02:47
so that problem's seemingly resolved
audreyt yay
Juerd Great
In the process, one dimm got fucked up when I dropped it on the floor 02:48
There goes EUR 80
BUT
With a lot of manual hacking in the bios, I have now one of the new dimms and both two old dimms together
With usable speed
(It boots within a minute, instead of in 8 minutes) 02:49
dduncan fyi, the only significant difference between my version and yours is that I just left the 'compile only' function, while you changed it to 'compile and run'; the actual haskell code (from r8839) was identical
and I didn't change shell.hs
Juerd And the total is 2048 now, I just lost the opportunity to upgrade two other boxes with 512 each :|
Ah well
dduncan so the compile alone with sigwinch will fail and result in no readline linking
audreyt dduncan: yup, and that's what we want
dduncan right ... I read the diff backwards ... your version was the one not running it 02:50
putter *** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Array::Const> as in ext/Set-Infinite/t/set-infinite-functional.t
also ext/Perl6-Container-Array/t/array-lazy.t 02:52
and *** Cannot 'shift' scalar as in ext/Perl6-Container-Array/t/array-operations.t 02:55
I think that's the full set.
audreyt k 02:56
rafl Juerd: Great, thanks!
Juerd Putting it in the rack now 02:59
putter I'm wrong - there's a fourth failure mode. curious. ext/Set-Infinite/t/set-infinite-recurrence.t and ext/Set-Infinite/t/set-infinite.t are all not ok Infinite Loop. So that could well be a Set::Infinite bug, not a core bug. 03:01
curious. don't know how I missed that. just not in my log. ah well. sorry. 03:03
audreyt it's fine, as I just addressed it. 03:05
all Span tests now pass.
Juerd feather is up
I'm going home now 03:06
putter Juerd++
03:06 Bit-Man joined
Juerd Or, if it turns out I'm unable to drive safely, to the first hotel I encounter. 03:06
audreyt Juerd++ 03:07
04:01 AM (CET) - Upgrade finished. It took 6 hours and cost a lot; don't ask.
Juerd++ Juerd++
03:08 Cryptic_K joined 03:09 audreyt joined
putter Juerd: caffeine? cold water on face? 03:09
03:09 svnbot6 joined
putter svnbot6++ 03:10
welcome back, you were missed.
?eval 3
dduncan now pulled 8875 03:17
03:17 vell joined
dduncan make complete 03:21
now smoking r8875 03:26
putter puzzles over what the Var.hs change means...
dduncan speed seems normal 03:27
I should know in about 30 min whether all the ext/ pass or not
er, don't die that is
audreyt putter: the Eval.Var findSub dispatch system was written before S12's dispatch order was specced clearly 03:28
back then there were no clear distinction between single and multiple dispatch
and so both were lumped in a single findSub loop 03:29
so "$x.foo.bar" is no different from bar(foo($x))
(rather, bar(foo($x:):))
but MMD dictates that you have to find which of the candidate &bar to be dispatched to 03:30
before you fully evaluate its argument foo($x:) under its specified context
obra audreyt: what's your favorite win32 perl these days?
(perl5)
audreyt obra: I'm not on win32 anymore, but I hear camelpack is quite nice
obra I'll have a look 03:31
audreyt putter: but you can't find out which candidates of &bar to dispatch to, unless you know the type of foo($x)
obra is poking at a new tabletpc
audreyt putter: that's a chicken-egg problem
putter: so I wrote a tiny type inferencer to guess a type of an Exp without actually evaluating its side effects
putter: the idea is that foo($x) is first inferred, then uses that inferred type to decide which bar() to call, and finally evaluate foo($x) in full 03:32
putter (call bbiab
audreyt using the argument type expected by bar()
but the infer engine didn't handle indexed expressions well
$x[0] etc
in any case, that tiny inferencer is obsolete under the new (November 2005) S12 and docs/notes/multimethods.pod 03:33
which would be implemented at PIL layer
the inferencer fix I just committed for indexed expressions 03:34
just checks if both the indice and indexee are simple expressions (i.e. things that can be evaluated without side effects) 03:35
putter back
audreyt and if so, it just evaluates them to find out their actual type
end of explanation
(feel free to haddockify this)
putter got it.
::)
ok, will do 03:36
audreyt mixing return type polymorphism ("want") and MMD naturally leads to bizzare ambiguities 03:37
and I'm happy that S12-Nov05 addressedthis
03:41 grayson` joined, grayson` left
dduncan okay, so both ext/Perl6-[Container-Array|Value-List] died during the smokes 03:46
of 8875 03:47
03:47 evalbot_8875 joined
dduncan as did Set-Infinite 03:47
same reasons putter mentioned 03:49
putter in, r8876 03:51
svnbot6 r8876 | putter++ | Eval/Var.hs: added audreyt's description of the old findSub dispatch system.
dduncan what did that fix for you? 03:52
putter We do that a couple of times and pugs will be wizzily documented.
dduncan that was just documentation?
putter re what did that fix for you?, my brow is no longer furrowed in puzzlement
:) yes
dduncan when I first saw you did an update, I thought it was for the ext/ failures 03:53
03:53 SamB joined
putter takes a moment to look at S12... 03:53
audreyt lunch, bbiab 03:54
putter audreyt: current state?
summary of?
dduncan: nope. I think I'm done with serious work for the evening. 03:56
dduncan well ext/Span did not die
putter you mean span.t ?
audreyt putter: still can't quite narrow down the failure modes of the const VArray bug
dduncan both span.t and unicode.t did not die, as they did in 8864 03:57
audreyt will continue after lunch; once it's there I'll review/resume chglogging
dduncan I think they died before
audreyt and then push out preflight
also a worrisome heisenbug
t/rules/from_perl6_rules/capture.t
dduncan at least, a sudden switch from green to red often means a death
putter audreyt: ok, thanks. 03:58
audreyt fails tests 1..17 20..22 24..29 ~half of the time here
PGE sefaulting it seems
dduncan and hovering over one of the red squares in my browser shows 'stub' rather than a fail message, which suggests death
audreyt but half of thetime it's just fine
putter hmm.
audreyt suspecting external parrot's CGP switch
trying to disable it now
(i.e. change parrot -C to just parrot) 04:00
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audreyt doesn't seem to help. 04:01
anyway, lunch first :) bbiab 04:02
putter & 04:03
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putter dduncan: yeah, all died except for the infinite sets, which, well, infinitely looped. those tests are now commented out. so if spam, err, span isn't dying (remember when spam was simply an obscure canned meat product?), progress. 04:04
dduncan okay, besides the 3 ext/ I mentioned, all others did not die 04:05
the 3 being P-C-A, P-V-L, and S-I 04:06
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putter ok. i svn up'ed to 8876 and am poking at capture.t. one thing to do might be to walk the tests which were failing, with ./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/... , and make sure the "fixed" ones are entirely passing. random thought. 04:11
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wolverian oops. 04:14
buu evalbot_8875: ?join #buubot
putter dduncan: so, setCatchSigwinch isn't used in Shell.hs any more, but still is in the Makefile.hs test snippet. want to see if we can get rid of it there? 04:18
dduncan no
putter lol
ok
dduncan we left the sigwinch in the makefile on purpose, as a test to whether any existing readline is Tiger's broken version or not 04:19
putter suspects it was not setCatchSigwinch which was the missing ingredient of the shorter test, but rather the readline call.
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dduncan apparently, when the broken readline is linked into pugs, there were issues with the shell, such as incessant beeping 04:20
changing just the makefile so readline isn't linked in fixed this
putter re we left the sigwinch in the makefile on purpose, err, no. the test snippet was intended to mirror the Shell.hs usage. the shorter test ceased to do that in several respects, and ceased to work (ie, fail). the makefile should, eventually if not tonight, again reflect the current Shell.hs usage. which means setCatchSignals, _and readline_ but no setCatchSigwinch. 04:21
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dduncan whatever is done, the shell has to actually work on Tiger with its default pseudo-readline 04:22
that is, pugs should just work by default on a user's Tiger install even when they didn't upgrade readline 04:23
it works right now
putter right. I hypothesize the current snippet's behavior will be unchanged by the removal of the setCatchSigwinch. and that this is the right thing because Shell.hs no longer uses setCatchSigwinch, and the test snippet should mirror Shell.hs needs. 04:24
dduncan well, don't commit any such changes until after I've tested them 04:25
audreyt dduncan: you can take out line 182 in Makefile.PL
." setCatchSigwinch False\n"
and run Makefile.PL again
putter ;) thus the: dduncan: so, setCatchSigwinch isn't used in Shell.hs any more, but still is in the Makefile.hs test snippet. want to see if we can get rid of it there?
dduncan yes I can
audreyt and inspect Makefile to see whether PUGS_HAVE_READLINE is still no there
dduncan however, I"m going to let my current smoke complete first 04:26
audreyt if it's not, then commit Makefile.PL sans that line :)
sure
(though running Makefile.PL does not affect smoke)
so you can do both in parallel
brb
dduncan I should get to this in about 1 hour
putter has found updating Makefile.PL not only mangles smoke, but an require a complete rebuild. :( 04:27
dduncan I prefer to play it safe myself
putter s/mangles/can mangle/
but not a running smoke I guess. 04:28
dduncan mine is currently on t/oo 04:29
putter could always make a second copy of pugs....
dduncan I"m not that impatient 04:30
putter but there's nothing really pressing about this. prerelease is likely still an hour or few away.
dduncan then we're okay
putter oh, and there's still lots-o changelog'ing to be done.
dduncan I've done what I can on that front 04:31
while the smoke is happening, I'm changelogging one of my own projects that will be released simultaneously with pugs
putter audreyt: is that with external or embedded parrot? 04:33
k
audreyt: with external parrot, I am unable to generate a capture.t failure. 15+ runs. half on pure 8868, half with the new Var.hs and Shell.hs. embedded parrot stopped working entirely for me a month or few back. but local system changes occurred (new libc, etc) during the same time, so that may just be me. 04:41
04:42 justatheory joined 04:45 justatheory joined
putter smoking pil2js is not a quick thing... 04:47
clkao zzzzz 04:48
audreyt okay, another ext/ failures down (P::V::L), two more (P::C::A and S::I) to go 04:54
svnbot6 r8877 | audreyt++ | * Perl6::Value::List - add "is export" to multis is sufficient to make all its tests pass.
audreyt meanwhile releases M::Sig 0.53 04:59
putter notes two failures aren't _quite_ identical: 05:04
*** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Array> in current ext/Perl6-Value-List/t/array-lazy.t
Daveman Hey everyone :)
putter *** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Array::Const> in current ext/Set-Infinite/t/set-infinite-functional.t
hello Daveman 05:05
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putter past end of day for me. how useful would people find a r8869 smoke-js? I've one running, sort of almost done. Wondering whether to stay up for it. 05:14
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meppl guten morgen 05:39
putter r8869 smoke-js up. 05:40
guten nacht &
BeoTW finger meppl 05:45
dduncan my r8875 smoke for haskell/darwin is now up 06:00
showing only 172 failures of 10,936 06:01
also, there was no magicals/env.t failure reported this time ... which I couldn't reproduce before anyway 06:03
the only failures seen now are those 3 ext/ distros 06:04
now that that's done, I will look into that Makefile.PL simplification thing ...
I tried removing line 182 of Makefile.PL ... 06:07
the one containing: ." setCatchSigwinch False\n"
it is making now
the Makefile.PL output does *not* say that readline is disabled
when I put that line back, it *does* say that readline is disabled 06:09
so, audreyt and putter, removing the sigwinch line does break things 06:10
now checking r8877 06:23
it appears that, under ext/Perl6-Value-List/, t/array-lazy-overloaded has gone infinite-loopy, rather than just dying 06:25
(it died 2 revs back)
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gaal $morning! 06:39
tewk gaal: morning, looks like audrey, dducan, and putter just about have a preview ready 06:40
gaal cool! i just svn upped, am making a clean build and popping into the shower. 06:41
06:45 nothingmuch joined
gaal embedded parrot is still broken on colinux. 07:10
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dduncan morning 07:16
gaal hey dduncan
dduncan so, afaik, all tests pass on normal haskell but 3 ext/ distros 07:17
of those, 2 die and one hangs
as of r 8877
as of r8875, the hang was a die
gaal on colinux, extrernal parrot doesn't seem to work at all! 07:18
dduncan I've personally never been testing with anything but the pure normal haskell ... no options linked in at all
07:18 BakedB joined
dduncan is 'colinux' short for something? 07:19
gaal dduncan: cooperative linux. it's a win32 process with a special driver that lets it run linux at very close to native speeds. 07:20
dduncan I C
that's fairly new, isn't it?
gaal a year maybe?
from 2004 actually 07:21
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gaal twice as old as pugs :) 07:21
hachi and no longer maintained sadly, last I saw 07:22
gaal hachi: I just got a note from the original author saying that it is, but slowly because he has other projects. 07:24
2.6.10 isn't *that* bad. 07:25
hachi no, it's not... I use it at my day job 07:26
gaal oh! external parrot isn't even looked up in PARROT_PATH, no wonder it doesn't work 07:28
(I don't have parrot installed, just built in a homedir tree)
shouldn't it also look there, though?
in fact it should probably look there first... 07:29
audreyt .rehi 07:31
gaal yo!
audreyt resumes releng after lunch
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gaal oh, darn, I had an old parrot in my PATH :-( 07:38
audreyt: should PARROT_PATH take precedence?
removing the old parrot made it work :) 07:39
audreyt gaal: I think so, yeah
gaal ok, trying parrot emb first 07:40
whee, they both work now. 07:41
fixing the search order.
audreyt whee
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kattana_ weeeeeeeeeee 07:50
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svnbot6 r8878 | gaal++ | * change search order of external parrot, giving PARROT_PATH 08:04
r8878 | gaal++ | precedence over PATH so that an old executable installed in the
r8878 | gaal++ | system doesn't get in the way of a new one.
gaal now, to do the same for embedded parrot. would that be in the makefile?
audreyt Makefile.PL you mean? 08:05
gaal audreyt: my imperative style in haskell is clunky, do you have a suggestion for how to improve it?
audreyt: yeah :)
audreyt let me look... (just done with P::C::A triaging, only S::Infinite to go) 08:06
gaal oh, style can wait for after the release :-)
hmm. Makefile.PL *looks* like it's doing the right thing for embedded parrot, but experiment showed it did not. 08:07
svnbot6 r8879 | audreyt++ | * triaging of Perl6::Container::Array finishes.
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svnbot6 r8880 | audreyt++ | * ditto for Perl6::Value::List - I gave up fixing from_single and force_todo'ed 08:20
r8880 | audreyt++ | related tests.
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dduncan pulled r8880, and now making 08:26
with P-C-A, nothing dies now, but one test fails 08:30
t/array-operations.....FAILED test 26
with P-V-L, all tests pass/todo 08:32
audreyt ok 08:33
gaal I'll have a smoke of 8880 up sometime... at t/builtins/control_flow now.
audreyt retestnig array-operations
gaal (that's pretty much in the beginning)
dduncan it sure is 08:34
gaal how long does an ext/-less smoke take nowadays?
dduncan I think about 2/3 of the time of an ext-with smoke
for me, both together take 2 hours
audreyt ~30min here
dduncan normal haskell runcore 08:35
audreyt ditto
dduncan audreyt, what kind of hardware do you have?
mind you, mine's 3.5 years old
audreyt mine's pentium-M laptop
strangely, test 26 worksforme
dduncan its merely dual-1.0 ghz G4
I'll try running that test by itself 08:36
gaal dduncan: you do know about test concurrency, yes? if you have a dual cpu box, that can speed things up.
audreyt gaal: dduncan reported the other day that concurrency doesn't quite work for him
gaal oh :(
dduncan well, I set my process count to 2 in config.yml long ago, but it doesn't seem to do anything
audreyt oh, it requires SMP?
dduncan according to top, only 1 pugs process ran at a time 08:37
gaal it doesn't require it, but the gains are very low w/o it
must have bitrotted: it's been a while since I had an smp machine to play with
audreyt we don't have a MacBook-powered committer yet 08:38
ok, I've finished this round of triaging here 08:39
lypanov ummmmacbooks
audreyt I'm making smoke now
svnbot6 r8881 | audreyt++ | * Finish triaging for Set::Infinite.
gaal we should add a progress bar to the harness. :-) 08:41
audreyt good idea :)
gaal: have some cycles to catch up the remaining chglogging?
gaal sure
audreyt woot
I'll move back to Taipei from Tamsui
the MRT takes ~2hr
so maybe a preflight tarball once I hit taipei 08:42
dduncan not ok 26 - kv # Failed test (../t/array-operations.t line 98, column 3-27)# Expected: '1'# Actual: 'undef'
audreyt will work on other polishing / sanity check on MRT
dduncan that is the one that failed for me ... it did not say todo
gaal audreyt: if nobody had edited the chlog after me, you and stevan have to add your piln/mm stuff
audreyt gaal: sure, will do
gaal cool
audreyt dduncan: r8882 08:44
svnbot6 r8882 | audreyt++ | * force_todo an erratic feailure in P::C::A as reported by dduncan.
dduncan I have pulled r8881, currently retesting Set-
now pulled r8882 08:46
Set-Infinite passes all its tests
now retrying container 08:47
that all passe 08:48
so I'm not aware of any more pugs test failures
audreyt excellent 08:49
that means we probably have a green tree now
dduncan since its almost 1am, I don't plan to stay up to smoke/test any release candidate now
audreyt nod 08:50
dduncan if, for whatever reason, that happens in around 10 hours, I can do it then
audreyt I'll see you tomorrow :)
dduncan otherwise I'll just smoke the actual cpan release
audreyt k 08:51
sleep well
svnbot6 r8883 | audreyt++ | * capture.t: disable the erratically-failing tests.
r8884 | gaal++ | ChangeLog to 8884 09:17
gaal smoke up, has errors. looking 09:20
# m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-...8b922.html
they're (almost) all parrot related crashes it seems 09:22
it may be difficult to make the first test in t/unspecced/times.t fit all sizes 09:29
it tends to fail on my machine 09:30
gotta go for ~2hr 09:32
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svnbot6 r8885 | audreyt++ | * stdrules.t: skip_rest the erratically-failing tests. 09:44
r8885 | audreyt++ | (/me praises city-wide (albeither intermittent) wireless network)
audreyt hm, my brain-autocompletion sees "eit" in "albeit" and completetd "either" 09:45
wolverian heh. 09:47
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gaal albethernet? 10:46
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nothingmuch FYI: www.osdc.org.il/schedule.html 12:16
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gaal so, how's the takeoff taking off? I'm off to grab some lunch but will be back soon for preflight help 13:54
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Juerd audreyt: Could you make darcs start niced please? 14:41
I'll renice the running process
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rafl Juerd: Do we still have performance problems? 14:43
Juerd rafl: No
rafl: But darcs runs continuously, and the CPU still is a simple pentium 4
darcs uses close to 100% cpu 14:44
(darcs tag, that is)
rafl Ah.. 14:45
stevan_ audreyt: ping
Juerd wonders if darcs is used for anything 14:50
webmind what is it ? 14:52
Juerd A revision system
webmind k 14:53
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lypanov i think its just a backup system no? 14:54
Juerd I suspect it's nostalgia 14:55
stevan_ lypanov: no, its a VCS written in Haskell
Juerd: I think you are correct, I dont think we have many Darcs users left 14:56
lypanov stevan_: yeah... i know
stevan_: i mean. its a back vcs only. not the main one
lypanov uses darcs principally :P
stevan_ lypanov: oh,.,. I see
:)
lypanov grins
stevan_ lypanov: yeah I am not sure anyone but you uses it then :)
lypanov giggles
i know plenty :)
i don't use the pugs darcs tho 14:57
i learnt svk recently anyways
stevan_ lypanov: no, I mean for pugs
lypanov not even i use it for pugs ;)
stevan_ knows a few non-pugs-hacking darcs users :)
lypanov ;)
stevan_ adds lypanov to the list ;)
lypanov ;) 14:58
lypanov is using svk for his new projects tho
stevan_ svk is very nice :) 14:59
clkao++
lypanov agrees
i chatted to him 6 months back and was more than impressed, but couldn't get the darn thing installed :P
now i turn around to find .dmg's that Just Work 15:00
stevan_ yeah, I had the same issues,.. the .dmg made my post-Tiger-upgrade-svn-install job much easier too :)
lypanov grins 15:01
rafl pugs tells me: Could not find module `plugins'. But ghc-pkg list shows plugins. Any pointers? 15:03
robkinyon wishes he could use a .dmg 15:05
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SamB rafl: pugs says that, or the configure/build stuff says that? 15:22
rafl SamB: ghc called by Makefile.PL. 15:25
SamB: It looks to me like try_compile is used wrong.
audreyt rafl: that might be the case, yes 15:26
rafl SamB: You normally call it try_compile($code, $ghc, $run) where $run is optional. But for the plugins package it's called like try_compile($code, $ghc, '-package', 'plugins')
audreyt I'll prod dons again
svnbot6 r8886 | audreyt++ | * some light editing of ChangeLog
SamB what is $run? 15:27
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audreyt $run is a misfeature. 15:27
removed.
rafl++ 15:28
Juerd audreyt: Have you read my lines?
audreyt Juerd: yes, will do 15:29
svnbot6 r8887 | audreyt++ | * remove the $run misfeature in Makefile.PL's try_compile;
r8887 | audreyt++ | it was added to probe libreadline, but is not used anymore,
r8887 | audreyt++ | and furthermore interferes with hsplugins probing.
Juerd Thanks
15:29 Eimi joined
audreyt done 15:29
Juerd audreyt++ 15:30
rafl Can I build pugs against parrot without having a parrot executable installed? 15:32
(I have headers and libs, though)
audreyt: Thanks!
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audreyt rafl: maybe. not sure. probably yes 15:34
rafl tries 15:35
svnbot6 r8888 | audreyt++ | * bump version to 6.2.11.
rafl It should result in linking ./pugs to libparrot.so.$(SOVERSION) if it worked, right?
audreyt yup
rafl wonders how it knows which libparrot to use. 15:36
audreyt it asks parrot-config iirc
rafl I made parrot install both shared and static libraries.
audreyt nod
rafl Ah, parrot-config libparrot gives $(LIBPARROT_SHARED). 15:37
audreyt I'm dozing off already... will check back in 9hrs
I think I'll call for a round of general test for pre0
rafl The Makefile needs interpolate that somehow.
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wolverian hm, reading the "Haskell is not not ML" paper at lectures is a great way to speed up your learning. you really see how much more interesting the paper is than the lecture. :) 15:39
audreyt rofl
okay, pre0 up.
putter anyone going to osdc, please nag Beni Cherniavsky to get his "S-expression syntax for Python with 1st-class macros" stuff online. tnx ;)
audreyt 6.2.11-pre0 calls for test: xrl.us/jsza | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6 15:40
putter yay 15:40
audreyt and with that... goodnight :)
audreyt waves &
putter g'night audreyt
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putter I've never been clear on whether these represent a problem or not (nor on whether they are fixable): 15:52
Compiling Pugs.AST ( src/Pugs/AST.hs, dist/build/src/Pugs/AST.o )
/tmp/ghc21601.hc: In function `PugsziAST_zdwcharInc_entry':
/tmp/ghc21601.hc:39: warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size
Two more in Pugs.Lexer 15:53
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putter boom. build failure with r8888 (HEAD). 15:57
Building Pugs-6.2.10...
Build failed: 0 at util/build_pugs.pl line 86.
make: *** [pugs] Error 2
Command exited with non-zero status 2
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putter anyone successfully make'ed pre0? 15:58
gaal putter: just starting a build now.
could be the default heap size needs to be increased 15:59
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putter sometimes the preN's also get out of sync (local changes) vis svn HEAD 16:00
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gaal svn was not very busy when audrey created the image, so probably not this time 16:00
but when you build a pre, you get a fresh config.yml
putter ok, pre0 has a slightly different makefile than 8888 16:01
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putter hmm, as a separate issue, pre0 has a somewhat pruned file tree. was the exclusion of ./debian and examples/cookbook, and the other stuff, intentional? 16:02
of simply MANIFEST oversights? 16:03
gaal: btw, I hope I didnt leave ChangeLog too messy. I was separating the "grovel over the log and snag stuff for log" task from the "make log readable" task. and never did the latter. 16:05
rafl: ./debian should be in the release, yes? 16:06
rafl putter: No
gaal putter: me either :) audreyt++ seems to've done that :-)
putter rafl: ok. isn't. 16:07
gaal: do I have to do anything to have changed config.yml take effect? uncommented the heap line. simply make fails with the same error. hmm, 8885 worked. svn log'ing... 16:09
gaal putter: yes, perl Makefile.PL again.
putter: fwiw, I'm now in Pugs.Parser and no errors yet :)
putter it did the first compile pass, created the .a, and then boom. 16:10
ok, will try Makefile.PL
gaal that does sound like a heap exhaustion problem
though those usually give evacuate or other errors 16:11
putter I also note r8888 is still saying its 6.2.10, despite r8888 ("change to 6.2.11") 16:12
gaal whoops, I got the same error as you. 16:13
stracing. 16:14
putter 500m heap has no effect
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gaal I think I fixed it, testing. 16:18
putter ? 16:19
gaal it created the .a with 6.2.10, but make looked for 6.2.11.a and exited after not finding it.
putter ah, Pugs.cabal.in ? 16:21
gaal fixed.
svnbot6 r8889 | gaal++ | bump version number to 6.2.11 in Pugs.cabal.in; this was what was
r8889 | gaal++ | causing preflight 0 to fail.
gaal strace++ :) 16:23
putter gaal++ :)
gaal that's kind of you to say, after I sent you on a wild moose chase :) 16:24
putter Though it's kind of sad that our system is so opaque that the easiest thing to do is to go all the way around it and look at it's interaction with the os.
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gaal we rely on a lot of existing stuff... to achieve cleanliness with our level of variety would mean implementing a lot of that ourselves 16:26
putter chasing wild goose/moose - caveat - safe distance from a mad goose is order 10 m. and they will generally flee. but low order 100 m may not keep you safe from a pissed moose. and a moose chased is likely to be pissed. 16:28
gaal Attention Preflight team: if you want to test out pre0, please s/6\.2\.10/6.2.11/ in your Pugs.cabal.il *before* running make. If you forgot and get a build error, please rm src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs and pugs && perl Makefile.PL && make 16:29
gaal never meta moose he didn't like
putter "it is now safe to move around the Cabal"
;)
oh, *groan* # meta moose 16:30
that's reaaally bad
gaal There was once a Metamoose Gaalery 16:31
putter ?
gaal a gaalery of metamoose. what? :) 16:32
if we meet in YAPC::NA this year, I'll show you :)
putter oh, oh, oh, ouch
gaal ouch is what I just said. hitting the power button with my knee wasn't so smart. :( 16:34
putter :/
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putter stevan: is the exclusion of misc/Perl-MetaModel/lib/Perl from the release intentional? 16:36
oh, its an empty directory. 16:37
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putter which leaves the disappearance of examples/cookbook as the big oddity 16:38
gaal smoke entered. 16:39
putter 'Edit your settings in config.yml." still seems excessively imperative. there is really no need to edit config.yml. 16:42
gaal go ahead and soften the phrasing 16:45
putter ok 16:46
Juerd Someone just changed all /does something/ to "do something" in POD I wrote.
putter pil2js has a lot of regression. but I guess not something to worry about for this release. 16:47
Juerd No longer "Creates a new object and returns it.", but "Create a new object and return it."
Now *that* is excessively imperative.
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lypanov it doesn't read well at all for documentation... 16:50
Juerd It's just plain wrong. 16:51
lypanov yeah
Juerd Documentation isn't comments that translates what the code does. 16:52
[this method] Creates a new object and returns it.
The guy who changed that apparently wasn't aware of that linguistic implication.
putter so config.yml only contains _some_ settings. ie, no parrot or embedded info. ok...
Juerd What I don't get is that he *changed* my documentation.
putter welcome to anarchy ;) 16:53
Juerd I can imagine that one writes new documentation in that way, but not that one would actively go and screw existing documentation that is written according to widely used standards
SamB clearly, this guy is not lazy enough 16:54
Juerd I would change his documentation if he wrote it imperatively :)
I'm also not lazy in that respect.
SamB well, people with bad taste should be lazy
Juerd SamB++
putter gaal: how about something like 16:55
*** Default build config file created.
You can edit some settings in $filename (and then rerun Makefile.PL).
thoughts?
gaal putter: sounds good to me! 16:56
stevan putter: misc/Perl-MetaModel is a very old attempt at a p6 mm.. it is pretty much disposable
putter now, now. there are some schools of documentation writing in which the change is clearly the Right Thing(tm). I don't agree with them, but that isn't to say they don't have principled reasons for believing it, or that the editor didn't think they were correcting obvious problems. 16:58
stevan: ok. so that leaves only examples/cookbook as a possibly odd omission from pre0. 16:59
stevan putter: I guess so,.. I am without enough tuits to participate in releng right now :(
putter after this release is out, before the next, perhaps we should do some "spring cleaning".
stevan no doubt, a very very good idea 17:00
putter stevan: 's ok. $job++
(anyone needs a p5. py, rb, lisp, prolog, etc, hacker in the Boston area, email putter...;) 17:01
(dduncan also sounds like he could use some remote p5 work:)
s/use/also use/ 17:02
svnbot6 r8890 | putter++ | inc/PugsBuild/Config.pm: Changed 17:07
r8890 | putter++ | *** Default build config file created. Edit your settings in $filename.
r8890 | putter++ | to
r8890 | putter++ | *** Default build config file created.
r8890 | putter++ | You can edit some settings in $filename (then rerun Makefile.PL).
r8890 | putter++ | to make clear that editing is not required.
putter 30/30 skipped: BACKEND_PUGS does not support lazy lists yet depends lazy lists
err, what?
gaal that's the output of :depends, isn't it? 17:08
putter ahhhh
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svnbot6 r8891 | putter++ | lazy_lists.t: added a period to the skip message so the test log reads clearer. 17:13
putter is anyone currently actually using embedded parrot? 17:14
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putter if not, it could be worth adding a note to INSTALL "using external parrot is recommended for this release" 17:15
anyone at all using embedded parrot? or recently? 17:16
gaal putter: this build I'm smoking is embparrot 17:17
(...I hope :-)
ah, and there are crashes, I just noticed :(
t/rules/from_perl6_rules/prior.t
t/rules/from_perl6_rules/litvar.t 17:18
pugs: internal error: stg_ap_p_ret
putter gaal: you have a, err, "normal" platform? 17:19
gaal is colinux normal? :)
most of the time emparrot does work, these tests must be ram-hungry. 17:20
putter ah. my x86_64 has been segfaulting for a while, but a good default on such things is "it's just me". 17:22
anyone running vanilla linux/bsd (or even windows:) with embedded parrot?
re "is colinux normal?", err, no. 17:23
cdpruden builds with parrot embedded, but doesn't really run anything with that backend 17:24
gaal cdpruden: if you do "a"~~/a/, you're using PGE on parroy 17:25
*parrot
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putter cdpruden: could you do a ./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/rules/from_perl6_rules/prior.t and see if it works? 17:25
gaal putter: nope, parrot emb doesn't work on win (tried it)
cdpruden sure
putter tnx
if cdpruden's also goes boom, and perhaps even if it doesnt, it would seem an INSTALL commented is warranted. 17:26
cdpruden segfault on 8864; sorry, not on release yet (so maybe that doesn't help) debian
putter cdpruden++ thanks 17:27
cdpruden updating to see if release is any different
putter, still segfaults with the latest svn 17:30
gaal cdpruden: can you try all of t/rules to see if some pass?
cdpruden sure 17:31
gaal prove t/rules
(assuming you have HARNESS_PERL=./pugs and PERL6LIB=blib6/lib )
svnbot6 r8892 | putter++ | INSTALL: "Using embedded parrot is NOT recommended with this release (6.2.11)." 17:34
gaal m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-...40c83.html 17:35
613 files 11109 test cases: 10519 ok, 590 failed, 1457 todo, 1109 skipped
clkao hm,, changelog doesn't have new backend jsperl5 ?
gaal the failed are mostly parrot related.
clkao: please add anything you thing should be there
clkao ok.. but i am going to sleep
putter gaal: audreyt was seeing parrot instability even with external parrot. so I think parrot is just flakey with this release, and minimizing the flakiness by recommending against embedded is the right thing, regardless of additional cdpruden results. 17:36
gaal that request also goes out to putter, stevan, iblech, kane, rafl, fdglock, etc :-)
okay. the only other problem on my machine is times, for which it is apparently too fast. 17:37
other than that, I'm good for release. 17:38
svnbot6 r8893 | putter++ | Makefile.PL: "Linking against Parrot is NOT recommended with this release 6.2.11."
putter INSTALL should probably say test-pir instead of pirtest, but let's punt, as "why expose an api if it may change in the next release". 17:39
gaal: your undef.t failures were rules related? 17:40
gaal putter: yes. 17:41
putter is the times.t problem easily fixable?
gaal it's a rule that doesn't match. I think it's one of my first commits to pugs :-)
putter :) 17:42
gaal putter: the times.t problem is that there's a busy loop used as a subsecond sleep. of course it's system dependent.
I don't know of a good way to fix it
theorbtwo use Time::HiRes. 17:43
putter gaal: if you bump the loop up an order of magnitude, to 10_000, does it pass for you then? 17:44
theorbtwo: it's a <look at time> for 1..1000 { 1+1 } <see if time changed> 17:45
err, see if times() changed.
pasteling "cdpruden" at 69.212.29.10 pasted "putter, from_perl6_rules -- all failed w/ embedded parrot" (111 lines, 5.2K) at sial.org/pbot/15682 17:47
putter thanks cdpruden.
gaal putter: it passes, yes, but that would be gratituously slow on slow machines.
cdpruden np
gaal hey wait! eairlier today embparrot didn't always segfault for me. why is it doing that now? 17:48
putter ok, a 5-10 sec difference at 1GHz. could you try 5000? that seems perfectly reasonable. even at 233 MHz :) 17:51
putter looks at gaal, bemused ;)
gaal 5k worked too. 17:53
shall I commit? 17:54
seems silly.
I mean, what is it testing? what cosmic significance does 5k have? :-)
but ok, ok :-) 17:55
putter lol
actually, maybe that's not such a good idea 17:57
svnbot6 r8894 | gaal++ | times.t: update fudge value so test passes on fast machines
putter oops. ah well. fine. putter turns out to be running at 3GHz. so that's perhaps a 15-30 hit on a 1GHz, twice that on 500MHz. eh, still fine. 17:59
but embedded was working for you earlier today?
There was a change to Parrot.hsc at one point.
s/15-30/$1 sec/ 18:00
gaal remember when?
putter checking...
r8848 18:01
gaal no, it worked after that
putter ah. curious.
the only other change to Parrot.hsc was the search path change of r8878 18:02
gaal that was my own fix :)
putter yeah :)
gaal well, rebuilding HEAD now to see what happens there. 18:03
putter so it worked then... hmm...
and it doesnt look like anything significant has changed since. Makefile.PL tweaking which shouldnt have an impact. ??? 18:04
gaal no :( 18:05
well, this build will be ready in a while and if it works there, i'll just diff the trees.
bbiab &
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putter r8889 make test passes. 18:07
so the only issues I have are - what happened to examples/cookbook?; - pil2js is buggy (but I'm fine for release); - embedded parrot seems to have issues (but I'm fine for release); - ChangeLog is still marked as "needs editing". 18:09
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putter bbiab 18:14
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gaal eep. r8894 embparrot segfaults for me. I'll try with external parrott... 18:26
putter given that this is the "anniversary release", and the first in a while, and thus likely to draw attention, let's be careful with expectation management. 18:28
gaal the first anniversary release in a while :)
putter ie, there are regressions, but we're releasing anyway because it's been a while, and we're intentionally not fixing some things because as soon as this release is out the door, we're doing a major core change / overhaul. 18:29
:)
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putter audreyt: btw, re "triage", my understanding is that's "focused on assessment, quick look at everything". tag the dead, tell the mobile to move, briefly touch the critical, and the key "and move on". so when it comes down do debugging individual files with known issues, I don't think that's "triage" any more. random thought. :) 18:36
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gaal external parrot does work for me. 18:38
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putter med: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archi...06708.html soft: software.ericsink.com/articles/Four...tions.html mail.python.org/pipermail/python-de...09414.html 18:45
geekswithblogs.net/srkprasad/archiv.../9961.aspx www.stickyminds.com/sitewide.asp?Ob...ctType=COL 18:46
channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=26641 18:48
ok, that's it ;)
one more wiki.kdenews.org/tiki-index.php?page=Bug+Triage 18:51
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Juerd Will Perl 6 have goto? 19:04
gaal טקד
םםפד
oops
yes.
Juerd Even goto LABEL? 19:05
gaal Juerd: Test.pm even uses goto &sub
I think it probably will have goto LABEL, yes.
but then again, I'm basing this on recollection of a pretty old post of Larry's. 19:06
Juerd goto &sub is different, and not what I meant. I was not clear enough. 19:07
Amnesiac longjmp!
Limbic_Region Juerd I asked this question myself on the list 19:10
I am searching for the reply so that I don't tell you something incorrectly 19:11
Amnesiac L~R 19:12
Limbic_Region salutations Amnesiac 19:13
putter audreyt: ok, so maybe the ongoing use of "triage" is fine. never mind. ;) 19:14
Limbic_Region Juerd - If you want to search for "Formal Parameters To While Blook", the first response from luqui implies the answer is yes but not explicitly
and did the cpu issue on feather get resolved? 19:15
Juerd Limbic_Region: Thanks. 19:16
Limbic_Region: It was a memory issue. The memory was somehow very slow.
Limbic_Region: It was resolved by using a combination of three entirely different memory modules AND hard coding the timings in the BIOS. Typically, a very bad setup. But at least it works. 19:17
Limbic_Region odd - I have never heard of memory being slow. I have heard of having the wrong kind of memory and fast memory but not slow memory
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xinming audreyt: in 8840 revision, Pugs will segfault, But Now, the segfault appear again. :-/ 19:17
putter goto with in a block is straightforward. so even if the language doesnt provide it, an ast macro can. goto's across blocks are much more problematic, and thus much more difficult to do a macro for, and perhaps less likely to be in the language.
Juerd This was very fast memory, but not in this board.
It's the most expensive non-ECC memory available to me.
non-ECC non-registered
It's a mobo/ram incompatibility
That even only occurs with dual sided memory. The 512 MB dimm I had from exactly the same brand and series, did work well. 19:18
putter what happens if the memory's actual latency > what the mobo thinks it is? 19:20
dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S04.html says "To jump into the next when block you must use a goto." 19:23
xinming for @{$<pairs>} => $key, $val { 19:28
say "Key: $key";
say "Val: $val";
}
by the way, Is this example above valid?
putter Apr '05 larry has goto LABLE: groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....39f58b2088 19:29
LABEL even
xinming anyone here would confirm my question? for @{$aRef} => $odd, $even { ... } would work? 19:33
Juerd I remember that post, and my reply :)
Thanks, putter
xinming It's from S05. 19:34
putter np. there have been other mentions since, but perhaps not in a thread which included @larry[0].
xinming: shouldnt that be "->" rather than "=>"? but I could be wrong. 19:35
xinming putter: That's what I would ask, as => in S05 appeared many times. 19:36
which doesn't use '->'
putter xinming: yeah, that looks like a bug. note that S03 is using ->. good catch. I'm not sure how one reports Sxx bugs. anyone? 19:41
xinming putter: hmm, I might post it to p6l
bbl 19:42
putter anyone? how does one get Sxx bugs fixed?
gaal putter: p6-l, I guess. 19:43
putter ie, typos, rather than referals for reflection
gaal bbl &
putter has very fuzzy recollection of someone saying "email me patches"... 19:44
ok, tnx gaal.
aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Mess...ge/2620898 the design documents are all available from svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk . And I've already volunteered to review/apply patches to the design documents or forward them to the appropriate people for review -- there just haven't been a lot of patches submitted. (p6l and/or p6c are probably appropriate forums for this.) 19:48
- Patrick R. Michaud
I'm not sure whether that means emailing Pm directly, or p6l. :/ 19:49
19:57
audreyt: Since it's already Feb 1 where you are... My congratulations and thanks for a year of Pugs. It's a beautiful beast. Thanks for letting us come along for the ride. 20:01
lypanov :D
putter xinming: so yes, emailing p6l sounds like a plan. xinming++ 20:05
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Juerd Hm, I even already explicitly asked if goto will be in Perl 6 20:13
And Larry's answer was: Hmm, well we do still have bare labels for loop control, so I'd 20:14
probably still put goto LABEL into the same category.
Which I interpret as "yes"
This will need a hell of a lot of tests.
And definitions. What does LABEL: my $foo; do, the second time it sees "my $foo", after being sent back to LABEL with goto LABEL? 20:15
In Perl 5 it does nothing.
(The value of $foo is not reset to undef)
This is intuitive or counterintuitive depending on how much you know about Perl's guts.
Message-ID: [email@hidden.address] 20:17
Limbic_Region seen robkinyon 20:28
jabbot Limbic_Region: robkinyon was seen 1 days 1 hours 36 minutes 49 seconds ago
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robkinyon limbic_region: pong 20:41
putter Juerd: "L: my $foo;" seems clearish, given that declarations are currently described as relocated to the top of the enclosing block. but what about L: my $foo = bar(); ? Does the initializer run again? So yes, goto will need some limits. Perhaps a heuristic might be "goto can only be used in cases which don't drive us nuts". ;) 20:43
Juerd putter: That means: goto cannot be used. 20:44
putter is actually comfortable with the initializer being rerun in that case. it's just a variant of my $foo; loopy { $foo = bar(); }. 20:45
Limbic_Region robkinyon - just wanted to let you know that I finished my quest to get arbitrarily nested loops that were dynamically constructed finished (in C) 20:46
putter and actually, on reflection, working out a semantics for general goto might force the creation of a clean semantics for everything else :) 20:47
SamB general goto?
that sounds... quite evil
robkinyon limbic_region: How many lines? 20:49
Limbic_Region 158
putter oh no no, evil would be being able to goto into the middle of a sub in a continuation in another thread. hmm...! ;)
Limbic_Region but really the meat is only about 100
robkinyon huh ... that's pretty impressive 20:50
i'd like to see it, if you don't mind
Limbic_Region I am looking to make it general purpose now which will stretch my C knowledge even further
putter Limbic_Region: strictly nested? or allowed to overlap? (eg, Duff-ish games)
Limbic_Region robkinyon - well, I will share it with you most definately but I would prefer to wait until I have a generic solution as the project I wrote it for is uber top secret 20:51
putter reminder that #perl6 is logged... 20:52
Limbic_Region putter - not sure, can you explain the difference
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putter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duff's_device www.lysator.liu.se/c/duffs-device.html , re strictly nested, whether 20:54
the loops are like { { {} } {} } or can be like {a {b {c a} b} c} ;) 20:55
where abc are subscripts identifying the the urm, size, of the particular loop. 20:56
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Limbic_Region putter - strictly nested though I can see how to support overlap 20:56
dduncan I am now smoking pre0
putter neat :)
dduncan: dont forget to edit Cabal
first 20:57
Limbic_Region the problem with supporting overlap is one of bookkeeping since each iteration the values (or even the number of loops) below the current point are subject to change
dduncan I edited config.yml ... why would I edit something else?
putter because pre0 has a bug which prevents successful compilation? ;)
In Pugs.cabal.in, change 6.2.10 to 6.2.11 20:59
dduncan something like that would prevent compilation?
nevermind 21:00
we want correct smokes
putter it makes a 6.2.11.a and looks for .10, or the reverse, or some such.
dduncan I also notice that that file says copyright 2005 only, not 2006 21:01
putter oo, where
dduncan line 5
Pugs.cabal.in
in the pre0 version 21:02
putter greps for all 2005...
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dduncan I always do my copyrights as a range; in this case, 2005-2006 ... 21:03
some people do comma lists, but I find the range works better 21:04
putter ok, that looks like the only one. good catch dduncan 21:06
dduncan: would you like to fix it, or shall I? 21:07
dduncan I'll do it
putter k
dduncan++ 21:08
dduncan I just did a search myself of my pugs checkout dir, and there are a lot more statements just saying copyright 2005 21:10
eg, in debian/copyright 21:11
what was your search pattern that you only found one occurance?
putter debian isn't in the release ;) 21:13
dduncan so the release excluded some of the repository?
putter re cabal, it looks like the example format is Copyright: Copyright (c) 2004, Angela Author www.haskell.org/libraryInfrastructu...ml#EXAMPLE
yes
the exclusion I remain unclear on is examples/cookbook. maybe they are out of date? 21:15
rafl says the debian exclusion is the RightThing.
dduncan reason? 21:16
putter hmm, but the cabal example format from the proposal soo doesnt match the file. so ignore me.
debian? no idea. that's rafl's bailiwick 21:17
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dduncan even if it's excluded, is there any disadvantage to adding 2006 to it? 21:18
putter that's the thing. I have no idea what constraints apply to ralf's stuff. I could certainly imagine it mattering. We're in picky debian legal land there. 21:20
dduncan fine, I'll leave debian alone
now, I was also going to change a few core "2005, 2006" to "2005-2006"; do you see any problem with that?
putter I have no opinion. 21:21
though I note that it's second guessing whoever edited the files in the first place.
not to be negative or anything ;) 21:22
dduncan I suppose, for minimal impact, I can then just format my change with the comma, to be consistant
putter the ChangeLog still says "needs editing"... ;) 21:23
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dduncan okay, I did just the one file 21:31
svnbot6 r8895 | Darren_Duncan++ | r2279@darren-duncans-power-mac-g4: darrenduncan | 2006-01-31 13:27:41 -0800 21:35
r8895 | Darren_Duncan++ | Pugs.cabal.in : added 2006 to the copyright
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dduncan I also notice that whether or not the prelude is generated seems somewhat random 21:39
like it tends not to happen on the first make, but does later, for example 21:40
rather than smoke the pre0, I'll smoke the repository instead 21:41
and Larry already posted that pre0 has some problems anyway 21:42
on p6c
putter the INSTALL file and Makefile.PL messages both now say embedded is not recommended with this release 21:44
dduncan: re prelude, the regular pugs prelude, or the pil2js prelude?
dduncan regular pugs 21:45
putter oh. that would be a new one. what happened?
dduncan this has happened for weeks, if not months ... where the pugs prelude is sometimes not generated
besides the config.yml being set to do it, I'm not sure how to kick this 21:46
the first run of pre0 did not build it, but my repository with r8895 does build it
s/repository/checkout/
anyway, I'm currently smoking r8895 21:47
putter curious. 21:49
platform? ghc rev? gcc rev?
dduncan platform is darwin 21:50
the behaviour occurred on both X 10.3.9 and 10.4.4
gcc 3.3 and 4.0 respectively
ghc 6.4.1 on both
putter hmm. I wonder who else is using darwin. whether they are seeing something similar? 21:51
dduncan sometimes it seems that a clean and a rebuild kicks it into being made 21:52
as if some other generated file's presence was used as a clude that the prelude should be done
s/d//
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putter Ok, that's just depressing. Google search hit an Apr 2002 ruby-talk post I did looking forward to computational algebra support in p6. Almost 4 years ago. Sigh. 22:01
comet^ Don't worry Marvin^Wputter, things will get better. :P 22:05
Odin- Ohhh. Here I am, brain the size of a planet... 22:06
Juerd I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side. 22:07
Odin- Guess which part they never replaced?
Juerd His personality :)
Odin- That, too.
How old did he get to be, again? Twenty-seven times the universe? 22:08
putter comet^: Oh my. Until I saw Odin-'s comment, I thought you meant Marvin Minsky. And got _very_ depressed. Hey parking cars is fun! >:)
Odin- shrugs. Maybe he did. 22:09
putter (Minsky, ai researcher since forever, got to grow old while watching people _not_ explore his ideas.) 22:10
comet^ Nah, Odin- was correct.
That is depressing indeed. 22:11
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putter listens to Marvin's 1980's singles... ;) 22:19
Juerd In 2002, people wondered if learning Perl 5 was worth the trouble, with Perl 6 in development. 22:22
In 2006, people google for Perl 6, wonder why their distribution hasn't packaged it yet, and start learning Perl 5 anyway.
Odin- Heeh. 22:23
They can't be using Debian (unstable, at least), then.
comet^ Stephen Fry was a fitting choice for the voice of Marvin in the HHGTTG movie.
Odin- He was? 22:24
comet^ Imo.
rhesa Odin-: testing has a prehistoric version of pugs as well ;)
comet^ runs sid as always. :P
Odin- rhesa: Neat.
rhesa how risky would it be to switch my workstation to unstable (from stable)? note that i'm running amd64 (with a i386 chroot for testing stuff) 22:26
putter Ooo, maybe we can do an April 1st pugs release! :)
comet^ Depends what you have running really and what do you mean on stable, rhesa. 22:28
rhesa i don't think i'm running anything out of the ordinary. gnome, firefox, svn clients, perl, xmms, that's about it. oh, and OO in the chroot. I mostly work remotely through ssh, so local stuff is just email and browsing, and toying around with perl[56] :) 22:31
comet^ I think it would be relatively painless then.
You might have to edit a few configs here and there but that is all.
(Afaik) 22:32
I don't know if there is any official way to switch between versions, but I've always edited /etc/apt/sources.conf and just dist-upgraded. 22:33
rhesa i wanted to see which pugs version is in unstable, but packages.debian.orgg is down
yes, that's what i would do too.
comet^ again?
:\
rhesa since jan 6th apparently 22:34
comet^ Version: 6.2.10-4
If that means anything thats what apt-cache show pugs gives.
rhesa testing has 6.2.9
Juerd audreyt: Please have a look at darcs; it still runs with nice 0
audreyt: Darcs is resource hungry, and this affects build speed for people who are waiting for it. 22:35
rhesa i suppose the upcoming release will be in unstable pretty soon, right?
comet^ Yeah.
(I guess so, unstable is usually pretty quick)
Juerd rhesa: Ask rafl 22:36
putter You would think there would be a webpage devoted to Marvin quotes. But no. Or if there is, I can't find it. Unless it's the link where the host was down. And even if I did find one, the link would be broken soon anyway. And the web only gets worse from here on.
comet^ oh he's the maintainer of that deb. package
wikiquote?
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Hitchhike...Android.29 22:37
rhesa thanks guys. i'll look at upgrading my box this weekend. 22:38
putter Second billing to a dilettante. And a human. With human selected by committee. That sounds like fun. 22:41
drat. s/human/humor/
thanks comet^ :) 22:42
comet^ yw.
doh. 22:43
I'm really slow getting humor today. 22:44
putter lol :) 22:45
comet^ Sorry. 22:47
:)
putter Oh, so np. I love delayed reaction "gotchas". ;) 22:49
If the timing works out, one could have sooo much fun with a Apr 1 release. "This weeks release of pugs adds support for ruby, python, R5RS scheme, Common Lisp and APL, all passing their respective language test suites. No, we're not kidding. Really. This is not an April Fools joke!". And maybe, perhaps, it just might not be... 22:53
integral if not, we could stretch out development to next year...
putter laughing.. too... hard... to... type... 22:54
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Juerd It'd be fun if the first real release of perl 6 would be accompanied by no more than a mere notice saying "Okay, here it is. Have fun with it." 22:55
That would be the ultimate anticlimax after years and years of development.
putter :) 22:58
does Haskell have parallel (ie, declarative) array/matrix ops? 22:59
s/Haskell/ghc/
stevan comet^: Marvin's voice in the movie was Alan Rickman, not Stephen Fry actually 23:03
integral putter: there's some maps in Data.Array.IArray, but nothing like matrix multiplication
stevan Alan Rickman was also Professor Snape in Harry Potter movies too :)
comet^ hm, really?
I distintly remember Steven Fry's name. 23:04
stevan comet^: just double checked on the website
Stephen Fry was the narrator
www.imdb.com/title/tt0371724/ 23:05
comet^ ah
you're right.
Guess I was wrong.
putter haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellOhSix has some fun numeric prelude discussion
stevan just watched it the other night, otherwise I would not have remembered or cared :)
putter There's also haskell.org/hawiki/LinearAlgebra and haskell.org/hawiki/FunDeps 23:06
integral: tnx 23:07
integral did some matrices coursework over finite fields (one version used type-level numbers!) with it; it's usable just 23:08
putter oops, late. bb(much)l. good night & (still wondering about examples/cookbook) 23:09
hmm, type level numbers... :)
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Juerd Does Larry read this channel, did anyone contact him directly, or can he read minds? :) 23:16
comet^ His perl script reads minds.
Juerd comet^++ 23:18
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xinming1983 ?eval my $a = "ABC"; $a ~~ s/A//; 23:45
?eval "hello" 23:46
23:46 evalbot_8877 is now known as evalbot_8895
evalbot_8895 bool::true 23:46
xinming1983 died... :-P
evalbot_8895 "hello"
xinming1983 how to compare 2 strings in perl 6? is "ABC" == "abc" correct?
Juerd xinming1983: Are you serious? 23:51
No, you're not.
xinming1983 ok, I think I know, using ===. :-/ 23:59
23:59 bluefeet joined

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