Think twice before running "make install" for Pugs | moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/ | pugscode.org | sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4)) | "Perl 6 Today" video from YAPC::Asia: xrl.us/v6op
Set by agentzh on 6 May 2007.
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Aankhen`` Yay, done with Perl6::Perldoc::To::Html 02:01
TheDamian++
mncharity :)
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PerlJam Now all we need are some Perl 6 implementations 02:10
:-)
Tene Aankhen``: what's the advantage of using that instead of xhtml?
PerlJam Tene wins the Wrong Question award tonight! :)
Tene PerlJam: should I instead ask "What's the advantage of using the xhtml one instead of that?"? 02:12
PerlJam Tene: No, the output format is largely irrelevant as long as it's something useful. 02:13
Tene PerlJam: I was asking for the situations where html is more useful than xhtml
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Aankhen`` Heh. 02:23
Tene: Actually, you do win the Wrong Question Award, but not for the reasons PerlJam thinks. ;-) 02:24
The question is "what's the advantage of using XHTML instead of HTML?".
Tene Well that was the other question I proposed. ;)
Aankhen`` Whoops, sorry, I missed that. 02:25
(I've been missing a lot of things lately. No, not my sanity; that's just normal.)
In a nutshell, at present, there are no advantages to using XHTML. 02:26
Tene Are there disadvantages?
Aankhen`` Yup.
Stricter = more effort required to create XHTML documents, higher likelihood of broken documents due to small mistakesā€¦ greater verbosity in general for no good reason. 02:27
And the best part is that unless you're sending the XHTML as application/xhtml+xml (which you're probably not, using text/html instead), it's treated as tag soup anyway by the browser.
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zperl hi 02:34
can anyone tell me how to get an account on feather dev server?
PerlJam zperl: ask Juerd. There's even a perlmonks node that tells you how too 02:35
zperl perljam: thx 02:37
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buu ' 03:13
Tene `
Aankhen`` ā€™
Tene Ā“
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Aankhen`` ā€¶ 03:25
Tene ĀØ 03:26
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Aankhen`` ā€“ 03:34
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gaal ingy: moose. no matter, I thought I had a golf suggestion to the tiny crc checker but it was wrong 04:11
ingy: re: object keys in hashes (in your blog post), Java has 'em, but arguably at the library level so it doesn't count. Perl 6 has 'em too but not by default. 04:12
perlDreamer @tell agentzh I think that the closure work is done in t/TASKS, but I'd like to double check with you since you added it. What specific things were you thinking of? 04:13
lambdabot Consider it noted.
TimToady should be as easy as declaring "my %hash{Object}" though 04:35
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Aankhen`` Oh, for a moment I thought "not by default" meant you had to use a pragma or module to get that. 04:38
TimToady that's why I said what I said. :) 04:39
Aankhen`` I am forever in your debt for alleviating my fears. ;-)
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cybercobra so...roles look awesome 04:54
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navigator ######333333333 05:23
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Aankhen`` From S05ā€¦ token rule_assertion:<*> { ... } # define your own <*stuff> 05:49
What does `<*stuff>` mean? 05:50
TimToady hmm, well, it's regex_assertion:sym<*> in STD, so the syn is a bit out of date there 06:07
but the point is to give extensible rules based on the first character within a /<...>/
but basically the regex can do anything it likes with "stuff" 06:08
so <+...> treats ... as a set of character classes 06:09
but <!...> treats ... as a nested negated assertion 06:10
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Aankhen`` TimToady: Oh, I see. Thanks. 06:36
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svnbot6 r16306 | tene++ | Fix adventure.pl to compile and run. 08:18
r16306 | tene++ | Add a couple of commands.
r16307 | tene++ | Stringify directions in adventure.pl correctly. 08:24
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dduncan I liked that part about the translators adding lots of words to the slides that the presenter doesn't understand 09:04
hm, I forgot my irc client was scrolled back ... the reply is for something posted 12 hours ago 09:05
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zzzz hi 11:04
how do i port a cpan package from p5 to p6?
moritz hi 11:05
zzzz moritz: hi
moritz zzzz: you learn perl 6 and then rewrite them ;)
lunch, bbiab& 11:06
avar One issue I ran into when I tried to do that is that there's nothing like M::I
zzzz moritz: lol
avar I hacked something together which used the pugs build stuff, but that didn't test things properly so I ended up making my own makefile
zzzz is there a naming convention for ported p5->p6 packages? 11:07
diakopter zzzz: I dunno. how about 6::Previous::Name 11:13
or v6::Previous::Name 11:14
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zzzz diakopter: thx 11:23
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IllvilJa Has Parroy 0.4.11 been released? 11:47
s/Parroy/Parrot/
Sorry, too much distraction around here... I wondered if parrot 0.4.12 had been released. 11:48
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moritz IllvilJa: yes, it has 11:53
"
On behalf of the Parrot team, I'm proud to announce Parrot 0.4.12 "Of the
Caribbean." Parrot (parrotcode.org/) is a virtual machine aimed at
lambdabot Title: Parrot Virtual Machine - parrotcode
moritz running all dynamic languages."
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lichtkind moritz: i hope i dont disturb you yesterday 12:31
moritz lichtkind: no, you didn't ;) 12:33
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lichtkind moritz: good :) 12:40
IllvilJa moritz: Thanks a bunch for the reply. Sorry for geting back this late, but I got distracted. 12:42
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IllvilJa morits and Co: when I visit parrotcode.org, I get to a page that stage that Parrot 0.4.11 "Tax Bird" has been released. Sort of puzzling. Am I the only one seeing that? 12:49
lambdabot Title: Parrot Virtual Machine - parrotcode
moritz IllvilJa: it seems it's not updated... I'll go to #parrot and tell them 12:50
IllvilJa Where is #parrot... is it on freenode or some other IRC service?
moritz IllvilJa: on irc.perl.org
IllvilJa Aha. Thx. When I joined #parrot here I was the only attendant ;-). 12:51
moritz ok ;)
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gaal ot, but does anyone remember if there's a perlvar that means ($1, $2, $3 .. ${lastmatch})? 13:29
Perl 5
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mauke no, but you can use @-, @+ and substr 13:33
gaal okay, thanks!
gaal wants ($moose, $elk) = first { /moose: (.*), elk: (.*)/ } @applicants 13:34
mauke heh, that's a foldr 13:35
($moose, $elk) = map /moose: (.*), elk: (.*)/, @applicants; 13:36
that should work for horrible reasons
gaal yeah 13:38
but I'd rather not spell it that way :)
mauke you could write this in a sane way if perl had lazy lists 13:39
moritz well, perl has lazy lists 13:40
perl 6, that is ;)
lichtkind moritz the maon obstacle of all that tuts is to sort all knoledge in a sane way
moritz lichtkind: yes 13:42
mauke let ([moose, elk] : _) = map (=~ "moose: (.*), elk: (.*)") applicants
moritz what's that? caml? haskell?
mauke haskell 13:43
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mauke OCaml would look like this: let ([moose, elk] :: _) = map (fun x -> x =~ "moose: (.*), elk: (.*)") applicants 13:44
and you couldn't write =~
moritz ok ;)
mauke: how do ocaml and haskell compare? which is easier to learn, which is more powerfull? or is it hard to say? 13:46
mauke I like Haskell better 13:47
OCaml is probably easier to learn
moritz is wanted to learn ocaml, but I found the type declaration syntax very ugly ;) 13:48
Juerd There was an ocaml user here a while ago, who said that because he knew ocaml, haskell wasn't hard to learn.
moritz s/is/I/
mauke OCaml is more like a traditional imperative language; it's also parsed top-down, like C
yeah, you're not supposed to use type declarations in OCaml
Juerd moritz: You're a Perl guy, right? How can ugliness scare you :)
mauke and yes, it is ugly in general
OCaml also lacks type classes and other cool Haskell stuff
by using OCaml you'll learn about strong typing, type inference, pattern matching/destructuring, thinking in recursion 13:50
moritz Juerd: there are different kinds of uglyness ;) 13:51
perhaps some time later I'll try again 13:52
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gaal a lot of the basic functional stuff is easy for O'Caml, uh lambdamoose to see in Haskell 14:11
type inference, polymorphism, folds and other morphisms
hmm, didn't stevan say he knew some O'Caml? 14:12
moritz I learned a bit scheme in school, so recursion is not entirely new for me 14:13
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svnbot6 r16308 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] Add a rough draft of a parser for units(1) units.dat 15:41
r16308 | rhr++ | May eventually be useful for implementing units in Perl 6
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nothingmuch i need some gettext advice 16:15
i have .pot files
for pootle to work with
they are just the english .pos really
i want to strip the msgstrs
i don't see it as an option to msginit
gaal: got an idea? 16:16
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jerrylee hi pugs can compile to standalone executable ? 16:23
veritos jerrylee: not directly, it can somewhat compile to haskell code which you can compile.
jerrylee veritos: so it's compile to .hs, then we compile? 16:24
veritos jerrylee: yeah basically
jerrylee thanks veritos :)
veritos i dunno how to do that tho
by default it just runs it like perl 5 does
except slower! 16:25
jerrylee pugs -Cbackend file.pl 16:26
but what backend is available?
veritos try haskell, hs, perl5, c, etc. 16:27
jerrylee ok
veritos: not working .. 16:28
veritos jerrylee: i was just giving suggestions. i dunno for sure. 16:29
jerrylee veritos: ok ;)
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nothingmuch msgfilter 16:33
gaal nothingmuch: moose. is that the answer to your question? 16:34
it's been a while since i did PO stuff
nothingmuch yes
gaal cool
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nothingmuch new laptop faaaaast 16:36
mmm
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zperl ?eval say "Hi people" 16:40
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evalbot_r16308 OUTPUT[Hi peopleā¤] Bool::True 16:40
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TimToady ?eval say "Hi bots, too" 16:49
evalbot_r16308 OUTPUT[Hi bots, tooā¤] Bool::True
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trippeh So what happens if I do ?eval open something? :-) 17:00
To the evalbot, that is.
[particle2 evalbot won't let you run unsafe ops 17:01
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trippeh Aww, good :) 17:01
[particle] ?eval fork while fork 17:02
evalbot_r16308 Error: Unsafe function 'fork' called under safe mode
gnuvince How does evalbot recognize something as unsafe? Are those subs tagged or just a list of "do not run!" subs?
[particle] i think there's a list... i forget the details, but it shouldn't be hard to find 17:04
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[particle] eg. docs/Pugs/Doc/Run.pod 17:05
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Aankhen`` Aren't they marked as unsafe in the Prelude? 17:05
[particle] doesn't know 17:06
gnuvince is grepping around
Aankhen`` gnuvince: Search for "is unsafe".
I'm pretty sure I saw them marked as such in the Prelude.
Or maybe those were other functions in the Prelude, and I saw `open` &c. in S29. Hmm. 17:07
gnuvince Aankhen``++ 17:09
Aankhen`` Glad to be of service. :-)
rhandom Is there a synopsis that talks about Safe Mode/Privilege dropping/Memory Limiting/Process Limiting/CPU Limiting ? 17:18
[particle] not afaik 17:19
gnuvince rhandom: without looking or being sure, maybe the subroutine one?
nope...
rhandom i don't remember seeing it in that one
I don't remember seeing anything mentioned about these yet. I'm hoping for wonderful abilities in Perl 6. 17:20
gnuvince rhandom: my biggest hope is great multi-programming support
rhandom multi-programming ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Searc...&go=Go 17:21
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ywwc4b
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Aankhen`` What are the other cases similar to `s[pattern] = "replacement"` where the RHS is treated as if it has an implicit closure around it? 18:13
Are there any practical examples of @arr ~~ /pat/? 18:19
Gothmog_ It's like grep /pat/, @arr in p5, I think. 18:25
moritz Gothmog_: not exactly
if the pattern looks like m/foo$$^^bar/ it matches two successive elements 18:26
one ending in foo, the next one starting in bar
(iirc)
you can't do that with grep
Gothmog_ Hm, lots of magic. 18:28
Smart Match table in S03 says " Array Regex array "boolean grep" .any.match(X)"
moritz Gothmog_: read S05, "Matching against non-strings" 18:31
the seperator is <,>, not $$^^
[particle] how about un-hyphenating text? 18:32
/-^^<alpha>/ 18:33
moritz good idea
or @lines =~ /-<,>/ 18:34
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TimToady Aankhen``: all of the other pseudoassignment happens on declarations currently, so 'has $.foo = bar()' is closurely on the right, for instance 19:07
it looks like S03 and S05 are contradictory on the subject of Array ~~ Regex. I believe S03 is correct, and you have to use Array.cat ~~ Regex to match the array as a pseudostring 19:10
PerlJam still half-expects there to be a .dog method 19:11
;)
moritz PerlJam: you can still define one ;) 19:12
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wolverian wow, it's hard to sell the distributed scm approach to a group of artists 19:20
TimToady Sacred Cow Maneuver? 19:27
SamB source control machine
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wolverian sacred cow manure? :) 19:29
ludan hoi 19:30
TimToady polloi 19:33
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TimToady scanning chunneling microscope? 19:35
obra wolverian: what medium do they work in? 19:36
(unless it's code, SCM isn't what they need ;)
wolverian right. binary files.
TimToady Software Chaotic Memory 19:37
moritz it's no fun to watch binary diffs ;)
obra merging binaries hurts a lot. though I suppose you could merge and diff bitmapped images ;)
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wolverian obra, so what do they need? 19:40
obra they may well need version control. What are they actaully doing? 19:41
wolverian games
they're using perforce now
the locking is really important :)
obra Distributed + locking is hard ;) 19:45
wolverian quite
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meppl good night 19:54
TimToady n8
meppl ;) 19:57
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Aankhen`` Okay, more questions, if anyone has the time and the answers... multi token sigil:sym<$> { <sym> } # how does the name for this rule break down? (from S05) 20:06
Actually, that's all I've got for now. That, and "why am I not a billionaire yet?".
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offby1 ``Because the Universe hates youā„¢'' 20:11
Aankhen`` u lie 20:13
i have lots of frnds on teh internets more than u i bet
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DrSlump hello 20:13
Aankhen`` Hiya.
DrSlump hi Aankhen 20:14
Aankhen`` What's shakin'? 20:15
?eval [<=] (1, 5, 5, 8) 20:16
evalbot_r16308 Bool::True
Aankhen`` ?eval [<=] (1, 5, 9, 8)
evalbot_r16308 Bool::False
DrSlump I was wondering if there's a planned feature in p6 rules to search for two words in a string, like /fred|joe/ matches lines containing fred or joe or both, /fred&joe/ would match on "joe harry fred"...? 20:18
moritz DrSlump: m/ [.*fred.*] & [.*joe.*] / (but that's a bad hack 20:20
TimToady you'd have to write it /.*fred.* & .*joe.*/
Aankhen`` There *is* an & operator (and an && operator), but it serves a different purpose: "The new & metacharacter separates conjunctive terms. The patterns on either side must match with the same beginning and end point. Note: if you don't want your two terms to end at the same point, then you really want to use a lookahead instead."
DrSlump oh, that's very nice :) 20:21
avar Yes Perl will finally have regular expressions in p6:) 20:22
'c' = character, 'ca' = series of chars, 'c' | 'a' = or of chars 20:25
and * takes care of the rest:)
TimToady Aankhen``: basically, the longname of the rule includes the adverb
we do much the same with module names now, where the identifier is your name for the module, and everything else in the name is advers 20:26
*adverbs
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DrSlump in fact, i was trying to make that in perl 5 and ended up with two regexes (/fred/ and /joe/) and wondered why there wasn't an easy way to do that. I've seen a way to do it with lookahead, but i'm not very good with regular expressions and it seems a little cryptic to me. I'm happy to see there's good stuff in the oven for p6 :-) 20:28
TimToady in p6, / ^ <before .*fred> <before .*joe> / would suffice 20:29
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Aankhen`` Hmm, not sure I follow. I suppose "sigil" is the adverb, "sym" the category (?), but what is the <$> doing in the name? Is that where the multi dispatch comes in? And then the body is just <sym>... 20:31
TimToady :sym<*> is the adverbial pair 20:32
Aankhen`` D'oh.
TimToady as in all the rest of p6
Aankhen`` Ahhh.
Heh.
The light of understanding finally dawns. =)
TimToady and sym => '*' provides the default string for <sym> to match 20:33
DrSlump TimToady: /.*fred.* & .*joe.*/ speaks more to me, what does <before xxx> do?
Aankhen`` Right.
TimToady and the default symbol name for the eventual infix:<*> operator
but by setting $<sym> the rule can use something matched for the eventual symbol name insteaqd 20:34
Aankhen`` So will an adverbial :X<Y> on any rule mean that <X> matches Y within the rule?
(That light of understanding is still in the process of dawning.) 20:35
TimToady I would want to see a use case for generalizing it that far
Aankhen`` Okay, I was just wondering.
TimToady right now we accept :X as a shorthand for :sym<X> 20:36
that might interfere
Aankhen`` That it might.
TimToady DrSlump: <before xxx> check to see if xxx would match right here without advancing the "pointer"; it's p6's syntax for lookahead 20:37
Aankhen`` DrSlump: In "ab" ~~ /. <before b>/, the rule matches "a" because it precedes a "b", without actually including "b" in the match.
DrSlump ah thanks :-) 20:39
svnbot6 r16309 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] Support for unit prefixes, plurals. Random cleanups.
DrSlump i'm reading the Synopsis 5, you're all doing a great work on the next version of perl, let me tell you: thanks and congratulations :-) 20:42
moritz TimToady++ Damian++ glob("*")++ ;-)
DrSlump yeah! ;-) 20:43
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nwc10 if I have the syntax correct: 20:44
state $foo = bar();
what's the type of block that bar() effectively lives in? FIRST?
TimToady used to be called FIRST, is now called START 20:45
equiv to state $foo; START { $foo = bar() } 20:46
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svnbot6 r16310 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] correct prefix thinko 20:46
nwc10 ah right.
TimToady (FIRST now represents the first time through a loop)
nwc10 OK. Right now in blead I see: 20:47
$ ./perl -Ilib -wlE 'sub foo {state $a = shift; print $a} foo(3); foo(4)'
3
4
This isn't good. Particularly the lack of warnings
TimToady yes, that is incorrect by p6's lights
nwc10 state does work - this is correct, I believe: 20:48
$ ./perl -Ilib -wlE 'sub foo {state $a; $a //= shift; print $a} foo(3); foo(4)'
3
TimToady well, we already knew the stately mechanism was implicit in the pad from "my $foo if 0"
but its the START bit that is hard, as you mentioned 20:49
*it's
svnbot6 r16311 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] more prefix thinkos, argh
nwc10 I don't think that it's impossible
it's "just" detecting C<state $foo = bar()>
and turning it into 20:50
state $foo; unless (initialised $foo) {$foo = bar()};
TimToady state $foo; state $foo_INIT; { $foo = bar() unless $foo_INIT++ } or some such
yeah, what you said
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nwc10 where C<initialised $foo> is a special op 20:51
TimToady don't know why I put a {...} around; imminent death of the neural net predicted
nwc10 there is a flag bit on the pad that was already spare for it
you've been programming in too much C and Perl, and so it's always now if (foo) {bar;}
TimToady love to nibble dey tiny bits...
nwc10 gah. I want Perl 6. Because I can't nest foreaches in perl with the same $_ 20:52
actually, it's more map {} that needs it
Tene nwc10: so use it 20:53
nwc10 OK. I think that this is correct behaviour, isn't it, for closures?
$ ./perl -Ilib -wlE 'sub foo {state $a; $a //= shift; return sub {state $b; $b //= shift; "$a,$b"}} my $s1 = foo(3); my $s2 = foo(4); print foreach $s1->(5), $s1->(6), $s2->(7), $s2->(8)'
3,5
3,7
TimToady looks pretty good, modulo the // hack 20:57
nwc10 good.
One of raphael's concerns was what to do when presented with something like:
(my $foo, state $bar) = ...;
my view was, if it's not a compile time error, it's at least a mandatory warning 20:58
TimToady that's not a pseudoassignment, that's a real assignment
so it always reassigns
nwc10 ah right.
OK
I'm confusing it with state ($foo, $bar) = ...; ?
TimToady it's a "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." :)
nwc10 LOL 20:59
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TimToady it's a DIHWIDT :) 21:00
I'll have to drop that one on the PMeys at some point... 21:02
svnbot6 r16312 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] add support for numerical builtins log sin etc. 21:15
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svnbot6 r16313 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] self-recursive rules don't need repitition 21:36
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perlDreamer Should ENTER be called when entering another closure block? 21:45
svnbot6 r16314 | rhr++ | [examples/unitsdat-grammar.pl] more prefix fixes 21:48
TimToady ENTER is called only when the immediately surrounding block is entered. 21:54
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perlDreamer is the main program considered a block? 21:56
TimToady sure, why not? 21:57
perlDreamer I'm reading through some of the existing tests to get a leg up on the language, and it looks like ENTER is not called that way. 21:58
t/closure_traits/ascending_order.t
I'm just having a hard time figuring out what's a bug and what's other things going on.
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diakopter "get a leg up on": Perl6.mount and ( Perl6.ride or Perl6.buck ) 22:01
perlDreamer Perl6.HangOnForDear('life')
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moritz does Perl 6 offer a possibility to mark a variable as non-modifiable until falls out of scope? 23:17
QtPlatypus moritz: Yes 23:20
23:20 Psyche^ joined
moritz QtPlatypus: how? 23:20
23:22 theorbtwo joined
QtPlatypus doesn't know "I expect the easyest way would be to use a little sub" 23:25
Or even a block
Tene moritz: look at 'temp' and 'let' 23:27
moritz Tene: thanks, I will 23:28
23:28 edenc joined
Tene moritz: perhaps 'temp $foo is ro;' ocelot 23:28
23:28 lambdabot joined 23:36 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner, weinigLap joined 23:50 mauke left 23:56 weinigLap_ joined

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