pugscode.org/ planetsix.perl.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: perl6: say 3; (or rakudo:, pugs:, elf:, etc) | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | ~340 days 'til Xmas
Set by mncharity on 16 January 2009.
ruoso hmm... $i++ isn't a postfix 00:01
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ruoso std makes ++$i and $i++ different then =$i 00:05
which solves part of the mistery
and maybe solves it all 00:06
prefix, postfix and postcircumfix are unary
and can, therefore, be seen as methods
infix is binary (or have list associativity
therefore needs to be seen as a sub 00:07
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ruoso does it make sense? 00:07
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ruoso just had a blackout in his neighborhood, but as the modem is in a no-break, he has internet, but no light... cool 00:12
ruoso later &
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TimToady @tell ruoso they're all multi subs, including the unaries, except the .fooish ones; this is so the language is in charge of the meaning of operators, not the object 02:03
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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chrisdolan rakudo: my Int $n = +"1"; 02:55
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16793 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
shinobi-cl hi..... anyone knows where can i find info about reading binary files? (seek, and that kind of stuff) 02:56
chrisdolan That's surprising to me. But if I say "Num" instead of "Int", it's OK.
Is that a Rakudo limitation or have I misunderstood numification? 02:57
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pugs_svn r24995 | putter++ | [elfparse] New std.pm layout (pods instead of commenting) to simplify staying in sync with STD.pm. 03:33
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alester_ nslookup git.petdance.com 05:38
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pugs_svn r24996 | moritz++ | [t/spec] don't pick 'tempfile' as file name, we might be bitten by race 07:17
r24996 | moritz++ | conditions.
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moritz_ chrisdolan: I think it's a bug 07:22
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jhuni rakudo: say; 08:38
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 1, near ";"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
jhuni rakudo: my Scalar $x = 512; $x.WHAT.say; 08:39
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
jhuni pugs: my Scalar $x = 512; $x.WHAT.say; 08:40
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Int␤»
moritz_ pugs doesn't do type enforcements at all
pugs: my Int $x = [1, 2]; say $x.perl
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\\(1, 2)␤»
moritz_ obviously that should die
jhuni ya 08:41
I just noticed
moritz_ and since Scalar is a container type, 'my Scalar $x' doesn't really make sense 08:42
'my $x is Scalar' should work, though
jhuni What is wrong with the rakudo version? 08:43
moritz_ I guess that the type Scalar isn't implemented
which leads to a weird mis-parse
rakudo: eval 'my Scalar $x'; say $! 08:44
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in ␤»
jhuni I don't know what that means 08:45
moritz_ I guess that should give a nicer error message instead, for example 'No type name Scalar'
std: my UnknownTypName $x; say $x.WHAT
p6eval std 24996: OUTPUT«Unknown routines:␤ UnknownTypName called at 1 ␤ my called at 1 ␤00:06 87m␤» 08:46
jhuni That is better
moritz_ afk 08:47
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Matt-W Morning 08:52
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viklund masak: hey 09:17
masak viklund: aloha
do we dare announce the upgrade here? :) 09:18
viklund thinks so 09:19
masak ok.
moritz_ looks at the page - cool!
masak the page in question is november-wiki.org
it's a bit slow... 09:20
...but worth waiting for.
moritz_ "Perl 5 was my rewrite of Perl. I want Perl 6 to be the community's rewrite of Perl and of the community." — Larry Wall
that — could use some fixing
masak indeed.
I'm surprised the tests don't catch that.
investigating. 09:21
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Matt-W So november-wiki.org is running on November on Rakudo? Cool! 09:32
masak we like to think so, yes. 09:33
khatar :)
Matt-W That's great
khatar using mod_parrot ?
masak khatar: no, not yet.
Matt-W I assume those * under "Why use Perl 6" should have been rendered as a <ul>, but I know it's not perfect
masak we're planning to deploy it on mod_perl6
khatar ok
masak Matt-W: checking.
Matt-W: oh. yes. 09:34
hopefully get that fixed within the week.
Matt-W Excellent
masak we aim to please.
Matt-W I'd say I'd take a look at it, but I've not got time for the next few days
masak Matt-W: no worries. it'll be there for you when you have the time. 09:35
Matt-W In a concert on Sunday so I've got to spend a moderately excessive amount of time rehearsing
Music's a lot like software, that last bit of polish seems to take all the time... 09:36
masak :) 09:38
moritz_ another software + music geek 09:39
Matt-W There are a lot of us
khatar masak, is november based on a wiki grammar or a classical tons of regex approach
Matt-W Seems to work somehow
khatar ?
masak khatar: neither, in fact.
khatar ok :)
masak khatar: I do use a grammar, but only for tokenizing.
khatar: see my blog posts from last year. 09:40
this one especially: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/37988 09:41
jnthn morning!
khatar thx
masak jnthn: dobru... morning!
jnthn masak: "dobre rano" 09:42
masak hahah, "rano" :)
that's "frog" in Esperanto.
jnthn nice!
moritz_ jnthn: your blog post is so last year... *SCNR* 09:43
erm, I meant masak
sorry
masak moritz_: it is. I've since moved on. :P
nowadays I'm mostly doing 3D work in abstract board games.
moritz_ you program abstract board games? 09:44
jnthn masak: Seems the bullet points on the november wiki page don't render?
masak moritz_: I program Druid.
jnthn masak: But full marks for the pretty picture at the top of the page!
masak jnthn: I'm about to fix the bullet points.
jnthn: thanks!
looks count. 09:45
jnthn masak: Is it running under mod_perl6?
viklund masak: do we have any tests for the bullet-points?
jnthn: no, not yet
masak jnthn: no.
viklund: no.
I don't seem to have implemented that yet. 09:46
shouldn't be too hard.
Matt-W masak: that post about your tokeniser has just given me the solution to a problem of my own!
masak just one snag: a contiguous set of <li> paragraphs need to be post-processed to have an <ul> around them.
jnthn masak: Ah. When it can be, that should get a speed-up. As it is, it's not awefully slow. :-)
masak Matt-W: I'll send you the invoice. :P 09:47
Matt-W masak: you can have a picture of a banknote
masak jnthn: I think caching by the application itself might help in the short term.
the markup parser currently sucks up a lot of load time.
jnthn sub render is cached { ... } # ;-) 09:48
moritz_ can we conditionally load modules already?
masak jnthn: I wish.
jnthn masak: It's spec'd. ;-)
masak jnthn: oh :) 09:49
but not implemented, I take it? 09:51
rakudo: sub foo($n) is cached { for ^1e6 {} }; say time; foo(7); say time; foo(7); say time 09:53
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«1232618023.5415␤»
masak rakudo: sub foo($n) is cached { for ^1e4 {} }; say time; foo(7); say time; foo(7); say time 09:54
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«1232618053.33669␤1232618055.60139␤1232618058.60821␤»
masak not implemented, then.
jnthn: but it will not work anyway before we start using mod_perl6 or equivalent... 09:55
jnthn masak: Not implemented, no. 09:56
moritz_: On those sometimes-failing tests - I haven't been running them in parallel. 10:05
So that's probably why.
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masak (use MONKEY_PATCHING)++ 10:16
how many other languages have that, I ask? :)
moritz_ maybe we should propose it for LOLCODE 10:18
masak shudders
moritz_ but first we'd have to mis-spell it
masak I AM IN UR CLASS PATCHING UR MONKIS 10:19
moritz_ s/I AM/IM/
masak oops, yes of course. 10:20
jnthn IM A CLASS Cat EXTENDIN UR Animal 10:21
Not sure lolcode even has OO syntax...yet.
masak brainfuck can do OO, so why not LOLCODE? 10:22
jnthn Parametric roles for LOLCODE? ;-)
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moritz_ perhaps CLAZ instead of CLASS? :-) 10:27
masak ooh, classy. 10:28
moritz_ jnthn: parametric roles for lolcode would give us a certain advantage over other implementors :-)
masak IMA CLAZ Cat EXTENDIN UR Animal
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moritz_ IMA CLAZ Animal ... GOAWAY 10:30
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jnthn moritz_: Maybe in another few months...when my brainz can take it again. :-) 10:39
masak jnthn: oh, you're finished with parametric roles?
jnthn: what's next?
jnthn masak: I'm not 100% there, but mostly. 10:40
masak is not 100% there, either
:)
moritz_ rakudo: my Int @x = (1, "2"); say @x.perl
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«get_iter() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 54 (EVAL_17:39)␤»
jnthn Yeah but I was talking about the parametric roles. ;-)
masak jnthn: I know. :)
moritz_ rakudo: my @x = (1, "2"); say @x.perl
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«[1, "2"]␤»
masak what was that first error? 10:41
rakudobug material?
jnthn Basically, the remaining task is to make Array and Hash (well, Mapping and List) into roles.
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jnthn I guess postcircumfix:[ ] is gonna be one too. 10:41
Thing is, I really don't want to hand-role parametric roles in PIR.
moritz_ masak: typed arrays are a TODO feature...
masak: so I don't think a bug report is appropriate 10:42
jnthn So I'm waiting for Perl 6 prelude until this.
masak moritz_: fair enough.
moritz_ masak: but chrisdolan posted an example of another bug earlier
Matt-W jnthn: I believe there's still a ticket on making @.someattribute[*-1] work
(hint hint)
masak oh yes. that one.
jnthn Once we have that, Array and Hash can become the parametric roles, and then it'll be a small bit of work to make typed arrays and hashes. 10:43
That said, I might now get my Int @x is MyArray { } sorta working.
masak
.oO( in MY day, we had neither array attributes nor whatever indexing... and we were happy )
jnthn So I can prototype it all in there.
moritz_ masak: can you submit the 'my Int $x = +"2"' bug please?
masak submits
jnthn rakudo: my Int $x = +"2"; 10:44
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16793 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
masak rakudo: my Int $x = +'2'
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16793 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
jnthn rakudo: say WHAT +"2";
p6eval rakudo 35875: OUTPUT«Num␤»
jnthn meh.
That's why.
moritz_ it should be a bit smarter
masak moritz_: + numifies.
it doesn't intify.
jnthn masak: I know, but it's not the most helpful behavior... 10:45
masak true.
jnthn Well, the most dwim anyway.
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moritz_ masak: right. But since Int conforms to the Num type, it's more DWIM if it does int directly, where appropriate 10:46
rakudo: my Int $x = int "2";
p6eval rakudo 35876: RESULT«2»
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masak right. 10:47
jnthn moritz_: Int ~~ Num, but not Num ~~ Int.
moritz_ jnthn: that's what I meant :-))
jnthn :-)
masak that's how I understood you.
jnthn looks at his Hague grant task list 10:48
moritz_ that looks visually similar to "Huge task list" somehow :-)
masak haha
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jnthn moritz_: It used to be, but with auto-threading, type registry, parametric roles, the 'of' keyword (apart from on subs), submethods and most of the 'handles' trait verb all done now, it's a lot smaller... 10:49
masak jnthn++ 10:50
jnthn is optimistic of finishing his grant on time 10:51
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ruoso TimToady, does that mean that $foo{$bar} actually calls "multi postcircumfix:<{ }>($foo, $bar)" ? 10:55
that was unexpected.. 10:56
moritz_ I'd also expect a method, because methods don't have to be exported into every package 10:57
jnthn $foo.postcircumfix:<{ }>($bar) # is what I thought... 10:58
ruoso that actually causes a circularity problem in the bootstrap 11:02
because a multi must receive the postcircumfix:<( )> call
and if postcircumfix:<( )> is a multi
how do you call it on a multi? 11:03
I was assuming that for every postcircumfix operator, actually
as well as every prefix and postfix, with less certain
(actually with some certain, after I found out that ++$i and $i++ are not prefix and postfix 11:04
masak they're not? 11:07
ruoso std parses them specially
masak because of the lvalue thing?
ruoso because it actually replaces the value inside $i
masak right. 11:08
that's what I meant.
rakudo_svn r35878 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Remove unused @?PACKAGE and $?NS (we init the first and never use it, then use the second but never init it, thus I guess it was useless). 11:10
ruoso jnthn, does rakudo implements prefix:<=> already? is it a multi sub or a method?
jnthn ruoso: checking 11:11
ruoso: multi sub
ruoso hmm 11:12
I was guessing it would be
a mehtod
jnthn why?
ruoso because it's an unary 11:13
the same way as postcircumfix
jnthn Hmm 11:14
But S13 shows things like
multi prefix:<~> is deep {...}
That's the only unary example I can ee in S13 unless I'm missing something though. :-| 11:15
pugs_svn r24997 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Rename nested.t for roles to crony.t, to reflect what it's actually testing. 11:17
ruoso jnthn, I don't understand the 'is deep' in S13 at all 11:18
jnthn ruoso: I wasn't really showing it for the is deep
More that it shows a unary operator being declared as a multi sub.
ruoso I know...
jnthn Not a multi method.
ruoso but in fact... 11:19
it only shows that example to show it is a bad example
that must mean something
;)
jnthn I guess for unary ops, multi-dispatch is rather less useful. 11:20
So it's not really a hardship if they're methods.
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ruoso jnthn, so... let's lobby with TimToady so he changes his mind? :) 11:33
jnthn ruoso: Is it actually a problem if they are multis?
There's something to be said for consistency...
ruoso well, current scheme seems inconsistent 11:34
postcircumfix are methods (in S13)
what's the fundamental difference between postcircumfix and prefix and postfix?
but there is a fundamental difference between them and infix
jnthn, but the bigger problem is that returning an Iterator for a list 11:35
my $iterator = =@list
is supposed to return something that is private to the list
sorry, that line was wrong 11:36
my $item = =@list
jnthn Hmm, yes.
But of course, you could write it as a multi-method *and* export it.
ruoso which looks like 99% of the cases 11:37
so, why not making it just a method?
jnthn But it still leaves the inconsistency with postcircumfix...
ruoso it is already going to be dispatched based on the type of one object
that looks like a method
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jnthn Aye. 11:38
Well, TimToady's call really. :-)
The reasoning whichever way he calls it, will be interesting.
But yes, method makes sense to me too. 11:39
mberends jnthn, could I bug you to try to fix $*ERR ? RT#62540, I miss my debugging friend
pugs_svn r24998 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Roles on .WHAT should stringify to name, like classes do, rather than Role. 11:40
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jnthn mberends: Hmm. It's not obvious why it's broken... 11:46
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jnthn (As in, I can reproduce it. I just can't see why it's happening...) 11:46
masak mberends: oh, and a third thing: SVG.pm -- I'm working on it. slowly. might have something to show by the weekend. 11:47
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masak having SVG.pm will open up a vista of possibilities for Perl 6 web programming. 11:51
ruoso masak, why would anyone want a vista if there's the beta 7 already ;) ? ;) 11:53
masak ruoso: it was with some trepidation I used that word, yes.
it's a pity. used to be a positive word. 11:54
ruoso heh
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masak Microsoft is in decline. the only reason it hasn't fallen yet is because it's so huge. 11:55
ruoso just wait for it to get momentum
;)
masak one of my better decisions in the past decade is not waiting for Microsoft to do anything. 11:56
that way, I'm never disappointed. 11:57
jnthn moritz_: An easy one to close maybe ;-) rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=61978 11:59
rakudo_svn r35879 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] What's installed in the namespace for a role should probably act like a proto-object a bit more; this makes it stringify in the same kinda way. 12:00
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rakudo_svn r35881 | bernhard++ | [codingstd] trailing_space.t 12:10
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jnthn tests a patch that may clsoe many masakbugs 12:23
Well, 3 of 'em.
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mberends masak: sorry, afk for a while. looking forward to SVG.pm 12:27
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jnthn -> lunch 12:28
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rakudo_svn r35884 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Improve support for nested packages; gets the issues in various RT tickets resolved. 13:10
pugs_svn r24999 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Tests for nested classes. 13:12
r25000 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Tests for grammars nested in classes. 13:15
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Matt-W masak: SVG.pm being a library for generating SVG graphics? 13:31
masak Matt-W: a minimal version of the CPAN equivalent.
Matt-W: I already have semi-concrete plans for another module that uses SVG.pm but is much more DWIMmy. 13:32
Matt-W nice
I keep thinking, wouldn't it be cool if we had GTK bindings, but I'm not sure we're up to that yet :)
masak Matt-W: there's nothing stopping you from trying.
Matt-W just time
masak I've never ventured into that kind of programming. 13:33
Matt-W GObject Introspection does make the whole thing much easier
masak otherwise I might have attempted it also.
Matt-W In theory, you can generate the entire binding automatically
A simple one, anyway
I might try it one day
mberends very well done on november-wiki.org/ ! 13:34
masak gracias.
as they say, people don't react until you update the GUI :) 13:35
ruoso Matt-W, SMOP might be specially interesting to experiment with Glib, since it started with "representation polymorphism" as its core...
mberends plans to create a pod6 -> mediawiki translator
Matt-W ruoso: oh?
masak mberends: is there a pod6 -> plaintext translator? 13:36
mberends yes, in the current perl6-examples
ruoso Matt-W, you just need to implement a ResponderInterface for Glib objects, that implements Glib introspection
masak mberends: excellent. will play with it this weekend. 13:37
Matt-W ruoso: ooooh
ruoso: so it generates bindings at runtime?
ruoso Matt-W, it doesn't need to generate
it can just use it
in theory, a Glib responder interface would provide the needed introspection so that you could 13:38
my $x = Int.bless(Glib.CREATE, :value(1)); and you would have an Perl 6 Int as a Glib object 13:39
jnthn afk - slovak 13:41
moritz_ ruoso: and what is the 1 in your example? 13:43
ruoso a native int?
moritz_ perl6: say 1.WHAT 13:44
p6eval elf 25000, pugs, rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«Int␤»
masak they agree! \o/
moritz_ they all seem to think that 1 is an Int, not an int 13:45
SamB is a bit surprised that that parses
masak SamB: why?
SamB I'd have expected the . to be mistaken for part of the numeric literal
moritz_ SamB: it's actually quite hard to produce a snytax error in Perl 6 :-)
masak SamB: ah. no, it's special-cased.
ruoso moritz_, but it can be autoboxed into a native int while being bound in the signature 13:46
that considering
masak moritz_: unless you like to put spaces before parens and stuff.
ruoso role Int { has int $.value }
moritz_ masak: right
std: while (my $x = <STDIN>) { print } 13:47
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤This appears to be Perl 5 code at /tmp/m6RbkwCql6 line 1:␤------> while (my $x = <STDIN>) { print }␤ expecting whitespace␤00:04 71m␤»
moritz_ std: while (my $x = <STDIN> ) { print }
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤This appears to be Perl 5 code at /tmp/hAAHLy76Qy line 1:␤------> while (my $x = <STDIN> ) { print }␤ expecting whitespace␤00:05 71m␤»
moritz_ the "expecting whitespace" is a bit weird IMHO
masak aye.
SamB what's that
masak the rest is good. 13:48
SamB: coloring.
SamB eh ???
masak ANSI.
SamB oh, that's ESC
masak aye.
SamB why isn't it translated to mIRC format ?
moritz_ because nobody implemented it :-)
masak SamB: because you haven't implemented an ANSI->mIRC translator yet, silly :P
moritz_ SamB: patches welcome :) 13:49
afk
masak (but please don't belch mIRC colors into the #perl6 channels. that makes baby Jesus cry.)
it's bad enough with the ESC codes.
SamB but I heard he was all growed up
masak SamB: nevertheless. 13:50
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masak this .pick[0] thing -- could it also be solved by defining .pick as a multimethod? 15:08
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masak letting .pick() return an Any and .pick($n) return a List 15:09
since that seems to be an obvious solution, I suppose there's something wrong with it -- but I can't really see what.
moritz_ what's the problem? 15:11
masak moritz_: I don't know, but something made people in the know reach for a solution involving returning a Capture. 15:12
so I guess I'm also wondering what's the problem. 15:13
the obvious problem, of course, is the current behaviour of .pick() :)
(it returns a List of 1 element)
moritz_ if all List methods are in Any, there's no harm in returning a single item 15:14
masak right.
but there is sufficient harm in not doing it. 15:15
moritz_ it would be consistent, because <foo> is also a Str, not a List 15:17
masak indeed.
moritz_ rakudo: say list(1|2|3).WHAT 15:18
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«List␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say list(1|2|3).perl
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«[any(1, 2, 3)]␤»
masak rakudo: say <foo>.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«Str␤»
moritz_ rakudo: sub f(*@a) { @a }; say f(1|2|3).perl 15:19
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«[any(1, 2, 3)]␤»
moritz_ it's correct that slurpy args don't autothread
ruoso rakudo: my Float $x = +"1"; 15:20
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
moritz_ but should the junction flatten into a list? or remain as an item?
ruoso isn't there a Float?
moritz_ not in Rakudo
spack Float\b 15:21
ruoso what other type of Num there is, then
moritz_ spack: Float\b
what's the spec-ack command?
ruoso buubot, spack Float\b
buubot ruoso: Sorry, I couldn't find any matches for: Float\b
ruoso buubot, spack Float
buubot ruoso: Sorry, I couldn't find any matches for: Float
ruoso rakudo: my Rat $x = 1; 15:22
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
moritz_ I also did it on the command line => no match
ruoso buubot, spack Rat\b
buubot ruoso: S02-bits.pod:4 S03-operators.pod:4
ruoso does rakudo support any other type of Num? 15:23
moritz_ no.
Complex, Num, Int, no more numeric types (afaik) 15:24
ruoso ah.. it supports comples
complex
rakudo: my Complex $x = 1;
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16815 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 1i ~~ Complex 15:25
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak rakudo: say 1 ~~ Complex
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ ruoso: I think your example should autopromote to Complex
ruoso in Math, isn't Int a subset of the Complex numbers?
rakudo: my Complex $x = 1 + 2i; 15:26
moritz_ it is, but class relations aren't subset relations
p6eval rakudo 35888: RESULT«1+2i»
ruoso moritz_, that probably means the classes are miss-related then
moritz_ A isa B means "objects of A behave the same as B" 15:27
ruoso not at all
masak moritz_: well, almost.
ruoso A isa B means " A extends B"
where extends might mean replace behavior 15:28
moritz_ ruoso: we've known for long that our concept of classes doesn't fit well into the mathematical world (which bothers me)
Matt-W "A can be spoken to in the same way as B", I would think
moritz_ ruoso: "same" in a very liberal sense
Matt-W++ # much better phrasing
ruoso Matt-W, moritz_, that is what .does does
not .isa
Matt-W this is true, my definition doesn't require them to be part of the same inheritance tree 15:29
which isa generally does
ruoso that's the point
Matt-W because otherwise they could just be two things that implement the same role
ruoso 1 ~~ Complex should be true 15:30
as well as 1 ~~ Rat
and 1 ~~ Int
but 1.1 ~~ Int should be false
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Matt-W one would hope 1.1 !~ Int, yes :) 15:30
masak actually, I can't think of a good reason why 1 ~~ Complex shouldn't be true... 15:31
ruoso there isn't
because in the Math world
you have sets
and subsets
Int is a subset of Rat
and Rat is a subset of Complex
masak no, I meant besides that.
I don't necessarily buy into the subset idea of class hierarchies.
because objects have methods. 15:32
Matt-W it doesn't mean we should model the class heirarchy that way, but the numbers need to behave that way...
ruoso exactly...
masak Matt-W: yes, that's another good point.
ruoso including being able to call methods of complex in 1
masak ~~ doesn't need to behave like isa
ruoso it doesn't behave like isa at all
masak ruoso: I suggest you submit a rakudobug for '1 ~~ Complex' 15:33
and see what happens. :)
moritz_ rakudo: say 1 ~~ Num
p6eval rakudo 35888: OUTPUT«1␤»
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ruoso maybe this is all solved by "all built-ins are roles" 15:39
and then 1 is composed as does Int does Rat does Complex 15:40
Matt-W Maybe 15:41
moritz_ but is still of class Int, because that's what the user expects 15:42
Matt-W I'm envisaging horrible method collisions
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masak Matt-W: such as...? 15:42
Matt-W Well I don't know, do Int and Rat and Complex have any same methods? 15:43
infix:<+> perhaps?
moritz_ Matt-W: since I'm not an implementor in the strict sense, I'll leave that to those who have to worry about it :-)
Matt-W or is that a multi sub
moritz_ those are all multis
Matt-W ah k
so that should be okay then
masak multis solve all our problems :)
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Matt-W and we'd get ~~ for free 15:43
Is our multiple dispatch any different to the kind of thing C++ does with overloaded functions? 15:44
I keep thinking it is, but then I'm not sure how
moritz_ basically there's a multi infix:<+>(Any, Any) that coerces both args to Num, and any num type may provide more specialized multis
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moritz_ Matt-W: I think it's much more flexible, in many ways 15:45
Matt-W: iirc in C++ it's an error to call an overloaded function with an argument list that fits to two functions
whereas in Perl 6 the narrowest wins 15:46
PerlJam C++ doesn't really do multiple dispatch does it?
moritz_ PerlJam: no, it resolves at compile time
Matt-W C++ resolves the narrowest at compile time 15:48
I know Perl 6 does it at runtime, which does change things a bit
moritz_ it changes in so far as dispatch happens wrt actual type, not declared type 15:50
in C++ if foo() returns Any, Any is used to dispatch, even if the actual value is a Foo which inherits from Any
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Matt-W aaaah 15:56
yes, that's definitely requiring runtime resolution
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rakudo_svn r35891 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 294 files, 6500 passing, 11 failing 16:40
r35891 | pmichaud++ | Failure summary:
r35891 | pmichaud++ | S12-role/namespaced.t aborted 3 test(s)
r35891 | pmichaud++ | integration/99problems-21-to-30.rakudo aborted 8 test(s)
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ruoso moritz_, notice that now we have "multi infix:<+>(*@args)" instead 16:52
making it look more like lisp
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moritz_ has + list associativity? 16:58
ruoso all infex gained list associativity in a recent change in STD 16:59
pmurias ruoso: hi 17:00
ruoso hi pmurias
moritz_, that doesn't seem to have made to the specs yet, but TimToady was very happy with the idea
(and I'm happy too, actually)
pmurias, in use Foo:from<perl5>, you could make the p5 package available (as the p5 string) as the type in Perl 6 17:02
then you could simply call Foo.method
it's just making it bind
&Foo := sub { $P5Interpreter.eval("Foo") }; 17:03
Foo := $P5Interpreter.eval("Foo");
Foo:: := $P5Interpreter.eval("Foo");
(of course that can be simplified
pmurias would Foo:: work? 17:04
ruoso yes, Foo:: is how the packages are stored in mildew
they keep the sufix "::"
while the type doesn't have it
pmurias $Foo::bar would end up "Foo"->{'bar'} in perl5 land
ruoso right... that means it isn't so simple 17:05
but at least the other two should work
moritz_ ruoso: and what about infix:</> and infix:<**> and all the like?
where associativity actually matters?
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ruoso moritz_, I'm not 100% sure, maybe it's better to look at std source 17:06
moritz_, but I could say that the order of the arguments could make the difference 17:07
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pmurias ruoso: is class Foo {} defining &Foo actually specced somewhere? 17:08
ruoso pmurias, in STD... ;)
even Array.new is parsed as Array().new() 17:09
and Array is a type known by STD 17:10
pmichaud not all infix are list associative
at least, not according to STD.pm.
all list_infix are list associative.
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ruoso pmichaud, could you enumerate them? 17:11
pmichaud constant %multiplicative = (:prec<u=>, :assoc<left>, :assign);
constant %additive = (:prec<t=>, :assoc<left>, :assign);
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pmurias ruoso: you have seen all the is_types sprinkled around to forbid things such as Array 1,2,3? 17:13
ruoso pmurias, yes, but that doesn't include Array.new 17:14
pmurias TimToady: does class Foo {} declare a &Foo? 17:15
ruoso if you try to do Foo.new STD will warn about unknown Foo routine 17:16
and return a parse tree exactly equal as Array.new
pmichaud that's not what I see. 17:18
I.e., I don't see that Array is treated as a listop.
ruoso hm? 17:19
I tried to parse "Foo.new" and "Array.new"
and the result was considerably the same 17:20
pmichaud sure, they should be the same.
I'm saying that Array.new isn't the same as Array().new()
ruoso pmichaud, right... but blabs.blobs should work if blabs is a sub 17:21
pmichaud sure, in that case it's a listop.
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ruoso I've just outputted the parse tree for "Array.new" and "Fooey.new" 17:22
and ran a diff on the output of them
and the only difference is the actual text
pmichaud where Fooey is a bareword or it's also a class?
ruoso where STD complains it is an unknown routine 17:23
pmichaud I suspect a bug in STD.pm.
I haven't see anything to suggest that typenames are listops.
std: Array 1,2,3 17:24
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/SKEr7flaQB line 1:␤------> Array 1,2,3␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤ terminator␤00:05 85m␤»
ruoso that's a parse failure because STD knows Array is a type
std: Fooey 1,2,3 17:25
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«Unknown routines:␤ Fooey called at 0 ␤00:06 104m␤»
pmichaud sure, barewords are treated as listops.
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pmichaud std: xyz 1,2,3 17:25
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«Unknown routines:␤ xyz called at 0 ␤00:06 104m␤»
ruoso pmichaud, the reason I think it's not a bug in STD is that TimToady is aware of the way it is parsed... 17:27
this issue was raised before
pmichaud okay, I'll ask a different question: Why do you think that Array.new is equivalent to Array().new ?
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ruoso because it would require me to eventually make two lookups to tell what it is 17:29
so I make only one
pmichaud I don't understand.
"make two lookups"?
ruoso Array.new in mildew currently renders into
pmichaud we know at parse time if what we have is a type.
ruoso LexicalScope<&Array>.postcircumfix:<( )>().new()
pmichaud that sounds like a bug in mildew then. 17:30
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pmichaud it's entirely possible that an implementation could choose to do it that way, however. 17:32
haven't thought about it much.
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ruoso pmichaud, it allows me to make Array(Int) easily, tho 17:34
pmurias pmichaud: the main problem is "if class Foo {};say &Foo" works?
pmichaud I don't think that "class Foo" should define &Foo, no. 17:35
std: class Foo {}; say &Foo;
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«00:05 83m␤»
pmurias ruoso: we have to make a lookup at compile time to check if &Array is defined too
pmichaud I wonder if that means something other than &Foo.
[particle]1 just because that parses doesn't mean it'll find &Foo 17:36
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ruoso std: &Foo # will it issue a warning? 17:36
pmichaud ruoso: I can make Array(Int) easily also -- I just define a postcircumfix:<( )> on protoobjects.
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«00:05 87m␤»
pmichaud but postcircumfix on protoobjects is handled specially anyway 17:37
pmurias shouldn't Array(Int) be &Array.(Int)
?
s/be/be treated as/ 17:39
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rakudo_svn r35893 | coke++ | Revert add of Range.pick; while the no argument version here does better for 17:50
r35893 | coke++ | the simple case of (1..10000000).pick; it fails to handle other variants, causing
r35893 | coke++ | spec test regressions.
mberends please could someone explain this Rakudo message: Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'PGE;Match'
pmichaud what were you doing that generated it? 17:51
moritz_ shouldn't PGE;Match be hidden from the user these days? 17:52
pmichaud moritz_: it's a parrot error message.
within rakudo they're known as "Match", but Parrot generates the 'method not found' messages so it uses the internal type name.
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pmichaud alas, I have to leave for a while -- bbiaw 17:53
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mberends within Pod::Parser from perl6-examples, not able to pinpoint the line because $*ERR is broken. Probably a $string ~~ / <Grammar::regex> / test, or passing the $/ from that as a method parameter. 17:54
TimToady Type() is a special form, it is not a function call 17:55
likewise Type{}, in fact, they're somewhat related
moritz_ std: my UnknownType $x;
p6eval std 25000: OUTPUT«Unknown routines:␤ UnknownType called at 1 ␤ my called at 1 ␤00:05 85m␤» 17:56
TimToady hmm, that's an interesting buglet
moritz_ that could be much more helpful ;-)
TimToady probably from backtracking too aggresively 17:57
let's see. not all infix are list assoc, as pmichaud pointed out
all non methodcall operators are multi in the abstract, but the optimizer can know at compile time what the list of candidates is 17:58
therefore if the candidates are known to implement in terms of a method, the method can just be called directly 17:59
and at the moment I'm thinking that the '.' of .foo is an abstract multi call to the dispatcher, and the 'foo' is an argument to that dispatcher
but that will certainly want to get optimized away whenever possible 18:00
likewise it will be rare for a language to override any postcircumfix multi, so most of those disappear
but if a lexical scope *does* override postcircumfix:<{ }>, we have to respect the new language 18:01
pugs_svn r25001 | pmurias++ | [mildew] 18:02
r25001 | pmurias++ | prefix:<=> is a method call
r25001 | pmurias++ | accessor have a correct signature
r25001 | pmurias++ | fixed AST::If.pretty
r25001 | pmurias++ | [Multi.pm]
r25001 | pmurias++ | &ROUTINE.back.lexical is traversed if exists
r25001 | pmurias++ | we don't overwrite a named param
r25001 | pmurias++ | changed @variables to $variables
TimToady ahem. prefix:<=> is *not* a method call 18:03
++ and -- are also multi, just on an lvalue, not an rvalue
pmurias: see discussion above 18:04
pmurias seen it after commiting
TimToady :) 18:05
ruoso TimToady, you're just breaking my legs
;)
pmurias mildew doesn't implement multis yet so we can safely optimize prefix:<=> to a method call ;)
TimToady heh
ruoso SMOP is too much object oriented for we to think about dot as a multi 18:06
pmurias maybe SMOP should have been multi oriented from the start... 18:07
ruoso yeah... let's throw it away and restart it ;)
ruoso needs to think how that will change the state of things... 18:12
ruoso later &
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TimToady ruoso: note you already have to be able to handle ."$foo" as a kind of argument to the '.' dispatcher 18:14
moritz_ perl6: class A is Str { method b ($x) { say "{self}:$x" } }; my $y = A.new; b($y: 'foo'); 18:19
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«<obj:A>:foo␤» 18:20
..elf 25001: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::infix_58_58 called at (eval 126) line 11.␤ at ./elf_h line 4333␤»
..rakudo 35894: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "($y: 'foo'"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
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pmurias TimToady: the method call opcode takes the method name from a register in smop 18:20
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TimToady so semantically the "." is already a separate notion 18:26
the question is whether we allow a lexical scope to override the meaning of ".'
moritz_ perl6: sub f ($x as Str) { say $x.WHAT }; f(2)
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "as"␤ expecting "?", "!", trait, "=", default value, "-->" or ")"␤ at /tmp/qSmmPVmqet line 1, column 11␤»
..elf 25001: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/g8S06O31Bx␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: sub f ($x as Str) { say $x.WHA␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_r...
..rakudo 35894: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 1, near "as Str) { "␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
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TimToady arguably . .* .? etc are all different dispatcher operators 18:27
pmurias it wouldn't be very hard to handle overwriting on the compiler level 18:30
TimToady well, that's throwing the control knob the other way completely 18:32
but multi dispatch gives a way to finesse overriding on a type basis
so some types might use the overridden . while others use the base .
and again, if there is no multi override, the compiler knows this, and can optimize the multi dispatch away entirely 18:33
this is why we no longer look for multi defs in any package 18:34
only in lexical scopes
(including outer preludey scopes)
if you want to increase the dynamism of multi dispatch to include run-time-modifiable packages, that would have to be a lexically scoped pragma 18:35
which then calls the pessimizer on your code :)
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moritz_ std: sub f(:@a) { @a } 18:52
p6eval std 25001: OUTPUT«00:05 84m␤»
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moritz_ perl6: sub f(:@a) { say @a.WHAT }; f(:a<b c>); 19:03
p6eval rakudo 35894: OUTPUT«Array␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«Array::Const␤»
..elf 25001: OUTPUT«Can't locate object method "b" via package "c" (perhaps you forgot to load "c"?) at (eval 122) line 5.␤ at ./elf_h line 4333␤»
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ruoso TimToady, pmurias, I think I'll leave unary ops override to be implemented after compiler bootstrap 20:35
so, for starts, mildew presumes there is no multi override for the unary ops 20:36
even after we implement multi 20:41
ruoso later & 20:57
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Eaglexx Good evening to all User ;-) 21:17
mberends howdy Eaglexx, wotcha doin' with perl6? 21:18
21:18 Eaglexx left
mberends somethin' I said? 21:19
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meppl good night 22:09
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moritz_ perl6: say eval q[my $x = 3; END { $x *= 4 }; $x]; 22:52
p6eval pugs, rakudo 35896: OUTPUT«3␤»
..elf 25001: OUTPUT«Unknown rule: statement_control:END␤It needs to be added to ast_handlers.␤ at ./elf_h line 2036␤»
moritz_ how do I test the availability of lexicals in an END block if I can't use outer lexicals? 22:53
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mberends pmichaud: ping 22:59
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pugs_svn r25002 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test that outer lexicals are visible in END { .. } blocks 23:03
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moritz_ rakudo: say eval 'my $x = 3; END { 2 * $x }' 23:08
p6eval rakudo 35896: OUTPUT«_block37␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (eval 'my $x = 3; END { 2 * $x }').() 23:09
p6eval rakudo 35896: OUTPUT«6␤»
moritz_ pugs: say eval 'my $x = 3; END { 2 * $x }'
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«3␤»
rakudo_svn r35898 | moritz++ | [rakudo] add tests for RT #62260 (outer lexicals in END) to t/spectest.data 23:10
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pugs_svn r25003 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge @.a[*-1] tests for rakudo 23:12
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