pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, elf: etc.) (or perl6: for all) | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by Tene on 29 July 2008.
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Limbic_Region heh 00:00
have you seen it?
TimToady there's little about the Female Brain that cannot be explained by having to keep 5 kids from being eaten simultaneously with feeding them
nope, just shooting my mouth off, as usual 00:01
the Male Brain, on the other hand, had better concentrate on one Wooly Mammoth at a time 00:02
Limbic_Region when I was in high school, my non-fiction to fiction ratio was about 10:1 but it is now a lot closer to 3:1
TimToady most of my non-fiction is magazines these days 00:03
Limbic_Region recently finished reading a fantasy book by Raymond Feist
rakudo_svn r31046 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Switch us over to using Perl6MultiSub for all user-generated code (so this excludes operators, but includes any code that users write). All tests that passed before continue to pass. This patch includes several changes that we may want to revisit. (1) Hack in ACCEPTS
..so Any always type-checks against anything other than Junction and Object type-checks against anything, whether or not they actually inherit from it. (2) Test.pm gets Object rather than Any on its multis; this may or may not be the Right Thing. (3) Because Parrot doesn't yet give us a way to
..type-map MultiSub, and because we're not using .HLL yet anyway, we need to do a workaround in a block's loadinit.
TimToady Currently reading Pirate Freedom by Gene Wolfe
before that, Jhegalla by Steven Brust 00:04
before that, the Tough Guide to Fantasy, arguably non-fiction :) 00:05
(by Diana Wynne Jones) 00:06
but the more fantasy you've read, the funnier the book is
Limbic_Region will have to look it up 00:07
I am not much of a fiction fan but I was cautioned to balance my diet in that regard
I really am not into sci-fi - I have read a few of Asimov's foundation series 00:08
I like children's fantasy mostly
s/children/young adult/children/
TimToady well, Bujold is still my favorite author, and she's a bit hard to classify, even when writing "sci-fi" or "fantasy" 00:12
she really tends to write somewhere at the intersection of romance and anthropological fiction 00:13
well, generally closer to the latter 00:14
Limbic_Region well, I would have to say that Feist is my favorite author in the Fantasy genre but that's probably because I haven't sampled more than 2 or 3 other authors
TimToady I am not familiar with Feist 00:15
Limbic_Region Riftwar Saga is probably his best known series 00:16
I read a trilogy by Jude Fisher but wasn't impressed 00:19
TimToady anyway, I just don't know anyone who's better at mixing levity with gravity than Bujold
Limbic_Region I have already bookmarked
TimToady if you want other recommendations, my wife knows the field and can usually predict what else you'd like from what you've liked so far
especially if you can figure out why you liked it 00:20
or why you didn't like the other stuff :) 00:21
Limbic_Region is she Gloria at your surname or should I email you to pass on?
TimToady got it in one
and she'd be delighted to advise you 00:22
Limbic_Region my wife seems to enjoy the same fantasy books as me which is great since we don't have any other genres in common
so having a wider variety would be greate 00:23
will send an email some time soonish
TimToady Bujold falls into the category of book that we read out loud to each other
Limbic_Region ah, what it would be like not to have young kids around </jealousy>
TimToady but she reads pretty much anything except horror
well, some of Bujold we don't read to kids until they grow up :) 00:24
Limbic_Region I read "The Bad Place" by Dean Koontz back in 7th or 8th grade and I thought it was good but never read anything else from him
of course, that wasn't much of a horror which apparently he went on to write 00:25
TimToady 'bout to start in with Lewis and my son-in-law Sean, who (with Geneva) are staying with us
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Limbic_Region I just loaned a 10 year old The Magician's Nephew 00:25
as well as A Wrinkle In Time and Bridge To Terebithia
TimToady don't know that last one
Limbic_Region told her if she liked them I had more 00:26
They recently made it into a Hollywood Movie
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Limbic_Region en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_to_Ter...ia_(novel) 00:26
lambdabot Title: Bridge to Terabithia (novel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TimToady but when I think of a Wrinkle in Time, I think of all these little Python programmers coming out of their identical houses and bouncing their balls in unison. :)
Limbic_Region heh 00:27
mncharity hi all
Limbic_Region laughs
salutations mncharity
mncharity TimToady: it seems the current gimme5 of 'say 3' doesn't seem to include "say" in the resulting AST?
Limbic_Region halts the book conversation for something a bit more on topic 00:28
mncharity thinks "not on my account I hope..."
TimToady most tokens are not named 00:29
they're implicit in the _from/_to
when you say gimme5, do you mean STD? 00:30
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mncharity I see a term 'say(3)' with sym identifier and args. nothing saying 0-3. 00:31
re STD, yes. 00:32
TimToady yes, it doesn't appear to capture that at the moment 00:33
though one node has the 0 and another node has the 3 for the beginning of the args
but it's not generating an AST yet in any case, just a parse tree 00:34
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mncharity The second thing I noticed trying to get STD_blue and elf to 'say 3' was that the match nodes don't record what rules generated them. So one is in hairy guessing land. "well, my parent called me "foo" (and my grandparent called my parent "bar"), and I've a field "zig" but no field "zog", so I hypothesize I'm a match for rule X branch Q". explicit tagging makes life so much easier. 00:36
TimToady oh, I see what happened. I snarfed off the identifier into $i so I could feed it to another routine, so it didn't capture under $<identifier>
mncharity re AST vs parse tree, sigh, nomenclature. I meant "the output of gimme5/STD.pm currently makes it non-trivial to pick out the identifier name 'say' when parsing 'say 3'. 00:37
re $i, *nod* 00:38
TimToady the problem with labelling nodes with rules is that you have to deal with derived grammars and such, if you want a complete name, and the derived grammars are often, in fact, anonymous
but it'd be easy to tag with a short name of some sort 00:39
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TimToady you just might not know which grammar's version of that rule matched 00:39
mncharity that would be great. 00:40
TimToady and I didn't want to put hard links all over the place because that slows yaml way down
and, by and large, when I wanted to deal with context, I used a context var. :) 00:42
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TimToady and also, presumably some of this processing would be done by reduction closures in a real grammar to make real AST nodes 00:43
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TimToady that's what parrot does, anyway, and it seems to work for them 00:44
[particle] reduce, reuse, recycle. that's our motto!
TimToady still working on duce, use, cycle first... 00:45
mncharity re reduction closures... sigh... I still haven't seen a good story for combining actions with grammars. mixing actions into grammars is a major maintenance problem, and severely interferes with grammar extensibility and repurposing. 00:47
TimToady that's why we have {*} stubs 00:48
so we can keep the actions out of the grammar
mncharity yare put the (post-match) actions in separate methods in the grammar, linked by a naming convention. so grammar and actions could evolve separately.
re {*}, nod. 00:49
but for Grammar's in general, my impression is we are still in need of a better story. 00:50
TimToady being called to dinner & 00:51
mncharity oh, btw, third observation - the current gimme5/STD provides rx:P5/a+b.../ rx literals as unparsed strings. It would be nice to have a p5 re grammar too.
re dinner, ok, thx.
TimToady yes, need to do same thing I did for internal rx/ :P5 a+b.../ 00:52
which does parse as p5 regex
(as of a few days ago)
the external :P5 is just a fossil
see P5Regex class 00:53
decommuting &
mncharity ah, interesting. 00:55
pugs_svn r22233 | putter++ | [elf] Permit easier replacement of the AST->IR step. 01:01
r22233 | putter++ | Also misc additions. run-tests.result updated, but unexamined.
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pugs_svn r22234 | putter++ | [STD_blue] Set up for development. 01:05
r22234 | putter++ | STD_blue_run now parses for an elf_g derivative.
r22234 | putter++ | -e 'say 3' is close to working.
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pugs_svn r22235 | putter++ | [rx_on_re] Continued refactoring yare's Regexp_ModuleA, towards creating 01:20
r22235 | putter++ | elf's rx/re IR nodes and analysis, and p5 runtime engine.
r22235 | putter++ | One t_baseline.result case was changed from "Match failed" to compilation
r22235 | putter++ | failure. It was a "we are completely incapable of handling this" case, and
r22235 | putter++ | thus only a change of symptom.
mncharity I was without net connectivity for a bit, and elf was one of the few things I could work on. :) 01:22
g'night all.
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s1n moritz_: you're killin me 02:17
anyone have any idea what's up with the ====='s in the spectest_regression? 02:31
makes it damn annoying to log the test to a file 02:32
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s1n hello, anyone alive? 03:01
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ewilhelm sin ==== in the test output? 03:20
is that the parallel progress bar?
I think moritz_ was enabling that with jobs=3, so you need jobs=1 ? 03:23
meppl good night
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s1n ewilhelm: i'm not using a jobs value 03:27
and yes it's in test output 03:28
it's running the test with "--jobs" only
ewilhelm sin, yeah I saw that in the patch, but not sure why it is just --jobs 03:29
updating my svn now...
s1n ewilhelm: do you know what revision he added that?
ewilhelm last 48 hrs? 03:30
s1n heh, that's a ton of commits
did he commit to parrot or pugs? 03:31
ewilhelm parrot 30985
ewilhelm hopes they put make ... JOBS=n support in that, but apparently not 03:33
s1n ewilhelm: looking at patching this now 03:35
ewilhelm s1n, yeah, you need something like this in MAKEFILE: 03:37
TEST_JOBS = 3
HARNESS_WITH_FUDGE_JOBS = $(HARNESS_WITH_FUDGE) --jobs $(TEST_JOBS)
s1n ewilhelm: yeah, that's what i was thinking
ewilhelm then you can make spectest_regression TEST_JOBS=1
have to put that in root.in though IIRC 03:38
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s1n anyone good at writing makefiles? 03:49
or shell scripting for that matter 03:50
ewilhelm s1n, what's the question? 03:51
s1n i'm trying to write a test for a variable definition 03:52
ewilhelm for TEST_JOBS? 03:53
s1n yeah
ewilhelm I think don't - t/harness has a Getopt::Long spec of :3
s1n if [ ! $TEST_JOBS ] ; then TEST_JOBS=1 fi
ewilhelm which is why '--jobs ' with no arg is working
s1n yeah but i'm trying to make it so the user can specify the number of jobs 03:54
i.e. we may not all want the default
ewilhelm well, I said it should be one, but take that up with moritz and schwern 03:55
but I think you can just put the var in and it will be either nil or not 03:56
s1n well, i just want to have this test for TEST_JOBS define
ewilhelm the defined-or is in the perl code already in t/harness 03:57
patch in a sec... 03:58
s1n wait
i'm looking to add this to the makefile, what are you doing?
ewilhelm scratchcomputing.com/tmp/root.in.patch
just that. so `make spectest_regression TEST_JOBS=1` and `make spectest_regression` both work 03:59
s1n ewilhelm: okay, but if TEST_JOBS is not defined, will --jobs= still work? 04:00
ewilhelm that is, without TEST_JOBS defined, you get 3 via the Getopt spec it t/harness
s1n oh, it defaults in the harness...
ok
ewilhelm right
s1n you or i want to submit this patch (i lack commit access) 04:01
ewilhelm not that I think that's a sensible default for the first roll-out, but at least it should have a knob! right?
moritz_, ping?
s1n, I guess I will parrotbug it
s1n ewilhelm: it's better than what's currently there
i could parrotbug it for you if you want 04:02
ewilhelm or is it rakudobug ?
s1n well, does all of parrot default to 3?
ewilhelm s1n, ok, I leave the patch in your hands
parrot default=1
s1n then it's a rakudobug, where does parrot set that? 04:03
ewilhelm it's got no global setting because long painful story
parrot's default is in $parrot/t/harness 04:04
s1n $ENV{TEST_JOBS} || 1 04:05
ewilhelm and just reads the $ENV{TEST_JOBS} directly
yeah
s1n why does that not work with rakudo?
ewilhelm because /me was only a backseat driver on schwern's patch?
rakudo_svn r31049 | tene++ | [rakudo] 04:06
r31049 | tene++ | * First draft of gather/take
s1n okay but how does rakudo overwrite that?
i.e. where does the 3 come from?
ahh, it does actually use it
ewilhelm everyone has their own t/harness 04:07
so in perl6/t/harness you have the GetOptions ... 'jobs:3'
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s1n ewilhelm: okay, doing the TEST_JOBS thing seems to work best 04:14
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pmurias ruoso: hi 08:03
ruoso: what do you think of putting contexts of till they are fully specced and using item context everywhere for now?
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pmurias ruoso: actually i would go for having only item rw and item ro contexts for now :($ is rw) and :($ is ro) 09:20
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masak perl6: my $b := &say; $b(5) 10:29
p6eval elf 22235: OUTPUT[/home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:141:in `block in to_dump0': undefined method `to_dump0' for true:TrueClass (NoMethodError)␤ from /home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:140:in `each'␤ from 10:30
../home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.r...
..pugs, rakudo 31066: OUTPUT[5␤]
masak perl6: my &b := &say; b(5)
p6eval elf 22235: OUTPUT[/home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:141:in `block in to_dump0': undefined method `to_dump0' for true:TrueClass (NoMethodError)␤ from /home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:140:in `each'␤ from
../home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.r...
..pugs, rakudo 31066: OUTPUT[5␤]
masak perl6: my &b := &say; &b(5)
p6eval rakudo 31066: OUTPUT[Lexical 'b' not found␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_13:16)␤]
..elf 22235: OUTPUT[/home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:141:in `block in to_dump0': undefined method `to_dump0' for true:TrueClass (NoMethodError)␤ from /home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:140:in `each'␤ from
../home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.r...
..pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
masak that last one, is it supposed to work (as it does in Pugs)?
I find nothing in the synopses about this. 10:31
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masak also, should this work? 10:34
perl6: sub a(&b) { &b(5) }; a(&say)
p6eval rakudo 31066: OUTPUT[invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤current instr.: 'a' pc 145 (EVAL_15:67)␤]
..elf 22235: OUTPUT[/home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:141:in `block in to_dump0': undefined method `to_dump0' for true:TrueClass (NoMethodError)␤ from /home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.rb:140:in `each'␤ from
../home/evalenv/pugs/misc/elf/elf_f_src/STD_red/match.r...
..pugs: OUTPUT[5␤]
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masak if I don't declare an attribute as "is rw", it should still be changeable from within methods in the class itself, right? 10:56
perl6: class A { has %.h; method a() { %.h = {}; } }; A.new.a 10:57
p6eval rakudo 31067: OUTPUT[Cannot morph a Perl6Scalar.␤current instr.: 'parrot;A;a' pc 215 (EVAL_14:87)␤] 10:58
..pugs: RESULT[\()]
..elf 22235: OUTPUT[Can't locate object method "h_h" via package "A" at (eval 117) line 7.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
masak Pugs++ # you and I think alike today
Tene I should be able to resolve your function questions up there after I get some sleep 11:01
masak sounds good.
Tene As long as someone bugs me about it. Maybe make a paste and leave a msg for me with purl in #parrot? 11:02
g'night masak. thanks for all your work on testing. :) 11:03
masak Tene: g'night. my pleasure.
masak makes the paste
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ruoso pmurias, that is not possible, because several objects already behave differently depending on context... 11:12
specially the iterators...
pmurias i worried that will get dragged into something contradicting the spec 11:16
how does rakudo implement context? 11:26
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c9s_ 11:33 [ allbery_b ] [ cls_bsd ] [ Helios- ] [ LCamel ] [ pjcj ] [ sri_work_ ] 11:37
oops
pmurias hash context is specced a bit contradictorily it both evaluates the next expression in list context and in hash context
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pmurias ruoso: where should i but wrapper function required for using smop from haskell via FFI? 13:44
i'm thinking of smop_haskell_ffi.c 13:45
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rindolf Hi all. 16:10
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masak hiya rindolf, 16:24
rindolf Hi masak 16:25
masak: what's up?
masak rindolf: hacking on november.
rindolf masak: what is November?
masak it's a wiki engine 16:26
www.november-wiki.org/
lambdabot Title: Main_Page
masak github.com/viklund/november/ 16:27
lambdabot Title: viklund's november at master — GitHub
masak it's fun, because it makes me want to exercise Rakudo in complicated ways
...which is good both for me and Rakudo :) 16:28
today I've been wanting to send methods as parameters to other classes, but I find I can't yet
Juerd masak: I like your long use.perl writeup
masak Juerd: the Good/Cool/Awesome/Bad/Ugly/Weird one? 16:29
thanks!
Juerd Yes, that one
masak it's especially gratifying to update it with things that get fixed, now that jonathan++ is back from his vacation 16:30
seems that Ugly bugs get fixed first :) 16:31
gotta go home and make my room habitable again -- see you! 16:32
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s1n pmichaud: ping 22:32
when doing radix numbers of the notation :\d(...) 22:35
does the radix number itself have to be in decimal form? 22:36
can the radix number in fact be a number in radix notation?
i.e. is ::2<10><111> eval out to 7 (decimal)? 22:37
the spec doesn't say
TimToady the radix is always decimal 22:38
s1n TimToady: can the <...> bits be in radix form? 22:39
i.e. is it possible to nest a radix notation?
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TimToady only the functional form 22:41
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s1n what do you mean? 22:41
TimToady so :16("0b1001001") is legal, but not :16<0b1001001>
s1n why, what's the difference? 22:42
TimToady the first is a function call
you could be passing :16($x)
the second is just a quote form
s1n so with the functional form eval the bits seperately?
first the quotes, then the radix :16(..)? 22:43
TimToady :16(...) is a function call
:16<...> isn't
the argument to a function call can be any expression
s1n so you can't use :16(), it has to be <> or []?
TimToady use it for what? 22:44
s1n for the radix notation
TimToady literal or functional?
s1n heh, i'm dense, what's the difference?
TimToady it's like the difference between 42 and x(42) 22:45
the literal provides a value that is known at compile time
:16($x) isn't known at compile time
s1n is <> and [] the literal case? 22:46
TimToady yes
though inside [] is an expression too, so maybe just <>
s1n okay, that answers my question then
hmm, how is the [] an expression? 22:47
TimToady actually :16("0b100") is illegal anyway, if you mean binary
since since 0b is legal hex
s1n well, lets just cover the <> case, this is literal and will be interpreted as the radix value following the colon 22:48
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s1n i.e. :16<10> evals to 16 22:48
TimToady yes
s1n okay, what about []? 22:49
what is :16[10]?
TimToady same as :16<a> 22:50
s1n so the [] is literal? 22:51
TimToady no
it encloses a list
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s1n hmm 22:51
TimToady that's what [] usually does in subscript position
s1n okay, i'll need to talk that case over with pmichaud
TimToady and adverbial syntax is parsed as subscripts are
s1n what about :16(10)?
non-literal? 22:52
TimToady bad programming
s1n heh
is it remotely legal?
TimToady it would convert 10 to a string, then use that as hexadecimal
s1n i see a reference to something similar in s02-literals
hmm
TimToady in fact, the test suite used to have those brainos in it
s1n okay, i'll work on the <> case and come back to the other cases 22:53
TimToady radix.t already tests a lot of htose
*those
s1n can you have something like :16<1_1> 22:54
TimToady I believe so
yes, STD allows it
line 1765
s1n how do i read that? 22:55
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pugs_svn r22236 | lwall++ | [STD] missing some capture brackets 23:08
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s1n TimToady: so is :2<1a> valid? 23:31
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TimToady syntactically, yes, but it will be rejected in semantic analysis 23:37
specifically, in radcalc(), which is currently commented out
cognominal TimToady, what class H::A { } ; say H::A.WHAT should print?
in Parrot, it prints "A" 23:38
s1n TimToady: okay, so it's syntactically legal, and it evals to 12 (decimal)?
cognominal I expect "H::A"
s1n cognominal: how far up the ancestry would you go before stopping? 23:39
cognominal sln, I don't understand. H::A has no ancestor 23:40
s1n cognominal: H has no parent?
whatsoever?
cognominal I probably don't understand namespace. for me H::A is a class, H is just a namespace that contains the class A, so its name is H::A 23:42
s1n H has to be in a namespace of some form, either a subclass, or another namespace, such as Object is the top-most parent in Java 23:44
cognominal so I would expect class H::A { } class H::B is H::A { } to work but it does not.
I get Attempt to inherit from non-existent parent class 23:45
s1n class H::B is H::A { } should be something like H::A::B?
well, does H exist? is it being treated like a namespace or a class name?
sounds like class name
cognominal I don't see how it is different form perl5 23:46
s1n perl5 just treated those like packages, how is perl6 specced? packages or classes? 23:47
i.e. perl5 would have treated H like a package/namespace
sounds like what you're seeing is treating H like a class, which you have not defined
cognominal classes are some special sort of namespace.
s1n try defining H first, see if it works
well, in perl5 they were 23:48
cognominal I am not treating H as a class.
s1n you aren't but what does the spec say?
23:51 braceta joined
cognominal my reading of S10 and S11 seem to confirm wht I think 23:51
embedded classes relies on an altogether different mechanism 23:52
s1n i don't know what you mean by that but Bool::True is an example and i'm unsure how it's actually treating it 23:54
did you try creating class H { }?
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cognominal no. I don't know what that would mean 23:55
s1n i see it referring to SUPER::, which indicates classname...
cognominal pugs: class H::A { } ; say H::A.WHAT 23:58
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[H::A␤] 23:59
cognominal perl6: class H::A { } ; say H::A.WHAT
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[H::A␤]
..elf 22236: OUTPUT[STRING␤]
..rakudo 31096: OUTPUT[A␤]
23:59 wknight8111 left

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