pugscode.org | temporary feather address: perl6.wall.org | sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
Set by allbery_b on 24 March 2007.
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devbot6 dev: Ticket #12 (task updated): Tests directory scaling problem. <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/12#comment:2> 01:32
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Lorn hi ppl 03:06
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perlmonkey2 Hi Lorn. 03:38
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gaal short and sweet intro to CLOS: eval.apply.googlepages.com/guide.html 04:48
lambdabot Title: Warp Speed Introduction to CLOS 04:49
wolverian I certainly see multis and protos there .. just in another form :) 05:01
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Khisanth wolverian: protoss? :) 05:45
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Tene Heh. 05:50
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svnbot6 r15833 | andara++ | [runpugs] new server backend, fixing some obscure bugs. 10:02
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riffraff hi 10:20
moritz hi
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OwlEye hi 14:01
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cj hi OwlEye 14:34
ingy: anything new in your life? Seen Colin recently?
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nagayama hi 16:35
perlmonkey2 hello 16:37
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eveer ?eval 1+1 16:39
evalbot_r15831 2
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moritz ?eval 16:51
evalbot_r15831 No code to eval given.
moritz ?eval for 2..4 { say $^num; }
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[2ā¤3ā¤4ā¤] undef
moritz can anybody tell me where $^num is specced? 16:52
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[particle] $^ is specified with the other sigils 16:59
(twigils, really) 17:00
(reloading browser...)
moritz these twigils are hard to grep for ;-) 17:01
[particle] S02 17:02
$^foo self-declared formal parameter
moritz I found that, but that's not too helpfull ;-) 17:03
does that mean that I may use any name?
?eval for 1 .. 2 { say $^foo, $^bar; } 17:04
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[12ā¤] undef
moritz hey, that's... magic
[particle] yes
i read on this channel that they would be indexed in lexicographic order, but that sounds... funny
and it's not how it's currently implemented in pugs, as you see above 17:05
however, it would allow { $^b cmp $^a } to work as you might expect
moritz it is for sort {$^b <=> $^a} I guess
[particle] yep
moritz TimToady: do self-declared formal parameters get their values in lexicographic order? 17:06
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eveer hi, takeshi! 17:26
geoffb ?eval { say $^foo, $^bar }.(1 .. 2) 17:27
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[12ā¤] Bool::True
geoffb ?eval { say $^foo, $^bar }.(4, 1) 17:28
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[41ā¤] Bool::True
geoffb yep, it's borken all right
moritz geoffb: so it _should_ print 21 in the first example? 17:29
[particle] l11c sorting on unicode var names will be interesting. it may vary based on locale, no? 17:31
moritz probalby, yes 17:32
[particle] fun.
moritz in German for example Ƥ is sorted as a - I don't know if you'd like to see that in plain English
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Jedai Well but ōæ½xE4 in plain English is kinda seldom... 17:48
offby1 indeed
moritz ;-) 17:49
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moritz in English you even write "Ueberhacker" instead of using the proper "Ɯber.." 17:50
integral most English people would just write "uber..." though unfortunately
moritz or that, yes 17:51
moritz can't get used to that
offby1 that's how I'd write it too. 17:52
moritz
.oO(off by two dots ;-)
 17:56
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polettix moritz: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%9Cber is the note wrong then? 17:59
acc
moritz: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cber is the note wrong then?
lambdabot Title: Ɯber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
moritz polettix: which note? 18:01
polettix "The title of this article contains the character Ć¼. Where it is unavailable or not desired, the name may be represented as ueber."
moritz polettix: Ɯ is normally transliterated as Ue, that's write
polettix still wonders how to write it in its italian keyboard ;)
moritz polettix: so it's right
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polettix ?eval ((-1+0i)**0.25)**4 18:10
evalbot_r15831 1645504557321206492089141148895406768524688025302506974512605841/6582018229284824168619876730229402019930943462534319453394436096
polettix ?eval ((-1+0i)**0.25)**4.000000000000001
evalbot_r15831 -1.0 + -7.657177843178875e-16i
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moritz ?eval print ((-1+0i)**0.25)**4 18:13
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[0.2500000000000000683580865766192366900403] Bool::True
moritz '**' with complex numbers seems to be rather broken 18:19
polettix it seems that there's a weird interaction with integer exponents 18:20
moritz yes 18:22
[particle] ?eval print ((-1+0i)**0.25)**(4+0i) 18:23
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[0.2500000000000000683580865766192366900403] Bool::True
[particle] ?eval print ((-1+0i)**(0.25+0i))**(4+0i)
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[0.2500000000000000683580865766192366900403] Bool::True
offby1 idly wonders if perl6 will have modular exponentiation built in :-)
polettix ?eval print ((-1+0i)**0.25**(4+0.00000000001i))
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[0.9999247018391445 + 1.2271538285719925e-2i] Bool::True 18:24
offby1 "it's got bloody well everything else"
polettix ?eval print ((-1+0i)**0.25**(4+0.0000000000001i))
evalbot_r15831 OUTPUT[0.9999247018391445 + 1.2271538285719925e-2i] Bool::True
[particle] yep, it's not related to complex/int, it's definitely **
moritz offby1: it doesn't have algebraic expressions :(
offby1: like simplifying "a**2 + 2*a*b+b**" to "(a+b)**2" 18:25
polettix ahahhahah
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moritz but that's rather hard to implement, I guess ;) 18:28
at least if you want it to be good 18:29
Khisanth that seems like something that is better left in a module 18:31
offby1 moritz: awww. 18:33
Jedai Well it's not even always possible
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moritz Jedai: what? 18:33
Jedai So I guess unless Perl6 is to become a specialized language 18:34
moritz : algebraic expression simplification
moritz Jedai: of course there are expressions that can't be simplified
Jedai: otherwise ever expression would be reducable to the empty expression ;-) 18:35
I like Mathematica, but I fear the overhead
Jedai I don't want Perl6 to be Mathematica, for sure ! 18:36
moritz well, it has conventions that are very strange for "normal" programming languages 18:37
integral err, Perl 6 is extensible. You can do anything you want in an addon module. Why is everyone so obsessed about getting their pet feature "into perl6"?
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moritz like calling functions with foo[bar], and a space as multiplication 18:37
Jedai I guess because it already has so many features
integral The smaller core perl 6 is, the easier it is to actually produce it.
Jedai I can't agree more 18:38
moritz integral: I'm not really trying to make that a p6 core feature, I know it would change the language too much
integral anyway, the RFC process was YEARS ago.
Khisanth Jedai: one bad turn deserves another?
Jedai integral : But the specification is evolving even now. 18:39
integral Jedai: But not the actual style, spirit or extent of the language.
Jedai Khisanth: ? Sorry, my english isn't that good
integral : I was just trying to answer your "why" ;) 18:40
integral TBH, looking at the commit messages to p6l I only see small changes that tweak existing stuff, not whole new features
Jedai Yes, the specification is now rather stable. I was just pointing out that there was evolution beyond the RFCs :) 18:47
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svnbot6 r15834 | pmurias++ | a vaporware TH based haskell to p6 translator (can translate integers :) 18:47
pmurias hi
moritz hi 18:48
Tene Hi!
pmurias ?eval -> (...) {...} 18:54
evalbot_r15831 Error: ā¤Unexpected "...)"ā¤expecting formal parameter or ")"
pmurias ?eval -> () {...}
evalbot_r15831 ->{Syn "block" {App &fail_ (: "... - not yet implemented");ā¤ Noop}}
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pmurias has anyone tried writting a haskell to perl6 translator? 19:04
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integral keeps pondering hacking a parrot emittor to ghc but is scared off by how BIG ghc is :-/ 19:06
[particle] how many emitters are there for ghc?
integral There's a C one, and a native code one, and some bits and pieces of Java and .Net 19:07
It's not bad because it's from Cmm which is already fairly close to a PIR view of the world
[particle] well, we have a partial .net -> pbc converter
integral has been hacking at a YHC bytecode -> pir converter to learn some parrot stuff 19:08
pmurias tried that too, but couldn't get the python api to work 19:09
integral I just wrote my own YBC parser in perl; it's just about well enough specified to do
pmurias what did you use for parsing bytecode? 19:10
integral unpack, and rejigging their XML->python XSLT file to convert to perl 19:11
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pmurias did you release it anywhere 19:13
?
integral try svn.cabbage.org.uk/pchs/trunk/
It's very incomplete at code generation, but fine for parsing. It has a very basic, but usable way of converting from stack to register code. Not quite as good as what jonathan uses for the .Net stuff afaict 19:14
pmurias 404 19:15
integral err, yes, it would be svn.cabbage.org.uk/svn/pchs/trunk/
lambdabot Title: Revision 25: /trunk
integral gives lambdabot a cookie
perlmonkey2 How do you all find time to work on this during the weekdays? 19:20
[particle] time dialation 19:21
integral hasn't for a couple of weeks :-( 19:22
pmurias what is the equivalent of a join in haskell? 19:25
s/of a join/of join()/
allbery_b concat? 19:26
integral intercalcate (or something similarly weird) 19:27
(intersperse + concat roughly)
pmurias i want the perl function join
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pmurias should \a b -> ... be translated to -> ($a,$b) {...}??? 19:34
s/???/?/
integral -> $a { -> $b { ... } } surely? 19:35
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OwlEye hey lichtkind :) 19:38
lichtkind ixhi
:)
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lichtkind OwlEye: bin bisserl traurig werde heiss duschen und mich zurĆ¼cjziehen 19:40
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pmurias ?eval sub f($a) {-> $b {return "$a and $b"}};f(1) 19:46
evalbot_r15831 ->{Syn "block" {App &return (: ā¤ App &infix:~ (: ā¤ Var $a, ā¤ App &infix:~ (: " and ", App &infix:~ (: Var $b, ""))))}}
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pmurias ?eval sub f($a) {-> $b {return "$a and $b"}};f(1)(2) 19:47
evalbot_r15831 (no output)
pmurias ?eval sub f($a) {-> $b {return "$a and $b"}};(f(1))(2)
evalbot_r15831 (no output)
lichtkind OwlEye: hab recht heftig getrƤumt
OwlEye lichtkind :-( *knuddel* 19:48
lichtkind :) 19:51
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szabgab good evening 19:57
Tene Sure is. :)
szabgab I am trying to build Pugs on a newly installed Ubuntu Feisty beta
Tene Sounds like fun. :) 19:58
szabgab ghc6 is installed using aptitude but it complains about: *** Could not load the "mtl" package in your GHC installation.
Tene Looks like ghc is missing some packages that pugs needs. Ask your package manager about other ghc packages, perhaps ghc-extralibs. 19:59
gaal szabgab: aptitude install libghc6-mtl-dev and a few others
-network- prolly
Tene Yes, listen to gaal. 20:00
szabgab gaal: thanks
gaal np
moritz libghc6-plugins-dev and libghc6-network-dev are listed in debian/control
Tene doesn't know enough about debian packages.
gaal hs-plugin is optional
moritz though libghc6-mtl-dev ist installed on my maschine as well
gaal it's for eval :lang<haskell> 20:01
mtl is not optional
and I
'm not here :) &
szabgab it passed that part already, thanks
svnbot6 r15835 | szabgab++ | mention libghc6-mtl-dev in Makefile.PL 20:07
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TimToady hi, you guys are on the screen at Brown University 20:11
[particle] waves to everyone at Brown
diakopter hello Bears.
offby1 beams brown particles at the Chicago Bears 20:12
moritz szabgab: while you are at it, you could add it to the build depencies in debian/control as well
spinclad good aftern, Providence
TimToady okay, switch to talk now 20:13
bbl &
moritz ;-)
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spinclad ?eval sub f($a) {sub ($b) {$a}}; f(1)(2) 20:14
evalbot_r15831 \1
spinclad ?eval sub f($a) {sub ($b) {$b}}; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 \2
spinclad ?eval sub f($a) { -> ($b) {$a}}; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 \1
spinclad ?eval sub f($a) { -> ($b) {$b}}; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 \2
spinclad pmurias: you may want to lose the 'return' you had, it wants to return from the call to f itself 20:16
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pasteling "szabgab" at 192.117.127.193 pasted "Compilation error" (22 lines, 862B) at sial.org/pbot/24058 20:16
spinclad ?eval sub f($a) { -> ($b) {return $a}}; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 (no output)
szabgab so perl Makefile.PL now works but I get a compilation error, see the link above 20:17
spinclad (which already got the -> {...} to return) 20:18
s/to return/ return to it/
s/return/returned/
szabgab what is this "setup configure" I am supposed to run? 20:19
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pmurias ?eval sub f($a) {-> $b {"$a and $b"}};f(1)(2) 20:24
evalbot_r15831 "1 and 2"
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pmurias spinclad: thanks 20:25
spinclad sub f($a) {sub ($b) {return "$a and $b"}}; f(1)(2)
hm.. thought that would work 20:26
(return from inner sub)
pmurias dduncan: hi
moritz spinclad: perhaps with an ?eval in front?
Tene spinclad: you didn't ?eval
spinclad ?eval sub f($a) {sub ($b) {return "$a and $b"}}; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 "1 and 2"
spinclad right, duh
dduncan pmurias, hi
Tene ?eval sub f ($a) { -> $b { "$a and $b" } }; f(1)(2)
evalbot_r15831 "1 and 2"
pmurias dduncan: when will you release QDBMS? 20:28
dduncan this weekend I hope ... maybe even late today if I'm not diverted to other things 20:29
pmurias is switching from jifty and would love to give it a try
dduncan keep in mind though that its first release is only pre-alpha, and about as usable as Pugs in its first few months
it will take a few more releases before it can replace anything
however, after the first release, it should be easy for myself or others to hack features on to it 20:30
geoffb pmurias: you are switching *from* jifty?
Out of curiosity, why?
dduncan in any event, you may end up using both of them together 20:31
geoffb I was just thinking it was getting interesting enough to play with
dduncan since QDRDBMS is just as much a tool to make DBI wrappers with as being a standalone
so tools like Jifty may refactor to use it internally, while presenting a nicer interface
pmurias i do all of my gui in ajax(a single page) so i use only the webservice api 20:34
s/only/only use/ 20:35
i got too frustrated with getting jifty to use only utf-8 (instead of the abdominable iso-8859-1) so desided it wasn't worth it 20:36
s/getting/trying to get/ 20:37
geoffb wow, seems like something they would have gotten right!
pmurias they don't set iso-* explicitly anywhere, so it's probably a case of my environment being screwed up somehow 20:40
geoffb ah
Distros are starting to default to UTF-8 locales, so in the future that may just fix itself .... 20:41
pmurias it don't use mason at all, so i could have skipped the default setting code somehow
i have set a utf-8 locale at my box, but i'm using gentoo so i would have to go on a holiday to recompile my whole system :( 20:44
lichtkind TimToady: i have written that in the time before release of perl 1.0 you biggest halpers was Daniel Faigin and Mark Biggar. is that aproximatly right? 20:45
pmurias Jifty::Collection isn't designed for complex, so i'm not to keen on it too 20:47
geoffb Well, maybe I'll just stick with hand-rolled Mason and mod_perl stuff then .... 20:51
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pmurias i only need a simple webservice api POST --> JSON, so web templating is needless in this case 20:55
geoffb nodnod 20:56
pmurias i'll use CGI::Fast + lighttpd as it seem the simplest option
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geoffb OK, that leads me to another question -- what is the appeal of lighttpd + CGI, rather than mod_perl? 20:57
(that's an honest question, not a troll)
Tene I think they're more for different applications. 20:58
geoffb Tene.last_comment.get_details(); 20:59
pmurias i configured lighttpd more recently (wanted to use it with jifty)
lighttpd is likely faster, and mod_perl is more magical 21:00
Tene geoffb: if you're doing a lot of database work, for example, it's a pain to open and close a new db connection for every page view. 21:02
pmurias Tene: do you have to do it in mod_perl? 21:03
geoffb Tene: sure, that's what Apache::DBI is for
Tene I'm fairly certain that you can't have persistant state and such with CGI::Fast and lighttpd, but I'm not a reliable or accurate source for anything today.
pmurias Tene: on disk or in memory?
moritz Tene: I thought CGI::Fast allows that
Tene moritz: like I said, I'm incompetent today. correct me if I'm wrong. 21:04
pmurias the example in the docs does it
Tene pmurias: persistant db connection?
Huh.
'kay, ignore me.
geoffb It's my personal belief that for any important feature, and for all environments more than a couple years old, P(env has feature) = ~1 21:07
If the environment is popular, and it's missing something really damn useful, someone will add it.
Tene like CPAN for PHP?
;) 21:08
geoffb Well, they did it for JS ...
but then, the '~' is important. Occasionally you find a gap.
Tene nods.
geoffb Or the env authors find a different local maximum that they prefer. Like Python's "batteries included" philosophy. 21:09
Tene Yeah.
Aankhen`` Tene: PEAR?
Only PEAR is quite useless compared to CPAN.
Tene Aankhen``: "Total number of packages: 437"
Aankhen`` geoffb: JSAN hasn't exactly caught the JavaScript-using world's imagination quite yet...
Tene: Well, yeah, like I said. :-)
Khisanth CTAN :) 21:10
Aankhen`` Comprehensive Tanning Archive Network?
geoffb That's because, all trolling aside, JS got really damn widely used by A) non-CS people, and B) way before JSAN was created, so millions of JS coders don't know about JSAN, or even that it's worth looking for
Khisanth except CTAN came first
geoffb TeX.
Khisanth also in many instances it seems like it is much easier to work with JS when NOT using any of the popular libraries which all has some fault or another 21:11
geoffb Yeah, lots of weak code, no core set of rockin' stuff that everyone agrees to just use and be done with. 21:12
Aankhen`` geoffb: Mostly because JS doesn't really have any easy way to handle namespaces.
s/namespaces/packages/, sorry.
geoffb Aankhen``: I was about to say, namespaces they have. ;-) 21:13
Aankhen`` Heh.
That's one of the things about JS2 which I want most.
geoffb will be damned happy when that nice AS VM is merged into production Firefox ....
Aankhen`` AS? 21:14
geoffb Adobe ActionScript (basically just JS).
Aankhen`` Ah, ActionScript.
Yeah, but that won't happen before 2008, IIRC.
geoffb The newest version is not only newer in spec compliance, but is based on a VM that's about 10x as fast as the current Firefox one.
Aankhen`` Which means we might see it some time around 2009.
geoffb nod. 21:15
Aankhen`` Er, see it in production Firefox.
geoffb A man can dream. I'm *here*, after all.
Aankhen`` Hehe.
pmurias action script?
Aankhen`` What I really want is Firefox with an embedded Parrot 1.0.0. =)
geoffb pmurias: branded JavaScript
Aankhen`` Actually, it's branded ECMAScript.
Khisanth geoffb: so you are waiting for JS on Perl6 on Parrot? :P 21:16
geoffb Aankhen``: NODNOD
Khisanth: I'd settle for iblech coming back.
pmurias my irrsi window was scrolled up so i only so the AS? line :)
geoffb Perl 6 in my browser, dammit
Khisanth Aankhen``: embedding a parrot in your computer is going to be messy
Aankhen`` Khisanth: I'll leave that to the technical people. ;-)
Khisanth how are they going to deal with the blood and guts? 21:17
geoffb Is iblech still in school?
Aankhen`` Hey, that's THEIR problem. 21:18
pmurias and THE parrots
Aankhen`` YEAH. It's not MY problem. You can TELL from all the CAPS. 21:19
moritz hey, what about porting parrot to System-C and build parrot hardware? *g*
Aankhen`` wanders off to shower.
Khisanth shuts off Aankhens water supply 21:20
spinclad tampers with the water heater 21:22
(cruel we arre, yess, preciouss)
moritz fills the pipes with fluid sodium 21:23
spinclad what, so he can still have his shower, yes? 21:24
(er.. EGENDERUNRECORDED, core dumped) 21:25
moritz spinclad: yes, I sometimes have moments where I want to help others ;-)
Khisanth 97.72 Ā°C shower doesn't sound very helpful! 21:26
spinclad hot enough anyway
Khisanth and I seem to recall sodium combines with water in exciting ways :) 21:27
moritz Khisanth: you recall correctly ;-) 21:28
spinclad yes, you must drain the system thoroughly before this procedure
moritz or you apply enough pressure ;-)
did you know that there was a nuclear reactor in france that was cooled by liquid sodium? 21:29
moritz finds that fascinating - and scary
imagine it starts burning - and you have to put out the flames somehow... ;-)
spinclad dump a load of freon on it. though if it's getting stealing OH- from the water... 21:32
let the water boil off, that'll put it out 21:33
moritz spinclad: that's like "blow oxigen into the fire, then it goes out faster" ;-)
spinclad ? 'let the wood burn away, the fire goes out' 21:34
moritz very funny if you are near a nuclear reactor that needs cooling 21:35
and all the cooling fluid burns off
offby1 har har 21:36
spinclad i'd like to try to keep the sodium inside the pipes, somehow; coolant system leaks are a problem whatever their medium 21:39
in the heat exchangers these are two fluids one very much wants to keep separate 21:42
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dduncan if you had the proper kind of nuclear reactor, then the reaction would stop if the coolant went away, because the coolent is necessary for the reaction to take place at all ... I think those are called candu reactors or something 21:45
moritz dduncan: I though the candu ones are using graphein, but don't shut down automatically... 21:46
dduncan: while HT reactors and boiling waters shut down by themselves
spinclad where the coolant moderates the neutrons to reaction energy
moritz but the french one was a fast breeder
dduncan I just know that more modern or proper reactors won't overheat since the water going away would stop the reaction 21:47
moritz dduncan: that's certainly true
TimToady lichtkind: yes, they were my officemates. (Mark is also my brother-in-law, and happens to be in the room with me now.) 21:50
lichtkind TimToady: thanks i did know that he is you brother in law, i wrote it in the article, i read nearly every interview available :) 21:53
TimToady: i just bother you to make this articel exellent :) 21:55
22:56 lichtkind_ joined 22:57 miyagawa joined 22:59 lichtkind_ is now known as lichtkind 23:01 sili is now known as jagerwoman 23:02 theorbtwo joined 23:05 SubStack joined 23:06 jagerwoman is now known as sili
zgh sili: subtle 23:35
sili o rly 23:45
zgh: subtle is my middle name 23:47
zgh oh i thought it was martha. I'll need to rewrite your birthday card 23:48
sili zgh: whhhaaazzuzuupp? 23:49
zgh sili: geni is up. just another way to bide my time until I can get someone to let me use perl6 in production 23:50
sili nice.
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