pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
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masak DarkWolf84++ # for writing his first tests 05:29
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bloonix 21 hours left 09:41
then holiday
Daenyth ?eval my @foo = ( '!', '@' ); my @bar = ( '!blah', '@blah' ); for @bar { when m/@foo.any/ { say 'wtfhax' } default { say 'ohnoz' } } 09:46
pugsbot_r17185 *** Cannot parse regex: @foo.any␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤OUTPUT[ohnoz␤*** Cannot parse regex: @foo.any␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤ohnoz␤] undef
Daenyth well that would explain it..
Aankhen`` ?eval my @foo = <! @>; my @bar = <!blah @blah>; for @bar -> $elm { if /@foo/ { say "Gotcha" } else { say "Didn't gotcha" } } 09:48
Oops.
pugsbot_r17185 *** Cannot parse regex: @foo␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤OUTPUT[Didn't gotcha␤*** Cannot parse regex: @foo␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤Didn't gotcha␤] undef
Aankhen`` ?eval my @foo = <! @>; my @bar = <!blah @blah>; for @bar -> $elm { if $elm ~~ /@foo/ { say "Gotcha" } else { say "Didn't gotcha" } }
pugsbot_r17185 *** Cannot parse regex: @foo␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤OUTPUT[Didn't gotcha␤*** Cannot parse regex: @foo␤*** Error: Error: interpolation of @foo not implemented at /home/evalbot/svk/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 291.␤␤Didn't gotcha␤] undef
Aankhen`` Ah.
Sorry, I didn't see the "not implemented" till the second time.
Daenyth hehe
yeah
mine just.. does nothing
doesn't even tell me it's not implemented
Aankhen`` I don't have a recently built Pugs, unfortunately. 09:49
Hmm, I think I might as well try a build.
Daenyth mine is yesterday or day-2
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Aankhen`` 80,6947570real 27m23.491s 10:24
80,6947570user 22m0.387s
80,6947570sys 1m41.238s
bloonix I dont understand the error message: 10:46
Must only use named arguments to new() constructor
new(1)
submethod BUILD (*@pids) {
Aankhen`` You can't use positional arguments in BUILD, only named arguments. 10:48
You can write your own `new` method that takes positional arguments and turns them into named arguments for BUILD.
bloonix named arguments are +@pids ? 10:49
a 10:51
*ARG*
masak bloonix: t/blocks/sub_named_params.t:80:is(eval('named_array(:x)'), (1), 'named array taking one named arg'); 10:53
named parameters are identified by their name, not by their position in the param list 10:54
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bloonix okay, now I understand 11:02
perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Named_arguments
lambdabot Title: S06
bloonix "You may use either the adverbial form, :name($value), or the autoquoted arrow form, name => $value." 11:03
masak yes
bloonix "These must occur at the top "comma" level, and no other forms are taken as named pairs by default."
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bloonix is it possible to say that I expect (pids => @pids) ? 11:06
except
no, expect was right :) 11:07
masak looks sane to me
wolverian yes
bloonix okay, then I have to check for key pids in the submethod? 11:09
or can I write this in the declaration? example: 11:10
submethod BUILD (I expect "pids => @pids) {}
wolverian submethod BUILD (@pids) { ... } 11:11
bloonix or is that not possible=
wolverian though generally you don't need to do that; a has @.foo; is enough. 11:12
bloonix but its only possible to call new(pids => @pids) ?
wolverian the default BUILD will then initialise it if .new is passed a foo
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wolverian bloonix, yes, because that's how the object initialisation is specified. your own functions can take the @pids as a positional parameter too. 11:13
but when constructing an object, the attributes have to be named.
bloonix how?
wolverian sub foo (@pids) { ... } foo(pids => @pids); foo(@pids); # same thing
bloonix now I am really confused, but I understand 11:14
wolverian see perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Paramete..._arguments 11:15
lambdabot Title: S06
wolverian that pertains to regular functions and methods
object construction is in S12
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bloonix getpwuid() is nyi ? 11:20
wolverian nyi?
not yet implemented?
anyway, see getpw in S29 11:22
S29 is a lot better than it used to be just a few months ago. (whoever did it)++
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bloonix wolverian: yes not yet ... :) 11:25
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pmurias ruoso: hi 11:40
ruoso hi 11:41
ruoso have been thinking a lot about tree transformation in the last days
masak pugs is an amazing project. the READTHEM file alone is amazing 11:45
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Shillo Hullo all 12:00
pmurias hullo 12:05
lichtkind hi
masak hi 12:06
lichtkind was there any movement with the perl6 doku or tutorial in last weeks? 12:09
pmurias ruoso: any interesting fruits of you thinking?
lichtkind: not any i heard of 12:10
lichtkind pmurias: cool because the perl6 tutorial i announced im currently writing as an series of articles, i want to revisit them and then write as tut 12:11
pmurias by the way have you heard of perlhints? 12:12
lichtkind nope
whtasthat
Shillo dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/...70804.html -- describes a number of meetings I've heard. :>
lambdabot Title: Dilbert Comic Strip Archive - Dilbert.com - The Official Dilbert Website by Scot ...
pmurias lichtkind: a project to creat a tool which explains snippets of perl6 12:13
lichtkind pmurias: cool its that a p5 module?
pmurias misc/perlhints 12:15
also annotations in STD.pm
lichtkind pmurias: the last i didnt understand 12:16
pmurias wait
lunch& 12:17
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pmurias look at src/perl6/Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm and grep for perlhints 12:28
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Linux\2 hi 14:11
buetow hi 14:12
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pmurias hi 14:18
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ruoso pmurias, I'm back... I had some connection problems 14:32
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pasteling "ruoso" at 77.54.10.109 pasted "Some thoughts about tree transforming" (120 lines, 3.5K) at sial.org/pbot/26743 14:33
Khisanth wonders if all the 6's are going to be sticking around 14:38
masak ruoso: that's XSLT in Perl :)
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diakopter ruoso: check out www.cduce.org/design_features.html 14:45
lambdabot Title: CDuce: Design and features
masak diakopter: cool! 14:47
Khisanth: probably until p6 replaces p5 in number of users, and then some 14:53
Khisanth masak: it would have be before perl6's release or never 14:55
masak Khisanth: you think so? must have been a similar situation with p4->p5 once
the list is still p5p, isn't it?
Khisanth perl4 had a bunch of p4foo functions? 14:56
masak no, but some things were named perl5something, is my point
not exactly functions, though
does perl6 have a bunch of p6foo functions? 14:57
pmurias no
Khisanth actually function was not the right word :)
masak I think the situations are comparable 14:58
Khisanth the thought came up when seeing the p6r thing in the paste
masak yes, I gathered
Khisanth and 6 -> 7 not 5-> 6 :)
masak Khisanth: huh? 14:59
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masak no, I meant that there will be a *reason* to call p6 p6 as long as p5 has greater market share 15:00
Khisanth probably shouldn't be wondering about perl7 before perl6 is released
masak when will perl7 be ready? :)
Khisanth Christmas!
masak yes, probably 15:01
because once p6 is out, every day will be christmas, right?
so, by tautology, p7 would be released by christmas 15:02
Khisanth definitely no :)
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ruoso masak, actually XSLT doesn't provide much ways for a complex match 15:06
masak ruoso: define "complex match" 15:07
ruoso in that example I pasted 15:08
line 77
masak I was just looking at that :) 15:09
what's the exclamation mark?
ruoso not
masak well,
XPath does that
and thus XSLT
select="p6r:elem[ strm:number and not strm:operator]" 15:10
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ruoso can you represent all of that examples with XPath? 15:10
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masak ruoso: I think so 15:11
XSLT + XPath
masak really likes XPath 1.0
moritz_ re 15:12
masak lightweight, and (seemingly) picks the best of and extends Unix path
& # home 15:15
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Aankh|Clone XPath++ 16:03
Possibly the only thing to like about XML, come to think of it. 16:04
moritz_ XML is not too bad... xhtml is a vast improvement over the sgml based html 4 16:07
Aankh|Clone Uhm, how?
moritz_ in sgml there are things allowed that I wouldn't recognize as valid
Aankh|Clone So? 16:08
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pasteling "moritz_" at 84.148.44.188 pasted "example of weird but valid html" (5 lines, 93B) at sial.org/pbot/26745 16:08
moritz_ it's no fun to maintain html pages written in way you don't really understand 16:09
Aankhen`` shrugs.
moritz_ Aankhen``: did you take a look at the nopaste? ugly, if you ask me
Aankhen`` Could make the same argument with a simple s/html pages/Perl code/.
Yes, it's ugly, but I don't think that XML's restrictiveness is a good argument in favour of it. 16:10
Draconian error handling is a futile effort.
moritz_ Aankhen``: with the differnce that there is only _one_ perl5 interpreter, but many html "interpreters"
Aankhen`` Fair enough.
There's a formal spec for handling HTML. Where it's lacking is in error handling. 16:11
On the other hand, XML is not lacking in error handling at all, since it just says "die horribly".
moritz_ which is better imho 16:12
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moritz_ because if you say "this is html" you should mean it 16:12
Aankhen`` That doesn't work.
moritz_ it would work if most implementations honoured the standard
Aankhen`` Creating well-formed and valid HTML isn't difficult, but it does require an investment in terms of time and effort to learn it. 16:13
moritz_ s/most implementations/Internet Explorer/
like every markup
Aankhen`` How would it work?
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Aankhen`` (If most implementations honoured the standard.) 16:13
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Aankhen`` You'd still have nine out of ten pages with tag soup. 16:13
moritz_ if they just outright died on invalid html, webmasters would update their pages 16:14
Aankhen`` No, they wouldn't. One of two things would happen.
moritz_ just imagine what would happen if google would only index valid pages
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Aankhen`` a) The Web dies out. Unlikely. 16:14
moritz_ webmasters want their pages viewed, that's why they write them
Aankhen`` b) Someone builds an implementation that *doesn't* choke on invalid HTML, and everyone switches to that instead, since they'd rather have the content.
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Aankhen`` Heck, they wouldn't even need to build an implementation from scratch; they could just fork one of the existing open source engines. 16:15
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moritz_ sadly, yes 16:16
it's so much harder to write forgiving parsers than validating ones
Aankhen`` No, actually, it isn't.
A forgiving parser tries to figure out what the author intended. 16:17
moritz_ perhaps I just don't know the theory
Aankhen`` Well, think about it.
<b><i>foo</b></i>
moritz_ well, that's a simple example
try to parse the output for ms frontpage of anno 1998 or something
Aankhen`` Validating parser: okay, let's see… aha! You closed the `b` element before closing the `i` element! ERROR! 16:18
moritz_ with wrongly nested tables that _I_ don't understand
how in the seven heavens should I write a parser for tag soup I don't understand myself?
Aankhen`` Forgiving parser: okay, let's see… the `i` element hasn't been closed, but the `b` element is being closed here… uh… I wonder if that means they want to create a new `b` element and new `i` element, or just close the original ones, or… ARGH ITS ALL TOO MUCH
moritz_ Aankhen``: ok, I get your point, but once you start to forgive, you have to forgive more and more, until it's just plain guess work 16:19
Aankhen`` Indeed. 16:20
That's why it's much harder to write a forgiving parser than a validating parser.
Oh, jeez.
moritz_ didn't I say that previously? *g*
Aankhen`` I swear I read your original sentence as "it's so much harder to write validating parsers than forgiving ones". 16:21
moritz_ *ROFL*
Aankhen`` hangs his head in shame.
Believe me, I advocate well-formed, valid, semantic HTML (note: that's *not* XHTML ;-) at all times, and I can't stand tag soup. 16:22
moritz_
.oO( let's write a forgiving perl 6 parser... )Oo.
Aankhen`` I just don't like XML overly much.
Isn't that what you get when you start a file with a bare version number? <G>
moritz_ I didn't like it previsously, but then at $work I had to parse the "universal file format" written by a CAD/CAE program 16:23
and convert it to xml
and the xml was just way easier to handle
Aankhen`` In what way? 16:24
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ruoso brb 16:24
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moritz_ for example these .unv used variable length blocks that contained lines that were treated as comments... 16:24
but only the relative position inside the block marked them as comments 16:25
Aankhen`` Ah.
moritz_ and that was different for every type of block
Aankhen`` That sounds like a pretty stupid format.
moritz_ it is indeed, but I-DEAS uses it to store its material data
Aankhen`` :-(
moritz_ whereas Ansys just uses MatML, which is an xml "standard"
I could just download the schema and validate my generated files with that 16:26
(only at the beginning... later I discovered that they diverted from the standard :( - still better than .unv, though)
Aankhen`` That's an advantage of better tools available for the format, not an advantage of the format itself. 16:27
(Unless you consider widespread existing use of a format as an advantage, in which case XML certainly wins by a landslide.)
moritz_ not quite - I don't think that "universal files" are that easy to validate
Aankhen`` Sure, but that's comparing one bad format to another, worse, format. 16:28
(XML being the bad format, of course. :-)
moritz_ so which format would you use to store material data?
Aankhen`` S-Expressions! ;-)
…honestly, I don't know what material data looks like. But if it can be described with XML, it can be described much more concisely and robustly with S-Expressions. 16:29
moritz_ maybe 16:30
diakopter Aankhen``: did you take a look at cduce?
moritz_ is not entirely convinced
Aankhen`` diakopter: I don't believe I've heard of that.
diakopter: What is it?
diakopter oh; I mentioned it to ruoso and masak earlier 16:31
Aankhen`` moritz_: That's alright, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just enjoy debating things. ;-)
diakopter: Ah, I'll backlog.
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moritz_ Aankhen``: same for me, most of the time 16:31
Aankhen`` moritz_: Are you an opinionated jerk too?! :-D
moritz_ just wanted to emphasize that working with xml is not as bad as with some other, broken file formats
Aankhen`` Oh, sure. 16:32
moritz_ Aankhen``: of course, that's why I like #perl6... or something ;)
Aankhen`` grins.
diakopter: That looks nice. 16:33
moritz_ Aankhen``: btw feb, the maker of the "old" irclogs on colabti.de asked if he could steal some of our CSS ;-) 16:34
Aankhen`` moritz_: If you want my answer, it *is* in the Pugs repo, isn't it? =)
moritz_ Aankhen``: I assumed it's just artistic2 as the rest of the repo... I just wanted to tell you that somebody else liked it and adoped parts of it ;) 16:37
Aankhen`` cheers! 16:38
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TimToady Gah, just misread my spam as "Do you have any used data types?" 18:26
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Tene Heh. 18:28
kjwcode offers up an int. 18:29
spinclad offers a used condo.
kjwcode So long as there's not an 'm' on the end, spinclad. :) 18:30
spinclad carefully not
DarkWolf84 :)
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DarkWolf84 :prompt for filehandler in S02 is not implemented and no tests for it 18:32
diakopter grr, pp on cygwin didn't link in cygwin.dll 18:33
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Tene compiles parrot. 18:37
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DarkWolf84 what is capture? 18:40
TimToady in which context? 18:41
DarkWolf84 and what is diference between captue and reference
difference* 18:42
in prerl6 context
perl6* 18:43
TimToady well, there are no references in Perl 6, but captures can fill the same role, only more generally
a capture is a kind of frozen argument list that hasn't been bound to a signature yet
it might have an invocant, plus positional parameters, plus named parameters 18:44
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TimToady and it happens that a match object is also a kind of capture 18:47
in either case it's a bunch of associated data you haven't figured out what to do with yet 18:48
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moritz_ where can I read more on capture semantics? 18:51
TimToady well, lessee, S02, S03, S04, S05, S06, S09, and S12 for a start 18:53
moritz_ I feared that ;)
DarkWolf84 I just found some in S03 18:54
and that's why I asked
TimToady well, I just used grep... 18:55
Linux\2 smart use of unix tools (tm)
moritz_ TimToady: I noticed in S05 the term "regex _syntax_" rather often, although in many cases the semantics are meant as well
TimToady hmm 18:56
Linux\2 wait, did TimToady just say he used something else than Perl?!
moritz_ TimToady: or is that again our different understanding of syntax and semantic?
Linux\2: what do you think he wrote perl in the first place?
TimToady well, different syntax implies different semantics 18:57
Linux\2 moritz_: for sure not with grep
TimToady but saying "inside regex syntax" is really talking about the lexical scope of regexes
Linux\2 i guess Perl and Perl6 are written in ... C, arent they? 18:58
TimToady pugs is written in Haskell
moritz_ Linux\2: parrot is written in C, but p6 will be written in p6
lichtkind parrot in C
moritz_ TimToady: "This document summarizes Apocalypse 5, which is about the new regex 18:59
syntax. "
TimToady the p6 compiler in p6, the rest depends on the backend
SamB so perl6 has static typing available?
Linux\2 lichtkind: du zipfelm􏿽xFCtze. wieso bist du nicht auf #perl6de??
moritz_ TimToady: but it's about semantics as well, isn't it?
lichtkind SamB: yea but optionall
Linux\2 TimToady: interesting to write a language and build the language with itself :)
SamB not too optional when you are implementing a programming language...
moritz_ "The new C<:Perl5>/C<:P5> modifier allows Perl<C2><A0>5 regex syntax to be 19:00
TimToady that's interesting as in the ancient chinese curse. :)
moritz_ used instead"
SamB at least, one of such complexity
Linux\2 TimToady: heh
moritz_ that's semantics as well, isn't it?
TimToady it's using "syntax" to mean "language"
moritz_ ah 19:01
Linux\2 can "syntax" be seen as "language grammar"?
lichtkind SamB: i thougt you talked yout the language perl 6
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Linux\2 Perl 6 should be written in Pascal so i can at least understand how the procedures and functions are defined :P 19:02
SamB Linux\2: crazy
Tene Linux\2: then why not just use Pascal?
Linux\2 yeah, thats me. i first learned Pascal and this kept being the only concept i understood entirely
Tene: because i want to be elite and use at least some Perl snipets 19:03
DarkWolf84 for me will be good only bootstraped perl 19:04
:)
Linux\2 bootstrapped Perl? is that a Perl with a strap ... on? 19:05
moritz_ the second thing I noticed in S05 is that <$var> and <&var> have different semantics, although in "normal" p6 list and hash subscripts both have the same semantics regardless of the sigil
rhr Pascal is not my favorite programming language :þ
Linux\2 oh nooo, he uses Gentoo. its all said :P
DarkWolf84 I mean perl6 in perl6
moritz_ I mean $foo[$index] and @foo[$index] mean the same thing - so why the different semantics for the & sigil in assertions in regexes? 19:06
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TimToady those don't mean the same thing 19:06
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moritz_ ok 19:07
but the & sigil is meant to be used to hold anonymous rules (amongst others), right? 19:08
TimToady the assertion parser is not looking for a random expression inside the <
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TimToady <& and <$ are essentially two different tokens 19:10
moritz_ it reminds me a bit of (?, which means differnt things depending depending on the following char 19:15
but < is more readable ;) 19:16
TimToady yes, it's the "next char" trick. we also use it after <foo
<foo()> vs <foo ...> vs <foo: ...>
bloonix hello 19:17
TimToady howdy. cooking lunch, so a bit distracted... 19:18
bloonix holiday & # until in 2 weeks ;)
TimToady does that mean we'll see more of you or less of you? :) 19:19
Linux\2 TimToady: why dont you have one of these famous Freenode cloaks that says [email@hidden.address] 19:21
bloonix TimToady: I have holiday since last week and I was a lot of time here on learn p6, but now I fly 2 week far far away from home :)
s/on/and/
so you see less of me
moritz_ I quite like <before ...> and <after ...> because they are rather intuitive 19:22
a bit like pascal - you know what the program does without ever learning the syntax
bloonix but if I come back I'll have another 1000 questions "to be a pain in the neck" 19:23
moritz_: war das korrekt ausgedrückt? :)
moritz_ bloonix: I don't know.. I think it's "pain in the ass" ;)
bloonix na so schlimm sind meine fragen auch nun wieder nicht :) 19:24
TimToady pain in the neck is slightly more polite :)
moritz_ ok ;)
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TimToady anyway, we don't mind pains around here, as long as they're nice pains 19:24
moritz_ I tend to be more direct than polite ;)
bloonix yes. I had pain enough the last weeks. brain pain :) 19:25
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DarkWolf84 I have a hadache too 19:26
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bloonix okay, bye then 19:26
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Linux\2 now we have it. the thoughtpolice is in 19:28
thoughtpolice fears 19:30
Linux\2 fears the fear
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renormalist Did anyone try to use the new 5.9.5 features of defining subrules in regexes with (?(DEFINE)...) ? I thought it might be a nice equivalent to Perl6's rules but I'm not successful in using it. So did anyone already use 5.9.5 advanced regexes? 20:28
s/subrules/subpatterns/ when speaking of 5.9.5 20:29
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DarkWolf84 now I got it, cptures can be used as args pattern 20:38
captures* 20:44
uf
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