pugscode.org/ | Brave souls needed to fix 'make Install'! Non-brave souls should avoid it for now | sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by mncharity on 4 June 2007.
00:13 obvio171_ joined 00:15 weinigLap joined
Qjimbo hmmm 00:29
I keep getting "Can't read configuration in cgi.conf: No such file or directory" even though cgi.conf is in the same folder 00:30
00:30 silug joined
Qjimbo aah chmod prob 00:32
no wait
it isn't =/ 00:33
[Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] /bin/pwd: 00:35
[Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] cannot open directory `../..'
[Mon Jun 04 20:36:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] : Permission denied
hmm
yeah perl isn't looking in the current path for some reason 00:46
=/
Tene should it be? 00:47
Qjimbo: depends on how you're serving it. what's your apache configuration?
Qjimbo I don't know =p 00:48
I can have a look though, what should I look for?
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Tene Qjimbo: how do you have the cgi set up to be served by apache? 00:50
Qjimbo I have no idea, though I'm not sure it even is set up in a way, I use .htaccess files 00:51
Options +ExecCGI +FollowSymLinks +Includes
AddHandler cgi-script .cgi .pl
DirectoryIndex index.pl
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Tene Qjimbo: add a cgi that just prints the output of the command 'pwd' 00:54
Qjimbo how would I do that? 00:55
(yes I'm a perl noob) 00:56
luqui Qjimbo, are you asking about perl 6? 01:01
Qjimbo wait a sec
OH GOD
it's perl 5 on the server! 01:02
god I'm such an idiot, I'm sorry
luqui 'sok
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Qjimbo now I need to figure out how to emerge perl 6 01:02
luqui Qjimbo, you probably don't want to 01:03
er, maybe you do
I don't know your purpose
Qjimbo well I just want to run perl scripts
luqui perl 5 is still the popular, stable version of perl
Qjimbo with apache and command line
yeah the bot works in it
just not the web stuff for some reaso 01:04
*reason
luqui internal server error?
Qjimbo nah just it not being passed the current path from apache or something
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dduncan well, it looks like my namespace registration for CPAN was approved 10 minutes ago ... 01:33
so QDRDBMS is now known as Muldis::DB
hopefully there won't be any issues with that, and it'll be the long term name
luqui I haven't registered a namespace in a long time 01:34
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pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.66 pasted "autosmoke build failure on feather" (238 lines, 13.9K) at sial.org/pbot/25365 01:37
agentzh do i have to do a realclean there?
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thoughtpolice weee 02:20
monaddo({my $a = 1},{ .say }) == 1
once my perl 6 monad implementation is done, i will be able to boast about it because apparently a lot of people don't like monads. :( 02:21
luqui thoughtpolice, woah, interesting syntax 02:23
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luqui am I correct in assuming that you may say monaddo({ my $a = 1 }, { $a.say }) 02:23
?
thoughtpolice no
just .say works
luqui okay good
thoughtpolice right now actually, 02:24
$a.say wouldn't work anyway
luqui so how do you handle monadic binding
thoughtpolice it's a very basic implementation
luqui i.e. do { a <- something; b <- somethingelse; return (a + b) }
thoughtpolice i'm working on trying to reduce from haskell monad's as directly as possible
answer: i'm working on it.
luqui hm 02:25
okay. you might find some solace using continuations, actually
thoughtpolice perhaps.
luqui did I just say that ? :-)
thoughtpolice the monaddo I had above is more simple than you'd think
luqui monads are very simple
jql inserts the "and now you have two problems" quote here
luqui I once worked on a monad module for perl5 02:26
thoughtpolice it's only like
four lines
sub monaddo(&b,*@a) { my $x = b(); $x = $_($x) for @a; } 02:27
so you might say there's a bit of work to be done :)
but hopefully I can come up with something workable
luqui yeah, that's, um, the identity monad? 02:28
good luck anyway
I couldn't find a good way to do it in p5 without resorting to source filters
thoughtpolice well it's for something i'm writing. my hope is basically to implement 'maybe' by one means or another;
luqui maybe the function or maybe the monad? 02:29
thoughtpolice monad
actually to be precise it's a monad I made up; Click
luqui yeah, that's a useful one
make sure you get the list monad, too
I use that all the time; perhaps it is my favorite
thoughtpolice but Click is the exact same as Maybe.
I only introduced it that way for simplicity
and gave a basic implementation of what it might look like/what happens in usage. 02:30
but Maybe is a good monad. it's probably the simplest monad that does something fairly usefeul
well except maybe list but :p
luqui :-)
thoughtpolice but granted variable binding is the main thing that's the issue. 02:31
especially for a direct reduction from haskell monads to a perl 6 monad lib.
interestingly this thing I'm writing (blog post) helped me with monads more as well; particularly their actual implementation and how to create your own. 02:33
so now I can implement my own to get cred :p
luqui heh 02:34
thoughtpolice but i don't quite know why a lot of people eschew them so horribly; they're really a pretty useful abstraction. 02:35
luqui they just take a long time to get used to
thoughtpolice i suppose. 02:37
imo the difficulty of groking them is somewhat worked up to a degree. 02:38
luqui monads as containers is a nice tool 02:39
PerlJam thoughtpolice: explain monads in one sentence or less ;-)
luqui or take paul graham's approach: explain monads using only one-syllable words 02:40
but I can't even ask the question doing that, so nevermind
thoughtpolice PerlJam: a monad is an abstraction that lets you create 'sequential' evaluation. 02:41
more specifically they let you do this in a way where you can make the rules with your own monads.
PerlJam thoughtpolice: and you wonder why people think of them as difficult. 02:43
thoughtpolice i do; but I suppose in part that's due to the way they're explained generally. 02:44
PerlJam perhaps
luqui like being able to make the rules for sequential evaluation... ;-)
thoughtpolice not enough code and a little to many words would be a good way to put it.
PerlJam I think people have trouble with monads for the same reason people have trouble with recursion. They aren't exposed to it early enough so it seems like something out of left field when it actually is introduced 02:45
luqui and it's tough to think about if you haven't been exposed to it before 02:46
I was lucky enough to have fully groked closures when I was introduced to monads
PerlJam If lisp or scheme is you first language, you may have a better grasp of monads than your average procedural programmer IMHO
not that they are related, just that your brain is better prepared. 02:47
thoughtpolice if you ask me i think people need to be shown more example than more 'theory' (which is the approach many tutorials on monads take)
example: hpaste.org/171
Aankhen`` I'm learning Lisp and I understand closures well enough, but monads escape my comprehension. :-(
thoughtpolice that's an implementation of a useful monad; providing you can understand what do-notation does and you know the bind operator, most of it should become clear 02:48
fairly immediately.
luqui knowing the bind operator is the hardest part, but after seeing the output it should be clear what's going
on
what's the example you're using 02:49
I don't understand the clicked idea
PerlJam Aankhen``: monads are just more abstract than you're used to :)
Aankhen`` Ah.
Well, I'm reading Wikipedia to try understanding them once again.
thoughtpolice the idea is just that your expressions either 'click' or they're 'silent'
Aankhen`` (What is this, the fifth time? :-P)
thoughtpolice a quick look reveals,
that the Click monad is the exact same monad as Maybe
PerlJam thoughtpolice: but the words are all different ;) 02:50
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thoughtpolice :( 02:50
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luqui thoughtpolice, yeah, I guess... it's not obvious to me though 02:50
thoughtpolice luqui: well the example comes from the article i'm writing 02:51
luqui I'd probably get it with more context
thoughtpolice and it's for that article specifically; I explained it there
which would probably explain what the deal is.
PerlJam thoughtpolice: where's the article?
thoughtpolice PerlJam: I'm still working on it
PerlJam so? let us see! :) 02:52
thoughtpolice it's about applying the principles of functional programming to Perl 6. the monad's section I prefixed with 'somewhat tangential' since monads aren't necessarily directly related to functional programming, but they're an interesting enough topic to merit the extra writing.
Aankhen`` Nope, fifth time isn't the charm. *goes back to Lisp*
thoughtpolice PerlJam: actually if you gimme a moment I'll publish it; I can continue with the implementation of a monad like 'click' in perl 6 in a later interlude. plus blogger's 'compose' mode is really, really starting to aggrivate me to the point I don't want to have to fix my code every time I want to keep adding on 02:54
PerlJam Aankhen``: don't worry about it. I know I haven't fully grokked monads either. Specific instances of a monad "click" :) for me, but the generality of it tends to elude my complete understand.
(i.e., I probably couldn't create a monad to save my life, but I can recognize and use them)
luqui I can use any monad comfortably now, but I still have to pound my head against the wall a bit to write one
I was faced with the challenge of explaining monads to my roommate a few weeks back 02:55
Aankhen`` PerlJam: LOL. Okay, thanks for the encouragment! 02:56
luqui I ended up going with that you're building a data structure that represents your code
PerlJam thoughtpolice: if your article doesn't already do so, could you provide a practical application for monads in perl 6 at some point?
luqui list monad!
great for combinatorical stuff
PerlJam thoughtpolice: get together with mjd and you can write HOP6 or something ;)
Aankhen`` will apply partial evaluation to thoughtpolice's article in hopes of being able to at least understand them. ;-) 02:57
PerlJam I wonder how many other people share the same mental block that luqui and I seem to have. 02:58
thoughtpolice PerlJam: the fundamental abstraction of a monad -is- the benefit
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thoughtpolice here's the post if anybody wants to take the time to read through it: diveintoperl6.blogspot.com/2007/05/...-with.html 02:59
lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6: Interlude: Functional Programming with a side of Perl 6, tinyurl.com/22ldza
mncharity luqui: I haven't backlogged, but note that I've always liked Arrows much more than Monads. Superset. And feel much less of a kludge.
luqui doesn't grok arrows yet 03:00
I've tried a few times
but I haven't seen any applications
PerlJam thoughtpolice: I think you've just highlighted "the" problem with monads. People (myself included) are always looking for the concrete and monads are almost entirely about the abstract. 03:01
luqui the list monad is what brought it together for me, really
that's when I started seeing more to them than there is to IO 03:02
thoughtpolice i don't know; I've grown use to abstractions over time.
so I guess the real 'answer' to the monads dilemma
is YMMV
Aankhen`` ?eval <a b c d>.map(&say)
thoughtpolice and personally,
the Writer monad is what 'clinched' the story for me
luqui thoughtpolice, how long have you been using haskell?
Aankhen`` ENOEVALBOT
thoughtpolice luqui: um, it's june,
so
I'd say it's roughly our 3.5 month anniversary or so.
luqui our?
thoughtpolice haskell :) 03:03
luqui ah
Aankhen`` thoughtpolice: One note: You could not directly say 'hiordr(say,"asdf")' # s/say/&say/ and it works. 03:04
thoughtpolice Aankhen``: ah. thanks. :)
luqui thoughtpolice, used the reader monad?
Aankhen`` Wait, I'm about 13 revisions behind, so that might have changed.
thoughtpolice luqui: a little bit.
Aankhen`` Er, more like 17.
thoughtpolice actually I have an article I wrote over using the writer monad
after it really brought things together for me 03:05
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thoughtpolice I suppose you may more accurately see it as 03:05
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thoughtpolice 'a small field guide to haskell development' 03:05
PerlJam thoughtpolice: btw, I don't think Click is *exactly* the same as Maybe. ISTRT Maybe handles fail and Click does not.
Aankhen`` @r.push($v) unless $x; # shouldn't that be *if* $x?
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
luqui haha
thoughtpolice PerlJam: well not the exact same, but their usage pretty much is. 03:06
Aankhen``: no, I tried it.
luqui the algebra is the same
Aankhen`` AIUI, what you have will only push if the tester function returns true.
Er, false.
thoughtpolice for some reason it returned the inverse.
Aankhen`` Hmm, weird.
thoughtpolice yeah i thought so too
PerlJam no, your block is just wrong 03:07
$_ % 2 == 0 when they're even
(which is a false value)
thoughtpolice btw if anybody is interested in that writer monad article: austin.youareinferior.net/?q=node/22. it's probably *not* the best intro to using monads in general, but it shows how to use writer and I explained it best I could.
lambdabot Title: On Haskell: Writing a black-list filter using the Writer Monad | totally insane 03:08
thoughtpolice PerlJam: ah, thanks. I overlooked that.
i'll change it in just a sec
PerlJam btw, thoughtpolice++ If I keep reading your articles, I may get back into Haskell again :)
thoughtpolice :)
couple more ++'s and my karma will probably be up to a whopping 15 :p 03:09
Tene thoughtpolice++
Aankhen`` thoughtpolice++
thoughtpolice haha
Tene nine hundred more ++'s and your karma will probably be up to a whopping 915 03:10
PerlJam heh
thoughtpolice PerlJam: changed.
thanks btw
PerlJam++
i need a script that'll just automatically give people karma once they give me an annotation to my posts 03:11
PerlJam a couple of more ++ and my karma will be a whopping ... somethingerother.
:-)
thoughtpolice you guys can quote me on that later in life :)
Aankhen`` Heh. 03:12
TimToady FP : relativity :: OO : quantum mechanics 03:17
thoughtpolice btw PerlJam, I hope to get you back into haskell. that is in reality my deep, dark purpose.
TimToady or maybe FP : OO :: relativity : qm
thoughtpolice oh, i didn't admit that though. everybody /cycle
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PerlJam thoughtpolice: I don't know if I'll have time for it much. Back in the early days of pugs, I wrote a little code here and there (I think I fleshed out the first while loop or an unless conditional or something) but I haven't had the energy to keep at it. 03:20
luqui I think that's a law of analogies: a : b :: c : d <=> a : c :: b : d
thoughtpolice PerlJam: fun stuff.
luqui though I've written some fairly OOish things in haskell with the help of ghc's existential types
it's not... natural though 03:21
but with a little syntax sugar it could be
TimToady yes, I was thinking about the best way to present it...
PerlJam But, I have to admit that of all the function languages I have encounted, Haskell is the most fun.
thoughtpolice PerlJam: most def.
PerlJam s/function/functional/
thoughtpolice speaking of OO, anybody ever tried O'Haskell?
luqui perl 6 ain't bad, when you're talking to it's functional face
TimToady perl 6 embraces both determinism and non-determinism :) 03:22
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TimToady the main problem with monads is that they're too hard to lift... 03:24
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PerlJam TimToady: You've gotten punnier in your old age. (or perhaps its just that I didn't know how punny you were in your younger days) 03:25
TimToady maybe I'm just not as subtle anymore... 03:26
PerlJam Could be that too.
luqui I remember him commenting on a talk at my first YAPC
PerlJam Or maybe you *are* subtle and I'm just perceptive ;)
thoughtpolice the world may never know.
luqui he punned after each sentence, uh, Allison? said
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luqui I think his punniness has stayed approximately constant 03:28
PerlJam Einstein had a constant once.
TimToady cc! 03:29
but I actually meant the "too hard to life" seriously
*lift
monads can be seen as strange objects that aren't allowed to ever enter the same state twice 03:30
and in OO you can encapsulate such behavior, but
as soon as two objects start talking to each other
the indeterminacy sneaks back in unless you're careful.
monads are about preventing that...
luqui hmm, interesting take 03:31
TimToady whether you want to or not...
I'm an idiot savant--I meta-understand monads without understanding monads... :)
thoughtpolice an award is needed. :) 03:33
TimToady the Black Moose awards are coming up...
PerlJam The Black Camel Award? ;>
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thoughtpolice TimToady: hopefully one day i'll get to the 'meta' level. if I ever get to meta-meta, I'll send you a postcard from wherever the hell I was when I figured that out. 03:36
luqui hmmm, what's the converse of meta 03:37
thoughtpolice unmeta in newspeak. :) 03:38
TimToady I think it's usually called "can't see the forest for the trees" :)
or maybe that's Never-Meta Land 03:39
.oO(I never meta ... I didn't like)Oo.
luqui sigh 03:40
TimToady so monads enforce computational progress much like entropy does in the universe, except at the QM level, where things seem to be able to go back to the same state... 03:41
luqui what's this?
all QM is reversible
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TimToady agreed 03:41
luqui so it can't go back into the same state...
TimToady and objects can go back to the same state
which it are you referring to that can't go back? 03:42
luqui I don't know that much QM, but I know about the reversibility thing
and if you go back into the same state, you have a cycle
I don't know where I'm going with this 03:43
it'll hit me later tonight :-)
TimToady it is my understanding that a quantum computer can only fluctuate randomly, you can't actually tell it to progress
luqui doesn't know enough to reach that type of understanding 03:44
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luqui I'm at the "a quantum computer is like nothing I've imagined before" level 03:44
TimToady yes, well, I'm sure my analogy will strain itself if I push it too much further. :) 03:45
but I have to talk about The Scripting Language Paradigm this weekend 03:46
thoughtpolice pretty soon, things in the universe are going to loop around to the point where your 'quantum computer' will actually be a bread box.
PerlJam TimToady: According to Geoffrey Moore you're an "Internet founding stalwart" and Tim O'Reilly seems to think that you can "see around corners". So there's something to be said for stalwarts who can see around corners. :-)
thoughtpolice and 1 will == dog
TimToady and am thinking about Program as Text (where there's some tie to string theory there in pun form)
and I'm the 100th most influential person in IT, which means I'm only famous for very nearly not being famous... :) 03:47
Alias_ heh 03:48
thoughtpolice would you rate that as > or < not being famous entirely?
Alias_ Depends if you want fanboys
TimToady being famous has helped me once.
when YAPC was in Munich, and I didn't know where.
luqui heh 03:49
PerlJam someone recognized you and showed you the way?
TimToady I said to Glo, let's just wander up and down the Marianplatz until someone
recognized me.
Alias_ heh
TimToady eventually someone did a double take
and I said "Where are they?
"
only took 1.5 trips across 03:50
I suppose it's also got me some number of speaking engagements, but those don't always feel like a net positive... 03:51
so I have to tell people the history of scripting languages, past, present, and future, in 12-15 minutes on Sunday. :) 03:53
PerlJam TimToady: merlyn has gottne a number of speaking engagements for being infamous. You don't want to be famous like that ;-) 03:54
TimToady I guess I can comfort myself that there's no lack of material...
but I do hate writing talks...
luqui there are probably enough scripting languages just to do a poem listing all of them without context 03:56
thoughtpolice most likely.
SubStack gets right on it.
luqui I wish _I_ hated writing talks and were really good at it 03:57
I find myself in the opposite situation
Alias_ TimToady: I quite enjoyed my first 5 talks or so
TimToady: I'm running out of material now though 03:58
Other than "So here's what I did since last year"
TimToady I have to talk about that too this summer, but not this weekend, fortunately
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obra TimToady: the Scripting Languages talk is 15 minutes? 04:00
That's crazy
TimToady it's the final panel
I'm sharing 1:20 with three other of the caliber of Bertrand Meyer 04:01
and they want some time for open QA
Q&A even :)
luqui better make sure you have a test suite for your talk
obra Not so bad. 04:02
TimToady the other "Paradigms" are OO, FP, and high-performance/parallel
it will be difficult not to go in and say "all your paradigms are belong to us"
luqui what about both logic languages!?
Alias_ no logic ? 04:03
TimToady dropped out
Alias_ Or Oz/Multi-paradigmic
TimToady they only support 8 paradigms
my goal is for Perl 6 to be lower on the wikipedia page than Oz. :)
Alias_ is trying to get into Oz a bit... and not getting very far
I couldn't help but appreciate the linguistic detail in Perl 04:04
luqui I found it hard to get into
mostly because of its obsession with emacs
Alias_ Because the stuff in Oz feels like a bad english translation of swedish
TimToady it's always a mistake to think of a programming langage as embedded in an OS
Alias_ oh god, the emacs thing too 04:05
I was sitting there ticking off the check boxes on the "Why your project fails Ashton's Law" list
TimToady Oberon tried the OS thing too
Alias_ What's worse then forcing emacs, the TUTORIAL Hello World examples don't run outside emacs 04:07
It took me until chapter 9 to cobble together something that would compile standalone 04:08
mncharity Alias_: you might find (disclaimer: my) www.vendian.org/oz/wiki/index.cgi?VirtualManual helpful 04:09
though quite possibly bitrotted away at this point
Alias_ Well, anything would help at this point 04:13
thoughtpolice i looked into Oz a little a long time ago 04:15
only thing I've heard about it recently is their goal to get Oz to compile to Erlang 04:16
Alias_ I encountered looking for a contraint solver that had a more readable/usable syntax than Prolog 04:18
TimToady well, now if we can just get Perl 6 compiling down to Oz...
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Alias_ Because Prolog has something of a Lispy-aged feel to it 04:18
I have a fairly classic dinner table problem I need solved
offby1 what wine to serve with fish?
Alias_ :) 04:19
thoughtpolice Perl 6 -> A++ would be a nice one. :)
s:2nd/\+//
Alias_ TimToady: Any logic solving stuff in Perl 6 atm?
I couldn't recall anything... 04:20
TimToady it's just a SMAG
SMOG rather
Alias_ G?
TimToady Grammar
Alias_ ah
If it comes in Perl 6.1 I wouldn't mind tbh
Aankhen`` perlbot: SMOG? 04:27
Bah.
o_O 04:28
Interesting.
TimToady a play on SMOP 04:32
a Small Matter of Programming 04:33
Aankhen`` Ahh, heh. 04:34
Tene Alias_: I can't find anything on google about ashton's law and programming. 04:38
Alias_ Ashton's Law is a recent one :) 04:39
Named after Elaine Ashton
"Just make it fucking easy to install"
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Alias_ It explains why Oz takeup is low, but PHP is everywhere :) 04:41
Tene perhaps we should exploit future IE vulnerabilities so that you can click a link in your browser and have Perl 6 installed on your windows system automagically. 04:42
Alias_ Wouldn't be hard 04:43
Strawberry Perl is close to that easy to install
SubStack It's easiest when it's already installed. 04:44
Alias_ true
Dunno how easy it would be to get a bundling deal with Dell though
SubStack already does through ubuntu and friends 04:45
[particle] Alias_: last time i tried to compile parrot with strawberry perl it was not happy
Alias_ hrm 04:46
[particle]: hrm... I'm not entirely surprised...
[particle] i have a new dual xeon system to play with, and as soon as i get it running, i'll try again
Alias_ We've tweaked most of it just for our own context, it's not really setup as a general environment 04:47
[particle] i'll be building parrot for vista x64
Alias_ But if it works, that would be interesting
[particle] ah, i see
Alias_ Not heavily, we try to keep things relatively untouched
[particle] yes, i'd like to get it working, but it's certainly not critical to parrot
Alias_ But there's a novel make setup
And there's a few little games with libs 04:48
[particle] have you built strawberry as 64bit?
Alias_ I've never built Strawberry full stop :)
I just steer the ship, I avoid that side of it
[particle] well then
Alias_ Perl::Dist::Strawberry though... 04:49
All the code to build it yourself
Making sure everything is replicatable is about as hands on as I get in that area
gaal thoughtpolice: we lifted a few techniques from the oohaskell paper. see MO and Pugs.Class
Alias_ (since I'm not a C coder, I'm not the most appropriate person to be playing with compiling things anyways) 04:50
[particle] okay, if i get back into it, i'll pollute the appropriate list/channel with my rants
Alias_ ok, thanks
DAGOLDEN is who you want I think
I mostly deal with CPAN toolchain stuff
[particle] i've noticed :)
Alias_ some of the others in #win32 also know C though
[particle] cpan: the 'a' is for alias 04:51
Alias_ hahaha :)
Can I quote that :)
[particle] go right ahead
you might have to fight audrey for that letter, though 04:55
Alias_ :) 04:56
nah
I trump Audrey on that one
The person I really need to worry about is Andreas :)
[particle] heh, i suppose you're right :) 04:57
Alias_ hrm
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gaal can't "a" stand for "Andreas and Alias and Audrey and..."? 05:06
Alias_ Doesn't have quite the same ring to it :) 05:07
gaal "ah ah and also"
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gaal @tell Limbic_Region what revision are you running? 05:19
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meppl good morning 08:15
moritz good morning ;)
dduncan good early morning 08:18
and off into the night ...
08:18 dduncan left 08:19 BooK joined
meppl good morning moritz and dduncan 08:19
however
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thoughtpolice hm. i need to find a good web framework. I want to code a new blog, with as little hassle as possible. 08:51
Aankhen`` Tried Catalyst yet? ;-)
thoughtpolice no. it's on a todo list. primarily I want something simple. 08:52
camping looks nice for example.
Tene thoughtpolice: also check out jifty
Aankhen`` Heh.
moritz thoughtpolice: catalyst is not that hard 08:54
thoughtpolice: or you could try maypole (though I didn't undestand that very well) 08:55
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thoughtpolice as long as it's not PHP, it's considerable 08:55
Aankhen`` Heh. 08:56
thoughtpolice i mean, I'd use a blogging system written in it; I just don't want to -write- it.
Aankhen`` Awww.
MT or WordPress are probably your only options.
Or, hey, you could try Vox.
Though I don't know much about it other than a few people who use it. 08:57
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thoughtpolice well mainly I just want to write a small 'microblog' for myself. drupal is taking care of my site quite nicely; but drupal is kind of 'big' for just a simple blog, y'know? 08:57
which is why I was looking at camping 08:59
primarily some place where I can write stuff and put my code up; I mean, that's pretty much what I use my site for now anyway 09:00
if I don't find anything else I'll have to give camping a shot and see if I can get it on my site.
which is probably what will happen once I get my laziness up to actually write something in it. 09:01
lumi thoughtpolice: camping? 09:04
Ah. The secret codeword is "ruby" 09:10
Tene thoughtpolice: looked at blosxom? 09:11
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thoughtpolice Tene: I heard about it a while back 09:14
my friend actually wrote a small blogging system based on it.
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thoughtpolice Tene: now that you mention it, it might simply be worth using 09:17
:) Tene++
Tene thoughtpolice: I express no opinions on blosxom; I'm just peripherally aware of it.
thoughtpolice i'll have to check it out 09:18
but it's simple so that's instant qualification for getting examined in my case. 09:19
Tene nods.
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renormalist Which Haskell books do the Pugs friends suggest? 09:44
moritz "how to rewire your brain - a guide in 12 sections" or something *SCNR* 09:46
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rindolf obvio171: you're bouncing. 10:13
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moritz @tell fglock the html version of the kp6 roadmap had 127 hits in the last 12 hours - people are reading your blog post ;) 10:17
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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moritz wow, I just read that movable types will be open sourced this year... 10:34
finally a decent, mature, non-overkill open source blogging system
at least I couldn't find one before ;)
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fglock moritz: nice :) 11:58
lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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Limbic_Region salutations all 12:40
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renormalist I missed possible haskell book recommendations I asked for a few hours ago, due to a network disconnect. Were there any suggestions? And what was the url of the irc log? 12:41
moritz renormalist: irc.pugscode.org/ gets you there, but iirc there were none :( 12:42
lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-05
Limbic_Region the IRC log can be found from pugscode.org (along with many other useful pugs related links)
additionally, you could google perl6 irc log which turns up another log (which is searchable)
finally, haskell.org has book recommendations as well as free tutorials and what not 12:43
grrr I hate this client
b_jonas the cgi one? 12:44
Limbic_Region well, the combination of IE, corporate proxy & firewall, and CGI:IRC which is hosted on another continent
b_jonas oh, IE too 12:47
I remember when I wrote a kludge for links to be able to follow a specific type of javascript link on a site that opened a page in a window 12:49
(links didn't have javascript at that time)
Limbic_Region wanders off 12:51
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ron__ ?eval say 'running' 13:13
moritz OUTPUT[runningN/L] Bool::True 13:16
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avar www.amazon.com/Beginning-Perl-Novic...1590598334 # Anyone here read this? 13:38
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ysvvda
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renormalist Is there an overview about which of the Pugs authors practice Haskell (and are not Audrey? :-) I'm just wondering whether it is possible to get in contact with the Pugs implementation in any way and don't know where to start. First learn Haskell (how much of it?), then Parsec? Then what? Therefore I'm also interested in what Haskell books the Pugs programmers suggest, not the Haskell.org people. On the other side maybe it's the same subset ... 14:07
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skyde hello 14:07
avar renormalist: there's a list of suggested reading material in the root dir of the repos 14:10
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xinming renormalist: I'd suggest you first checkout the pugs repository, and read 'READTHEM' 'READTOO' first. 14:26
renormalist: I also will tell you. please don't think It's an easy task. Audreyt have an alien brain which we as normal people can hardly catch up... :-) 14:27
renormalist avar, xinming: puh, I never noted the READTHEM list. Exactly what I wanted. But way too much. :-/ I indeed thought it would be easier. Nevermind, I won't match with alien brains. 14:32
xinming Most people always under estimate what the talent people do, I also had the similiar idea as yours, But after I first read the haskell tutorial, I gave up. >_< 14:38
there are still too much things to learn 14:39
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pmurias renormalist: reading all the books in READTHEM is not nessesary :) 15:09
the haskell wikibooks are great if you want a particular topic clearly explained 15:15
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Qjimbo man I hope moritz comes online later =p 16:38
moritz is online now 16:39
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Qjimbo yay moritz! 16:47
I didn'T see you in the user list, I'm retarded 16:48
moritz Qjimbo: does the bot log as it should?
Qjimbo yep that part is fine
however
the irc log viewer script doesn't work as anything other than root
I get these odd errors
[Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] /bin/pwd: 16:49
[Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] cannot open directory `../../..'
[Tue Jun 05 12:51:27 2007] [error] [client 141.241.230.33] : Permission denied
moritz Qjimbo: what are you running? apache2? on which OS? 16:50
Qjimbo yeah apache2 on gentoo
moritz with selinux enabled?
Qjimbo ...don't know 16:51
how can I see?
moritz I don't know, I'm not a gentoo fanboy ;)
Qjimbo lol me neither, I was just recommended it =p 16:52
moritz what happens when you run "perl out.pl" directly frome the command line?
Qjimbo <h1>Software error:</h1> 16:53
<pre>Can't locate File/Slurp.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8/i686-linux /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at out.pl line 12.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at out.pl line 12.
</pre>
<p>
moritz ok, you need to install File::Slurp
Qjimbo ok installing
moritz I should mention that as a depency ;)
Qjimbo well it works now 16:54
though only as root
moritz what are the permissions of ../../.. ? 16:56
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riffraff hi 16:56
moritz hi riffraff ;)
Qjimbo it's /home/
moritz wtf? 16:57
Qjimbo so yeah the apache user wouldn't be able to see it
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Qjimbo before it was complaining about ../.. before I changed the chmod 16:57
moritz aren't you somwhere in /var/www/ ?
Qjimbo nope
moritz you should be!
Qjimbo I don'T have it set up like that
though I can move it there and set up a vhost I guess
moritz so are you in ~/public_html/ or something?
Qjimbo yeah 16:58
moritz you probably need to make /home/ readable+executable to user 'www' or whatever apache runs as
Qjimbo how would I do that? 16:59
moritz the sledge hammer method would be "chmod a+rx /home/" as root
but tell nobody I proposed that ;)
Qjimbo it works! 17:00
moritz YaY
Qjimbo thanks =D 17:01
moritz you're welcome
I'm currently working on making moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs/ a bit more usefull ;) 17:02
lambdabot Title: Index of POD files in pugs repository
moritz anyway, supper &
Qjimbo now I need to get rid of that moose thing
moritz edit the templates ;) 17:03
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Qjimbo yeah just have lol 17:03
moritz but why would anybody want to get rid of a moose? 17:04
gaal: can you possibly understand that? *g*
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Qjimbo moritz: the bot seems to keep reading the bot.conf for channel info, even when I specify different info on the command line 17:28
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moritz @tell Qjimbo if you provide a channel name on the command line you have to escape it ('#channel') because # introduces a comment on the command line 18:18
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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[particle] predicts qjimbo is going to ask how to escape it on the command line :) 18:23
moritz [particle]: that's why I gave the example with single quotes ;)
[particle]: but I don't know if that's enough ;) 18:24
[particle] yeah, i know :)
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moritz anyway, user number three ;) 18:25
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moritz if I want to push a list like [[0, 0], [1, 1], [2, 2]...] onto an array @a, is @a.push @@( ^10 Z ^10); the right way to do it? 20:53
sorry, @a.push: ... 20:55
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TimToady eventually, but @@ isn't implemented 21:05
moritz I know :( 21:08
TimToady at least the parens won't be necessary, since @@ is now a normal listop 21:10
and Z binds tighter
so @a.push: @@ ^10 Z ^10 should work
moritz ok, thanks
TimToady or perhaps more readably:
so @a.push: slice ^10 Z ^10 should work
[particle] so @@ looks like slices of a cinnamon roll, or sushi? 21:11
PerlJam Z binds tighter? 21:12
TimToady list prefix is looser than list infix for several months now
moritz actually it just looks like swearing in comics ;)
PerlJam It's weird for me to think of that in light of the precedences of &&/and ||/or
TimToady @@ is supposed to remind you of aa lava, which comes in chunks
[particle] @@ destroyed my boots last december 21:13
picasaweb.google.com/jerry.gay/Hawa...4029043378 21:14
lambdabot Title: Picasa Web Albums - jerry gay - Hawaii 2006, tinyurl.com/ysggyk
TimToady [particle]: to you @@ should look like an Hā‚‚ molecule... 21:15
[particle] :) 21:16
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polettix is Z an abbreviation for zip? 21:37
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riffraff it is an inifix operator for zip 21:38
a Z b
polettix ah I see
Ā„ would have been better ;) 21:40
moritz I would have liked ZIP 21:41
it's not that much to type, and pretty obvious what it does 21:42
polettix I'm not particularly fond of the single Z letter as well
[particle] Y? ;)
polettix [particle]: why? :D 21:43
japhb polettix: the Yen sign was used for a while, then was replaced 21:47
[particle] since it was the only unicode operator 21:48
iirc
japhb French quotes still exist ...
polettix it was cool anyway
[particle] ah, maybe Z is just the ascii alternative
haven't read that spec in a long time
polettix japhb: but they can be replaced with << and >> IIRC 21:49
[particle] probably four internet years or so
japhb polettix: nodnod
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thoughtpolice good afternoon. 22:01
moritz good evening ;)
thoughtpolice :o s'only 5:00pm where I am.
(CST)
moritz it's 11pm here (GMT+1) 22:05
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Limbic_Region salutatoins all 22:11
dduncan its 3:16pm here 22:13
polettix 0:17am in Italy 22:14
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polettix (or is it 12:17pm?) 22:14
TimToady polettix: Z is a picture of the row-major visitation order 22:16
and we thought Y would confuse functional programmers, who think it's the Y combinator...
(it's also short for "zip") 22:17
0017 would be 12:17am
dduncan and certainly an improvement in that regard
polettix TimToady: this is all correct, just thinking it would be cool
TimToady: anyway, I don't particularly like using a single letter as an operator 22:18
moritz what about a haskell'ish `$func` syntax for infixing $func?
we don't have to use backticks though
polettix TimToady: but it probably boils down to getting used to it (or getting not to use it :)
moritz but [`zip`] would look weird 22:19
TimToady `foo` wouldn't tell you what precedence it should be
PerlJam polettix: for some reason I keep seeing your nick as polemix
moritz TimToady: right
polettix rotfl
PerlJam++
PerlJam: anyway, I swear that it's only a casual feedback, no implied flaming :) 22:22
PerlJam yeah, you aren't really being that agressive, but my brain didn't seem to care :) 22:23
polettix I'm actually considering using it as a replacement nick, it's really making me laugh 22:24
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PerlJam laughter is always good 22:26
(unless it's not, but usually that's more of a cackle than a laugh ;)
moritz svnbot6 and evalbot are missing :(
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sparvu hey all 22:30
anyone any ideas about pugs on Solaris 10 x86 or SPARC ? 22:31
I have got the ghc package for Solaris x86 but get problems when configuring pugs
[particle] check smoke.pugscode.org for reports
moritz sparvu: "problems" is not very specific ;) 22:32
sparvu moritz: yeah, true. a sec to pastebin the results
pastebin.com seems not worink. Basically I have ghc in place, perl 5.8.8 in place 22:34
Im trying to ./configure Pugs after I svn co the pugs source code 22:35
and get these:
d: fatal: symbol `s44W_info' in file /export/home/sparvu/ghc/lib/ghc-6.6.1/libHSCabal.a(Utils__90.o): section [1] .text: size 1042: symbol (address 0x400, size 20) lies outside of containing section
thoughtpolice you've run the makefile.pl right? 22:36
polettix is it wrong that I never did ./configure but used perl Makefile.PL?
sparvu hmmm, I think I did a: configure Pugs from start
thoughtpolice try perl Makefile.PL
then run a make
sparvu do I need to clean first ?
thoughtpolice i would go ahead and do so 22:37
moritz eh, ./configure just calls perl Makefile.PL ;-)
sparvu same thing when I ran: perl Makefile.PL
Tene Hmm. Pugs is currently segfaulting for me.
Tene reqbuilds everything from scratch. 22:38
sparvu Just curious: could be something to dow with ghc and static libraries ?
that I have no clue. Well at the moment Im trying to get pugs on Solaris 10 working 22:39
I will keep you posted about results
moritz sparvu: perhaps you could google for Cabal+Solaris issues
sparvu moritz: thx, I will do that 22:40
moritz just a guess though
thoughtpolice just from the err above it pretty much means that the Cabal static lib has a symbol outside of .text where it should be.
how the hell that would happen, I'm not totally sure. especially if you built 6.6.1. 22:41
sparvu Solaris ld != GNU ld. Could this be a problem ?
thoughtpolice might be.
sparvu thx, I will think about it.
thoughtpolice get some gnu tools and configure pugs to build with them rather than your default tools; it could solve your problem 22:42
sparvu yeah, I could try that
thoughtpolice has anybody taken the liberty to put haddock documentation of pugs up? I've noticed haddock-esque comments throughout the source. 22:45
moritz sleep& 22:50
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sparvu thanks for suggestions. I will post the same question on opensolaris.org - I hope somebody else is interested about Perl6/Solaris 22:51
'night everyone
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thoughtpolice later 22:57
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