perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by mncharity on 25 March 2009.
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eternaleye Is there an infix junctive operator for 'none'? I know there's & => 'all', | => 'any', ^ => 'one', but is there something like ! => 'none'? 01:41
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skids eternaleye: I do not believe so. 01:53
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eternaleye perl6: multi infix:<!>( *@list ) is precedence('q=') is assoc('list') { return none( @list ); }; say (1 ! 2 ! 3).perl 02:11
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(1 ! 2 ! 3)␤»
..rakudo 266557: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near "infix:<!>("␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
..elf 26354: OUTPUT«No viable candidate for call to multimethod infix__33(#,#) at (eval 127) line 8␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
eternaleye perl6: multi infix:<!>( *@list ) is precedence('q=') is assoc('list') { return none( @list ); }; say (1 ! 2 ! 3)
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«none(VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3)␤»
..rakudo 266557: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near "infix:<!>("␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
..elf 26354: OUTPUT«No viable candidate for call to multimethod infix__33(#,#) at (eval 126) line 8␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
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azawawi hello 06:00
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moritz_ good localtime 06:09
azawawi hi moritz_ 06:11
moritz_: it is time to have proper p6 syntax highlighting now... im going through the trees :) 06:12
moritz_ what do you mean? 06:13
azawawi moritz_: in S:H:P6 we used to hack our way; now im going to go more specific a bit 06:14
moritz_ azawawi: you can use .chunks on the match objects now 06:15
azawawi moritz_: in STD or rakudo? 06:16
moritz_ azawawi: both
azawawi moritz_: any docs on .chunks? 06:17
moritz_ azawawi: though the one in rakudo is a wee bit broken wrt the keys, but that shouldn't stop you
azawawi: S05
azawawi moritz: szabgab also told me about the p6 highlighting hack he recently made to Padre::Plugin::Perl6 06:18
moritz_: using rakudo
moritz_:padre.perlide.org/changeset/4000 06:19
moritz_: it is not perfect though
moritz_: how can we make all of S29 and S32 more function documentation index-friendly? :) 06:21
moritz_: smart-tags?
moritz_ azawawi: first of all by generating HTML from the Pod
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azawawi moritz_: i used to index =item function-name and then assume the rest is its documentation in S29 06:22
moritz_: but now functions are in S29 and S32 06:23
moritz_: for help on functions and tooltips in Padre...
pugs_svn r26355 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] updated to jquery-1.3.2 06:34
dalek kudo: fd0a4d5 | (Stephen Weeks)++ | src/builtins/control.pir:
Use load_lang opcode for eval with :lang
 06:37
pugs_svn r26356 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version is now 0.042. Latest STD in included. 06:41
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pugs_svn r26357 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] Ignore *.store files 06:44
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pugs_svn r26358 | leto++ | Additional tests for log10() of a Complex 06:59
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Matt-W Morning 07:16
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dukeleto morning' 07:38
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jeremiah_ Congrats to masak and hinrik for their SoC project! 09:04
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moritz_ indeed 09:08
and to tewk and allison 09:09
and darbelo and cotto
and pmurias and ruoso
cotto yay!
now the fun part begins
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moritz_ fun++ 09:13
if you need any mathematical expertise for that project, feel free to ask (though I doubt that you'll need it) 09:14
cotto probably not, but I'll remember that you offered 09:17
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jeremiah_ Yes - congratulations to all. 09:29
I only have met masak in RL so that is why I started out with him. :)
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moritz_ the only Perl 6 developer that I met in RL is jnthn 09:31
:/ 09:32
jeremiah_ moritz_: You mean "Thunderously apoplectic" jnthn? 09:33
heh
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arnsholt Any of you guys planning on participating in the Perl Iron Man blogging contest? 10:15
jnthn got back home safely at 2am...crashed on his bed...and didn't wake up until mid-day! 10:16
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azawawi hello 10:17
jnthn arnsholt: I blog about once a week anyway, so may well submit mine... 10:18
arnsholt Heh. Decided on a title and colour yet? =) 10:20
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pugs_svn r26359 | masak++ | [S05] typo: removed extra 'returned' 10:32
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alanhaggai is away: gone fishing. 10:56
moritz_ dukeleto: t/spec/S32-num/log.rakudo, Parse errors: Bad plan. You planned 29 tests but ran 27. - do you have anything to do with that? 11:12
dalek kudo: d0a5de5 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | src/setting/Match.pm:
Match.perl: work around RT #64952
 11:15
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mikehh t/spec/S32-num/log.rakudo - Failed 2/29 subtests (less 4 skipped subtests: 23 okay) - and the same message as mottitz 11:44
s/mottitz/moritz_/ 11:45
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pugs_svn r26360 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix rakudo fudging of log.t; simplify a test 11:49
moritz_ dukeleto: when you add tests that make rakudo die, you have to #?rakudo skip them, not just 'todo'
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mikehh moritz_ how do you get the rakudo test to try without re-running the whole test suite - I did a make testable and then? 11:59
moritz_ mikehh: make t/spec/S32-num/log.t 12:01
pmichaud -good morning, #perl6
moritz_ good localtime() pmichaud 12:03
jnthn hi, pmichaud 12:04
Hope your trip home went fine?
mikehh moritz_: good that works then - the spectests now pass - rakudo (fd0a4d5) on parrot r38266
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mikehh Kubuntu Intrepid Amd64 12:04
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pnu rakudo: class N { method Num { return 41 } }; say N.new + 1; 12:08
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«42␤»
pnu oh, i must have old version..
cool
mikehh moritz_: how come log10 of complex unit (i) is ok but not log10 complex in general? 12:09
moritz_ rakudo: say log10(1i) 12:11
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ that's wrong.
rakudo: say log(1i)
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«0+1.5708i␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say log(1i)/log(10)
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«0+0.682188i␤»
moritz_ that's the correct result
but a log10 of a complex number is a really weird beast, I don't know what you ever need that for 12:12
pmichaud trip home was fine, last flight was delayed 2hrs, and I ended up sitting next to the iPod from hell.
however, the oslo->newwark trip was _very_ nice, I ended up with an entire row of seats to myself, _and_ a powerport. :-) 12:13
jnthn "I PLAYS MY TECHNO SO LOUD!!!"
Oh, nice!
Mine was fine...though didn't make the train home from Wien - Bratislava that I'd hoped, so was home by 2am instead of 1am. But no biggie. 12:14
Slept until mid-day today though!
pmichaud good sitghtseeing in Oslo? 12:15
*sightseeing 12:16
ruoso @tell pmurias I know why it's breaking when the refcount is on... nagc really can only be used in the msot basic types, it shouldn't be used when the DESTROY call recurses, we need an additional gc that is able to handle recursing in the interpreter... just as lowlevel.sm0p did...
lambdabot Consider it noted.
pmichaud I now have a patch that blesses regexes into the Regex class... but it depends on a change to Parrot, so it'll have to go in after the release. 12:18
moritz_ pmichaud: you can always push it to a branch, if you want testing
fridim_ Outch, Camelia is really horrible oO 12:19
jnthn Weather in Oslo was gorgeous...went to see the royal palace, which I'd not seen before, and then hung around by the sea for quite a while...had ice cream, enjoyed the sun and fresh air. :-)
Ooh, very happy you've done that patch! 12:20
pmichaud afk, taking kids to school 12:23
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Matt-W jnthn: That sounds wonderful 12:27
pnu rakudo: class B { method Str { return 'xxx' } }; say B.new;
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«xxx␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class B { method Str { return 'xxx' } }; say B 12:28
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«B␤»
pnu i just upgraded my rakudo and it segfaults for this..
rakudo: class X { method Str { return 'x' } }; say 'y' ~ X 12:31
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«yX␤»
pnu rakudo: class X { method Str { return 'x' } }; say 'y' ~ X.new 12:32
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«yx␤»
pnu First one say "Could not find non-existent sub y" on my machine. 12:33
moritz_ pnu: are you using perl6 -e '...' ?
pnu The second one "Could not find non-existent sub x"
yep.
moritz_ pnu: then you can't use single quotes inside -e '...'
pnu oh no, i made that same mistake again.. 12:34
that was strange behaviour indeed. :-/ sorry, my bad.
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pnu rakudo: class B { method Bool { return Bool::False } }; if B.new { say 'true' } 12:49
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«true␤»
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moritz_ rakudo: class B { method true { return Bool::False } }; if B.new { 12:50
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 1, near ""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class B { method true { return Bool::False } }; if B.new { say 'true' }
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: class B { method true { return Bool::False } }; say (?B.new).perl 12:51
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
pnu ok, i should call that method "true" not "Bool"? 12:53
moritz_ yes. 12:54
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pmichaud Yes, the handling of booleans (and their relationships) isn't entirely clear. 12:59
jnthn Last I knew, we needed to do something like role Bool::True { method true { 1 } }; role Bool::False { method true { 0 } } 13:01
And True and False are just aliases to these. 13:02
pmichaud ...but then how do we have a Bool type?
jnthn Oh, gah, yes. :-|
pmichaud i.e., Bool::True ~~ Bool ?
jnthn oh
role Bool { method true { ... } }
role Bool::True does Bool { method true { 1 } } 13:03
etc
Would cut it.
I *think*.
pmichaud is there a .Bool method?
(in Object)
moritz_ that's not clear to me 13:04
jnthn Not sure, but if there is then it's a coercion...
Like Str etc
pmichaud right. But then which "wins"... .true or .Bool ?
i.e., if I override .Bool but don't override .true
jnthn I think we can say, .Bool gives you something that is ~~ Bool
Whereas .true gives you some "native" unboxed value. 13:05
pmichaud and prefix:<?> always uses .true ?
Matt-W This makes my head hurt 13:06
jnthn That may work.
pmichaud same here -- I've asked several times before but not gotten clean answers :-|
Matt-W I always thought Bool would be a simple matter
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Matt-W I guess it's not so much about 'true' as 'do you think you are true' 13:06
jnthn Basically the best I managed to get this down to, was that True and False are roles that have a true method.
pmichaud so overriding .Bool would change the way that something coerces to a Bool, but wouldn't affect testing for boolean-ness or prefix;<?>
jnthn I guess .Bool should by default call .true, which by default tests .defined 13:07
Or something like that...
pmichaud that seems confusing to me.
jnthn Same
Matt-W and so most of the time you would override .true for custom types
which might trip a lot of people
pmichaud It seems confusing to me that overriding .Str will affect prefix:<~>, but overriding .Bool doesn't affect prefix:<?>
jnthn True and False want to be roles that override true though, last I knew.
pmichaud otoh, there's another related confusion.
jnthn Though maybe they need to override .Bool also.
pmichaud if I override .Int (but not .Num), how does that affect numification ? 13:08
moritz_ and isn't it .int now?
Matt-W I suppose it depends what it's numifying to...
moritz_ because int as a prefix is gone
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pmichaud and yes, perhaps it's .int now 13:09
jnthn int and Int ain't the same thing.
Matt-W absolutely not
moritz_ another thing that I thought about late last night... how do I say how to coerce to a parametric type?
Matt-W I think a lot of programmers would assume that overriding .Bool would alter the behaviour of prefix<?> appropriately 13:10
jnthn Foo[P1, P2](...)
moritz_ I mean method Array[Int] { ... } isn't valid syntax, is it?
std: method Array[Int] { [1] }
p6eval std 26360: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed method at /tmp/6jBHt8UPev line 1:␤------> method Array[Int] { [1] }␤ expecting any of:␤ blockoid␤ method_def␤ terminator␤ trait␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 34m␤»
jnthn phone
Matt-W moritz_: always have to ask the hard questions... 13:11
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wayland76 Matt-W: jnthn escaped at the right time then :) 13:13
moritz_ Matt-W: I started off with simple questions :-) 13:14
pmichaud Do we still want/need the 'quotemeta' method in S32-setting-library/Str.pod ?
pnu Matt-W: yes, that's exactly what i assumed too.. I'm trying to define coersion to Bool.
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Matt-W I would have thought ? would do return self.Bool, but it seems my understanding of the very nature of true and false is wrong 13:15
moritz_ pmichaud: it's not useful for regexes anymore, but I've seen it used for user stuff some times (although very seldom) 13:16
IMHO we could rip it out
pmichaud Matt-W: It's just that the spec has gone through many revisions and has never had this particular aspect re-unified.
moritz_ it's as simple as .subst(/\W/, { "\\$/"}, :g)
pmichaud yes, but I was going to eliminate the [A-Z...] part 13:17
(because it's obviously wrong)
Matt-W pmichaud: yeah, so we get to melt our brains out trying to do that :)
pmichaud personally I think I'd like to see .true defined in terms of .Bool
moritz_ pmichaud: maybe TimToady needs it for his p5 -> p6 translation plans
like p5=> 13:18
pmichaud moritz_: that's possible. But then it should probably be p5quotemeta or export(:P5) or somesuch
Personally, it looks like a p5-thinko to me. 13:19
Even the regex isn't p6.
(hasn't been that way since 2004.) 13:20
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moritz_ then rip it out 13:21
pugs_svn r26361 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fixed a bug in adhoc_signature 13:23
r26361 | pmurias++ | added tests for lexical scope,adhoc_signature and scalar
r26361 | pmurias++ | the lexical scope tests uncover a refcounting bug
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pmurias ruoso: hi 13:25
lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
jnthn pmichaud: How are we doing for a name for the release?
It's for sure I'm giving a talk about Rakudo at Bratislava.pm tomorrow ;-)
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Matt-W Perhaps it should be called Bratislava, in order to get them to buy jnthn lots of beer 13:27
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ruoso hi pmurias 13:28
moritz_ we obviously need more support from various .pm groups 13:29
PerlJam good morrow #perl6 13:31
Matt-W oh
patmat hello :)
Matt-W discovers there's a Nottingham.pm
...only the site's down
PerlJam Seems to me that there's a good fund raising/marketing opportunity with rakudo release naming 13:32
Matt-W quite possibly 13:33
PerlJam The PM that gets chosen is like "king for the month" (until the next release)
Matt-W also an incentive to get Rakudo 1.0 out before we run out of names
moritz_ there are more than enough .pm groups out there 13:34
more than 100, for sure
I hope we'll get 1.0 (or 6.0) out before 2017
pnu rakudo: prompt 'broken' 13:36
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«brokenMethod 'readline' not found for invocant of class 'IO'␤current instr.: 'prompt' pc 21935 (src/builtins/io.pir:166)␤»
moritz_ that was me, I fear
should be s/readline/get/ in IO.prompt 13:37
literal when does rakudo have releases? once a month? 13:38
PerlJam literal: yep
literal ok
PerlJam right after the parrot releases
pmichaud jnthn: I haven't reviewed all of the suggestions I've received, but thus far I think Bratislava is in the lead. 13:39
PerlJam votes for Bratislava too then
:)
pmichaud I think TimToady suggested 2014 :-)
moritz_ it's a realistic goal, I think
pmichaud Stockholm is high on my list also.
moritz_ although it's likely very usable much earlier
PerlJam Why 2014? 13:40
pmichaud Because that's how long it took Tolkein for LOTR
PerlJam ah.
pmichaud anyway, unless anyone has any reason for holding it, I'll probably do the release later today instead of waiting until tomorrow. 13:41
hanekomu i heard that at npw as well, and my tolkien fandom time was long ago, but didn't he take over twenty years to publish lotr after the hobbit?
PerlJam I was trying to come up with some formula for perl6's incubation period based on previous perls
hanekomu istr that the hobbit was in the 30s; lotr was 50s, no?
hanekomu checks
PerlJam hanekomu: I didn't think any of them were published until after the war
hanekomu Hobbit 1937 13:42
moritz_ well, Perl 6 was announced... when? 2001?
hanekomu LotR 1954-55
so ok
17 years
pmichaud 2000, I think.
hanekomu see, i just bought you 3 years
moritz_ :-)
pmichaud hanekomu: Perhaps, but TimToady did say 2014. 13:43
Personally, I'd like to shoot for something much sooner than that :-)
moritz_ IMHO concurrency and pluggable object models are a large unknown factor
PerlJam 2010 would be a good year 13:44
moritz_ who can tell how long it will take to implement threads, events and STM?
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pmichaud We're rapidly whittling away the unknowns, however. :-) 13:44
moritz_ portable IO will also take some time
PerlJam moritz_: it just has to be portable *enough* for the first release :) 13:45
pugs_svn r26362 | pmichaud++ | [spec]: Clean up 'quotemeta' in Str.pod, add some questions/comments.
moritz_ I don't think that what parrot has right now is close to what Perl 6 needs.
pmichaud moritz_: perhaps, but we can always write our own stuff in Parrot.
That _is_ one of its advantage -- we can add "core" capabilities without having to construct an entire VM.
so if Parrot's built-in IO PMCs don't do what we want, we can create our own. 13:46
moritz_ pmichaud: yes, I know. But it still needs to be done
which is my entire point
same with concurrency
and Unicode string levels
and module versioning 13:47
pmichaud rakudo: my %h = 1..6; say %h.exists('1');
p6eval rakudo d0a5de: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ I don't what to be a pessimist, but all of those could mean lots of work
pmichaud but the work parallelizes much better than it used to, also. 13:48
yes, they are still lots of work.
moritz_ onto as many hackers as we have
which isn't a huge number at the moment
moritz_ is a bit gloomy today 13:49
pmichaud moritz_: yes, but you didn't see the number of people playing with rakudo at the hackathon :-)
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pmichaud It was.... gratifying. 13:49
Especially compared with what we had at the Frozen Perl workshop in February (more) 13:50
moritz_ pmichaud: I can imagine, yes. And I've noticed a host of new names in here
which is of course a good thing
Matt-W When's the next exciting gathering?
pmichaud the major difference being between Feb and Apr being that it's now far easier to get a working Rakudo today than it was then.
Matt-W: the next gathering on my calendar is YAPC::NA, June.
Matt-W Sounds expensive
moritz_ and that NPW was very Perl 6 centric
Matt-W Crossing the Atlantic isn't cheap :( 13:51
pmichaud There's a Parrot/Perl 6 workshop scheduled for the two days prior to YAPC::NA
The next european gathering that I'm likely to attend (if I'm able to attend is YAPC::EU)
Matt-W woohoo
pmichaud That's in Lisbon.
I'm submitting talks in the expectation that somehow I'll be able to go.
Matt-W :)
hope you can
pmichaud (talk submissions are due by Apr 30, for those who are thinking of such things) 13:52
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ascent_ Is there anything what could be done by someone who knows Perl5, C (but without any language-development background) and doesn't have time to get into Parrot (looks like complicated) ? 13:53
moritz_ ascent_: yes, I've written a TODO for our build system
let me find that link...
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moritz_ ascent_: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=64868 13:54
you can also start to learn Perl 6, and write tests
alester ping pmichaud
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Matt-W August in Lisbon 13:54
ouch
Maybe I can go :) 13:55
moritz_ hot?
pmichaud alester: pong
alester Have you looked at the patch mailing stuff in git?
Matt-W moritz_: I suspect so
pmichaud alester: briefly
alester I sent in my first git patch last night, and it's pretty butt-simple.
Matt-W moritz_: I'm not good with hot 13:56
PerlJam alester: what did you patch?
pmichaud alester: Where did you send the patch?
moritz_ alester: are you talking about the mail-patch branch?
alester let me find it.
It was a patch to git.
A 2-parter: www.spinics.net/lists/git/msg101458.html and www.spinics.net/lists/git/msg101457.html 13:58
pmichaud alester: if you could make a bullet list of the steps you used to create the patch, that would be useful. We could try it out.
alester Do you have a git source distro?
It's all in Documentation/SubmittingPatches
pmichaud no, I don't have a git source. Surely it's available online somewhere, though :-) 13:59
alester maybe I'll gratutiously patch something in Rakudo
Now, I'm not sure what you do with it on your end to maintain all the state info that's in it. 14:00
pmichaud I think I can figure that out. At this stage the important thing is that it be easy to review.
alester yeah, and I think you'll agree it is.
The 1/2 and 2/2, it did automatically for me.
so it's one file per
pmichaud were these short patches to begin with? Would we still want someone to squash multiple commits together? 14:01
alester Probably.
You want to have logically-combined commits.
pmichaud right.
ascent_ moritz_: I'll look into build system. Where I can find Perl6 tests? 14:02
alester OK, lemme see what i can do here.
pnu coersion to numberic context calls always method Num, even if Int would be sufficient and method Int defined? 14:03
moritz_ ascent_: in the pugs repo in t/, svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/
ascent_ moritz_: oh, I've looked at rakudo and parrot. :)
pmichaud pnu: See the discussion earlier -- we're not sure how Int and Num play with numification.
moritz_ ascent_: rakudo's 'make spectest' imports the important part of these tests 14:04
alester rebuilds his rakudo install, untouched for weeks. 14:05
dalek kudo: 04ee8d0 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 374 files, 10467 passing, 0 failing
 14:06
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ruoso pmurias, hi again 14:11
cspencer good morning!
PerlJam the download link from github ... does that give you a tarball of the latest repo or of a release? 14:14
pmichaud latest repo, if done on trunk. 14:15
PerlJam Or ... how does one obtain releases? www.rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo doesn't seem to mention it.
pmichaud seems like we need to improve that. Currently I'm just uploading them to my server and publishing them there. 14:16
We don't yet have an official place for them.
alester CPAN for now?
pmichaud I thought about doing CPAN, but someone would probably need to walk me through the pieces needed to set that up.
alester You've never uploaded to CPAN? 14:17
pmichaud Only Parrot.
alester Then it should be same.
What are you thinking would be different?
pmichaud well, it's different because Parrot was already set up with wahtever metainformation CPAN needs.
Rakudo doesn't hae that.
alester I don't think we care.
pmichaud surely the indexer cares. 14:18
alester We're just using CPAN for distribution, not the meta indexing hoohah.
pmichaud ah.
I know we had to deal with indexing in the Parrot uploads, though.
alester OK, I don't know about that.
But I bet that if we just use it as distro, it won't matter.
"Here, go download rakudo-14.tar.gz"
14:20 pmurias left
pmichaud oh, hey! GitHub has a "upload" section in its downloads. 14:20
alester Well, tehre we go.
pmichaud Maybe I can upload the tarballs into the rakudo repository directly.
alester Prob'ly we should be hanging out in #github, huh?
pmichaud Perhaps. I tend to get too many channels open as it is, though :-)
alester So what's a few more? :-) 14:21
pmichaud Right now I need to be hanging out at lunch, so I'm going to do that.
I'll look at uploading the tarballs in a bit.
Matt-W mmm lunch
alester lunch?
What tz are you in?
pmichaud back in good old cdt
alester How long you been workin'?
pmichaud but my stomach is still in europe, I think. 14:22
alester By my clock, it's 0921
pmichaud it's also worth noting that github has the snapshots of the releases at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/downloads
they aren't exactly the same as the tarballs I've been creating... but then perhaps they don't need to be.
anyway, I'll try that later. Having them on github sounds like it could be very useful. 14:23
afk, lunch.
14:30 nihiliad joined
PerlJam In any case ... perhaps someone could update rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo to point at github's download section? That seems to track anything that's been tagged, so as long as releases are tagged it tracks releases. 14:30
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masak greetings, paradise camels. 14:43
cspencer masak: salutations
masak tips hat
moritz_ PerlJam: why don't you do it?
PerlJam I don't think I have access.
moritz_ PerlJam: then get access by pestering alester 14:44
alester or if you don't want to do it, tell me what it shouldsay
masak arnsholt: I'll be doing the Iron Man thing. 14:45
Matt-W hi masak
masak jeremiah_: thank you! really looking forward to being a mentor.
Matt-W: top of the day, sir.
PerlJam alester: I don't know what it should say, but give me access and I'll figure it out and write it :) 14:46
alester Tell ya what.
PerlJam alester: I'm perlpilot on rakduo.org
alester Figure it out and I'll give you access. :-)
cspencer moritz_: ping 14:53
moritz_ cspencer: pong
cspencer moritz_: regarding your comments on the trig sub -> setting patch (i can't remember if i'd asked you about this), should i go ahead and apply that? 14:54
you'd had some concerns about it not being correct for Int types in the future, once the export issue was fixed...
PerlJam alester: okay, I think I've figured out what to say. 14:55
moritz_ cspencer: IMHO yes. If you want to make sure you don't break anything, wait until after tomorrow's release
alester ok
cspencer also, is there a better way to share functionality between Int and Num rather that sticking stuff in Any?
s/that/than/
moritz_ it's not just Int and Num, it's that sin("3.14") should work 14:56
so it needs to go into Any, as much as we may hate that
cspencer ah, right of course 14:57
hmmm.
14:57 Eimi joined
alester ok, you can edit the pages now, PerlJam 14:58
PerlJam alester: danke
alester What's the RT queue email address. 14:59
moritz_ [email@hidden.address]
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dukeleto moritz: oops, I sent a patch to rakudobug that makes the log.t test pass. I didn't run the unmodified code through the new tests to make sure they got properly fudged. /facepalm 15:12
moritz_ dukeleto: happens to the best of us 15:15
dukeleto moritz: i will make sure to in the future 15:16
jnthn pmichaud: Bratislava.pm will also hold a celebratory opekačka if we get the release named after us. ;-) 15:21
Oh, someone just proposed getting drunk on Thursday in support of it too.
15:22 antone joined
antone hello all 15:22
masak antone: hello. 15:23
antone: so, have you tried Perl 6 yet? :)
antone just got my first try of rakudo to build and felt like celebrating :-)
masak \o/
moritz_ rakudo: say 'try me out now! ;-)'
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«try me out now! ;-)␤»
15:24 hercynium joined
antone will do 15:24
dukeleto antone: congrats 15:25
antone it actually runs too .-) 15:27
yay 15:28
masak time to start writing that awesome Perl 6 code, then.
antone where would one go to find the latest docs ? 15:29
moritz_ perl6-projects.org/
antone ty
moritz_ it has links to all kinds of stuff
including docs
and specification
alester OK, I've submitted two patches with the git format-patch and git send-email. 15:30
antone and svg butterflies, nice
masak moritz_++ # perl6-projects
15:31 pmurias joined
moritz_ alester: git send-email is suboptimal, because RT swallows the header, thus making the meta information unavailable to the reviewer 15:31
pmurias ruoso: hi again
alester I also sent it to the mailing list.
moritz_ good
alester which is prob'ly how we want to do be doin' that. 15:32
moritz_ that's why (among other things) I started the mail-patch branch
alester I don't know what that is.
15:32 rblasch left
moritz_ a script that automates the mail sending 15:32
alester a branch on rakudo or on git?
moritz_ on rakudo 15:33
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PerlJam moritz_: so ... is it written in perl 6? :) 15:33
moritz_ PerlJam: not quite, off by 1
pmichaud One would want to be able to report bugs about a broken perl6 w/o having to try to use that broken perl6. :-) 15:34
masak bah, excuses. :)
how often do we submit bugs that go "the bug reporting facility is broken"? :)
PerlJam masak: selection bias. 15:35
masak steps back and looks at his faulty reasoning
PerlJam (or I guess it's more like rejection bias :)
masak aye.
15:35 Eimi left
literal notes that Perl 5's perlbug(1) is written in Perl 5 15:36
moritz_ literal++
though it might be a *bit* more stable than Rakudo
literal hehe
pmurias ruoso: we could deal with the recoursion/DESTROYALL problem by making DESTROYALL take care of free'ing the object
ascent_ moritz_: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display...l?id=64868 - 2 is needed? If you'll get new checkout of rakudo, then you do perl Configure.pl first and you'll get died by Configure.pl. 15:37
pmichaud okay, time for me to review release name candidates.
moritz_ ascent_: you'll either have a parrot installed, or run Configure.pl with --gen-parrot 15:38
(s/installed/available/)
pmichaud (RT #64868) -- there's already a check for the Makefile being out of date. I agree that it would be good to check if the Parrot being used is out of date also.
A good first approximation would be to have the Makefile target also depend on build/PARROT_REVISION 15:39
ascent_ moritz_: already done 1 and 3. Cannot reproduce 4, looks like fixed.
pmichaud so that if that file changes, we do a check against Parrot
any changes to build/Makefile.in, build/PARROT_REVISION, or the Parrot executable itself probably should imply the need for a make realclean and re-configure. 15:40
moritz_ ascent_: seems like, yes
pmichaud #4 is going to change altogether anyway -- the dynpmc.pl script will be going away. 15:41
moritz_ pmichaud: in what time frame? 15:46
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pmichaud as soon as I can make sure we have sufficient tools in Parrot to be able to work around it. 15:46
(dynpmc.pl itself will probably disappear from the Parrot repo in July. However, we should not be depending on it, and it's only available in the source directory, not the installed version of Parrot.) 15:47
moritz_ "before christmas" (/me runs for cover)
ruoso pmurias, hmmm... that's an interesting solution 15:49
cspencer perl6: sub :d() { say "foo" }; :d() 15:50
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ":d"␤ expecting "=", subroutine parameters, trait or block␤ at /tmp/4j62UT0koR line 1, column 5␤»
..rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near ":d() { say"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
..elf 26362: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/ge768zQHQo␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: sub :d() { say "foo" }; :d()␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_red...
moritz_ cspencer: don't even think about it :-) 15:51
cspencer moritz_: heh :)
is ':' an illegal character for sub names? 15:52
moritz_ cspencer: there's been a spec change... $stuff ~~ :e now desgurs to $stuff.e irrc
*iirc
but I don't know if Rakudo supports that yet
cspencer ah ok, lemme go look for that...
moritz_ yes, : is not part of an identifier
(it should be in the smart match table in S03) 15:53
patmat hey, installed Rakudo right now, but i have a problem if i start a simple code, it is: 15:56
15:56 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
patmat www.pastie.org/454667 15:56
what is it?
here is the example code: 15:57
www.pastie.org/454668
jnthn replace =$*IN with $*IN.get 15:58
cspencer looks like the code you're running is using the = prefix operator to iterate over $*IN and it's been removed
moritz_ man, pastie.org seems really slow here
patmat thanks for that, it works.. it was an example from a german Perl6 tutorial (perl-6.de) 16:00
seems like its not that actual :P
masak well, that detail changed a couple days ago.
patmat whats $*IN anyway? (i know what it does) 16:01
IN standing for..?
jnthn STDIN
masak patmat: standard input.
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patmat oh, thx 16:01
masak patmat: the $ means 'scalar', and the '*' means 'some kind of global/contextual'.
patmat yup $ i know, right
i wasn't really into Perl5.. but it seems like Perl6 will be great 16:02
masak it is.
patmat just gave it a try after some Ruby/Python experience
Tene rakudo: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say $/.perl 16:03
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«No result object␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;Grammar;ast' pc 86 (src/PCT/Grammar.pir:87)␤»
patmat the syntax looks clean 16:04
masak Tene: that one's RT'd.
Tene moritz_: you said you fixed all of the issues with Match.perl
moritz_ rakudo: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say ~$/
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«say 1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say $/.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«Perl6Scalar->Match␤»
masak whoa. 16:05
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moritz_ Tene: I don't know what's special about it 16:05
pmichaud I do! I do!
masak rakudo: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say $/.chunks.elems
moritz_ rakudo: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say %($/).keys.perl
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«No result object␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;Grammar;ast' pc 86 (src/PCT/Grammar.pir:87)␤»
pmichaud Perl6::Grammar::Top might have difficulty parsing that when there's no action object present.
moritz_ ah 16:06
Tene pmichaud: is that the right way for me to match against the Perl 6 grammar?
pmichaud Tene: fsvo "right"
moritz_ pmichaud: but it does parse
pmichaud I think the "official" line at the moment is that it would be Perl6.parse('say 1')
moritz_ pmichaud: otherwise ~$/ wouldn't reproduce the original string 16:07
pmichaud Perl6::Grammar only exists in Rakudo at the moment.
moritz_: I agree, it parses -- so I'm not entirely sure that's the problem. But it's a likely candidate.
moritz_ rakudo: Perl6::Grammar.parse('say 1', :actions(Any.new)); say $/.perl
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«Method 'parse' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 662 (src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:171)␤»
moritz_ pmichaud: somehow I suspect missing type mappings or so 16:08
pmichaud Rakudo doesn't think that Perl6::Grammar is an instance of Grammar.
moritz_ could it be that it's not a Perl 6 grammar, and doesn't generate Perl 6 Match objects?
ah
pmichaud I wonder how hard it would be to fix that.
Tene pmichaud: look at that paste in #parrot.
pmichaud Might be a pain.
Tene pmichaud: infix:=> is calling .item() on the Match object
which is just .tailcall .ast() 16:09
moritz_ which should go away, no?
pmichaud it should return self. 16:10
But if we do that, lots of other things will break.
Tene moritz_: if we can update all of the other languages first.
pmichaud and actually, it should probably return a reference to self.... but we don't have a way to do that in Parrot.
I wonder how hard it would be to get Perl6::Grammar to be an instance of Grammar. 16:11
perhaps I could just addparent it
literal uhm, how can a package be an instance of anything?
pmichaud Perl6::Grammar is a grammar.
which is a special type of class 16:12
which is a special type of module
which is a special type of package.
16:12 clkao left
pmichaud more properly, I should say "I wonder how hard it would be to get Grammar to be a parent class of Perl6::Grammar" 16:12
literal :)
pmichaud tries something. 16:15
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pmichaud rakudo: say Perl6::Grammar ~~ Grammar; 16:24
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«0␤» 16:25
pmichaud Tene: possible patch coming up
Tene :)
pmichaud oh! I know another "for sure" fix, though. 16:26
> say Perl6::Grammar ~~ Grammar;
1
lambdabot Not in scope: `say'Not in scope: data constructor `Perl6' Not in scope: ...
16:29 payload joined
pmichaud okay, maybe I don't. 16:30
rakudo: say Perl6::Grammar.HOW
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say Perl6::Grammar.HOW.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«Could not locate a method 'PARROT' to invoke on class 'P6metaclass'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 17498 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤» 16:31
patmat so.. a stupid question from me, because it isnt mentioned in the tutorial... 16:33
so
my $variable ... 16:34
why the my? what is it used for?
it just isn't mentioned in my actual german tutoril
pmichaud it declares $variable as being local to the current scope.
patmat tutorial
oh as i thought :))
ok so whats also available instead of my?
masak patmat: there's also "our".
patmat oh ok 16:35
masak patmat: and, for attributes in class declarations, "has".
16:35 jeremiah_ left
[particle] and state 16:36
16:36 hcchien joined
masak and "temp", I guess. 16:36
literal and let? :P 16:37
pmichaud my, our, state, has, constant, augment, and supercede
masak oh, I want "let" :>
pmichaud let and temp are currently named unaries, it appears.
masak any reason for that? 16:38
pmichaud that's just what STD.pm says. I haven't thought about it myself.
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PerlJam wait ... let is still around? 16:38
for some reason I thought it had died
masak no, it's just resting.
literal haha 16:39
masak S04:113
pmichaud From S03:4171 16:40
"Note that C<temp> and C<let> are I<not> variable declarators, because
their effects only take place at runtime. Therefore, they take an ordinary
lvalue object as their argument. See S04 for more details.
"
masak ah, right.
I was reaching the same conclusion from reading S04.
revdiablo How are you guys reading the synopses, btw? I struggle to find the best way every time I want to refer to one. 16:41
[particle] ack from checkout
or use spack here
masak revdiablo: often enough, I open the pod files in vim.
PerlJam revdiablo: vi the pod file from the pugs repo
alester spack?
masak buubot: spack continuation 16:42
buubot masak: S04-control.pod:4 S17-concurrency.pod:1
masak buubot++
16:42 ruoso left
[particle] spack C<let> 16:42
revdiablo Ah, good idea, I'll checkout the Spec somewhere
[particle] buubot: spack C<let>
buubot [particle]: S02-bits.pod:1 S03-operators.pod:1 S04-control.pod:3 S05-regex.pod:2 S12-objects.pod:1
alester That just tickles me. 16:43
[particle] as it should. it rocks.
masak neither C<temp> nor C<let> are in S29. :/ 16:44
16:44 iblechbot left
masak I must have missed that they are functions when I made my laundry list. 16:45
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pmichaud I often read the specs directly from svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec/ 16:47
I have it handily bookmarked in my browser :-) 16:48
masak I read them in Firefox too, but I don't bookmark. instead, when I type "S05", the awesomebar realizes what I want.
16:49 ejs joined
masak Firefox is so good nowadays that other browsers feel slightly quaint to use. 16:49
sbp technically you should refer to them as, e.g., S03:r26362:4171...
masak well, there's often little sense to refer to older ones.
sbp could add the phase of the moon too, as a lunations float 16:50
masak people doing archeology may do their own correlating of date and SVN revision.
OH HAI people from the future doing Perl 6 archeology!
masak waves
sbp quick, spread some disinformation! 16:51
masak they cannot wave back, due to the nature of time.
sbp don't make it easy for them. they don't like that
masak well... we should talk a little about the Pery type. :>
revdiablo sbp: The archaeos I work with do a fine job of making their own lives more difficult, nothing to worry about. =) 16:52
sbp heh, heh
pmichaud "HELLO FROM THE FUTURE, YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT want() IN THE SPEC."
cspencer when did return types from subs start being enforced? :)
pugs_svn r26363 | duff++ | minor typo
jnthn cspencer: couple of weeks back :)
pmichaud this past week, I think.
PerlJam pmichaud: that would *never* happen.
cspencer rakudo: our Int sub foo() { return fail() }; foo()
pmichaud okay, a bit longer. 16:53
revdiablo I wonder if I still have a commit bit on the pugs repo
p6eval rakudo 04ee8d: OUTPUT«Type check failed on return value␤current instr.: 'die' pc 17498 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
masak pmichaud: "DID want() AFTER ALL..."
cspencer should a fail() fail a type check in this case?
[particle] revdiablo: if you don't i can fix that
moritz_ revdiablo: I don't think any of them were revoked
jnthn For upper-case types, I think not...
report as rakudobug
revdiablo I don't have anything to commit, was merely curious 16:54
masak submits rakudobug
[particle] === CREDITS
+ merely curious
masak *lol*
pmichaud Tene: getting Perl6::Grammar.parse( ) to work is going to require a bit of refactoring. I'll go ahead and do it, but it should probably wait until after the release. 16:59
That should also fix the other issues we're seeing.
okay, what's the best way to get a specific spectest revision number into Rakudo's Makefile...? 17:00
Or should I just put a copy of the tests into the tarball directly? 17:04
17:05 jan_ joined
pmichaud Rakudo release tarballs now appear at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/downloads 17:08
17:09 hercynium left
jnthn I guess if we're doing this, we should make sure we put a warning somewhere for people wanting to hack on rakudo telling them not to do it on the tarball copy with the out-of-date tests etc. 17:09
pmichaud likely.
What I'm trying to guard against is the case where someone downloads a tarball a week from now, and "make spectest" fails because the tests have been modified since the time of the release. 17:10
jnthn Also, people who are installing stuff are used to configure/make/make test/make install. I wonder if we should have make test in the tarball actually run the spectests...
masak that should go on the 'how do I submit a bug ticket' page.
pmichaud ooooh, that's the answer.
I should have "make test" run a local copy of the spectests (held in a different dir)
how's this.... 17:11
in a tarball release, there's a directory t/99-spectests that contains the copy of t/spec appropriate for that tarball. 17:12
"make test" runs those tests.
jnthn That works.
pmichaud Perhaps we also have "make spectest" check for t/99-spectests and use that instead of t/spec.
or should "make spectest" always use the latest svn copy? 17:13
or perhaps it warns somehow if t/99-spectests exists.
17:14 ejs left
jnthn *nod* 17:15
Yeah, warning is good.
pmichaud might be easy to miss the warning, though.
masak put the warning in the spectest summary. 17:16
pmichaud that works.
jnthn reviews changelog 17:17
pmichaud yes, we should update CREDITS, ChangeLog, etc.
many thanks to everyone that has been keeping those files up-to-date already.
jnthn aye 17:19
It's been kept quite nicely filled out 17:20
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pmichaud hmmm... handling fudging in t/99-spectest/ takes a bit of work. 17:23
pugs_svn r26364 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] added a test which shows a bug in hash
17:25 rindolf left
jnthn pmichaud: ship a ready-fudged copy? 17:25
pmichaud oh, that's a possibility.
[particle] not if fudging also deals with icu
pmichaud that's true also.
fudging itself doesn't modify the output, it just modifies the test files that get run. 17:26
jnthn I thought icu bits were more int he test harness.
pmichaud well, the harness would still have to be empowered to know what files to skip
moritz_ rakudo: say Positional ~~ Any
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak there was some spec patch I've almost forgotten about... something about getting the character description from a character.
pmichaud currently the harness is (loosely) tied to t/spec
masak goes looking for something like the Char class in the spec...
pmichaud I think I'll give the harness an option to process a directory other than t/spec for spectest.data 17:27
then it can be t/99-spectest without too much difficulty.
17:27 mhsparks left
jnthn rakudo: Positional[Int] ~~ Any 17:27
p6eval rakudo e8f624: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: say Positional[Int] ~~ Any
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn oh hmm 17:28
rakudo: say Positional[Int] ~~ Object
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn rakudo: say Object ~~ Positional[Int]
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«0␤»
pmichaud jnthn: that's because we set Any and Object to always return true, I suspect.
jnthn rakudo: say Any ~~ Positional[Int]
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«0␤»
[particle] pmichaud: why 99- and not release- ?
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah.
masak pmichaud: shouldn't they?
pmichaud [particle]1: so that it matches the 00-parrot and 01-sanity forms
jnthn But it kinda surprises me...
(I thought this was why Positional and Any were sorting to same precedence level.) 17:29
moritz_ if you include a copy of t/spec/, why not as t/spec/?
jnthn rakudo: multi f($x) { 1 }; multi f(@x) { 2 }; f(1); f([1,2])
moritz_ the 'svn up' will simply say 'Skip .'
p6eval rakudo e8f624: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: multi f($x) { 1 }; multi f(@x) { 2 }; say f(1); say f([1,2])
p6eval rakudo e8f624: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
jnthn oh hmm
pmichaud oh, that's possible too.
I was worried about what svn up would do in that case, but you're right, it'll skip. 17:30
masak strange that the above case resolves, but not the one in the RT thread.
jnthn So the RT ticket I responded to actually brings up an issue that's nothing to do with sigil based dispatch...
pmichaud We could even svn-up only if .svn exists.
jnthn masak: Yeah.
moritz_ jnthn: I think it's something else
masak jnthn: then what has it to do with?
[particle] so why not just svn export instead of including?
jnthn rakudo: multi f($x, %h?) { 1 }; multi f(@x) { 2 }; say f(1); say f([1,2]) 17:31
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«1␤Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'f'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(Any $x, Associative.new() %h?)␤:(Positional.new() @x)␤␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 132 (EVAL_16:56)␤»
moritz_ not matching the sigil-implied type is one malus
pmichaud oh, I was planning svn export, yes.
masak finds he cannot make the spec patch because he doesn't grok Unicode levels enough
pmichaud as far as putting a copy of spec in the tarball.
moritz_ and not filling up an optional parameter is also one malus
jnthn Ah, something to do with optional parameters...
pmichaud Anyway, we're in basic agreement that the release tarball should include the corresponding t/spec/ ?
[particle] yes.
jnthn pmichaud: I agree with that, yes.
pmichaud okay. I shall make it so. 17:32
moritz_ did I miss a discussion about that?
Tene re want(): We could make any use of want() return a proxy object from the sub itself that holds a continuation that, when evaluated, invokes the continuation with the type it's being evaluated for!
pmichaud moritz_: about release tarball holding t/spec ?
moritz_ pmichaud: yes
pmichaud Tene: hmmm?
Tene pmichaud: a non-serious suggestion. 17:33
pmichaud Tene: I'm a bit confused. What you describe sounds like the way we're talking about doing contextual returns, yes.
oh.
Tene pmichaud: no, what we're doing is having the sub explicitly return a proxy object.
what I suggested was that calling want() takes a continuation at that point and immediately returns a proxy object from the sub itself.
when that proxy object is evaluated, it invokes the continuation and returns the appropriate context back into where want() was called. 17:34
pmichaud moritz_: we're just now having the discussion.
(there's not been a discussion prior)
moritz_ ah, ok
what's wrong with svn up'ping a specific revision? 17:35
pmichaud I have to store the revision number somewhere.
Also, that would presume that svn.pugscode.org is always available
Tene and an internet connection available
pmichaud (as in, if we move the spectests to a different location at some point...)
moritz_ that's less to store than a checkout ;-)
pmichaud: don't get me wrong, but do you think that early rakudo releases are for eternity? 17:36
pmichaud agreed that including the spectests would increase the size of the tarball.
moritz_: as in, do I think people will use them for long? No.
moritz_ pmichaud: I wouldn't mind if it stopped working in 4 month, because it'll be hopelessly outdated by then
[particle] svn export is of the tests is very small, especially gzipped
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Tene moritz_: we've already had instances of people downloading the tarball, running 'make spectest', and then reporting test failures in here because we've already updated the spectests since the release 17:37
pmichaud t/spec looks like 3MB unzipped on my machine
Tene: I think moritz_ is simply referring to whether the repo is available in 4 months
[particle] pmichaud: export or checkout?
pmichaud particle: export
moritz_ Tene: I know. That's why I said "check out a specific revision" 17:38
pmichaud 3640 spec
moritz_ and I don't see svn.pugscode.org going away soon...
[particle] gone are the days of ascii....
moritz_ if we change something, it'll remain as a read-only mirror
pmichaud right.
440K zipped. 17:39
17:41 jhorwitz joined
pmichaud I can see handling t/spec either way (copy in tarball or checkout of specific revision) -- any votes for/against either of those approaches? 17:41
Tene I vote for copy 17:42
moritz_ 440K is not the world
ok, copy
probably less effort
pmichaud it's about the same effort either way. 17:43
specific revision checkout is slightly more effort, but not significantly so.
17:46 ejs joined
[particle] copy 17:49
pmichaud okay, 3 votes for copy sounds like a trend to me.
moritz++ for reminding me that "svn up" in an exported dir is a no-op. 17:50
that makes it all very simple to manage.
frettled pmichaud: is this the same discussion as yesterday?
pmichaud frettled: possibly.
I had a lot of discussions yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that, and ... Much of it is a blur.
frettled pmichaud: hehe 17:51
17:51 barney joined
pmichaud frettled: we're currently planning to include a copy of the spectests in release tarballs. 17:51
moritz_ at least on IRC we have our automatic note taking bot ;-)
frettled pmichaud: I'm all for it, as long as it's also easy to get updated tests :)
pmichaud frettled: well, if one wants updated tests, they really should be using the git checkout and not release tarballs. 17:52
[particle] agreed.
frettled pmichaud: quite
pmichaud because updated tests on a release tarball are almost certain to have some failures.
although that might be an interesting way to measure progress :-) 17:53
frettled hmm :)
17:53 masak left
frettled I suddenly had a vision of something like popularity-contest (Debian's package popularity thingy), but for spectests. 17:53
moritz_ wishes he had popularity-contest for CPAN modlues 17:54
frettled that, too, but we'll get that when we start using Debian's packaging system for Perl 6 modules.
frettled whistles and stares at nothing in particular. 17:55
Tene I've had a lot of conversations about CPAN lately
and significant problems with the CPAN culture
frettled s/$/s/ 17:56
moritz_ frettled: now your string is unlimited (since you removed the end) ;-)
Tene heh
$ is zero-width match
:P
moritz_ ORLY? 17:57
17:58 jferrero left
frettled I suppose one could ask the suitable bot for that as well. 17:58
moritz_ frettled: we have such a bot in #perlde ;-) 17:59
17:59 szabgab joined
moritz_ frettled: but it only works with literals, not with regexes, after I crafted a backtracking-until-heat-death-of-the-universe regex 17:59
frettled moritz_: ah, those :D 18:00
cspencer if i wanted to look at getting the s:ii/.../ syntax working, where might i start? :) 18:07
frettled This is my fault, isn't it?
pmichaud cspencer: the tricky part is parsing the adverbs.
cspencer pmichaud: is the adverb parsing part not implemented yet? 18:08
pmichaud cspencer: that's correct.
cspencer ok, maybe i'll stick to a somewhat lower hanging fruit then :)
pmichaud although technically in this case they're modifiers.
But still, not yet parsed.
cspencer pmichaud: i'll push out the trig -> setting patch tomorrow after the release, if it's okay with you 18:09
pmichaud cspencer: that sounds good. I had a question about the radians/gradians/degrees switch, though. 18:10
cspencer ok
pmichaud: what question was that? 18:11
pmichaud nm, it's that way in the spec.
I was curious about the check for ^r / ^g / ^d as opposed to the entire term.
but that's indeed what S32 says, so we go with that.
cspencer yeah, i'd just followed the spec myself, though it seemed a little odd
frettled hm 18:12
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cspencer i should create a set of tests to cover the degree/gradian parts too 18:13
pmichaud do we have tests for the trig functions?
heh
cspencer :)
frettled I see what you mean about seeming odd. 18:15
18:16 ejs left
PerlJam sin($n :base('gratuitious')) 18:16
cos($n :base('radiation')) 18:17
cspencer tan($n :base('dodecahedron'))
moritz_ tan($x, :base('dem')) 18:18
frettled cotan($w, :base('mu'))
PerlJam seems like those should have some one-letter adverbs (maybe that's what's intended) 18:19
sin($x :r)
pmichaud no, it's definitely :base<r>
or just 'r' 18:20
sin($x, 'radians')
moritz_ would like :deg :gra(d) :rad
pmichaud sin($x, :base('radians'))
sin($x, :base<radians>)
moritz_ tan $kard's :base<room>;
pmichaud :deg :gra(d) :rad were discussed a few years ago
moritz_ never mind then 18:21
pmichaud and ultimately rejected in favor of :base, I think.
moritz_ all your base are...
frettled I wondered why noone had said that earlier, perhaps we're just too tired of the meme.
sin($x, :base<meme>) 18:22
pmichaud sin($x, :base<are belong to us>)
PerlJam Hmm.
what happens when you actually pass a list like that?
[particle] Failure 18:23
pmichaud ummm... it's a list? ;-)
in this particular case it would end up being an Array ~~ Regex match
moritz_ the regex match stringifies the list, probably
pmichaud and since none of the elements of the list match ^r ^g ^d, we'd end up with the default. 18:24
sin($x, :base<alpha beta gamma delta>) would likely choose gradians, though.
moritz_ which seems kind of scary to me :/
PerlJam me too
frettled ooooh-kaaay
I sense an obfuscated perl 6 contest coming up 18:25
pmichaud or, more precisely, it would choose whichever option was tested first in the code
skids Ah cmon we have to leave some stuff in there for the obfuscated code contests :-)
frettled yes!
18:26 FurnaceBoy left
PerlJam skids: except this would be more like non-deterministic programming :) 18:27
pmichaud cspencer: I'm wondering if !convert-to-base should just be !base, though. 18:28
I guess a longer name is fine.
cspencer sure, i can do that
pmichaud whatever feels righter to you.
cspencer i'm not particularly attached to the name :)
i think i'd picked it because at one point i thought i'd have to have a convert-from-base, but that wasn't the case :) 18:29
18:29 pmurias left
moritz_ maybe for atan/asin/acos etc? 18:30
pmichaud yes, I wondered about those also.
well, if we have a !base then we can have a !debase also :-P
cspencer oh perhaps, lemme go look at those...
pmichaud then we can really debase our scalars :-P
cspencer hah :)
Tene We need make sure Perl remains appealing to the bdsm crowd... 18:31
frettled don't worry 18:33
Tene Do we still have tie? 18:34
;)
moritz_ OH NOEZ, we lost that
but we have binding
Tene and bind() 18:35
pmichaud We do have Tieable, though. :-)
18:35 eternaleye left, ejs joined
skids (and chaining ops) 18:36
wayland76 Fairly simple solution -- Whip.pm :)
pmichaud use Whip;
Tene and we certainly have a lot of subs.
moritz_ lol
skids rename roundrobin to whip :-) 18:37
wayland76 actually, that's not a bad idea :)
skids (can't blame a guy for trying)
Tene And we can play with roles.
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wayland76 whip is much shorter than roundrobin 18:37
and we don't have to tell anyone where we got the name
skids I might add it is also more descriptive.
wayland76 Then again, no-one like my ARGH suggestion either :) 18:38
Tene no doms for our subs, though.
skids I noticed ARGH but not what it was for -- hash of ARGV somehow?
wayland76 Basically %*OPTS
PerlJam wayland76: you've got to admit that it's a crazy rename. 18:39
wayland76 But no-one liked it, although moritz_++ told me that I could have my cake, and let others have theirs too :)
Oh, admitted
Even crazier than the roundrobin -> whip one that was just proposed
At least that has the length argument in its favour
frettled :) 18:40
wayland76 PerlJam: I always use %ARGH in my Getopt scripts, though 18:42
literal wayland76: you mean in Perl 5?
wayland76 literal: Yes; sorry for lack of clarity :)
literal what do you need an %ARGH for there? 18:43
wayland76 Anyway, it's probably my bedtime. It's 4am here
PerlJam wayland76: that's okay, I often use $o rather than $self in my perl 5 OO programs :)
literal I always just call GetOptions() and assign the options straight to lexicals
wayland76 GetOptions(\%ARGH, 'length|l=i');
I usually like the hash better 18:44
(but don't read drug references into that :) )
frettled wayland76: you seem to be confusing "bedtime" with "wakeup call" ;)
wayland76 frettled: Quite possibly. I'm by myself for a couple of weeks, so I'm doing the "sleep when sleepy, eat when hungry" thing 18:45
frettled wayland76: aw, man, I miss those days.
18:46 ejs left, Psyche^ joined
wayland76 Well, I'm also trying to get my whole sleeping schedule turned around again by Sunday, so that I'll be able to get up early, and stay awake until at least 7pm :) 18:46
skids discovers given 1 { when 1 { loop {}}} as a handy make-do for NYI LABEL.last 18:47
wayland76 Btw, someone on #parrot just told the purl bot to open the pod bay doors :)
pugs_svn r26365 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] updated to version 0.043 (not released yet).
wayland76 What's NYI?
Oh I know 18:48
skids Not Yet Implemented
wayland76 Not yet implemented :)
skids: Can you add that to the Perl6 Setting as LABEL.last?
skids IIRC labels are not even parsed yet. 18:49
rakudo: label: for 1..2 { 1; }
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ": for 1..2"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
18:50 M_o_C left
wayland76 std: label: for 1..2 { 1; } 18:51
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤» 18:52
wayland76 masak: label: for 1..2 { 1; }
The "masak" compiler must be offline :)
frettled yup
18:52 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
frettled I was tempted to do a nick change and a quick parody, but couldn't arse myself into it. 18:52
cspencer i don't think that S32-Numeric indicated that the $base param to the trig functions was named, but should i implement it that way none the less? ie funcname(:$base = 'radians') in the signature
pmichaud well, using $base = 'radians' allows it to be specified either positionally or by name. 18:53
wayland76 I don't think the S32 people knew what they were doing much, with the possible exception of the IO stuff
pmichaud (Rakudo doesn't implement that, though, due to some Parrot limitations)
using :$base = 'radians' would mean it could only be accessed by name. 18:54
frettled wayland76: it's still listed as "draft", so I suppose it's open to changes.
wayland76 bed afk & :)
pmichaud s/accessed/specified/
cspencer right, should i leave it as is and wait for a patch that allows positionals to be accessed as named?
pmichaud cspencer: I'd probably follow the spec for now, yes.
wayland76 No, it's listed as draft because it's got holes in it big enough to drive a truck through, and that makes it drafty :)
cspencer ok
frettled wayland76: sideways! 18:55
wayland76 frettled: Feel free to hack away on it, though :)
18:55 kaether joined
frettled kthx 18:55
wayland76 I should mention, I'm the one who created most of the S32 stuff, mostly from bits and pieces from elsewhere, especially S29
kaether Anyone see TimToady online today? 18:56
wayland76 So when I say they didn't know what they were doing, I know what I'm talking about :)
moritz_ @seen TimToady
lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I last heard TimToady speak 2d 1h 22m 27s ago.
wayland76 @seen TimToady
lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I last heard TimToady speak 2d 1h 22m 30s ago.
wayland76 Sorry :)
MrKrueger good night
frettled yes, good night!
kaether Anyone know if he is still in Oslo or at SFO?
wayland76 'night MrKrueger
kaether My wife is at the airport waiting for him =-)
frettled I think TimToady is playing at being tourist.
wayland76 ...or UFO :)
MrKrueger ;) 18:57
kaether We think the wrong day was perhaps communicated...
wayland76 (UFO was supposed to follow SFO, but it's funnier after tourist :) )
pmichaud I'm pretty sure that TimToady is not back in SFO yet.
frettled I thought he was leaving tomorrow. 18:58
18:58 MrKrueger left
wayland76 @traceroute TimToady 18:58
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
pmichaud I know they were planning to spend at least one more day in Oslo sightseeing, and so it's very unlikely they could have made it back to SFO this early.
kaether yeah... I think Glo gave us the wrong day.
pmichaud I left Oslo yesterday morning (Oslo time) and didn't arrive in DFW until yesterday evening (DFW time)
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frettled kaether: I'm pretty sure that tomorrow is the day they're leaving, but I don't recall at which time. 18:59
kaether Ok, sending abort sequence to airport pickup
skids UFO = unleft from oslo :-)
frettled kaether: we could try asking szabgab ...
he's still in Oslo, maybe he's seen TimToady afoot.
or sjn, perhaps.
pmichaud phone, today?
frettled brb after checking with sjn
szabgab no TimToady sighting here 19:00
skids is glad he doesn't get stalked by #perl6
kaether Someone else in the family thought maybe they'd said Thursday, so we're reasonably sure we're a little early now. 19:01
[particle] pmichaud: i was planning on making the phone call this week, i fthere is one
(it has been three weeks since my last call)
pmichaud [particle]: I'm planning on being there also, so there's at least two of us :-)
frettled kaether: sjn confirms Thursday as day of departure
kaether thanks
I <heart> IRC. 19:02
19:02 dukeleto|work left
moritz_ .u heart 19:03
skids Isn't that \C[HEART] or something?
moritz_ rakudo: say "\c[heart]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Unrecognized character name heart at offset 8, found 'h'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "\c[black heart]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Unrecognized character name black heart at offset 8, found 'b'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say "\c[black heart suit]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«♥␤»
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frettled idles, board games at sjn's place. :) 19:04
pmichaud rakudo: say "\c[white heart suit]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«♡␤»
skids which games?
19:05 barney left
Tene where did phenny go? 19:07
Tene harasses sbp
sbp good question! 19:08
19:08 phenny joined
Tene .u heart 19:08
phenny U+2766 FLORAL HEART (❦)
Tene .u heart suit
phenny U+2661 WHITE HEART SUIT (♡)
Tene .u umbrella 19:09
phenny U+2602 UMBRELLA (☂)
Tene rakudo: say "\c[umbrella]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«☂␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say "\c[umbrella]".ord 19:11
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«9730␤»
Tene rakudo: say "\c[umbrella]".ord.fmt('%x') 19:12
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«2602␤»
Tene pmichaud: where can I see the \c stuff implemented? 19:14
pmichaud Tene: I just ask ICU for the information.
The code for that is in src/pmc/codestring.pmc 19:15
the "codename_to_ord" method, iirc
Tene charname
pmichaud yes, charname.
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ascent_ moritz_,pmichaud: RT #64868 - patch ready. 20:00
pmichaud ascent_: excllent. I'll look at the patch a bit later. It seems to do a fair bit of refactoring, so I may wait to apply after the relese. 20:02
*release
moritz_ ascent_+++ 20:03
ascent_++ actually ;-)
ascent_ :)
20:16 jhorwitz left, LadyLunacy joined
moritz_ rakudo: my $möh = 3; say $möh; 20:17
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected USTRINGC, expecting STRINGC ('unicode:"$m\x{f6}h"')␤ in file 'EVAL_17' line 44␤Lexical '$möh' not found␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 71 (EVAL_17:47)␤»
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payload hiho is there a recording of the talk of larry? sipb.mit.edu/projects/talks/2009/larry_wall/ 20:32
moritz_ payload: I don't know, but on google video you'll find a tech talk which was quite similar, in big parts 20:34
20:35 davidad left
PerlJam payload: there was supposed to have been a video available somewhere, but I don't know where. 20:35
payload: you can find an older version of that talk online though.
payload thx PerlJam und danke moritz_ www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzIWdJVP-wo 20:37
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wollmers I wonder if the specs allow insignificant white-space in literals, e.g like say "\x[ c4, 20, c4 ]"; 20:58
masak std: say "\x[ c4, 20, c4 ]"; 20:59
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤»
masak rakudo: say "\x[ c4, 20, c4 ]";
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Invalid digit in \x[...], \o[...], or \c[...] at offset 19, found ' '␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
masak wollmers: opinions differ. :)
masak submits rakudobug
21:01 rblasch joined
pmichaud I think the whitespace is intended to be allowed, yes. 21:02
rakudo: say "\x[c4, 20, c4 ]"
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Invalid digit in \x[...], \o[...], or \c[...] at offset 18, found ' '␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
21:04 pmurias joined, pmurias left
Tene pmichaud: why does Failure print to stderr instead of throwing a warning? 21:04
pmichaud Because at the time Failure was implemented, throwing a warning wasn't available.
Tene Can I fix it? 21:05
pmichaud I'm not sure it should be a warning. It may need to be something more severe.
And it may not be the same for all Failures.
Beyond that, Failure really needs to become a role.
If you want to set things so that Failure objects simply throw their associated exception, I can probably agree to that. 21:06
21:07 rblasch1 left
pmichaud I'd prefer the change to wait until after the release, though. 21:07
Tene for now, should I set severity to warning so they auto-resume?
PerlJam rules can't yet be parameterized can they?
Tene the motivation to get it in an exception is so you can catch it.
pmichaud setting severity to warning is probably okay. 21:08
But I'd also like a note in the code that says "we're likely to refactor all of this into a Role"
PerlJam: no, we don't have parameters on rules yet. 21:09
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wollmers std: say "\c[ SPACE, SPACE ]"; 21:12
Tene Yay, segfault! 21:13
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤»
Tene No time now to dig into it... nm on that exception
wollmers rakudo: say "\c[ SPACE, SPACE ]";
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Unrecognized character name SPACE at offset 16, found 'S'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
moritz_ std: say "\c[foobar]"
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤»
moritz_ STD.pm doesn't do any validation of character names 21:14
wollmers STD.pm allows white-space
21:14 masak left
wollmers rakudo: say "\c[SPACE, SPACE]"; 21:15
p6eval rakudo 5c8015: OUTPUT« ␤»
21:15 maja_ joined
pmichaud interesting. 21:15
wollmers moritz: got the difference?
moritz_ wollmers: yes, I thought it was s/SPACE/BLANK/ that was wrong
wollmers: I never remember which is the new and which is the old name 21:16
21:17 hirschnase left
wollmers moritz: unicode.org says 'SPACE' 21:19
moritz_ I should probably believe them ;-)
wollmers STD.pm allows white-space around code points. 21:21
moritz_ wollmers: please file a bug report (mail:rakudobug@perl.org)
wollmers std: say "\c[ DOT ABOVE , SPACE ]"; 21:22
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤»
literal std: say "\c[OH MY GOD UNICODE]";
p6eval std 26365: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 35m␤»
wollmers moritz: ok, tomorrow. Specs could also be more precise. 21:23
moritz_ wollmers: feel free to clarify them ;-) 21:24
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pugs_svn r26366 | moritz++ | [t/spec] simplify unicode.t a bit 21:45
r26367 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix unicode.t, and fudge for Rakudo
pmichaud moritz_: is that fudging based on your local Rakudo? 21:46
or based on the current head.
?
moritz_ pmichaud: rakudo master + svn HEAD
pmichaud: but it's not in t/spectest.data
pmichaud okay.
that works for me.
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ingy move his irsii #perl6 window to #6 22:25
pmichaud: who started this channel?
22:33 ispy_ joined 22:40 nihiliad left 22:41 rblasch left
Tene ingy: chanserv says audrey2, 2005 22:43
22:54 Limbic_Region joined, payload left, payload joined 22:55 JarJarBinks joined
ingy Tene: it was me actually :) 23:02
I invited audrey
she prolly registered it
Tene :)
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LylePerl rakudo: $*CWD.say 23:32
p6eval rakudo 5c1952: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
23:34 rblasch1 left, LylePerl left 23:38 lumi left 23:42 justatheory left 23:44 bacek_ joined 23:55 fridim_ left 23:58 skids joined, frew|wor2 joined

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