Think twice before running "make install" for Pugs | moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/ | pugscode.org | sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4)) | "Perl 6 Today" video from YAPC::Asia: xrl.us/v6op
Set by agentzh on 6 May 2007.
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ludan hola 00:12
moritz hola, que tal?
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rhr in token block in Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm, what is the normal/endline/endlist stuff about? 01:13
I'm looking for odd places unspace is allowed, and I don't get what the "normal" thing is for 01:14
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rhr fun fact: you can put pod inside pod directives via unspace (!?!) 01:22
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obra seen Juerd 01:32
Who can create accounts on feather?
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agentzh moritz++ # nick searching 02:04
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agentzh are <alpha> and <ident> built-in subrules in standard perl 6? 02:09
also, will /$<a> := (<b>)/ set $/<a><b> ? 02:10
it's different from /$<a> := <b>/, right? 02:11
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svnbot6 r16239 | rhr++ | Merge long dot tests, add new unspace tests 02:27
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mdiep seen audreyt 03:08
avar @seen audreyt
lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
mdiep thanks, avar. 03:09
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Aankhen`` ?eval only sub foo () { 1 }; foo() 05:50
05:50 evalbot_r16235 is now known as evalbot_r16239
evalbot_r16239 Error: ␤Unexpected "foo"␤expecting "=", subroutine parameters, trait or block 05:50
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Aankhen`` ?eval multi sub foo (Str $bar) | (Num $bar) { $bar.say }; foo("1") 05:52
evalbot_r16239 Error: ␤Unexpected "|"␤expecting bare trait, trait or block
Aankhen`` Bah.
S13 talks about defining methods that allow a class to respond as if it were a routine, array or hash, e.g. method postcircumfix:<( )> (|$capture) {...} 05:54
And... er... nevermind.
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Aankhen`` slaps his forehead. 05:54
offby1 I'm surprised that my "pugs" process has three threads. I didn't explicitly create threads ... is that new behavior, or has it always done that? 05:56
"Heather has two threads"
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obvio171 @seen cmarcelo 06:13
lambdabot I saw cmarcelo leaving #perl6 4d 4h 37s ago, and .
japhb "And what? And nothing." 06:14
obvio171 "and period", it said :P
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dduncan question: why would CPAN say that v6-0.018 is an unauthorized release? 06:41
eg, see: search.cpan.org/dist/v6/ 06:42
lambdabot Title: Fl&#225;vio Soibelmann Glock / v6 - search.cpan.org
dduncan also, the changelog doesn't say what changed since 17
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zamolxes dduncan: search.cpan.org is currently borked afaics 06:51
dduncan okay 06:52
but about the changelog ...
was 17->18 just a name change?
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dduncan taking the -alpha off, that is 06:54
if so, then that's the same thing I would do if renaming, make them identical otherwise, which would aid diffs
but the changelog would still say that's what I was doing
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diakopter zamolxes: are you sure search.cpan.org is borked? I routinely have problems with that domain's DNS servers (probably 1/3 attempts); are you sure that wasn't your problem? 07:06
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dduncan I interpreted the borked comment as about something that resulted in the "unauthorized" comment 07:26
I've never seen that comment before today ... the only red text was to indicate a developer release 07:27
Aankhen`` The "unauthorized" thing was in response to HOOO's modules (including such fine distributions as `perl` and `package`), AIUI. 07:28
dduncan so I assume it appears for anyone who uploads a package that doesn't have the package name registered to them (first uploader by default) 07:29
sounds like a good idea, actually 07:30
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korpenkra hi all! is there any perl5 vs. perl6 CPU/Mem performance tests around that one could try to get an idea about the improvements brought by for instance static types vs dynamic types? 08:46
moritz korpenkra: I think none of the p6 implementations support static types yet
korpenkra: and the p6 implementations still perform far worse than p5 because they are not yet in the optimization stage 08:47
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korpenkra moritz: aha. too bad. I am doing bioinformatics programming and perl5 is really the only language I know well enough to be creative and productive with. bioinformatics and perl go really hand in hand :-) however, speed and mem usage is not always the best. I dunno if I should look into perl6 or some other language... both I guess ;-) 09:03
moritz korpenkra: did you profile your p5 programs?
Tene korpenkra: speed and mem usage should be a lot better than perl5 in the future once there are optomized runtimes. 09:04
moritz korpenkra: p6 is really a nice language, but not complete
Tene the auto-parallelization and such should be very nice for bioinformatics. 09:05
Juerd It should be nice for a vast number of applications 09:08
I think that even (or especially!) in 20 years from now, most code will still be written by non-programmers
Tene Juerd: explain more? I'd be quite interested to hear opinions on this subject. 09:09
Juerd has no idea what to explain 09:10
korpenkra moritz, Juerd: I'm sort of a nightmare programmer to any language developer ;-) I'm not really a computer scientist, but a biologist who wants to do weird and computationally intese stuff with heaps of data. meaning I have little real training in computer science and little time at my hands to expand my programming toolbox. I expect much from the language to make up for my own shortcomings ;-) 09:14
Tene: can you explain auto-parallelization (is it what I think it is) and how it relates to perl6? 09:16
Juerd korpenkra: That's not a nightmare. That's a challenge. 09:20
korpenkra: And such use is considered in Perl 6's design.
Anything that helps a beginning programmer that does weird and intense stuff, potentially (very probably) also helps an experienced guru 09:21
But the experienced guru probably wouldn't have come up with it by themselves, because experience causes one to think in set patterns. 09:22
korpenkra Juerd: thanx, those are very encouraging words 09:24
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gaal moooooooooooose! 09:25
awesome paper on programming and design: worrydream.com/MagicInk/ 09:27
lambdabot Title: Magic Ink: Information Software and the Graphical Interface
korpenkra a bit off-topic, but what the heck. I guess haskell is the functional language of choice around here, but does anyone here have experience with ocaml-perl integration? 09:30
gaal camels aren't quick to be labeled off-topic here :) but I've never heard of such integration, korpenkra. 09:33
integral gaal++ 09:35
korpenkra :-)
rgs there was a thing that enabled to use perl modules from ocaml, developed by the INRIA iirc, but I don't remember its name 09:36
moritz korpenkra: re autoparallelisation: to add two arrays, you do @a >>+<<@b, and it's parallelised if you have multiple processors 09:38
korpenkra: and iirc things like map { # do stuff }, @array are parallel as well 09:39
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korpenkra moritz: very nifty. especially that winged sun-like: @a >>+<< @b . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Winged_...sharpe.png 09:44
moritz korpenkra: it's a bit different... << or « means "array on the left"... 09:45
korpenkra: so @b = @a >>+ 3 adds 3 to all elements of @a ;) 09:46
korpenkra very cool
moritz and [$op] reduces, so [+] is the sum of all elements, [*] the product, [~] the concatenation etc.
yes, I quite like that ;) 09:47
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gaal actually literally '[$op]' doesn't work, you need to spell it out as reduce $op 09:55
you had to go metasyntactic to explain a metaop, that's ok :-)
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moritz it would be cool to allow something like eval("[$op]") @a 10:52
if eval() evaluates to an incomplete syntactic elemet it sucks context from the surronding
at second thought that's a horrible feature ;)
rindolf Hi all. 10:55
Hi moritz 10:56
masak moritz: re map { # do stuff }, @array: what about map calls with side effects? I imagine they are not altogether unheard of
I mean, they do exist in current p5 code
moritz masak: i think that `cat { # do stuff }' is for things with side effects 10:59
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masak moritz: oh. I've completely missed that. 11:09
wolverian huh, no. that's not what cat does. 11:16
at least according to S29 :)
masak ok, then I'll default back to believing that it's map that takes care of cases like map { 'silly example' ~ $i++ } @array 11:19
Juerd moritz: Perl 6 should be smart enough to detect "side effects" by itself, or allow the user to indicate that something "is pure", i.e. has no side effects.
In general, $i++ in a loop is a silly idea better replaced by iterating over multiple lists simultaneously 11:20
b_jonas Juerd: that's what Matz thinks as well, apparently
but I think sometimes $i++ is useful
including $freq{$_}++ 11:21
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Juerd With $freq{$_}++, though, you can just force the block to be considered pure 11:23
It typically doesn't matter in which order the ++'es are done
Unless, of course, you use the value in the map
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fglock re v6.pm, version 0.018 is just a distro name change; 'v6' is now a registered module 11:36
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fglock tries out Groovy as a possible backend 12:53
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gaal re: parallelism and map, incidententally, i'm not sure how that's suppoesd to work viz. laziness 13:27
ugh banana problem
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TimToady map is not automatically parallel unless you prefix it with "hyper", see S02:2775 14:48
it's considered a variant of "eager"
moritz ok 14:49
TimToady since there's really no such thing as "lazy parallel" 14:50
b_jonas I'm affraid of lazy semantics so I hope there'll be a way in perl6 to turn off explicit lazyness off 14:51
like 'no lazy;' or something
all implicit lazyness off I mean
TimToady would probably be "use eager" 14:52
moritz @tell agentzh you could prefix each paragraph of the synopsys on percabal.org/syn/ with an anchor and a link to that anchor, just like the irclogs 14:53
lambdabot Consider it noted.
moritz @tell agentzh if you then provide a mapping from line numbers to paragraph numbers, the irclog could automagically turn things like S02:2775 into a link 14:55
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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TimToady rhr: the case labeled "normal" represents a block that is embedded in an argument list. ordinarily a block terminates the list it's in unless followed immediately by comma or colon 15:10
and a block terminates its current statement if it's the last thing on a line 15:11
either of which can be suppressed with unspace
moritz I think it's a dangerous road to modify semantics based on whitespaces/unspaces in a few case 15:13
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TimToady well, the other way to be consistent is to require semicolon even on statement-ending blocks like "if" 15:16
the inconsistent approach taken by C and its derivatives is not extensible grammatically
rhr TimToady: thanks, that makes sense. I'll add a test for unspace there 15:18
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TimToady the main price from the standpoint of a p5 programmer is that grep and map now require a comma after their block 15:19
rhr gaal: thanks for that link, that's a really cool paper 15:20
moritz which is not such a bad thing IMHO
rhr I like having a comma there
moritz sind map and grep are ordinary methods, a comma is not bad
TimToady indeed, the need for extensibility and dwimmery at the same time has forced a great deal of regularity into the grammar 15:21
and when there are special rules like for right bracket, they're rules that extend to user-defined constructs as well
rhr (extensibility and regularity)++
TimToady likewise for postfix policy 15:22
and that's exactly where we end up needing unspace for the exceptions
but that too is just a generalization of the \ protects the following newline meme 15:23
it's just extended to whitespace rather than special casing newline
moritz btw can I somewho change the precendence of a self defined operator? 15:24
?eval prefix:<!> ($a) { 2*$a} !3**2
evalbot_r16239 Error: ␤Unexpected "{"␤expecting operator, ":" or ","
TimToady see S06:1482 15:25
moritz ok 15:26
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jerrylee hi any good editor for perl6(pugs) syntax? 15:30
moritz vim
rodi :se syn=perl6
yummy.
moritz in util/perl6.vim 15:31
jerrylee do i need to download something?
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moritz cp pugs/util/perl6.vim ~/.vim/syntax/ 15:31
jerrylee thanks moritz
moritz np
TimToady I just made a symlink from /usr/share/vim/vim70/syntax/perl6.vim to pug's copy 15:32
moritz that's even better (although it interferes with the package management)
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TimToady only if some package defines perl6.vim :) 15:32
moritz TimToady: that's not the only case... 15:33
TimToady one could also symlink from your private .vim/syntax
moritz TimToady: if you uninstall vim (or upgrade to the next major version), the directory will not be empty
TimToady I'm sure I have much worse "disk leakage" than leaving a few symlinks and directories behind... 15:34
it's almost time to abandon the current disk an upgrade as a "GC run" 15:35
*and
I don't even delete my email anymore, just watch it accumulate
moritz TimToady: you should read it, not just watch it ;)) 15:36
TimToady not worth the agony of deciding when disk space is growing faster
oh, I read it if the subject or the author looks non-bogus
but even with my spam filters a lot of junk gets past
moritz then it's time to beat up paul graham ;) 15:37
TimToady and switching to a bayesian algorithm would put me back into an active rather than passive deciding mode
maybe I should just break down and forward everything to gmail, but I like mutt... 15:38
moritz I use SpamAssin and a bayesian filter, and use SAs result to train the bayes filter ;)
b_jonas beware with the gmail spam filter, for it produces false positives 15:39
TimToady ...and I like not having false positives :)
b_jonas on the other hand, bayesian works for english only
moritz b_jonas: not true
b_jonas: 90% of my mails are german... 15:40
b_jonas and are you using a bayesian filter?
moritz b_jonas: and still detection for both german and english are good
b_jonas nice
moritz b_jonas: yes, the thunderbird builtin
kolibrie I have mutt set up to display spam messages in gray, rather than white, and set up a keybinding to reclassify as spam when stuff gets through 15:44
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gaal rhr: yeah, and there are some other goodies on his site, too. 15:57
pdcawley b_jonas: Why on earth would bayesian filtering only work for English? 15:58
rgs because bayes was english ! :) 15:59
pdcawley Obviously!
b_jonas pdcawley: most of the spam I get is english, while most of the non-spam mail is hungarian (this is an over-simplification)
so a bayesian filter will learn to distinguish languages, not spam vs non-spam
and will soon throw away too many english mails and keep too many hungarian ones 16:00
pdcawley And you know this by virtue of trying it?
b_jonas no
moritz in my experience that's just a matter of training
the pre-training that is done with thunderbirds junk filter is not optimal for non-english speakers, but after a month it was fine 16:01
pdcawley moritz: Sounds plausible. I wonder if it's possible to zap thunderbird so it's priors aren't preweighted. 16:02
moritz pdcawley: probably you just have to delete a special file in the profile folder 16:04
but I'm not an expert ;)
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[particle] timtoady: 72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:kTLP1i...&gl=us 16:09
lambdabot tinyurl.com/yvefbk
PerlJam www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/05/10/every...erl-6.html 16:10
lambdabot Title: perl.com: Everyday Perl 6
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svnbot6 r16240 | Nelson++ | This is a simple adventure game from the presentation "Adventures in Perl6" (Nordic Perl Workshop 2007, and Oslo.pm). 16:18
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karhu morning 17:55
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offby1 mrgn stnly 18:19
TimToady dr lvngstn, prsm? 18:24
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svnbot6 r16241 | Nelson++ | Added link to the presentation 18:37
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offby1 TimToady: I'd earlier said that I'd continue saying "mrgn stnly" until someone laughed. I guess your post counts :-) 18:59
TimToady har har 19:01
offby1 OK, I can take a hint 19:04
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sapir is there some way right now to use Perl 6 rules from Perl 5 code? 20:16
zakharyas sapir: search.cpan.org/~dconway/Perl6-Rules-0.03/ 20:19
lambdabot Title: Damian Conway / Perl6-Rules-0.03 - search.cpan.org
zakharyas anyone know what Damian is up to these days? He hasn't responded to a patch I sent a few weeks ago
sapir yay thanks
kolibrie sapir: you probably would be better off with Pugs::Compiler::Rule. Perl6::Rules is not up-to-date anymore 20:21
sapir thanks again 20:24
PerlJam zakharyas: Damian was wrestling with some personal issues last I heard. 20:28
zakharyas PerlJam: thanks
integral it's okay, this is open source, one person doesn't have to be a bottleneck 20:30
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zakharyas integral: well unless I fork the module, it is a bottleneck 20:31
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PerlJam zakharyas: you can call your module Perl6::MyRules and use module aliases to get Perl6::Rules out of it. 20:32
moritz that's just a workaround, not a solution ;) 20:33
zakharyas PerlJam: my patch wasn't for rules, but I take the point - it's messy though 20:34
PerlJam Until CPAN supports name-version-author in a real way, it's probably best. 20:35
Actually, it would be awesome if perl5 and CPAN supported the name-version-author scheme as per perl6. That would make the transistion to perl6 easier later.
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TimToady j 20:52
grr
japhb meister 20:56
offby1 eww, jaegermesiter brings back unpleasant memories of college 21:01
moritz my girlfriend comes from the city where Jägermeister is made ;) 21:03
japhb heh 21:04
offby1 Wolfenbüttel
offby1 shows off his google-fu
moritz google++ ;) 21:06
avar fu++
moritz '-'++ ;)
sapir karma google
moritz @karma google 21:07
lambdabot google has a karma of 5
moritz @karma fu
lambdabot fu has a karma of 1
sapir perlbot: karma google 21:08
perlbot Karma for google: -1
moritz @karma moritz 21:11
lambdabot You have a karma of 43
moritz perlbot: karma moritz
perlbot Karma for moritz: 12
moritz perlbot seems to be much more conservative ;)
japhb log or decaying scale perhaps? 21:13
moritz @karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 635
moritz perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 414
moritz japhb: perhaps perlbot doesn't count multiple $nick++es from svnbot6 in successive lines 21:14
japhb hmmm, that would make sense
audreyt++ 21:15
@karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 636
japhb perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 415
japhb audreyt++
perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 416
japhb @karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 637
japhb audreyt++ audreyt++
@karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 639
japhb perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 418
japhb hmmm
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japhb sigh 21:16
audreyt++
er 21:17
Anyone know how to insert an explicit LF using xchat?
moritz why would anyone want to do that? 21:18
japhb To send several lines together without someone else interrupting. Especially in a high-traffic channel, or when multiple threads are overlapping 21:19
moritz you could try to enter lf as ASCII code 21:20
japhb \cJ
moritz fascinating ;) 21:21
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japhb (Undiscoverable hotkeys)-- 21:23
Tene japhb: option+return on X-Chat Aqua, I'm told. 21:26
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Tene so some modifier+Enter on other systems 21:27
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Tene japhb: someone else tells me ctrl+shift+a 21:36
moritz something tells me it's Ctrl+Alt+Del ;) 21:41
Tene 9+F2
japhb karma audreyt 21:46
@karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 640
japhb perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 419
japhb audreyt++ 21:47
@karma audreyt
lambdabot audreyt has a karma of 643
japhb perlbot: karma audreyt
perlbot Karma for audreyt: 422
japhb hmmm
Maybe perlbot just doesn't have the in-channel uptime that lambdabot has?
Oh, and Tene you were right -- ctrl+shift+a 21:48
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japhb Oooh, ctrl+shift == hex input. got it!. Sorta like alt-keypad on windoze 21:49
?eval (1, 2, 3) »+« (4, 5, 6) 21:55
21:55 evalbot_r16239 is now known as evalbot_r16241
evalbot_r16241 (5, 7, 9) 21:55
moritz ?eval 1, 2, 3 »+ 2 21:56
evalbot_r16241 Error: ␤Unexpected "\187+"␤expecting operator
moritz ?eval 1, 2, 3 »+« 2
evalbot_r16241 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
moritz ?eval 1, 2, 3 »+« 2,
evalbot_r16241 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
moritz ?eval 1, 2, 3 »+« (2,)
evalbot_r16241 (1, 2, 5)
moritz ?eval (1, 2, 3) »+« (2,) 21:57
evalbot_r16241 (3, 2, 3)
PerlJam If the bot is running an up-to-date pugs, that looks like an area where someone can make some head-way in bringing pugs closer to the perl6 spec.
moritz it's quite up-to-date 21:58
PerlJam Hmm. something is wrong ... 21:59
pugs> (1, 2, 3) >>+<< 2
(3, 4, 5)
maybe the bot is artificially constraining.
japhb ?eval (1, 2, 3) »+« 2
evalbot_r16241 (3, 4, 5) 22:00
PerlJam (the above was from feather command line pugs r16241 (look familiar?))
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japhb It works in the bot ... we just hand't done that particular combo of punctuation 22:00
PerlJam oh, I see. the syntax was off.
japhb I think it's actually supposed to be:
?eval (1, 2, 3) »+» 2 22:01
evalbot_r16241 Error: ␤Unexpected "\187+\187"␤expecting operator
japhb but that's NIY
moritz japhb: you're right, only unary operators have one » or « sign 22:06
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japhb Hi Limbic_Region 22:07
Limbic_Region salutations japhb
hiding or just trying out a new nick? 22:08
TimToady name collision 22:10
Limbic_Region ah 22:11
japhb Had to come up with a new nick because of, as TimToady said, persistent collisions. After an intense couple minutes, that was the best I could come up with. :-)
Limbic_Region had I known about IRC RFCs when I created my nick, I wouldn't have chosen Limbic_Region 22:14
freenode seems to be pretty leniant though
japhb nick length limit? 22:15
Limbic_Region as well as naming convention
moritz are there conventions in the RFCs?
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Limbic_Region I don't remember exactly what certain things about a name meant but it had to do with ownership 22:15
22:16 mugwump joined
Limbic_Region this isn't right but it was along the lines of if my nick was Limbic_Region then I owned everything under Limbic_ 22:16
but I don't remember exactly what it was
moritz ok 22:18
Limbic_Region so I just searched the IRC logs going back to the 2007-05-01 for audreyt and she has been pretty quiet, anyone know if she is ok?
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japhb Limbic_Region: last I heard, continuing family issues that require her attention 22:23
But I have no more detail than that
gnuvince_ Limbic_Region: I don't know. She mentionned on her blog that she needed to leave YAPC::Asia in a hurry because of a family emergency. Plus there was that Hep B case
Limbic_Region gnuvince_ - thanks. I have more current information than that. It appears that situation that looked like it was mostly resolved and returning to some semblence of normalcy is still an ongoing issue. 22:25
Limbic_Region tries to remember to keep her in his prayers 22:26
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