svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org/
Set by putter on 11 February 2007.
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Digital So I was reading about perl6, and caught the nugget that one of the most functional implementations of perl6 right now is written in Haskell. 01:42
Is this true? And if it is, do you think there is any chance I might find the person responsible, buy them a beer and spend the time they are drinking it heaping praise on their diseased genius? 01:43
revdiablo It's true 01:44
qmole heh yes
revdiablo Digital: You can blame/priase audreyt
Priase, even
Digital Is there a good reason for this, or ... ?
revdiablo Praise?
qmole but if you did catch audreyt she would probably tell you 100s of people deserve praise
revdiablo It took me 3 tries to type it right, sheesh 01:45
Digital I thought Haskell was one of those teaching languages that was mathematically brilliant, elegant beyond words and completely inappropriate for getting any real work done in.
revdiablo Digital: The story goes, it started out at a project to learn Haskell by writing a toy language. Audrey chose perl 6 as the "toy language", and it blossomed from there
allbery_b haskell is quite practical once you wrap your head around it. 01:46
but that wrapping takes some doing
Digital Can you compile haskell?
revdiablo Yep
allbery_b @where ghc
lambdabot haskell.org/ghc
allbery_b @version
lambdabot lambdabot 4p509, GHC 6.6 (OpenBSD i386)
darcs get www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/lambdabot 01:47
Digital Interesting.
Is it trolling to ask you people, who clearly know more about me than perl 6 (because I know only a little), what your opinion is of the idea that perhaps perl 6 is suffering from epic second-system effect? 01:48
qmole of course darcs is another example of 'real world' haskell :)
allbery_b haskell's actually quite nice for writing languages; the Reader monad encapsulates much of the hard work in managing variable scope, for example
revdiablo Digital: It could be trolling. That depends on what you're aiming for with the question. =)
allbery_b @quote TimToady second-system
lambdabot No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
allbery_b hm, thought someone saved that quote 01:49
revdiablo Digital: I don't think the idea is right, but I can see how it would seem like that
allbery_b @quote done.right
lambdabot No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
allbery_b feh
Digital rev: Nothing, really, that's just my opinion and I wonder what people in the know think of it.
From the outside it looks like perl 5 was pretty nice, and now perl 6 has been in development forever and we keep hearing about the jillion new features it will have.
allbery_b anyway, TimToady has been known to comment that perl6 is the second system effect done righht
revdiablo Digital: Well, it's a fair assessment 01:50
Digital and it makes me wonder what was so fundamentally broken with perl 5 that warranted a complete mulligan on the whole language rather than some evolutionary changes stretched out over time.
allbery_b actually p6 is getting firmed down at this point with an eye on releasing it
revdiablo Digital: Time will tell, I guess.
silug Dig: you should grab pugs and try it out. it's nice. 01:51
revdiablo Digital: Perl 5 has a long and ugly history. The language has a lot of baggage. It works fine, but all the edge cases have created lots of nooks and crannies for "evolutionary change" to fall and break its ankles.
Keep in mind, I love Perl 5. But to ignore its problems is not realistic
Digital rev: it sounds like the fix to that is dropping the crap rather than adding a bunch more. ;)
revdiablo Digital: Yeah, a bunch of crap in different directions, though. Like I said, I think time will tell. Personally, I am optimistic about Perl 6 01:52
allbery_b one thing perhaps not obvious from the current specs, although starting to become so finally, is that quite a lot of what's "added" will actually live in modules
(and likely won't exist immediately)
Digital What would you say the number one rad feature of perl 6 is? 01:54
@faq
lambdabot The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
jql does it have to work now, or just be proposed? :)
Patterner Strange Operators :)
Digital Hey, jql. Are you writing a perl6qt? 01:55
revdiablo Number one? Oh, I don't know. One thing I really like is the object system. And the type system seems nice. And the syntax cleanups. Oh, that's more than one. =)
jql I took a stab at it 3 years ago, but I recognized then that Parrot was flawed
perl6 still gives me much hope, though
after all, perl6 can already run PerlQt
well, pugs
Digital I suppose that's true.
silug last time i tried to build parrot, it wouldn't cooperate. i should try it again.
Digital The reason I was trying to get the bot to tell me where to find a FAQ was to find out if perl6 was going to be fully backwards-compatible. 01:56
revdiablo Not at the source level
Digital Er, what other level is there in perl?
silug it's not, but there are ways to get it to do perl5-ish things (like regular expressions)
allbery_b that's not entirely accurate 01:57
revdiablo Digital: Pugs can run perl 5 code by embedding the perl 5 runtime, for example
Digital I would hope the newest version of the Practical Extraction and Report Language would maintain full support for regular expressions.
revdiablo Digital: So the perl 6 syntax is not the same, but one can use perl 5 modules, etc
jql depends on your definition of full
revdiablo Perl 6 has a new syntax for regular expressions, too. They're called rules. 01:58
Digital I hope they still look like line noise, there's nothing I enjoy more than writing a long, inscrutable and hopelessly unmaintainable sequence of slashes and shifted symbol characters.
allbery_b ?eval my $a = 5; { use 5; print "$a\n" }
01:58 evalbot_r15335 is now known as evalbot_r15342
evalbot_r15342 1.0 01:58
jql lol 01:59
allbery_b I don't think that's embeddinga runtime, I think that's just switching parsers on the fly
revdiablo allbery_b: I thought it embeds perl5 runtime right now?
jql Digital: Perl6 does try to introduce bracket-reform in regular expressions. (?:) becomes [], and (?everything-else) and [] becomes <> 02:00
allbery_b just checked my last buildlog after getting lost in the makefiles... don't see the perl5 core being linked in 02:07
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revdiablo pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/various_uses_of.html 02:15
lambdabot Title: Pugs: Various uses of embedded Perl 5.
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allbery_b ?eval 1 07:49
evalbot_r15342 1
tene ?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> := $v; %h.perl.say; %h<b>.say 07:55
evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[{("a" => "x"), ("b" => "y"), ("c" => "z")}ā¤omgā¤] Bool::True
tene ?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> := $v; %h.yaml.say; %h<b>.say
evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[--- ā¤? aā¤: xā¤ā¤? bā¤: yā¤ā¤? cā¤: zā¤ā¤ā¤omgā¤] Bool::True
tene .perl and .yaml aren't smart about rebinding elements of hashes. 07:56
allbery_b hm. looks like a candidate for a new test, if it isn't already 07:57
actually I find myself wondering what that should do 07:59
(:= vs. = on a hash element that is)
tene allbery_b: t/operators/binding/hashes.t 08:00
allbery_b ah, yeh, I get it 08:03
allbery_b will have to see what that test looks like in his running smoke 08:05
tene the issue isn't with the binding, though, it's with .perl and .yaml 08:06
allbery_b is it? or is it with %hash? that's what I want to see
tene In my test case there, %h<b> has the right data, as confirmed by t/operators/binding/hashes.t, but .perl and .yaml on it show the value before the rebinding 08:08
allbery_b ?eval my %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); my $v = 'foo'; $h<b> = $v; %h.values.say 08:09
evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[xyzā¤] Bool::True
allbery_b ding!
oops 08:10
?eval my %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); my $v = 'foo'; $h<b> := $v; %h.values.say
evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[xyzā¤] Bool::True
allbery_b hm, actually the first one suggests oddness too
tene Huh.
allbery_b something's generally wrong with hashes accessed as a whole like that 08:11
?eval %h = (:a<x>, :b<y>, :c<z>); $v = 'omg'; %h<b> = $v; %h.perl.say; %h<b>.say 08:14
evalbot_r15342 OUTPUT[{("a" => "x"), ("b" => "omg"), ("c" => "z")}ā¤omgā¤] Bool::True
allbery_b hm, it gets that right, though
peculiar
so, maybe two different bugs there :) 08:15
meppl good night 08:25
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svnbot6 r15343 | kudra++ | Summary complete 09:10
09:17 iblechbot joined
svnbot6 r15344 | kudra++ | Placeholder 09:28
devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 4-10 February, 2007 <pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/weekly_...2.html> 09:34
tene Should eval('slightly malformed yaml',:lang<yaml>); be able to cause pugs to die? 10:46
?eval eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>) 10:48
10:48 evalbot_r15342 is now known as evalbot_r15344
evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)ā¤ 10:48
moritz tene: I guess it should not, just set $! 10:51
tene: you should commit it as a test case 10:52
tene moritz: as I recall, tests that kill the interpreter aren't good.
moritz ?eval eval(eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>)) 10:54
evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)ā¤
tene need to quote the outer eval
moritz right
?eval eval('eval("- *a\n a: b\n- *a\n b: c\n- \n c:&a\n",:lang<yaml>)') 10:55
evalbot_r15344 pugs: user error (moose!)ā¤
moritz tene: read t/README for what to do with "hard parsefail"
tene Which folder should I put that test in? 11:00
moritz currently I don't see a good one, so just use xx-uncategorized 11:02
gaal that's not a very mooseful error :( 11:11
you can put it in t/unspecced also; i think there's an eval_yaml test there 11:12
tene should I add it to eval_yaml.t ? 11:14
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moritz I'd say yes ;) 11:18
tene Hmm. I guess I can't commit anymore. 11:30
moritz tene: I'll try to give a commit bit 11:31
tene: just query me your email address 11:32
svnbot6 r15345 | moritz++ | disabled 10smoke patch in debian/rules to prevent build failures 11:47
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svnbot6 r15346 | kudra++ | Yet another summary 14:23
14:27 gnuvince_ joined 14:29 buetow joined
svnbot6 r15347 | rodi++ | fixed use_ok 14:38
r15348 | rodi++ | fixed use_ok
r15349 | rodi++ | typo fix 14:39
r15350 | kudra++ | Marked as hidden all threads covered in previous weeks 14:42
devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 11-17 February, 2007 <pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/weekly_...3.html> 14:43
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devbot6 dev: Ticket #8 (task updated): Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references. <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8#comment:1> 17:06
svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | closes ticket 8. dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8 17:09
r15351 | diakopter++ | Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references.
r15351 | diakopter++ | Removed from TASKS for redundancy. 17:10
devbot6 dev: Ticket #8 (task closed): Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references. <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8#comment:2>
svnbot6 r15351 | diakopter++ | Sorry if some generated files are updated wrongly.
lambdabot Title: #8 (Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references.) - Pugs - Trac
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devbot6 dev: Ticket #11 (task updated): Remove all unconditional SKIP/TODO flags from t/. <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/11#comment:1> 17:24
dev: Ticket #12 (task updated): Tests directory scaling problem. <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/12#comment:1> 17:26
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offby1 how does about a pugs built with PUGS_EMBED="parrot" differ from one built without that? 17:59
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offby1 i.e., what does it do with parrot? 17:59
Does it actually generate parrot byte code, and have parrot run that code, instead of interpreting the code itself?
moritz offby1: you can choose the backend with a commmand line option... 18:01
offby1 do tell
moritz offby1: and it defaults to intepreting it
offby1: and if you embed parrot, you can choose parrot
offby1 moritz: so if I say something like "./pugs -Bparrot my-code.p6", it'll actually compile to parrot bytecode, then have parrot run the result, instead of interpreting it itself?! 18:02
That'd be great, because presumably it'd be a ton faster.
moritz I think so, yes
offby1 this is worth a try!
offby1 tries
moritz offby1: but it's not so fully implemented as the haskell bakcend 18:03
offby1 hmm, strange error message: I deliberately used a meaningless word after the -B, and expected an error along the lines of "pugs cannot find the back end named 'frobotzle', but instead I see this: 18:04
/usr/local/src/langs/pugs/pugs -Bfrobotzle anagrams.p6
pugs: user error (*** user error (*** No compatible subroutine found: "&truncate"
at ./bag.pm line 41, column 12-31)
at anagrams.p6 line 1, column 1)
not encouraging
is this one of those semi-abandoned features that isn't really meant to be used?
moritz I guess so ;) 18:05
offby1 pity
oh well
moritz well, if perl6 is meant to be implemented in Perl 6, pugs with haskell backend is enough to bootstrap it 18:06
offby1 sure
moritz ans perl6 will use parrot as its main backend
offby1 sure 18:07
in theory, one would only need run pugs once, to run the perl6-to-parrot compiler.
moritz right
offby1 then one waves goodbye to pugs, and continues development by running that compiler on parrot
so _if_ pugs is mostly meant as a way to do that bootstrap step, I can see that it wouldn't need to emit parrot code. But something made me think it did anyway. 18:08
moritz well, I guess we wouldn't abandon pugs fully, since it will be more complete than perl6 when we bootstrap perl6
offby1 sure, but I said "in theory".
Which assumes that is complete.
moritz offby1: its optimised for fun, and different backends are fun
the js backend is nice as well ;) 18:09
offby1 how would I know if the parrot backend were working? I fear I cannot count on the lack of an obvious error message.
moritz you can run the testsuite with parrot as a backend 18:10
offby1 hmm
"make test-pir"? 18:11
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moritz or make smoke-pir 18:11
offby1 odd, it's rebuilding pugs.
moritz did you build it with parrot backend in first place? 18:12
offby1 no.
moritz the build system is a bit broken anyway...
offby1 as area all build systems.
s/area/are/
moritz when you type 'make' twice in a row, it still compiles some stuff at the second run
offby1 sure.
as do many build systems :-)
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offby1 for some reason writing correct Makefiles is really hard. 18:13
moritz and what is more disturbing: if you run 'make install' after make, it still compiles stuff - assuming you are root it pollutes your source tree with uid0-files
offby1 well, I never do "make install", for that sort of reason.
odd, it needs a perl5 module that I don't have: Module/Install/Admin.pm 18:14
moritz I use dpkg-buildpackage ;) 18:15
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offby1 I use GNU "stow" 18:15
this is odd
/usr/bin/perl -Iinc "-MExtUtils::MY" -e "MY->fixin(shift)" /usr/local/src/langs/pugs/blib/script/pugs
cd perl5/Data-Capture && perl Makefile.PL && make
Can't open for input:
No such file or directory at /usr/share/perl5/Module/Install/Admin.pm line 135.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Makefile.PL line 3.
I dunno what that means.
moritz did your read README and INSTALL and install all depencies? 18:16
offby1 I read README and INSTALL a long time ago.
I installed enough dependencies for pugs to work standalone.
but this is the first time I've tried "make test-pir".
I wonder if I need to rebuild pugs with PUGS_EMBED="parrot". Docs aren't clear. 18:17
moritz I'm just now running 'make smoke-pir', and I'm in the smoke phase... 18:18
and I did'nt rebuild with PUGS_EMBED="parrot"
offby1 :-(
same problem.
moritz I still think it's a missing perl5 modul, but I'm not sure 18:19
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offby1 Can you paste the output that starts around line 30 -- mine looks like this -- 18:19
Configuring Pugs-6.2.13...
configure: Dependency pugs-fps-any: using pugs-fps-0.7 ...
perhaps that'll illuminate something
moritz perhaps, but I'm the wrong person to ask :( 18:20
offby1 well, maybe I'll see something obvious.
moritz I'm happy that pugs builds for me ;)
offby1: ok, go on then
but don't post it here ;))
offby1 what do you mean "go onm then"? I want _you_ to paste _your_ output.
so _I_ can look at it.
moritz how do you think that's going to help..? 18:21
offby1 maybe I'll see a difference between the stuff that your "Configure" found, and mine; and I'll slap my forehead and say "Of course; I need the Foomatic module". 18:22
my forehead has a callous on it from similar slaps in the past.
moritz ok
offby1
.oO("callus"?)
thanks
moritz wait a sec, I'll restart make
and perhaps prepend a 'make clean' 18:23
offby1 gosh, thanks
that's above and beyond
pugs takes an awful long time to build, if I recall correctly. 18:24
moritz I can use 'make soon' ;)
offby1 huh
moritz and my laptop's only other job is to crack some password files - nothing important ;)
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offby1 glances around nervously. 18:26
offby1 subtly points to moritz in a way that only the FBI agent will notice
moritz offby1: it's the universities password list ;)
offby1: and certainly not _your_ univeristy...
I told the admins it's a security hole, but they won't listen without proof-of-concept ;) 18:27
offby1 now, how do you know what U I attend?
moritz offby1: are you studying phyics in WĆ¼rzburg, Germany? 18:28
offby1: if not, I'm right ;)
it's called "educated guessing"
and I probably knew you if you did
allbery_b moritz: you should still be rather careful about that, thye could still choose to punish you for unauthorized access or something instead of doing something about it 18:29
moritz allbery_b: you're totally right - but I know the admins, and they are quite ok... I just won't modify any files, so that it's no "sabotage" 18:30
and to be hones, blowfish passwords are a pain to crack ;)
offby1 Why, I've lived in WĆ¼rzburg for years!
offby1 glances around nervously.
offby1 quickly googles 18:31
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moritz offby1: what are you googling for? 18:36
Khisanth moritz: building pugs is only around 15minutes, it's the testing that takes a very long time
moritz Khisanth: it depends on how much RAM you have available... if your maschine starts swapping, it takes much longer :( 18:37
Khisanth oh well yes then 5 hours
offby1 moritz: WĆ¼rzburg, so I can pretend I've lived there for years
allbery_b heheh 18:38
allbery_b notes that building pugs takes noticeably longer than 15 minutes, but it did improve considerably when he maxed the AM on his g4 macmini :)
*RAM
moritz offby1: moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/pugs-smoke-pir <-- I'm currently uploading the buildlog, it will take some time
offby1 adding more RAM to my Mac Mini was the best thing I ever did for it.
moritz: thanks 18:39
moritz offby1: np
allbery_b maybe someday I'll get the intel version, but for now it's good enough for what I do with it
moritz uploaded
PPC is way cooler than i386 if you ask me ;)
offby1 moritz: hmph, no relevant-looking difference between yours and mine :-( 18:41
guess it's time for a mailing-list question
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allbery_b by rights I ought to build/smoke pugs twice: once for ghc6.6, once with the built/smoked (if it succeeded) ghc6.7 :) 18:43
hrm, except that I think pugs requires -fvia-C which is currently b0rked 18:44
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fglock hi 19:02
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svnbot6 r15352 | diakopter++ | correcting uncommenting mistake. 19:16
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phiker hi 19:17
what happened to #cpan6? 19:18
diakopter phiker: no one sent anything to the mailing lists after September 2006? 19:19
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phiker diakopter, ok, so the project is dead? 19:20
diakopter searches for a death certificate
phiker are there plans to work on it again? 19:21
diakopter my guess is that something .... less ambitious .... will come about. 19:22
phiker you mean with only perl support or something like that? 19:23
diakopter we'll see. do you have resources you're considering committing/contributing or something? 19:24
phiker no, I was just interested in Perl6 and thought about the future of CPAN, then I found CPAN6
as I can see, many documents describing the design have been commited 19:25
but not details about how to actually implement it
diakopter from what I can tell, Perl 6 implementations will be able to use CPAN as it is
phiker so nothing will change? 19:26
ok
diakopter phiker: do you have ideas to improve/extend the CPAN? 19:31
phiker diakopter, uhm 19:40
IĀ“ll think about it :)
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phiker diakopter, syntax highlighting for POD documentation 20:12
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phiker diakopter, as on perldoc.perl.org 20:26
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phiker gn8 21:10
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aufrank TimToady: rule trait_auxiliary { <sym: is> <ident><postcircumfix>? 22:47
this is missing a closing }
(I think) 22:48
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gnuvince_ ls 23:30
Patterner Access denied. 23:31
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Caelum is there a good tutorial for pugs? 23:33
revdiablo Tutorial for what? 23:34
The language? The internals? Something else?
Caelum the language
Caelum figures that's a good place to start 23:35
moritz Caelum: do you know perl5?
Caelum: if yes, you could read through www.programmersheaven.com/2/Perl6-FAQ
lambdabot Title: Perl6-FAQ at Programmers Heaven
revdiablo perlcabal.org/syn/Differences.html
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lambdabot Title: Perl6::Perl5::Differences 23:35
revdiablo That's good if you know perl 5, too
Caelum does, thank you!
putter fglock: hi :) 23:41
svnbot6 r15353 | tene++ | Parsing some weird yaml with eval can make pugs die badly. 23:45
moritz tene++ I see you commit bit now works ;)
tene moritz: I forgot that the pugs checkout I have on this system was still from openfoundry 23:46
i haven't used this box in quite a while, but my laptop died last week.
moritz tene: that explains it ;) 23:48
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