pugs.blogs.com/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.13.tar.gz released! | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by audreyt on 17 October 2006.
00:00 hexmode` joined
anatolyv quit 00:00
00:01 Aankhen`` joined
clkao audreyt: svk log --output stats 00:01
apply -l 100 or whatever you like
obra cool 00:03
audreyt clkao: obrigada 00:06
clkao not gado ? 00:07
audreyt curiously the gender is dependent on the one saying it
not the one receiving it
just discovered that today ;) 00:08
obra "I am obligated" 00:09
Now, how do you say "Don't shoot, I'm a table!" 00:11
cognominal Is there a short way in rules to say <thing>s separated, say, by comma 00:18
00:18 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
cognominal this comes over and over. 00:18
audreyt well, there's four variants
sepBy, sepByEnd, sepBy1 and sepByEnd1 in parsec speak 00:19
Caelum hmm, the debian/ directory in svn is out of date, and the latest debian package in sid is 6.2.10
audreyt depending whether you want to match "foo," and "foo"
cognominal and in Perl6 speak?
[particle] <foo> [<', '> <foo>]* 00:20
audreyt the by-hand /<foo> [, <foo>]*/ is currently the only way I think
cognominal rule thinglist { [ <thing> [ \, <thing> ]* ]? } 00:21
this merits some huffmanization
apparently Parsec did it 00:22
...as you said
audreyt <sep(/,/, /thing/)> perhaps? 00:23
cognominal that you would be nice
probably a very good example of a rule as sub with parameters 00:24
[particle] agreed
audreyt I wonder if ws can autosep two or more rx params 00:26
<sep , <thing>>
would be very nice.
cognominal: p6l? :)
[particle] <thing :sep<,>> 00:27
cognominal my outgoing mail is out of order
audreyt that makes <thing> take param
according to S05 00:28
because : is also "commit" node
[particle] inside a rule name?
audreyt that turns into <thing(/: sep <,>/)>
cognominal rule sep(Rule separator, Rule separated, bool allowNone) { ... }
[particle] yep
audreyt yes, S05:676
[particle] so, can you specify what kind of regex you want inside another regex? 00:29
audreyt kind?
[particle] if <thing> is a token
<thing i'm a regex>
...passed to a token
hrmm 00:30
00:30 bcorn_ joined
[particle] <thing :sigspace testing 1 2 3> 00:30
audreyt *nod*
<thing :!sigspace moose>
[particle] that needs tests
audreyt that does 00:31
00:35 mauke joined 00:43 mjk joined 00:46 jferrero joined
cmarcelo audreyt: "fun" in -Ofun translates better imho as "divertimento".. 01:06
audreyt but that word is so long... 01:07
cmarcelo what about "diversĆ£o"? 01:09
[particle] audreyt: it's a big word, but it's maximum fun! 01:10
cmarcelo indeed :) 01:11
audreyt: have sketches of the slides yet? 01:12
01:16 nothingmuch joined
audreyt cmarcelo: sketches? yes 01:19
details, not at all
cmarcelo correction: imho fun => "diversĆ£o" :)
rather than "divertimento".. 01:20
01:22 dmq joined 01:30 SageLT joined, mako132_ joined
audreyt gotcha :) 01:31
cmarcelo audreyt: yay! I've just borrowed a macbook (with only 512mb, though) for the event. is GHC 6.6 working fine in OSX or should I go Linux?
eviltwin_b works fine on OSX/PPC, dunno about intel 01:32
audreyt 512 is quite sufficient 01:33
it's my main work machine so GHC should work Just Fine
just grab haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.6/ghc-6.6-i3...in.tar.bz2 and install 01:34
lambdabot tinyurl.com/y74lc3
audreyt this is great, that means we get to use subetha and other cool things
jrockway i think there's a GNOME equivalent of subethaedit around now
cmarcelo gobby
audreyt Gobby it is
cmarcelo subetha = free? 01:35
jrockway different protocol, though, I think
audreyt doesn't quite work on OSX here
jrockway subetha = no source code
eviltwin_b free for nmoncommercial use, closed source
audreyt gobby = doesn't build here :/
jrockway weird
audreyt I can always Parallel into Ubuntu or something 01:36
jrockway on intel/x86 + X11?
audreyt yes, but OSX
jrockway yeah, i meant OSX instead of x86 :(
weird
audreyt a .dmg or .pkg build will be much appreciated...
jrockway heh, my OS X install DVD doesn't work anymore, so my powerbook is OpenBSD now :) 01:37
not quite as nice GUI-wise as OSX...
audreyt that's cool :)
01:47 SubStack joined 01:52 SageLT joined 02:07 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl 02:14 nipotaway is now known as nipotan
audreyt @tell fglock see you tomorrow :) 02:45
lambdabot Consider it noted.
audreyt &
02:48 cmarcelo left 03:04 root4o joined 03:05 the_dormant joined
pasteling "ashleyb" at 66.201.51.66 pasted "test that causes P::C::R to hang" (10 lines, 253B) at sial.org/pbot/20775 03:15
ashleyb what should I do with the previous test (it causes P::C::R to hang)?
seen fglock? 03:17
jabbot ashleyb: fglock was seen 6 hours 13 minutes 21 seconds ago
ashleyb @tell fglock the following test causes P::C::R to hang: sial.org/pbot/20775 -- how should I work it into the test suite? 03:18
lambdabot Consider it noted.
03:19 justatheory joined 03:32 TimToady joined 03:56 stclare joined, penk joined 03:57 stclare left
svnbot6 r14564 | cmeyer++ | tests for &statement_control:<> 04:12
04:13 SubStack joined 04:15 nekokak joined 04:57 eggzeck joined, avarab joined 05:00 davidfetter joined
davidfetter seen fglock 05:01
jabbot davidfetter: fglock was seen 7 hours 57 minutes 30 seconds ago
05:14 avar joined 05:45 pen1 joined 06:10 trym_ joined 06:13 penk joined
svnbot6 r14565 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl] 06:18
r14565 | agentz++ | - added a link to my pugs.blogs.com post
r14565 | agentz++ | pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006/09/check_smoke_res.html
lambdabot tinyurl.com/gdyy8
06:20 bsb left
svnbot6 r14566 | agentz++ | [t/README] 06:20
r14566 | agentz++ | - added links to the pugs.blogs.com posts
06:27 marmic joined 06:28 Psyche^ joined
svnbot6 r14567 | raptor++ | added range tests 06:33
06:40 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
meppl guten morgen 06:49
svnbot6 r14568 | raptor++ | lowercasing lowecase string and UPPER case char-range. 06:51
root4o morgen ..... but it is night here ;)
davidfetter night here, too 06:52
06:52 iblechbot joined
meppl good morning root4o 07:04
good night davedfetter
root4o meppl: how is the weather in germany? 07:08
meppl sunny, but a bit cold 07:12
hm
that prediction is wrong: www.wetteronline.de/Bayern/Wuerzburg.htm 07:13
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ushjz
meppl wetter.rtl.de/deutschland/uebersich...=wuerzburg 07:15
07:15 perlbot joined
lambdabot Title: wetter.de, tinyurl.com/yk4f44 07:15
meppl says the same
perhaps that clouds are comings soon
now there are no clouds
07:15 esstone joined
root4o last days it became colder here too...but at noon still is possible to be with t-shirt ;) 07:18
07:20 bcorn joined
meppl what scale unit do you use for temperatures? 07:21
07:21 mugwump joined
root4o Farenheit here , celsius at my home.... 07:22
eviltwin_b watches pugs do a complete rebuild
meppl so
do you live in the usa?
root4o these farenheits, inches and paunds...still can't become use to it ;) 07:23
meppl good morning eviltwin b
root4o at the moment yes
use = used 07:24
meppl yo 07:25
and the usa should use DINA4, instead of that "letter" asdf ;-> 07:26
eviltwin_b sometimes wishes the US would get a clue, but then he remembers that he too is a bit too canalized in Imperial units :)
root4o UK are using metric system, right ? 07:27
clkao most of the time 07:29
meppl i thought they use that pounds 07:30
eviltwin_b pounds as a unit of money, but they use grams for weight/mass these days 07:31
meppl for weight-mensuration
so, thats not the metric system
eviltwin_b pretty much only hears and reads grams/kilograms from them these days 07:32
I'm sure some older folks still use Imperial units
svnbot6 r14569 | raptor++ | added combined uc/lc test 07:36
root4o ?eval (1..5).chars
07:36 evalbot_r14563 is now known as evalbot_r14569
evalbot_r14569 9 07:36
root4o why this gives : 9 !
revdiablo ?eval (1..5) 07:37
evalbot_r14569 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
root4o aha it counts commas
revdiablo ?eval (1..5).elems
evalbot_r14569 5
root4o yeah, i know i wanted to see 'chars' ;) 07:38
what does .pick does on array and hashes ? ... picks random element , or ? 07:41
eviltwin_b ?eval (1..10).pick 07:49
evalbot_r14569 7
eviltwin_b ?eval (1..10).pick
evalbot_r14569 6
eviltwin_b ?eval {:a<b>, :c<d>, :e<f>}.pick
evalbot_r14569 ("e" => "f")
eviltwin_b ?eval {:a<b>, :c<d>, :e<f>}.pick
evalbot_r14569 ("c" => "d")
clkao seen audreyt 07:50
jabbot clkao: audreyt was seen 5 hours 4 minutes 45 seconds ago
eviltwin_b ?eval ~(1..5) 08:00
evalbot_r14569 "1 2 3 4 5"
eviltwin_b correct answer to the question about .chars :)
root4o ;) 08:02
miyagawa_ clkao: ping 08:04
clkao miyagawa_: pong
miyagawa_ what can I do to make svk co faster?
clkao miyagawa_: perlbal rocks
which operation
miyagawa_ checkout
I'm checking out plagger trunk
clkao checkout from already mirrored depot ? 08:05
miyagawa_ which takes 10 minutes wich CPU 100% usage
yes
clkao so
can you run it with dprof and nopaste me the dprofpp?
it shouldn't be that slow
miyagawa_ ok
clkao but i am falling asleep soon 08:06
miyagawa_ it wasn't that slow
bu as the local mirrored repository grows, it gets really slow
I'll take a dprof
08:07 OppaiSan joined, tokuhirom joined 08:08 OppaiSan left
root4o good night , all 08:21
08:22 root4o left
miyagawa_ clkao: it takes about 0.8 second for each file and directory 08:24
which makes checking out the whole plagger trunk take 30 minutes 08:25
clkao interesting. maybe it's fsfs being slow 08:26
it's using a lot of IO
miyagawa_ bulknews.net/tmp/tmon.out.gz 08:28
running dprofpp against it. might take forever :) 08:33
clkao 81.6 595.8 595.88 304426 0.0020 0.0020 Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
haa haaaaaa
miyagawa_ interesting
kane-xs maybe even longer... maybe even.. till christmas
clkao svk co --purge ?
miyagawa_ done. 08:34
may i do it again?
clkao yep see if it's faster 08:35
miyagawa_ FYI, I did it and purged 3 checkouts
clkao not too much
but co shouldnt use that many ancestors
miyagawa_ running svk co again 08:36
hmm, might be a little faster. Just a little.
clkao ok
08:36 drrho joined
clkao let me see tomorrow 08:37
must sleep
miyagawa_ does upgrading svk help?
clkao probably
miyagawa_ I'm using 1.08
FWIW plagger trunk has 834 files 08:44
clkao that's not too much 08:45
but remind me again tomorrow
or send me a hiveminder task
miyagawa_ %Time ExclSec CumulS #Calls sec/call Csec/c Name 08:50
83.1 370.0 370.01 245432 0.0015 0.0015 Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
10.2 45.57 429.85 245432 0.0002 0.0018 Data::Hierarchy::get
3.97 17.67 451.96 1035 0.0171 0.4367 Data::Hierarchy::_remove_redundant
3 _properties_and_undefs
2.45 10.91 10.912 52920 0.0002 0.0002 Storable::dclone
(after svk co --purge)
sent as an email, too
08:51 TSa joined 08:52 dakkar joined
TSa HaloO 08:56
clkao miyagawa_: can you try trunk first. the code has been cleaned up a bit
miyagawa_ ok
clkao: upgraded to trunk and apparently it's much faster. 09:04
clkao cool! 09:05
miyagawa_ yeah, it's 170 sec now. 3 times faster ;) 09:08
%Time ExclSec CumulS #Calls sec/call Csec/c Name 09:09
85.0 131.1 131.13 245445 0.0005 0.0005 Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
9.13 14.08 149.90 245445 0.0001 0.0006 Data::Hierarchy::get
2.92 4.500 155.70 1035 0.0043 0.1504 Data::Hierarchy::_remove_redundant
09:11 elmex joined
miyagawa_ Hmm, Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors has a pretty good comment left 09:12
# XXX: could build cached pointer for fast traversal
09:15 eux joined 09:23 eggzeck[laptop] joined
clkao but it shouldn't be called 245 thousand times 09:23
09:26 kensanata joined 09:34 gene9 joined, kanru joined 10:23 loumz joined 10:31 as_ joined 10:40 as_ is now known as gene9 10:55 pnu joined 11:05 kane-xs_ joined 11:08 jferrero joined 11:48 kensanata joined
dmq seen timtoady? 11:50
jabbot dmq: I havn't seen timtoady, dmq
12:07 nipotan is now known as nipotaway, Psyche^ joined
audreyt greetings lambdacamels 12:10
TSa HaloO audrey 12:11
audreyt TSa: heya
TSa public holiyday in southern Germany
audreyt cool 12:12
I'm writing a reply to mmd-draft.txt thread
TSa that's nice
you hardly post into p6l
what is the state of affairs with MMD 12:13
I've seen all these docs next to mmd-draft.txt
looks a bit unconclusive so far 12:14
12:15 pnu joined
audreyt mmd-draft.txt subsumes them 12:15
reply sent 12:16
TSa I can look into it tomorrow at work 12:17
but we can discuss the voting now if you like
audreyt sure 12:18
so consider the easy case 12:19
where there's no semicolons
TSa the unclear part is the score cards that every target keeps
Ok, I'm with you
audreyt the score cards is really two Sets
the Voting Set and the Qualified Set
in other words each variant carries two Bool 12:20
TSa sets of targets that is
audreyt for each variant
yes
so consider
:(Str, Int) # M1
:(Int, Str) # M2
TSa OK 12:21
audreyt because there's no semicolons, everybody's Voting Set and Qualified Set are guaranteed to be same
TSa OK
audreyt now consider
\("moose", 123) 12:22
the first step is consider "compatible"
i.e. whether M1 and M2 can both handle the args
TSa OK, that's Str, Int 12:23
so M2 is out
audreyt suppose "moose" can't be handled by Int, M2 is out
there is _no_ voting
so far so good?
TSa OK, easy so far
audreyt :(Dog, Animal) # M1
:(Animal, Dog) # M2
12:23 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
audreyt suppose we have 12:23
\($fido, $fido) # Dog, Dog 12:24
and Does isa Animal
0th round: compatibility check
both are compatible
then voting begins
again, VotingSet and QualifiedSet are the same for M1, M2 12:25
initialling VS={M1, M2}, QS={M1, M2}
TSa OK
audreyt at position 1, "A qualified variant whose parameter type is not at least as narrow as 12:26
that of each voting variant is disqualified."
which means we compare each of QS with all of VS
for position 1
TSa OK
audreyt obviously, M2 in QS loses to M1 in VS
TSa agreed
audreyt so the system process says: "everyone who has M1 in their VS, now remove M2 from their QS" 12:27
here "everyone" is M1, M2
so now VS={M1, M2} QS={M1}
makes some sense?
TSa yes, sorry was afk 12:28
audreyt VS-of-M1={M1,M2}, QS-of-M1={M1} ; VS-of-M2={M1,M2}, QS-of-M2={M1} 12:29
TSa OK
audreyt but since there's no semicolon, we don't need really to write of-M1 and of-M2
TSa why not?
ahh they are the same 12:30
audreyt because the worldviews differ only when semi are encountered in different places
but anyway. let's go to position 2
TSa OK
audreyt at pos2, "A qualified variant whose parameter type is not at least as narrow as that of each voting variant is disqualified."
again, we compare each of QS with all of VS
for position 2
TSa OK
audreyt which emans we compare M1 to both M1 and M2 12:31
curiously, M1 in QS loses to M2 in VS
so the system process says: "everyone who has M2 in their VS, now remove M1 from their QS"
so now, VS={M1, M2} QS={}
TSa OK
audreyt ok so far?
now we go to position
TSa yes 12:32
audreyt 3
but there is no position 3
so the decision process terminates
we tally the QS to see if there's one item left
but it's a zero set
TSa and we have an ambiguity
audreyt so the system fails with "ambiguity"
yes.
now consider 12:33
:(Dog ; Animal) # M
M1
TSa OK
audreyt :(Animal ; Dog) # M2
the semis align, so again world views will be the same
\($fido, $fido)
0 - compatibility check - all pass 12:34
TSa OK
audreyt VS={M1, M2}, QS={M1, M2}
1 - Removal of M2 from QS
TSa OK
audreyt VS={M1,M2}, QS={M1}
TSa clear
audreyt "When a variant encounters a single semicolon in its own signature, all
non-qualified variants on its own score card, only, are marked as also
non-voting."
TSa hmm 12:35
12:35 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
audreyt which means VS = intersection(VS,QS) 12:35
so at the semi after pos 1
both variant change their VS 12:36
VS={M1}, QS={M1}
makes sense?
TSa the transfer from the wording to the intersection is difficult 12:37
how come to intersect QS and VS at the semicolon pso 12:38
audreyt ok. the wording says, when semicolon is seen
we take complement of QS
i.e. the set of non-qualified
TSa ahh
audreyt and subtract it from VS 12:39
TSa that's {M2} here
audreyt which is like, intersection
yes.
TSa OK, got it
audreyt good. now at pos2
we compare each of QS with all of VS
{M1} doesn't lose to {M1}
nothing happens
so we are at the end 12:40
QS={M1}
unambiguous win
yay :)
TSa OK, that was homogenous cases so far
audreyt yes. no consider
:(Dog, Animal) # M1 12:41
:(Animal; Dog) # M2
can you go through the process as an exercise now? :)
TSa 0 both qualify
1 M1 wins over M2 12:42
hmm so we have QS = {M1} VS = {M1,M2}
audreyt but now they diverge
so we must write QS1 VS1 QS2 VS2 12:43
TSa one behaves as comma the other as semicolon
is it still me? 12:44
audreyt QS1={M1} VS1={M1,M2}
QS2={M1} QS2={M1}
QS2={M1} VS2={M1}
at position 2 12:45
QS1={} VS1={M1,M2}
QS2={M1} VS2={M1}
makes sense?
TSa yes, basically the two cases we had before in one
audreyt but it's still ambig
TSa because of VS1? 12:46
audreyt because there's no consensus
TSa ahh
audreyt the deciding factor is all variants must agree on one single M
:(Dog ; Animal) # M1 12:47
:(Animal, Dog) # M2
you can do this yourself this time :)
audreyt goes eating some breakfast -- bbiab in 5min 12:48
TSa how did you do this 'goes eating...' ?
12:48 penk joined 12:49 chris2 joined
audreyt /me smiles 12:49
try typing that
TSa smiles
ahh
enjoy your breakfast 12:50
audreyt thanks :) 12:51
back 12:53
so as you probably figured out by now
TSa that was a quick breakfast
audreyt moving the semi to M1 doesn't affect the outcome
TSa you are in a hotel in Brazil, right?
audreyt it's still ambig
QS1={M1} VS1={M1}
QS2={} VS2={M1,M2} 12:54
is the result
yes in Holiday Inn
13:48 * audreyt goes eating some breakfast -- bbiab in 5min
13:53 < audreyt> back
well I did say 5 min :)
TSa how much did you eat
or was that just an espresso?
audreyt I ate quite a lot, thanks :) 12:56
TSa in 5 mins?
I'm impressed
audreyt it's just I operate in a slightly higher clock speed when eating...
anyway.
now consider 12:57
:(Dog ;; Animal) # M1
:(Animal, Dog) # M2
\($fido, $fido)
TSa is that ;; official?
audreyt not yet. although it's just notation
what we write in mmd-draft
:(A ; B; C ;; D)
is currently in S12
:(A ; B ; C ; D)
and what we write as
:(A ; B) 12:58
is in S12
:(A ; B ;)
TSa I see
audreyt i.e. currently in S12 the final semi is what mmd-draft has as double demi
12:58 Limbic_Region joined
audreyt so it's just notation; dispatch works the same either way 12:58
Limbic_Region: greetings
so, back to
13:57 < audreyt> :(Dog ;; Animal) # M1 12:59
13:57 < audreyt> :(Animal, Dog) # M2
13:57 < audreyt> \($fido, $fido)
0: compatible
TSa OK
audreyt 1: QS={M1} VS={M1,M2}
at the ;; now
; is a local action
that only affects oneself
;; is a global action
that _removes_ oneself from everybody 's VS
so M1 says 13:00
"please everybody remove me from VS thanks"
so now globally it's
QS={M1} VS={M2}
makes sense?
TSa yes
even though I don't see the benefit yet
audreyt so now position 2: 13:01
M2 wins over M1
QS={} VS={M2}
globally
dies with ambiguity
makes sense?
finally let's consider the reverse case.
:(Dog, Animal) # M1
:(Animal ;; Dog) # M2 13:02
TSa sorry why ambiguity?
audreyt QS is null
TSa ahh, OK
audreyt this time, 0:compatible, 1: QS={M1}, VS={M1,M2}
but now it's M2 telling everybody to remove it from VS
so globally:
QS={M1}, VS={M1}
position 2, nothing happens 13:03
finally, M1 wins
TSa I see
audreyt the benefit is that M2 can say
"I list Dog here only for compatibility purpose"
"I don't want it to disqualify other people"
TSa just for getting the two sets right 13:04
VS are still in the race 13:05
audreyt nono
QS are still in the race
TSa what is VS saying then?
audreyt if something is in VS but not in QS
then it can't win itself
but it can pull others down
it's a "spoiler"
it's not a candidate, it's a voter 13:06
TSa aha
what are the properties of that system? 13:07
is it symmetric?
Limbic_Region audreyt - salutations 13:08
.seen lanny
?seen lanny
lambdabot lanny is in #perl6. I last heard lanny speak 13h 46m 50s ago.
audreyt kolibrie: what are the properties of this system? :)
Limbic_Region no word then on if the slow down rev was isolated
13:09 lanny_ joined
audreyt TSa: if by symmetric you mean the order of Ms doesn't matter, sure 13:09
it has some stronger properties though
if M1 loses to M2 in {M1,M2} alone, and M2 loses to M3 in {M2, M3} alone 13:10
then {M1,M2,M3} will have M3 as winner
I forgot what's name for this property
pasteling "lanny" at 69.22.50.12 pasted "Smoke durations" (12 lines, 175B) at sial.org/pbot/20780
TSa is that a kind of transitiviy
lanny_ Nopaste shows what I got for smoke durations on different revs. The pointy if's seem to lock me but a few revs later when that's cleared up there's a small time increase. 13:11
Limbic_Region lanny_ - those times are in seconds?
lanny_ Yes. Taken directly from smoke.html
audreyt it's "Independence of irrelevant alternatives" 13:12
IIA, I think
TSa did you look that system up somewhere?
Limbic_Region lanny - out of curiosity, what are the hw specs on that machine?
lanny_ Intel 6700 core2duo, 2G ram 13:13
lumi Would {M1, M3} also give M3, or does that not follow?
Limbic_Region idly wonders if perhaps the time issue is related to resources
audreyt lumi: I think it also will, yes 13:14
Limbic_Region audreyt - WRT the significant slow down. I am only seeing it on one of my two machines
audreyt TSa: no, it's based on luqui's initial design constraints
which did not consider semicolons
Limbic_Region while they both show a slow down - only one is significant
audreyt and then refined by joint design of putter, kolibrie, audreyt, with some help from stevan and gaal 13:15
Limbic_Region: ok. so it's the if-> change as I suspected?
TSa looks like I have to be afk for a while 13:16
lanny_ Sorry those results took so long. Was tired after Halloweening and IRC was acting up for me. Now it's time to get them ready for school. Enjoy, all.
Limbic_Region audreyt - not according to lanny's results
or rather - the spike due to that change didn't last
r14488 1086secs, r11490 3578secs, r14494 1142secs 13:17
audreyt *nod*
Limbic_Region smoke.yml doesn't give individual test times does it? 13:18
audreyt not sure
probably not
Limbic_Region I am wondering if perhaps it is a particularly sick and twisted test that is causing my 512MB maching to swap thrash 13:19
and the rest of the tests are fine
audreyt - if I don't explitly tell it to use any of the neat new doodads for speed optimizations, will any of the probing detect and enable them behind the scenes? 13:20
audreyt Limbic_Region: no 13:22
Limbic_Region then I am leaning towards resources as an explanation
13:22 buetow joined
Limbic_Region work machine = 2.8ghz w/ 512MB 13:22
audreyt wonders if anyone can help illustrating the VS/QS diagrams above into some accessible web form
Limbic_Region home machine = 2 x 1.73ghz w/ 1GB
audreyt any takers? 13:23
"illustrated mmd-draft.txt"
ASCII art will also do :)
Limbic_Region theoretically, the home machine should only be using 1 of the 2 CPUs (as reflected by taskmanager)
and yet the home machine finishes a full 20 minutes before the work machine
so 1GB of ram but slower cpu finishes 20 minutes before 512MB of ram but faster cpu 13:24
dmq what would (* be a perl6 pattern? anything?
audreyt (* ?
dmq I was thinking of making the backtracking control verbs im working on in the perl5 engine be of the form (*VERB:ARG) or (*VERB) 13:25
since (* is an illegal pattern in older perls.
and (*FAIL) seems a little more intuitive than (?FAIL) 13:26
and im just checking whether that would create a mismatch with something that perl6 might be doing. 13:27
audreyt (* is illegal in p6 rx as well
so go ahead :)
ooh, GHC -head has Devel::Cover-ish testing 13:29
so we can finally see how much of Pugs internals is not covered by t/ 13:30
mental note: run -fhpc on Pugs some time soon
13:41 cmarcelo joined
cmarcelo ola 13:41
audreyt oies 13:42
kolibrie backlogged a little bit, but still didn't find the context of the discussion - how far back do I need to go? 13:50
audreyt kolibrie: TSa was asking what properties does mmd-draft.txt yes 13:51
*have 13:52
kolibrie does not have an answer 13:53
audreyt k 13:55
14:04 jferrero joined 14:13 gene9 joined 14:15 penk joined 14:17 justatheory joined 14:22 kensanata joined 14:27 iblechbot joined 14:29 vel joined
TSa HaloO, I'm back 14:36
14:39 kensanata joined 14:50 norageek joined, cjeris joined 14:55 rodi joined 14:57 rlb3 joined 15:07 penk joined 15:17 hexmode joined
svnbot6 r14570 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: fglock++ noticed that Pugs was not composing hash variables: 15:21
r14570 | audreyt++ | my $x = { %y }; # was a Block, should be Hash
r14570 | audreyt++ | This fixed it and added a regression test into nested_hashrefs.t
audreyt @seen TimToady 15:30
lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I don't know when TimToady last spoke.
TSa many people are silently online 15:34
audreyt: coming back to your mmd talks 15:36
PerlJam TSa: we're all stunned. ;-)
audreyt TSa: would you mind doing a summary of it in some form? 15:41
TSa like a post to p6l? Yes, no problem. 15:43
15:44 gene9 joined, penk joined
TSa the property I wanted to ask about is: does the algorithm pick a dispatch target that is more or equally specific in all positions 15:44
audreyt well it does, if there's no semicolons 15:45
and if semicolons align, then that property still holds on the first semicolon sections
TSa I see 15:46
audreyt TimToady: I hacked in "use v5;" into spec as discussed a while ago as a way to switch semantics inside e.g. /{use v5; ...}/ blocks. sanity check welcome 15:47
miyagawa_ ingy: ping 15:54
16:27 polettix joined, timbunce joined, timbunce left, penk joined
svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Implement "use v5" blocks: 16:39
r14571 | audreyt++ | use v6-alpha;
r14571 | audreyt++ | # ...some Perl 6 code...
r14571 | audreyt++ | {
r14571 | audreyt++ | use v5;
r14571 | audreyt++ | # ...some Perl 5 code...
r14571 | audreyt++ | { 16:40
r14571 | audreyt++ | use v6-alpha;
r14571 | audreyt++ | # ...more Perl 6 code...
r14571 | audreyt++ | }
r14571 | audreyt++ | }
r14571 | audreyt++ | Thanks to fglock++ for prompting this.
16:40 penk joined
avar audreyt: is this possible as a result of lexical pragmas now working better? 16:40
(at all?)
16:41 cmarcelo joined
cmarcelo ahoy 16:41
audreyt avar: we have lexpragmas but this is not one
this is a strange block opening wih
{usev5; 16:42
and end with
}
cmarcelo audreyt: fglock arrived?
audreyt and p5 controls parsing
cmarcelo: just arrived then went to lunch
I got a tour of src/perl5/ though
will work on unified AST today
TimToady so all perl 5 sees is Perl 5...
clkao audreyt: hi! how are things
audreyt I'm implementing lexicals
the idea is this should transparently work 16:43
sub foo ($x, $y) { use v5; $x + $y }
in both runtimes
which I _think_ makes a lot of sense
also will make boot a lot easier
clkao: doing fine :)
TimToady I suppose the only question is how many years it will take to deprecate once people start relying on it... 16:44
audreyt but I thought v6 will always subsume v5...
TimToady that's a lot of years...
eviltwin_b: (1..5).chars should be 5
it shouldn't count the spaces either. 16:45
should just be the sum of all the individual .chars
16:46 cmarcelo left
TimToady unicode is like herbs and spices--it's really easy to ruin your program by adding too many of them... 16:50
but a few of them makes your program much tastier. 16:51
I18n cuisine...
17:01 araujo joined 17:07 [particle] joined
audreyt $ ./pugs -e 'sub f ($x, $y) { use v5; $x + $y }; say f(1,2)' 17:16
3
yay
17:17 amnesiac joined
Limbic_Region audreyt - use v5; has lexical scope? 17:18
svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: Implement passing lexical scalar variables into Perl 5,
r14572 | audreyt++ | such that t/perl5/eval_lex.t now passes:
r14572 | audreyt++ | sub add_in_perl5 ($x, $y) {
r14572 | audreyt++ | use v5;
r14572 | audreyt++ | $x + $y;
r14572 | audreyt++ | }
r14572 | audreyt++ | add_in_perl5(42, 42); # 84
audreyt Limbic_Region: yes, and you can even nest
use v6-alpha; ... { use v5; ... { use v6-alpha; ... } } 17:19
TimToady new horizons in Prelude.pm...
audreyt "CPAN is our Prelude"
Limbic_Region thinks of the confusion that *could* ensue
svnbot6 r14573 | audreyt++ | * t/perl5/basic.t: Add an extra test of lexical "use v5"
[particle] sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2); 17:20
Limbic_Region overloading + in v6 but not v5 and printing the results of $x + $y in different scopes
[particle] ?eval sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2);
17:20 evalbot_r14569 is now known as evalbot_r14571
evalbot_r14571 OUTPUT[ā¤] Bool::True 17:20
[particle] *** Undeclared variable: "$h"
are you sure it's using perl5? 17:21
audreyt it says "12" here
it may very well be that 1) it's not yet r14572
[particle] ok, i'll wait for run.pugscode.org to catch up 17:22
audreyt also it will be nonsafe
so neither evalbot nor run.pugscode is going to help you
[particle] oh?
audreyt unless we settle on a good ops.pm mask for embperl5...
audreyt ponders what's a good set to use 17:23
let's make it safe.... 17:24
done 17:25
hopefully it won't open a huge can of worms...
svnbot6 r14574 | audreyt++ | * Mark Perl5 eval as safe under ops.pm
audreyt ?eval sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2); 17:26
17:26 evalbot_r14571 is now known as evalbot_r14573
evalbot_r14573 OUTPUT[12ā¤] Bool::True 17:26
audreyt there you go
[particle] yeehah!
yep works now, audreyt++ # as usual :) 17:28
audreyt :D 17:29
[particle] pugs++ # perl6 is *SO* cool!
audreyt :D 17:30
actually fglock++'s v6.pm implemented this first 17:31
I was just following his advise :)
we're working on eliminating as much redundant code and incompatibilities as possible betwen the two runtimes
it's a lot of fun :)
PerlJam and it looks from this perspective like you guys are leaving parrot out in the cold. 17:32
audreyt not on purpose...
we're also not touching JavaScript until the newAST is somewhat stable
easier to work on interop when you only have two points at a time...
?eval use v5; 1+1 17:33
17:33 evalbot_r14573 is now known as evalbot_r14574
evalbot_r14574 2 17:33
audreyt :D
evalbot now doubles at p5evalbot :)
*as
?eval use v5; use CGI 17:34
evalbot_r14574 Error eval perl5: "sub { use ops ($ENV{PUGS_SAFEMODE} ? (':default', 'binmode', 'entereval') : ()); my ($__evalbot_print) = @_;ā¤; use CGIā¤ā¤}"ā¤*** 'require' trapped by operation mask at (eval 2) line 4.ā¤ā¤Error: Undefined subroutine &main:: called.ā¤
audreyt good.
PerlJam: also it's somewhat easier to work in interop when there are ops to inter with... 17:35
[particle] perljam: parrot will catch up quickly after pge, tge, and past are reworked
i hope, *very* quickly 17:36
audreyt I sincerely hope that too
PerlJam right, I know you're not doing it on purpose. It's just an observation (primarily about the rapidity with which you guys work :)
er, guys and gals :)
audreyt you can use the gender-neutral "gals". fglock wouldn't mind :)
[particle] i'd love to get fglock's and audreyt's help once parrot's ready as a vm again 17:37
since there's been so much work on parser/emitter going on, it's fresh in your minds
audreyt *nod*
[particle] i just hope parrot will be ready soon, before things are forgotten
(since code is canon, there are no docs) 17:38
audreyt well as a VM it's not that related to parsing/emitting
but if you mean tge
[particle] yeah, i mean tree transforms
audreyt then yeah, reworking the current style into tge requires, like, thoughts. and a stable tge metalang
PerlJam I'd use "you people" but then I might offend the AIs ;-)
[particle] i like @larry's idea of a tree transform lang inside perl6 17:39
audreyt and I think it's just perl6 :)
[particle] that would make it so easy to operate with different back/front ends
audreyt I mean, structural unpacking with given/when is now strong enough to tree transform
and that's indeed my preferred style
[particle] has there been work towards using this style?
audreyt gaal worked on the underpinnings 17:40
note that Haskell is exactly the same style
just different syntax
[particle] great
audreyt so it requires a bit of porting, which I'm figuring out with fglock
[particle] so, if we can easily convert between PAST other ASTs, and tree transformations are in the same language (a perl6 dialect,) it should be quite straightforward to hook any parser to any emitter 17:42
audreyt that's the minip6 parser/transformer combinator plan I've advocated for some time now...
[particle] i'm on that train, too
audreyt and indeed fglock put that into reality with modular v6.pm last week
[particle] so, perl5 could become the vm for parrot's tcl 17:43
(once tge is reworked)
Limbic_Region [particle] - if you want to see that happen, suggest to mdiep that it *might* be possible but that you doubt it ;-) 17:44
17:44 hexmode joined
PerlJam though I haven't really been paying close attention to fglock's work, it seems the most exciting to me. Like when you're assembling a puzzle from pieces and you realize how a smaller structure you've assembled fits into the larger whole. 17:44
[particle] i'll do just that next week in chicago :)
PerlJam fglock's work seems to be a crucial piece to the perl6 puzzle
[particle] indeed. v6 is the new ponie 17:45
it has humps, and can go without water for long periods, and it's *cute*
Limbic_Region idly wonders if *this* xmas will be *the* xmas 17:48
less than 60 days left - probably not 17:49
17:49 nusgnaf joined
PerlJam What I think will happen is that one day we will realize that the implementations that we have do all the things we want perl6 to do and at that point perl6 will have de facto arrived. 17:50
TimToady how long that takes depends on whether one of the things we want from our implementations is world domination. :) 17:54
[particle] it hasn't arrived until the spec is done :)
Limbic_Region heh
[particle] define "world".... 17:55
Limbic_Region [particle] - the spec needn't be done
it need only be comprehensive and stable enough for alpha
PerlJam As long as it matches the implementation ... ;-)
TimToady S12 now uses ;; for explicit longest-longname notation. Please be on the lookout for other places that need patching. 18:20
audreyt TimToady++ 18:22
18:23 kanru joined 18:27 SubStack joined 18:28 elmex joined
TSa the multi colon forms are out now, right? 18:35
18:36 prism joined
audreyt right 18:37
TSa I try to summarize your explainiations but cannot remember all cases 18:40
so what exactly does a semicolon do to QS and VS? 18:41
is it that it drops the respective method locally from VS, right? 18:42
18:43 beppu joined 18:48 buetow joined, SubStack joined
wolverian en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expre..._languages I hope that quote isn't out of date :) 18:54
lambdabot tinyurl.com/y6nm4o
19:08 ofer1 joined 19:41 penk joined 19:42 penk joined
eviltwin_b fwiw I recall it still being worded roughly like that 19:48
svnbot6 r14575 | audreyt++ | * P/E/P6/P5-2: Implement the dispatch as ->$method instead of an expensive eval 19:53
r14575 | audreyt++ | because dynamic method names _does_ work with inheritance in Perl 5
Limbic_Region audreyt - has the hackathon started yet and if so - when does it end? 19:56
PerlJam Isn't it next week?
I guess for audreyt it might be one long continuous hackathon ;-) 19:57
Limbic_Region tomorrow according to her journal
"I've safely landed to Brazil, ready for tomorrow's hackathon with fglock++"
posted 2006-11-01
Limbic_Region read that this morning but apparently didn't catalog it 19:58
PerlJam oh, I was thinking of the Chicago hackathon
20:20 justatheory joined
TimToady 18000 tests++ 20:25
dmq umm, TimToady, I have finished coding some backtrackign control verbs, and i was wondering if you had any thoughts. 20:26
in perl5 obviously.
(?COMMIT) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails at this start point outright 20:27
TimToady this start point?
dmq (?CUT) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails, and doesnt try to match until a startpoint after the current position
yes, consider 'aaab'=~/a+b?(?COMMIT)(??{$count++})(?!)/ 20:29
count would be 3. 20:30
cause it could match starting at any of the 'a's.
and then there is (?ERROR) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails outright, and doesnt try to match at any subsequent start point. 20:31
TimToady that sounds more like P6's <commit>
dmq if you use 'aaabaaab'=~/a+b?(?XXX)(??{$count++})(?!)/ as the template then $count would be 6 for (?COMMIT), 2 for (?CUT) and 1 for (?ERROR) 20:33
TimToady and I'm sayin' your COMMIT doesn't show much commitment... :) 20:34
dmq heh. :-)
TimToady we also use <cut> for something a little different currently.
PerlJam dmq: what does (?!) do?
dmq its basically like a free floating possessive match operator.
TimToady it's a <fail> 20:35
dmq dmq: its always fails.
PerlJam gotcha
dmq yeah, (?FAIL) is implemented now, and in blead. my (?COMMIT) is too, but the name is subject to change.
(?CUT) and (?ERROR) im just preparing the patch for 20:36
PerlJam It's too bad we can't just swap in the perl6 regex engine :-)
dmq Ill refrain from commenting on that as Im a little biased towards the perl5 engine at this point. :-) 20:37
PerlJam obviously :)
But for some reason I like the punctuative names better than the shouting ones. If only you could make perl5 not shout so much ... 20:38
20:38 justatheory_ joined
dmq Anyway, i have to go. TimToady, hopefully you can ponder this and ill get back to you? 20:38
TimToady k
dmq yes, i can actually, i was thinking of making the backtracking verbs start with (*
which would allow lowercase verbs without any back-compat issues. 20:39
(*fail) (*commit) etc...
thanks TimToady. ciao all.
20:40 rodi joined 20:41 nekokak_ joined
Cugel my $donotuseItem = my $useItem = 0; --> I forget, but can I write this shorter in some way? 20:49
svnbot6 r14576 | audreyt++ | * Add the 0th sketch of MiniPerl6 Spec, by joint design of
r14576 | audreyt++ | fglock++ and audreyt++, to serve as the Unified Tree Transformation
r14576 | audreyt++ | And Grammar Engine Bootstrapping And Runtime Bootstrap And
r14576 | audreyt++ | World Domination language.
PerlJam Cugel: depends. You could get rid of one of the "my", but you'd have to add some more syntax to assign another 0 20:50
Cugel: or you could forego the assignment entirely and just rely on undef == 0 in numeric context 20:51
Cugel True, for some reason I always like to declare my variables in advance, even to 0. It's a leftover from Turbo Pascal.
PerlJam Cugel: the way you wrote it originally looks fine to me though. I wouldn't change it. 20:53
Cugel Okay. 20:54
It just looks a bit corny, but then, so do most of my Perl lines ;-)
20:56 bernhard joined 21:06 mako132 joined
svnbot6 r14577 | audreyt++ | * Some more plans on miniperl6-bootstrap. 21:07
21:12 fglock joined 21:17 SCalimlim joined 21:22 vel joined 21:34 eggzeck[laptop] joined 21:55 cmarcelo joined
cmarcelo @tell audreyt audrey and flavio: i will be a litte bit late tomorrow, so will be arriving ~ 9h00/9h30. (bad rain here today => i'm leaving campinas tomorrow early morning ["bem cedinho"]) 21:59
lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:00 justatheory joined 22:13 justatheory_ joined 22:14 mugwump_ joined
clkao seen audrety 22:14
jabbot clkao: I havn't seen audrety, clkao
clkao seen audreyt
jabbot clkao: audreyt was seen 3 hours 37 minutes 14 seconds ago
Debolaz (crossposting) Perl 6 is now officially vaporware, according to wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6 22:15
22:16 mugwump_ is now known as mugwump
PerlJam Debolaz: not any more. 22:17
jrockway wikipedia-- 22:18
pugs ... exists
mugwump also, Larry has announced a release date
Debolaz jrockway: Notice that it wasn't any particular implementation of perl 6 that was vaporware, it was the language itself. The specifications. They are the vaporware in this particular case. :)
jrockway more like flux-ware 22:19
rather than deciding on a set of specs that are bad, the contributers want perl 6 to be good
other languages aren't used to the concept, because "next version" to them means some bugfixes
php6 = unicode, perl6 = able to perform parallel operations with >>. syntax and has software transactional memory 22:20
a bit different
although those two examples appear to work Right Now (tm) ;) 22:21
Debolaz mugwump: Url? I can correct the article if I have a reference.
jrockway christmas?
Debolaz needs reference. 22:22
jrockway i would say, "send larry over to edit the wikipedia", but the creator of Eiffel did that and got into an editwar
some pre-teen "admin" told the creator of the language that he was wrong on a number of points and was no longer welcome to spread lies on wikipedia 22:23
pretty sad, wikipedia is mostly good
mugwump Debolaz: ok, I've put all the reference I can realisitically give on the page; he announced it at YAPC::Eu
isn't that right, TimToady ? :)
PerlJam jrockway: that's a slightly skewed characterisation of what happened.
jrockway it seemed like the admins were being stupid, though 22:24
PerlJam jrockway: yes, I'd agree with that.
Bertrand Meyer just wanted the fonts and formatting of code examples to be consistent with "the culture of Eiffel". Only there was some disagreement over said culture. 22:26
jrockway here's an excerpt from the current Talk page: "Then he tried to invalidate the GFDL, further showing that he has no respect for anything and he only wants his way."
ah
regardless, published sources are harder to dispute :)
so get one of those to back up the perl6 != vapor claim :)
PerlJam I just removed the vaporware edit and we'll see what happens. 22:28
22:37 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig 22:46 Limbic_Region joined 22:47 dduncan joined 22:57 justatheory joined 23:05 cjeris left 23:17 weinig is now known as weinig|food 23:19 justatheory_ joined 23:23 hexmode joined 23:47 Aankhen`` joined
eviltwin_b cute 23:57

Powered by Cro and the RakuĀ® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!