pugscode.org/ | sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by agentzh on 7 June 2007.
rhr doesn't a Str contain either a buf or an array of codes or graphs? should there just be an interface for accessing those directly? 00:00
TimToady there's no guarantee that Str is stored in anything directly indexible 00:01
rhr or does that constrain the implementation too much?
ok
TimToady a grapheme could consist of one base character and four or five extras... 00:02
I suppose a buf of arbitrary Int could in theory encode any character 00:03
rhr that would be tricky...
TimToady but usually you get a serial representation of text, and there's an awful lot of overhead in assuming it's always turned into something you can .[]
P5 has gotten away with using utf-8 internally rather well (apart from compatibility issues) 00:04
dduncan now I just with P5 had a simple test one could apply to a string to say "is this in character mode" rather than "is this in byte mode" 00:05
TimToady the main difference in P6 is we're trying to avoid associating positions with numbers at all
unless forced to
so the position remains the same even if the string decides to change representation underneath
dduncan afaik, the current Encode::is_utf8 only returns true if its a character outside the ascii range
so that by itself can't test if a string is characters 00:06
except that if it is false, you can test that a string is not characters
TimToady P6 limits Buf8 semantics to ASCII; you have to tell it what a hi-bit char means explicitly 00:07
so no mixing up implicit latin-1 with implicit utf-8
rhr can you .[] a buf? 00:09
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TimToady yes, it's both an array and a string 00:15
but like a Cat it behaves more like a string in list context 00:16
(I think)
though there some inconsistency in saying that @$foo pulls out the elements, if list($foo) doesn't... hmmm... 00:17
rhr yeah, that's a problem...
TimToady so I guess explicit list() does but implicit list context doesn't 00:18
implicit list context being more like capture context
so we're probably okay there
I keep confusing list() with capture context.
and if I can't keep it straight... :) 00:19
rhr so most list contexts are really capture contexts?
TimToady yes, until they're coerced or bound 00:20
which is sort of contrary to P5 usage
part of the reason I keep tripping myself up
just because something is in a list doesn't put it into list context 00:21
foo(@foo,@bar) almost certainly has @foo in scalar context
and maybe @bar too
rhr what (other than bufs) responds differently to capture context?
TimToady eh? nothing ressponds to capture context... 00:22
the whole point of capture context is to defer any such response...
rhr ok
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TimToady \(@foo, @bar) doesn't commit to whether the arrays end up bound in list or scalar context 00:23
and function arglists as well as returns are automatcially \()ified
rhr right, I think I get it now
TimToady in fact, we could replace \() with dontcall(@foo,@bar) or some such
capture(@foo,@bar) more likely 00:24
but the \() notation is handy
and fairly compatible with p5think 00:25
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Aankhen`` \() seems similar to Lisp's QUOTE. 02:08
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Aankhen`` starts a smoke. 03:17
thoughtpolice hey Aankhen`` 03:20
Aankhen`` Hiya thoughtpolice. :-)
What's shakin'?
thoughtpolice nothing really. i woke up
that was about it
Aankhen`` Aww, poor you. :-(
thoughtpolice my sleep is all messed up during the summer 03:21
Aankhen`` I'm finally done with three days of barely any sleep; napped for a couple of hours right after college. Looking forward to the weekend.
thoughtpolice hopefully once everybody else is asleep and it's quiet I can write something
Aankhen`` Heh.
thoughtpolice i'm running a smoke 03:23
before I start writing anything I should probably update
Aankhen`` Hmm, error building. 03:29
03:31 bonesss joined
Aankhen`` Dang, can't remember how I'd fixed this last time. 03:31
Or maybe I just did a rebuild.
thoughtpolice uh, brb
Aankhen`` tries.
03:36 amnesiac joined 03:39 thoughtpolice joined
Aankhen`` Okay, rebuild worked. 03:42
WB thoughtpolice.
And we start our smoke. 03:44
03:45 gilby left
thoughtpolice building now 03:46
[ 56 of 109] Compiling Pugs.AST.Internals
:x
Aankhen`` ext/Perl-Compiler/t/PIL.t
thoughtpolice hm, anybody seen this: deputy.cs.berkeley.edu/ 03:48
lambdabot Title: Deputy
thoughtpolice seems interesting.
written in ocaml too 03:50
Aankhen`` t/builtins/arrays now. 03:51
03:51 REPLeffect joined
Aankhen`` Finishing up t/examples/99problems/ now. 03:57
(I'm keeping you all informed since I know you're dying to know.) 03:58
thoughtpolice i wouldn't know what to do without it
Aankhen`` I thought as much.
04:03 duend joined
amnesiac stabs Aankhen`` 04:07
Aankhen`` spontaneously combusts. 04:09
amnesiac: Now what did I do to deserve that?
amnesiac Aankhen``, being Aankhen``
:P
Aankhen`` :-(
amnesiac :)
Aankhen`` Just for that, I'm at t/run/!
spinclad awaits the next checkpoint with breath abated 04:11
Aankhen`` T/UNSPECCED LAWL
Ahem.
Sorry, evil alter-ego took over for a second.
spinclad 14vv1 04:12
Aankhen`` Heh. 04:13
spinclad CAN DUZ UNSPECKED ? 04:14
Aankhen`` ROTFL. 04:16
Okay, smoke done, uploading. You can all breathe easy now.
spinclad whew! thanks, Aankhen``.
Aankhen`` No prob. 04:17
I'm a very nice guy.
I do accept donations, though, if you're of a mind.
spinclad cookies Aankhen``
Aankhen`` Yum.
What a delicious way to go. 04:18
Dang, still 31 minutes. 04:25
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lvh wah? haskell? i dont know any haskell :-( 05:51
dduncan you don't have to in order to use perl 6 05:52
lvh [particle] gave me a commit bit
if i want to make good use of it, i should know haskell, no? 05:53
[particle] nah
dduncan that's fine ... probably a majority of people who commit to Pugs don't know haskell
I don't know haskell
[particle] you can program in perl 5, or perl 6, or document things in pod
lvh aha.
just one question, why haskell? :-p
dduncan audreyt picked it
[particle] A Grand Experiment.
audrey wanted to learn haskell. what better way than to write a perl 6 compiler in it? 05:54
lvh and this is the next "offical" perl6?
[particle] there is no "official" perl 6
*implementation
only the spec and test suite are official
dduncan anything which implements the Synopsis is a Perl 6
Pugs happens to be the most complete today 05:55
one
lvh aha.
[particle] so, it's possible someday you'll see a perl 6 running on CLR or JVM
lvh but the perl5.8 most people have installed is written in C, right?
if not I need to do an apt-get source
dduncan yes
[particle] yes.
perl 5 has an official implementation and an unofficial spec :)
dduncan that is, the implementation is the spec 05:56
generally, a nasty situation to be in
[particle] lvh: do you know c? 05:57
thoughtpolice haskell is the bomb
that might also be a reason as to why it was used :)
lvh [particle]: yes, more than i know perl and DEFINATELY more than I know haskell
[particle] well... it just so happens parrot is written in c, and looking for help :) 05:58
lvh parrot wanna coder? KRAA KRAA
thoughtpolice if you want low level, parrot is the place to be.
get workin' on a vm. :)
[particle] objec- 05:59
coding an object-oriented assembler is fun
lvh tionable C?
thoughtpolice definately
dduncan I'm writing a VM in Perl for another language
not sure how many people do that
thoughtpolice what language
dduncan my own Muldis D language 06:00
a replacement for SQL
thoughtpolice cool
[particle] who doesn't like sql? ;)
dduncan essentially, my compiler just generates Perl code from it, which is what actually runs
thoughtpolice there a parser/lexer you using specifically?
dduncan so Perl's run-time comilation abilities with eval are part of the bomb
thoughtpolice or is it just a simple enough DSL you're doing it by hand 06:01
[particle] lvh: you'll likely find coders hacking away madly on irc.perl.org#parrot in 6hrs or so (all's quiet now)
dduncan Muldis D's native form is an AST, or tree of perl objects, so no parsing needed
thoughtpolice sweet
dduncan that said, a string form can be made over this which is grammatically very simple
lvh [particle]: what tz do most of them live in
dduncan but that would be mainly just for use in a shell, normal coders would use the ASTs 06:02
lvh but parrot, as i understand it, tries to be a vm for many languages, including perl6
[particle] i'm PST, but we have folks in australia, austria, england, and every usa tz
thoughtpolice yes, it's obligation is to support perl 6 semantics
[particle] lvh: yes, that's accurate 06:03
dduncan SQL is deficient for the task of relational databases, Muldis D does it better
thoughtpolice but it is designed as a virtual machine to be used by many languages
lvh however, they're following the same perl6 spec (_the_ perl6 spec on pugscode.org) as you guys are?
thoughtpolice in the source distribution there are language implementations
dduncan if one asks why, one could also ask why we're making Perl 6 when Perl 5 exists
thoughtpolice such as Basic, perl1 (punie) and even perl 6
dduncan the reason is similar
[particle] lvh: we need to be able to support the concepts defined in the perl 6 spec
btw i'm a parrot project team member
i hang out here because i like the company :) 06:04
thoughtpolice hah
[particle] lvh: parrot has it's own spec: parrotcode.org/docs/pdd/ 06:05
lambdabot Title: Parrot Documentation :: Parrot Design Documents - parrotcode
[particle] we're currently implementing pdd15, the object model 06:06
lvh [particle]: well the good thing is the only real OO playing I've done is with Moose, which as I understand it is a perl6ish implementation of OO in perl5 06:08
[particle] yes, indeed. moose was reviewed closely by allison when writing pdd15 (and i'm familiar with it myself) 06:09
soon we'll be (re)implementing i/o in parrot 06:10
many of the subsystems (e.g. i/o) are prototypes
so we're taking lessons learned, current research, and best practices and redefining the subsystems one-at-a-time 06:11
gaal hello everyone 06:15
[particle] moose
gaal moose!
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lvh do mooses go moo? 06:21
gaal se 06:24
Aankhen`` We need more O(moose) algorithms. 06:25
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gaal (:{moose}:) 06:25
SamB Aankhen``: are you looking to write "Ode to a moose"? 06:27
[particle] has to find a way to put that into a document somewhere, "...in the worst case, this algorithm behaves like a moose--watch out!"
Aankhen`` SamB: Not quite yet, no.
lvh Aankhen``: tell me when you need some O(absurdly huge number^N) algorithms 06:28
gaal I think Condorcet voting has some O(n^4) algos 06:29
Aankhen`` Heh.
lvh still not as bad as 4^n :p
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gaal hahahaha, unicode bug? 03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA [Ī»] 06:39
"lamda"? there is only one code point in unicode that calls this letter "lambda" 06:40
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dduncan when svnbot is missing, who is able to bring it back? 08:24
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thoughtpolice has delegation not been implemented yet in pugs? 08:26
dduncan dunno 08:27
give an example
thoughtpolice hm hold on i think I might have gotten it 08:29
hm it seems not 08:33
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thoughtpolice vroom. 09:24
anybody alive in here? 09:29
rindolf Hi thoughtpolice
moritz is alive of sorts 09:30
thoughtpolice just got done with the object-orientation blog :)
about time, compared to the others the time span in which I wrote them was roughly that of a week. 09:31
but downtime has been nice
moritz lvh++ # first commit. but please enter a log message next time ("added myself to AUTHORS" or something) 09:34
thoughtpolice: re blog post: if you want to modify a class member variable from outside you should declare it as "has $.age is rw;" 10:16
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thoughtpolice hm iirc it only works because the traits aren't implemented right? 10:18
i'll change it since I guess that would be the correct way 10:19
moritz right 10:22
thoughtpolice moritz: fixed all the examples that modified without is rw trait :) 10:24
moritz++
moritz thoughtpolice: good 10:25
thoughtpolice: in the "Delegation" section... shouldn't clas Foo inherit from backend1 and backend2?
thoughtpolice: otherwise there is no conflict at all
and I think you didn't explain "sumbethod" right: "Submethods are for declaring infrastructural methods that shouldn't be inherited by subclasses, such as initializers" 10:27
from perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Submethods
lambdabot Title: S12
thoughtpolice moritz: just a sec 10:28
moritz I wish I had that kind of review for perl-6.de/ ;-) 10:31
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Schmerzloses Programmieren
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riffraff hi 10:34
moritz hi riffraff ;)
daxim how do I say glob(*) in pugs?
moritz looking... 10:35
no glob in S29 :( 10:36
thoughtpolice moritz: fixed submethods 10:41
moritz thoughtpolice++ 10:42
@karma thoughtpolice
lambdabot thoughtpolice has a karma of 1
moritz s/inheritence/inheritance/ # unless I'm very much mistaken ;) 10:43
thoughtpolice moritz: fixed those too 10:45
moritz++
and on the delegations note yeah foo needed to inherit
on perlcabal the .t shown didn't do this however, which is why the delegation failed
guess it needs to be updated
thanks :) 10:46
moritz: okay, I fixed I'm pretty sure most all of it. if you know anything on the note of operator overloading that'd be awesome. :p 10:51
well, at least the errata you specified
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moritz thoughtpolice: I think you've done it the right way, it NYI or something ;) 10:56
thoughtpolice :) 10:57
well at least I'm getting stuff out
and it's cool google analytics works with blogspot :)
daxim www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Polymorphism#Perl sub members = explosion in punctuation factory :) 11:01
lambdabot Title: Polymorphism - Rosetta Code
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renormalist ?eval for 1..10 -> $i { say $i } 11:38
11:38 fglock joined, evalbot_r16643 is now known as evalbot_r16645
evalbot_r16645 OUTPUT[1ā¤2ā¤3ā¤4ā¤5ā¤6ā¤7ā¤8ā¤9ā¤10ā¤] undef 11:38
renormalist ?eval for 1..10 -> $i { say $i++ }
evalbot_r16645 Error: Can't modify constant item: VRef <Scalar::Const:0xb6715134>
renormalist that's my most annoying missing feature in Pugs. I can't modify loop variables. 11:39
anyone knows how to fix this? I know the answer: Only Audrey can do it, right? :-)
fglock ?eval for 1..10 -> $i is copy { say ++$i } 11:45
evalbot_r16645 OUTPUT[2ā¤3ā¤4ā¤5ā¤6ā¤7ā¤8ā¤9ā¤10ā¤11ā¤] undef
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fglock ?eval for 1..10 -> $i { $i := $i + 1; say $i } 11:54
evalbot_r16645 OUTPUT[2ā¤3ā¤4ā¤5ā¤6ā¤7ā¤8ā¤9ā¤10ā¤11ā¤] undef 11:55
gaal also, I think Juerd's <-> proposal was finally accepted, so you can for @deer <-> $i { $i++ }, although you'd still need is copy with a range literal. 11:57
yes, as of r14356 / S04. 12:00
dunno if it's implemented, let's see 12:01
?eval @moo = <1 2 3>; for @moo <-> $i { $i++ } @moo
evalbot_r16645 Error: ā¤Unexpected ">"
gaal apparently not. commits welcome! 12:02
prolly start with Parser.hs:1331, ruleBlockFormalPointy 12:03
renormalist: give it a go, fun small haskell whirl
bbiab& 12:04
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gaal okay, I'm adding it, tests very welcome 12:43
TimToady: is <-> allowed everywhere -> is? 12:45
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gaal huh! ruleBlockFormalPointy looks wrong, it has a separate parse for one final trait 12:55
so this is going to fail, I think:
?eval @m=<1 2 3 4>; for @m -> $x is rw, $y is rw { $x++; $y++ }
evalbot_r16645 undef 12:56
gaal mmmmh okay... whatever it is that's looking at the "lvalue" property of that param list is going to be disappointed.
?eval @m=<1 2 3 4>; for @m -> $x is rw, $y { $x++; } 12:57
evalbot_r16645 undef
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perlygatekeeper hey, where can I learn about perl6? 15:32
Gothmog_ I think the Synopses are a good point to start at: dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html 15:33
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
[particle] dev.perl.org/perl6/ 15:34
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - perl6
moritz perlygatekeeper: a much gentler introduction is in svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/articles/tpr.pod 15:36
HTML-Version: moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs/docs/articl...r.pod.html
lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Today!
moritz although it seems a bit outdated :( 15:41
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moritz who is in charge of planetsix.perl.org/ ? maybe diveintoperl6 could be added 15:48
lambdabot Title: Planet Perl Six
moritz to the subscription list
[particle] moritz: i have a feeling emailing [email@hidden.address] will help 15:50
moritz [particle]: I'll try that ;)
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TimToady gaal: as far as I know, <-> is allowed anywhere that -> is syntactically, though of course there are contexts that are unlikely to supply a writeable variable 15:52
[particle] for @array <-> $a { ... }
TimToady your typical boolean expression isn't writeable, but then, you wouldn't use -> on the typical boolean expression either
while @foo <-> @myaliasto@foo { ... } is silly, but if @foo were a function returning @foo, would be okay 15:53
well, without the spurious @ there... 15:54
but I am reminded that STD.pm doesn't recognize <-> yet... 15:55
[particle] yeah, i just looked it up there and failed
TimToady does now 15:57
[particle] magic! 15:58
moritz SCMagic?
[particle] TimToady: does perl 6 have a way to introspect the subs of different statement control types? 16:01
for example, get a list of all END subs
*sub objects
TimToady if you have a Code object you can ask it for its properties. Certain END blocks also have to be stored in some global list, but that's because their semantics are global 16:04
*Certainly
rindolf Hi TimToady
TimToady top o' the mornin' to ye 16:05
doubtless someone will write a way to walk all code objects in existence, for debugging and profiling if nothing else... 16:07
amnesiac 'lo TimToady, all 16:10
amnesiac yawns 16:11
[particle] TimToady: that's what i'm talking about, basically
parrot's perl6 compiler may have a hash of arrays of code objects
keyed on control type 16:12
TimToady might, but the api probably shouldn't broadcast the data structure
[particle] yeah, just mentioning that it would be easy to introspect, if the hll desires 16:13
TimToady inside-out closures :)
but then how do you garbage collect obsolete code objects? 16:14
there's a design smell there
[particle] i don't think they need to stick around after they're executed 16:15
TimToady eh? most of 'em do because you might reenter
only the global ones are one-shot
[particle] hrmm
ah, right. i'm talking about globals only
TimToady I wouldn't necessarily even keep a hash of them, in that case 16:17
just specially named global arrays of code
@*END or whatever
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
TimToady lambdabot: try it your own self
they have to be called from a special spot to have special semantics anyway; I don't see any use case for hashifying them together 16:18
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[particle] ok 16:19
looks like now they're keyed as 'END' (however this went in yesterday, and is far from final) 16:20
TimToady doesn't mean there isn't one--I've been known to be stupid once or twice
[particle] see 'reset' ;)
TimToady druther not 16:21
I suppose I could spec the official names of the code queues :) 16:24
[particle] if you feel it'll be helpful. if it's just internal to the compiler, then we're fine as is :) 16:26
TimToady hmm, most of them are named by methods on the code object: &foo.ENTER
but we don't have a name for the main code block
[particle] yeah, you've got 'default' in STD 16:27
but nothing for MAIN 16:28
TimToady it's arguable whether END blocks belong more to the main code or are just global to the process 16:29
probably doesn't matter 16:30
[particle] i can't think of a reason to force a decision either way 16:31
TimToady so I think using the existing global namespace is probably best, rather than forcing a new &__MAIN__ notation of some sort
[particle] parrot has no :end modifier for subs now, so we need to keep them separate in a global to track them 16:32
TimToady basically there's an implicit routine routine around the main code that calls it and handles ENDS after it exits
[particle] yeah, that's ugly. stick with what we've got
right. that's just what we're doing
TimToady except I don't really see a need for the extra hash indirection offhand 16:33
[particle] however we may abstract it a bit in PAST if necessary to support languages that may have multiple statement control types after main
but i can't think of a language that has more than one type of end routine 16:34
well, kiss then. we'll change to a global array 16:35
TimToady I can see modperl6 rewriting all END blocks into LEAVE blocks on the main routine, since you could have multiple routines thinking they're "main" 16:37
so maybe that's an argument not using the symbol table, but just attaching the ENDS to the main code 16:38
then modperl6 doesn't have to rewrite
so I think we need a way to name the main code
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[particle] there will still be only one main per process, though, yes? 16:39
TimToady not under modperl6 16:40
probably
[particle] yeah, i thought about saying 'thread'
but we don't really have terminology down yet, ENOSPEC
TimToady apache liking to pretend it's an OS...
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TimToady &*BLOCK is probably the main code 16:40
[particle] yeah, it thinks it's emacs or something
TimToady so probably &*BLOCK.END should return the array of END blocks 16:41
hmm, I wonder if each thread gets its own global namespace... 16:42
PerlVM 16:43
[particle] with a global namespace for shared stuff?
TimToady @**FOO
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
[particle] hee
if hardware ever catches up to this language, it's gonna be some vm someday 16:44
rhr if <-> binds rw paramaters, should <--> declare rw lvalue returns? (half-joking :) 16:46
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diakopter what *does* it take to man/woman TPF's booth at an Oscon? 17:55
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gaal rehi 19:32
19:32 Limbic_Region joined
gaal TimToady: okay, thanks. hopefully I can finish this tonight 19:32
Limbic_Region salutations all 19:35
gaal hi Limbic_Region 19:36
Limbic_Region did you get my @tell regarding the precompiled Test.pm ?
gaal I saw that message, yes, but have no way of devving win32 these days 19:37
Limbic_Region did the nopaste offer any insight?
gaal I forget
got the url handy?
Limbic_Region just a second 19:40
sial.org/pbot/24983 19:41
lambdabot Title: Paste #24983 from "Limbic_Region" at 68.48.99.41
gaal ah yes, i remember now. what r is this? 19:43
Limbic_Region: cause there was actually one buggy revision, you may have hit that. 19:46
TimToady n
or was it y?
gaal m
TimToady offline for a while flying to san diego... & 19:55
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gaal I have the parser written, but it's not getting entered. presumably the parameter parser is too greedy, and unfortunately it looks like this is in an undecorated rule so i dont' knwo precisely what's failing. however: 20:26
my @m = <1 2 3>; for @m <-> $x { $x++ } @m
anyone got an idea why "<-" should be consumed? the error is on an unexpected ">". 20:27
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gaal it's not taking < as the start of a list-quote <> op 20:27
rhr less-than minus? 20:31
gaal what does that mean, and why would it be expected there? 20:32
rhr it doesn't make sense, but I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed @m < -xxx 20:34
just a guess
gaal "< -" ne "<-"
rhr aren't you allowed to leave out the space there?
gaal I don't think you are, no 20:35
rhr ok
?eval say "foo" if -2<-1 20:36
20:36 evalbot_r16645 is now known as evalbot_r16647
evalbot_r16647 OUTPUT[fooā¤] Bool::True 20:36
gaal hmm. that's a problem, then.
but i just ran out of wakies, so, tomorrow :/ 20:37
rhr <-> shouldn't be a problem with longest-token matching, but I don't know how pugs works
gaal somoething must have committed.. but i'm asleep already. night... 20:39
zZZ&
20:55 baest joined 20:57 Alchemy joined 20:58 prism joined 21:19 fglock left 21:43 prism joined 21:54 perlbot joined, polettix joined 22:00 crem joined 22:05 dagur joined 22:09 weinigLap joined 22:52 allbery_b joined 22:56 Jakko joined
Jakko hi, how wold you access the php like $_POST array in perl? 22:56
moritz Jakko: are you talking about perl 6? 22:58
Tene Jakko: could you give us a bit of context about what you're asking?
moritz if not you're wrong here
Jakko: small hint: perldoc CGI 22:59
Jakko I'm using a HTTP::Request object 23:01
and the ->content sub seems to return an empty string
...always...
I'm talking about perl in general
Tene Jakko: you probably want #perl
this channel is specifically for Perl 6
Jakko did it change? 23:02
I'm version 5.8.8
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Tene Perl 6 is the next version of perl that's currently in development. It's quite different. 23:02
moritz Jakko: _everything_ changed, perl 6 is a complete rewrite
Jakko Thanks 23:04
bye!
23:04 Jakko left
Tene Speaking of which, I need to start working on Web and HTTP and such. 23:04
moritz if I can be of any help, be sure to let me know 23:05
I'm not good at designing systems, but if you need "implementation slaves" I might help you ;)
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Limbic_Region @tell gaal FYI, that precompiled Test.pm has apparently been b0rk ever since the pad refactor went in 23:34
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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